Trad Bows in Wild Places

off with velvet Fest. Now what is velvet Fest? Long story short, velvet Fest is the opportunity for you to win a variety of different prizes just by purchasing Exodus Trail Cameras, one of the best trail cameras on the market now until July twelve. When you purchase any trail camera, you will be automatically entered into a drawing to win a variety of prizes from companies like Wicked Tree Gear, MAYBN Rifle Scopes, Tethered Tree Saddles, and of course, Excedus

Trail Cameras. Be sure to follow Exodus on Facebook and Instagram, and be sure to visit Exodus outdoor gear dot com for more information on velvet Fest. Your life will be changed when you kill your first name with with a stick, because will go this can happen and and I believe that that when that happens, and some for some people took me a few years before I did. But when that happens, I don't know that you ever got back. I despise the game of golf, so I can't believe

me bringing this up on the Barony Magazine podcast. But you hear you hear people talking about golf how it's like this game you never perfect, you know, you just keep working. And that's what people that have nothing else to do in their life choose to do when they want to be golfers. But traditional arches like that, it's like, no matter how long you've done it, you're you still have to be on your a game. My name is Clay Nukeleman. I'm the host of the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast.

I'll also be your host into the world of hunting the icon in the Northern Rikan Wilderness. We'll talk about tactics, gear conservation, but will also bring you into some of the wildest country on the planet Chasing Bearer. On this episode of the Bear Hunting Magazine Podcast, we're still in the wild places of British Columbia, Canada with Jeff Lander and Primitive Outfitting we're talking with Jeff, but also his good buddy and now my good buddy, Dave. Keeper Dave

is an Alaskan resident in a lifelong traditional archer. So Dave talks about hunting Alaska, hunting brown bears. But we really just kind of have a camp fire, you know, roundtable discussion of traditional archery, why we do it, the self imposed limitations of traditional archery, and just lots of general great discussion. Jeff talks about a hunt that he and a were on just that week. I also want to bring your tension to some of our good buddies

at the Western Bear Foundation. Western Bear Foundation is based out of Cody, Wyoming. These guys are hunters and they are in the heat of and in the at the epicenter of the the issues revolving around bears out west, and they're taking a big stance and in the Western Bear Foundation is rewriting the narrative for how hunters are involved inside of the bear world. As you guys know, there's a lot of a lot of hype, a lot of negative stuff going on with the de listing of

the grizzly bear out in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. Well, Joe con Dellis and the Western Bear Foundation are right in the heat of it. They're they're a nonprofit organization, a membership driven nonprofit organization, and they're standing up up for hunters. And the way that I would describe them inside of rewriting the narrative is that they're actually doing things that are keeping bears on the landscape. They're using

the funds that they have currently for two projects. Last summer, they installed bear proof bear proof food containers in some of the hotspot camping regions in the area. And basically they're saying, Hey, we don't want bears getting in trouble here and then have to be killed. We don't want them to be euthanized. They're putting their money where their mouth is to keep bears on the landscape, and that's

what hunters do. The other place that they're putting money in right now is that they're buying callers for research projects. They're funding research in UH in the Greater Yellowstone region and and basically what they're the message that we're sending to the anti hunt in community, those that are against our lifestyle and way of life and way of thinking, is that they're saying, hey, we're interested in bears on the landscape. We are interested in bears thriving in this ecosystem,

and we're hunters. And uh, the Western Bear Foundation great organization. Check them out, become a member, and uh, you know, here's the truth. If you remember the Western Bear Foundation, you're gonna get Bear Hunting magazine sent to your house six times a year. So it's a great way to get Bear Honey magazine, but also support a great nonprofit that is doing some stuff out west for bears. So

we are in British Columbia, Canada. We're at the at the world headquarters of Primitive Outfitting with Jeff Lander, and we've got Jeff's good buddy and now my good buddy Dave Keeper here and uh, this is the this is the sixth day that I've been here Jeff, and we've had a incredible time. Saw big bears every day, put stocks on big bears every day. The only complaint I have about British Columbia is, uh, inconsistent wind. I don't know if there's any way you could Is there anything

you could do about that? Hunting next to the railroad when these trains are going by, the wind is going the way they're going, or culverts or culverts when I was went, that's another that's another story. Culvert wind has to go through. Man, I've already dug as a hole. We can't get out of stalk to bear through a culvert a few days ago. Now, hey, we're gonna talk about traditional archery. Jeff. Jeff is a long time hardcore traditional archer and Dave as well as a long time

hardcore traditional archer. These guys have a wealth of experience and knowledge and sick excess and just so that's really what we're talking about, because right now, what I see inside of the hunting world, it's people looking for different ways to enjoy the resource, different ways to to challenge themselves inside of hunting. And you know, when I was growing up in the nineties, that's kind of when I came of age to hunt. Killing a deer with a compound bow, Dave was a big deal. I was only

kidding my school that had ever done it. And uh and at the and when my dad was in the seventies started hunting with compounds and stuff. I mean, he was the only guy in his town killing deer consistent with a bow and so like that was a big enough challenge, you know. And then man, by the late nineties early two thousand's, everybody and their daughter was killing deer with compound bows. I mean, people just became better hunters,

technology became better. And that is when I was introduced to traditional archery by a gentleman that is to this day a mentor to me. And uh. He talked about hunting with trad bow on public land in Arkansas, and I remember just thinking that's the way bow hunt ought to be done and from a personal standard. And I think that's something that we can't do, is tell somebody else what they're supposed to do. We we just gotta be true to what we want to get out of hunting,

you know. And uh, and so my journey was, and I'm not here to talk about me, but you know, over the course of fifteen years kind of transition to now where really my primary weapon is usually going to be a traditional bow, even though I still use compounds, still use a rifle some But Jeff, to tell me about your your you talked about it a little bit this morning, but like you're history into and how you got into trad bow hunting. Yeah, I mean I was, I did a little bit with the compound for a

few years and really enjoyed it. I don't really remember who got me into the compound. That was back in the Martin days, the overdraw, you know, the sixteens, which a lot of kids these days would But and then I worked at it. When I was in Seattle, I worked for a UM, a place called Salvino Sports. Dick Salvino was good friends with her friends with Schaeffer, Sean

Schaeffer's bows. I was pretty opinionated, as most traditional guys, traditional shooters are pretty opinionated about what they shoot and uh, and so I started at his brain shooting his well, his Schaeffer, and then another guy named Rocky Miller, who's no longer making bows UM Heritage Archery, was shooting his bows. And then I just ended up buying one. So at first it was a little bit of peer pressure from you know, my boss, just for fun, and then it

became enjoyable. Started shooting some three D shoots and the summertimes realized what what heat does to a recurve bow, you know, a hundred degree weather down eastern Washington laminated my bow before yeah, well, first shot at the at the range it eliminated. So yeah, um, and then just kind of went from there, you know, with college and and and success didn't start off right away, you know what I mean, Unlike the compound. It was frustrating, but

just kind of stuck with it. We had little babies, so it wasn't like I was going on a lot of hunts. But yeah, and then just what did you what drew you to that challenge, to that level of challenge because you could have stuck with a compound mm hmm, I don't know. Just uh, the simple how simple it was, simplicit. And then making you know, arrows and splicing feathers and even made my own self bow a few times. Yeah, I didn't work out real well. I don't have that

craftsmanship like a lot of these guys do else. But yeah, that's kind of how it started. And then I started shooting the North American Longbow Safari. And there's a guy in uh up in Alberta, Bert Frey Link's name, and he was the leader of our group. And I didn't know that it was a broadhead only shoot and wood arrows, and so I showed up to this thing. I just had whatever aluminum arrows and this guy gave me like eight beautifully crafted cedar arrows with spliced feathers and a

hundred ninety grain grizzlies on it. And yeah, so the community is also what attracted me. It's just a real tight knit community um like minded folks. So that's kind of how it started. And then yeah, I just went from a progression of you know, the first long bow I bought from Rocky was eighty pounds. I figured you have to have similar to what my compound was. And then and uh, and then went into sell bulls like John Strunk, and so I kind of went down that

road for a while. Yea, the name of your outfit is Primitive Outfitting. So I mean you you you like the idea of traditional archery, just kind of the philosophy of it, but as a as a business owner also like compounds. Yeah, we gotta have compound guys in here. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't mind rifles either. So hey introduced Dave to us. I know he could do a good job, but I bet you could do better. I met Dave. Dave came up or came down from Alaska to hunt grizzlies,

and that was probably ten years ago. I taught Dave everything he knows about running the river, and uh so we were flowing the river. I'd never really wait a minute, are we inside of an inside joking? Okay, okay, it's the other way around. So so Dave and I were we were going down the river and I had really never navigated a river with a raft. Here gap on my one of the rivers area, and I was taking his hat off. I was just I'm blowdowns and he pulled.

He says, get over to the side, and I get to the side and he he gives me the quick Alaska rundown. I'm tired of losing his sitcat. So you took You were like, okay, Mr outfitter, let me drive this boat. Well, it became immediate apparent that the guy, you know, I just couldn't drive a boat, you know, down the river. And uh it got to the point where every willows ree along that river was it was a target, you know. I mean, it was fun, but I lost an outstanding hat on that. Don't worry about it.

I agree it. Uh So, yeah, that's kind of how it worked. And we had a good, good hunt. He had an opportunity, very big, grizzly and that's for another day. But then it ends up that he hunted with me. I don't even know if two or three times in the Edmonton bosone or more in the same down in in my mule deer camp. And that buckets above your head right now is one that he shot. And then he came here a few years ago. Uh did you come here two or three years in a row? I

don't even remember one or two? And then um yeah, then last ye took a year off when he had some some heart work done, and which is a miracle in itself that he's sitting here right now. Um, still cranky, but we're glad he's still kicking around. Yeah, giving me a hard time. Yeah, yeah, but he's a he's a veteran traditional mark big time, yeah, big time. Yeah. David, Why don't you introduce yourself just a little a little

bit of history. How how old are you, David? Well, I'm now, yeah, And uh I started, Uh, I didn't have a choice. First off, when I started, it was long bows and recurves. You it was that good. Yes, it was long bows and recurves only. And I didn't have a choice. Back in the sixties, well, it was nineteen sixty seven. Yeah, that's the first year I bought a license. And uh, you know, how old would you been then? No one, no, no, I was let's see, I'm not doing a math. I was just guessing you're

a teenager. Yeah, I was still in high school. And uh, you know I was pretty born in nineteen o three. It might look that way, but yeah, there we go. Okay, got the math right now? Now you got it? Yeah? Good? But anyway, that's uh, it's it's a good are Uh. The thing about traditional archery is I didn't have a choice, and I was lucky because there wasn't a compound in in uh, in the choosing of anything. It was just simple pick up. If you wanted to be a bow hunter,

you shot a traditional art right. And I remember to this day my cousin and another friend of mine were instrumental in getting me started in high school. And we had a place in Minnesota called Fort Ripley, so we got ready for it to hunt fort Ripley. And I remember that night before opening day sharpening broadheads for hours and hours, and I had gone through herders to buy my broadheads mail order catalog for those under Yeah, I've

just heard hearsay of it. Yeah it's uh, it's I don't know who wounds it now, but uh, it was the only source I had for buying traditional or any kind of archery gear. And I had ordered some broadheads and they were called herders Ramax broadheads. Well it must have been made a pot steel because you could not get him sharp For hours and hours, I practiced sharpening at the camp fire. Finally my cousin said, here, here's a bunch of delta's. Put them on there and they're

worth chefs and sharpen them. And I did that until four o'clock and where when we had to get up to go hunting. And uh, it was a learning experience, but it also taught me that good gear was very important and and uh, you know it just blossomed from there. So what was your first traditional animal? What was your first animal that you took? A forty two pound fawn? Yeah that you're just a small target man, that's harder and killing the big one. And I hit him when

he was running through the heart. I was just, you know, plumb unconscious. Luck But now it's forty How did you learn to shoot? Did you? I mean, did you just there was probably very little resource about it, like form and how you just started shooting it. Absolutely none. I mean there wasn't anything, no social media. I just I picked the bow up. We bought it, uh forty seven pound Ben Pearson, and I'm where I lived to where

I could practice the bowl. It was kind of I mean city type area in Minnesota, and I'd have to ride my bike for two miles to come to these bales in the park and I did it every day after school, every everything. You were kind of mesmerized with the ball. I loved it, you know, I mean I had no idea what yardage was, just shooting it. Just shoot. Let me ask you this. Did you find that the native form that you began to use was correct? Yeah,

I've been lucky. I started with a merridy and draw, which is one thing you're above two um split fingers, bit, split finger I started that way and I've been that way ever since, and I think my form is pretty good. I've learned a lot from people over the years of how to follow through, um, continue aiming at your target in your mind, that type of thing and jet master stuff. Yeah, it was all good. But but when I was learning I didn't of anybody to teach me, and uh, I

just got lucky. What was your accurate range back in those days? You know? I I thought about that over the years. Uh, thirty yards was not not in question. I mean I could not shoot thirty yards. We always

shot ten to fifteen to twenty. It was real clost a matter of fact, I wouldn't even launch heroes like now, I'd love to watch a narrow fly right, you know, fifty sixty yards, but we wouldn't even think about shooting that far, you know, So I would say, my my accurate rangers tend to yeah, you know, and like it is now. Yeah, you know, well your eyes sight outside of that's probably not too good. You know what. Jeff I say, he was born in n You gotta give

him some credit. Yeah, he started reading when he's eighteen, so yeah, but I didn't COMPREHENDI I was five, you know. So the well, so you killed a deer. Now you were living in Minnesota, but no, and I don't know very much of your here story, but I know that you were in Montana for years and now you're an Alaskan resident. Have spent twenty something years in Alaska and that's where you've done a tremendous amount of I mean you've killed, you've you've taken tons of big game in

Alaska and Montana. I've been lucky. Well my careers. What brought me a law enforcement and brought me to Montana. All the criminals are out west. Yeah, you bet we'll see in Nebraska. Yeah, Nebraska. But but then I went to Alaska and uh uh, you know, there's nothing like Alaska. There's nothing like going to a place where you know, nobody else has been. In Alaska, you can still find that.

You know, when you moved to Alaska for your job, was the intent to I mean, did you want to locate there so that you could hunt or was it just where really where a job opportunity was and you followed that Well, unfortunately all my moves were because of hunting. Okay, yeah, okay, yeah, it was just checking. It was absolutely uh number one, when did you what year did you moved there? Man?

I don't even remember night something, yeah, you know. And then but I took promotions down south, being down in South in the lower and then came back up to Alaska. You know that type of thing. My job afforded me uh, you know, three moves and my family. Yeah, and and the whole family would move. So you raised your family in Alaska and you still got sons there. Yeah, all

the kids graduated in Alaska from high school. So tell me and Jeff if you know some prodding questions for Dave, but you to ask those, Um, what would so like move into Alaska? Like today, I feel like Alaska is much more known because of media. I mean just the transmission of information is so available. But back in the eighties, I mean Alaska, I mean, obviously you would have known it was good hunting, and you would have known all the good things about being an Alaska resident and a hunter.

But I mean, like, what was it like showing up there a guy from Minnesota. Maybe he lived in Montana, so you were kind of acclimated. But in starting to bow hunt Alaska. So in and you've hunted and I'll tee you up here. I mean, you've killed mountain grizzly in Alaska, you've killed sheep, you've killed if you killed the muskox up there, no bison up there, So I mean, what was it like coming into that world with all that opportunity? I think the most prevalent thing in my mind.

When I got up, there was very little organized I mean, people really don't differentiate. If you want to shoot it with a spear, go ahead, you can hunt right. Rife lining is rife lining, and bow hunting is nuts. You know. Most of those guys think what are you doing out here? Right? And uh so I ran into a lot of that, But it wasn't derogatory. It was just they chake their head and walk away. I remember most of the floatplane operators, you know, they'd go, what is this a fly rod?

You know, I don't know, it's a long goal, but and they kind of giggle, you know, yeah, but it was, uh you know, it's a challenge, and that's what traditional archery is. Why didn't you pick up a gun? Well, I just challenge, I think. I mean, I made my

living with a gun. You don't see a lot of people go through this transition, is that they start off with this limited technology, like you know, all you had in the sixties was a wooden bow to shoot with, and then as soon as new technology comes around, they're like, heck, yeah, I forget that stuff. But you stayed with it. Well, no, I hadn't. I went on to the compound, and I have no problem with going back to it some days physically. If I have a problem, I'm gonna go back to it,

you know. And uh, I have no problem with that. Uh but uh yeah, there is a trend to make it easier. Yeah, you took heat for that too, big time. Oh man, did I yeah? Tell us, well, no, I mean he comes from the era of I mean there's a lot of a lot of folks out there who are friends of ours, who are in you know, big in the business. Whoever some bowmakers and traditional bow hunter guys that when you switch over, it's like you've cheated

on your wife, you know. Yeah, it really is fascinating how that works because traditional shooters are mostly the older school guys, like we've got some yourself and and um Jake and whatever that are young, you know, and you don't see that maybe necessarily as much as far as the old old school guys. If you switch or you go to a compound, all of a sudden, you're you're you're out of the club pretty much pretty much. And uh um, but not only out of the club, but

you're you're you're the devil. Friendships are affected by it. Yeah, that's crazy, it's crazy. But what part of the human psyche does that categorize into? I mean, like for real, like it's it's such a it's such a niche. It's such a close knit group that all of a sudden when you do something different, it's like, I mean, I understand it, but it's it is an interesting humans. The political climate right now, Yeah, I mean that's that's probably

a good way to put it. Is that it's like if you all of a sudden, we're you know, a Reagan Republican and you switched over to whatever Democrat. I mean, you're done. Like your followers are start following you and whatever, and I think that's starting to go start to fade as as the older Yeah, so it's like you broken ideology.

It's like you broken ideology. I was talking this morning with Jake about how when I first started shooting tread or gut to tread bow and like two thousand one or two, um, the guy that that gave me the bow, uh pretty much said you know, you can't do both. You can't shoot a compound and this and be successful. And I kind of got his point. But what I found is that you know, I'm I can navigate both weapons.

Do you know what I found up? I can navigate to both weapons too, But lots of people have told me that same thing. But I tell you I'm a much better traditional shot after I've tried to compound for a while. I don't know why, but uh yeah, I'm much much better just aiming techniques or whatever it is. I shoot traditionally much better after shot a pin with What do you guys think about the and I hope that we are seeing a trend of a lot of new people coming into traditional archery. Um, but you guys

haven't been there for a long time. What are you? What are your perceptions like good and bad? You can say whatever you want of what well just like like uh um, perhaps it could be like a Well, what I've always said is that you can't fake traditional archery, like uh with a compound. You can. You can get a compound. You can become proficient relatively quickly, relatively easy. You can't fake a traditional bow. I think sometimes people perceive that and then so they want to become a

traditional archer. And then but then maybe they I don't know, just what are your perceptions of new people coming because new people, you bring new ideology, new stuff. And I mean we kind of talked about that. I mean some of the things the kids are doing these days, they're breaking the you know, three fingers under in clickers. I mean that's a big deal. Yeah, I think I'm not even necessarily talking about that. I think most most of us when we start off, you know, young, are shooting

a stick. You know, our parents buy force you fling around at sparrows or whatever. I mean, I had an old herder's recurve and I'd go down to the river and shoot carp you know, in great school for the day, you know. And so I think that it's the natural um, not progression. But I think people are so efficient with these things now, I mean like deadly, deadly proficient with compound bows. May I see it every year and fall in spring. It blows me away, the guys who can

shoot and really shoot, you know. And I think that after a while you might get you want more of a challenge, and now it's it's the it's the rage now, you know. And you can attribute some of that too, Like we're talking Schneider, Aaron Schneider, he kind of blew the you know, grabbed it and killed a lot of stuff with it, which kind of you know, And so for a lot of the old school guys, I think that kind of I don't think they knew how to handle that, you know. And uh, and then because of that,

and I'm just using that just one example. But now with social media and all the things that you can see at the click of a finger, people are thinking it's you know, it's romantic, and it's and it's whatever and simple. But now a lot of people are going on that route, which is great. I think, whatever it takes.

The only thing I really like to say about that is that, um, don't do it because somebody else is doing it to them that you're right, do it for yourself because you like simplicity, like you like challenge, or whatever the reason. Do it for yourself and feel good about it, right, don't don't don't show off to somebody else just because you think they want you to. Look, which isn't why Aaron did it. No, he just got tired of just killing stuff with his compound. It was

so proficient. But and he doesn't like the accolades. I mean, when you tell him that you know that what you're doing is changing some stuff. And I mean again, I'm just using him as example just because I know him and h but I think it's kind of the the rage right now. People are doing it and which is great for the boyers and carolmakers and stuff. And it's fun. I mean, it is fun. It's a lot of fun

to shoot and frustrating, super frustrating. Well look at the you call any of these boyers up now you want a new bowl, You're you're you're looking at a year to a year and a half and they're worth more than compounds exactly. Yea by a long shot on some of these boys. Yeah, so you know, absolutely it's growing. And yeah, yeah it is cool. You know. Uh, to me,

just to shoot a traditional bow is fun. And I'm a very proficient compound shooter and shooting a compound has never been fun to I mean, just like Joey, Like I hear people talk about that, but how much they enjoy shooting a comment and and I mean just for sheer pleasure, just go out and just plank arrows. And I don't want to say I don't enjoy it, but to shoot a traditional bow it's fun. Yeah. It kind of brought back some of the the maybe initial joy

and statisfaction that I had with the compound. It's it's brought it back, and it's it's kind of like what I hear, I despise the game of golf. So I can't believe me bringing this up on the Barony Magazine podcast. But you hear you hear people talking about golf how it's like this game you never perfect, you know, you just keep working. And that's what people that have nothing else to do in their life choose to do when they want to be golfers. Um. Traditional archery is Uh,

I knew, I knew I was gonna step on somebody's feet. Uh, I'm just I'm teasing. My dad tried to push us to be golfers. Um. But traditional archers like that, it's like, no matter how long you've done it, you're you still have to be on your a game to shoot profishent in the field and take animals. There's a funny story about when I was in high school junior year. Uh, we had a class called archery and it's split to golf. Well,

I had absolutely no idea what golf was. I mean, you're hitting a ball around her trying to put a whole right. That's that that was just plumb boring, right. Anyway, the teacher, who was a cool guy, said, hey, you shoot a bull a lot, don't you. I says yeah, yeah. He says, well, I don't know any about bulls, So would you teach the bull part and I'll teach the archery part. I'll give you an A and I says, you beat you? And then guess what I got any out of that. So there was a class that was

split between archery and golf. Archery, golf the game. It was like two parts parts right, And that was pretty wild. That was maybe there is some similarities there. Well, yeah, I gotta put it somewhere, you know. Mm hmm um. I want to let's see, I want to hear some some Jeff, what's an iconic traditional archery hunt that like would epitomize why you love traditional archery? Like if you'd ask me that, I think I would have an answer of of like the hunt. If that's a fair question,

And I'm gonna ask you the same thing. That's dam hunts or or well no, no, just like in your like well in your career, like when you were the first time that you took this animal in this way, in this place that you were like, this is traditional archery hunting for me. This is what I this is why I do it. Like if you could describe it like that, I would put two animals in their black bear for sure be one. I think black bears are kind of custom made for the trap. I'm talking what

about a specific hunt though? Was there a hunt that was like iconic for you? And I mean like a specific animal mm hmm. There's a lot of them. Yeah, yeah. What what was the first animal you took with a trade bow? Uh? Black bear? Yeah, first animal, but probably my favorite. Well, black bears right there, and I haven't hunted them for a long time until this year, but

it would be mule deer. I think mule deer. In order to I mean, everything has to come together on an open country spotting stock mule deer, there's no you know, you're not sitting in a tree stand, or you're not calling, or you're not doing whatever. Um. Yeah, there was one mule deer that I hunted for about eight days and he kept kicking me and making me look foolish, and finally I fooled him. But there's a lot and when you took that animal, you were like, this is why

I do this? Yeah, but I mean it probably the bear, you know, I mean with with the self bow was pretty cool too, yeah, just south of here. And and actually when in hitting it and dying, you know, it's like these things are efficient, you know, satisfaction. Yeah, yeah, I want me. You're used to the high speed bow and compound and then you switch over and these arrows are shooting a hundred and sixty per second versus at that time maybe two fifty or not even, but still

there's a big difference. And so I didn't really think that you could kill something. You didn't think they were an efficient weapon. No, yeah, no, And and it was very that was a struggle for me when I first was for ten years piddling around with traditional archery, I didn't believe that they were an effective killing tool. And then now it's like, when I pick up that bow, I feel like I could take down any critter on

the planet. Yeah. Yeah. For me, it was antelope, and it was on the prairie in Montana, and I was stalking anop before anybody was because most people thought you're honting antelope with a bow and arrow. Yeah, that's what I did. I can remember cutting out cardboard and painting it to look like an antelope before mel Dutton decoys, before any of that stuff, and we paint these things and of course the wind would just take him and

fly him away, but but stocking antelope. And when it finally came together, um, you know, it was about a yard shot on a real nice buck and he was that and right then and there, I said, man, that that's what it's all about. Because it took hours to get on that buck and then you know, to get it to happen. It was really satisfying. Yeah, I remember

it well, Yeah that was seventies. Yeah, you know for me, now, I had taken animals before this, But when if I look back my animals i've taken with traditional gear, which is not near as many as you guys have. But the bear over the water hole on public land in Arkansas, because I never thought that that would be a an animal that I would take on public land spotting stock on the ground with a tread bow. I mean, i'd never purposefully I didn't try to make that hunt happen

just because it was just too hard. And uh, that day it was kind of an accident that even had my boat. I was really just scouting and it was just you know, I was like, I might as well bring my boat, you never know, and ended up taking a bear found well. I knew where this water hole was, didn't anticipated having a lot of bears coming to it. Went to the water hole, you know, two hours up there, I found a ton of bear sign and just said, man, I'm just gonna sit here until one comes sat down.

Two hours later, bear walks up eight yards in the water, shoot it with a tread bow, and uh, I think avan said. I said, I'd rather kill that bear, and it was a soal. It wasn't a big one, just a average sal I said, I'd rather take that bear. And I'm more proud of that bear than a Kodiak brown bear because I did it in my home turf, in my where I wanted to do it the way I wanted to do it, or a way that I

didn't expect to do it. And then, you know, so to me, it's like I could never kill another animal again, and I could hang that bow up and just be like, yep, that was a great video. Yeah, I'd really like that one. That was cool. You can tell you were excited. Yeah, well it was kind of an accident. But then the next day went to the other state just down the road was able to do it again. What's that was cool? But um, Jeff, what questions do we need to ask

Dave about? Uh? Now, you started a couple of traditional archery state associations. I mean, well myself and other people. But back in um nineteen eighty nine, I was stationed with the United States Border Patrol down in Florida and there wasn't an organization for traditional bullingers down there, and I got together with four or five guys and started Traditional bull Hundreds of Florida. And now it's huge, I mean like thousand members. Um, but that was pretty cool.

There wasn't one, I like six six of us that started that, and it's growing since nine to what it is today. And I was the first president of that, and uh Traditional bull Honers of Montana. I was started that with Dick Robertson and I think that was the nineteen well it must have been nineteen eighties something, eight seven or eight six, something like that. But and that's growing too also. I mean, you know, these things have

just blossomed. So I mean anything is possible, and it's just a bunch of guys getting together, care about something and make it grow, right. And I didn't have much to do with the growth part, but at least we started it. You know, it was cool. Yeah, that's great. Um, tell me about one of your your bears in Alaska. Well, first of all, and I don't know what people think about baiting, but in in Alaska you can hunt grizzlies with bait, and I originally started out. I can tell

you what we think about it. We love it, yeah, absolutely, But there are people like uh, well several up there, the old time boads and we all know what I'm talking about. That fought at tooth and Nail and lone. Oh it was like bloody. They didn't want it to happen. Well it happened, and now everybody can hunt him that way. And then it's the fishing game was because they did

it as a management tool. They needed to take out bears, and that they couldn't take him out of the ways, right, some big bores or dying you know, grizzlies, and uh, that's that's what's all about for them. Anyway, I placed this bait in a remote spot, not thinking about it

being a good grizzly spot. And uh, I set it up and went up there the first night, and my tree stands are only like ten feet in the air, just because I didn't want my air or to come down and hit one long right, so I could, you know, give more a different angle. I wasn't worried about, you know, some of the black bears jumping in the tree stand

with me. But I'm sitting there in the first night, and this this grizzly gave no indication that he was feeding there, you know, the crap or anything like that. A nice black bear came in. I passed him up and and he ate and did that kind of thing, and and uh, you know, I let him go. And five minutes later I see brown. I heard some twig straps snapping, and it's very thick, very very very thick.

And I look and I see brown coming through the trees, and it said, all great, brown black bear, this gonna be cool, right, not a collar faces where I'm at. And he's coming in and coming in, and immediately I see his face come through the bush and I said, oh crap, it's grizzly. It's a big one and I'm only, like I say, ten feet in the tree. You were not trying to kill a grizzly, but you had a tag. Oh yeah, yeah, we had a tag. But that's I can have a tag in Alaska. So so we uh

where I was by myself. I didn't even have a gun, and uh, this bear comes in. He smelt that black bear and just an absolutely ape. He grabbed that barrel and threw it. Then he beat it up and jump on it. You know, I apply used plastic barrels up there, chained and so he crushed that. You think he was trying to make make noise to let other bears know that he was in there. I think so. And he

was let everybody know. He I found that bears, if they want to be a hundred percent silent, they are and if they make noise, they're doing it on purpose to let other animals know. And he let everybody know. And I'll never forget he he bat that barrel around, hid it in the air, and just like Muhammad Ali boxing a bag. It was awesome because he was so fast and um and I'm away like ten yards away from the bait and ten ft in the air with no backup, no backup, And I'm figuring. Once he figures out,

I'm here, I'm dead right. Well, he did look at me. Have you ever been looked at by a grizzly? You know it because they're beating Lilizas And he didn't do anything about it, and he turned broadside and I just dumped him. He took one jump man one jump and died. I couldn't believe it. You know, they got this. He bears die easily if they're hit right, and this one I must have hit perfect because he just took a jump and died. He was twenty four in skull, so wow,

what would he would he have squared? Probably seven? Yeah, he's not a huge grizzly, but he's uh, it's it's a it's an interior grizzly. It's not a coastal brummer. Yeah, that's the ultimate. I think. When I was with Jeff the first hunt I went with Jeff, my head probably the most opportune time had a big grizzly that anybody has ever had, you know, two shots at thirty five yards m kind of downhill, blew them both. Boy, I mean, this was This is not your average grizzly. This is

a big, dark black grizzlies and just obviously a boar. Yeah, obviously big and bad. Is that right in this area? Yeah? Up higher up in the alpine fall. It was in the berries. Yeah, there's a burn up there, so yeah, that's where where it was. I watched the whole thing. Wow, that would have been like ten years ago, yeah, nine maybe, Yeah, it seems like today. Yeah. Yeah, time flies. Mm hmm,

big bear. That was. It's not the only grizzly I've missed, so but yeah, I've had good luck with grizzlies as far as getting in on him, and yeah, occ usually getting one, you know. Yeah, Jeff, what are you thinking of any stories about Dave that need to be told? Yeah, I'm sure he won't mind me telling this one. But Dave's got When Dave was born, his heart was on the right side of his chest and not his left side,

So I don't know what that's called extra cardia. Yeah, And so he comes up and we're hunting mule deer and we go on the stock and this is a big deer. He's betted and he's I mean, he's in a perfect spot. So we crawl in there. I turned around. I looked at Dave, and Dave's lips are blue. We're thirty yards yards in this buck, Mike, dude, are you all right? What's going on? And so in that space of time, he tells me that he's got a pretty

severe heart condition. Okay, that I'm gonna have to draw his bow and and not when he lands did and we're at the room, you know, when you usually did, and some I'm staring. I'm going you're telling me this now, you know? And and so and we got the bow drawn, and I stood the buck up, and then the buck ran and never got hit. So yeah, he uh, he could be sitting here and and and having whatever, he could be on the verge of death. But he's never gonna let you know that ever. So, yeah, he's the

most optimistic guy I met. And uh, yeah, we've had a yeah, we've had a lot of cool oh yeah yeah yeah. So just the other night when you got your bear was awful cool. Yeah, I was glad you're here. Yeah, so you want to talk about that? Yeah. Yeah. We had a couple a couple hundreds kill out on early and so that opened it up for for me to be able to towed around and look around, so we'd go. You know, we went to his zone that's quite a ways from here, kind of stayed away from from obviously

from my area. And we've been seeing a few bears, not a lot, but some big ones and uh, mostly just to go hang out with this guy. You know. I saw wolves and grizzlies and Mr Wolf anyway, Um, yeah, just the way it worked, it was just happened fast. Saw him, went up on him. I didn't know if he was I thought he was a good boar, but the way I mean he kind of when he saw me, he just stood up, put his paws up against the tree and just looked at me. And I kind of hesitated,

you know, because i'd like to. I've shot quite a few and I wanted to, and I haven't hunted one in eight years. So you're you're after bear, You're after a big one, I'd like. Yeah, I see a lot of these things get shot every year. It's not about the meat, because my freezer is full of bear meat and moose meat. But you guys really enjoy I love it. More guys are taking it home now though, But uh yeah, so it's not ever a meat and whenever I go hunting,

it's not it's not for meat because it's an outfitter. Unfortunately, my freezer is full of meat. You know, people don't when you fly up here and shoot a moose, you're not flying home with six hundred pounds of meat or whatever four pounds of meat. So yeah, so just looking for that specific bear that would like to to have for maybe a life size or something in the in camp here. But and we saw one that was pretty

legit huge the night before. You know, I got the eighteen yards on him, but it was raining that night and it was got darker earlier, and I couldn't really tell where his I mean, yeah, kind of how he was positioned. He was broadside of all I had was a spine in his backstrap. He's over the edge and then I realized that he's staring at me and then he bolted. So anyway, this particular bear he stood, and which is perfect. You know, he stood because you kind

of startled him. He saw you jumped up on the side of it. I was there the whole time. I mean, that's the thing with these guys, they they're not really you get some the bolt that you know, if they get your wind, it's over. But they're there. They're pretty cocky there, you know. Um, and he he was cocky and just stared at me. And then I made the shot and I was a little bit, a little bit back. I was through the liver and then it was a complete kind of a gong show. After that, he went

up a little bit and shot a few times. Yes, I did, and then he Uh, I figured he was dead or was gonna die real quickly and what he did. But just the situation with getting him out of there, you know, having Dave Dave, I didn't want him to go in there with his his condition and and you know, so just thought we'll leave him because I didn't see him die, and I didn't hear him. But you got two good arrows. And to clarify, you've got two good arrows and the bear. The first arrow was a killing arrow.

But I just, yeah, it's good to hear him die or see him die. And uh, and made the decision to back out and going in the morning. And uh we went back in the next morning. Um, he had we found in test nines that were pulled out, and then we found the gut file and no bear. So Immediately, my guides and I were like, is you know something, Yeah,

something's not right. And Gary went over and checked out the snow bank and there's a bunch of wolf tracks and basically those wolves annihilated him, but yet kind of kept the hide and tag. I mean their precision, they everything up to the neck. What it was like, it was like they opened up the cape from the hind quarters and then it's almost like they they ate underneath

the all the way up to the skull. So looking at the bear, now, you were able to keep some of the front shoulders and stuff, well just forearms is the only thing I was able to keep off that thing. That's the only meat that was available, which is also buco, right, I mean that's I love the form so um. And the head was fine and and yeah, it was just the first time that's ever never seen it. In probably three bears i've been in on, I've never seen that

particular thing happened. We've never had a grizzly on one. We've we've had black bears, other dominant bore black bears consume yeah, well at least one that I know of, But otherwise they're pretty much left alone, you know, they're pretty much left alone. And uh, so, yeah, that was kind of a I was an eye opener. It was satisfying for me because I got to see him get hammered. Yeah,

Jeff get hammered. He was excited. Yeah, And I'd like to see that in anybody, but I haven't seen it from him because he's so busy trying to get everybody else something. Yeah, right, and you know he gets happy about it, but this was intense for him. And uh and that's what bowl winning does to us, right, yes, And it was fun watching that in him. Yeah. So, so y'all were the way we're hunting sometimes and the way you were specifically hunting. We had Dave, we the

two of you together. You were cruising some of these back roads. Bears are feeding in the ditches. He saw the spare from the vehicle, jumped out, made a stock on him and uh and so Dave, you were able to pretty much see everything. You can see everything right from that. That's pretty cool. I didn't have to get out because a matter of fact, why would I get out, because I'd make more noise right right? It makes noise anyway, right, Yes, we found that out this week. Machine beeping hasn't gone

off yet. We've been lucky. Yeah, man, So no, it's been nice to have you know, I usually you just it's a tough thing to do, you know, even if you're in another zone and in far away. Um. You know, we got a good group of you know folks in camp, so I wasn't too worried about Yeah, this, I want to say it's a unique, super unique situation and that the guys in camp are are friends and we've all got you know, we've been hunting with Gary and and Ryan's been taken out Cody. I mean like, yeah, so

we were all pumped to see you get to go hunt. Yeah, and we Yeah, we had a good time. I mean just sit there and talk. And because honestly after you know, Dave had major major heart surgeries six months ago whatever that like almost a replacement, like heart replacement, right, well half of the hearts. Yeah, pump tacanium. Now, so did to make you better? Probably make you a better tread bow shooter? Quite a stud no, yeah, no, better looking,

that's the things. But so no, it was fun. It was fun to be able to go out with him, and yeah, we've had some he's seen me go through some stuff in life and vice versas. So it was just cool to be able to go out and you know, killing the bear it was it was bonus, but it wasn't.

And then things were pretty intense. You know, two, understand the context of this situation when you're when you're trailing a wounded animal, it's been left overnight, and you see a gut pile and nowear automatically you know that animals has been something has preyed upon it. And your first thought was Gris because I mean, this is Gurrias country. Four of them this week. We saw four within two miles of that bear, and so you're in a real serious you're in a precarious situation at that point if

it is a griz because he's gonna be guarden. He's killed. And that's and that's where you were like one of your one of your guides, I won't say his nickname, um had the gun and you said, getting a gun. Yeah, yeah, sometimes you can get kind of careless, think you know what I mean, You can get careless and that that'll kill you. So mostly now with the Grizzlies being shut down in BC, um it's gonna become more and more

of a issue with confrontations, human and animal confrontations. I think you're gonna see him go up or you will see him go up. Yeah, a lot of them. Well, the guys last night saw a big, beautiful grizz out in a spot that we've been hunting several times that I've hunted this week several times. We didn't see a gris there, but yeah there, ever we've seen him. We've seen well two adults, uh, and both of them were Stalds with cubs, So multiple, multiple grizzlies. Saw a couple

of big tracks yesterday, I mean fresh tracks. Um, they're around man, big time, Yeah, big time. So yeah, we uh need to Yeah, you just always need to be diligent with with paying attention to what's around you. I think hunting in in an area where grizzlies makes you better hunter. You know it does, because you're paying more attention to what's around and it adds something to the hunt too. I mean, grizzly is what the North Americans premier predator, right, I mean, it makes it feel like

you're in the wild. I mean they's just so cool, you know. They added dimension to any hunt, even if you're not hunting them. And even if you don't see him. I mean, that's what a big predator does, is his shadow is always there. It's always in the back of your mind. And that that really adds a lot. Yeah, it does, which is a lot of reason why you're black bear that you're stocking every day or is aware as they are. I noticed that this year more so than any other year. Um, like seeing us from two

yards away and it's like, you know, in bolting. I mean that's you know, there's years. Oh you can yeah, they you can walk right up to him. And you know, wind has been an issue always is though in the mountains of b C. When you better make your move, and you better make it fast, you know, if you can. And uh, a lot of people have a hard time doing that, you know, they they think they got to go into super stealth mode. Mostly stick guys. Yeah, you

gotta run, yeah, as quietly as you can. Yeah. Well, guys, we've been talking for about fifty two minutes. Um, it's uh closing thoughts here, Dave, what what would you what would you say to uh? I don't know what would you say to a young traditional archer getting into it? I would just say, hey, love it, love it for what it is, play it out and just live it because it's it's a wonderful, wonderful way to shoot a

born arrow. And uh yeah, man, just live it and enjoy every every minute you have with it, because it's not always going to hang around, right, So I'd say, live it, love it. It's good. Jeff, I would say, don't compare your you know, if you're getting in starting in a traditional archery, I wouldn't, don't compare yourself to what you're seeing on YouTube or what you're seeing on the internet social media, because you're not you know, you're all.

All you're seeing on on online is success if it's stacking up animals, and success is what your goal is. And probably don't shoot a tread bow. But if you like being out there with something simple, I mean, you can kill a lot of stuff, whether you you know, it takes time, it's not overnight, mostly with instinctive shooting. However you decide to shoot, but enjoy it and don't don't put the pressure on yourself that you have to

meet up to somebody who's shooting lots of stuff. You know, you remember, um that article of Jane went over wrote and PBS it's called instant bull hunter. Look it up sometime. I mean, it's the perfect perfect way to write about um, instant bull hunting. People that want to be instantly successful. Yeah yeah, you gotta read that something's wrong. It's the

wrong thing. Yeah yeah, traditional stuff. But yeah yeah. And I think that goes back to the motivations of why, I mean, you don't get into traditional bull hunting because you want to kill more stuff. That's for dangsher. I mean,

it's self imposed limitation. You've chosen. You've got this whole wide world of North American honey in front of you, or whatever opportunity you have, whether it's white tails in your backyard or whether it's you're in BC and can hunt all these critters or in Alaska, and you you choose how you want to craft your hunting space, you know. And so you're like, you know what, I've done this, I've done this. I want to choose this limitation and let that be my weapon and become a traditional archer.

And uh, it changes you, and it it uh And and what I've always said, I think already said it today, is that in a world when in office in authenticity. It's prevalent. I mean, you know when you can take a single photograph, one second capture of your life and edit it and doll it up, and I'm speaking metaphorically but also literally put it on to social media and that becomes your brand. Like basically, you can forge. You can forge an image that's not real. That's what I'm saying.

I'm not saying everybody does that. I have an Instagram account, I have Facebook. I mean, like, I'm doing this kind of stuff, but in a world that is full of inauthenticity, and people perceive that you can't fake being a traditional archer, you know what I mean. In in closing, I think and in the trade guys that are here and there's a few of us, there's nothing you will never your life will be changed when you kill your first animal with with a stick, because you'll go this can happen.

And I believe that that when that happens, and something for some people took me a few years before I did. But when that happens, I don't know that you ever go back because that challenge is so satisfying. It's gratifying to see what you did. And then yeah, I don't think anyway. Jake would probably agree with me, and Dave and you, I don't know. But for me it was because I had shoulder problems big time. I gotta get surgery.

I had a compound brought up to me last year, a new hoit that I shot ten arrows through, and I have zero. I like compound guys. I want them in my camp because they're efficient and effective and uh but yeah, it just felt so weird to me. In fact, I couldn't even shoot it really well. I'm so used to coming and going and I couldn't sit there and holder I didn't know what what a bubble was like for leveling. It was just so I mean, I would do it. Took me a lot long time to be

proficient with that, which is crazy. So they're skilling both. But yeah, yeah, it's good right on. Well, thanks guys, it's been a pleasure to share camp with both of you, for real, it has I'm just quite sure. Thanks for coming up, but it's your last day. So yeah, we gotta go kill a bear, and we gotta we gotta go get one. Keep the wild places wild because that's where the bears live.