Understanding Mules with Lloyd Hawley

and lightweight. The rifle comes equipped with the Savage ACUEFETE technology, so that means it's adjustable, and it comes in a variety of calibers, the three O eight, the two seventy twenty eight nozzler, the eight actually improved, the thirty at six and much more. If you want to find out more information about the one ten Ultra Light, visit Savage arms dot com. My name is Clay Nukeleman. I'm the

host of the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. I'll also be your host into the world of hunting the icon of the North American Wilderness Fair. We'll talk about tactics, gear conservation, but will also bring you into some of the wildest country on the planet chasing back. As many of you would know, I love using mules to get into the

back country. We've had a lot of We do a lot of our hunting no mules, and I get a ton of questions about mules, like how do you get started, what makes a good mule, where do you buy mule? How much does a mule cost? What makes a mule better than a horse? Or or or why would why would people use them over a horse? It's a better question. Lloyd Holly is a national expert on mules. He's been raising, training, selling riding mules for over thirty years, and he is

uh he is an expert. We have a really good conversation that gets into the nut and bolts of mules. And if you listen to this the whole whole thing, through its entirety, you'll know more about mules than than most people do. And uh So this can be used as a resource for you if you're interested in getting in mules, or or just want to know some good

intel on an iconic equine animal. Be sure to check out W Hunting Supply for all of your hound hunting dog hunting needs, whether it's garment products, whether it's callers and leashes, whether it's UH customer apparel. W Hunting Supply is known for their customer service. They're known for their dedication to the hound sports and they're a family owned and operated business. My friend Buddy Woodberry and his family run the business and they are experts in their field.

Check out w Hunting Supply for anything you need has to do with dogs. So we're at the Hollywood Mule Farm. Um, I'm here with Mr Lloyd Holly and I got Colby the bar Tech Morehead with me. But it's a beautiful June morning, isn't it, Mr Lloyd? Yes it is. We we've been fortunate in some ways. She had a lot of rain this year. In other ways it's rainoys delaysia couldn't hay first cuttn't Yeah, but it pulps you out later on in hot summer. Yes, yes, well it's kind

of turned summertime on us. Uh. It's it's been pretty hot, but I guess that's what it's supposed to do in late June and Arkansas. Well, I'm no old timer, but this way to spring I can remember. Really. Yeah. Yeah, Well, Mr Lloyd, I've got a ton of questions for you. Um, So you have been in the mule business for how long? Thirty three? Years thirty three years and tell me this kind of give me an overview of of what you do with Hollywood mule farms. Well, I could say I

started from the beginning. I grew up on horses, you know, and I've lived I was born and graced here in bray Grove, Arkansas, except in three years when we moved to Idaho when I was in the first second third grade and my dad and uncle caught wild mustangs out of while he mountains and near the Snake River, and we broke them and so sold him for extra money. You know. That's where I learned to ride mustangs. And uh we do. We put about thirty days training on

him and then sell them. Really, so that's what you your family did for the three years there in Idaho. Or did y'all go up there and catch them and bring him back here? Oh? No, we were. We lived there, okay, but we're just on them. On that note, we found out in our experience and then we trained a bunch of them, was that if they got to be four years old, you they were, it wasn't too late to train them, but it was a lot harder. You can

train them when they were two and three year olds. Well, we tried several of the four and five six year olds and and in time he might have come around, but they weren't quick learners. And but I got thrown up without his saggurating puppy five hundred times. Wow. But we rode a lot of barback. We had a railroad track riding, and uh, it's all me and my first cousin, same age, and that's all we did summers after and

before school. And he's ride those mustangs and my dad uncle not a three hundred, three hundred hundred fifty arena, if you will, a big d and and then it took a couple of smaller ones and that's where we're starting them all. And of course we weren't. I did not know about horse whisper, yeah, that stuff, you know. But when we learned a few things, and we did a lot of the same things, and I just didn't call them mad. But our our theory west to give him started and said, we stubbed him up to a

pony horse. And the way we went, yeah, and so you would you would, you'd put them with a broke course and then times of the broke course, and now you just lead them around to desensitize them, or you'd ride them. We rode them, you'd have somebody on the Yeah, they didn't buck theer as hard, but they take sure fight at they They had to have a pretty have rider on the pony horse because they must thing would be up in the saddle a lot of times and so but so you learn to not be afraid of

a bucking equine animal at that point. That was had a long time ago. But we just get back up and go again, you know, and pretty soon it's like round in training now. We we would take my cousin, I would get on one. It was just thirty days broken and good new loading, and and we just run them round and round and round around rich and pat him round and around around, and we're soon just let you pat him, you know. Yeah. And so take me

from there to how you got in the mules. Well, we moved back to Arkansas and have been here ever since. But um we we we we always had horses and for some reason, well one reason was I'd always wanted a pair of mules for driving working team, and I didn't really think about riding them at that point. But they're pulling a wagon or pulling, pulling logs or something

a card or anything. And but my one grandfather used mules a lot, and I liked them, and and I always want so after I got married and got we botched horses, and the whole family went trail riding. But I found this pair of mules and about fourteen two, and I bought them and in the bot that's their height, yes, sort team too, yeah, and about a whole bunch of horse drawn equipment to work them with. Of course there was a lot of trouble, but it was what I

wanted to do. And and but being riders and the oldest son being about twelve years old at that time, we hadn't broke the ride no time. And then we found out just from personal experience that on a trail riding that they were superior to the horse, just on average. You can't say a blanket everyone goes better than ever horse or vice versa. But but anyway, they were much more sure footed and much more of a self preservationist

type of animal. And whereas a horse will painting lots quicker than the mule and rare up or fall over. And yeah, I remember one time I got off the trail and it was about thirty riders of the Devil's nand and there's pretty rocky trails and they're looking nothing but the feet and horse pretty much knew where his front feet was, but basically the back feet just fall wherever they were. And here comes to move mu along, and he's picking between rocks and just staying nothing. There's

much chance to loosen his balance, you know. And the rougher and steeper got, the better the mule shines over the horse. I see. You know, that's a good That's the best description of the sure footedness of am old that I've heard, because I've experienced what you're saying. But you're saying that horse knows where his front feet are, but his back feet just going wherever. Where a mule is just he's picking up all his feet and putting

them right where he wants him. Well, one thing, and I can't prove it scientifically, but I've been told, and I think so from my experiences, that mule can seize back feet and the horse canned, okay, because of positioning of his eyes. I just tell you a lot on an animal, how what they're set on the head. And see, uh, of course we're predators and are fishing comes together pretty quickly and pray animals. Sur vision doesn't not there. They're focused on half mile away or quarter mile or whatever.

And if you get closer to an object and it's done a good point. A lot of people can don't figure out why a mule spooks set a stump, rock or holding the ground or something wonder student's not moving or anything. Well, can't focus on it. There's this reason. Okay, where do you where you right eye vision makes your left eye vision, that's your focal point. And on a horse or munich the different. But six or eight or

ten ft before the crosses. Yeah, of course, being a bray animal um having you we do you want something to run and get away their visions further out? I see, I see. So you by owning these mules, having grown up your whole life with horses, and then you got these mules and you saw for yourself that they were in the woods, on a trail ride, in a lot of functional ways. As a saddle animal they were. You felt like they were superior to a horse, and so

that fueled your desire to get more into him. I guess, well partly, and there another thing the mule does. Of course, there's any in the stuff you say. It just has exceptions. But basically, a mule does not wear up, does not get off the front end, does not to their head. If you notice the horse starts getting nervous about something, he starts fidgeting and jumping off his front feeding and throwing his head up and then maybe rear up and maybe fall over. Okay, And you just rarely see a

mule do that. So okay, that's another reason it makes me more surefooted. And another reason that it makes the rider more confident. Yeah, you know you you can get a little nervous if you were to real good experience rider and your horse starts doing all that messing up down And is that? Is that the way a lot of horse rex happen is a horse rearing up on its front end. I mean that's kind of like the classic Western scene, you know, as this horse rearing up on its on its front end. I mean, is that

how I guess? Well, there's more just a par part of it, but it's more to the pointed, in a moment of crashes, a horse doesn't care if it hurts you or him or if he goes over the cliff or while he's going somewhere. Yeah, and the mule being a more self pasuration is not that they can't can't run away also, but they said, oh, it's always down there, I want to stay on a trail. Yeah, you know that kind of a situation. And why do you think that is? It's it's you know, I guess to even

take it back to the very basics. A mule and most people would know this, but a mule is the cross between a male donkey and a female horse, so jack donkey and a mayor horse. So why would uh, why do you think a mule is naturally more self preserving than a horse because he's half donkey or more and a donkey's avery self protecting. Is that correct? Well said, you have self preservations. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you take it.

I tell people all the time they want to learn how to ride a mule, is I'm a donkey and try to train the donkey and then nicking more clearly, better to evaluate the mule and understand it because people are more just relate to the horse side of the mule, not being a criticize him, but because many people have a tend a donkey or anything to do with them, so they don't have a clue. They think there he

just having an awful day. But if you if you can understand the donkey side O what you said, No, that's the donkey coming down anyway, So you can deal with them and train and retain them a lot better if you understand. In my opinion, I think the donkey m hmm yeah. So what would be the what would be those characteristics? How would you describe those? Because you know, what I kind of want to do is describe why

would somebody want a mule? That's the question I get, Mr Lloyd with people that are considering, you know, in for our context, these guys are considering how to get into the back country, how to pack in, how to stay longer in there, so they're not just joy riding. They're trying to use these animals. And they asked me why would I get a mule over a horse? You know?

And I think you've described in one way, you know, like the the surefootedness and the safety, the potential safety of a a good mule, and not like you said, there's gonna be some mules that are dangerous as they can be, just because they're not trained, they're not broke,

they're not good animals. Forever ever horse story, you can tell me the mule said, I could tell you ten more for horses said, you know, okay, because you hear a lot of people say, oh, don't ride a mule showing on and so fell off of them in brokish neck into what I'm bucked around well shoulder horses, you know, but that's minor part. But you take it like a

long and self persuasion and steal. If you're doing a round pain work with your dog, with your mule, and you know, if you put a horse in a round pain I worked last year. I worked a three year old horse for a friend of mine around Ben and I took a halter and the leader let him in the round pan and turned the blues and I just shook my halter and he must have galloped twenty rounds around the round pion. Four year stopped and I shake

it again. And typical, especially you've done broke one. But you take a mule, you can earn you most of them. Whn go for shake your halter, you know, to get after him, make him walking. You really got to get after him to make him canter. And round pain because it's kind of like I tell people after the second trip around the around pen, they've seen everything out there, you know what, what what more reason could you want

me to be out here? Yeah? Yeah, so the reaction of that horse was more extreme than the reaction of the mule. Yes, is that a way to describe what you're saying? Well, that's part of it. There. They're more of a fast twitch muscle animal and donkeys are slow twitch mussel animal, kind of like a hunder charge sprinter and a mile distance runner. You know, Yeah, you see there with some guys on track running a mile or

eights or whatever. Yeah, there's a little skinny dudes. You don't have any extra way, no muscle mash on him to build up heat came with the horses taking an air brunched a long way. She's not got a big quarter horse hip on him. And yeah yeah, So so take me into every time, Well, take me into how you got into training them and selling them, and and and he made this lifestyle or a career. But I could say, well, after I bought the team, my son

and I started riding them trail rides. And one day we were on a trail ride and somebody says, were you going to the meal show at such a such a town? You know what massour? We said, a meal show? What's that? M hm? And they told us, well, it's just like a horse show, and you do it with mules, same things, tending to have more fun events than the horse shows to average horse show. So we we my son, I told her mules up and we went up there

and we said where do you go to Richard? So they had to class list there, just sectaries desk and we looked down through there and we didn't hard to know want any of those things were. They were running the classes, but we hited everyone of them. And of course our meals were untrained, and they got a little bit unruly with us because we kept pushing them for speed different events and we did Western Western pleasure in

bar Ratio and everything in between. You but we had more fun than you can imagine, and then the first question we had was worse the next show. And in the meantime we started training our meals at home to get ready for the show. So we did that for a while. I didn't realized and it's not going to work. These mules are plowed mules draft on drafted with horners type mules, not speed mules, and so and so forth. So I've always been one to try to have the best I could and whatever it is. And um so

I bought two back in early eighties. I bought two meals and give five thousand dollars piece for him. But they were we started winning. They were because I recognized that the ability, but they didn't the writer did not have the ability to complete, to finish my fine tune them for training. But then we started winning, and then people wanted to buy our mules. Okay. So I've always been one if the price is right, it's for sale, and so I'd sell. I sold the wife's mule all

the time. Yeah, the kids mules. Yeah, my daughter she had this good mual and I lift it up to her when she wanted to sell it, and he won. She won all kinds of stuff with him the shows for years. Was shot righting when she was nine, and then she picked out this that at this point was a little boy was trying to compete at the mule shows. This meal wasn't you're good enough? And he was crying and and so but Arner said, Dad, when I could read set little blue. I want that little boy to

having mm hmm. So we've become good friends with him. And it was John Higgins and his son, John Jr. That they're doing really quite well. That anyway, then that blossomed out to work. At one point there we were doing twenty five shows a year. Okay, you were competing, yes, yeah, but you were also selling mules, so you were you were gathering up mules and trying to find the best ones. Yeah. I didn't get purposely in what you might call the quote trading business. It just kind of chucked me and

just kind of happened on its own. I just And then your last name was Holly, and so you had the perfect marketing Hollywood. Yes, Hollywood's hollywoods. Yeah. A lot of people think I took that after Hollywood, California, but I didn't. Okay, Okay, maybe I missed it. My sister married the last name of Woods, Okay. And we at one point we bought some Richard cattle together, and we had to have a prefix to put on their name,

so we should wretch Hollywood's letter for letter. You know, you know, I drove out this place for years and years before I had met you, and I was just like, this guy's a marketing genius. Hollywood's well, let's just worked our advantage certainly. Yeah, but anyway, I kept training mules and I'm trained. I just trained one. So I had one ride, didn't get a certain points, somebody by get another one and pursuon. I was in the mule business. Yeah.

At one point we for what to speak of my operations, we had for three or four years, we had over hundred head wow, horses, mules, donkeys, and we stood three Jackson read around two hundred marriage here. Wow. So you were so then you became you weren't selling well you would have been selling finished mules, but you were also

selling colts. Yeah. At that point, I don't I don't consider myself ever being in trading business, but I was in the marketing and Richelle been a totally integrated program, you know what, Yeah, having a marriage ration, the coach standing, Jack breaking, the coach ride, we're going outside, mules train. We shipped out of semen and equitainers all over the country. Really, so you had jacks that were that in demand that

you were selling semen across the country. Now, what what makes uh man that's what I remember from twenty years ago. We we lived in pray Grow for a time, so I just around man this big old mammoth jacks or something. And for people that are listening, if you've never seen a picture of a mammoth jack, go type that in the internet. Pretty incredible animals. Did you You had some good ones, didn't you? Yeah? Well, I bought what I

thought was good When he was good Jack. Colonel Bean called him, he uh was gating Jack, about fifty four inches, real clean bond why tween hawks and good head? Good head and I mean without a smaller head near and not too small. But I realized for trail riding he was great. Every one of his coach moved out, I mean bubils had some type of gate to him or easy mood. But then I realized I had all those good marriage. I read him too, and it just wasn't

quite getting all the second third places. But it wasn't getting an outstanding mule had haled her to win with. So that's when I started looking for Donner Jack. I bought in a whole lot better Jack, and I started having world champions a halter, tell me what that means. World champion halter. Well, that's certain. Just like a court horse says their world show every year, it's it's a peak of the shows, supposed to be the best show in the nation, you know, okay, West Inter's national levels

level show. What what events are these animals competing in? They would make the world champion? Well like that for instance, So what's just talking about? There would just be world champion halter mule. That that that's totally just awful looks yes, okay, And then there would be all shows are combined do speed events in one category would ride up in divisions, and so you'd have like six or seven divisional world champion winners and then you'd have the one high point

all of over the whole show. Okay, okay, but it didn't you start off so with just a little fun play days we do the egg and spoon and sack race and bareback switch and all this stuff, you know, which is fun. Yeah, we got a hat truck coming by us. Um so these uh halts, So that that's good information. So halter mule, that would just be totally going off esthetics of a mule. What what? So you know I've had mules now for five years, and I mean, I know what I think looks good in a mule,

and I know what good feet are. You know what makes what makes a world champion halter mule halter confirmation would be saying, with any breed of animals, you chad, wat's the most desirable way to have us have a model mule, in other words, to compare everything against and of course not having a like dairy and beef and horses. They have a painting a picture drawing the ideal type horse or gal. Mules haven't done that by the mere

fact that nine of your mule writers are rebels. Rentengage, you know, kind of independence, you know, and you don't. I don't like to be told what to do and all that stuff. And in some extent you've got to be have some of that to deal with your mule, because they'll they'll put back in your face if if you don't have some bit of aggressiveness to you, then they'll take advantage of you. And not you can't get a lot done with them, but you've got to cut

a lot of compromising. And eighty or nine percent of the people that owned mules have never made them do anything. They've trained them to do this in that, but comprise with it gets too much, we can't handle it. Then they're working somewhere else. Yeah, it's likely what was on Traver. I had one. I'm gonna this. Lady had this horse, and everybody been bragging on how good he was. Well

we come to this little wasn't even creek stream. It was just wide ditch, had the water running in it, and everybody had about twenty on the ride, and everybody's animals just went right across it except hers. And he just come right up there and and right what she should. She spurred him just a little bitter, tapped him on the butt with the range or whatever. He went right across,

But she didn't. She she'd encourage him right up to the point he got there, and then she'd take all the pressure of So he just turned around and walking. He wasn't trying to run away or anything. She'd get him back over there, and finally she got off and led him across the water. Of course, got her boots at bubber boots. You know. Well she got him across the water all right, But it wasn't anyway. The horse one she didn't teach you. Yeah, So like with going

back to the looks of a mule. Okay, so you said because mule people are the certain the way they are, which I want to get back to because I've heard other people say that, um, and I'm trying to figure out why I like mules, So this may tell me something about myself that I don't know and why Colby likes mules. But you, uh, now I know Kobe's a rebel, so we already know that. Yeah, you missed it, he said.

He said that mule people are usually rebels at heart, okay, renegades. Yeah, they gotta have it in them too, Uh, they gotta have it in them to be able to deal with deal with their animals. So what characteristics are you looking for them? I mean, like like with height, or with build or with I mean like, can you describe the perfect mule for you, even just for you? What's a

What's a perfect mule in terms of height? Color? I like for my prayer self, for personally, I like a fourteen two animal fourteen to that rides fourteen to how many inches is that? That's fifty inches fifty eight inches to the withers, which is where the hair of the main meets the back basically is the highest point of the Withers scapula, the highest point of it measure from

the ground. But some animals ride bigger than others. You've wrote a lot of fifty four or fifty meals, and road just bigguse of fifty eight, I see, And it may be a little hard to explain. But the more hard to go that just road bigger. Yeah, and I've had some fifteen fifteen two meals bigger. Generally, the bigger to get to the laser they get. The harder is for him to move and to get more drafty, if

you will. Yes, the more always like a little refinement, little smoothness to my mules and bary you get them. The harder this to get that. And it's the shame that in the last ten years, more and more of the donkey breeders or breathing for size, you know, not how it looks. It's he is the fifteen hands tallers,

he's sixteen hand tallers, he's seventeen hands tall. And the donkeys I'm talking about, well, if you breath to one of those, ma'am with Jack's, you're gonna get a colt to resemble some It's gonna get the big mule that's on the average is lazy, uncoordinated and looks like if you put together by a committee. And so you know you just not my type of mule. But do you

need to take them linked to an actor? What I sit on the mule, the type of ear they have, how much withers they have or don't have, probably sending five percent of your mules are like a donkey. They're straight back. Yeah, so when the straight is a string, but they don't have any shoulder muscle to hold your saddleback. Okay, So I like the meal with a little shoulder to him. Okay. And then if you you get what's your legs should all four squared up with your legs in front front legs.

You're usually pretty square on the meal, but the back winds are not take the hip structure of a donkey. It's back. When they stand it what they call it camp out and rear understand with their feetback okay, like out wide, well generally wider than the normal stands. Yes, okay, we'll not there propping up yourself so they don't fall down. I see. Then someone passes on to the mule. If you ever recognize what it is you what's your door home life? Take his straight or forward? Ten mules running

around the pasture. You could really tell it then because there's arch legs are back and they can get collected, okay, like a horse. So they don't it's running like a donkey. They're a little short gat to have. You know when they're running a donkey. They're camped out in the rear most of them. And they don't take longer strides. Okay, take a reining horse or cutting horse, uh, barrel horse, anything extra speed in the movements. They had to be

collected to do it properly. Take a change the leads. You're galloping me around the read and you take it across the vile and ask them to change leads. He's got to get collected to do that. And if he's camped out in the rear end, it's almost impossible. I see. They got to drop down to trot one trot, change leads and go back into a canter. So they need that wide stamps to be able to do that or that, or well not so much wide stands. That's just that's

just it's standing. They need your hips, whole hip structure to turn like this so they can get the rear feet up undram They might gallop. A meal might overstride say two ft, whereas the horse was tried and maybe ten. So they've gotta be just the structure limits and a lot of decent movements. You're just trail righting the average meal. You don't don't notice a meal. They don't affect your trail riding that you know of that you can tell.

But if you go try and do something with him and understand what makes you move this way or trying to make a move that way, and ever ever hand while we roach been right or left handed, so we've got to learn which one is your favorite leg and right how to make them work on the other one in general, if you were if we're again going back to this question of mules and horses, like a tell me if this is right, this is the way that I've described it in the past, isn't is a horse

is probably gonna be maybe faster and maybe a little bit smoother ride than a mule, but a mule is going to be safer, more sure footed, and do better in rougher country. Is that a fair assessment? Accepting that you told me it's gonna be a better ride. Or disagree with that? Okay, because you take if you watch you, if you watch a horse walk, they do right front and left career on the ground to walk. Then you do the left front, right rear. Well, it's the same

link to stride on each movement to each cycle. But a mule would have a little more paces. There's the ways feet go. Just moves a little bit different. It's not much, but it doesn't take much to make a difference in the ride. Gives you a lot better ride than a horse. Oh really, So you think a mule can have a smoother just walking ride than a horse hole nearly every time? Really? Okay? Okay, huh. And then

you gotta watch on you when you're breathing. M says, if you're picking the brewd mirror, you're going one with a long slope to the shoulder because the donkey is a steep shoulder and they don't extend. They can't extend,

I say, but it's in its on. On the other hand, it's that are the donkey's gate, not these big big checks and stuff, but an averageized fifty four in to donkey the gate that to him is really more favorable to packing the donkey is you have, then you move up to a mule and they're more donky is better than the mule, and mules better than the horse. And because it's a movement, it's so smoother it doun't ruffle back. Okay, okay,

And that's that's great info right there. So because of the structural and straightness of their back there well, and there their stripe, that's what you're saying. At the movement, their movement there. That's why they're great pack animals because it's not jostling the pack. That's part of it. The other reason they meant good pack animals just their natural born followers. Okay, if you're on a geriality, go to

patential people, go to leave. They don't want to be first to follow you anywhere, but they takes a little better trained, a little more independent builder. I want to be out in the front. Okay, that even more than a horse. Really, why do you think that is? Because

they're half donkey and a donkey just a born follower. Okay, you can watch you and I used to have twenty gennies out there in that pasture one pasture and had a water nice water through their forum, and they'd have had three dust rolls bowls if it's not a hole in the ground where they can go down and roll

or make one and then you can see him. That was your pa had a pattern every day they go to one dust bowl rolling and they grazed, and then in single file to go to the new water trough, and in single file they go to the next dust bowl. They didn't know horses nottense to do that. They get around, maybe some of them kicks up, runs around. Donkeys are just leve together. So that's why they make good trail animals for packing gear, you know. That's that's one of

the major points. Of course, you gotta live with the straight backness, and sometimes it's harder to good to pack to hold on there. Okay, so the straight backness doesn't help the pack hold on. It's just the way the animal moves. Well, that's turnt intertinct to follow. Yeah, yeah, you know she everybody a lot of people who don't know things hanging up here. She got riding his horse. Bring the back we all string and they don't you have them time to get it. They're just doing their

own you know. Yeah, yeah, they're jump in and following. They don't pass, they just follow. H m hmm. Interesting. So so you had all these jacks, all these mayors, who was who was What kind of people buy high dollar mule? Is that if question? I mean you were selling mules all over the country, Is that right? Yes? I never really thought about it. Why the type of person? One?

One type of person? I mean, are they mule people or are they horse people that want just like this one really nice animal that they're willing to pay a lot for or is it? Uh? I mean, like are most people Do most people that have mules that's all they have? Or is it? Or do a lot of horse people probably have maybe one mule for whatever reason. I mean, I was just trying to get a feel for because you sold some high dollar mules over the years,

I mean you're making a living selling. Yeah, I was not compared to today's market, but I sold a lot of high dollar mules. But I guess two or three different types of person people. One would be that person who wants to have something different, show off, you know, because don't want it just to be different. It's going to want to be well trained too. And then and you see lots of across the country. You have a

group competitors or riders like ropers, say Steer Ropers. You're going maybe there'll be twenty teams of horses, and then to be a couple of years come out there and run, you know, and you guys maybe got three horses he's ride when he also rides a mule and just something different. And then some of them want to have the very best. And I had more than one person called me and say what I want to buy the best mule in the United States. Mhm, myney is no object. Mm hmm.

But then at the same time maybe sounds like Kobe. Yeah, it's all right, Kobe, lets them up. It's that guy. Had a guy from Idaho come one time and bought a trailer over tosson. Then he came bout three meals from me, tacked up backpack tack and you sold him everything everything. He means, you don't have a brush. But he was. He was a guy maybe thirty years old and an avid big game hunter. Lived to night who in in the year before he killed all five big

game animals, including the mountain goat in Idaho. And he was back. He wasn't put your size guy, and he lost seventeen pounds while he was hunting that goat because you don't to pack in what you could pack on your back. Well said, put that away. But that's why he did it. And after that he said, I gotta have me a mule. So he came in. The drove all the way down here from Ottaho, and I had about seven eight meals called. I thought it would work for him, and I had him don tied round the fence.

So I went down and told him about everyone, one of them, each, everyone of them, and he walked back a couple of times he said I take this one, this one, that one, and all the tapers slowed him up, and I said, well, we better ride him. You pulled out the cash register changing changing Well, he said, I said we better go ride and check him out. You might decide you don't like. He didn't even want to write him. No, he said, why should I want to write him? Lord, you told me what kind of music

were and I believe you. He trusted you, and so he said, I don't need to ride him. Well, it wasn't mules. I was worried about. It was him because when I asked him how much writing experience he'd had, and he told me that he thought he could remember riding a pony ride in the circus one time when his mother took him to the circus. I mean nothing.

So I talked to me. I said, well, look at three o'clock in the afternoon, why don't you you're gonna have to stay overnight anyway, why don't you s we go tott trail ride on the mountain tomorrow and just for time shake. You know, well, okay, so at the time we got top of the mountain, you're smart enough to realize that he needed some resistance. Yeah, I mean it did not come with an owner's manual. Yeah. Yeah.

When he was that type of guy, you know, he's like, I just whatever it is, I just get the owners manual and built in figured out. Yeah. I said, you can't do that with mucles. You know, when I first got mules, I wasn't quite like that, but I quickly realized that buying a animal, especially if you're working in these lower end mule markets where you don't know what you're getting, it's not like buying a four wheeler. You

don't you don't just go, okay, a broke mule. You know, get on Craig's List and see broke mule for sale twelve hundred dollars. You think you're just gonna get on that animal and just have no trouble and ride all

over the country. That is not the case. And I think that's probably the biggest thing that people that I hear people that have questions with is they don't understand that transition from zero two functional and uh, you know inside of being able to ride a mule, Because even if you have a really well trained mule, he'll take advantage of an inexperienced writer, will he not? A lot of times you will. Let's pull pull that down just a little bit more. The there you go, there you

go perfect a lot of times. Shut this case. But the more you learn about the more when you learn about meals, what makes them, tecking, how to train them, and property, equipment and stuff. But more you realize how little people know about what what you're doing. Yeah, and if you have any question about their being a higher being, you can just watch the many screen horns tried and they don't get killed, you know, because somebody's gonna be

looking after that dude. She could have had ten of those one day, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, mm hmm. So what what's uh, what's the high end mule in today's market? Like what what would? Well, there's gonna be several mules due to Jake Clark soay mainly, but they're selling a lot of both public and private for ten tod Yeah, it's not uncommon anymore today. I mean, I remember the one one when I sold for twenty five grand.

She was way four above it. And this number two you might have been ten thousand dollar mule, you know, but it's not that way. And another reason they're getting higher priced mules, it's because the people are breeding better mules, but not only better looking, with better capabilities to do

some performance. And then the other thing is to get the trainers are more watching the clinicians, you know, and learning to what the horse people been doing for years and how to apply to their mules and and so mule trainers are getting better, yes, more, I mean, and they're educating the average rider. A lot of more and more riders, trail riders so speak, are going to these clinics and learning, hopefully one on one world what to do. It's still a long ways from being accomplished writer just

in one session or two. I went went of mine back in the day when John Lynes was the main the horse whisper around. He had a five day clinic over to Homer and my friend to a friend of mine, wanted me to go over there and watch him. And after five days he was a friend was amazed. He

told me back to back up a little bit. He told me about six months before that that he wanted me to help him become a better mule rider because he had TRAI rized all the times, said, I won't mind me able to do better than average trail rider. So I worked with it with a bunch of stuff. And one thing I worked with him on I was getting his meal to do a turnaround, and he he pop picked up on him pretty quick. One reason because his meal was handy and he realized it to which

I saw right away. But he realized that after the third days, what he's taken three days to teach those people to turn around, and you taught me in fifteen minutes. I said to well, he's making money at it's how he makes she's living. He's gotta milk this out. He can't give all the good stuff away the first day exactly. I'll tell you what you mean by turnaround, I mean just being in the middle of a trail and get

him to spend three or sixty degrees. Well, see there again, you're relating it to trail ride you and it's not as important most of the time. But you don't want them to just walk around in the circle. You wanted to cross a cross over and flash the trail rod got a tight situation. You want to cross over and cross over on their back legs, not rear up. But just takes a lot less time if you go to

circle like thet to roll back. Okay, And I'm gonna have to bring my meal over here because you're talking about a lot of stuff I don't I don't know of. I just know how to get on one and make it go wherever you needed to go. We do that and not fall off. I've got to meeting out here now that's not finished. What she knows enough, I can show you what they're supposed to do. Yeah, mm hmm. What would you uh what what advice would you give somebody that was wanting to buy mule that didn't know

econ animals much? What advice would you give him first, Try to find somebody that's reputable it be is honest. The thing I found through the years is not so much what people tell you that they're people that are selling mules. Is not so much what they tell you, it's what they don't tell you. I's try to get you hurt and in my way thinking that's the same as a line. Yes, I know exactly what you mean.

I mean, if you come with me and say I want to buy this mule, and you've got some questions as he kicked or does he do this or does he said he says no, no one saw you get him home. He does something difference. You know. So you called a guy back and said, well, you here told me that he would run over you. Well you didn't ever ask me. Yes, that's no excuse, that just cop out and just playing a liar. Yeah, you know that.

You described that so well, and I'm glad to hear you describe it that way, because I said the other day that I didn't it being a mule guy, a mule salesman, it'd be hard to be successful and be completely honest because almost everyone is going to have some quirk. Every every animal that I've ever bought, like right now, my mule that I love so much, she's I guess she's coming on five. And I mean you couldn't pay me enough money to sell her if I was trying

to sell her though for a high dollar. I mean she you know, fidgets when you're putting a sideline her. She uh, you know, she's got quirks, um and and so like, but probably somebody. But she's never bucked me off. She's never she's never kicked, she's never done anything real crazy. I mean, I could make you, I can show you pictures,

I could tell you the truth. But then when you got on or you'd be like, man, this this meal is kind of fidgety when it's nervous and kind of cold backed a little bit, you know a few little things. Um well, a lot of everybody has a different writing ability. Yeah, It's one thing has helped me through the years. It's to figure out how, how, what kind of what level these people are on and matching with the mule that's you could handle that. Yeah, and some of them care

there are better writers and they think they are. And some of them are scared to death, you know. Yeah, yeah, But and some of them realized that a lot of guys and that goes kind of along with the being independent and more over redl with music. A lot the guys should do the one taking any training, you know, because they're bearished it. But they might not have no money for wife does it. But they let their wife go to training, but they don't want to go. Couldn't

be that hard, you know. Yeah. But I had a couple comes from which to Falls, Texas. They bought two meals from in. The woman was about fifty five years old. She's what I wrote some when I was a kid, but I haven't written in twenty years. And my husband's been paying for me to writing lessons. But they're English lessons. Mhm and uh. She said, I need some Western writing lessons. So we were turned around here and I started to

coaching her. Her husband was telling her to do this net and I said, wait a minute, Bill, you want to be one teacher if you want to. If you won't tell her what to do, I'll go to the house. If you want me to tell her what to do, then you need to shut up or you go to house. Yeah, is is this part of the world kind of the mule epicenter of the country. Yes, okay, because I've been saying that for years. I'm glad that you verified that for me. Not quite as much as it used to be,

but still it is. For sure, Arkansas, Oklahoma and Texas particularly hot spot from mules. But then you see a lot of mules just numbers misshipping out of Baba and Georgia don't have a lot of mules, but not necessarily high quality, high trained mules. Really so so out West, a lot of these outfitters and different groups have mules. They're buying those mules from here a lot of times,

is that right? Yeah? So I know there's a there's one guy that I know of here in Arkansas that trains mules all year long and then takes them out to these uh live auctions out in Idaho, and it gets pretty high dollar uh for his mules out there in the live auctions. Is that kind of because that's what I've seen, is that a lot of those Western

guys are coming back here to buy mules. The oz arcs and and well not just the old arcs but states you said first, and I don't want necessarily want to plug Jack Clark, but he see he was so smarter than the rest of us, Not that I wanted to do it, but he'd been in buying selling mules to all his life and he's a guy that's my age, and he figured out, hey, if we just do better a quality mules, people people figured out and come by,

especially in the West. And so he only his mules have to be vetted before they can be sold at his well. Not only have they first have to pass the phishical inspection to be a nice looking mule, and then they have to have certain qualities, and he sets up obstacle course if you will. Yeah, he's placing they have to go through all of that before they can qualify to go to the sale. And it'll be everything you can can think of, all the stuff he has

it for him to do. In other words, one one, if they can go to his trail course, they've got to be pretty well broke. Yeah, it could an average mule that I'd be riding make it through that trail course with proper training. But the first place people people are going to pay that a lot of money, a lot of money like that for they don't want to train them and they don't know how, and they don't

want to. They want to step on him and do what they're supposed to, not realizing that I have people all of times to say, well you're a trainer, No I'm not, I'm a rider. Any time you touch your animal, you're training it your trainer or whether you like it or not good or bad. Yes, yeah. And I told her fancy meal to a banker one time for a lot of money, and she's called me back in about two weeks and he said, but I need to bring that meal back over there. I can't get on her.

M I thought, well, okay. We brought her over and she fished it a little bit when I when I got on her, but she stood fine. And he said, she's starting to get away from me. When when I was getting the saddle, I said, we don't have to progress, bring her right over. So I wrote her a week and I said, come get your meals. Nothing wrong with her. We come got her and to weeks to call me back the same thing. They brought her back over and I said, okay, I want to I'm gonna fix her

this time. But before you can take her, you're gonna have to show me how you get on the rider. Something you're doing. It's not the meal. So what he was done, it's getting on me all purpen Dickler and he he had sharp pointedge, told your boots, he got your right in m m yeah, in the side there with that booting press. Soon she thought there was a clue to move away. Yeah yeah, yeah, And so I saw him turn turns out but sideways. I didn't get

up when your animal, so you're not poking her? Yeah, and she did fine, yeah yeah, but he was training her, see yeah, he was training her to do that. Yeah. Yeah, Um, what's uh? What would you say to me? It seems like there's two kind of mule markets in a way,

like I guess, I guess a vetted mule sale. They're gonna get more money for that mule because it's coming from reputable trainers and it's been vetted in some way, like the Jake Clark stuff, because is it you know, you can go on because you can buy cheap mules anywhere, but they're just not not they've not been proven, I guess, and you've gotta weed through, like I'm trying to understand, like somebody paying five grand for a mule, you know, like they're I mean, I know why they I mean,

I know people with money would do that, but like, um, it seems like some of these trainers are buying cheap mules and just sell them in a different market and making money. Does that make sense or is that has that happen? Well, I said, I don't what you're talking to, kidneyp. But a good trainer can take a mule it's got a problem and maybe fix it. You know, yeah, where every person couldn't do it. Don't have to knowledge or abilty to do it. Maybe has a builty, but not

to knowledge. And um, but you take a mule, you guys put nine year, hundred days on and knows what he's doing. Maybe paid Mandy Paint the five thousands for me don't start with, but to have me gets it up to the level of fifteen thousands somewhere training. He's put lots of time, expertise, quality time with that animal.

The only problem with find those type of mules is that a lot of times that there are sometimes it doesn't stay when they get them home because this dude has been riding a meal every day that he can for several hours. The more you use them, the better to get you know. Yeah, Well, I don't know how many muals I've brought home and he comes untrained a little more every day. Yeah, because I thought these trainers are original trainers will like cold ride one for somebody

only write and write and write and write and writing. Yeah, so the day after you get it back from that, obviously it's gonna do pretty good. But four months down the road when you've written it three times, or maybe a week downe the road. Yeah, but a good example I had. I bought one from guy here in Arkansas at the time. Was his trade. Jo was trader and she was a fancy look at me. Well. I showed her to the world, showing Californ't she placed third the

halter in her class. She was since she was fifty eight, and I bought her for myself. Had a good, good way of traveling, and I discovered her out there any want of five thousand dollars for so I bought her and asking about different questions, and I've known him, wasn't a stranger. But then I realized after I bought her, when she started giving me problems and I wasn't paying attention, but I saw that mute different times of the day there was. Of course, there's lots of lots of people

out there. I was always on the track in New Venus. I saw her time after time. It was a different writer on her lopen lopen, hour after hour after hour. And so I got her home and it's real pleased with her. And I sat her up, rode her two miles down the road and back and everything's fine. And I did that for about a week, and about fift or six ride, I noticed she was kind of actually wanted to buck some you know, humped the pomy and stuck ears up, and I thought, this, a bitch could

buck you all fun. She bucked me off if she could wanted to. But the next day I told him that I kept a big sixteen hand pony horse here, I said, down here, and taking me down the road, we got to the second curve down here, and she just exploded. And the first thing I knew, I was sitting behind the saddle, and so while she was coming down, I grabbed the horn and stuck myself back into saddle. But then I looked over and and even with the

rubber on the horn, she's how powerful she was. That leader was around the point of horse saddle horn there and win. And so when she come down the next time, I stepped off of her. But she I couldn't, She couldn't reck her that. Why was she doing that? She was a bitch, she just had But she was a super well trained mule that people had ridden like just well, I was just every now and then she would just get that way. She was a mule. She was a young mual. She was just four or five year old.

But she she I'd say, my opinion, she was that away from birth and not many of mar but she's one of them. Just her natural instinct. What's the buck? And Moy wrote her, unless she did it, you know, surely, and there he goes another point. One person can get along with mule and the next one can, or vice versa. Really there's some truth to that, huh. Meals are much more of a one on one type animal because you're donkeys, right, half donkey. But I sold that meal to the guy.

A friend of miney Resourn, told him how exactly how she was, and he bought her. And but she bucked with him every time he got on. He made her open mut out of her. She bucked every time he'd get it on her five thousand dollar mule. But h but if she had been right, I could should her for ten you know, I see honestly, So that's a time when you got the where it didn't work out. I guess that's that's why you could do those You you could evaluate them pretty quickly. Write him, write something else,

write him. Usually don't have but fifteen mint half hour. Once the one, I'll take the time to go on trail right withy one. Yeah, her bringing home and try it out. Yeah, but m interesting, m hmm. Cope, do you have any questions? You've been awfully quiet over there. Yeah,

I'm taking it all in. I want to hear. I was just thinking, if you have one mule that stands out, just some legendary mule that you've had that kind of out classes the others, like if you would describe them, or maybe a story about something that just showed how how good they were. Well, Clementine my Darlin was my all time favorite mual for looks and confirmation and ability.

You have different favorite meals for different things, but overall, and if I just pick one and be her, she's a once in a lifetime mule, and she she was born and raised in California. And she was a nervous riding mule kind blucidic ahead only worse, and you you had to be a writer. She she never did buck very much when she's run off with you, spooker, and she didn't have much self persuation. One time this guy bought her from my saw. He was at a big

meal show and had very big bleachers. Somebody come out a flag waving there. The next thing he knew he was standing up there on his meal, but he was about to top roll. Wow, and now this is the best meal you ever had? Though, Yes, and now tell explain that because I didn't make you're you're not very convincing here. It's like telling this kind of the day that it's like that never they never lose it. They're always going to be that way. But then you can

work with him and make them better. Could She'll be a hell of a meal. And didn't have that problem, you know, Yeah, I mean you came, but you got to you got to understand the problem and figure out how to deal with it. That put me on. I

didn't write her, but she was easy riding. But anyway, clear me was bought as a cold and raised and trained by this uh California guy, I guess, I say, And he did quite well with her, but he never could get that last little bit out ever, And I figured I could, and I did, but she got more broken and she mettled out, and I put a lot of time on her. She was finally got today to

where she didn't regress, but uh she was. She was having on speed events, telling me that I wrote I wrote bunch of them that you could grass the rider into the arena, circle around in the says, you might say, cock the hammer wide open and just fog it into the barrel. Never slow down, just come out of there scratching and clawing and go to the next barrel. And that's what you gotta have you gonna win. You can't have one to start right, and yes, slowing down be

fore they get there. Very much. So she was fast, that's what she liked about her. And she was very very athletic. But her I won six world championships with her M and now Halter championships are or Halter and she had dog Halter and and all the speed events. And then the guy bought her from wass A World Champion Team Open M hm and got working. Huh, that's the story. Now she would she had been a good trail meal just to go out here in the mountains

and ride. Well, she was, she was very right. Ahoy. I wrote her a few times on her trail, but she wouldn't kind of a trail mule. But a cow working made me think, hey, we used to have a hundred head half hers here we kept and resold. I worked them all on the mules, and out of a time of having twenty thirt meals, i'd have five all the time. It could work cattle. Yeah, most mules that

don't have enough speed to work a cow. They a lot of them have enough speed to just get up even with her if you got to trying to hit one out going down the fence, but enough speed to get from them and cut them off. Well, I had this one mules fourteen two maybe three hand bucks. She and Molly mule we call Ruth. She was about to have year old when I bought her, and the guys that I bought her from would work castle with her, and so I find tunder. But anyway, back to my story.

They had at Carthage, Missouri. They had a a friend little competition and steer opening team pinning, and I found out about it and they had horses are showing and had the meal show. I took Root up there and the horse show was still going on. In the call for they're doing a team pinning, they call for single penning, and she was. She was best I've ever seen that that for me and so went up the owner. The guys put it on sponsoring. I said, can I write a meal in this class? He said, look, buddy, I

don't care if you write a goat. But unlet's be understood that only one money. Everybody just want to take the whole part. So there was thirty six centered and I was the last one to enter. And if I don't know if if you're here with cattle pinning, seemed single penning, but you have all your steers out there,

hefers was a cross the line. Then you have a pen setupool here m And if you've got three riders and you pick out, there's three steers out there with that same number, of course, short around, drying around, put them in the pin. A single pinning is the same thing, except they'll put one more panel over there. There's no way you can hit them off. We've got to be not only good, but you're gonna be fast, and then you've gotta be lucky, and lucky in the sense that

your animals are used just quickly accessible. So I take off off the dead run and blew the whistle, and my steer, one of my steers was well, my ownest, her single opinion was right out in the front. Boy hooked around that dude and took him up to the arena or wide open and put him in there. In the pin six point seven seconds, I had tied the fastest horse. Mm hmm. So the crowd was a huge crowd. They were just loving it. They're all crapper and who and so the owners and the ancer said him't you

want to flip for flip for the potter? You want to run it off for split it or what? I'll be damned defined you want to split anything with the mule? He cussing mules, and so he asked me, and I said, that's fine. We runned off. I want to take a home. So we got in there and I drew to go first, and the same thing, and down stairs, right in the front, took him up dead run. He got almost to the pen and he cut in front of me. I just cut the rather background and put him making anybody was

thirteen seconds. Well, I'm thinking shoot at all that deal when he comes in there and he gets his right off the bat and said up there, and it turns almost in the same spot, but he didn't get around it, and he kind of got away from him for City Blue Whistle and he went past my time. Well, he was really mad about it. And so the stairs still out there, and he rode up the la stair and leaned over and great grabbed the stairs and twisted the steers tail and when he did, his saddle turned. Don't

even dumped him running the dirt. Uh, godhead. It was one of the good mules one that day. And I heard, I heard, I heard for months after that somebody seen, somebody had seen. You want to say, hey, did you hear about that cat cat cattle penning up there at carth some mule one net like it was a Hollywood mule. Um, you you mentioned the mules age. What is uh, how long will the mule? Can you functionally ride a mule? Like?

Will they last longer than a horse? Certainly? Well, A good example is that there's a paramutual racing excuse me for mules since six or eight or nine states eleven out west, and that's when I found out that the Para mutual race track they won't allow a horse to run past the age of ten. Well, when you run the mules Perer mutual, it's sixteen. Okay, So that gives you some idea about longevity. Useful longevity of the mule

is longer, the much less longer. We didn't touch on it, but some more advantages to having a mule is that they don't eat as much. They're not as selective and want to eat. They'll eat about anything and do do well on it. Yeah, they'll do better flesh wise, with less food and poorer quality than the horse wheel donkey side again. Uh, and they're less, they're more, they're more disease resistance, they can standing more, riding injured in the horse will okay, just a lot of things like that.

Don't think about could you ride up like Toby's got a Well, we both have a mule that's about fifteen. How how much longer will we be riding? Those meals seriously or easier to Okay, I got the meal out there now, that's modified eight years old really, and she's not like she used to be. But if you take care of she. One of the problems if any of those horses get solder, it's your teeth. And most people don't float their animal's teeth because they don't think he

need you to. Never never heard of it, but that causes a lot of problems if they gets out of whack of tooth gets loose, or it gets a point on it where it makes a sore, and they don't you set trying to make them turn when you turn right what it punches them in chin. I don't want

to do it. So it's advantageous to have you floated, especially after they started getting big eight or ten years old, and then when you get real old, if you haven't throated them on a regular basis before then they started getting a little loose and then they don't match up the uppers and lowers. HM. I bought it. I never didn't have a professional float your teeth all the time.

But discovered this one viewers upper tooth that was literally an inch longer sticking down in his gun and wearing the side, causing pain when closing mouth or you put a put a bit pressure against it, so they to cut it off with bare nippers. Huh, floating wash'n't do any good? And now what is what is floating? Actually mean?

They're pulling a tooth out? No photo, mr are you have a kind of a rasp so to speak, that's so big on the handle and you broke it up down on their teeth taking them even if they're chewing something and they can't, their teeth will come together just

your your I have to say. Problem. Yeah, he started getting the horser because if you feed them in a box stall and pandhords are by therself and you got some h on them, you'll notice you notice you have some Hey the trought that he did, he's chewed, but he didn't swallow when he speak it back up. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good sign that their teeth work. Yeah, okay, well hey there was that that. Everything you said iss been really good informative and uh yeah, Kobe, can you

think of you got any final question? I mean there's a thousand as the other thing as I want to talk about, but we've we've covered the big things I wanted to hear about, you know, the mule business and what he what Mr Lloyd was doing all those years selling which we covered that we covered the you know, I learned some stuff about why you'd want to mule over a horse. Um. Another thing I would like to point out, uh, he said, most people, particularly women, do

not want to be dominant over their animals. They just want to be equal. I see, and a lotch animals, not just mules. But do you have a pecking order. You cannot be equal. You've got to be above or below in the pecking order. Yeah. So that's one reason some people do or do not get along with their animals. Kind of goes back to the idea I said earlier where most people do a lot with their mules, but they've never made them do anything. Yeah. Yeah, well it's great. Well,

thanks so much for meeting with us today. I want to go out here and see some of your mules that you've got, and me and Colby want to come over here and ride with you. Yeah, thank you, Mr Lloyd. We really appreciate it. You're welcome any time, all right, Thank you. Well. We always in our podcast by saying keep the wild places wild. Professor with Barford