Dummies Guide to Squirrel Dogs

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If you haven't downloaded it to your phone yet, you need to and you can do that at any app store that is currently available. Go Wild It's an awesome app. Check them out. My name is Clay Nukeleman. I'm the host of the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. I'll also be your host into the world of hunting the icon of the North American wilderness, the bear. We'll talk about tactics, gear conservation, but will also bring you into some of

the wildest country on the planet chasing bears. If you've grown up around squirrel dogs your whole life, you're probably gonna learn a few things on this podcast. But really what we're trying to do is open up the squirrel dog world two people who have not had an entry point into squirrel hunting. Sometimes sometimes the first step into getting into something is the hardest one and so and

you need just somebody to break it down. So that's what we tried to do inside of this to talk about the different breeds of squirrel dogs, how they hunt, and then the different registries of squirrel dogs. And that's important because the registry has given indication of where you would get these and you need to understand a little bit about if you go to a breeder and he says these dogs are registered with such and such registry, you have a kind of a framework for what that means.

My buddy Michael and there summed it up pretty well. At the end of this podcast and he said this. He said, basically, there are fists and there are curves, and inside of the fist and the curves, there are multiple types of fice and multiple types of curves. But square rol hunting is a very fun and engaging way to acquire wild protein into hunt our public lands or private lands. And it's an opportunity event in most most states, like in Arkansas, we have almost a nine month season.

So this is gonna take you from zero to informed when it comes to squirrel hunting. And the other thing that's awesome about squirrel hunting is you get to have a dog. And I think a lot of families, a lot of people people love dogs, and so why not have a utilitarian dog that a dog that serves as a companion as a pet, but also is doing something useful for you. I think that's just smart. Okay Um. We also talk about some mules and just have a

fun conversation. You're gonna enjoy this podcast with Michael Lanier, Trade Autry and Jason Lyles h. Well, you know what a big a good size Ozark Mountain, Northwest Arkansas coon weighs. Jason will know, so you guess last because Okay, I've hunted for pretty hard for the last five years. And the biggest coon that I have ever killed, by far, I weighed what do you think it weighed thirty five pounds. Okay,

it weighed eighteen and a half pounds. And I'm telling you it's the biggest coon we've killed in five years. And we've killed a lot of coons. They're they're not as big as you think. Now. The coon's in in probably the Midwest. But and I would have swore that this one would have weighed twenty pounds when we killed. I mean, it was just it was huge, eighteen and a half pounds on a certified scale. I went to my neighbor's. He's got a certified scale over here anyway.

So I'm saying that to say, if if Susie weighs seventeen pounds, she may have got ahold of a something that's bigger than her. Well, she'll jump on the cone. I've seen her do it before. Yeah, we were squirrel hunting one day. Look up and uh as a fir ball rolling down the hill and she had a comb by the throat, and uh, anyway, should kill that one. Nasty little guys. Oh, she ain't got good chance. She thinks, well, hey,

I've got uh. So we're at the Global Headquarters, and I've got to my right Trey Autry originally from Mississippi, but now it's transplanted in northwest Arkansas. And I got Michael Lanier sitting here. Michael's a native ur kans And and Jason Lyles. Jason, your family has been here for forever. Yeah, sin seek, that's forever long enough, long enough, Um, but we're gonna talk about squirrel hunting. And you three guys are you guys? Are all of you in different ways

of helped me big time getting into the squirrel dog world. Um, Jason is the one that hooked me up with Tests and Timber. So the two dogs I've got right now come from some of Jason's lines. And then Michael and Trey are my squirrel dog mentors. Treys actually like my He's like if I were Luke Skywalker, he would be like Yoda. Okay, we need to start calling him to

squirrel hunting Yoda. But then Michael and here is like obi wan Kenobi Okay, I don't I didn't watch Star Wars and stuff as a kid, so don't get me wrong to think that I'm like a star Wars nerd, because I'm not. But I think that the metaphors flow strong enough. So were, well, Hey, this is what we're gonna do on this podcast is uh, I need to get a mule update from Trey and Michael. Uh, we'll do that first, but we're gonna talk about squirrel the

world of squirrel dogs, which is a complicated world. And there's a lot of different squirrel dog registries, a lot of different types of squirrel dogs, and so what we want to do. What I want to do is take people from zero two informed about the squirrel dog world because I get people that asked me pretty often about these dogs that I've got, what kind of dogs they are? Um, even how do you train them? We might get into that just a little bit, but um so that's where

we're going. So I want somebody to be able to listen to this and have a really good feel for for for for the squirrel dog world. Um, but trade mule world. What tell me you're so you guys we squirrel hunt off mules. Uh. Michael and Trey were the stars of hundred Dollars Squirrel, the YouTube viral sensation coming out of Bear Honey magazine. Trey was the one who wore pink glasses, um his wife's pink glasses. He's world famous for that. Now, Tred, what what meals have you got?

You told me something happened. You've got a mule for sale now, yeah, Well, I'm not quite sure if it's us for sale or not, but it could be. It depends on what happened for sale for sale. I've got two really good ones I got from a fellow down the road named Danny Mind. He's like the mule guru kind of guy, see like Yoda or Obi Wan Kenobi Man. He may be top five, He's he's really good though. Uh, but I had a seven year oal at the house two weeks ago and put him on smoking. He hadn't

never been on anything before and was just fine. And you know, smoky, he's been on a hunt with you before. But but I did something kind of crazy though to day this whole boy alfair at the store at the

Frederick's one stop over in Prague Grove. He had been trying to get me to buy this mule for about all six eight months and I had told him all back around Christmas I said, Don, if you arrived that mw from your house to the one stop I'll give you five hundred dollars far he wanted like eight hundred. He wouldn't do it. Well, the other day I went in there and he hit me up about that mule again and why it was is the mule broke, That's what he said. Yeah, so you were how far as

lived from one stop? All a mile or so, it wouldn't have been too bad. You were like, it was this like a test. You were like, if that because I didn't trust Don with uh with with the deal. So I was gonna help Don, but I didn't want to hurt me help and done by getting killed on that view. So yeah, long story short, hold on. Uh turns around and says, all you want that new I said, yeah, but I ain't gonna give you that fart, you know, unless you write it up here. And uh he said, well,

I don't know if I'm gonna do that. And I said, all right, I'll give you three hundred dollars and I ain't seen it mm hmm, And uh he said, okay, so you didn't even see a picture of it. No, I mean you're gonna get hurt for three hundred dollars. Somebody about it back? Okay, okay, maybe so me and Lania go over and catch at new and had our reservations about you know, who was gonna ride it. Bubba didn't want to get on it. Lanier didn't want to get on it. Here's a cowboy, he's cowboy now, he's

a real guy. Yeah, so I didn't. I wasn't so sure I wanted to get on it. So Lineary went on home and I tied him up over there, and uh, I got the clippers out, and I said, let's see what he does when I tried to clip his old hair. Here, old joke. I just stood there. Okay, what what color is this mual? It's a red mual, very big. No, it's back about the size of Willie. Okay, you know how tall is that mule in there? Hands mane. He's not quite fourteen. He's thinner and Willie too, so perfect

size to hunt off of. Uh, you ain't got a too many limbs. So anyway, that joker, UH stood there, said I think I'm ALRIGHTY put a saddle on him. He stood there, wrote him off perfect and I'm thinking, boy didn't you do good three dollars. I wrote it off.

You know, I'm a cowboy now, all right. So the next day I sadly him up and we go up the hill and we got in some woods, and I had changed bits on him because you know, I was trying to figure it out, and that joker readed up twice bunny hot, and he is trying to he is trying to hurt me. And Uh, I hung with him, got him all back down to the house, and uh gonna take him over to Devil's Den this afternoon, get him on a hill that's pretty much ninety degrees and

see if he's gonna make the travel squad. And we're gonna have to sell him one of the two. Yeah. Hey, if there's one thing about Trey archery, he's not afraid of a mule. Now, He's really not. I probably ought to be. You probably shouldn't, right, but I mean, heck, the ground ain't that fall didn't dn't one of the

ones you've got right now? Throw you off one time and you just yeah, I got I rode Willie home one Sunday afternoon from Danny's and the next day I got on him and he threw me off and I went head overhead, you know, head over heels, right down on that old, that old white gravel man. That hurt, Yeah, did uh? But I got right back on him. And man, I wouldn't give a skin monkey for that meal right now? Could you can shoot a shot going off of him? Good?

It's a good pair of white mules, matching mules. And you know what I always say to your street cred goes way up when you got a pair of matching mules. Oh they look good coming down the road. Yeah, you know they do. Yeah, Well that's exciting. Man, I didn't know he had to new it. Man, that meal will be fine. It just you just gotta you just gotta just ride it. Man, it'll be fine. Hey, what you doing after walk? Well? You know, I don't know. I think maybe you should. You should ride it, But man,

you a whole lot younger it. Oh, I ain't no question anybody bet to catch a snake like you do. We'll do anything. Well, do you think these folks know about your snake catching abilities? Probably not? Probably not really? No, No, I don't talk about that much. I wouldn't tell nobody either. I don't think you're crazy. I like you know, I used to catch a lot of snakes. I don't anymore though, I don't anymore about last year. Doll. Oh you caught one.

Yeah that's right. Yeah, well we were cooing nothing. We was right down you had you had River and Barry with us, and both them kids about the same time time saw the snake in the middle of the road, and both of them holler and get it? Did he get it? Clay stops at news, he jumps off of there. He grabbed that snake, just like something off Wild Kingdom. Uh. If any of you guys remember that show, Uh, what's old Marty Stafford? Matt is that? Who was Marty Stafford?

That's good? That was a good all Merlin Perkins. Now, this just goes back to right before this is this is right before Disney would come on at six o'clock. Okay, okay, yeah, this was mutual of omahas Wild king Okay, okay, this is really a compliment. Yeah, so because yeah, anyway, so Clay stops in the middle of the road, reaches down there and grabbed that snake and he's milking it, just like on Wild Kingdom or some show. You're saying, and there's this old boy from New York kneeling down with

the camera taking pictures. And I'm I don't know which one's crazier, Clay for holding a snake or that old boy for getting so close. But I certainly kept my distance. But he ain't scared en nothing. So a mule versus a a poison of snake. Uh No, my money's gonna Clay every time. Well, I tell you, the one thing I don't like is a possum. I wouldn't touch a possum if you paid me. Moving on, moving on, Uh, Michael, will tell me about your mule mule world. I sold

r D that I was riding last week. You sold him. I was kind of want a project. Why did you sell him? Because I was doing he was doing good. Yeah, he's doing good. I couldn't ever break him from being buddy sour. Yeah, that's one thing. I just didn't have much luck at Uh. So that means when you if you've got two animals in a in a field together and you take him or take one, he would flip out. Yeah. He did not ride off on very well. He wouldn't even ride off he would It was just it was

a fight. Yeah, Okay, So I bought a couple of mules, took one to a guy over north central Arkansas to ride, and then brought one here for me to ride, and got on her first time yesterday. Okay, you got that Appalusa mule. Yeah, that's the one I've got up here in at mule and then the other one you got back from a guy who's been riding it. No, she's still over there, and I'm actually gonna sell her. Okay, so you'll have something ready to ride though pretty soon. Right,

we'll see man you better. Yeah, she's pretty nervous. She ain't been rode much. She has rode sun last fall and set up till now. Yeah, she's eight eight. App Mule means Appalusa, so her mama was an Appealusa horse most likely. Yeah, she's pretty. She's pretty. I like her about thirteen and a half fourteen. Yeah, yeah, n she's pretty thin. Well cool, Jason, you don't have any muals. No, but I've got a mule story. Yeah. Yeah, I bought a mule one time for two hundred dollars. You just

wait your story. So I decided to want a mule. This is ten years ago. I go and buy this mule two hundred dollars at winslow. I get there, it's year old mule sway back is all get out by this mule. Jun her bucks get home, saddled up, rides fine, little spooky anything hits his belly spooks pretty easy. So I didn't like the mule. My friend Grant Williams from Forest City, Arkansas, decides he wants to buy my mule back for two So he drives all the way from

East Arkansas to buy his mule for squirrel hunting. Well, he had never been up here in the os arcs, and uh he tells me this story about how he went up the pig trail and he could read the license plate on his trailer because the turns are so sharp. And so he gets up here, he gets the mule, heads back home. But then the first week the mule had bucked him off in the round brin pen and broke his collar bone and left him there and knocked

out for like two hours. Oh my gosh. Yes, So so later this was ongoing deal on the There used to be this forum called squirrel Haters and he was on there, and uh so this story about the mule just kept it you know transpiring over the next few months. Well, they were in Missouri squirrel hunting one day and his wife calls and she is freaking out. This mule has gotten out and has lost its mind and his attacking

people in the park in town. They haltail home from Missouri, get there two hours later and have to chase this mule down in the park in town in Forest City, Arkansas, and it is attacking everybody. It's attacking them, it's rushing them, and they end up having to hunt it down in the woods in the in the state park there, and people know the mule did not leave the state park, couldn't. It was just that is a good mule story. Yeah it is, oh man, that's something you are laughing at

each other there. This happened to y'all too recently. Recently, something like this almost happened Monday. Yeah, this week gone mommule was tied up in the backyard for oh Ton, maybe it was Tuesday. Got her on Sunday. Tuesday tied her up and she got her leg up over a lead rope broker Halter Howes at work. Kids called me, said, the mules running loose in the neighborhood you know, in the backyard. So I called Trey, get him to meet me. Another feller, come help me, an't we Yeah, we finally

called her. You got her. Yeah. We cornered her an alley on the side of my shop and we're out there running around in the field right next to the cemetery. They're having a funeral. Oh no, yeah, oh no. Good news is the mule didn't go over yah. Wow. Man. They don't like to be caught when they know they're free to That is for danger. Wow. Okay, this is good.

I'm trying to think if I've had anything crazy happened. Uh. I mean I took Izzie Montana a few well months ago, and uh we had a little bit of a rodeo getting a bear on her back. But she took it and hauled it out. But it wouldn't it wasn't easy. Um, that's for another podcast. Good Okay, Now I feel like I'm squared away. Uh and now we can talk about what we were going to talk about, which is uh squirrel dogs. Um. What I've learned is that not every

state has a spring squirrel season. And part of the reason squirrel hunting is on my mind is because We've been doing some spring squirrel hunting here in Arkansas. Our season opens up May and runs all the way through the next year to February, so it's only closed for like three months, which a lot of a lot of states don't have spring squirrel seasons, which from a management perspective, you know, I mean, human hunters aren't putting a lot

of hurt on squirrel numbers. I mean for the most part, Uh, if you look at a macro scale. So anyway, it's spring squirrel seasons are a good a good thing. But I want to talk about squirrel dogs. So the question that I get a lot is, uh, you know, what kind of dogs do you use for for squirrel hunting. If you're gonna be getting a squirrel dog, you are gonna need some tracking devices and some training devices for that dog. It's just it's just part of the startup costs.

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t shirts. Check out Bear Hunting Magazine. And please do us a favor by leaving a review on iTunes of this podcast. It helps us if we get a five star rating. But you gotta be honest tell us what you think. But that does help us appreciate it, guys, So let's just start. Let's just start right there. What kind of dogs? What breeds of dogs? Jason, If you want to start off, like, what what breeds of dogs? Two people used for squalling? There are several different kinds

of dogs. Um, A lot of people hunt all mixed up mutt type dogs. But if you're looking for dogs that are bread for squirrel hunting, you're always gonna be looking at like mountain five stream fives, original mountain curves. Um. Some people like, uh, we're gonna break all these down, so soa say it slower. We got mountain fists, mountain I guess you'd call them treeing fists as well. A lot of people think they're they're different. A lot of

that blood is pretty similar. Um, original mountain curves, original mountain cur You've got like us, which are a long hair type treating dog common though no not as common, no, no, not as common. Uh, treeing curs treats a mixture like hound curve crosses, hound fist crosses, you know, hound bird dog crosses, those type of dogs. Um. You know there's there's several varieties of curves, and a lot of it's distinguished bloodline. Blackmouth cur yeah, black mouth mouth curve, yeah,

Stephen's curves. You know, I got a hellus cur You ever heard of that? Fellow? What is it? Hills? No, buddy of mine town put me onto him and I drove further than I should have to go get it, but I think it's gonna make it. But it's a blackmouth curve. It's it's a lie Less bloodline. Then hell Heller's bloodline. It's a tree, a tree type mount. Let's okaya, Michael,

are there others? I mean, because all we've said so far is fist curves, and now like a is a long hair type yeah, like it's just like a trade shepherd type dog. Yeah, slid dog, Yeah, I agree. I mean, is that it curR and fist? Is that all we're hunting with some folks with towns? Yeah? More common now then huh. And then there's uh, there's a feller that hunts bird dogs, straight bird dogs, bird dogs that'll tree

mm hm. So so the common denominator with all these dogs because they've got to be tree dogs and and so a tree dog is a dog that when it smells game, that runs up a tree, that's going to stay at that tree and bark. And there's a difference there. There are hounds that are running hounds. Some of these curves are probably not dogs like they use a lot of these cur dogs black mouth curves, especially hog dogs. So like the tree and instinct that dog is not

that important. And so sometimes it could be I'm not gonna say it's gonna get bread out, but it could be a are are are they're baying an animal on the ground, So they smell scent up a tree, it doesn't mean anything to them. Um, So I want to establish that that a squirrel dog has to be a tree dog. They are not always gonna see the squirrel run up a tree, So they're a scent dog. They're smelling the scent of a squirrel. Now they might see it run up a tree, but most time they don't.

They're smelling the scent of a squirrel. They're finding the tree that that squirrel went up, and they're standing there and barking until you get there and give the dog a command to leave or shoot the squirrel out or whatever. Now okay, so what registries though, So there's all these different curves. Now, okay, let me So these are kind of even questions I think I haven't understood. But this is the way I worked through it is that like the u k C, the United Kennel Club, Like if

you're talking about coon hounds, it's all real easy. There are only like six breeds of u k C registered coonhounds, you know, black and tan, English blue, tick, plothhound walker. Uh, leopard, there's a leopard cur. I think. Um, but squirrel dogs not so right, Michael, Well, I mean you got the what the original mountain cur registrate. Now is that a u k C registered dog, original mountain cur? I think with u k C and p k C that curs

are just registered as tree and curs. I believe the u k C has a tree and cur Yeah, yeah, you can. You can register a mountain cur with u k C. Okay, but it will be registered as a tree and curve as we understand it. Okay, okay, is that right? I believe. So I'm kind of out of the cur world. Well described Michael described the the well, the feist and cur registrate as you know it, because there's different organisms and what I was getting at, it's like u k C. It's just like clear cut. There's

registered dogs and then there's not registered dogs. Um the but the but the squirrel dog world it's different because there's these little dependent breed registries, independent breed registries. So just talk about that a little bit. Well, I think you've got the original mountain curve. Then you've got in f T A what does that stand for? Or in in t F A it's a National Fire Tree and cur Association. I think, yeah, okay, it's in f T

a National fist something association. I forget what the acronym is. And then uh, there's Mulin's fast. Now is that a breed in its own is a breed of feist? And then uh, what else have you got? F A T F A N S D YEP, which is dog or I think a sport dog? No, I think it's the National Squirrel Dog Registry. Okay, yeah, I think you're right. Okay, And now what the National Squirrel Dog Registry. They're just a they're kind of like u k C and p

k C. They are basically a competition hunt registry. Um and they will register a lot of tree and curve crosses like hounds and vice and mountain curve crosses or pure mountain curves. It's it's just a an all squirrel dog registry. So what qualifies? Can you put a dog in that registry that's never been registered before? Yeah, you could hunt. You could have a grade walker dog cross it to a grade cur dog and register if if

it's a nice world dog. Is it just so you can have an organizations that's keeping records of your breeding, yes, or and I believe in National Squirrel Dog Registry it's more of a you know, it's a competition hunt registry mostly,

tell me what do you mean by that? They have those They have competition squirrel hunts where it's almost like money earnings, like okay, so they're keeping track of the point earnings every Yes, So someone would register a dog in that because they wanted to competition and be able to enter it into those contests, would have to be registered with that because see the background that I would have with dog registries would be u k C and coonhounds,

which now this is gonna get complicated now they have ex bread Um Cross Bread Hunt Registry. Yeah, so you can put dogs in u k C resterdments. But basically, I mean you gotta have a registered plot bread to a registered uk C plot in order to have dogs are registered. I mean there's no there's no way to get into the registry with a great dog means a dog that has no papers and and essentially by papers, what we're talking about is uh, you know, you can

get the the genealogy of these dogs back. You you can pay U k C A certain you know, you can get that when you register a pup if it has registered parents, you can get a seven generation pedigree or a forty generation pedigree I think. And you can go back and you track these dogs. I mean, it's a breeding registry. But so the squirrel Okay, so now I understand the competition squirrel hunt. The only the reason you'd register it is so that you could competition hunt it.

But it's not necessarily keeping not so much on the n s D. I don't believe. And I don't know for sure if n s D has to have um their dogs hunt tested maybe, I think, because I think it's just basically I don't think they're ready. I don't know. I have to ask my buddy. But I don't think they're registering litters of pubs. I think it's it's just

it's just a competition dogs. Yeah, like yes, and then it's got braid standards, so doesn't it It might be inches and under right and yeah right, okay, So in n s D as National Sporting Dog, Squirrel Dog squorl Dog Registry, National Squirrel Dog Registry. Okay, n s R. Is that what it's called? Just n s D. What's the descent? National squirrel dog? Squirrel dog? Got it? Are you following this? Because we're gonna once we get done with all this, we're coming back to trades philosophy for

paper dogs. Okay, you can, you'll be working that up. Okay, um no, no, I'm really trying to understand this. This is good. We just gotta work through it because it's not clear cut. So n s D has breed breeds standards for different dogs. So I could take my little dog out here and register it as a feist within s D. Because why Michael, Because it's meant the breed standards. You think it's under thirty pounds, under thirty pounds and

under eighteen inches or eighteen inches and unders typical max fiss. Okay, you know that's a feist. Is a is a descriptor of a dog that meets a certain physical characteristic standard that a tree and dog that's under thirty inches, I mean, under under eighteen inches his shoulder and under thirty pounds. Is that right? Well, I mean it is. There's more to it than that. With Okay, yeah, you know, mom and Daddy had to. You couldn't take a wiener dog out here that would tree a squirrel and say, I'm

gonna register this as a feist. No no, see, okay, okay, with those registries like that, typically that's what they're wanting. Is a feist is a tree fight, is gonna be thirty pounds eighteen in inches and under. But it's more than that. Two guys that actually keep and hunt feist. There's bloodlines that are involved with that. If you if you have a a half hound half German shorthaired pointer and that dog ends up being small, you typically you could register it is that a fast But it's not.

It's not no, not to a real squirrel dog guy. It's it's about blood sense. I've just been trying to nail down, like the hardcore definition what a fist is, because there's so many different and all these fights don't look the same. I mean, like you get a walker hound, and I mean a tree and walker looks like a tree and walker, But a feist maybe he may be lemon colored. He maybe brindle and white like my black dogs.

Maybe black, Like there's just so much variation, So I mean you could also you could have a cur that's under that size as well. I wouldn't call it a fast. My dogs is testifict. I would say, yes, yeah, yeah, she's mostly fast blood. She will carry mountain curve and a little bit of tree walker bloo ud, but she's she is different the coon dog bloodlines, because I mean, I've got a dog out here that's a fist, but she's got original mountain curR in her and she can

also be registers a tree and curve. Yeah right, yeah, I've got two dogs that are quarter walker, quarterbird dog, half fast, and I would call them both the fast. So if it's got any fist in it, it could be a fast depending on the size. It's like, Okay, say those dogs were thirty five forty pounds, some might say they're more of a tree and curve even though they're half fives blood. You get what you get where we're going with this. Yeah yeah, no, it makes it

makes sense. It's just not intuitive trades. This makes sense to you. But by blood, those dogs are mostly fast. So yeah, yeah, okay, okay, and that's what I understood. But it's just I think we got to say that this is definitely different than coonhound registry. Oh yeah, way different. Why is it different? Oh, the because coonhounds registries, you know, they're very strict on the bloodlines those dogs go back to. They're most feast dogs and even cur dogs. They could

possibly even have some unknown lineage. There's guys that have good dogs, they're good proven squirrel dogs, and they want to be able to have some sort of registry to register these dogs with that they can go and enjoy competition hunting, or start keeping track of the lineage if they start breeding pups out of that dog to set up families, because it doesn't have as long a history.

Because see, like these different lines of coonhounds, a lot of them came over from Europe, you know, and so they came here for all these years, and so people had already in their mind these different breeds of hounds, and they like to keep them separate rated. They like to keep you know, the blue ticks and the English and the walker in the black and tan pot. And then maybe the squirrel dogs were just like they didn't come from Europe. I mean maybe at some point way

back they did. But I mean these are kind of like American bread over there. They do. But I don't know that they messed with him much. We were pretty hungry people when we first got here, so we'd eat them. We still eat them. Um no, no, you'll see where I'm I'm trying to understand why it's like that, and and uh, because it seems it seems like it would be easy enough to be like, Okay, there's fice and these are the only ones that are fights. They're curs.

They're only ones that are curs. But it just seems like it's a little bit more flexibility in the squirrel world. It's a little bit squirrelly. Do you like that? Trade? Trade like that? Oh, he's showing me something here. Okay. Treys looked up the Wikipedia definition of a fast fast is a small hunting dog descended from the terriers brought

over the United States by English miners. Okay, okay, so they did come from over there or according to Wikipedia, which we'll see true fact, English miners and working class immigrants. These terriers probably included crosses between the smooth fox terrier, Manchester terror and now extinct English white terrier. These dogs were used as ratters, gambling their prows and killing rats his favorite Happily, their owners okay, yeah, you know, all

these dogs probably came from pretty similar bloodlines. But a feist okay, so good if you take a car, I don't think it's gonna be as tough on them rats. Uh, it's like a face would be. Because Susie's favorite thing to do. If the squirrels aren't moving, she'll find something under a log or chipmunks, yeah, chipmunks, rats, whatever he wants to get tunnel and get. It's kind of has a similar smell to it. Yeah. Oh, she's a great rat dog. I bet she is. Oh yeah, or moles

in the yard, She'll dig them up. All them little dogs will do that kind of stuff. Yeah, well, I think I think, uh, I think it's starting to make sense to me. The registry is that these dogs, a lot of them were just mixed up dogs. There were probably a lot of different regionally specific kind of dogs that kind of people of a certain area started breeding. Is that right? Like the Mullins fights, Like, where did that come from? I mean there's a guy named Mullins, right, Yes, sir,

tell me about that. I don't know much about him. I mean I know he he buried some good dogs and Jody Mullins started it. So that's something that's new, that's not that didn't happen in the eighteen hundreds. That happened. I mean, he's still lies. Yeah, he he's got the whole breed of dogs named after him. So you you mean to tell me if me and Trey really start breeding our dogs, good, we could have the autry nukem feist. Sure,

all right? All right, well no, no, okay, see that makes sense too, because they're not making any new coonhound breeds, you know what I mean. I mean, it's not like but I like that about the squirrel world. It's kind of kind of flexible. I want to stop this right here and make a correction. And jokingly I said, hey, me and Trey could start our own breed of dogs. Really, what we should have said was that if Trey and I started breeding dogs, potentially we could start our own

line of dogs or strain of dogs. So we would have fights. We wouldn't be creating a new breed. But you know, an individual could over time, over generations, if he had some and really unique that he was breeding in, he could create his own strain of dogs. I just wanted to clarify that, so we weren't trying to say that a new breed of squirrel dog could be developed, thank you. Yeah, there, it's based off bloodlines basically. You know you've got with mountain curves are the same as fists.

As far as the way they started out, they were used to curve. The definition of cur was mixed up. But you know, like homestead type dog, Well, they're actually bred into a breed registry now a lot of mark now they have their own breed O m c b A. Yeah, started in nineteen fifty seven when it actually started coming around. So they just have their whole own and all the dogs within that registry are supposed to lineagely go back to the first However, many dogs that were originally registered

in that registry. But there's other you know, there's other bloodlines of reginal mountain curves that aren't in that registry,

more like Camera Stock mountain curves. Those dogs were O m c b A registered dogs at one time, but Robert Camera, developer that particular strain of dogs, branched away from the O m c b A and bred his dogs specifically to his standards, and so now they're separate, and there's some some of those dogs are still they're not as common or dual registered camera stock and O M C B A so which those are not as common anymore. But it's it's you know with mostly with

the face dogs you get. Most of those dogs are going to be in k C registered, which are National Kennel Club Registry. And there's also a t f A. A t f A does not registered letters of pups. They're more of a competition hunt organization and they are hunt test organization where you have to your dog has a member has to come sign off that your dog will and tree game and game be seen. Okay, okay um. There's also a Steven's Cur Steven's Cur as well, and

they're mostly a black and white hunt. Some Steven's Curse. No. I had to I try it out and uh, the guy got them from told me that one of them was registered, one was not because it wasn't old enough to be registered. I think they have to hit a year old before you can registrate and it's got to meet their breed standards. Ye, and they branched away from you if okay, let's bring it back down to like

a functional level. I want to talk about the what the different dogs do because they're like the only reason you'd have a different kind of dog is because that dog had some characteristic that you like. So every every dog, every all these are gonna be a little bit different. Um So, like, uh, let's start off with the original mountain curves. What are they known? You don't have to go into great detail, but like what how do they hunt and what are they known for? You know there there,

they got a lot of work ethic there. They're a running type dog, head in the air mostly, a little bit bigger dog, a little bit bigger dog. You know. Some mountain curves are gonna be small, like Michael was saying earlier, though especially like real heavy streak bread dogs. They're gonna they may be twenty five pounds, but some of them might be sixty pounds. You know, mountain curves very inside. You could mistake a mountain curve for a hound.

You except for a lot of times they'll bob their tail, yes, or they come natural bobtail as well? Do they really? Hell? Yeah, yeah do they? Yeah? Absolutely both five sand curves will come naturally naturally A lot of the different depending on the black mountain cur is usually gonna be usually a brindle dog. No, there's lots of yellow, lots of yellow colored dogs. Yeah, bred brindle, black and white, but never you know, some of them to in on the bloodline.

You'll get some open spot dogs once in a while, depending on the bloodline. But those dogs can't be registered like white with colored like almost like a pointer or a hound, you know, like a walker hound. We don't like that. They can't be registered, not with omcb A. They have to meet the breed standard. No open white spots pass the shoulder back if they have too much white up on their flanks, can't register them. Um. Certain bloodlines throw that more than others. You know, that white's

a recessive so original mountain curve. Somebody would look at it and almost think it was a hound a little bit shorter, ears a lot of variation in color, usually a bobtail, either cut or natural. And they're they're going to usually not bark on the track at all, mostly silent.

Some dogs are open. My dogs open on coon, and that means when he smells sent on the ground of the animal he's trailing, he'll he will bark, yes on that those to a silent A dog that's silent on track would trail, a trail game without barking, and then when that game is treated, he would fall. And that's a lot of people like that. A lot of the squirrel dogs are like that, majority or bread for silent trailing usually, yeah, and so original mountain curs are used

for coon hunting. Squirrel hunting primarily ply is would you say, more squirrel than coon? Yes, yea more squirrel and coon, but quite a few guys cood. There's a lot of combo good combo dogs out there nowadays, but they're they're kind of an all purpose dog. But yes, as far as most original mountain curs will make better squirrel dogs than a coon dog versus a hound. You know. Yeah,

do they hog hunting much rigon mountain curs? Yeah, they will as well, Um, most of the guy most of the dogs that are getting hog hunted, I would say, are probably the dogs that didn't pan out as well as as a squirrel dog so much treeing instinct or something. But yeah, yeah, very great dogs. Michael, what what what breed would you like to describe? Oh? Fast, tell me, just tell me everything I need to know about the

way of fast hunts and why I would want one. Well, I mean, I tried curves for a while and just didn't click for me for whatever reason. Then I started trying some fist and one thing I noticed different. There a little hotter nose my hunt a little closer, uh, a little bit easier to or a little bit uh more apt to want to please be your buddy the ones I've had. But I also kind of changed up how I raised them when I started getting the fist, started bringing them in the house more, let him right

in the front of the truck. You know. Uh, some of them, they won't have a very good bark. Some of them will kind of have a yippie bart, you know, high pitched, versus the most of the curves have a real real good bark, good mouth on him, And you want that just so you can hear him, right, And I just I like the sound of it too. Yeah, yeah, and they uh And what you mean by hotter nose is that like like they're gonna pretty much only show

and bark on game that was there pretty quickly. I mean that the they're not gonna bark on a two hour old squirrel. I mean they might, but that just as an example versus a squirrel that was standing there two minutes ago. Correct, Yeah, and most of most of the ones I've had here lately. Uh, they're not a belly up on the tree, you know, they're not right up against the tree tree and they're kind of back off. They're really looking for the squirrel. They're wanting to timber it.

You know, if it fit timbers out lays the tree, they're gonna like that. Oh absolutely. Um. So a feist is he's using his nose, but he's also using his eyes and ears. Absolutely, yes, I mean that's what they're known for, right, Yeah, that would uh original Mountain Kirby like that. Less a little less um there are there are bloodlines of dogs that are more of a hard

tree dog and some that aren't. Um, they will timber and watch first squirrel as well too, but a lot of there's a lot of those bloodlines that are just real hard on feet on the wood type tree dog, you know. But yeah, both breeds there, they know what they're doing. Then they're bred to hunt and find a squirrel, see it, timber out, timber and if it goes. But fists are very sight oriented, and I mean they're hot

nose dogs. Like Michael saying, Um, you know. That's the unique thing about tree and a squirrel is that he's probably not gonna stay in that tree. Everywhere. Yeah, they they they've been all over the woods and they're gonna go up a tree and they may be two trees over. And that's where you know, coon hunting's just so pole and you know the striker track tree. That coon's not gonna jump from tree to tree. That's just gonna be sitting there and maybe in a hole. We may know

it will see him. But but a squirrel, man, you go up and anything could happen. But especially late season, they get real flighty. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Um what other? What other? Like a tree incurred like these dogs I've got could be Richter's tree and cursed? Would a tree incur be known as anything different? A little bit wider hunting, A little bit louder, you said than a feist, Michael, because I mean usually because they're just a little bit

bigger dog. I don't know if it's because they're bigger, I mean, trace dog. He's susy. She'll go for a mile if you let her. You know, she doesn't. But I'd say he's just what's been bred into him. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, she's a fast though she's as a fast. Try what's your favorite kind of dog to hunts? Is that what you've hunted most of the scuore dogs you've had. Yeah, And it's as much about either you get a good

one or you don't. You know pretty quick, you know, I like one that just hunts hard, has a big old heart, and just gets after. Yeah, you know, kind of like that guy that you're stuck in the batter's box. When he was six, he could hit. You know, you didn't do nothing. He was able to hit because mom and daddy were probably pretty good athletes. Yeah, the same thing with a doll. Either you can hit a little bit of you can't. Yeah. So yeah, that's that's what

philosophy and all this paper mumbo jumbo. Man, if I lose one of them papers, it ain't no big deal. I mean, I I got papers on all my dogs. But if you had to give me them paper present five minutes or I want you to kill you. You don't have to kill me, because I ain't sure if we're all love mar But you know, it's just like anything else you do. You want to buy something that's pretty good, you don't want to buy, you know, a

beater so to speak. If you're gonna buy a car, you want to buy one do you think will be pretty dependable? So you know, you can drive a Boatswagon or Cadillac. Both of them are gonna get you there. But how much more fun you're gonna have driving that Cadillac? So yeah, So the biggest thing I look for is just driving hard? Yeah, driving hard? Um. Why do you like squirrel hunting so much? Traight? What's what is fun of it? Because most people haven't squirrel hunt with dogs.

I mean it's it's kind of a it's almost like it's almost like a social event. You ain't gotta be quiet when you through them. With squirrels. You can take you can take kids and take holler and yell, scream, have a good time. You know, the noise ain't gonna mess up what we're doing because we're making noise when we're coming through the wood. Yeah right, yeah, so yeah, that's why I like it. You ain't gotta be quiet.

You know, you can freeze deaf deer hunting. That's the only reason you like s grownds because you don't have to be quiet. Well, that and I like watching that dog. I like. I like watching that dollar. I'm pulling more out of him here. Yeah, but I do like that dog trying to figure it out and do all that, you know, And and it gets pretty exciting when the squirrel takes off through their timber and everybody's shooting at it. Oh you bet, you know, it's chaos. The more time

just hoose, the more fun it is to me. You know, if you just drove up and shot one every time you pull the trigger, that wouldn't be any fun. Yeah, you know, I just like I just like the action. You're always moving, you know, you can sitt in that deer standing frese to death. Man, I didn't said that twice. You've got to have a heater to do that. But if you're walking or ride in the mule, you're getting a little exercise. Yeah. And the only reason to have them,

you was because there's too many heels around here. You know, if it was flat ground, we could probably still walk into it. That'd be like a golfer playing golf without a car, you know. Around here. Well, it's a lot

of fun, you know. Just in the last few years I've I've gotten in the squirrel hunting with dogs, now you know, we grew up still hunting for squirrels, but as a as a mature outdoorsman and woodsman, I was like kind of shocked at how your heart skips a beat when those dogs are treated and you walk up there and that squirrel breaks. I mean, you know, in the outdoor world, you you it's like you gain enough

proficiency that sometimes stuff doesn't. Maybe you don't get as excited as you did when you when you were young, but man, when that's world breaks loose and everybody's shooting, I might as well be eight that it is fun and and and then you're frustrated at the same time because you're missing, and you're you're you're frustrated at your

son because you're like, why aren't you shooting there? You you know, you just you just it just goes into just total chaos for just like thirty forty seconds, and then it comes back to normal and you're like, oh wait wait, I'm I'm a grown man, and uh, you know, I don't need to get this excited about this. It's a lot of fun. Hey, Michael Lanier is a squirrel killer. He doesn't mess around, No, he doesn't, and he's serious about it he is every time. He likes to bring

him home. What do you like about squirrel hunting, Michael, I like missing with the dogs a lot. I like missing with the young dogs. Yeah. Uh. I like to always have an old dog around that old tree, you know that way when you get frustrated with the young ones. Yeah, you can take the old one out. But it's just a lot of fun. I mean we can hunt from May till the end of February. Yeah. Well, you said something about your mule that reinforced what I already knew

about you. You like a project. Oh, I like to have something to do. I mean he had a perfectly good meal that he had basically tuned up and you could shoot off of it, and I mean it was it had become a nice mule, really, and he just got rid of it because he wanted a project. He does the same thing with his dog dogs too. I mean he give me a dog a few months ago, remember Jess. Oh yeah, And and Jess, he's as good a squirrel dog as you go. Ever. Fine, but it

was doing too good for Michael exactly. He had to find him one that well, and he's and tweet and get him doing it. And hey, crap. Once that dog does it and does it good, are you gonna find him another one? Yeah? Every time you're a trainer, hey and Joyce, he he, I think he has more for and training it. And then a few weeks ago we was riding down Cove Creek and he had a mule um tied to the back of that little ot Suzuki

side by side. They ain't got no doors on it, yea, And off we went down the road training that mule. Don't you know. People thought we was crazy. Now what are you trying to do? I teach it to lead, make it across the bridge. Yeah, just kind of desensitize it. Yeah, training training is fun. It is well, watching him training him is fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We gotta get Jason a really good mule for next year. He's been trying to. He's got a great place to keep one. He just yeah,

I don't know what, Jason. What do you like about Scrown Man? I like a little bit of everything about it. I like the dog work, like the history of the bloodlines of those dogs. Um, just the calmaraderie. Going out on a frosty morning leaves her on falling in uh in November and just hear in dog fall Tree. It's I love it when we're walking in the woods just talking and then you hear that dog bark. That's my favorite thing. Yeah, I like to know that man when

you get there, especially if it's a younger dog. You know, it's exciting to get there and see a squirrel there. Shoot that squirrel out. Man. For somebody that doesn't have you know, let me go back the old, the old phrase, he doesn't have a dog in the hunt, or he does have a dog in the hunt. You know, it's a metaphor for someone that's got a vested interest in something. You know, they say, I mean that that That metaphor

goes through all cultures in in North America anyway. I bet people in the city say that and they don't even know what they're talking about. Point being, when you have a dog in the hunt, it transforms the hunt and in and in it. And so someone like like is like considering getting a dog, or someone's considering getting into squirrel hunting. You don't even know how much fun it is until you get it. All you could come squirrel hunting with somebody, you know, Trey took me squirrel

hunting years ago and we had a great time. But at the time, I just I wasn't ready. I wasn't in the position to get a dog. And you know, we had a good time, but it wasn't until I got a dog that that you really understand. And I knew that would happen because I had coon hunted enough, and you know, I knew if I ever got a dog, i'd love this. But you know, I just wasn't ready to make the commitment. But point being, you know, I mean, I hope people listen to this conversation could find an

entry point into the squirrel dog world. And if you did, you would you would enjoy it. And what I think is happening to is that people are looking for entry points into the outdoor world, and sometimes big game hunting intimidates people new people. Big game hunting can be intimidating because of you know, it's a it's a low opportunity game. I mean, you you're gonna hunt for a whole season to hope to get maybe one opportunity at a deer or at a bear. Um Man, squirrel hunting is an

opportunity game. I mean, we're gonna go squirrel hunting. And it's not a question of whether we're gonna kill squirrels. That's how many, you know. I mean most of the time. We get skunked every now and then in a tough part of the year. But but so and you don't have a two hundred pound animal land on the ground that you've got to butcher and take care of the meat. And you know you're you've got a one pound animal.

You know, it's a little bit less commitment. Um. The other thing that's cool out squirrel hunting is, especially with the dog, is these dogs become part of your family, you know. Um, most people have dogs anyway, and I have long been a utilitarian dog man. I mean, like, we don't have pets around here. I mean, if there's gonna be a dog around here, he is going to be contributing to the protein surplus of this family. But they there are pets too, I mean people that have

like just a dog. I don't know, you guys probably have dogs so present company. Except you know what I'm saying, I want a dog. But my point is that these hunting dogs fill the pet slot. Okay, that's what I'm trying to say. So I'm trying to. I'm trying to widen see because there's all these guys that are listening to this podcast right now that are trying to figure out how they're gonna talk their wife into getting up

squirrel dogs. That's exactly right, that's really you. What this podcast needs to be about is how do you build It's all about building the narrative and the family culture in order to make a gateway for a squirrel dog. And when my family five six years ago wanted we decided it was finally time for us to get another dog. We had dogs, We've had a lot of dogs, but there was a period where we didn't the period. The time came when the kids were old enough, we had

the place it was like, we need dogs. Misty was like, let's get a boxer and I was like that, I like the idea of the dog. How about we get a plot? And that's how that started. And anyway, now that we're deep into it, the best decision we ever made. Do you guys have any tips? Tray what is what are your tips for talking your wife and the letting you get a squirrel dog? Don't tell her about it, just show up with it, because good advice. I mean you can't because I'm at the point right now. Good

news is my wife will never listen to this. But I'm getting the dog next week and she has no ideas coming. I'm gonna tell her. So just like that, just like that dog at car I took off and drove four hundred miles to get. Yeah, it just showed up. It just showed up. Well, hey, you're in a little bit different classification because you're you're you've already got dogs. Once you get one dog, then it's much easier to

get multiple dogs. Yeah. Let that. Let that. Let your wife feed that dog one time and pet it, and it, you know dog, you know, licks her in the face a couple of times. It's over. Yeah, then the doors open. Yeah, she's sold on it in Yeah, but it's between the time you got four or five that you're thinking to go get another one. You don't say a word. Okay,

you just bring it home. Hey, in our family, I've taken my family out to East Tennessee to Roy Clark's place, and we've been to a couple of other big bear hunters places, and buddy bear hunters have dogs. Okay, I think Mr Roy Clark told me last time I was there, I think you had twenty seven dogs. And uh so my family, you know, we we think a lot of Roy Clark and uh so, like my family thinks that the number of dogs you have is a status symbol.

See you with me, more dogs you have kind of like the higher up on the totem pole of society you are because Roy Clark's got a lot of dogs. So now I think I've got five dogs. And the kids are like, yeah, you're getting there, daddy. We probably need some more Michael tip tip for how to bring home a squirrel dog us all these dogs and she is an animal hiter. Uh who's telling the truth here? Okay,

so she doesn't like the dogs. She likes me to have squirrel dollars, but she does not like animals in general. My tip would be, do not let your kids tell your wife how much the dog cost. Okay, Okay, yeah, you don't want to lie about it. But we don't even talk about it either. Okay. I like that. I'd never condoned Lyne ever, especially inside of the family. But I like what you said there. We just don't have to talk about it. Good when you slip one time

told Katie what this dog cost Michael. I've told William decide and I said, you like squirrel hing, best keep your mouth shut about it, okay, okay, good? And and your dogs. I mean you're you're taking full responsibility for these dogs. It's not like you know your wife's having Uh they're not like living in your house all the time. I mean, I'll bring them the puppies in some let them round in the truck with us. But no, they're

they're outside for the most part. Okay, yeah, but I like to bring them around the you know, let them loosen the yard, spend a lot of time with them. Now when Katie's gone, they might sleep in the bed with me. That'll that'll get them get him attached to you, Okay, all right, Jason tips, I can't contribute to that much because, uh, my dogs were with me before my significant other one because she was deal regardless, you came with dogs, I came.

I think there's a strategy here though, before you know, you get hitched. Yeah you have dogs, Kime squirrel hunter before you even tie yourself down, Yes on to something because it's like, that's pretty good idea. But my old lady likes to go squirrel hunting with me. That's good, that's good. You know. Yeah, I'm kind of I like to play the long game in this in this wheelhouse. And you know, I married my wife when she was young. We've been married for we'll be married twenty years this November.

And uh so she was young when we first started dating. I've been I've been I've been developing family culture, as we say, for a long time. So hunting dogs is just like valuable to her, which they wouldn't have been in her family. She wouldn't have known much about him, you know, but I think to her, she just thinks like every normal family has like a bunch of hunting dogs. And that's good. So I don't have to talk her into it. Man, you should have been a salesman. Yeah,

who you are? That's pretty good deal there, bo the long game, play the longest play, the long game stuff. Yeah, well that's good. Um, have we missed, you know, the conversation about the squirrel dog breeds and different things. It's kind of kind of complicated. Is there anything that you could say that would um simplify it? I don't know, I mean, like or de have we covered it all? Michael? I mean the thing I would just say is there's fist and there's curves, and then there's a whole bunch

of different fist and different curves. That's a good way to say it. I like that, you know, just hunt what you like. Okay, that's a simple way to say it. There's fists and there's curves, and there's a whole bunch of different fights and curves. That helps me. Okay, you know it's good. If I was gonna say anything that would make sense about this deal would be by dog.

If you're getting into it by a dog that started. Yeah, you know, because it's a lot of foot traffic, a lot of foot time to get one started, to get one to do something, because you lose interest if you're not. If you don't say one do something, you may lose interest before that dog trees. And a definition of a started dog to me would be one that's had twenty five squirrels shout out to it. Okay, that's just that would be started dog. And you're gonna play a little

bit more false. Let's talk about that. What would uh so, where could people find squirrel dogs? I mean, I know the answer to this, but I had somebody a week ago message be and say hey, where could I find a feist? And I was like, well, where could where? Where could people find squirrel dogs? And folks has got them connections with other hunters, other other folks at squirrel hunt because now are most of the the most of the squirrel hunting world is in the eastern deciduous forest

in the south. Am I right, the southeast. I mean there's squirrel dogs up in New York State and Michigan and different places. Yeah, I mean there's there's squirrel dogs from about the Midwest on east period, but mostly down in this area, southern Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, East Texas, anywhere with oak, hardwood, timber, hickory ridges, Virginia. Yeah, you're gonna find squirrel dogs all the way up to Michigan, Minnesota.

Even somebody if they were looking for squirrel dogs, I'd say, get on Facebook and try to find a squirrel dog forum for their state. Like I think we're We've got Arkansas squirrel and Coon Hunters for Squirrel Hunters Association, And what what you gotta do? And I tell you what I've I've been pretty successful at this is latching myself to people that are good at something, because you don't have to be good starting out if you're latched onto

somebody that's good. I mean, like my coon dogs. I went to guys that had the kind of dogs I wanted. I didn't mess around with well, maybe this dog will work or maybe, and I was willing to do whatever it took to start off something good. And I did the same thing with my squirrel dogs. With with what Jason told me about this these dogs, and I've been, I mean super happy. And it's because because the breeding of a dog is gonna be way more important than

even the training of it. Would you agree, yeah, you want a good bred dog. That's the first step towards getting into this game with the dogs is that get a well bred dog. And that means it's mom and daddy are both doing what you want a dog to do. I steer. I still hear people talk about brood females like, oh, she'd make a she'd make a nice brood female, which basically that just means basically a female that's maybe not

even being hunted. But man, I want a dog that it's mama is a good at whatever, proven proven doing it, and the daddy is proven and doing it and uh. And then once you get your foot into the door, whether it's coon hunting or squirrel hunting, and you go a time or two, you can learn a ton of stuff by going with somebody that knows what they're doing one time. I mean I've learned an I didn't hunt it with Jason, but I've learned a ton from Trey Michael.

I mean really, my son Baron nukeom he uh he I watched him, Michael when we hunt, and he talks his dogs just like you do. He does he he everything he does. I'm like, he learned that from Michael. An here and I do the same thing because I learned from you guys. And see what I'm saying is is if you can just if you can go with somebody a couple of times, you'll learn a lot. And then once you get a dog, you'll learn what you like.

Like you might get lucky in the first dog. Just be exactly what you like, which probably won't happen, could happen, but you'll hunt with you know, you hunt with two or three different people and you'll see a dog and you're like, that's the kind of dog I want and you you you know what bloodlines is that dog? Where did you get it? You just you just kind of

start digging in. There's no simple answer. Now, you can't buy started dogs, and there are quite a few started dogs for sale, but um boy, I'd want to know somebody before I buy started dog though, because in my mind it's always like, why are you selling that dog? Well, most of the time only started dog. They'll take your hunt and let you see the dog. Yeah. Uh. And some of these old boys just sell them because they

got too many. I guess, like, are they enjoyed doing it and they like to make a little dollar or two to pay for their habit. Yeah, you know, so there's there's legitimate reasons to sell a dog. Oh, if you get a started dog, you a whole lot better than a than a than a mule. You don't know what you're getting, yeah what it started meal? Yeah, I'm I'm you don't have to ride that dog. Know that if you go hunting with a fellow that's gonna say that dog if he's if he's legitimate and pretty good,

old boy, he's gonna let you go hunting. He may let you go hunting to it three times, or hey, he might even let you hunt with him and you take the dog home if you pay for it. Yeah, like on a trial, a trial. Yeah, and that's a good way. That's a good term, some good terminology. And if a fella won't let you do that, don't buy his dog. Yeah, take the dog on a trial because

the near love doing that. Yeah. It's like going to you know, going to the store and buying you something, use it a couple of times, and then send it back, get your money back or something. But yeah, he ain't I tell him what he'll have at his house. Where'd you get that dog? Oh, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna say what it'll do. Or I'm gonna try it for a little bit. Yeah, he loves doing that. Yeah, okay, uh, started dogs? What would you general price reigns for a

started one year old dog? I know there's a lot of variants. Just bloodline is gonna depend a lot of you know, there's certain blood lines of dogs five sin curs that are more popular and people are gonna take advantage of that. And but then there's you know, you get a half cur hound or a half FIVET hound that's a super good started dog and get it for eight hundred thousand dollars. Yeah, you know, but you can

you know, that's probably what you guys think. It's probably gonna be that be about that range fresh dogs that start to kill squirrels. But if it's you know, let's just say somebody was one of those boys that championed one of them dogs dropped, and you're gonna buy one that's proven, you know, to get started. You want to proving dog, you just throw it out and you're good to go. I don't know. I mean, it's it's worth whatever somebody wants to give you for it on that day,

that's right. I mean it could be two thousands of four thousand dollars, right, they're not cheap. Yeah, finished dog, I would say, yeah, well, I guess it all depends on how good I finished dog. But undred up. Michael, Well, my son and I usually don't talk about dog prices, but yes, well talk about this. You take you go hunting that day and you kill fifteen squirrels in the afternoon, price just went up. Yeah, I mean that's just the

way it works. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I've been offered some money for a dog before, and I wouldn't take the money because I like the dog. Yeah, So getting somebody to sell one to you that's already finished, it's gonna be tough. Yeah, And that's you got it. You'd have to find somebody like Michael that enjoys training young dogs or or something. And sometimes guy's legitimately need the money or you know, sell a dog, got a need and they got a good dog, and like, I'll sell

that dog for Hey. Let me, y'all follow me on this one and see if you think it's true, because it is true. Um, any kind of animal that you train and start based upon the socio economic status of that region is going to have the same price categorization mules, coon dogs, squirrel dogs, bird dogs, and I can't speak for any part of other part of the country, but

it's all the same. Think about it. What what could you pay for a green broke, half started mule, Well, it depends on what it looked like, how old it was, how started it was. But you could get a green broke mule for eight hundred dollars. What's the started squirrel dog cost eight hundred dollars? A finished mule that's pretty good, that's safe and it's in its prime age range. You're gonna be paying fifteen to eighteen hundred dollars plus all

the way to the top. And you could go in southern Missouri and buy twenty thousand dollar mule from you know, some of these big guys up there, y'all see, you'll see what I'm saying. But you can buy a heck of a And I have quite a few people message me from all of the country about mules. And I had a lady message me the other day and she

said she had a sixteen year old mule. I think it was in Pennsylvania and had been written by an eighty year old man and it was real gentle, but it was sixteen years old, and they were one four thousand dollars for it. And I was like, man, I can't tell you, you know, whether you should do that or not. But I said, in Arkansas you could buy a heck of a mule for four thousand dollars. But it's a different market. We've got a lot of anyway,

I'm off track. Track is categorization any animal that needs training, I mean a coon, dog, any outdoor utilitarian animal about the same going price. That's right. It didn't make sense. Y'all agree? Yeah, okay, so use that scale. So half broke under thousand dollars, medium broke inside of thousands or two thousand, well broke two thousand plus mules, coon dogs, squirrel dogs. Bam, we just made a chart. Take that to the bank. Agree with that, Michael. Michael is kind

of he's I can't read him. He's like a little squirrelly there. Yeah, I can see it, sort of. Okay, Okay, Well I think that's handy because people, you gotta get into these uh you gotta get into these worlds and just kind of dip your feet in to begin to understand it. Um. But no, man, the cool thing about squirrel hunting as you can do it for a long period of time. You can usually hunt on public land. There's not you know, the inside a big game hunting.

There's a lot of competition, I mean in terms of like places to go and man, squirrel hunting for the most part is a pretty I mean, you might go somewhere and there'll be a squirrel hunter there, but that guy is not your enemy because he's there, he's probably gonna become your friend. I mean, he's not mad because you're hunting his buck. Yeah. I mean when you're after big there's there's different it's it's it's it's a little bit higher stakes. But not squirrel hunting. It's such a

it's an opportunity sport. Uh. And I mean, well, have we talked about eating squirrels? But squirrel meats great to eat, they're easy to handle. Um, we've been we've been trying new ways to skin them or to to to eat them like them. But if we missed anything, boys, this this podcast has got to take people from zero to the top of the squirrel world. What can we talk what have we missed? Well, I'd say if you're wanting to get into it, go hunting with quite a few

different dogs. We'll figure out what you want for you. Just go buy one. Yeah, that's good, that's a good one. I'm not a competition hunter, but I'm sure I've been to some before. I'm sure them fellers would love the company, and I love to talk about their dogs. You know, you can meet a lot of different folks at one of them. Yeah, so a competition hunt might be a good place to go. And we didn't even talk about competition hunting. That's a whole another sphere of the squirrel

world that we're not really talking about. We're kind we're kind of just talking about pleasure, hunting, meat and hunting. As they say, we're trying, I know, Michael and Trey and me. I mean, we just want dogs that we can kill squirrels over in the competition world. You're looking for a dog to kind of do it in a specific way. Yeah, it's it's totally different, and I haven't

component since two thousand nine. It's just I love. My favorite thing is at the end of the day seeing taking a picture with all my buddies and seeing squirrels on the tailgate. That's you know, the memories and the hunting and that's what I like. Yeah, so yep, well all right, guys, Hey, thanks to Time. Thank you, Trey, thank you man enjoying it, Michael, thank you sir, thanks for coming out, Jason and Tanks of Time, and uh, keep the wild places wild because that's where squirrels live.