Breeding Big Game Hounds with Steve Herd

your trail cameras. They have batteries for your range finder and everything else that is electronic that you use for your hunting equipment. They have batteries for that. Interstate Batteries dot Com awesome company. Check them out. So I will regret forever the crosses that I did not make with you with them. That's a good statement right there. You'll never regret across that you did make as you can correct it, or you do regret the crosses that you

didn't make because you're gone. You're gone. I mean, the list goes on. There's no other animal in the world that has to be bred to such a consistency of high caliber as what a trailhound. A big game is into me, and and and so far no one has contradicted that statement. By the way, I mean, you know, a show dog has to look for it in the ring, you know, but that's a legal run hounds. You can turn your pots after him. My name is Clay Nukeleman.

I'm the host of the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. I'll also be your host into the world of hunting the icon of North American wilderness. We'll talk about tactics, gear, conservation, but will also bring you into some of the wildest country on the planet. Chasing bear on this episode of the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast, where again with plot breeder Steve heard of Bluff Creek plots and we're specifically talking about breeding big game hounds. You're gonna really enjoy this

podcast with Steve. What a character. Hey, I want to draw your attention to our actual print magazine, Bear Hunting Magazine. Bear Hunting Magazine has been in print for twenty years. We're the only dedicated bear hunting print publication in the world.

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subscriber to Bear Hunting Magazine at bear dash hunting dot com. Secondly, the second thing that you could do to help us would hate give us a review in iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts, like a like a written review, even anything you say would be great. And uh also, you know there's those five stars, and I'm not trying to twist your arm, but it would be great if we could lean far to the right on that line of stars. Right in that five star region. But that

helps us with Google and you know, the Internet and such. Hey, if you're gonna enjoy this podcast with my friend Steve Heard Colt, Welcome to the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. We're here again with my good friend Steve Heard Colton Heard. And as you heard from the last podcast, we we talked about these plot dogs that Steve has been uh involved with his whole life, and we talked about we had all kinds of stories and all kinds of history about his dad and all these is a super neat,

super neat conversation that we had. What I want to do on this podcast, though, is let's hone down our our focus to something that I think you've got some well you've got a lifetime of history with that. I also think you have some unique insight. And beyond unique insight, I think that you're able to articulate a very nuanced subject that probably there's a lot of great dog breeders in the country, animal breeders even this isn't even just about dogs even, but but I find that maybe they

just aren't willing to tell what they know. But but but you are, and no, you're able to articulate some of the things that that you have done and have seen and have experienced and have had the the time to evaluate. I mean, so it's not just like me going out and having the litter of pups and two years later making big assumptions about dog breeding. But what we're gonna talk about is breeding big game dogs and um.

And so you wrote an article for Bare Honey magazine several years ago that had a lot of interest and uh. And you know what, I appreciate somebody that's just willing to say what they think, Steve. I find that a lot of people, if they have strong opinions, they're afraid to say them because they're fearful that people will think they're being prideful. I agree with that, well, but I but I do it anyway. But that's that's not no, no, what you're doing to me. It is right. You're just saying, hey,

this is what I do. I've built, I've done this for a lifetime, this is what I do. I'm not saying it's the best. I'm not saying it's the only way. I'm not saying it's the right way. I'm saying it's the way that and and maybe I can help guide somebody. Maybe I can help guide somebody, but but do it, you know, do it your own way. If it succeeds. Okay, now, and once again, maybe some of it was maybe some

of the first of it was luck. But also but when I knowing what I knew from the from the past history of the dogs, when I made my bouncer to Donna and bouncer to suit crosses, I thought, how can it go wrong when all those old timers have put all their time into this effort of breeding this kind of a dog. And then I have exactly what I'm looking for right here in front of me. So if I breed them together, surely it will turn out

that way. Well. First off, for you to ever, if you're ever going to breed anything, which is like you say, horses, game chickens or whatever. Hey, your history and we didn't touch on it last time, but you you breed horses, they're rich. Irogen steak candas right now, and there's something too before you even dive in, because I know you're gonna jump in, and that's exactly what I want you to do. I want to say that I have I you know, when you think about breeding dogs or breeding animals.

You think that you're dealing with things that are like really tangible, but oftentimes it's the intangible characteristics qualities of these animals that people that just have a knack for breeding animals understand. And by a knack for breeding animals, anybody can put two male and females together and make a litter puss. But to breed animals that have long term, consistent deduction of the qualities that you're after. Okay, here, here's here's something I hate to say, but you have

to say you you are probably born. You are probably born with an instinct to either be able to do it or not. Okay, So I believe that that there's there's natural human beings that are I call him master breeders, and some people don't like that term, but but I believe there. Gola Ferguson was the first master breeder that I know. Okay. He he took a bunch of animals and each generation got better. Okay, and I'm I'm still

using dogs from that generation, those generations of his. But but first off, I had to say that you probably you may have it the ability, you may not have the ability, but if you do have it, you have to hone it. So Colton originally started out, you just didn't want the puffs that he was picking, okay, because they're they're the big, slumpy, the funny one that you know, the one that you want on the porch and you

want to lay on your lap or stuff. But I mean, my granddad was a great breeder of draft horses and mules and all sorts of stuff and showcattle. Okay, so Colton headed in there, but he had to hone that. So craft yeah, yeah, so he so he his little eyes watched his I said, well that looks kind of like Reno, and that kind of looks like scar and and they see that look in her eye. Well you know this pup here, this looks like the right pup. So he picked Usher and that was that was the

very first time that he passed. You know, he passed in flight. So on the previous podcast we talked about how so Culton's here with this Culton's Coulton is a Steve Sun twenty one years old. And then you picked up you picked this dog Buster. So that's why your Ferr, which turned out to be a great dog. And there was the test. There was something that just jumped into the podcast. You said, son, do you see the same thing. I see. There's a nine nine pups, and you picked

the one that your dad I think. I think I actually used to just pick the biggest one, the biggest puff out of the litter, you know, the biggest. I think that's what there are people do that and then sometimes they always picked the smallest. But the you need to pick pick the one that that that acts the most and looks the most and resembles the most to the to the best dogs you've had in the past past.

So so that's part of it, okay, But then breeding it's it's you have to use the word gut feeling in my gut when I when I made that those first two crosses here, I was some kid that you know, from from a from a good family, you know, Dwayne heard. But but I had a gut feeling that if I did this, it was gonna work, okay, because I had seen the Judd dog and that's the way he was read. And so my gut told me if I did the same thing that the other people have done, I was

gonna it was gonna work. And it did, and it did, okay. But there you were using you were using pedigrees, Yes, very much, and you still do. When somebody tells me they don't give a ding about a pedigree, And I would mention some very famous plot me in from the past that said they didn't give a rats rear about a pedigree. And guess what, they never read for more than one generation. They would breed and they sell, and they never produced. They never produced three generations ever. And

it's extreme. I've said it in my article for your myazing. It's extremely hard to breed for three generations and and not lose what you started with. Because people make bad decisions because they're gut told them to do something that probably shouldn't have been done. Okay, but there's just there's there's there's tangible deals. Uh, so many things. The color of a dog can make a difference because that that dog inherited that color coat from some dogs in the past.

So were those lighter brintle dogs, were they as good as the darker brintle dogs. Well, history tells you know they weren't. So you first off, you have to know the history of what you're doing, whether you're breeding horses once again or anything. And and see that would be a little bit of a controversial thing, right Exactly. A lot of people say, well, color doesn't matter at all. Yeah, okay,

but but for each strain it does. Okay, if you're if you're gonna go, if you're gonna go buy you a milk cow and you wanted a lot of production, You're not gonna go buy a Herford cow. You're gonna go buy a cow with great, big white cow with big black spots on them. Okay, because you know why that color is a holsting and they produce milk indicator.

It's an indicator. Well, And and once again I had Dan Wagner's a good buddy of mine, and we talked genetics all the time, and even and he he doesn't want to agree, kind of Daniel, you'll enjoy this, but but he but he does, but he does, you know, agree that somehow I see something that other people don't see.

And and there's just certain things in a dog. And if I there's a certain look to a dog, and if I see it could be the color could be a little bit handy looking, feet might be a little bit spreadled, and and that I exclude that dog from

from my from even my possibilities. Okay, and so someday down the line, said Stella died five weeks breakdant to Bold said, you know, maybe somewhere down line, I'm going to trip up, and I'm not gonna be able to find that dog I need to great, although I think there's a lot of possibilities out there still, Okay, and uh So it's it's what do you if we could even dial it back, Okay, go ahead, what would you say the fundamentals of uh and and and maybe that's

what you've been talking about. What what are the fundamentals of good three? The greatest dogs I've ever seen were from the greatest pedigrees that I've ever seen, and those and a great pedigree means that these dogs were. But when you when you look at a pedigree, when you look at Judge pedigree, you saw, you know, one of the best reproducers in the nation right there, You're you're looking at the greatest the greatest female. Uh the greatest

two females in the nation at that time. We're right there and so and they were all complete really related cousins to each other. So how could you how could you not be right by attempting to do this. Now, I have made my mistakes, but I buried my mistakes. Okay, I mean, you know, some of those gut feeings didn't quite work out, but even them, even then, sometimes those gut feelings, I knew, I'm not sure about this, but let's give it a try. And sometimes it just flat

didn't work. And and sometimes you can take two dogs that are really well bred, but they share a common ancestor. Uh, my Cindy female was really hyper well. One time, accidentally we made it a daughter of Cindy to a mail to uh, to a female of Cindy. And and somebody thought that would be a wonderful petigree. It should look It looked good on paper, but I knew that's if you put Cindy in there that close twice, that something

was gonna work. So so I would I would wish like heck that I could have talked to Golda Ferguson, because he said that with each generation he started, he added, he added a high tan, kind of a black and tan, but not a like a registered black and tanbit he ordered added a high tan into his plot family and produced the saddleback plots, which would have been North Carolina,

Tom and Nichols, Stormy and all those. And with each generation his dogs got a little smaller and a little darker, and eventually they were all There's no there was no light colored dogs lifting there. Okay, so the light daughter the light. There's be a lot of people listen to this plot, people that say, well, you know, my dogs are light colored and they suit me fine. But they're from a different strain than what I'm talking. Okay. And if you had an Isaiah kid dog or Croctitter crocodigle,

they're gonna be light because that's what color they were. Okay, So if you want to go catch a hog and you want a Tator crocod dog, they're gonna be lighter colored dogs. And that I'm not taking anything away from them. I'm just saying the wams Bluff Greek strain did as falls and strain. They what you were doing your best dogs with the darker dog and then the color of white. Uh. There. I went to plot the in m p A h A National Plot Hand So yeah, m P h A about five years ago, and what I saw in the

grounds was earth shaking. It was I just saw dogs of every color. I would see one litter of puppies out of a Grand Knight Champion mail and there was seven pups in there, and there was six different colors of pups in the litter, and white all over them. Well that white. Some of the plots back in the

past had some white in them. But I have a whole stack of pictures right here in front of me, okay, And if you look through them, and I show you all the all, the very best, the very best twelve and the very best twenty, there's not one dog, not one single dog with excessive white on the on their They have a lot of them have white on their on their on their chest, but up their legs. Never,

not once ever that shows impurity. It always has. And by the way, when my dad got in, dad loved those dogs and he kept thinking he needed more of them, and he got several dogs from several people. I have the pictures in here right here. I'll show them for you before you leave. And and and the ones that didn't look like plots, did not hunt like plots. The ones that had the white all over them, and they

were there was it. You just went backwards immediately. So uh, And there's there's just there's a lot of just little teeny things that I believe makes the difference between breeding good dogs and breeding exceptional dogs. But most of it is eyesight, and a lot of us is hunting, and a lot of it is you know, when you send the puppies out, let everybody, let's let you know, like your ferm female, I need to know exactly how that letter turned out, Okay, And would I make it again?

Of course I would, you know if if if buster was still a love, of course I would. So, So what talk to me about line breeding? And you're because that's that's something that maybe a lot of people wouldn't you know, have steered away from a lot of people would probably it was totally familiar with it. It It was taboo.

Linebreeding originally was taboo you want unrelated dogs. Well, when as soon as you did, you just killed whatever you had, Okay, I mean by killing, I'm talking about you killed the genetics, so what you had. So then later it was became what they kind of called liebreeding, which would you bread a cousin to a cousin, which means that you know, three generation pedigree. You'd have maybe two dogs and there who were either brother and sister or were similar or whatever.

And then all of a sudden we found out that maybe the closer you bread those dogs, the better they did. And then we started doing inbreeding, which was you know, bare Pats Gunner to to to Becky. They were both by the same daddy and their mother. There were three quarters sisters, and we breed made that cross and oh my gosh, the pups were better than anything before. So so when you when you keep adding real good stuff to the mix, it doesn't dilute the mix. It increases

the chances of that of the mixed working. And so what people the kind of the colloquial knowledge I guess, if that's a good way to say it of inbreeding would be that you'd produced dogs that were inferior in some way and that five legs and run back have real big health problems. Let me let me I would like to make a statement about that, because my some people have had my my uncle got a Schnauzer. They

were big into Schnauzers. They bought these schnauzers and they bought them from a reputable breeder quote unquote, quote unquote, and the dogs end up having health problems when they were older, and he found out that they were bred real clothes, and he said, yeah, inbreeding is bad, or

you know, slide breeding is bad. The difference between what that breeder was doing with Schnauzers and what you guys are doing with bear dogs is that these dogs are being bred based upon performance in the field over the lifetime and so health problems. I mean, point me, and those Schnauzers were just bred to be house dogs and have these phenotype or just this external look. You guys are breeding for physical performance and if they don't have it,

you you're limited. You don't So that that to me makes rational sense of how and then all these dogs aren't physically have some problem and and and once again back to the article. If folks, if you haven't seen the article, you really need to read it as you as you read your dogs really close. If if you do have a physical fault or something shows up, then

you can eliminate it from the gene pool. Okay, I mean you're harvesting off the bed jeans and and eliminating sometimes and this isn't what you're doing over and over every time. I mean, it's a the most I don't want to I want to say that right away. It's an extreme case where you would breathe as close as the gunner back across. Yeah, And you know I haven't done it again, but I would, if you know, if

I thought yeah. And I just want to make that clear because somebody you're not saying you're breathing brother and sister together all the time. No, no, no, no, no no no. But but don't do not not make a cross because you're afraid to do close. Give it a try, give it a try again. And once again, my famous statement is I never regretted across I ever made, because

I could eliminate it if it didn't work. But I so desperately I'd never read the jud dog to Sue, and they were half brother and sister, and I wish I would have, but people thought it was too close. And so I will regret forever the crosses that I did not make with you know, with them. That's a good statement right there, that you'll never regret across that you did make because you can correct it. But you do regret the crosses that you didn't make from because

they're gone. You're gone. Yeah, Dad had a chance. Dad had a chance to take real grand Trouble to Cape Gerard, Missouri and breed to Rag Nicholas's world famous stormy dog. It was her uncle. Most people thought it was too close, But had he have done that, it would have been the strongest bloodline cross ever made in the plot breed as far as I know. Okay, it would have been nor it would have been a smokey Cubby on top bread to a daughter of a smoky cubby onto a

daughter of of plots Fanny and Lady. But it would have been the strongest pedigree of all times. And it would still you would still be seeing it in pedigrees everywhere. Okay, so we're what we do. Dennis Fawlson was one of the originators. I hope Dennis is still alive, but we wish you could hear this. Uh. He taught me some things.

You know, stack, stack all those good dogs that you possibly can, because what you're doing, you're filling holes in that pedigree, and you're replacing a weaker dog with a really really good dog, and when you get him anit or enough, you can kind of know what's gonna come out the other end. You were a kins what about you said something on the earlier podcast about you know you've got a If you want a stack of gold,

you can't start with bricks and painted. I mean, talk to somebody that maybe give somebody some advice that's just getting started or wanting to create a dog. Don't ever, don't ever start a breeding program with dogs that are not as good as you possibly can get. Ahold of what Okay, let me let me throw some gasoline on the fire. What if you had a dog that had a really strong trait that you liked, but he was super weak and a bunch of other areas you said a bunch and that when when you said a bunch

that elimited that dog? Okay, if you if you just said one maybe you know, maybe a a little bit shy here. Well then, because I think what happens is guys will guys will get a dog that's strong in one area. He likes this dog, but he's got weakness here, and so he'll breed another dog trying to create eliminate the weakness, but actually he just gets more of the same. You know, I keep I keep having to repeat myself, but in the bear hunting article in there, oh no,

I just forgot my my trade of thought. I was watching the Clean the Table. H yeah, start overs. Yeah, back me up. Okay, what what I've what I've heard people say is don't breed a dog that you wouldn't want another one exactly. Yeah, I mean, don't don't breed dogs just to be breeding dogs, if you if you like you know, I want to know the buster. I

want another Stella. And I told Colton on the way down, I've got a couple of crosses in mind, and if something works here in the next couple of months, we're gonna have another one of them supercrosses. Okay, and I already know how it's gonna work out. Okay, But but but I I want to I want to produce even higher than I have have produced, or at least that

at least that good. And you know, don't ever, there's a I guess you'd call a famous strand of dogs bare dogs that started and then and the guy is a really good guy, and and he he tells that he began with a female that needed corrected in this and this and this and this department, like five or six departments. Okay, and guess what it's been. She's been

dead for twenty five years. And that line of dogs still needs corrected, and also that you do you just if you're lucky enough to get started with the greatest thing you can possibly find, and if if you can't, then stand in line, get a pup out of it, out of what you're looking for, and then go from there do everything you can post. So have you ever done I mean, I guess you've done outcrossing that different times? When do you outcross? You know? You don't? You don't know.

And once again that'll be an argument. You know, if we were sitting around guys, they'll say, oh, eventually you have to, but no, no, you don't know what you do. Why why would you if you if you had a bunch of dogs that you could we rate nine and tens, why would you outcross to another strain that's that that only produces sixes and sevens? Well what if they produce nines too? Though? It's I mean, but you know what I'm saying, I know what. They're not out there. Yeah,

I'm sorry, but they're not. I mean, I know I'm saying that. I'm saying that that each of us probably has our Well, I guess the question I'm asking is that if you had some really good dogs from another family dogs and he had another totally said, I mean they getting meat and tail way back, same breed of dogs. I mean that still may not work. Well, no, no, because there's you can have pure milk and you can

have pure oil. Both of them are your necess necessities. Okay, but if you put them together, what do you got you gotta miss? So what I'm saying, I mean, I'm sorry, And this is what it's worked for you. We said this at the beginning, but I like here and your unfiltered thoughts, because this is the way that you've done it, and it's worked for you. If you include I have all these pictures here, If you include dead's dogs, we

have a living generations. Okay. And with that old trouble female is that that got out of the creek when I was four years old? Well who and you told me to just speak out, and I really kind of hate you. Who can claim the same that for sixty six years the very first dog you ever saw, is you you still have that line, that very same line of dogs eleven generations later, sixty six years later, that would be six years per strain. Nobody can say that.

And by the way, we didn't have to keep jumping from one strain to another strain to another strainer to try to find him. Dad started with what he thought was the best, and we bread to the best, and we still have that same line of dogs right here and there is consistent. Is opened up a can of you know, viing a sausage. I mean, they're all just Steve. Have you could so with your history with breeding thirdbred horses and cattle and different things, are there any are

there parallels? Are there anything that you learned? Well? Yes, okay, the the quarter horse people finally kind of made it okay to breed real close and nobody in the horse world. It takes too long to do. You know, nine three there in forty days for a baby colt to be born from the time it's conceived, and then you got another year before you get it all weaned and you know, started in training. Then you have another year before you find out what it's gonna do, whether it's a roping horse,

a race horse, or whatever. It takes so long and so much energy and so much time too. You can't experiment like you can space with game chickens. By the way, game chickens where I still keep some around just for fun. And and they were the first people to really start learning how to breed animals. Okay, then the dogs, you can do that, because you can. You know, you get two letters pups a year. But they're afraid. There's the third red people in the quarter. Of course, people are

still afraid to breed really really close. You just don't. You just don't see it happening. And I would like to. I think I'm getting too old to do it. But what I did when I took my I had a staying named Speeding Niuginski and and his dad was a famous horse from from uh He won the trouble crown in Europe. Okay. And what I did was I looked for for for mayors that were very close to him,

and I took him from a slaughter truck. I was he was gonna get loaded onto hold of the slaughter and I made him the second leading stade in the state of Kansas for several years and his colts earned over a million bucks. Okay. And what I did was I bread two mayors that that had similar pedigrees to what he had. By the way, that would include Seattle, Slew and Secretariat. Okay, they came from the same family

of horse. So using my knowledge of dog breeding, I and now I have another staying up there, and and I'm doing the same thing I'm trying to find. I'm trying to find clig kind of tired of reason over and pulling that we could tie them from seating. But uh but uh, you know what I'm doing with him

is doing the same thing. I'm trying to find mayors that you so you took your dog breeding knowledge, and and we're gonna and we have we have a mayor right now that I'm gonna prag check money and if she's in full, we're gonna see just how far uh I mean, I think we're gonna have a tremendous horse that there's no reason for her not to Okay, and once again go back, Well, my speeding Agnski's horse, his sister won the Kentucky Oaks and she was she was

purchased for three point four million dollars and took over to you know, Arab Emirates or whatever. So we we were in the right crowd at the time. But the Kansas doesn't you know, we're not real big in their red breeding up there, and most good horses, bread or bread in Kentucky. And once again, those people down are spend millions of dollars to breed and they still can't

produce another their secretariat. Well, you know, people, a lot of people think they've produced another barre path of Gunner. But the truth is nobody else has. And we may neighbor, you know, we're still trying, okay, And of course Colton thinks that Buster could have still ran every step of the way with him, and guess what, we'll never know. And he might have, He really might have. But they don't come by. It's not like picking apples off a tree. Okay.

There really exceptional ones of anything are are very rare, you know. And you know, and once again in on the plot boards, you know, when we've done a lot of arguing, some people say, oh my god, the dogs are so much better than they used to be in the horse are better than the used tob I said, well, secretary, record, we're set in nineteen seventy three. All three of them, the Preakness of elmat in the Kentucky Tory. They've never

been touched, no one's ever run close to them. So and hey, that is a good question that I think a lot of people ask, probably on all the forums for any kind of dog, is that, Yeah, do you think the dogs are getting better? There's more good dogs. There's more good dogs because people in this day and age won't keep the junk, and a lot of times people just kept junk. A lot of people just kind

of like to have a dog tied out there. But but there's I don't know where to go lay my hands on another Gunner or another Stella or another Buster or another you know, uh time X of Joe Hudson's or you know those super dogs. I don't I don't know where to go find one right this minute. Okay, I mean we're all hoping we have that we have one. But if you haven't seen exceptional, you don't know how to rate exceptional. Okay, that's that's that's something else that

we say. Joe Hudson, I say the same thing. If you haven't seen it, you don't really know what you're talking about. Yeah, you think you do, So would you say that you're trying to like hold the line though, I mean, like if you think about no. But but once again, we're producing at such a high level that each person that gets them thinks it's the rest of redist dog they've ever had. Once again, the Jackpot, you know up there, Stubby Ryan, stubble Phils Jackpot is just

an exceptional dog. Okay. And and they're out there there, I mean even you know, there's several of that of that generation out there. Talk to me about the differences between dogs and the literacty because you know, we all know that not every dog, I mean, even a well bred, well bred litter, not every dog is going to be a phenomenal dog phenomen as they So you know, you're

trying to as a breeder. One of the key things in breeding, I believe because I've seen it in other breeders as well as that you've got to keep your eye on a whole litteral dogs. You know, a lot of guys and other different uh disciplines of dog. Uh. You might have a litter of pups and sell these pups and lose track ups, so you don't really know, you don't get that feedback. Bear hunters are very good. Big game hunters are good keeping dogs close or keeping

keeping reports, getting reports back on dogs. And yeah, when I sent you know, and you can breed back to really good dogs, like, for instance, that when I got my fern from you that June, well, I was Bold in June when you ended up, you know, keeping track of Bolden June. And then you know, Bold ended up being a dog that you wanted to bring back into And so if you had just been a guy just not keeping track, you would have never known about that. No, No, I know. I when I set a pup to somebody,

they have to report in you. And the truth is if they don't, then they you know, they called me back four years later. I know. You know, that's why I text you at eleven o'clock at night. And Travis Staves has always been wonderful. He you know, he just Travis said a lot of my dogs and he texts me from the tree all the time. He used to thrill my mom and dad to death. I would be in New Mexico or Alreader or Utah or West constin

Michigan and call them from a tree. The dog's barking in the background, and my dad would just be thrilled to death. Mom said, you ought to see me actually like a little kid over here. You know the worst they got that bear tree. Listen to this. You can hear that just I mean, and he never got to go to a tree. Joe Hudson told me that if I would bring him up there, you know, a year before he passed away, that he would carry him to a tree. Said if if if we treat a bear,

I'll carry all the way. So and I wish, I wish we would try to, you know, get a one of them travois or whatever the Indian people'head, you know, get him to the trees so you get the And to go back to what I was saying. And I don't know if there's a real question inside of this question, but like like, uh, differences in a litter, Like if you have pups, there's gonna be one of them. That's

that's good. And yeah, Colton and I I'm not saying Brenda because brand has been living on his own for a long time, but Colton has been at home all this time, and we there's there's an odd and I've been asked this question, why is it that out of the eight pups in the litter, that the two that you keep are always the best. And I've seen that happens. It's because they get to run loose on the creek. They get, they get given every everything in the where and then I'm gonna I have to say it again.

We don't use electricity on our dogs. We do not use it. Uh. My strain of dogs has always been wide open. Some people tell me now that they're becoming quiet, and the reason they're becoming quiet they can't stand that shock there that they still want to hunt, but they're afraid to open your mouth because they're afraid somebody's gonna bust them. You know what I'm saying, And I so what what I'm hearing you say, though, is good. You're you're letting these litters run loose. And if so, you

guys are watching these dogs. Yeah, and that's why when we take them anywhere, that's why, when we take them anywhere, they're always in shape. Our dogs. You'll never see them behind because they've been running loose for so long. They're they're slender, and they're ready to get. The very first time we hunted with Joe, Jenny and Bernie and Travis and all those guys, what what whether What they wrote on the plot site was what we were so surprised about.

Steve drove all night long, slept from four o'clock in the morning till seven o'clock in the morning three hours got up the next day, the dog still on the dog box and went hunting, drump loose and Steve dogs still ran on the front end, and they said, how does that happen? First off, their coon dogs, and they've been in to create all this, all the way up here. And he gets them out and let some potty and

stuff a little bit, and all of a sudden they're leading. Uh. We took Nelly and Reno up there and and put down on a bear. There was seven seven seven trucks, dogs hanging out everyone and and Joe Jenny led me in there and we put those two dogs down. And I said, why do you want these coon dogs to start the bear? And let's just see what they'll do. And I did and and he said later when he was running, said, by the way, we'll never see this where he always disappears. And later that day we killed

that bear. They run him out of the forest, run him up the tree. He came down two or three times, and he said, that's the first time we've ever seen this bear. We've running but we never could see. And I brought those but the once again. So you're you're keeping dogs based upon merit when they're young? What are

you looking for? Because I gotta reel you in here, Steve so because we were talking about how because you guys are sending out all these dogs, and people say, how do you guys end up with the good ones? You're watching them when they're young? Yeah, what are you looking for? What are you looking for in a pub? Just the best thing in the living? Yeah? Everything? You know?

I mean, what your dog bringing those dead rabbits and there's somebody's not shooting those rabbits for that dog that dogs run me into a hole and getting them, digging them out and bring them up there and kill them. But okay, the Stella's litter Jinga Darrell uh Stella sender uh Michigan Todds wonderful female might be one more anyway, at four months and three days old. I have a

picture of them treat on squirrels in a bluizzard. Now I have the picture, and they're they're all treat and nur's about six inches of snow on the ground and it's snowing hard, and they are locating a con in the top of a cottonwood tree. So there's not a dead couirl a squirrel, a squirrel, not a bear, not a not a mountain lion, but a dang squirrel. Why was a squirrel at that? So as a breeder, you're you're watching there every day, Yeah, I see you're watching

on a given day. I handle my pups ten times, twelve times. You know what I'm saying. I mean they were they go with me, you know, they and and um the best pup out of the Reno litter, out of Banjo Cindy. He got killed when he's four and a half months old. And his name was Banjo too. I can't believe I named a pup after his daddy already. Banjo was only fourteen months old when he died, and this puff was four months a half months old. Dad came in the driveway, brought it, brought a coon in

a cage. We put it out there. The pupps had a scream and fit about it. Uh once again to that whole litter, and they all turned out to be fantastic dog. So when we got all done, and when Dad took out there in the old Chevy pick up, he threw that coon the back of that thing. And he come back in about ten minutes, and I said, what's the better? He said, look at this pup. He said, this pup was tied onto my bumper. He said, I

drove halfway to town. He said, this pup won't quit, and and and and when he took the pup out, the pup run around behind the pick up again and start baying on that tail gate that pick up. Now, the other pups were bark a little bit, but this pup went crazy. Well, that pup tried to take a female away from a full grown male dog and was killed right there, four and a half months old. But he was he was in the Dad said, that's the

next very pass gunna right there. So I had already picked that pup out of that litter to be my replacement, okay, and then when he died, Reno stepped up. Okay. But but once again, when you get to see it there, it's it's unfair advantage for us to be able to do this, but that's how we're able to. So you don't you're not selling pups when they're six weeks old, you know, I just can't. I can't stand to because how you don't know you don't know what you got, so you like to sell him at what or you're

not selling five five or six months? Attributed him at five or six months, And that's good. That's a good word for you after you've watched him. Oh yeah, because I can tell you I can already tell you exactly what's gonna what's gonna happen, you know, I can tell I can tell you that that little ferns gonna start trading and she's gonna start treating and all that sort

of stuff just run away. So yeah, okay, well, and that's a that's a notable thing with uh for a dog breeder to be able to do that, to be able to watch the dogs that long and you learn so much. You know, what I hear you saying, is that as because we're you know, on this we're trying to talk about breeding big game dogs, is that you've got sixty years of history and you've you've noted different characteristics about these dogs that and the best ones, the

best ones from each generation. There were certain traits like like Buster, there were certain traits that you you want more of those? You know, I want ten more like that right there? You know, instead of saying well, I guess I'll try to cross and see if I get one good puff. That's the way you do. And and once again, when you can't do it, then you should quit. And and some people some people won't quit. What the reputation that the Bluff Creek line has um is consistency.

And you know exactly exactly you get you get ups even like me, uh several years ago, didn't We described this on the last podcast. But I have two dogs that I got directly from you, and uh and I described my dog to a guy and he knew it was a Buff Creek dog and he could have told me the same thing, and he just said, most of those dogs are gonna be like that, you know. And uh so so producing that consistency is a significant thing

with anything. By the way, if you can be consistent at whatever you do, if you're a basketball player and you can shoot three poinners consistently, that's that's a big deal, you know, instead of just saying, hey, I hit one last game. You know, so, consistency is extremely important. But once again, the only way to be consistent is to is to breed your dogs so tightly that there's no escape tunnels. There's no way of of of losing that stuff unless and unless it's unless it's a frequent nature

accident or something. You know, we can't have this podcast too without hearing you say what you're breeding for, Steve. And and let me say that, I I believe that you're breeding for a really balanced town, a natural balanced town that's got a good nose, that's fast, that's gritty enough to pressure a bear, but not so greaty to get exert exactly, um, that has intelligence, intelligence and locating well smaller framed dog. And then but you I want to hear, I want to hear you say. You just

said it every bit of itself. And I'm only gonna just say no. But you you have to have why would you want a dog? Why would you want a dog that that can't outstrike the other people's dogs and can't out run the other people's dogs, and he's just gonna quit and come out, But or you go ahead and find them dead on the ground. I don't want that either. And so you want that dog to live tenures so you can have a lot of fun with it and reproduce. Uh, you know you don't want a

coward dog. But but I want. I want. I want something difference than a lot of true bear hunters do. And some of them just want so much grit, and they they're you know, they're happy about about the vet bills, and I'm not. Okay, I can't be happy about vet bills because I can't pay them, Okay, So and then I just want. I just thought the point I was gonna try to tell you about it going. The hardest animal in the world to raise, to me, I mean, I'm talking. A racehorse has to run a milk how

has produced bilk. A fat hog has a show pig even has to just look good in the ring and then someone butchers him. But a hound has who has the nose to strike cold and the brains to run a track, and the the ability to pick up a loose and the the ability to locate, and the fact that they'll stay treed for a long, long, long periods of time, even under a rough tree, with rough with

other rough dogs. And then when the game comes down, or if a dame the game does come down, the grit to stop it and hold it for hours and hours and hours, the endurance to be able to run for hours and hours and hours and and the toughness for deep water, cold temperatures, rough feet. I mean, the list goes on. There's no other animal in the world that has to be read to such a consistency of high caliber as what a trailhound, a big game hound is into me and and and so far no one

has contradicted that statement, by the way. I mean, you know, a show dog has to look pretty in the ring, you know, but that's all. He doesn't have to doesn't have to bark. So there's more specific traits that have to guess what that's your point that is, okay, And even a voice, a voice loud enough that you can hear him, and and and also a natural stream. You

gotta have all these things that if there's one I'm missing. Okay. Now, once again, my dad did not invent that trait, and I didn't invent that trade, and every wellams didn't, but we knew where to go get him from the people who did, Okay, And what we were lucky enough to

do is get that first breathing stock. And we we have been able to hold onto dogs that do everything I just told you all this time, and we didn't inve any of it, but we know how to hang onto do gut gut feeling and kind of stepping outside the normal way that some people breed animals. You know. So, but but never never never never stepped down, never stepped backwards and think, well, I'm gonna try this because you

know this might work. I mean, try it. But if it doesn't work, please don't rebreath that, don't you know, just let it go. Yeah, let me. I'm gonna try to summarize, Coulton. You can, you can help me here. Maybe I'm trying. I'm gonna try to summarize what I've heard you so is that you well, family line breeding or in breeding is a good thing if if done right, you you're never gonna produce traits out of a dog

that it doesn't already have in it. Um. I've heard you say that you've got to you've got to breed. You've gotta inside of your breeding program, you've got to have access to the best dogs of the litters. And you've been able to do that by watching them for the first six months of their life, letting them run free, seeing how they respond to all the game that are running around your house. I mean, so you're you're not You're not having to see him chase a bear to

know that he will chase a bear. Hold On, don't stop me. Hold On. There's three and then um, the fourth one is you can always amend a mistake in breeding by just not breeding again with those dogs, But you can never get back a dog that passes away that you never bred. You said you'll never You'll never regret you, You'll never you The only thing you regret is the crosses that you didn't make exactly so. And

then long periods of time too. I mean, like this is like you you've you you're seventy years old, and you've been doing this for well, I mean you've been around it your whole life, right, and so just you've got to evaluate these things based over long, long periods of time and experience. Those four things are kind of big ones so much. You know, if you if you're if your experienced seeing those dogs in the woods every day,

you kind of know what you're looking well. And you know, maybe a fifth thing too, that I heard you say that maybe needs a little bit of clarification is that you are looking for physical traits. I mean, like you said, like like a black a darker plot is what the Bluff Creek dogs. Historically, if your dogs have been they call them creakers anymore that you know Joe Hudder, Joe, I'm sorry, Joe, Joe Walker, and he's dead. They said, well, this is like a creaker here and you can tell.

And so for your you're not saying that the only good plots are black. That's not what I'm saying. So you're saying from your strain of dogs over since the years of evaluation, the best dogs were black. So why would you And you're saying, but dark, dark, brown, I'm sorry, brown or black. You're right, So why would you breed to dog that wasn't that and expect to get But I mean, yeah, okay, but once again, if you have a lighter brittle dog, uh, then breed to a real

dark brintle dog and then keep the darker pops. You know, just brought the bat. When Colt went out there and sorted to see that litter that day, he sorted too light brintle males out and the three three female uh I think there was yeah, three or four, there was three females, and he sorted those pups out and only he left was five black, four black brittle pups, okay, And he looked through them and look through them, and

pretty soon he picked up this one. He looked at me and I didn't I didn't bat my eyes, and he laid it back down. He picked up the next one over. He said, this one right here, and I said that too. That's that's the he said, I'm gonna call him buster. I said, that's fine, you just call him whatever you want to call him. Uh, well, that's uh. I think those five things and we could those that's what I'm here. And you say, which is is well, super, Start with the best you can find, Maintain the best

you can find. Never be fooled, never ever, ever be fooled about a dog. If if if you're a dog, you think he's the greatest thing in the world, and you hunt with something that's way way better than you're probably don't have the best dog in the world, you know, so so you know yeah, And it's it's it's it's it's simpler. It's simpler than it seems. But most people,

almost everybody, wants to change everything they get. They want to dog people want to change the colors, change the size chains the mouth, change this, and those old those old people had perfected. Don't change anything, don't change anything at all. Yeah. I heard you say that one time, and that you said, don't try to change your dog. Yeah, don't go get the dog. You can't. Yeah, you can't

change your line of dogs. You just you know, if you get them like And once again, there's been some major strains that have been crossed together that both of them were really good lines. But very few times does it improve over either one of the strains. And in

other words, I like a little different dogs. Somebody about else might have dogs that do just like mine, but maybe they're dogs would be really gritty, and maybe they're spend a lot of time at the bed places, and and I that's just a that's a day out of hunting. And that's you know, you're that's that's that's just not good. Now. The dude pup that I raised, very intelligent pup out of Butch and Stella, and he's in he's in a ventanry hospital in Idaho, right, and he got caught by

a bead bear. But we don't it's really steep up there. I'm wondered he wouldn't in a canyon. I'll find out. And he couldn't get away because he normally you know, nips and nips and nips and bis and bass bass for our star. But he hadn't been caught that bad, but he got caught bad. So yeah, Colton thoughts on breeding. Final thoughts here before we close down. When you get when you get Steve heard talking about reading better. That's many words. I think one thing that was left out

to it you had asked it before. When you're looking at the litter of pups too, I think that you you also look for extreme brain for a dog when you have a literal pups and out there, you know, you have some trying to you know, eat butterflies, and you know, kind of smelling the other dogs, you know, running around, but you kind of just have something that just kind of sit back and and have that look

of out him, you know. And then when you you have all have them all together and stuff, and you know, there's just certain things that you look for, like that that show, that show that showed showed the intelligence of a Dogsbuster, when I looked at Buster's litter, Buster didn't you didn't. He didn't see him doing anything goofy, but he just looked straight at you just like he was.

You know, he was ready for hunting when you turn him loose, when you when you turn him loose, and we were getting ready to turn him into a bear tree. You didn't. He wasn't sniffing dogs, he wasn't barking at random stuff, he wasn't sitting. He was focused, extremely focused on on on bear and that's what sets him apart. So I think I think brains has an extreme, extremely big impact on on when you're when you're picking out the right dog out of a litter. So yeah, yeah,

that's good, really good. Well closing thoughts, Steve Well, thank you for having us. I enjoyed talking and and I once again young people or even old people, people that that are in the need for something really special should know that there's still places out there to get it. And I'm not just talking about that bluff Greek you know, protection candidate. I'm talking about there are there are still

people out there that are raising really good dogs. And and don't just because you can get something for fifty dollars don't mean you should go get it for figet dollars. And to try to find if you really want something good, expect you know, expect to go to go meet somebody and then ask a lot of questions. But but you know, there's still people out there produced really good dogs, and everybody deserves a really good dog. If if if you deserve a good dog, then then you know, if go

find it. And and uh, it's like like when you got firm. Okay, you know you guys deserve your you and your family. I thought you deserved a really good dog, So I sent you a really good dog. And she turned out to be that way. That's just the way she turned out to me. That's what she was supposed to do, you know. And then and then Todd Boswell up there. He showed me some pictures on the flock news side and there was a lot of off color dogs and I made a little comment. I said, uh,

where's the brintle in this picture? And he was not very happy with that, and he said, well, I'll be honest with you, I can't find one that I like. Okay. So I sat there out though. That's not right, So I said, I called him, said, Todd, I got a pop. I said, it's out of Nelly and Reno, and I'm gonna send you this pup. Well, how much. I said, I'm giving it to your kids. Well, I don't know, I guess so, and I sent it up there and he still calls me. He still says, Mr Herd, I

am so indebted to you. I am so indebted because I my kids and me finally got to see what everybody else was talking about. And he said, I can't go into stories because I got a lot of friends. I can't tell you what all I've seen. But he said, it's incredible. So that's Stella's litter. Okay, God, I wish I had them back mercy. Anyway, I don't wanna get tarried. I want to get teared up here. So anyway, yeah, great, Well, yeah, thanks again guys for it. Thank you, thank you for

driving all the way out here. And this has been it has been super fun. And uh yeah, I just want to reiterate too, I said at the beginning, I said it again. I've seen a lot of people in the hound world. They're afraid to just say what they think because they're afraid it will come across as arrogant

or like they know it all. Man, it does no good to to well, if you're trying to have a conversation, for somebody to hold back, and you know, when you're not afraid that they're not saying, and there's no I can't lie to you, So there's no reason for me to tell you something I don't believe. And the truth is everything I told to you, I do believe. And

it has got me through so many generations. And I hope for at least two truthtre more I've got, I've got across, I've got a special cross coming, and I you know, I just I hope it works. I think it was. We're gonna use the last semen of the Butch, the less strow the Butch seemen, and we've got a female out of Stella. I don't have her, but we're gonna get her back. And I think we're gonna have another one the supercrosses well. And and here's the thing that I want to say too, is that I could

have another. You know, there there are other there are other guys that have had long standing strains and dogs that have had success, tremendous success, and they did it their own way, and then they might be setting here and say something slightly different. They may hear this and say, Nope, that didn't work for me. What he said, And so people have the right to hear this information and evaluate it. Take take what works for them. What you're saying, it's

worked for you. That's what it worked for me, worked for you. And I'm just telling you I'm late. That's how I laid it out. And I studied one dog and one pedigree, and I'm still here from my cheane seveno until now from from land there on the floor, Brandon was you were born seventy Okay. He was just a little cheeny baby when I did all this, and uh and it's still after all these years from that one old dog taught me that much. So keep your keep your mind open and learn learned what you can it.

It worked for me, So it worked. We might name this podcast it worked for me. I like that. I like that. I like that. Yeah. Well, okay, as we always say at the end of the podcast, keep the wild places wild because that's where the bears live exactly. And then if it's legal, run hounds. You can turn your plots after him. Okay, good to you.