Beating the Book: Spanky

last podcast, the Tennis Betting Masterclass with Dan Weston. Today, I continue what has really been a treat during this surreal time, a series of profiles of not just professional betters, but all kinds of people who inhabit this industry of ours, from Alan Boston to Rufus Peabody, Alan Dakinson, Captain Jack Andrews, Dr Bob Ray Marino from Bookmaker. I think I got everybody and there maybe I left somebody out, but I

just appreciate it. So grateful for the time that everybody has so generously given and the insights that have been provided today on the show. Oh Spanky, who definitely inhabits a unique place in the sports betting ecosystem. Spanky was kind enough to sit down for over an hour when you include commercials, won't be quite that long here, but over an hour with me to talk about his experience, what shaped him as a better and just how unique

his entire approaches. I think you'll find an insightful lots of reaction to this one. At first aired on the Numbers Game at Visa. If you haven't had a chance, enjoy it right here, right now on the Beating the Book podcast, Spanky, It's a numbers game with your host, Jil Alexander untold juniors to believe in Adam Lives. It is the Numbers Game right here at Visa, the Vegas Dads and Information Network. Good morning to you Serious x M Channel two O four, Visa dot Com, the Visa Apps,

Fobo slaying at Game Plus. Right here at the Sports Fitting Network, it is Gil Alexander, Live in the Bay, Live at San Francisco. Hope you stay It's safe. I hope you're staying well for the balance of the show today. It's a continuation of what I've tried to do during this pandemic, because, honestly, if not now when getting to profile um some of the people that interest me in this business, some legends, some modern day guys who have

a place in the sports betting ecosystem. Rufus Peabody, Captain Jack Andrews, Allen Boston Bob Stole. Last week Ray Marino from Bookmaker was on. So this has been an absolute pleasure to do this, trying to make lemonade out of lemons here during the strange time in our lives. Today that series continues, and I talked about the sports betting ecosystem. He definitely has a unique spot in the sports betting ecosystem for reasons that will become a parent as we

have our discussion today, Uh, not without controversy. We'll get into some of that as well. Uh. And he goes by the name of Spanky. Spanky from somewhere in New Jersey. There, Spanky, thank you so much for doing this, Thanks for being on the show. Great to see you man there you are, Thanks for having me to go there. I am. How you doing, brother, I'm doing very well. Man. Let's start as I do with uh with everybody. Well, first of all, I just called you Spanky. Obviously that's not the name

of your birth certificate. How did you get that name? Spanky? You know, so growing up, my mother was a big fan of Little rascals, and um, I was kind of always getting into trouble. So she just decided, you know, I kind of called me spanking, and then that was my password, um, when I was betting all these years offshore. So when ever i'd call in the sports book, you know, my six to three spanky, one one six spanky. So then they, you know, guys would just say, hey, what

do you need spanking? And then it just stuck where people just started, uh just called me by my password, and um, you know it's stuck since. Yeah, I I thought it would have some little rascals origin originally. So let's start. Let's start as we do with everybody here. Uh, your first First of all, where'd you grow up, your first experiences, uh with betting, How that inspired you, how that shaped you? Let's start at the beginning. Yeah, so you know I went, I grew up in Jersey City,

New Jersey. Um, and uh, you know I always liked sports growing up. I was always a big fan. Um when it comes to betting. I would you know, play paul A cards, um and you know the football tickets and um, I would run Parley cards for a bookmaker out of Hoboken for a little bit. So um. And you know, you know you start learning kind of early on that it's it's so much better to be the house and that kind of business. Um, so you know, I realized that, you know a very few people went

on these parlor a cards, you know. The bookmaker then and Hoboken would say, let's not give you a cut. You just helped me distribute these cards. So I was helping with that for a little bit through high school and a little bit into college. Um. You know, I went to Ruget University, and um, I received the bachelors in finance and computer science. So um, you know, during my time in college, I was again, I was fascinated by gambling in general. I always wanted to kind of

like beat the game. So I'd read a lot of blackjack books, a lot of poker books, and but you know, sports betting was always like my first love and it's something that I just you know, up until then, I couldn't beat. So I was always wondering how could I beat it? And I was taking this class in college.

It was called Internet Technologies, where um, you uh, you know, you were able to One of the projects in the class was You're able to go to a website and you're able to parse data and part the hteam on source code from that data. So I was able to do that. I learned these things, I you know, using Java on Perl and UM. I used these technologies and I said, hey, wait a minute, maybe I could apply this to the sports books and I could maybe part

their lines and UM and start looking for discrepancies. Around that time, there was a book that came out in the h by It's called A Complete Book of Sports Betting by Jack Moore, and it was a different take

on sports betting, on how to beat sports betting. Instead of you know which every other book will talk about handicapping or making numbers and power ratings and everything, this book introduced a method called the blindfold method, which essentially was a way to be able to look for different line discrepancies, different discrepancies and numbers and um, and to be able to kind of bet the outlier UM and uh.

So I was able to say, okay, maybe I can program that because this book was still one lines out there. So you know, Jack Moore and his book will talk about corn a nine line service, you know what I mean, crazy stuff like this, but the print, the underlying principle want to be able to look for discrepancies. So I said, maybe, um, I can write some code of the stuff that I

just learned in my class. I think it's you know, it's always great to be able to apply directly what you learn in school um to uh to you know, everyday life. And I started doing that and I saw how how off some of these bookmakers were, and um, you know, through my junior senior year of college. Then I started, you know, just betting a little bit, you know, betting betting, and I started saying, Wow, this thing could actually work. But I wasn't, um, you know, ready to

go full force and say that's it. This is gonna be my career. Um. So that was all through college. You I'm going to get into maybe after I graduated and where I started. Yeah, when you when you got your job out of college, where was it? And then how did your what you just described in your head about sports betting excuse me, sort of overtake what you were doing in your day job. Yeah. So, um, you know, I uh, in my day job, I I worked at Deutsche Bank, um, right on Wall Street and and and

it was great, you know what I mean. I was. I was again, I had that unique computer science and finance degree, so to be able to work in the financial world as an I T guy. I kind of understood things, and I I knew exactly what I was coding. So this was you know, it was it was. It was a great position and I learned a lot. And and from that though, I was always still betting sports

on the side using this program. I kept fine tuning this program I wrote through the last end of college and then after graduation, and then it got to the point where in in in two thousand three, which is three I graduated two thousand where I said to myself, I'm like, you know what, I'm making more money on this side than I was at my regular job. So you know, I was just married at the time and just recently married, and I told my wife, I think it's it's time to make the plunge here, um and

and become a professional sports bettor. And you know, I got a lot of a lot of definitely, you know, push back. You know, my family, my mother and all my a lot of like, you know, you know, I mean, we went to college. How are you gonna bet sports for a living? This is this is a pipe dream, This doesn't exist. Um. And then you know, nobody understood though that I wasn't just gonna say I'm gonna bet sports for living without testing it for several years prior.

So UM that that helped me get my start and help I had the basis, had the foundation, and I knew I was going to be successful. I just had to put the work, the time in and um and use a lot of the methods of what I learned in the blindfold method to just look for discrepancies. Talking to spank you by the way, right here in a numbers game at vast in the sports betting networks, Gil Alexander, So part, let me ask you this. Obviously one doesn't

well maybe it's not obvious. One I would assume doesn't have the initial thought, oh, I'm gonna make these systems and beat sports betting that way. I assume for some period of your life you tried, you tried betting sports the old fashioned way, just with your opinion. UM, how did that go? Initially? Just so you know, just like most it went pretty bad. I you know, I in my opinion is I didn't have a good opinion. You know, I used to be a big sports fan. UM. I

used to like sports. I used to watch sports. I enjoyed sports. UM. And you know, just like everybody else. I thought I could just watch a game and then you know, to be able to just look at the game, see what happened in the game, and then you know the next week's games or the next day's games, know what to predict what's gonna happen uh the next day. And um, you know, you learned fast that that's not

a winning formula. So um. And I was always you know, being a computer scientist, it was always important for me to try to create some type of a black box approach, um, to be able to just take opinions out of everything and to be able to just feed in the data and for it to be able to crank out. Hey, listen, this is the best thing now. You know, in the beginning when I was doing is, I was middling, and I was scalping games, and this was an important thing to be a help build my bank roll and to

minimize my risk. So I would look for discrepan season and you know, I would lay five and take seven on the same game and and you know, hope the game landed five or seven for a pushing a win, or land six for a double win. So I was doing that a lot, and I was slowly building my bank roll. And you know, in order to do that, of course, you know, I had to I had to know what every half a point was worth. That was big. So there was a website. I actually checked it out,

um a few months ago. It was called the Logical Approach dot com. And I keep in mind this was um and uh, you know, the Internet was still relatively you know, in its infancy stages, so there wasn't really much places to buy data. So this guy by name of andyus koe or and I don't know how to say his last name, Andy Isco ran this website and Disco, yeah, and Disco ran the Logical Approach dot com. And if you go to that website, it looks the exact same

as it looked back in two thousands. Um, it hasn't changed. And he was one of the few, if and if not the only, that was actually selling data pass past data, online history and you know closing line and and and you know, home away stuff and all this. So I was able to use that data to try and to find out, you know, what half points worth. I remember the college data went back to maybe nine eighty nine

or nine. I remember the NFL data went back to two. Um. I distinctly remember that because you know, a lot of the data I had to clean up. You know, a lot of the NFL data pre pre two point conversion wasn't really applicable, applicable you know, for the new game. The game had changed, and a lot of different numbers were worth a lot of different values. You know, four

on because of the two point conversion. You know, obviously the one would lose value because you know, if a team is down to they're obviously gonna go for two, so they're not gonna kick the extra point, so the one would land a lot less. But then of course you know, if the two would be worth more, the five would be worth more, and of course the three would be worth more because if they convert the two point conversion, that's a higher chance of overtime, etcetera, etcetera.

So these are things that you know, you kind of I was able to try to uh extract that and know what every half point it was worth, and know what a profitable middle was. And that was the biggest thing for me to be able to take that approach, and and and and and and and take it from essentially a top down approach um where I'm just looking for nd the discrepancies instead of a bottom up approach where I'm actually trying to create power ratings and create

lines myself. So just to sort of just to sort of summarize what you're saying for because there's a lot of people who are going to be listening here and are not the most sophisticated bears might not catch onto what you're saying. So instead of being, you know, a guy who originates at a guy who handicaps games, you applied concepts that you were first fascinated by, first of all growing up and then obviously in school, but the ones that you really honed in Wall Street and essentially

applied those principle, those trading principles to sports betting. And there's a story that's that's pretty famous. You at Deutsche Bank, you were middling, you were losing juice, as as as middling goes uh and um then one day, of course you hit them, and then you hit another, and you hit another and then you realize, well, I'm onto something

here obviously, um so. And and by the way, what you were just describing to actually hone your craft to figure out the value of what every point uh means I think just on its surface, universally, people will listen to that and they'll be like, oh, that's I mean, that's awesome. How can you how can you not appreciate that.

On the other hands, Banky as you know, uh, that's not without controversy, right, So as you have grown your operation because your operation is vastly larger now than it was then, Uh, you hold this very unique place in the betting ecosystem. And obviously bookmakers they don't like uh, you know what they call uh, what's the term they

use for it again, scraping? What is the term they use is different from what we would call it on our side, But it's the The issue is also not only behind the book because you're you're chasing numbers from their perspective, but originators, people who actually do handicap their stuff. Um, they are not fans of yours because it's not as benign as you you know, just how having this network and box associated with it where you can you know,

spread it out and middle at will uh scalping. By the way, what percentage of your business would you say is scalping? What percentage of your business would you say is actually taking a position based on other opinions. Well we we Initially it was all middling and scalping. Now we're taking positions. Um, but I'm still if I'm heavy on a position and um, and if I want to be able to limit my exposure, I'm definitely gonna be

able to buy back. I have you know, designated cold accounts that are able to help me buy back to help mitigate my risk. Um okay, yeah yeah. What would

you what would you say? What would you say about the criticism levied by originators who are like, all right, um, yeah, that's great and all spanky, but you're essentially taking all of our work and capitalizing on it to such an extent now with your network that it almost becomes this massive, uh massive greed money grab and we're actually the ones doing all the real work. What would you say? Not listen,

you know that there's a negative connotation originator non originator. Um. You know I originate millions of dollars annually, so that you know this whole originator thing, it means nothing to me. Um. The minute somebody places a bet into a market and that market reacts to that, and a bookmaker moves the line that's public information. So I'm just utilizing I know, I um, I've I've found a way and we could discuss this um more in detail, but I found a

way to understand you know early on that UM. You know, you want to work smarter, not harder, UM. And and the way to work smarter is to be able to look for discrepities and find out what's missing UM versus just UM. You know, try to create something from scratch. UM. And again there's a lot of different technologies, a lot of different tools that were built. And you know, the hard the hard work that we've done UM on our

end um is incredible. Uh. You know, you know again I might I've been using Bob betting for soham long and it's one of those things in which you just it's it's it's our operations, like you said, has skilled incredible. We'll we'll flesh that out a little more when we come back. Also want to get in a whole bunch of other stuff with Spanky. How he balances, uh keeps accounts with what he does. I mean, that's an entire

art form in and of itself. Spanky right here exclusively especial edition of a numbers game right here at the Sports Betting Network. Welcome back to a numbers game with Jill Alexander. A numbers game at Vison brought you by man Escaped dot Com. Man Escape dot Com as the tools for your family jewels. You can get off plus free shipping with the code V sent at man escape

dot com. That's off at man escaped dot Com with promo code v S. I n saw the UH Shark Tank rerun last night where both Mark Cuban and Lorie Grenier actually buy in to invest in man Escaped, so that was interesting to see yesterday. It is Gial Alexander live in San Francisco. Spanky kind enough to join us for most of the show here today Chris Andrews and

Paul Carr coming up later. I want to give you a chance here, Snakey, to flesh out what we're talking about before the break um for those who missed it, again talking about Spanky's network and the notion of originators UH taking issue with it, and you know, I would sort of add on to that and you can address

it all at once. I guess do you ever, do you ever have moments where you have any doubt about what it is that's doing any scruples about it, I guess, and the other thing, you know, and this is sort of a random thought, and I hope you I'm not trying to be flippant with this, but I always think about if we were back years however, far back in time, and you did this, then, like if there was an old if those were old school wise guys, right or

mob guys, like, how that would fly in a different era? Also, yeah, you know, so just kind of explain a little bit more. You know, there's two ways to make money in this business. There's a top down approach and the bottom up approach. Um. A bottom up approach essentially is gonna try to determine what to bet. You know, what teams to bet on. You create a handicap, you create power ratings, you crank out a number and and and then you know you're

able to execute right the top down. Not only you know, not only do you have to know what to bet in in sports betting, you have to win tibet and how to bet. And this is where you know, where where we believe we're we become experts on so what tibet becomes. You know, we're able to analyze this information and and we kind of are able to analyze line moves and then we know how to bet and when

the bet. How to bet meaning um, you know, to be able to get down a significant amount of money in a short period of time, um, using automated betting tools and whatnot, and when tibet, knowing how to time the market, knowing exactly when I could come in at the peak if I'm gonna let's just say, you know, take a dog and a line is seven, but I feel as if I could get a seven and a half knowing when to wait, to be able to see when that line will will will will peak. And that's

just an art. That's just something you learn. Um. With respect to uh, to anybody having taking issue with what I do, again, all the stuff I use is public information. Um. You know, we're always trying to find the information and some of it's not so public just to be honest, you know what I mean, Like they're there. You know,

it's a lot of hard work. When I was coming up in a business, you know, we would call different schools and and and and and you know, try to talk to school newspapers or try to call athletic departments and try to find out. You know, there was times which we've even you know, piped into the coaches themselves. You know how it's practiced today, UM again trying to beat the market, trying to find out things that the

market doesn't know. And and this is where where our specialty is injury information, things that that are that are not reflected in the current line. It's so much better and so much easier, in my opinion, to be able to know, you know, to be able to find out what's missing, UM, then to create something from scratch, UM, finding out what's the missing piece of the puzzle. UM. Any bookmaker that ever has any any issue, UM would say, hey, spank you know you don't want originate numbers, you know.

So these are not bookmakers. These are dressmakers. You know, because now we're getting into the why of somebody's betting. UM. You know, a bookmaker, you hang a number to take a hit. The numbers there, it's open for everybody. Why I'm betting, you know, the New York Giants plus seven? You know that's just because you know, I believe it could be because I believe the line is going down to five, or it could be because you know, I like the letters N y g or maybe seven is

my lucky number. You know what I mean? It has nothing that there is no such thing as why in this business everything is boom. I'm just gonna bet, you book the bet and let's it. You move on. So anybody that takes issue to originate or non originator, these are not bookmakers. This is again I learned again with with with that Jack Moore book that you're trying to be able to get down at the best priced and they're trying to beat the closing line, and you're trying

to get down as much as possible. Handicappers, most of these handicappers, just to be a good handicapper means nothing if you can't get down, um, because all these bottom up guys they could, you could create great numbers. But what good is it if you can't bet, if you don't know when a time your bet, if you don't know how to get down significantly where for me, I'm

able to be able to extract the information. But I know how to bet and win to bet, and I know how to time the market to be able to get the best of the number and to be able to to maximize my urn. Yeah, and and I mean there's so many much of that that I want to follow up on, you know, because they again, for the common person sitting here, you are one of a kind. I don't believe that anyone can really duplicate your operation, and in many respects that might make you, in again

a controversial way, maybe more powerful than anybody. Will droll down into that, and again we'll get into the whole notion of the art of what you do. Balancing accounts, um, not getting banned, um. All fascinating stuff from Spanky right here in the numbers game at base in these Sports Betting Network, Welcome back to a numbers game with Jil Alexander. It is Gael Alexander right here on a numbers game

at decent Spanky my guest today on the show. And let me just stay in advance making in case you were sort of getting this in your head, Like I absolutely I am convinced that if there were no you, someone else would fill this role in the ecosystem, right Like, so I completely get that it just happens to be you, and that's why we're talking to you, because you're the guy who devoted your your life to this. But I totally get that this that this role would exist in

the ecosystem. People can debate how much they like or don't like that rule. But what about my two questions before the commercial? One could anyone like if anyone today started out and they're like, you know what, I love this spanky dude. I love exactly what he does. I'm going to set out to to do exactly what he does. First of all, whether your advice would be to tell them to even bother trying or out as another story?

First of all, could they duplicated? Do you think? And secondly, and I said this before the break and and no hyperbole here when I asked this, but could you make the case that because you operate in the manner you do and have the network that you do, that you wield more power in sports betting, at least this side of the world, uh, in sports betting markets than anyone else. You know, Uh, you know that. I don't even know

what when you say power, it's just what happens. Is I just you know, I look at things more from a technology standpoint, and I've always looked at it that way. Taking this top down approach um will be able to stand the test of time. And I kind of had that foresight early on, because a lot of these you know, quote unquote originators, handicappers, a lot of them fall by the wayside. You know, even many that have come on your show, UM, you know, have gone broke, have gone

busto tapioca, um, where they're no longer relevant. They need free roles to be able to support them. UM. For me, you know, I've always stayed relevant. I've always you know, tried to be h on and tried to stay on top because my my model, my system is designed to be able to indirectly have the world's best handicappers work for me UM by analyzing line moves. You know, the

best bookmakers in the world don't necessarily make the best numbers. UM. However, they have their customers, and they're able to utilize that information from their customers to be able to put themselves in a situation to hang a price, to be able to bring ourbers and scalpers and middlers, to be able to give themselves a position that is beneficial to them. UM, to be on the you know, same side as the sharps. As they say, UM, we're the same thing. You know.

I put myself in a position where I'm analyzing these line moves to be on the same side as the sharps, and the market is going to determine who the sharp guys are. Um. You know, being sharp is not you know, being a sharp handicapper or being an originator. UM. A lot of very few are like Billy Walters that have stood the test of time over decades and decades. Many of these guys, you know, they're great, but then a lot of them fizzle out. UM. So so if somebody

wants to do what I do, it's definitely it's it's hard. Um. But if you do get successful at it, um, it's it's a system that will last, you know, as long as you have the proper technology and the proper connections. UM. And again, I've been in Costa Rica fifteen sixteen times. I know every bookmaker that they're any relevant bookmaker, either directly or indirectly, they all know who I am. UM. And this took years and years to develop. Um. It

just doesn't happen. And and you know, I don't just walk up to a door and say, hey, I'm spanky. You want to be friends, you want to talk, maybe do some business snow, you know, but the word of mouth has got around and my reputation was built organically,

not using social media none of that. Um, anybody that's who's who in the business knows who I am based on my work and and and based on on what I've produced, um, you know, and bookmakers themselves will be able to tell you because I can't really comment if I'm good or not or anything like that. But I think the bookmakers themselves will be able to comment, um on on how good or are are, you know, because they see my work. They're in the weeds every day,

so they know, you know, what I can produce. We've we've we've probably barked up that tree as far as we can here, spegan, let me move on to some other stuff about your operations specifically, because this I imagine on a day to day basis non pandemic times, but in a normal sports calendar, is what you deal with every day, and it must be fascinating to to observe. Uh maybe you're so close to the sun that it's not fascinating wouldn't be the word you would use, but

obviously challenge. And it's about really, you know, line shopping and amounts at its core. So the earlier you bet, and again you have this network of hundreds of not thousands of outs. The earlier you bet, the better the price you're gonna get, but the less you're gonna be able to get down. Uh. The later you bet, the worst the price you're going to get, but the more you can get down. So I imagine that's an art

form to begin with. And then after that, I guess it becomes the balance of not getting banned from let's say some of the more outlying outs, maybe not the big names that people would know from off shore. Um, so is that an accurate assessment? Like those are the two big struggles of your vocation? Ye hit the nail on the head, gil um you know. And again this is everything I see speak is from a professional standpoint.

So a lot of the listeners, if you're recreational, um, you know, thinking about not getting banned or thinking about being able to maximize, um, the amount you get down probably doesn't apply to most. So just you know, again keep in mind this is just from a professional standpoint. Um. Yeah, but it's a fine line you have to walk, like you said, to be able to maximize the best price and the amount you get down. So this is this

is very important. You definitely definitely want to work on that and um and at the same time you also want to be able to UM two not only get the best price and get down, but like you said, not get banned and UM. You know a lot of guys, you know a lot of guys they bet props where they bet these exotic things. You know, I have my own prop guy that does a lot of these props, but it's hard to be able to do that and

it will stick out like a sore thumb. So we mix a lot of that prop stuff in with legitimate you know, NFL work and stuff because the bookmaker loves to see NFL work. If you bet the NFL, the bookmakers relieved because the NFL, in my opinion, is close to being as unbeatable as any sport out there. So you know, when a bookmaker sees that, it kind of gives you I don't want to say cover, but it kind of gives you. You know, it is kind of

a camouflage cover to be able to last longer. Um, and for them to give you, be able to give you a longer leash, to be able to get down on the stuff that you have a bigger edge on that's a very I I hope people seized on that. Again, the more casual better seized on that Spanky can last longer at certain outs if they see him having NFL action. That should be just sort of a betting one oh one thing about NFL betting, as Roxy, the Great Roxy Roxborough said to be many years ago when Chrissie he

had I had at dinner at that famous Pierros. He's like Gil, nobody beats the NFL. Nobody. And what he meant was not over the course of the week, a month, or a year, but long term pre flop ats. We're talking nobody beats the NFL. So that actually is a employ is not the right word, but a method by which Spanky is able to have longer staying power at some of these outs. That's a relatable message for any level better. We'll come back. I want to ask you

a whole bunch of questions. Among them, Spank, Uh, do you really not know who Andrew luck is? You wear this on your sleeve about not knowing who any of these athletes are. We'll get into that. Uh. And is that a good look. We'll talk to Spanky about that on the other side right here in the numbers game and Visa these sports betting network. Welcome back to a numbers game with Gil Alexander. Don't forget. Now is the time to become a Vicent Plus subscriber. It is free.

You won't have to decide what you want to do, pay or cancel until at least one of the major sports returns. Just go to Visa dot com slash subscribe to sign up. That's Visa dot Com slash subscribe to sign up. It is a numbers game, Gil Alexander and Spanky uh in the house today on the show I mentioned this also edited to the brake. Spanky and I always found this fascinating because I used to, Uh, I

know other handicappers. Who I know handicappers, I should say, who like to wear it on their sleeve that like, oh, I don't watch games. I just I make my pick and then I see what happens. And I always tell those people like, I'm not wired that way, Like I'm actually watching games and stuff. You do this thing where you're like, I don't even know who Andrew luck is. I remember when you started your podcast. By the way, what's the name of your podcast? For everybody's make. The

podcast is called Be Better Betters. UM. It's a podcast be Be Better Betters. It's a podcast where I, I, you know, give my take his life as a professional better and I also interview people I respecting the business, bookmakers and other professional betters. UM. It's available where podcasts are found. We're all podcasts are fat. I see you're pro doing that already. UM, and yeah, it's great stuff

that you do. Great stuff on the podcast. But like I remember when you were at one point you were solstening listening to podcasts, and you're like, the criteria is I don't want to hear about any players on any team. So like you famously, I think Andrew Luck was one of the guys you brought up where you're like, I don't even know who Andrew Luck is. And I, first of all, I refused to believe that was just first of all, I get that you don't know as many

players as other people. Do you just take that approach? What did you say that? Because you just want to convey that the way that you win at betting is by the methods we've described earlier on this show and not by traditional handicapping. UM. And and why I guess someone I'm asking is why do you feel the need to to stress that. Um, well it's a fact, um, so to be able to you know this is these

are just facts. I wouldn't lie and if you could believe me or not, you know, Um, I I know several players names, but I don't know other players names. And again I've been out of the loop for a while. Um, you know the day to day operations. Um. You know, I have a whole team of guys that run in my office now, so UM, I just I I'm out of touch. Um. And the whole Andrew Luck thing, my friend Captain Jack texted me told me Andrew Luck retired.

And I don't know who that was. And that's that's the God's honest truth, whether you believe it or not. I'm sorry to laugh. I just probably that ridiculous, yes, and I and I'm you know, UM, it's just one of those things, like you know, this show is called the Numbers Game. It's not a name game. So everything is based on numbers. Um. You know, I bet teams. You know, there's a teams in college basketball, I U p U I and I p f W. I don't

even know what these letters stand for. Uh, you know, And I've been betting, you know, probably hundreds of thousands over the years on these teams or against them over the several years. And I don't even know what these games where they are located, what these teams stand for. It's again, it's not about I just know that what a half point is worth, what the prices um with

respect to players and watching games. You know, I've sat in sports books and guys would ask me, they'd give me their spiel and they're tell me, yeah, I think this is gonna happen, because it is. And again it just goes right over my head in one year at the other because I don't know, you know, I don't I can't comment. I can't have an intellectual sports conversation. This is one of the reasons why. And I've never been on any show on Visa except you know just now,

you know, because I can't. I believe, I can't provide any value or I can't have an intellectual sports conversation um with anybody because I don't know sports. You know, I've gotten to the point now where you know, it's sad to say, but I kind of fell out of love with sports. Um it's uh, it's just a business for me. It's just a means to an end and and and I'm just trying to just you know, make as much money as possible and um and be successful,

support my family. And that's it, you know, it's it's um, it's it's you know, you can't really have favorite teams or be fans when you're betting foreign against these teams. And with respect to watching games, you know, with respect to watching games, it's it's it's, you know, the more time if I say the games go off at seven o'clock, you know, if I'm watching a game, that's less time

I'm spent watching lines. Um again. You know, honestly, you know, betting a game live or something, but we don't really do that as much. Um again, We're just watching lines, We're watching numbers and and and that's what it comes down to. That's what it's all about. You know. I could talk about you know, whether and I think it

is important in the whole context of sports betting. A lot of people will spend time, a lot of media spends time on you know, why this team is going to cover the spread or why not, but not too many people spend time on you know, would you rather you know, lay seven plus ten or minus six and a half minus oh five on an NFL game? You know, so these things? Yeah, and that's no, that's exactly why I ask, right, I expected that answer, and and you're right, what while it is a numbers game, I do know

names as well though, That's why I was asking. But that's the answer I respected, I expected because I know that I think that needs to be hammered home. Uh And beyond what you do, there's a there's a broader lesson in that and being a successful sports better You will maximize your chances to be successful if you think of it from a number standpoint rather than teams and players,

for sure. But let me ask you that since you brought it up about you know, because because I do a show, right, we we do ten hours I do ten hours of this every week uh plus podcast on the subject of sports betting, and it is you know, you come from this very unique perspective, as we've outlined here,

and so it's very what you said is very honest. Right, You've never been on a show because you don't know specifically what you could provide to the audience, and I think you know that's a subject that I've brought up before on a numbers game at Visa. It's a constant balance right between how can I do something smart while also being entertaining? Right, I could, I could do entertainment, and it might not be smart. Right. There's numerous examples

of that. But in sports betting, it's this really fine line between here's authenticity and here's what's actually happening with real professional betters and actually still casting a wide enough net to get people interested. Because you know, you know as well as I do, and you just alluded to it. What you and I are talking about here today is not going to be everybody's cup of tea, right, not gonna be if my goal here today was I'm gonna get the best ratings I've ever had in my life.

Is it a tough conversation for a lot of people because a lot of people can't relate at all to it. Um, But if we are truly going to be authentic, we need to have conversations like this. And so I totally respect what you're saying there. I totally get where you're like, I don't know, I couldn't talk about teams. I don't know what I could really provide because most people would be like, well, I don't have spanks network, I can't do what he's doing. Um, But every so often there's

a nugget in there that people can latch onto. UM. I don't know if there's a question in there other than I get that. No, absolutely, And it's just like you know, just again, instead of analyzing teams just to know um an analyzing team stats, knowing what every half a point is worth, doing that math, doing that research, and knowing bookmakers tendencies. You know, I think everybody could

latch onto something like that. For example, you know an off shore bookmaker Grande, you know, five minutes to post. It's just like clockwork. They always, if they're ever heavier, if they ever need action on the side, five minutes to post, are always gonna move a number five cents to be able to warn action on the side that they want action on. So you know, just by and knowing that if I see that, they might have the

best number in the world. I know, listen, I'm gonna wait five minutes to post because five minutes of post, I'm I could get a better number. UM and stuff

like that. These are just things in which you know and it doesn't have to do with handicapping, just timing and knowing bookmakers tendencies and knowing how they move and how they react moves and how much they move, you know, especially with auto line movers these days, when when when when bookmaker dot EU when they move a line from three flat the three minus a quarter, that's a big difference. When they moved from the three minus twenty. They respect

of course the guy more that that they're moving. So these things are are so important and they're just not talked about, and like you said, Gil, they're only known by people that are on the front lines, that are in the weeds day in and day out. This is

not the casual uh gamblers problem. Um, The casual gambler likes to just hear about picks and why this team is that and you know, you know this guy is on the road and he has had this rest and all this other stuff where you know all this stuff again, if you I take the principle that if you believe that everything is factored into the line, and then you try to find out what's not in the line, so you know, you assume the market is efficient, but then

look for what's missing and um and even were alluding to,

you know, like wise guys and old bookmakers. You know, there was a lot of these guys used to tell me stories where and I'm pretty sure you heard something like this where they would you know, they would have guys and paper airplane cleaners to be able to get you know, before the internet was around, they'd be able to get newspapers and it flights coming in from l A to New York to be able to get you know, California newspapers or Chicago newspapers and kind of know exactly

what injury status were read the sports section, to be able to know, um um, you know, information that wasn't reflected. And this is the type of stuff that you know, again we used to call schools up. You're always trying to find out information that's not currently present in the number. Yeah, um, I had Ray Marino. I don't know if you heard last week Ray Marino from Bookmaker was on the show. One of his betters or winners. That's what he said

on this show. Another thirteen percent maybe lose juice. The other eight five percent or or thereabouts, uh, just stone cold losers. Um, but yeah, I just wanted to make that that point like, that's that's part of just not only on your side, but even on the sports betting media side. While you balance you know how much to bet at which shops, how early, how late, how to keep those part of the art here is also you know, how much in the weeds can you get before of

the audience tunes out. It's this constant balance. Uh. And to the extent that I can achieve that properly, that I've done my job. But it's a difficult. Uh, it's a difficult balance to have for sure. By the way, before we go to break, do you know where we met Snaky? By the way, someone reminded me of this. I didn't even know. I didn't even know the answer

to this. I thought something else. Oh, I remember us meeting at the when we do the draft Kings was running the sports Spinning Championship or no, I think I met you before then when I was in Vegas, I was betting at the South Point for a week, and I remember you were there with more. Yeah, you know where we met before that? That's where I thought we met.

Two Jason Weingarten reminded me that we met at Sloan years ago, and yet when we were eating in at cafe next to the actual in the hotel itself, and I do recall that anyway, This is one of these things where I'm like, oh, yeah, that was Spanky. Um. But yeah, I didn't put two and two together either. I have more questions to ask, We got more to come. I want to ask you about did you bet the NFL Draft during the pandemic? This is one of these events that I think would cater to the way that

you bet. Maybe you did, Maybe it didn't, because I think there's a size of operation issue in there as well. Um, just sort of rapid fire things about William Hill and others. You're gonna get away unscathed on this show today, Uh, Spanky unique, controversial. UM. Fascinated to have him on the show today. Here on a numbers game at Visa. It's a numbers game with your host Jil Alexander, who believe in analytics. It is our number two of the numbers

game right here at Visa. The sports betting Newick Gil Alexander Serious x M two oh four, Visa dot Com, the Visa app, Fubo Sling Game plus on Down the line. Appreciate. Uh, everybody tuning in. Spanky, my guest, We got it for one more segment here, maybe two, Um, and then Chrissie, Andrews and Paul Carl will join us. Uh. Sparky got

some tweets here, We get tweets at beating the book. Uh, Peter Wattrey, Wow, extremely high level cover conversation about sports betting with Spanky, great questions, A real gift for US recreational bettors to sit back and learn. That's very nice, Peter, thanks to Spank on that low key o g. The Spanky interview is the best thing I've heard on VISA in a while. Nice. Um and Captain Jack, our mutual friend. Captain Jack actually tweeted, uh, he goes here you go, Guil.

The text ex chase between Spanky and I where I told him Andrew Luck retired. The redacted part was a business discussion we were having at the time, But basically there's you on text going who's that and he's talking about Andrew Luck. Oh my goodness. There's one. Uh. Spanky does the work always thinking numbers, twenty four hours a day. No, Uh, that's from Robert Pereghini. Says no life though, meaning your hard worker. I guess what he means there, peaches Spanky

needs to get guilt to the next event. He already has the zip up on to fit in. I guess he's talking about Jersey there. That's my conclusion to that anyway, Um, and on and on. So we appreciate all the feedback at beating the book. Um, and uh, they're all very kind, so thank you to that all. Thanks to Spanky, really generous with your time and your insight. And again, um, controversial. I think we we made that point earlier and uh, you know that needs to be pointed out the reasons why,

and you've addressed that as well. Um, and people can sort of you know, for everybody listening, they're going to judge, for lack of a better term, however, it is that that they want to. Let me ask you this, Spanky, during the pandemic, you've got a you've got a massive operation. So I'm guessing that this is that your answer is

going to have something to do. Uh regarding that, But the NFL draft, it occurs to me you make your hay as a guy, as we've talked about, who looks to get the best of the market, Uh, scalp or arbitrage er. Uh. There's no better example of a single event to me that allows for such opportunity as betting the NFL Draft, which of course was a month ago. Um. I didn't see you chiming in on the draft, so

I assume that you didn't bet. It was that because you disagree with my assessment that it's this really good vehicle or is it just because its not worth it to you either from a limit standpoint or the fact that you have this operation you didn't want to do a one off with it. Yeah, it's the latter. Uh. You know, it's one of those things in which um

we um. You know, we were completely shut down at this point, and um you know, we deal with hundreds of betting partners and we have thousands of accounts, so you know, we we don't really want to establish figures

because again everything's on the credit sides. We settle up on Mondays and whatnot, so we don't need to establish figures with guys just and possibly lose accounts, um for the future, just for you know a little bit of a morsel of something that is advantageous as the NFL props you know, granted, if we were betting baseball already in our accounts, already active, sure we dabble, and you know,

we always dabbled and stuff like that. But given that we're completely shut down, we just felt and it wasn't the time to open back up, just temporarily for something that short term. Um, how about this, let's let's I'll just rapid fire with you here too. Just random thoughts

that sort of come into into thinking here. Uh, if you were younger and you didn't have let's say your family, uh maybe even with a family, would you consider now, as new jurisdictions legalized sports betting, would you consider doing hitt and runs on the new states that legalize that are opening even if you knew you'd be quickly backed off or even shut down entirely. No, you know, the hit and run type thing. Um, you know, I'm at a point right now in which again I can't you know.

You know, there's like a Griffin book for blackjack and advantage players, and if they ever create one for sports betting, I don't know, I'll probably I I believe i'd probably be in something like that. Um, I'm not I'm not the bookmaker. You know, the bookmakers that are in the know that know how to utilize um, guys like me.

You know, I'm the best friend, but most bookmakers they're not a fan of me and and and the hit and run type thing is just not I'd rather come in the front door and be able to have a communication and to be able to you know, have him mutually beneficial relationship, to be able to use beards, and to be able to go in back door, and um, to be able to try to you know, hide my my identity. It's just not one of those things, you know, hit and run. What am I gonna last a day?

Two days a week tops? Um? It just doesn't make sense. Um. You know, I have all these videos on my Twitter feed because you know, I wanted to just show that, you know, a lot of people don't believe that you can get kicked out of sports book and this is such a very common occurrence, you know, for places like a William Hill or or Draft Kings or or other places. This just happens. And I remember, you know, the William Hill guy. I'm like, how do you guys do this?

And and and how how do your customers you know, not complain? He goes, well, nobody ever finds out. And when he told me that, and I knew, go ahead finishing the fish, because I'm I'm teaming to get in there. Fish thought, I'm sorry, go ahead, thank you right here on a numbers game at Viason, the sports betting network. Go ahead, he said, you know, customers never find out, And by then I already had the tape of them kicking me out. And I'm like, that's a shame, because listen,

you know, I uh, you know, customers need to find out. Um, And and it's just one of those things which William Hill has gotten away with using this recreational model. And that's fine, that's the prerogative. But um, the world should know that this is how they operate the world should know that. Hey, listen, if you become successful enough, um, they might be saying, hey, patting on the back, great job.

But if you become good enough and they believe they can't beat you, instead of patting you on the back, they're gonna kick you in the ass. Well, okay, so you know, I wanted to bring it up, but you you obviously beat me to the punch there, and I don't want to necessarily spend the next fifteen minutes. You know, because because we've you know, people know where where most professional betters stand. On William Hill. I've had my own

experience with him. It's pinned to my Twitter at beating the book if anybody wants to listen to it after the show. But it really you you made the point there, and I think it needs to be stressed. Every business has the right to conduct themselves as they want, right, and they clearly have a business model um prior to European influence, certainly after European influence, where they are not

welcoming the action of successful betters. Now they parse that with words, right, they say when people say they kick out winning betters, they respond by saying, we don't kick out winning betters, when really it's about the notion that it's not that you have one, it's that they predict that you will win based on your betting up to that point. But it's not you're not contending with their model. It's just the fact that they don't cop to the fact that they do that, and that they don't cop

to that. And I'm you tell me where I'm wrong with the words here, because I'm sort of filling this in where when they don't cop to that, it becomes almost a predatory thing because all of us who are betting from the most first time better to the most advanced better, you are operated under this tacit covenant that one day, if I get good at this, I'm going

to win, and I can expect to win. But when you, when you behave in a way that isn't honest about the fact that that's not how this is gonna go ultimately, because if you get good, if we think you're gonna be good, we're going to give you the chance. That's really the issue not admitting to that, right, it's not the model. It's not admitting to it. And it's not just not admitting to it guilt, but also denying it

when asked, uh, you know, when asked up front. You know, I I have a video on my Twitter where I asked Joe Asher, plain and simple, I'm like, you know, will you ever try to implore proper risk management that you welcome all customers? And he just says on all that stuff about us kicking people out, that's all fabricated and that's all overblown out of proportion um. You know, again,

you're you're just completely denying it. Um. Where I know people that have had you know, literally ninety beards get kicked out of William Hill and and it's just it's it's it's one of those things. And like you just said, you you you brought up, you hit the nail on the head. It's one thing if if you if you decide to kick out winners, that's your prerogative. But when you when you when you when you don't admitute when I asked about it, Um, that's what it becomes a problem.

That's when you're starting an out lie to the public and and and also to your credit to what you said. You know, every sports better out there, I never met a sports better. It doesn't think they can't win, you know, I don't. You know, it's it's a different form of gambling. Everybody that places a sports bet thinks, to God's guest

best thing, the next best thing to handicapping or predicting sports. Um, just because you know, there's that fallacy where they think if they know sports that they could you know, okay, they could probably beat sports betting. But everybody has that dream, and I think everybody should have that right to dream that dream actually feeds the business. It feeds industry that allows bookmakers to make enough money to pay guys like me. So I want that dream to stay alive, and that

dream should stay alive. But at the same time, um, if that dream is stifled, if if if that dream is not present, then then sports better should know about that, should say hey, listen, why should I give my business to a place that, if I do get good enough, that's gonna kick me in the ass and say hey, you're not welcome. Instead, they should be given their business to two sports books that welcome them irregards you know, uh, irregardless of of whether or not they're gonna win, or

whether or not you know they're sharp or not. You know, that's the thing that you know you kind of want like that circuit south Point. These guys accept customers. God, yeah, no, do you do you believe in? And again I want to move away from them because there's again they have every right to operate however they want. And there are like with everything, not everything is black and white. There are fine people who work. They're just like you know

in any place as well. And I guess what I'm saying just from a from a macro standpoint, you believe that in the end books that don't whatever the book is, that that doesn't welcome and you and you distinguish those books from what you just said, from the circus and the south points of the world that do. But it's actually what you're saying is their model you believe ultimately cost them money because they could actually use that information

from sharp betters. Because here's the thing. If you take this evolution further, and again not talking about any specific sports book here because I want to get away from that, but if you if ultimately you don't use sharp better information from behind the book to sort of help you with Oh, this is information we could use to our advantage. If you eliminate that sect of betters, and then you only have, for lack of a better term here, square

betters or more novice betters. Eventually that those betters will crap out, and then what do you really have left. I know I'm taking that to an almost ridiculous extreme, but it's not that outland. This is it not at all? You know, I've seen it with my own eyes. I've been down a coast street. I've seen some of the world's best and biggest operations. Some of the best bookmakers operate, and these guys understand how to pitch sharps against each other.

You can't just book one sharp. You have to bring them all on. And you have to bring scalpers, middlers, guys in arbitrage to be able to warrant action and to be able to entice people giving your price, to be able to warrant action on the side that you want. So it's a talent, and that's one of those things a lot of people don't want to invest in that talent.

The best analogy I could give is, let's just say, you know, if you live, let's say in a rainy place like Seattle, and and you're having your basement is flooding every day, um and and you know the flood the water is is an analogous to the two sharp betters, and and all this water keeps coming in. So there's

two ways you can handle that. You can hire a bucket brigade and you get a bunch of guys coming in with buckets to be able to just scoop the water out every single time, and that will solve the problem. And that's that's the you know, the William Hill approach. That's the let's just kick the sharps out, or instead you could pay a little bit more money. It's gonna cost you warn in in the short term, but you

pay for money. You hire an engineer to be able to have that water, to be able to change your leveling, and to be able to siphen that water, and to be able to use that water, to be able to water your guard, going to be able to use it in other ways. This is the and and these are are are what the best bookmakers do. They're the engineers. They're able to use that water and to be able to use it accordingly and effectively instead of you know, look at the silver lining and your life gives you lemons.

You make lemon a type thing, so you know, you're able to use those lemons to be able to make something great. And that's the thing. And it's so much more um long. It's a long term approach. And many people are afraid or they don't want to put the time and effort in to be able to solve these things long term. Because guys like cheinical, guys that are you know, that have been successful bookmaker dot you you know, Ray will be the first time to tell you, listen,

we have sharps and they win. But that's okay because we utilize that information and and and and people don't know. And that's a talent. It's an art to be able to utilize that information, to be able to move enough to be able to entice a sharp to take plus four at you know, three pm Eastern, but at seven pm Eastern the line will close five and and and give and that when they when the sharp. When the sharp guy took plus four, the line was three and

a half everywhere. So it's stuff like that. Now you might say, oh, that guy might not be that sharp if he took plus four, um, given the line close five. But that's okay because he believed that, you know what, it's not going to close plus five. So that's the thing. The best bookmakers are the ones that are able to warrant that action. And it's an art form. That is they're slowly dying. And it's a shame that it's dying. Um yeah, And and I mean it's a shame that.

I mean, we'll see rights back. I mean, like you know, that's this is obviously one perspective on it. I mean, their counter would be you know if if if one of them in the room, they might be laughing, right, some European influenced sports book here might be laughing like, trust me, we got this, we know what we're doing. And in some respects we would have to be like, all right, well the proof is in there putting that's it's exploitation. But they got they got it down what

they're doing. Um. What will be interesting is to see how CIRCU goes right in Colorado and beyond, because and again they've been sort of it's sort of been the

comp for them has been the Pinnacle model. I'm not so sure how accurate that is exactly, but it does make sense or I think it is accurate to say that they're perhaps the closest thing, uh in terms of legalized operations, and it will be very interesting to see how profitable they are able to be doing it the way that you describe as the right way, right, because if it's not, let's just say it's not, then you can how till you know, whatever the expression is, toll

whatever it is till the end of the day, and it's not gonna matter, right, So this will be interesting to observe because we only want the best for them, the great people. And uh, but but the proof will

be in the pudding, won't it. No, absolutely, And I think just by having that you know, winners welcome policy, that's that's just a marketing thing that I think that Circle should be utilizing in a lot more um because you know, your recreational business is going to come if they that winners welcome policy, because then they know, listen, this is a sports book that I'm gonna have and no matter, you know, I'm gonna have that dream that

one day I'm gonna be good enough. Again, most are not gonna be, but that dream is still is still alive, and they know they listen, I'm gonna be here. I'm gonna be a customer forever. Um. And it doesn't matter if right now I might be losing better, but one day I might win. So this is something that you know that that that circle can say that no other sports book or very few sports books can actually say, Hey, listen, winners are welcome. Come one, come all. We accept your action.

We don't um uh look at whether or not um that you're winning. And you know we're not gonna be biased on on your type of play. And and again I think marketing, from a marketing standpoint, it should be capitalized. They should capitalize on that because it's a very unique thing. And um and again, Pinnacle just doesn't make great money based on book and all the sharps. You know, Pinnacle, a lot of them. They book a lot of sucker

business because of their winners welcomes policy. So you know, sure they have a lot of sharps, don't get me wrong, but they're still they obviously got a lot of sucker business because of their marketing that listen, come one, come all. They publish articles on how good it is, on how to handicap games, and how to model. You know, they're they're not afraid to give information out there to say listen, come and get us, no problem. And and that's you know,

that's the old school bookmaker. These are the guys when I was first coming in the business, Um, that I've seen and that I you know, the best of the best. You know guys from Arkansas guy, but I name of Mr Green, probably one of the best bookmakers I've ever seen in my life. You know, these guys, you know, hundred thousand our best smoking a cigar and a room in Costa Rica, not even flinching, you know, it just

you know, it might move the line of penny. They understand their customers, they understand how to move numbers, they understand how to warrant action, to attract action, to be able to maximize their earn and um and and and it's an art that, unfortunately we said GIL is dying, but hopefully Circle or others can bring it back. Yeah, because because if not, and this is you know, this has been my rallying cry even since before legalization two

years ago. If you know, the game is not not stacked in favor of the better, but if there's nothing for the better to uh to really bet into that's favorable in terms of pricing, um, then the very thing that they're trying to do get people not to bet an illegal markets, to not to bet offshore, is going to be the very thing that they accomplish to get people to have a better betting experience. And the only

place to find that will be offshore. So it's this fascinating thing to observe, right absolutely, and and and you know, let's beyond the there is no professional sports better in the world today that it's just betting domestically. Um, It just it just doesn't happen that there's you can't the app it cannot the domestic sports books, legal sports books cannot fill that appetite. You have to batt off shorn and able to and in Asia to be able to get down um enough to make it worth your while. UM.

You know you kind of wish that wasn't the case. UM, but it is the case, and it's a fact, and I don't see changing anytime soon. UM. But hopefully guys that come up, you know, like Circa and others, UM can help UM bring that you know, that American beast in you know, American raised bookmaking mentality, not a European based bookmaking mentality. Hopefully that can start, you know, propagating through the nation and um, and hopefully we can see

an influx of of bookmakers not dressmakers. Listen, speky Uh, I've got thirty more questions, but they'll have to wait for another time. I really appreciate it, and I hope, you know, the main thing about these profiles that I wanna, you know, get across is I want to be able to educate, maybe inspire some folks who are listening, like oh wow, like I really this guy really resonates with me. Or maybe it's the opposite. Maybe there are people listening who are like, man, I hate this, dude, this is

something that I would never want to do. That's not in my d n A. But what I what I hope because because trust me, I'll get from this. I'll get heat from all kinds of different directions. Right Like, it's never you can never please everybody. Um, but I really appreciate you stepping forth and and some of those things early on here are not the easiest to discuss because as you and I have talked elsewhere, I come from a background where I like to originate, and so

I gravitate towards that side of thinking as well. And there's gonna be a camp that understands that it's part of the ecosystem and is going to just be accepted of it. And there's gonna be a camp that's like, no, screw that guy. He's nothing but uh, you know, he's nothing but a leash. He's nothing but a guy who's who's going on our work. But I really appreciate you being honest and forthright about it and and stepping into it and talking with us, because I think you've done

a service to uh many out there who are listening. Absolutely, and again, the people that hate on me or unfortunately guys that are not as successful. You know, the most successful guys don't hate on me on They understand that this is what I do. And I'm just like everybody else. I'm a nice guy trying to earn UM and I work just as hard as anybody else, if not harder. Um.

You know. Again, I used my tools and everything, and I became successful and and it's been a pleasure of This business has been great to me and and I wouldn't trade it from me in the world. Thanks so much for having me Jo, Spanky, Thank you appreciate it. Man. We'll do it again, Spanky right here on a numbers game at Visa and the Sports Betting Network. We'll do more of these next week. Joe Peter fascinating Wall Street background, UH and flirtation with all kinds of things in the

sports that antate and thin contading. Did hear