Manitoba Legend with Tom Ainsworth

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Bear Foundation. They are a nonprofit hunting conservation organization that's given a voice to bear hunters out west. Check them out, hey. On this podcast, we're back up again with Tom Ainsworth in Manitoba, Canada, and we talked to Tom about his life, about some of his stories, and it may be even a lot like the podcast recorded with him last year. We may have even told some of the same stories, but I wanted to hear him again from Tom. We also talk about the big buck that that I killed

it there just a few days ago. So you're gonna enjoy this podcast with with a true Canadian character and in my mind the legend Tom Ainsworth. A lot of people may be listening to this podcast and they have dreamed of doing a Canadian whitetail hunt. I want to say that this hunt with Tom grand View is a lot more financially doable than you probably think. Whatever number that you're thinking in your mind for what one of

these hunts should cost. This hunt is a lot less And let me tell you I told Chris with Tom. Finding Tom has been like finding a bird nest on the ground. This is a great hunt. I've been up there three years and taking three exceptional deer. So check out check out grand View Outfitters and go to their website, find a contact information. At least called Tom and talked to him. Today's November seven, and we're in Manitoba, Canada, north of grand View, and it has been ice cold

for a couple of boys from Arkansas. Has it been cold? It's cool for us, cold for you? Sure? Yeah. It's been uh low temperatures this week so far. I've been like two degrees or three degrees as a little seventeen our degrees, yeah, seventeen for our Canadian listeners. Our US listeners have no idea what seventeen degrees celsius is. But uh, I think the high temperature we've had all week that has been like twenty degrees. That's really the the way to tell how cold it is. But I've got Tom

Ainsworth with me. Tom. I've known Tom for several years now. This is my third year coming up here in whitetail hunt with you. And then I've got my longtime buddy, Chris Roberts. Chriss. Chris and I have known each other since grade school and so he and I have been up here hunting. Um, Tom, tell me about the big buck on the wall over here, tell me tell me you kind of gave me the extended version. But uh,

hanging on Tom's walls as a deal. I'm not gonna tell how big the deer was, but just like what frame of mind you're in, and I kind of want to paint a picture for people of how Canadian whitetail hunting was in the in the eighties. I assume that was, So tell me the story of that, dear. There were

some big deer around. We're finding some real big sheds, and uh I knew a place where they were, where nobody hunts, and it's about a mile and a half from where I live right now, and uh so I went over there to see if I could get one. Uh my gun in them days, I ran a fifty and my wife bought it for me in about nineteen seventy two. And anyways, uh it was a good gun. You could you know, you could break an egg with it or make bullets touch at a hundred yards quite easy.

But anyways, I went over there looking for a big deer and there's about eight of them come out of off of a fence line, out of a big bush, off of a fence line, into a field of stubble in the fall time. What were they coming into? Wheat stubble, stubble just like yours today? Yeah, just like where is that wheat stubble grow? Is it wheat? That's growing wheat for flour? And actually that where you shot yours today was half a mile from where I shot that one. Yes,

just across the road from where you shot it. So anyways, Uh, I went out there and there's a bunch of there's some dos and calves, and I mean, we didn't have numbers like you're seeing nowadays. We maybe would have four or five animals, and the numbers were down, I guess. But anyways, Uh, I was looking for a big deer. Uh, this buck come across. I was sitting in the fence line, just in some little rose bushes. We'd call it down

wind eighty yards down. This buck come across a little field with his head down, and uh, he didn't look that big, and uh, because his head was down to the starting the snow. And anybody knows that when a deer runs the horns and not go all up in the air, and he actually looks bigger than he is, I would say, but when their heads down and it's sewing, it was good. But I thought it was small. So I watched it for twenty minutes, and it was eighty

yards away, just fading. Yep. What time of year was it? Uh, there was snow on the ground, so it would be a little later than this, you know, I mean, let's just he was just he was traveling with him animals, and so I looked at it for twenty minutes and thought, well, you know, it's the best one out here tonight. So I shot it. And then when I went over there, I realized that the horns were two ft off the ground, and so that made quite a difference, and it was

a good deal. It was two inches and the thing was our dog, where you guys are staying our dog there. He brought shed horns into the yard that were pretty well in exact match for that. He brought one into the yard and I walked out to the field beside the house there and the other one was there. But we had some real big bucks in our day in this country. They're they're good quality, deary heavy beam, very heavy.

I would say Double Bros. From Triple Bros. Yeah, Chris described that dear just like, how would you describe that dear massive? I mean, it's it kind of takes your breath away when you see it. Um, I mean I would have super mass, Yeah, super mass. I mean we just I don't want to give I don't know what you want to give away. I mean it's kind of hard to of what happened today. So I mean because that I've got that buck on my mind, so it's kind of hard to think I should have went and

looked at it before. But it's got I mean, it's a very beautiful deer. I mean it's a very double drop I really I can't think of but there's probably in the inside maybe Yeah, it's it's it's it's got double double drop times. It's a main frame tin with as big a mass as you'll see and several kickers on it. Right, So we went and looked at it with you. It's a very majestic type. I mean it's it's just very Yeah, it's a beast. So the cool part of that story is you didn't think it was

very big. It probably was on a two hundred and seventy pound frame or or three hundred. I think the cool part is is he watched it for twenty minutes and then I shot it with a fifty which is which is a varmit gun. How do I mean it would drive attack? There was nothing to it, and in them days, that's all I had. Yeah, it wasn't you just dropped. No, he made a little tight circle there for us yards and that was it. Your lung. Shoot him,

we'll see. I think that story tells the story of Canadian white tail hunting pretty good because in the eighties, in the early eighties, Chris nobody knew about Canadian white tail hunting except the Canadians in the in the in the hype of whitetail hunting and the frenzy that was going on in the States had really yet to spread up here, and so like, there wasn't that much value put on that animal. I mean, you were just like, Hey, this is a good buck, gonna have a lot of

meat for my family. And you were just getting started white tail outfitting and so, I mean, you knew that this was an incredible animal. But but you know, but my first hunters that come in here forty five years ago, Uh, they just come in here and shoot a large animal.

I mean it wasn't you know. They're coming from Texas at that time, and they you know, the zero we're big up here and massive deer, like we have mass and that and we and right now the mass is coming back because there's been so many years since, you know, the hard winters and that, and it's just like you're seeing today. We're seeing a lot of good quality deer here now. And next year is going to be better as far as I'm concerned. It's just gonna be bigger

deer and better. And it's you know, we've seen a lot of good quality bucks around. Yeah. Well so kind of the story of Manitoba. It was that in the eighties and nineties up there, the mid early two dousands, I mean, the white tail hunting would have been just incredible, and then you had a tough stretch where the population went down, but now it's coming back. It took time. Yeah,

they've got to grow up. And you told me something last year that since the kind of the hype and white tail craze from America came here, now you have more resident Canadian hunters. Is that? Is that correct? You don't have a lot. I'm not saying you have the pressure that we have, but there's more guys that are interested in it. People know what they've got when they see a huge And the thing is now everybody is getting to word. They know what a one seventy buck is.

You know, they just look at it. Do you know it's got to be so white. You know, you've gotta have ten inch tanks. You know, it's got to be a five by five and it just seems to be everybody knows that. It's I hate to say it, it's not like bear hunting. Yeah, you know, it's it's people look at it and they can figure it out. Yeah, and so it makes a big difference. Yeah, and uh, you know, we're lucky the big buck was shot in Saskatchewan as far as I'm concerned, because if it would

have came here, it might have ruined our industry. And we're just do you know what he means by that? Saskatchewan it's the world record in ninety four came from Saskatchewan and which is sixty miles from here. It's not even sixty miles from here. And I'm glad it was there because everybody went there, and it's just like a lot of places they're paying, you know, you're paying I don't know nowadays, but don't matter five or seven thousand dollars. It's kind of was the going right long time ago.

So you know, I'm glad it went there personally, because if it would have come in here, you would have, you know, a red hat and every tree. Well it's like this, and we didn't hear another gun shot. Yeah, yeah, it's like, here are our hunters so far, haven't seen another hunter, haven't heard a gun shot, and yet we're seeing quite a few bucks and good numbers of deer

in that. And uh, that's where I would go hunting, and that's where I you know, you've got to do treat people and stuff the way you'd like to be treated. And I think that's just what a person wants when you go somewhere and stuff. You know, you're in the law, you know, the last wilderness. Yeah, yeah, describe to me. I think a lot of people that have not hunted Canada kind of kind of like Texas has its own

white tail culture. You know, if you go to Texas, you're gonna be hunting these mesquite flats over a deer feeder or sindaro's that have been spread with corn. You're gonna see a bunch of small bodied deer with huge racks. Like there's a hunting culture in Texas. There's the same

thing in Canada, except very vastly different, completely different. Let's describe for people what Canadian white too uns, because I think there's a misconception that I had, which was that Canadian white tail hunting is negative ten degrees all the time. Now it's been cold here, snow on the ground all the time, which we've not. We've had it with just a skiff of snow on the ground all day. Sits I mean, kind of it's kind of a grueling picture sometimes,

but that's not necessarily what I'm saying. You can make it that if you wanted to, and if you came in late November, yeah, you're gonna be hunting in snow and cold. But describe like just a typical hunt, how you would just do normal hunters. Well, a typical hunt for me is First of all, we try to accommodate our clients. So by doing that, Uh, we have huts, heated huts. I'm a tall person myself, so we have them.

Also the you know, a six ft man or I'm over that can walk through the door, standing up in our huts, throw up off the ground. They can be heated in uh, muscle older season for no, I mean you could have it raining and stuff like that. Guy's really on lots of yours. Well, you're at least you can at your day in hunting, you know what I mean. You don't have to get wet, you can you're being

comfortable and you can hunt. And the more hours you can put into the stand for an outfitter, as far as I'm concerned, Uh, the more success rates you're gonna have. And it was just like today, we kind of had the idea, were coming in at ten o'clock this morning, but you had the idea, Clay, I'm gonna stay out till noon. And by staying out till noon, we hit that old you know time next time from ten to two. And just because of the time of year when ruts

on and starting and all that. Hey, you've seen a lot of bucks. You shot a beautiful buck at eleven o'clock in the morning and most people are either having lunch or having a nap or stuff like that. But it's about choice, you know. How much you want to put in is how much you get back. But you know, up here the weather can be real cold. You know, are quite cold, and uh, we've had it in when I started, not we had a guy that come from Texas up here and in dear season. He was sitting

back here in the park with a white T shirt on. Wow, and the bull elk walked up behind him and bugled, you know, and it just shows you, Uh, it's weather and we can't predict it. Yeah, you just you know, I like the cold coming from Arkansas. To me, if if I came up here and we were comfortable, Chris, it wouldn't have been a hunt. I mean to me that every hunt has some element of challenge and testing, and here it's the cold, you know. So this is the fourth day of a sixth day hunt and I did.

I killed it this morning and we'll go into detail. I'll tell the story. And there's no heater or involved with you. No heater. So for three days I bow hunted, and I was using my my tethered tree saddle hanging out of a little poplar about eight inches in diameter, just taking it in the face with temperatures. I don't know how cold it was afternoon hunting, but one day I got in there about eleven thirty and set tel six o'clock and the wind was blowing at you and

it was cold. Yeah, it was. It was probably fifteen degrees. With this cold, I was cold in a box blode. Yeah. I woke up this morning and I looked in the mirror and I looked like at age ten years and it wears you down. I will say, if you do come up here and make sure you have the gear. If it's yeah, it's easy to bring with you, bring it with you. It's eat Like anybody phones me, I'll say, hey, bring it with you. If you don't need it, don't put it on, but bring it close with you. It's

better to have. And and I'll say this about being up here with with you know, with Tom, it's you know, it's almost like you're being treated his family. And that that's been amazing. That's how that's how I think the overfitting business should be. You've got to become family with your clients. And know, like me, I never went to a shoal. So really what I do is hunt family least it's called, and that is I have to have You got to be satisfied, and when you're satisfied, you

bring your brother or your father or your friend. And another advantage to that is when you've got good people, don't look for people because good people breed good people, so you don't have to worry about it. If you've got a good person, there's a very good chance his friends and that are just as good as him. So it's a way, you know, but I never did went to a show, So we have to have satisfied clients and you you try to just treat people the way

you would like to be treated in life. It's just simply and it it's worked for us for forty five years. You know, well, let's just be accommodating. It's you can hunt all day or you you know, you can will come pick you up and were here and you're not a number. And that's kind of the way that we've done it. In in this being my third year, I kind of to know the farm and know the different stands and it's it's a blast because you know we're

kind of partnering together. You know, you're asking me what I think. I love that, I mean that's what I want. I don't but we to give a little like usually we're hunting in the mornings, three or four hours, come in and have lunch and then get back in the stands is I mean, if you're taking it serious, you want to get back in the stand as quick as post.

But there's no pressure to do that. I mean, you know, if we had wanted to just hunt the last couple of hours a daylight, we could have in the we're seeing a lot of deer. That that's the other misconception I think people have about Canada is that you don't see the deer numbers. At least that's what I thought. We're seeing a ton of dude. I think different with me compared to a lot of outfitters. Is I owned my own private land. Yeah, so I've got my own

six decres along the Duck Mountain Park. I've got access to other people's land along here, and so I give you a different kind of a hunt. If you don't have land, and that way you have to hunt bush hunt in the mountain and that when you bush hunt in the mountain. Um, it's good hunting, but it's a different style again, you know what I mean. Yeah, it's totally forested and you get up there and you might sit all day and you might see one or two or three deer, uh stuff like that. But behind my

place there's about sixty miles of provincial park. There's no road. The first road is twenty five miles up. There's one road that goes through it. So it's location. We're gonna we're gonna have to go back there. You know. I've never been back in there to the ducks. Yeah, well, one day we're gonna have to go for a drive. Well, we can go for a drive anytime you want up here, because my last guys in they went right through the edge and come out and swan river another side and

drove around just to see it. And like in our mountain here, uh, twenty five miles from here, for example, it's a little over twenty eight miles or whatever. But twenty miles up, we've got great lakes to fishing. Guys. We've got great trout, you know, and stuff like that. Now, stranglers are you know, pretty easy to get. So it's there's good fishing. You know what people want to if they're Tagg don't want to go fishing or something like that,

you can and stuff like that too. Well, we're down here and what you guys call the settlement you call the park now, what you're calling park, we would call national forests ron lists, Yeah, crown land, national forest. It's just public land and uh, and then the settlement down here is relatively flat, kind of rolling, but Agg country. I mean we're looking today, where I was sitting, I could see half a mile across the wheat field probably and you could actually see twenty miles to the next

Riding Mountain National Park. Yeah, it's twenty miles across. Yeah. Yeah, and it's yeah, and so it's to me that's really neat because it's coming from Arkansas eastern deciduous forest. We can't see very far in most places we hunt. We have you know, cattle pasture in some places. But to me, it's really fun to be on these crop fields and uh, to just have these big grain fed deer, maybe not grain fed, but they're eating some beans, but a lot of a lot of wheat, a lot of we're just

on the It's just like where we are. When you drop off my land here on the south side, you hit grain country. Yeah, it's just that simple. So I'm right on this edge between the bush and agriculture, and uh, the worst of it is nowadays. Well everybody's taking the fence lines out and getting rid of the bush and stuff like that. And it's just like when I come up in here, there's only twenty seven acres broke on this back quarter or land a hundred sixty acres there,

twenty seven acres broke. Well, we've been here for forty five years. We've owned the land for my grandpa and grandmar for a hundred and I never broke another acorn here. Because when I leave this area, your country, Uh, it's gonna be the way it came. And I think, if anything, it will be improved, you know what I mean. But I don't believe in knock countries down. If somebody wants to buy it and do it, that will be their

choice with time. But we're gonna, you know, leave it to our kids and they will have that opportunity and they can do what they want. You know. It's they're lucky to have that. Yeah, yeah, so your your grandparents had this place a hundred years ago, turn of the century. Where were they from England? They actually migrated yep, from England. They come over to Canada nineteen and that, and they

come over here. And you know, if you really think about it, the closer you are up here to the park, the poorer the people are, and the poorer the land is, and the poorer everything is. You know, that's the It's just how it is. And so you know, when you're poor people, you get pushed up to the poor lantern along the park and yeah, I'm glad they did. Yes, you know, Tom, I can I can envision you being a tall, lanky guy walking down the street in London,

you know, I kind of see as an Englishman. Now that now that you say that, um, well, that's that's incredible. Before we get to my buck story, which we'll we'll talk about that, I got a couple of questions for you. What's your favorite dear rifle for hunting up here? So we're talking about big bodied white tails, you know, deer between top end three hundred mature buck to thirty ish big animals. Just your favorite, not what you'd tell somebody else.

Just what does Tom ains Worth carry if he's white tail deer hunting up here? I care? Actually at two seventy, yes, I've got quite a few guns, you know, I've got three hundred weather Bees and all lot, but uh I have a two seventy. I think you should carry any gun you can shoot well with. You've got to shoot well with it. Uh At two seventy could be light, but I mean also I can take and make two shells touch at a hundred yards, two bullets, and uh so that's your gun. A choice, That's what I use.

It's just what I started out with, really, you know, was I got into two seventys. But probably if I were to look at it nowadays, I might I might step it up to a probably something like a three hundred meg okay, because if you want to, it's how good of a shot yard? But I think you should

be able to shoot good to three hundred yards. Let me tell you in this country, because you guys are shooting three hundred yards with a muzzle loader and you're getting nice bucks and so you know, and the only problem at two seventis great and they're flat shooting and great, but you're shooting the Jack O'Connor was a hund and thirty greens a lead, and I shoot one forty because it'll tighten my group up with an inter bond bullet,

and that's why I do it. But you know, I appreciate a hundred forty grain inter bond out of your testet and you bit and tell me what that bullet is designed to do. It's designed not to blow up. Is it's not like a barn that is a very hard shell. It goes right through. It's not a bullet as soon as it touches something that blows up. Uh, Expanding at the right time is very important. And the inter bond will it goes in, it expands and it puts a good exit on the outside and leaves a

blood trail and stuff like that. But if you get something that hits something hard and blows up, you need enough penetration. So if you happen to hit a shoulder blade or something, you know what I mean. Yeah, but that's why I would go to like nowadays, I would go to a bit heavier caliber because I'm using it on deer, but I use it on moose and elk and stuff like that. To a yeah, yeah, Okay, what sorry, what what would you use for ELK? Well, I use I use my two seventy, but right right now, I

use it depends on the location where you're hunting. If it's nice and clothes shots, it's one thing. But if I figure it's uh gone to get out, like to a three or four hundred yards shot, and I want knockdown while I take my three, weather be a But otherwise a seven mag would of all the guns if I were to put him up, A thirty ot six is probably a great all round gun because it's very versatile on the monel that you can get. It's a poor man's magnum, that's my opinion, but it's good. It's

very That's what I bought my son. Okay, six, you bet I bought him a thirty at six because I had the two seventy and I thought we needed to step up, so I got him a thirty ot six. But anything between a thirty out six to yeah, it'd be a it'd be a great gun. Yeah. Okay, okay, I'm switching. I'm switching topics a little bit too. Why old game cooking? Tom is a He is an expert when it comes to butcher and well, Deb's the cook. Tom's getting the credit here, but no, Deb's getting the credit.

But as far as butcher in and Tom, what is your go to? If I was asked this question, and I so, I'm gonna ask you the same question. If you had one way to cook white tail deer, how would you cook it? If you just had one? Well, my, that's not that's a very hard crap. It's not fair,

he says, because there's two different things. If you'll give you two, Okay, if I wanted my favorite dish, And we take backstrap and we call a Kentucky fight batch strap and a guy by the name of Mickey Melton from Houston, Texas come up here about forty five years ago. And uh, the way we do it is we cut our backstrap a little over a quarter of an inch thick a thick quarter inch. We take and take the course side of a meat hammer and patty it out

on both sides. We sprinkle that with lori, season salt, black pepper, and a bit of garlic. And loss is just kind of garlic, our own garlic, oh, just minced garlic. Well, we powder our own garlic. We dehydrated dry it and our own garlic powder. So you put that on both sides. And if you're going to deep fry this, you take some oil and you can use anything from Connola oil to peanut oil or whatever. And you could put a half inch in a patter, an inch or whatever turns

your crankcake. And then if you're gonna deep fry something, you have to batter it. So you put flour in a dish. And then what you're gonna do is take for every person you might say, you put one egg, so if you've got far people, you put four egg in there and uh cream or milk or egg no aug or something like that. The thicker you want it, the thicker the product you use. Now I'm gonna have to try that. No, it's good, and uh you bet.

You take your eggs and you whip them with your will say cream, and then you double uh you're gonna deep fry it, so you double battered. So we take the meat and we go into the flour first on both sides, back into your we'll say cream or egg and milk back into the flour, and then you put it in and you just let it come to a golden brown, which don't take very long and it's so tender. Uh, it's good. It's good. And then just another way of

doing meat is this is your second favorite. Yeah, if I were to do something else, especially depends on how tough your media is, okay, But another way of just doing it is is to can it like my grandma did. And all you did was take court stealers out. You take steak or good like a like a court mason jar. You bet court sealers, that's what you're calling. And then you just take your we use steak or some good quality meat, of course, no fat on it, no sinew on it. You cut it into one by two or

whatever squares you take and put it in. You take some salt, You take pepper, and a little bit of garlic, and I don't mean much, maybe half a teaspoon of each.

You put it in a dish. And what you do is you start take your meat at the bottom and touch it and put it in the bottom, and as you come up, you touch it and touch it instead of pouring it all on top with the top few pieces of so salty and that you can't eat, Okay, So you're you're seasoning as you're putting little chunks of meat in there, and you know what you mean by touch it? Yeah, yeah, So put the salt, pepper and garlic in. Let's say, on each little piece as you

put it in the jar, what you mean how many? Okay, just once in a while, pardon? How many pieces in the jar? And then do you do is take a plastic cup or something to keep pushing it down, pushing it down. You add no water, nothing to this, and you can put peck to two ways of putting jelly into a product. One is pecton. You add a little pecton. If you want to do it the old style, you'll take a chicken's foot that's cleaned, you don't really and you put it in there and it's natural pectin and

it'll completely gell a court sealer of meat. And then all you do is I use turkey friar cooker, put water in it, um cooking for three and a half to four hours, let it cool off. Then you have jellied meats, jellied chicken like a jellied ham or something you buy, but it's jelly chicken. You can eat it cold and it's you know when it's tinder, Oh, it's it's sure it's canned, and so what do you what do you how how would you primarily use that? It would kind of be jellied, so it would be like

I kind of have the white ish stuff. It's kind of yellow, but it's jellied. And then you can take it out and just eat it when it's cool and it's great. Or if you wanted something quick, you could take that out, put it in a frying pan and heat it up, add a little bit of something to it, and so you can just fry it or use in stew, use it and stews, use it in lots of things, and so it's pre cooked. I'm gonna have to try that, but I do. You're gonna use the chicken foot. But

see that's tradition. Before you add pecked in and stuff. You have to work with what you got. And that's one thing that it will do. Because if anybody's ever can chicken, you'll find out you don't need to put pecked in or nothing in it because it's natural in the bones. Huh yeah, Okay, that's good. And you really like to You like to grind your meat too, like you got you get a lot of ground ground meats. You butcher your own elk, kill elk on this property,

but your own alk, but your own deer. Yeah yeah. Do you kill moose on this property? Not now, but we used to do, used to bull moose and that was standing my gateway. But no, the populations don't. But other ways we'd see moose right out of our yard all the time. You know, we see and l can hear you see elk. We still see r elk. Yeah yeah. Okay, another change of topic. I'm trying to I'm trying to like categorize all these things I've learned from hanging around

with Tom. Okay, let's talk about your trick for cleaning dear skull. Yeah. So so last year, uh well, twice I have taken a close, a complete skull out of Manitoba. And because of the c w D area, you can't take brain matter with you. It's got to be a clean skull. And so what do we do. We we get because we kill these deer and we gotta leave pretty quick, so you don't have a lot of time. We want to take the whole skull. And there's I should say one thing before we give you the answer.

Here in some areas you can't you can't take your you can't take your skullar. You gotta clean, you know. But on the west side of three sure our road, we don't have to take no samples off. Yeah there's no Yeah, there's no cdbuts But what I did I learned from one of my clients, was all you do is there's a hole on the back of the skull, and we run our air compressors up to about a twenty pounds pressure, and uh, you can take a screw driver in there and work it a little bit, or

you probably don't have to. You just insert a little copper hose in there and pull the trigger once and the heads clean. You didn't see it, is Chris, okay, So what you do. What you do is you you get a bucket. What we did, We get a bucket and you kind of tilt the antlers back so that the whole the hall on the back of the skull, where the final column connects to the skull, you tilt

tilt that down into the bucket. And then Tom's got his air compressor going, and he's got a little custom fitting that has a little copper Probably the brains out of mind, I was thinking, where's their compressor. Well we cut we cut yours to make like a flat European mount. But so he's got this little quarter inch copper tube that he just bent up to make a little curl at the end. Well, you hold those horns, boy, you better make sure the hole's pointing down, and you just

hook that. You put the little copper hook up into the hole. Probably an inch and a half two inches, Okay, you maybe even go all the way to the back if you're hooks long enough, and just like that one and that inside of that brain cavity, you could eat Chinese food off of it as your fingers down into the bucket. I mean it. The only way it goes is out of that hole, because that's the only place. And if you're if you're standing behind it, you so if you if you were, you know, wherever you pointed

that hole, that brain is going that way. You've got brain matter on it. Yeah, So anyway pointed down the bucket. Done deal. It's it's the simplest way. And it works on beer skulls too, you see. Yeah, we used it on bear skulls and stuff because it's becomes it's pretty hard to get that out there clean and so it's so easy to just do this and you just like that. I learned that quite a few years ago when I've told a few people, but not too many. It works great,

but it does work. It really does work. Great. Um okay, man, I keep I'm I'm bouncing around, Tom what okay, before we get into my the story of my dear tips for what do you tell people about judging white tails? I'm I'm bouncing here? What what? Why do you tell

somebody that comes up here for judging white towns? Because I have I've been up here three years and brought three different groups of people with me, and in every year there's been kind of a judging mishap if you could call it that, or just a surprise, not a mishap, but a surprise. Well, it depends on where you come from to eight. Yeah, and the reason being is like myself, I went to Mexico and hunted, and all the deer looks so big. But what I didn't realize a mature

bucktown there was about ninety pounds. So when you throw a one head, which I got, you put that on a ninety pounder. I was shocked. But then when I went over and just picked him up and set him on the back of the bike. I realized how it was. So that's why my first clients came from Texas. And you've got to realize that mature bucks up here, away from what I'm being honestly, from two and fifty pounds to two seventy is a great buck, but you do

get three hundred. So what happens is it's so hard to judge ahead on two seventy pound buck to you know, compared to something that if you you come from an area with a hundred pound bucks or even hundred and fifty, it throws you off that ratio. But you know, for judging deer, as far as I'm in certain, it's got to be it don't have to be passed his ears to be a bookhead or a good one around here because we have mass. You you know, it's nice to get.

I guess you might say it's you want something with a twenty inch beam on it. Twenty four is better, of course, and you've got to look for ten inch tanks, uh, look for long brow tangs and stuff like that. But if you get into mass up here, it just depends. I'm a person that likes mass I'm not really interested in the numbers too much. It couldn't be a three by three or a four by four or five by five or six by six. But if it's got mass, that's what I like. And you get hunters. The mass

means maturity. Yes, you've got mature. Yeah, you've got to and you get a real you know, you get it. You don't get lots of times, you don't get a chance to look at your deer too long. A lot of times where I am here, we do have that advantage where you can look at a deer quite a bit to kind of judge your size. It's not like they're just running into or out of site and you've

got to make a split decision, you know. And our deer here they're not quite wild, you know, they're not as wild as a lot of places where they here a door stop or this. And it's because we don't have hunting pressure in my area. Like we've hunted here muszloader a while ago. And if you come up here in archery season, well you probably will see pretty basically nobody. But in muszloader season here we usually don't see another hunter.

We don't see another red hat. We it's it's very quiet, and that gives you a big opportunity, uh to get something good because you've got no and you can leave here. We have lots of hunters that leave here in the last week rightful season or second last week, and to leave a buck here that's it could be a one fifty buck or one six and they will leave it here because they know when they come back next year it's still here. Yeah. So once you get to be

a mature hunter, it's not all killing. It's if you want something, you gotta wait till it gets coming you. You know, you're managing it or trying to manage it in So that's why it's like where we are, it's a great area to hunt. I think it is. Yeah, you know, I think that the thing that I would tell people, and Chris, we're gonna talk about your whole story and a different podcast or driving home, so I

don't want to get into your deal. But the real issue is for a hunter to be able to determine the body size of a mature buck up here, because like this morning, maybe it would be a good segue into my story. This morning, I saw a ten point buck that for his body size his antlers looked good, like if you would have and it was a two year I believe it was a two year old buck.

If if somebody would have mistaken that two year old ten point for a four or five or six year old ten point body size, just the way his body looked, they would have shot him and thought they were shooting a hundred deer. And when I first saw the deer, I thought, oh boy, and then quickly I was like, that's a two year old deer. He was. He was shorter, but he was still thick. He still had a big neck. His horns went out to his ears. They looked like

they had a little bit of mass. But when he turned his head, his main beams didn't come out to the end of his nose. His main beams went out to about halfway between his eye and his nose. And then when he turned and looked, his horns were inside of his ears. And then as times I could tell were about five inches long. And you know, I got the idea that this is a He was fourteen inches wide, had five inch times, and probably had three and a

half to four inches of math. You know, probably not even a hundred and twenty dear but I think a guy could shoot that deer thinking that he was shooting a big one up here, because uh, I think we kind of uh get psyched out a little bit um with these deer because their bodies are so big, especially coming from a place where a good buck is a hundred fifty sixty pounds, where these bucks are a hundred pounds more than what we're used to Shooting a big

rack doesn't always look so impressive on such a big deer.

For instance, this morning, and maybe this is where I can start and telling my story, I went to a stand this morning that well, first of all, we've been hunting a place we called the dugout, which is basically a food plot four acre food plot, and in uh fall Rye and uh two days ago I was hunting in there with a tree saddle in my bow, and I the last two years and I don't know what I'm gonna do if I come back, but the last two years I've bow hunted for a couple of days

and then switched to the muzzleloader when I realized what I was up against. Um, and I was bow hunting and I had a very nice ten point come in right at dark on the second day, I believe it was a hundred forty point younger deer, but just a dandy, and he came into fifty yards and I actually drew on him, couldn't get him to stop. Was getting dark. Didn't shoot hunting in there the next day, the third day, for six hours. That was when I got so cold. This morning I came back and I said, hey, I'm

I'm gonna shoot the muzzloader. And uh, kind of what I've made this hunt for me to be is, you know, every hunt I do, I find a way to challenge and limit myself, you know. And some some hunts I'm using the traditional boat just because it's you know, that's where I want to find the challenge. Sometimes I'm using the compound bowl. Like up here, it's a pretty big deal to kill a deer with a compound boat. That's

where I wanted the challenge. Well, midway through the hunt, I decided I wanted the challenge to be just taking a nice deer with whatever method in its muzzloader season. So we went to this stand over here that is that the could you describe where that stand is? Just

kind of the terrain features. Uh, it's a it's basically a fence line which is a mile long, or a cut line, Sindaryl and uh, we have I own fos on it's three quarters of land on it, and uh, it's just set up where you can look down this for you know, it's kind of rolling land in there, you see, but you can look down the fence line as far as you can shoot four yards, yeah range, I think it's four hundred yards you can see down with bush on both sides and about a forty yard.

It looks like a pipeline or something. It's probably yeah, like you said about that wide. But anyways, and then you're on a bush line there and it just set up like a t system. It's a funnel system. Everything comes together at that corner. So we've got to stand there. And it worked before, but that's where you got your big one with a bowl and it just it just works. And the reason you that sometimes is a wind direction.

If you've got a strong west wind, the deer aren't gonna stand outen that wind and take that pressure, so they go behind the bush, which is that side the east side, So they go behind the bush or out of the wind, just like yourself. You know, you get out of the wind. Well, that's what they try to do is get out of the wind, have something to eat. So that's why they'll come out there. But they come out are all the time anyways, of course. But I mean you're getting into rut. So the you know, if

you've got the girls and boys will come. It's kind yeah. So it's a it's a it's a corner in a huge wheat field. So in this stand I'm sitting in, I can see what feels like a half a mile. It's a half a half a mile. I'm looking at a huge wheat field and it's at the corner of two two blocks of just heavy timber and then this

sendero that we're talking about. So so I can look to my right and I can see four yards down to Sindario through the bush bushes you know we call it, we call it woods and call it bush up here. And then in front of me, I'm looking at a huge wheat field. And uh. The thing about to me that spot is that there's not really concentrated food like where I was sitting at the dugout. I'm looking at the foek or food lot. Deer coming in from all over to that four acres. I'm looking at this huge

section land. They could they could feed anywhere. And uh so this morning, Tom, I walked in there before daylight. You dropped me off and I walked down the fence line, and first of all, I was so loud walking in there. I mean just the just the snow crunch, and you you just feel like you're just running everything off, you know. And uh walked all the way back in there, and then you climb up in the stand and you're making all kind of racket, you know. I've got stuff hanging

off of me. I got tripods and this big old gun and opening that opened that door, and I mean, you just feel like when you get in there that you've spooked every critter on the planet off. I get in there, open the windows on that on that blind and uh, I gotta admit, I don't know what I was thinking. I guess I was just trying to get comfortable. But I didn't even put a primer in my gun. Uh it was loaded, but it was loaded, but I didn't even have a four or nine primary in it.

And I'm sitting in there and kind of getting my just bearings. And it gets daylight and I look out there, and I see a doe and two year lens at about two h yards that have been feeding this whole time. I mean, they certainly heard me walk in there and didn't care. And so I'm watching them, and it's a dough in two year lens and it's getting close to

the rut November seven. But she's clearly not in Estrius because she's still got her got her funds with her, and so I mean, I'm just kind of like, guy, well, it's nice to have a few deer out in front of me. I don't know what I did after that, but I just took my sweet time, didn't even have the gun loaded, didn't have anything up, and I turned back to my left just about the time you could

see good enough to tell what a buck was. And a buck had come half a mile across that field and was standing forty yards from that dough, just staring her down. And I just see a buck, and I could tell it. It was a big body there, and I just go, Holy smokes, and I knew from the direction that came in the way it was acting that it was a buck. It was still it actually was still too dark to see its horns. With the naked eye. I threw up my binos and I see a good rack.

I mean, and I could tell by the shape of that deer again going back to you know, I knew that it was long, it was thick. It was not a two year old deer. I mean, it wasn't a world beater, it wasn't a but And finally, and this deer is just standing like a statue watching these doughs. And boy, I go to scrambling getting that good I had to dig into the pouch to find my four or nine prices. It didn't have a pri Yeah, I

just I don't know. I guess I was just it was like a holiday, not hanging in the tree, taking the wind in the face, being in that box. I guess I just through everything religious and my you know, held it outside and had my primer and it had everything set up, and he's just I guess I just thought I was on vacation when I was sitting in that in it, I was just like, yeah, I was

just kicked back. Anyway, I go to scrambling around, find the primer, get it put in, get everything up, and it probably takes two minutes, you know, And uh, and look at this deer, and you know, we're getting into the latter half of the hunt, and you I knew your tag was filled, and so I was like, man, that's a nice deer. It was eight point but he but he was narrow, he was not wide. He didn't even go past his ears. But he had mass, you know,

and he didn't have real long times. I knew it would have just been kind of an average deer, but a mature deer. And uh, it was one of those that you're like, oh done, dude, I take that, dear, Do I not long drive back to Arkansas with a tag in your pocket? And uh, I actually drew down on it and was going to shoot. I actually started to put pressure on the trigger and he turned and rather than going into the bush where the does, he turned and went back just the way he came, which

was amazing to me that he did that. And when he turned to the left, he went in behind some brush that was about five ft ten ft from my blind and I knew I couldn't shoot through it, and so I watched the deer and anyway, I'm kind of kicking myself but also kind of glad that I didn't shoot it. And uh, I didn't you text me? I texted Tom and I said, I just couldn't get a shot on a deer, but probably should have, but it

wasn't a great deer anyway. Long story short, while that buck is coming to those does I look out on the four yards of way and there's another buck coming across the field. So it's a buck coming and going. And it was just a racked buck. I could see

it four yards that had a rack. I don't think it was big speed this story up an hour later, I see three small bucks come out of the the cut line and it was a spike, kind of a funky horn dear that he he had just like a unicorn horn and a regular side, but he was a two year old deer thin horn. And then that nice two year old tin point that I that I described earlier, that you know was probably hundred fifteen inch tin point

that could have fooled somebody. And those three bucks came out of the came out in the scenario two hundred yards and walked within five ft of the blind. They just walked right past me. They sparred a little bit out there in the sunlight. It was beautiful, well because I'm not hanging in a tree taking the wind in the face. Uh. I was just comfortable in that blind. So comfortable you were, I said, let's i'll hunt til ten. Well, when it got about nine thirty, I said, I feel good.

I've seen five bucks. And I think I said I'd hunt til noon, didn't I say that. I said, I'm just gonna sit in here until noon, and then we're gonna go eat lunch quick and go to another spot. Well, um, about ten forty five. I believe it was the same dough and two year lands that I saw it. Daylight popped out again and and they just popped out in the same place they went in dough in two year lands, which in the rut that doesn't mean much because it

means it's a dough that's not been chased. They popped out and never even looked behind him. Tom, You know how if a doze being followed by a buck they stepped on the edge of a field. Boy, their ears are turning there looking behind them, their nerves of us. This dough didn't have a care in the world. The fawns didn't have a care in the world. So I was hardly even paying attention to him, it was just

nice to look out and see some deer. And uh, but I went ahead and readjusted my gun because my gun was pointing down the Sindario, because that's where I figured i'd see deer. And it's a pretty big chore to get that big muzzleloader out and turned around. And so it took me a few minutes and I got the gun pointed out this way, so it's pointed to your left. It's pointed out into the wheat field to

my left. It was pointed this way. So all these deer came out here in the wheat field where the deer was No, well, the bucks came out from the sendero, calling the sendero. It's not so. All the bucks came

from the woodpile. Yeah, the woods, the woods. Yeah. Well I'm looking out in this wheat field at these does and uh, I was distracted, so was shining, feeling good, and I just look up after a minute or two of not even looking, and look, in my goodness, the sight that every white tail deer hunter dreams of seeing in Canada, no doubt, forty yards passed the dough, just outsteps a giant buck. I mean, what to me was a giant buck. He was twice as big as that

dough looked to be. I mean a hundred pounds bigger than the dough. I mean, out of my peripheral vision, I never even really made contact with the eye contact with the buck before I was grabbing the gun getting read. I mean, it was just a no brainer, tall, times wide, heavy, big deer, and that that dough never even gave any indication that she even cared he was there, which was odd to me. Usually they, you know, they would have looked and so I mean, I'm just like, holy cow, look,

I mean, it's just a picturesque. That's why you come to Canada. Giant deer. Anyway, he's it. I know the does are at two hundred yards, so I know he's about two thirty. I know this gun. I'm using it Steve Schultz gun, my father and laws muzzleloader, custom built muzzleloader. I knew it was z Rode at two hundred, so you know, I just knew I needed to just put it.

I just put it, put it on the front shoulder, and I wasted no time because you told me, Tom, you said, if you've got time to count points, you should have been shooting. You like to pet him. That that's what Tom says. He says, I like to pet him and then we can look at the horns. And I just put it on the front shoulders quarter and to me, just a little bit boom, gun went off. We've had some trouble with primers every hunt I've been up here, somebody with me has had trouble with muzzloaders

going off in this cold weather. So I was pleased when the gun hard and uh the buck ran, which I was a little bit surprised at because I thought I thought he might drop where I put it. I may have been two inches to the right of where I was really wanting to hit him. Hit him just a little not back. I mean it hit him right behind the shoulder, but he took a big spin out into the field with his legs. He was doing the chicken leg deal and down, down, down, and bam hit

the ground. Within seconds, I was calling you, Tom, I really was, and uh it went to voicemail at first. Anyway, we go Chris. Tom goes and picks Chris up who's at the bunk house. And that's part of what's so fun about this hunt is it's it's deer camp. You got your buddies here, and Chris was waiting at the house. He came, anyway, beautiful ten point. We scored the deer today.

I scored it one fifty nine and uh well we did it in decimals, so one fifth nine point nine we're calling is a hundred and sixty inches, all right, So hundred and sixty inch on the on the money, ten point had one of the longest time was twelve inches long. It was only seventeen inches wide twenty one and a half inch main beams. But on the G three's and G four's on one side, we're both over ten inches or ten inches. Had a kicker coming off

one of the points. I mean, just a beautiful buck way two thirty pounds, which was the smallest of the deer that i've killed here body size. The buck last year scored what way two or forty eight pounds, but had a rack that would would not have scored in here with this one. Said it was just a more mature buck. Yeah, yeah, this one had great potential when you think of it, because it was a younger buck. But the potential was there when you're starting ten and

twelve inch turns. It had all the potential to be uh you know, a bookhead next Sure it would have been. It was not close. Yeah, well it kept off an incredible four or five days in hunting here really did. Wow. I was not expecting to bring home a hundred and sixty inch deer at all. What do you think of it, Chris? It's amazing, I mean it was. We've seen some really big deer. Yeah, and that deer is I mean, it's I think that's the biggest deer we've seen. Yeah, yeah,

I think so. Yeah. And that I didn't realize too that that I mean until we saw I mean, that picture didn't do it justice. The picture, Yeah, no, it didn't know. Yeah, we had one chucking picture. We didn't realize it until after we killed it. But Tom, had you set up a camera for one day in a food We got eight a picture of eight bucks, and uh, as far as I'm concerned, out of those eight, three to four of them are good ones. Yeah, you know

this kind of quality and better. Yeah. Well yeah, well we'll uh we'll have another conversation between Chris and I about his hunt um in in this kind of our Our synopsis of the week but no in closing comments or thoughts Tom what any uh? What's your What's Tom? Tom is a master at efficiency. Really, anything he does is gonna be efficient. So I want to like ask him for like a tip about something. But we got that.

We got the deer, the cooking tip, the skull clan tip. Uh, we got we just got a great lesson and the butcher and butcher and deer out here. Uh but don you think of me, think Chris Well, I mean it was just interesting as we're looking for a deer. I mean it's just you think you were going down the trail that was a good trail, and you could already see you know, Tom had walked down the trail. I mean I think, yeah, I think part of it. He's been here, you know, so long. But also too, he's

just very efficient at what he does. He doesn't mess around. It's just let's get it done. But at the same time very accommodating. So yeah, yeah, it's like you said, I mean, you show up at your bunkhouse and you know your your fridge has stuff in it, and you know your place is warm and the lights on. We got in at what four am? Four am? What did I tell you. I told you there'll be a pound of bacon, dozen eggs, loaf of bread, orange juice, half

gallon milk cream coffee. It's exactly there. Dam probably does that give a lot of we gotta give credit. I just you just work. The light was on and and it was hot, wave was warm and yeah, yeah, and it was Is that building over there with the little banches is that at another bunkhouse? Yeah, I'll have to shot you. It's really nice inside. Oh, it's nice. I've never seen that. We have people that come up here and they request to stay there. Oh, really out in

a little the little one out there. I hadn't seen that one. We wait, maybe we'll have to stay there next year. Yeah, it's just I'll show it to you tomorrow morning or something. I'll slip over or something and if you know, we'll have a look at Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Tom And uh yeah, we'll we'll give some details later about how people can contact you and stuff. We appreciate. What are your closing closing comments? Just about the week or about about hunting up here,

or we had a good week here. I think it was. This is a great week to hunt, guys. Um it's just pre rut h. I think it goes right through to November nineteenth. I liked hunting as latest November nineteenth when all the girls are bred, and uh, you got these bucks just running all over looking for them last one. So it's really good hunting. You're hunting muzzloader season up here and into rifle season, and you know, we've done archery season two and we've shot very good bucks in

archery season. You know, you're just in an area where there's some good quality stuff and I think you have a real honest opportunity to get something, you know, I think, yeah, And it's just you know, that's about it. I can't say much. I'm trating. I'm tratt Yeah. Well, all right, keep the wild places wild because that's where the big Canadian bucks live. All thank you to