Ep. 79: Bear Grease [Render] - Oklahoma Sheriff, a Farrier, and Undercover Debrief

That right there? I think that's some hackberry bigger stumps. We're sitting around a hackberry fire. It's November the third and we're in southeast so Lahoma. And you may have heard of one week in November which is meat Eaters, Meat Eaters Whitetail Show. We're down here whitetail hunt and uh, I've got a very eclectic group of guests, um that I'm going to introduce individually, Cherry. Do you know that

typically the Beargrease Render, which that's what this is. This is the Render, So Beargrease podcast is where we where we have a documentary style, big, robust story. The render is where we just gather up a group of people that talk about it. Typically there's there's one group of people, which is my wife Brent Reeves, who now we all suspect we're we're we're we're curious of his reasons for being my friend, uh, my dad, um Josh Spellmaker, Misty Nukam,

my lovely wife. And then a sixth person that bounces around from a lot of different people. For the last several weeks, I've been on the road and so I've been having renders with all kinds of different people, and you get really people like that, but they're but there. They also like the regular crew. So anyway, it's it's good to be in southeast Oklahoma. I'm I'm being really hosted here by Alvin and Sherry grigg Man. Alvin, I was trying to think we met. I actually I almost

know exactly how long ago. It was seven years ago because Fern, my plot coon hound, is eight years she'll be eight on November eleven. And she was about a year old, and she was a year and a half old. No, she was younger than that she was. She was he hadn't really even started in the woods yet. Really, you called me because I had some uh Steve Hurdge bloodline and bluff Creek and and actually actually the one we

had with Sherry's dog. But anyways, and Steve would give you my number, and I remember she was she hadn't really I mean, I just say she was x raight months old. You know you started fooling with her, but I don't think you'd actually been. I remember her first cone she had treated Remember tell me remember telling well, I want to come back to that. I'm gonna introduce everybody, but that's a big story and I want to tell it.

Alvin and Sherry, Grig Cherry say hi to everybody. Great Cherry, it's this is gonna be fun having you on here. So there to my right, directly to their left is big dirty Dave Gardner. Dave, good to see man, good to be here. This is your first time on the render, right, Yeah, first time caller, a longtime listener. Everybody here thinks Dave looks like Dale Brisbee, so got the big stash and pretty much. Yeah, so Dave, tell us what you do. I'm a photographer and camera guy. Yeah, me and Dave

have been we were counting today. We've been on five shoots together. So you know, shoots that like last over a week usually, so We've spent a lot of time like standing like uncomfortably those together in a tree, a tree together. Right. Uh, well, we're gonna get back to you. Dave to my left, Brian Ringles, also known as Rhino Man, you're the first official ferrier, real live fairier that we've had on the podcast, and I got some questions for you,

all right, I guess some answers. Good fairiers have a lot of answers. I found that it may not be fairiers that are passionate people, but the people that are around farriers and equine people. Man, they see you doing anything on a horse or mule hoof, you get a lot of opinions, don't you. Yes, sir, very money? So how long you've been chewing horses? I've been full time eight years in this coming February eight years? Is that

a good profession? Being? It's been good to me. I wish I would have started it when I was twenty and stead thirty or forty, but but yes, it's been real good to me. Yeah. Do you shoot Alvin's horses I have in the pass? Yes? Do you shoot your own horses? Alvin? No? I tried one time. I was gonna shoot my own and all I got was fronts. All I got was fronts. Yeah, as far as I made it. Well, we're gonna have to come back to the to the horse shoeing thing, all right, because I

got I got some questions, but I gotta finish. My introduction to your left is Brian Jumpy. Yep, Brian, tell us what you do. I'm the Coke County Sheriff, Cold County, Oklahoma. Yes, sir, you're the sheriff. Yes, we called in the law for this man called outlaw. Well we had to. We had to call him the law to talk about the outlaws. How long you've been sheriff over here? Uh? Ten years? I've been sheriff for ten years and uh been a law enforcement seventeen Okay, And so being a sheriff is

an elected position. Yes, so you gotta be a politician. I'm not too good of a politician, but good enough to win an election. You know this is like I'm a grown man and know this, but I've never really

heard anybody explain it. You have city police departments that govern have jurisdiction inside of cities, and then sheriff departments have jurisdictions inside of counties, and so they're taking care of rural issues and rural people that aren't don't have a specific assignment to a to a to a city. Is that right? Right? We also work the city too.

We have jurisdiction in the whole county. Okay. Is there anything that specific that a sheriff would do that just like a city police officer wouldn't do, like types of crimes or is it not? It's all but the same, just all about the same. What what would you say? You spend most of your time doing as sheriff, paperwork, office work, budget meetings. Really don't spend a lot of time on the street, no more so. You're managing people, managing the whole outfit. Is that? Is that good or bad?

Just got us good days and bad days, a lot of bad days on it. But you're you're either on top of the world on or on bottom. Yeah, snow in between. Yeah, it's either going really good or really bad. Alvin, how long have you known Brian? They call him Jumpy. I hesitated known him my entire life, and we've been great friends for probably ninety five six about. We've been a really close friends since then. But I've known him when I was a little baby kid, you know what

I mean? Yeah, how you were gonna? You were? You told me you you had a interesting entry point into law enforcement. How how did you get into it? Ask him A long story. I don't know if you've got time to hear all of it. Yeah, we do. But I never got a long good with law enforcement of my whole life. And when I was about thirty four years old, I had a buddy that was in law enforcement and he come knocking on my door one day.

No open a door, and seeing my buddy he's standing there in uniform, I thought, oh, that's this can't be good, you know, And I said, what are you doing here? Jerry? He tells me he said, well, we got a job opening down here and see police and thought you got the right temperament to make a good cop once you put your application in. So now, said Jerry, I don't even like cops. You said, I don't. I don't think I want to be one. He goes, well, just come out and ride with us a couple of weekends and

see if you like it. I got to riding with him on the weekends. I got to lacking it. I thought back in was all hog hunting a lot, so this is a whole lot like hog hunting. You go catch a bad guy, tie him up and throw him in a pin like like we catch a hog, tie up and throw the hog in a pin, keep him and then uh, I eventually got hired on. It took a while I get hired on't when I got hired on about a year later. That's thirty five as well, like RT. Yeah, and uh, I thought, man, that's gonna

be the best job ever. I'll be able to work evening shift in the after work on coon hunt all night. Hmm. Now coon hunt all night and I sleep biggest part a day and get up and go to work and catch bad guys and go coon hing again. It sounds like a good plan. It's a good plan. It didn't work out that good, though. If you had any guesses of why this sheriff is the first sheriff on the burgarys Render podcast, you've just heard why this man's a coon hunter hog hunter? It used to be a carry on. Well,

that's really about it. I got I got started, and when I got started good, I thought, well, I'm gonna be sheriff one day. Really, So that that was like a career ambition. You were like, I want to be the sheriff, and here I am. So what's it take to be a good chriff? Patience? You know, you gotta have good deputies, your deputies. This is what makes a good cheer. You ain't got good deputies, you don't have a good cheer, right, yeah, yeah, So you got to

manage your team, right. How many deputies do you have here in this county? I usually have about nine. I'm sure handed right now because I've had to get rid of some of them. Yeah, big Dave, you got any questions for for Brian? Any law enforcement questions? Actually we were talking about this earlier, Clay. Uh. Now, why if you were pull somebody over and you're looking at their license and registration, would you ask them to come and sit in the front seat of a car with him?

Depends on the person. If you look like a shady individual and I thought you or if I thought you was holding dope or been drinking and bat you back to the car. A lot of times to sit in the car with a sit in a car with me. They train you not to do that, but that's a good way to get him in a car. And go

talking to him. You can smell alcohol on them where, you know, get talking to him and my hasn't open the pocket, can talk him how the dope probably get a little more nervous sitting back there with you, don't you know. So tell him your story. And I mean basically me and had had the same story. Just had random like a totally normal traffic stop. Go ahead. Oh yeah,

I was just working a gig one night. I was filming filming a show and on the way out of there, I rolled through a stop sign and sure enough, there's a copyright there. And yeah, he asked me to come and sit in the front suite of his car while he was checking my license and registration insurance. And then he didn't even give you a ticket, didn't even give me a ticket, let me off with the warning. Yeah,

nice guy. It was the Mullet bill. It was now I had the same thing happened, and uh, I think I was in South Dakota and had a state trooper pulled me over the middle of the day. I was going just a few miles over the speed limit and he he was he was real nice and we've been hunting in Canada and he was he was like, hey, you were going a few miles over, no big deal, but we like to keep it, you know, right there on the limit. And gave him everything and he was like, hey,

come sitting in the car with me. And I was just like it kind of wigged me out. I was like, what are we doing here? Man? And anyway, he just and when I got the car, he just we talked about hunting for like twenty minutes in his car. Probably a fan. No, no, this was some years ago. This was years ago, years ago. But it's checking me out. He didn't just want to chat with me. He had suspicions.

I'll be done. What's what's the main thing going on around here that you guys are enforcing in terms of the law, Uh, drugs and stealing, just theft and drugs they go hand in hand. Really yeah, yeah, that Germaine crimes tround here Staffton drugs, theft and drugs. Well, that's that's really interesting. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on r T. I gotta tell you guys the story.

RT called me on the way here, like after dark, driving here and r T. You know, I mean, in our conversation, like we're it see we're just like buddies, you know, talking. But it surprised me to see his name come up on my on my on my phone and uh so I picked it up and he's he I should have known he was trying to get me. But he said, Clay, how you doing man? And he was real serious and I said, I'm doing good. He said, I got a problem. This is the first time he's

called me since the podcast came out. He said, I got a problem. And I said, oh man, that's not good. What what's going on? And he said, man, ever since that podcast came out, I've been getting threats. I've uh, I've already got one, two, three, four, I mean, and I just was thinking, oh no, I've got this guy in trouble. And uh he let me thank it for

a minute and then he was like, clut. You know, I made a living lying, right, And then he started laughing and he he had some guys in there that was he has a he has a he's an outfitter, and he had a bunch of guys hunting with him. But anyway, and outfit, now, yeah, he is, he sure is. I wouldn't trust him. He lies. Yep. Hey, y'all are all hog hunting buddies. And that's the reason I know Alvin is Uh is from hounds and Uh. I've said

this to Alvin before, but I'll say it again. I Alvin, what little I know about hounds, A lot of it came from talking to album. Now, we've never hound hunted together. Y'all have come up and squirrel hunted with me. We we've never I've never heard hunted with you. But that going back to our original conversation of when we met. I had called you about trying to get a plot and UH and you we talked on the phone for

basically the first two years of Ferns life. I was giving you the play by play what she was doing, and Uh, you were really good at articulating the hound world. The first first time we made you when you come to dog pain, well that's the first time I would have seen you get talking about these dogs. I mean, I'm gonna sit here and say, yeah, I told to you every thing. You know what, if you any questions you asked me, if I felt like I had to answer you know, I would try to do the best

I could do to answer you know what. I mean a lot of stuff you were saying, you know, might have been some of the first experiences you had. I mean, I know you came hunt before, but some of the stuff you were explaining to me, you know, I had seen before, and I was like, well, I think this is actually what's going on. You know, don't be too concerned about it or whatever. You know, it's just kind of general conversation that I have with anybody, or you'd

have with anybody if you knew. Yeah, and y'all do this. This is hog country, man. They're pretty much hogs all over this part of the world pretty much. Brian, tell me how Tell me about your schedule as a fairer, Like how many how many horses are you shooting every day? Oh? I try to keep it if I'm shooting something all the way around, you know, in the five or six a day range, and then if I'm trimming, I'll try to cut it off around twenty, you know, in the

fifteen to twenty. I keep most of my clients on a six weeks rotating schedule. Six weeks rotating schedule. You gotta have a tight schedule. I mean you you you gotta manage it to get people in there, and and and that seems like a the ferriers I've worked with, that's been a challenge for me to be to fit their schedule. It can be tough. You know, you got a joke. Life happens to everybody, So you gotta juggle

all of their schedules into yours, you know. I mean they have families, things come up, dr appointments, what have you. You know, so you're gonna gotta juggle all that. But it's it's doable. Yeah. Um so I trim just the front feet of my mule. Back feet typically stay pretty tight. Is that okay? That I don't ever trim our back feet? Yeah? You You normally won't have as much trouble with the back feet because the horse carries six sevent of their weight on the front end. Uh, the majority of your

problems come in the front. You know. I'm not saying you never need to trim the back, but it's generally doesn't The problems won't show up there as quickly. Yeah. Yeah, kind of like the front tires on your truck wearing out before the back tires. Yeah, you buy new tires. You put them on the front and put th old was on the back. That's just buy two at a time.

That's right. That's the way y'all do it here. Yeah, that's right, Alvin tell me and Sherry, Sherry, Never in my life have I heard Sherry grig not talk in like a span as long as we've heard that. So Sherry, I need to hear from you too. There's two things that you should never put on social media. Two things. One of them is anything that has to do with bee keeping. Okay, if you have a bee hive, keep it to yourself. No, no, I mean no, I don't know if they'll steal it. You will get more advice

than you know what to do. With passionate advice. Beekeepers are the most passionate people. They'll they'll stalk you, they'll want to come to your house, they'll private message you from like every angle possible to try to get you to tell you, you know, like this thing you're doing. They're passionate people. And then the other group is horse people. So I had a couple of videos just I mean, man, I had a farrier that was coming to my house.

He came probably four times and and just random times to put shoes on my mule when I was going out west. And he was a real nice guy, and he was just like Clay, you ought to be able to do this yourself, he said, I'll teach you how to do it. And so he just showed me how to trim her feet and how to put shoes on her a couple of times, and I just watched him and ask questions. So ever since then, I've done it myself and so I put randomly, we'll put a little

video up of me trimming. Is these feet right? And it's it's like the sky fell people people going wild. I need to show you that video. Tell me if I'm making a train wreck. Well, she still, she's still sam, She's still going, and you're doing something right. A little bit on social media you can push block and you've listen to crap. I hear you. So, Sherry, tell me about your dogs. What kind of dogs do you have? Plot hound in the Corky plot in a corky Tell

me tell me about your dogs. I love my dogs are awesome. What what's the bloodline like in your hog hunting with them? What? What tell me about them? A lot on our bloodline, aren't They were off across We got some dough. I got a female from Jerry Gas now, several years ago, she would have been about she's alive, she'd have been about ten probably. She's Jeep's mama and Jeep is uh fixing me eight, So yeah, she'd have

been about ten probably, if she's still alive. And pretty much everything I got, I mean, we can trace it back to her, you know, I mean yeah, and uh we pretty much bred her offspring, you know, to outside males, you know, and then bread them back to our dogs and some mom's family tree. Don't forecat awful good, but it's well, that's what I think works good. You're the name of your kennel. What's on the papers of all your plots is how do you pronounce that? That's the

name of this community right now. When it was Indian Territory, when uh it was in in territory, this was called Okeney. And when we share her first moved here, which moved here, I uh several years ago. There used to be a little school that was down there, and they moved it over to Clarita. And it's right down here to corner if you go straight north right here at our place.

The county road curves in that corner right there. Was considered opening there was a school there and it stood there for several years until a few years from me and sure I got married, they moved it over here to Clarita. It's it has since fall out and everything, but there's actually still a graveyard back in there. And he moved here. I'll love here since twelve. Surely you live right in this area just with my mom and

dad's place. And we lived next door and tell my mom dad passed away, got married, we bought the place that John's next to here. Okay, yeah, and I've lived here with her, Sherry for twenty years, but she's lived here like safe for five. Let's don't talk about that.

So hey, Alan described for me the the plothound world, like like these guys like Roy Clark, like a lot of people would have heard me talk about Roy Clark in East Tennessee that has Laurel Mountain plots and then but you have the same thing going here with you. What I'm saying is described described kind of like how how groups with these line bred people are. People want their their stuff, and their stuff's the best, and they

don't like to outsources. Well it's not so much the best, it's just that I mean there's so many when you're raising dogs, there's so many pups in a litter, you know, you obviously can't keep them all, and you want to know what they do and how they performed to kind of keep kind of quality control on your on your product. You know, what you're what you're producing, what the bloodline

is producing, you know, and everything. And you kind of get you get you small circles, some guys you can trust, you know, and and and uh and you just kind of share your dogs, you know, and that's just kind of way you do it. And it's on I mean, it's just a blueprint of what Row has done, you know, I'm just trying to do. I mean, he's as good as it gets, you know, far a drumcer, and he's a legend in the sport, you know, and and breeding and hunting and everything. And and you see how he's

done it. You know, he said it more than once on your podcast. He couldn't do it myself because it's just so many dogs, you know, and take so many people, you know, to keep it going. And and he's got him a small, tighten knit group and and there we're all working together, you know, and that's that's the only way you can do it. One guy can't feed sixty head, you know. And it takes literally takes nearly that many dogs to really get a good thing going, you know

what I mean. Yeah, And Brian Ringles and Jump, he's had some of my dogs, and then I've got some more friends around here. You know, it's had some And that's that's just the way I've tried hard. In Wisconsin. I got Wisconsin. You go up to Wisconsin hunting in different parts of the country, baron, baron hog Wisconsin in different places. They come down every year to our Wisconsin buddies. Yeah, hunting. Yeah, okay, why plot hounds sell me? Oh, don't get its started.

I wanted, I wanted. I wanted this dog a long time for he didn't He would get me one until he wanted one. Oh really, you want to plot hounds first? Really? Yea? Did come on? Tell me I didn't know out there staying in West Virginia and Hitt knew. Yeah, that's she wanted the one when I was was uh had card dogs and crossbred dogs. You know. She always like the plots bring on color, you know, And I did too, you know what I mean, did she just like it

because of the color. I just want on. I was raised, my brother hunted all my life and hounds all accounts, and I like it that I think the pretty. And we was staying out in West Virginia for a while and I got noticing one and more of them out there. Didn't have any idea about them. I just wanted one. And truth is, I mean, yes, that's pretty much how

it worked out. I mean I was out there, you know, and I met some hound hunters, didn't really hunt with anybody out there, and met some hound hunters around there, and plots were pretty popular out there, you know. And I got to send them around there and and got a few phone numbers some people, you know, and and she more or less talked man to it, you know. And and the first one I had is pretty good when it comes from Eugene Walker. It was a Pocahona's plot.

Liked her and got something from Curtis Walker, you know, you went and met him, and and then I just got started trying different bloodlines. And then I got really intrigued with how how each bloodline was like a breed all in itself, you know what I mean, just like you could take a like Curtis Walker's dogs were nothing like Eugenes, and they were still plots, you know, just they've just been bred different for yous. You heard to find it, you can tell Steve Heard dog just looking

at it, and it got interesting. It really got interesting to me. That's when I got into the kind of the breeding aspect of it. I kind of got interesting to me. But because how people could literally mold something to themselves, you know what I mean, It's like to fit the style exactly. Yeah, you could take you know, I mean, it just got interesting and I just got consumed with it, you know, and I just just all

worked out. Okay, Thank you, Sherry, because I was gonna say, Alvin is the one that really sold me on plots even after I had one, because I got a plot almost on accident. Steve Heard and U, um, the dog what was the dog's name? Gunner? Bear Path, Gunner bear Path, Gunner. First dog that we ever did a legendary barehound article in for bare Honting magazine completely coincidentally was about Steve Heard's dog, bear Path Gunner. I mean, just totally random, and I got to know Eve my kids were the

right age they needed a dog. We had gone years without having a dog, and they were just right for a dog. And uh so I ended up getting what I believe was a kind of a a dog that didn't make the cut for what Steve wanted, to be honest with you, because I told him, I said, I don't want a dog that hunt real hard. I want one to kind of be a pet in anyway, I get this dog from him, bring it home six months old. He tells me, all this dog is gonna do. And um, when it was eleven months old, it came in and

did really good for me. And but so I called Alvin. I was gonna try to get another plot, and Alvin was like, man, you don't need you. You pretty much told me you'd help me find a pup, but you didn't think your bloodline would coon hunt the way I wanted one. Is that about right? So you didn't try to sell me. We don't. We don't have I would give them too if I thought they would have worked for we don't. Mike, are cuts sold? They are? They don't.

They don't make it. Yeah, even think he takes pride in his dogs and not putting off a lot of crap. I mean I mean, how dogs that are bred for hog when there's stiffic specific traits and skill sets she's breed for for hogs? You know, you don't. That's got nothing to do with I mean, it's like I was saying, well, go, how these guys can shape these bloodlines to mask their dogs?

You know. Yeah, I mean a lot of my dogs on tree worth a flip, you know, And I knew that, you know, they got some tree bread into them almost with their plots. But I mean I haven't bred for that for years, and hadn't bread for cold drilling kinds of stuff, you know what. I'm just I knew the percentages would be so low it wasn't worth your time to mess with it, you know, so I didn't. But you taught me about the cult of the plot hound.

And and I mean, really, you're the one who sold me on these guys like Roy Clark and Eugene Walker, and I mean all these guys that were big plot men and kind of how neat that was meant a lot of interesting people, as would be a strong word, but but it's it's pretty close, pretty close. I call it tight circles, you know, And it's just no I'll go with a cult. And now they would believe that they weren't even good for hog dogs because the barking track,

but they come around. Yeah, people people thought that over the years. Now now, Jumpy, you probably don't like a Have you ever tried to plot for colin hunting? I have didn't work out? Did it? Now? It was one of my It happened just like I thought it would happen for you. But I'm a blue tick man. That's why he don't hurt with us. Yeah, what kind of what blood lone of blue ticks? Do you have? Echo? Echo? And that's a that's a line that kind of came

out of Southeast Oklahoma. Come from Lane, Yeah, Lane, Oklahoma. Yeah. What what are their strongest characteristics? Cold nose, move track, good good tree dogs. I think they're pretty too accurate tree dogs most of more. Yeah. Yeah, well I started with blue ticks when I first started coon hunting. But anyway, I've joined the cult now, so I gotta have I

gotta have plots out. A guy that I coon hunted a little bit with last year, he really wanted to go with me, he said, And when I got down to it, he said, Clay I've never seen a plot tree a coon now, I've always wanted to. He hunted a lot, He hunted with a lot of I was amazing. People didn't know what one was. We went when I had a signed bull. They were puppies and we took them to a lot of hog bands and people, what

are the plots? They never heard of them. They heard him after that little series of summer things though, because they went and one a lot of stuff they did. And then the next year I went in there. I'm kind of a big head, thinking I was gonna win everything, and they were growing dogs in they went caught like a bulldog was over Yeah, straight up, never made to sound his point caught. So that was the end of their baying days. Yeah, do you hunt a lot with album?

I used to anymore? Well, my knees hurt, okay, okay, okay. So now you got plots too, bro? Yeah? How many dogs you got? Oh, I'm I'll be feeding Tunior twil right now. I'll probably some coon dogs too, though, dogs coon dog. He's got a plethora of color out there my my dog yard. Right now. It looks like I rated the pound pretty much. I hear you. I hear you, Dave, you got any dogs? I got one dog. She's an

American classic. What does that even mean? She's I thought he was gonna say you sit to you or something like that, and I was gonna, yeah, I was just gonna say, like something something a little okay, so you got you do have a dog? I do? Yeah? Where's the dog go when you go on these trips? Man? Oh? She stays with a friend in Missoula. Okay, yeah, okay, Hey, did y'all know Dave reminded me of this today and he told me not to bring it up. David's from

New York. Do y'all know that yankee? Upstate New York? Yeah? Definitely from upstate New York. Is that's the bottom minute? Yeah, that's that's downstate? Or how you speaking of stuff they do up north that we don't get to do that here? Dave killed an elk last week. I did do that. You did kill it the Oklahoma Dave? Why don't you go sitt in a truck? Yeah? Sure, you just you killed alkan Oklahoma. We'll come back to you, Dave. Maybe

that's fine. When did you kill it out? It was like their third season wasn't it second or third, you know, they had they had got it. They started getting an established herd in certain little pockets of south eastern Oklahoma. And I guess it was I mean, I quote me any of this stuff, you know, but seven or eight, ten years ago they started having a season and we had the property we hunt, which is properly you're hunting now. And you've seen pictures of them they come to this

year on some cameras. But there was some something in there, and you know, when we started entertaining the ideal trying to kill one, you know, there was a quota. Where did they come from? Where did they turn? Yea, literally they got loose from a ranch. Wow. But now they're regulated by the state. Yeah, the whole state is cutting four quarters in Oklahoma. Yeah, so then like out west,

there's no quota. You know, places a cow elk out there in the quota was Yeah, she was the last one where he had to call her the morning, you know, make sure the quotas field. And we had some that was coming around some of our stand sites and come on the camera and on, and she just kept playing cat and mouse with him, you know, and I said, they're gonna feel the quota before you get to kill one, you know. And she called that evening and and uh,

she said it's still open. I'm going hunting, which man reas one hunting too. We were actually youth hunting, me and my daughter. It's the first day use season. And my daughter had actually killed a dough and then uh, we'd shot the dough. And then when we recovered the dough, when a few minutes my phone started ringing, you know. And when we're hunting, you know, getting the text mess is not nothing unusual when you start getting phone calls that she's good shooting a lot. At the end of

the day, you know, something's going on, you know. And I gotta I gott a cow, you know, and everything. I'm like, what'd you hit her? You know and everything? And she tells me all the stuff, and I'm gonna get oot for blood. So here we are tending to a dough, you know and everything. So I'll go walk through the truck, get the truck, drive down here with the doze. At by the time I get down here,

shere he's found the cow, you know. And she tells me, She's like, it's such and such you do one tells me how to drive right towards she's at and uh, She's like, how are we gonna get down here? I said. She gives me a hard time about this, And I've been around. I'm not at West guy, you know, but I have been. I turned seen the cow before, and I mean me and a couple of guys loaded it in the back of a truck. So I was like, man,

I can get it up in there, you know. She's like, what, I can get it up back of this truck from drive right there close to it, you know. So I'm driving around talking on the phone, you know, and uh, I still thinking I can get this hell in the truck. And I was dead wrong, and she's giving me a hard time. But I had And how man, I don't know. I couldn't flip it over. It was the lead cow. It was the biggest cow in the group. You know.

There was there was an immature bull in there, and she she was gonna shoot you to the bull or whatever. You know. It's just kind of whatever. You know. It wasn't once in a lifetime deal kill no, And she was after whatever, you know, But she got a chance to cut that big cow. And and it was the biggest on a group. I don't know five d n, I don't know. I don't know the big big me to put them back on a trup. Yeah. I just run my daughter's hunt and she said, you just head

to up me. Well, Dave, you killed a little scrawny bull up in Montana. Oh yeah, my first bull. So that was pretty stoked. Yeah. So you moved from New York to Montana like five or six years ago, almost eight now, eight years ago. Yeah, I'm pre COVID and prettyellowstone, so I feel like I'm in the clear, you know, there you go. Yeah, okay, So so people that moved there after COVID, it's like a certain type of people. Yeah, well the demographic has been changing. Yeah, yeah, okay for sure.

So um but yeah, I killed the bull last week, my first bull. Been chasing him with a bow for quite a few years and a rifle. But I spent like twenty days in archery this season, missed one and then third day with a rifle. How big was how big were the how big was the rack? He's a six by six. Yeah, he's not a giant, but a good I feel like a good Yeah you were how far from the truck when you killed it. Uh. I was pretty lucky that I was only like two and

a quarter miles because there was some points in archery scene. Yeah, there's some chery and I was pretty far out. Um, So I shot at like two o'clock, and then that evening I quartered it up. I was by myself, quartered it up, took out a front quarter and all the loose meat, and then the next day I went in with a sled. I was a little far away from home, so trying to call friends to come help me pack out.

It wasn't really it wasn't really working out. So the next morning I bought a sled, hiked in, put the other three quarters on a sled, and dragged it out. It wasn't too bad. You get to one in Pacalama's I seen it. Yeah, that's what he needs. I need to get a mule. I need to talk to Jump about buying one of the mules. We got. I got about tena over there. Yeah we didn't say that Jump is a muleman too. Hey, we were gonna talk about

our squirrel hunt. You and Alvin, Brian, Brian Ringels and Alvin came up and squirrel hunted with me in February. We were just gonna hunt pretty much one day, right, and y'all brought your horses and I had the mule, and we had an uneventful squirrel hunt in terms of killing squirrels. But we went to a big property and I had my two fights and and they hunted out in front of us while we rode down some just

basically old roads. And yeah, that that was. That's all I can remember is that I was riding to a tree and the dogs were treated, and I took a stick in the eye, which I mean isn't terribly uncommon. I just kind of thought I could just blank it out, and man, it just kept getting It. Probably happened that I don't know, ten o'clock in the morning. Yeah, I had already shot the only squirrel to be shot. And what happened, actually, I'll get this story for all the listeners.

What actually happened was the squirrels were starting to move pretty good and we were starting to get a lot more trees, and Clay new I was fixing to put on this squirrel shooting exhibition, and that's what happened. I don't I don't know if I've witnessed it. That way for sure or not, but maybe I was missing something. Uh, it was something like that. It was something like that. So you poked yourself. Now, where are you going to day? My chair just had a blowout. Oh wow, they've lost

a chair. This is what happens when you been sitting in the tree stand for a couple of days. Well, that's my new chill rocking chair. My friend get me, we gotta, we gotta. Yeah, just go over there and get that chair. Okay, when that kind of stuff happens to skinny people, makes you feel good a chair now. So I was, I was riding, riding to the squirrel tree, took a stick in the eye. Didn't think I mean, it hurt right away, but you know, probably a few minutes later, I was like, man, I took a stick

in the eye, cant already see on this eye? And man, rather than getting better, it just kept getting worse. Well, probably two hours later I couldn't hardly see how to either eye. And it was like probably one o'clock and these guys had driven hours to come up here and hunt for one day and I couldn't see. Alvin had to drive my truck driving me to the eye doctor. Why don't. Did you take me straight to the now? I took you home and Misty Head came to get you.

That's right. And anyway, I went to the eye doctor and I had scraped five layers off my cornea, which sounds worse than it than it is. They put a medicated contact lens over your eye and basically that's all they do, and it and it heals. But that's all. Who's year after the fabrication knew of the eyepatch that we did out there in the woods. For what we do. I forgot to cut a piece of a saddle blanket off or something I can't remember, and you tied it

around your head was something. It was pretty primitive. Yeah, killing it. No, I told Alvin this the other day. So I'm relatively new to the equine world. I mean I was an adult when I started riding quite a bit. And um, we were riding. So when I go with people that have been around, you know, have have been riding and doing stuff their whole lives. I'm paying attention, trying to learn something when I was When when we were riding, we we came to a rocky a real

steep rocky bluff and uh. And I didn't blame Alvin a bit. He stepped off as we rode through some pre ruugh stuff and when we came to the spot, it was brushy and about a probably a three and a half foot drop of slick rock. Real bad too, you know it potential sliding down and uh man, I I mean, I think any horse guy, mule guy would pride himself on not getting off, and so I would

be in that category. But when I saw you get off, I went and looked it over and was like, you know what, I think I'll get off too, which is pretty rare. It's pretty rough little spot. So me and you just let our you're a horse by mule down this little deal and coming up Brian's coming up behind us on his Mustang and and I just know he's about to get off, and he doesn't get off, and he does the man from Snowy River deal off the off of this thing and leans back and this back

was on the butt of that horse. And I was impressed. I was thoroughly impressed with that. That you didn't get off your horse. That was probably just pure de laziness on my part. You just didn't want to get off. Tell me about your horse. What kind of horse you got? He's a Mustang out of Arranging, Nevada as where he come out of what I'm here in a wild horse. The paperwork no, uh, I've got two of them, but

he was. The paperwork on him says he was a four year old when they gathered him off the range, and I've been using him since he was about ten. I bought him. I bought him already broke from some more guys that had actually been roping cabs on him and using him on a ranch. But he's made a nice hunting horse. And he's actually on his way back from New Mexico elk season right now, on the second gun season. Some boys borrowed him and took him out there.

What is there legitimate stuff about what those a Mustang would be better at than just regular horse that had

been bred and raised in captivity. I think so well, it's just got to do with the same as about he was talking about line breeding the dogs and stuff like that, you know, I mean, they're just the hybrid vigors there, and the survival of the fittest has been there from natural selection for so long as what makes them our gene pool, so much difference you know from the domestic course that we race here, you know, has been so they're actually selecting for characteristics of survival that

work for a horse on the range. Naturally that happened, you know, yes, to where we've selected for different performance aspects on the in the courter horse world or whatever the other you know, domestic course might be. So that's the difference. They're just naturally selected for brains, toughness. You know, they don't have feet problems. They don't have teeth problems. That stuff weeded itself out. You know. You can fix the colt's feet with the shoes, but you they're born

that away. If they don't have feet right feet, they die, right. I see what's say? Now? That brings up a good question, and we we're gonna get to talking about r T soon enough. Okay, people ask me this and I don't have a good answer. I like having good answers when people ask me stuff. Every today. Most modern horses have to be shod or they'll go lame. I mean, for the most part. Or is that it's true statement? Well, depending on their job, that can be a true statement. Yes,

you know, there's a couple of reasons. This is gonna be very broad, but there's a couple of reasons to shoot a horse, and it's you're gonna be either two for protection or some type of a dietary that they need to overcome a genetic issue, you know. And so yes, most performance horses today have to be shod and some wear another because they kind of let that part of the selection in the breeding be on the back burner for so long. So that's why a wild horse wouldn't

have to had shoes a thousand years ago. It was because he was selected for having good feet. Well, yes, that's true, you know, unless they had some type of job that they're wearing off more than they can grow back, you know. I mean even uh, I read a book just the other day. It said that there was some some of the Apache Indians even would cut a piece of skin off of the hip of their horse whenever they was riding one and he was about to give up on them and put that over their foot, you know.

So people have been a half horse actually off the same horse they were riding, you know. And but they didn't need to be shod for purposes like balance and pedietary and that kind of thing where you was correcting genetic issues. They just had to be shot because you were wearing more foot off the naked girl back. Yeah, you know in rough Rocky capturin you know. So it depends on their job cutting holder. Stud can get down on his belly and cut a cat like no other

and he's got a crooked foot. He's still getting bread and he's still passing him genetics on down their line. I see what you're saying. So if there's one that's real good at this other stuff, feet aren't that big a deal. You can fix the feet with a farrier, but not in the well. But not in the well. Right, Yeah, that's why me and Jumpy ride mules. Right, jump right up. I heard he has one that loves seems what your wife told me, Mad and Bailey, Yeah, that's what she

called it, all right, RTI Stewart's secret agent man. What'd you take? Alvin? What stood out to you? You know? Uh? When I first started listening to the the part about leading double lives, you know, and kind of missing with him his mind, you know, Yeah, that was something I never would have thought of. You know what. It's kind of like, Oh, I never would have thought of that, you know, and that really was probably about his interesting.

I mean, that was probably most interesting, don't get wrong. I mean I'm looking forward to episode two where he talks about some of the different you know jobs he was on you know, and and what what some of the things were that were happening that they put a stop too, and stuff like that. But from the first one, that was pretty much what was kind of something I never would have thought of, kind of kind of come

across pretty interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I want to know his wife, he was married, he was how she took it, because you can't tell me if he's leading a double life. He wasn't leading the hanging out with Buddy's partying and drinking. Well. He rt is very open about this stuff. It's in his book, So I feel like I can say this, and he even said it on the podcast. It just

didn't make the cut. But like he he lost his wife, he lost his marriage, uh during that time, and he he's really open about it about how he uh yeah, it did affect his marriage, and I felt I felt sorry for him, and he said, you know what, I didn't go to graduation and stuff. He he didn't get paid enough for that. Yeah, and they already say, you know he eve regretted, he wouldn't do that. You know

I wouldn't do it again. Yeah, did it strike y'all as and this is an honest question to any of you, did it strike y'all as unique that he was is open about that stuff as he was, I mean about like making mistakes, because I mean it seems to me like people well or or or just find a way to justify it or blame it on someone else. I mean, it's like we have all these mechanisms to deal with kind of the way we've maybe mess stuff up. And he was just like, yeah, pretty much. Is he not

worried about him because he wrecked people's lives? And I mean, I guess he's missing with hins, that's different, but you miss, really he'll don't like it. You know, they still could come get you twenty years later. They're not gonna forget. I just wanted to how if he that back was mine? Yeah, if he if he was ever worried about retaliation from people.

Some people are just more open than other people. I mean, some people will talk about things it's like it's nothing, and some people want that's about all your Felons album. He's perfect. He's perfect, but also too. I just had this thought when you were saying that, you know, I mean, this guy lived up a live of life for so many years. It may be a breath of fresh air for him to tell you everything you want to know about himself. Right, Yeah, it could be. I mean, would

you do it jumping? Ask that again? You do that? Going to cover and leave your daughter, grandkids? I wouldn't have made a good undercover do y'all? Do you all work with any undercover agents drug people people? Yes? So how would that work with you? With you? I mean, can you talk about that? I'm not probably not a whole lot. But when we have something going on, well we'll call some of them guys and have them come in and try to make some buys or something for us.

Kind of works a long same lines. What RT was done? What do you think Jumpy? Just overall? Well, I tell you a whole lot of things he talked about I can relate to, and uh, it's really intrigued with the psychology part of it. And uh, we'll first off, you know, he's got a pin full of blue ticks. I got a pinfull he was thirty five when he started law enforcement. That was thirty five when I started. So but the stress, you know, it's unbelievable what kind of stress UH police

officer goes through? And I just only imagined what he stress, this constant stress like that. Yeah, I thought it was so fascinating when that psychologist Dr. Matthew Sharps I was talking about how humans were designed to handle acute stress, which is acute means short term stress because of our hunter gatherer roots, but we don't have any mechanism deal

with chronic stress. I love that guy man I when we contacted him, he's from uh California State University, I think in Fresno, and I was I was very happy that he was pumped that we were a hunting related podcast like he. I wasn't so sure if he knew what he's getting into, but he was like, oh, yeah, he's studied quite a bit about UH. He had, he had a lot of knowledge. But I thought that was an insightful thing. I would have never thought about that. Even the way we're wired is built for UH, you

know kind of comes back from our background. What what anything else stand out to Yes, he got close to some of those guys, And uh, I relate the same way with some of the some of our inmates that we have, people that we were as of course, I was raised here in Cold County. It's a small county. Yeah, so I know most other people that were putting in jail, and I have work crew and a lot of times I'll get the guys out and walk down highway picking

up trash or mos cemetery. Well, you get kind of in about ninety percent of the guys once they get in jail and get sobered up, they're pretty good people, pretty decent people. You kind of get, uh, kind of get a relationship with them, you know, kind of become friends, and it's easy to get close to him, to them guys like that. Yeah, and uh, I just make it clear with them. You know, some of some of the ones we put in jail or deer hunters or coon hunters,

old hunters, and some of them just bad people. They're never gonna get any better. But when they get out, the ones will get close to they get out and they know they get out there and get the messing up again that you know they're not gonna get no break or going to right back to jail. Yeah, so you're saying the relationship maybe helps helps them stay straight in the future. Not very many. No, No, they all want to when they go to jail gets straight. We're

not doing this again. We're not coming back. Most of them is back within a few months, all right, back in the same crowd. If they don't change the company they run with and don't get a job to keep their hands busy, stay out of trouble, they end up right back in jail. Most of them do, not all of them, but most of them do. Yeah, they end up right back in jail. Most of them do. Not

all of them, but most of them do. M What would you think that a guy like RT, like his life would have really been in danger with wildlife criminals like he was dealing with. No, not around here, he wouldn't. Uh. I don't know how the laws are in Ohio. But in Oklahoma the wildlife laws are all misdemeanors. And how are you how are they in the Ohio I don't know, because we have the lazy act here. Of course, that's if you carought take a legal game a cross state line,

that's a failed me. But most just like somebody going out here poaching deer. That's a misdemeanor, you know, a fine. They rarely put somebody in jail. They do, but it's not real commonly. Yeah, you can leave you hunting license over, you know that. I wouldn't take a chance on it. He had a lifetime hunting license. Think he lose that? Um? I think I definitely there was some felonies given out to some of the guys that he was. He was after he almost have to be justified the time and

money spent putting into it. A spoiler for the next episode. Um. He he tells the story where he's with these guys and basically his undercover world means that he he cannot he can break the law, like he could actually go shoot a turkey if he felt like it was in the name of keeping his cover and was gonna help bust these guys like so, so, these undercover guys have some liberty to do the work that they need to do.

And in all his work, he only killed one illegal animal, which I thought was pretty incredible because he was on hundreds of illegal deer and turkey kills. He sounds like an awesome job party running on a shoot crap. I wouldn't want to come home either. Surery, you just exposed your deep motivations. Uh no, But he said the one thing that he couldn't do in his undercover position was

knowingly commit a felony. And one time he was with these guys and he's driving the poach coach and they go into a gas station and rob it and come back. He just he's out there pumping gas and has no knowledge of it, and he, uh, it's just a total spoiler. I'm gonna, I'm gonna it's just a cool story here and to tell it. But basically they come back out and they're like, let's go, golt golts go, and he's like,

what happened? What's going on? And they robbed the store and he turned on his video cameras so that the video would pick up that he didn't know about it. So he he was like, man, I had no idea you guys were gonna do that, and they were like, well, it just happened. We you know. He he wanted it because he would have gotten trouble, and turns out there's a lot of liability with being an undercover agent. He was constantly worried about him get himself getting in trouble.

But the other thing that happened spoiler alert to is that he he's with these guys one night and they're they're plotting to kill a guy that had turned them into the game warden. Like literally he is over hearing a conversation. Well, no, no, no, no, no, it wasn't it wasn't even that straightforward. He had somehow had his uh uh surveillance equipment on and he overheard the guys in the poach coach talking about how they were gonna kill such and such and such like had a plan,

but he didn't hear. He didn't hear in person. He goes back and listens to the tape. Here's them plot in this murder, but in Ohio. For a conversation to be recorded, at least one person in the conversation hasn't been aware of what's happened. No, so he calls his boss and he says, hey, we gotta sticky situation. These guys are gonna kill this guy and I know this, but I know this illegally, and and so what do we do? And basically the boss was like, we just

got to write it out. And anyway, they ended up not killing the guy, but just constantly finding himself in pretty wild situations. Yeah, and I mean they're rough folks. Man. I thought I said it early on in the podcast, and it was stuck with me, and I was like, man, he said that, and corrat me if I heard it wrong. But he said that every person he was investigating, at some point in time during the course of the the mission or whatever, they had questioned him about are you

proudly are you under cover? Every one of them? And I thought, I mean, the first thing I thought was, I mean, if if I think you're undercover, you're saying no, I'm not. It's not good enough for me. I don't understand months and him doing Sady Crepton. I guess maybe so I don't know, I thought, I mean, I can't believe. I can't believe no one figured out. I mean, I guess he's good, good, good What he did? You know? Yeah? I don't, I don't know. I mean, you think about it.

Every single situation he was the new guy, I mean, just because they didn't know him from childhood. I mean, like literally he was the new guy. And in every situation he was deep in with these guys and was going out and poaching with him big time. So, I mean, I I think sometimes it was joking. It would just be like, man, I bet R two is a game Warden, Dave, what do you think, man, you said he had some serious thoughts. Well, I have some thoughts. Yeah, I don't know.

It seemed I don't know to the extent of what he was catching people doing. But I mean, like he said, he got close to some of these guys and he's like he knew he was about to ruin their lives. And I don't know, it just seems it's like going undercover like that for that long. It seems really deceitful and for I imagine mostly these situations, these guys were doing crimes far beyond just like shooting some more you'd

have turkeys and do that, dear. But yeah, it just seemed a little it seems over intrusive, Yeah, a little little icky, almost almost wildlife violations. They're not I mean, they're not shooting the last rhino or you know, or yeah, let me say that. If you read the book, which the book is called Poachers Were My Prey, and it's a very well written book. Chip Growths, the guy that was on there he he wrote, he actually wrote the

book and it the book is very well written. It's like well done, and all of these anything ART was called on was pretty major. I mean, for instance, there's and I won't talk about this, Art doesn't talk about this, but one of the chapters was about poachers from West Virginia that were literally krding for years enormous amounts of deer, turkey, squirrels, any any kind of meat that they could get, taken

it to Cincinnati, Ohio to sell to restaurants. Really yeah, and so RT, yeah, so RT goes there and uh and he's like these guys are selling to these people and and uh they you know, he infiltrates and like it's like the super underground thing and basically they were putting it in stir fry for real, the whole whole

chapter about it. Like that's pretty serious, you know. And then and then the other guys, like when he got really the guy he talks about that he got so close to those guys in in In he he worked that case for like seventeen months. RT himself was on with one guy was on. He couldn't even remember how many turkeys before season. That guy poached. He said, oh, probably around he said, between forty and sixty. I don't know. I mean that's a lot of turkeys in one season

for one guy. I mean, that's pretty serious stuff. So that's why they're going to that extent. But yeah, they're not trying to catch a guy out here. That's you know, trying to sms limited squirrels. Yeah, I mean, trying to get the bigger guy and probably take down more people. But I don't understand how you can go along with forty two sixty turkey kills and just I mean, right at some point in time, this is what we're trying

to stop. Well, and he he talks about that and all that stuff is like very much on their minds, and what they were doing was, um, they had by the time he was going after one guy, and by the time he was done, they had twenty six people that were deeply involved in this that he had evidence on. And so like, you know, maybe they've got this guy, but they're still working on this guy, and the sting has to come down at one time, so they say, hey, man,

we need two more months. And during that two month time, he's got to maintain his cover and do his stuff, and he actually said that, he said, there came a point when we just had to say, oh, enough is enough for the people of Ohio. We gotta bring this down. So if you read his book, he's gonna explain all this. He explains it because I don't have to read it, because I just can't write my mind around all that.

For me, Yeah, it's pretty wild that I started talking about buying new vehicles and renting houses for time, and I started thinking, I mean, I would I started trying to imagine in my head actual like a analytical sheet you know, that showed how much money they spent and all the actual convictions they got, and started trying to just imagine what I mean, it's probably gonna break down to millions of dollars, you know, for I mean, obviously

several several convictions. But yeah, it's kind of mean. Natural resources gotta be protected. But at some point in time, you can't spend billions millions of taxpayers dollars, you know. But like you said, there's some pretty big cases, you know, don't wonder I wonder, I wonder how that money could have been spent towards. Like I started thinking about how many of these guys, we gotta fire to buy a bunch of public lan Well, I mean, those are legitimate questions,

I think. I mean, first of all, back in the nineties, I think they were on such shoestring budgets to actual money that they spent on these things was relatively small, you know. But I think wildlife enforcement over the years, it's almost like, uh, what do they say that there's there's some there's some if if if people know that that's going on and that they're seeing people go to jail and get felonies for stuff, kind of it's like

having an unhunted population of grizzlies in the West. They get super aggressive because there's no penalty for doing bad. When there's a penalty for doing bad, it kind of filters of the whole system. That's the way I think about undercover. Is that pretty close? Yeah, just because I mean, you know, if all I have to do is dodge got in a uniform, I mean maybe that's I mean, there's ways to do. Even even Russ Arthur the the the Forest Service agent who interviewed Louis Dell or try

which worked on Louisdell and Charlie Edwards. He the first thing he said to me, as he said, Clay, how hard is it for a a single poacher to evade one man that has to cover seven counties? You know? Basically he was like, it's not hard to get away with breaking the law and uh. And so anyway, the undercover thing, though, kind of filters out and it's like, holy holy smoked, better be watching ourselves. How bad did that bother him? Knowing he was putting these met in

jealful stuff that he was doing right along with them. Well, I think that's just part of the job. It's kind of like, you know, does the bull rider get upset when they get hurt? It's like they ride bulls. Yeah, I mean I don't think that's just part of the deal. You know, you would bother me that I would. I mean, you know, better than them to a sence, because you're

going along with it. Well, and that's kind of what I built up in the thing, is that, like it's it's an odd philosophical and ethical position to go and break the law. Yeah. Yeah, this this undercover agent deal being a deterrent, you know, like you're explaining, and that makes great sense. But I had a thought on that right there. You know what I mean, it's regionally, it's it basically blows your cover, you know what I'm saying. I mean, once a big bus happens in Southeast Ohio,

you're not making it. You don't infiltrate no more poaching rings in that area for a long long time. I mean, it's just big news. Everyone knows the undercover and they it comes out in the news stories. You knowing that how many years a had and and there's poaching ring? Is it probably like it probably just helped them, you know, I mean, which if you read the book and there's no way that you know in our podcast is going to give you all the details of this book, here's

the way it would go down. Is a lot of times they wouldn't Well, this doesn't directly answer your question. I see what you're saying, But as far as Art goes, he was able to work in the same general kind of Southeast Ohio for his whole career because a lot sometimes they didn't even know who the undercover guy was. Before social media is yeah, I don't think you get buy that now because you can reverse image search and

find you know, find anything. Yeah, there would be platform of social media available that people are looking at twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. Nowadays, it would be blown all over, you know, and it would be that they might not even know. They would just be like you remember that Bob Thomas Skot he was my neighbor for two years and he moved. He did he come out always not always. What I'm saying is they don't necessarily have to know who it is. They

just have to. They just have to know that. You gotta be careful. They're using undercover agents now and and therefore no one's even if no one not infiltrating, infiltrating that group of people, because they're aware. Now. The other thing I learned in this is that they're also what

they call I think they call winding informants. Is that phrase makes sense jumpy where basically where if you were if if you were a bad poacher and there was somebody close to you that got arrested, they could come to him and say, make a plea deal with him if they'll help catch this guy. So you could have a wedding informant, which means an informant that is working along with the undercovers. So it could be your best friend. But it's not a good life when everybody finds out

about it. No, it's not. It's a dangerous one. Yeah, there's a lot of it's there's a lot of and he goes through the law like in the book, kind of like how stuff legally works. And it is pretty interesting. But my question is good RT catch Louis Deal. I don't think so. Good question. I don't think so. Man, He's like the ghost coon. You ain't catch any Did

you listen to the together? Yeah? Yeah. I want to say when Louis Delle said, hey, are you're a private an investigator and he said no, I want to say, Louis Deal would have followed up. He would have done some more recon y'all y'all heard it on there when when RT like elephant in the in the room when I said I've heard of undercover agents that like live in the area and drive a couple hours and just kind of have and he said, oh, that's playing undercover.

That's playing you know. He didn't know that I had interviewed a guy and it was kind of I can't throw Russ under the button. That was just what they had available. He that's just the way they had to do it. They didn't have a big budget, he wasn't more trained for their tax dollars. Well, but I think if they had gone in and I think RT would have caught him. I think I think it sounds like r D's the goat comes to this undercovered stuff. RT. He he sounded like he was probably as good as

you could be at that job. Yeah, I think he's real deal. What was it? What was the timeline that he was he was doing this? What years um, late eighties through eighteen years past that? So like the mid you know, like two thousand six or four, question for you. So I wonder how much since the emergence social media they've had to they they haven't had to go undercover

as much and totally different. So Russ Arthur, the Sports Servants law enforcement guy that I interviewed, he called the Forest Service before he talked to me and just said, Hey, is it okay? If I talked to this guy and they were like sure, and and he said it was because the undercover world is so vastly different. Used to you could just show up and have an I D and say maybe searching Bob Thomas's social media for the last twenty years right now if you showed up. Yeah,

so it's different tactics. My question, if they took that many turkeys, how do you affect population in years after that? Because I know turkey uh density As a question thinking you like to follow up one? You know how it is that they were if you can kill forty turkeys and you're in a good turkey area number one, Um, so they had they had a robust population. How was it that, Well, you need to figure that out. I

don't know, you need looking at that. Yeah, well they they it's it's definitely you know the in the in the the ethical position is that for that is that game populations are owned by all the people. So that guy was taking more than this year, so he was taking game away from other people, you know, And so it sounds like they didn't have to men hunters back then. If you had that many turnkeys that were good area, they were in a good area. What do you think

about it? Mr? Ferrier? Well, a couple of things jumped out at me about the I just had never thought of before. But he it makes you think about your own psyche a little bit, you know. But he said that he caught every one of those people basically by stroking their ego, you know, putting them on a pedestal, he said. And so that'll tell you something about the human mind that wants to be bragg down. That's why I think he caught on social media now because they

can't resisce Pope posting it. Yeah, there Bay like spragg. That's why I was wondering if they've had less agents since social media because they can just scroll through Instagram

and find him now. Yeah. And another thing that was a little bit stood out to me was I never thought of this, but he said that he went into that job and done that for all those years and put up with all that stress and was very successful at it and was able to overcome all of the challenges of it, but he couldn't stand to go home and take care of his family. Is you know, he's he couldn't stand the stress of taking care of his kids or fixing the roof on the house, But he

can go undercover for years and handle that. He was living a good life undercover. That's pretty wild. Badly was getting some sort of rush out of it too, Yeah, you know, I mean it was it was it was like a I mean it may not be probably an affect everyone the same way, but undaudly he may may may don't say it, and he may don't even realize it, but he undatally was getting some sort of adrenaline rush. I mean, yeah, I'm not trying to say he's a bad guy, and if I'm just saying it was it

was probably like his feeling. Oh he he talks about it, and you know it's it's hard. I talked to him for almost four hours and y'all heard thirty minutes of it. You know, the podcast was an hour long, but you actually heard Artie talking for thirty minutes. So I mean, like he go he went into that. Oh he he was like absolute adrenaline rush. He said, constantly. He said, you walk into a new house with a guy and you don't know what's about to happen, and at any

second your cover could be blown. He said, it's just constant fight or flight. And he thrived on that. And I'm gonna say it was more of that then it was. I mean, I'm not trying to defend a gun nothing, but I mean it was probably more of that enjoying that enjoyed that adrenaline rush and it was actually, you know, not being neglected. You know. I mean he let on like he's intelecting his house and his family and everything.

You know, but it probably he was neglecting it. But he wasn't neglecting it because he was a bad guy. He was neglecting that because just rush and his adrenaline rush was drawing him back so so hard. You know. That's a mama. I can't see anything that would take you from your kids though I've made that. I mean Sherry first got married. I mean, this is is irresponsible. I remember quitting jobs to deer hunt. How stupid is that? You know what I'm saying. Yeah, I mean that's ridiculous.

I mean, it don't make me a bad person, you know. I mean, but but but some things, I mean, sometimes you let things draw you away from your responsibilities. You know, he can't leave un anymore I did hunting New Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't see leaving my kids for that long. That would break my heart. Yeah, there would be no adrenaline. That'd be almost like the drugs that say they can't get off of drugs for their kid's sake because they

liked it high too much. So I'm saying he is he is like addicted to the highf he can leave his kids a long almost sure. I was really glad to hear him say that. In the way he said it, I believed him. He said he said he has a really strong relationship with his kids. Now, I'd like to question his kids and see how how old were they, And I bet they've got some stories that he don't want to hear. As adults, they may understand it, but as little when they were a little bit, they didn't.

Oh yeah, yeah, And I think I think that's where it felt to me, like he's taking responsibility for that now. Yeah, and that's that's good. That takes a lot to say that I didn't looklected my kids, and I missed this, this and this, and he admits it wasn't worth it. Yeah. I caught myself all throughout that thinking, man, it'd be a pretty pretty cool job. Parts like, oh man, I

couldn't do that, you know. And it's just I was back and forth and I'm like, oh, it sounds like it, but you know, right down my alien and all of a sudden, I couldn't do that, you know. It's just so it's kind of one of them deals, you know what I mean. I'm sure things about it he didn't like, you know, throughout all that, but oh no, it's it sudered him to a tea and he's actually pretty day them good at it. Yeah, yeah. How long was he

in law enforcement before he retired? You know, he worked eighteen years undercover, but I think he was a couple of years as a uniform well I know for sure a couple of years as a uniformed officer before that. So about twenty years plus. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's a lot of stress. Twenty years would be a lot of stress. How long are you going on seventeen seventeen? Yeah, he deals with a lot of stress. I deal with a lot of stress. Everybody. Now, are you gonna Are you

gonna run for sheriff next election? We'll just see what happened talking about We'll just see what happens between now and the end. Do you need us to help you with your campaign on burgaries? Oh? Yeah, next year still a couple of years away. It'd be uh, it'd be a year and a half. Actually, with your credentials, you would be the only sheriff at this time in North America that I know that we could put the whole

Burgary's brand behind to get reelected. So the mules that you know, Brian, were you you had you had two great points there were with those? Do you everything else to say? Well? I just had a question in my mind. I wonder, you know, I'm not taking nothing away from the gap, but how good would you have been without those informants? You know, his whole career was shut up on the informant thing. You know, I know you gotta have him a good team. He had a good team

to do job. Yeah, you know, you know what those guys when you're with him, and this is just so that couldn't he talked about his boss and his all the people around him. Oh, he gave a lot of credit to other people. You know, he really did, you know. On the podcast, it's like I wanted to talk about how great he was, you know, but is that what you're saying? Just like he was around the team of people.

Well you have that and then you know the s and he could right, you know, if it wasn't for the if it wasn't for the scumbag that would throw his own mama in front of a train to get out of trouble. He might not could have got some of those convictions, but he also had a good, close knit team, like you're saying, on his side too, you know, no doubt about that. Yeah, but that just goes back

to me. I'm not trying to took my own horn, but I put a lot of stuck in honesty, you know, And whenever a guys stands up and says that it's pretty much all all propped up on a lie, then I'm I got my guard up, you know. But but I would be all four whatever tactics he had to use if he was out there catching somebody that was mistreating little kids or raping women or something like that. You know. So it's it's just, uh, I had a

little bit of a question they're about that. You felt like it was a little too much, kind of like Dave a little too much force for something. I don't think wen't wrap around anybody poaching like that, even Brian both I'm I'm mirror what they're thinking too. You know. It's a little it's a little extreme, but it's just like what shared just said is exactly is a great point. I can't wrap my mind around what bad something could be in a poaching world, you know, I mean I

don't know. I mean yeah, and I imagine too if they're I mean, if they're poaching that bad then' like they held upstations. I mean they're they're different. And you know, I came to him to talk about wildlife stuff. Almost everything involved drugs, and I mean they were getting and

they were getting, they were getting convictions for everything. Like he was law enforcement, so he could he could, Uh, he didn't have just jurisdiction over a guy killing a legal turkey, you know, if that guy is selling drugs or if this guy is doing you know what. And

that just blows my mind. How this guy got inside with these guys and talked his way out of drinking and drive and you know he couldn't wouldn't supposed to drink and drive, you know, and didn't need to drink drive, and and they're obviously probably doing drugs around him him not not doing any drugs. I mean, how do you fit in with these these scumbags? You know, they sit

on there like they had. He showed with big corns and stuff like that in Turkey fans and he got from the DN or I so bad want to give the biggest spoiler. He okay, I'm not gonna tell the whole thing. RT is on the stand that he's in court looking at these people all twenty six minus one of the guys that he is about to Ah, it's so complicated, it will give it all away. Basically, they asked him the the defense on drinking and drugs, and they straight up ask him, were you ever drunk with

this man? And are It's so good to hear rttail. I can't tell it, but he told them the truth and then he said, have you ever done drugs with this man? RT tells the truth? Anyway, it was incredible the way the way he did it, and I'll tell you afterwards. I gotta leave it as a as a shocker for everybody else that's in the next episode. But he he navigated through all kind of wild stuff, all kind of would have been a wild life. It's pretty interesting. Yeah, that's what I said. I mean, it'd be a lot

of fun. Well, hey, we've been uh, we've been going on a while here. Closing thoughts, Hey you okay, there is a set of shed antlers right over there. How big are those horns? Alvin? There? I don't know is it a twenty five point buck? I mean counted on a buddy of mine scored them, but I don't. I've never even counted on giants, said a non typical antlers that were found over here somewhere, And tell me, tell me what the guy said that you showed those two

while you were working. My brother, my brother in law, found the first match set at the ranch house. Brought him over to us, and I was like, whoa you know, I mean, I know, but quite a bit about deer horns, and that's like them are not normal, you know. And they were like a hundred and seventy inches, you know. And the next year he finds a single one and then never did find the other one. Ther right behind the ranch house, like coming up behind the ranch house.

He's finding when he's feeding. He's not looking for sheds, you know. It just and anyways, the next year he finds this final set and uh, he brings him over to the house and we got all of the minute, get mall to us. He's not a deer hunter nothing, he won't hunter. Anyways, I had him and they're they're magnificent set of horns, you know, carrying them around you know, everyoneren't showing different people, you know, and and uh the guy worked with and uh a lot of comments about him,

you know, different comments. Boy A like to kill that one and all this. You know, where are you working. You're working on pipeline. We're doing the pipeline job, but with tongue. And this guy was from this guy I'm actually Arkansas. He's an Arkansas anyway, Arkinson anyway. He was a dozer operator. And I knew he was crazy fanatic deer hunter, you know, and and I, hey, check he's out,

you know. When he comes over and he gets his hands on him, you know, and he just kind of don't say nothing for a few minutes, you know, and he's looking at him and he's turning them this way and turning them that way, and and I'm kind of waiting for him to say something, you know, because it's kind of moment sound moment pause here, you know, and he he just looks me straight in the eye and he says, I'd go to jail to kill his deer

right here, or he said I would. He's he's exact what was, I would go to jail trying to kill his deer. And I fell over I busted out laughing, and he didn't crack a smile. He was not joking and go to jail over a deer, man, I can't wait. I can't wait for Mark Kenyon one day to hand me instead of horns. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do just what Alvin's buddy. I'm gonna look at jail trying to have a hard time, not cracking small.

I don't think anybody it was a pretty good hideout deal because the guy that lives right behind the ranch house never would he denied it. I confronted him. I was like, how you got pictures that in here? No, what are you talking about? I want Boston Goods. And then after the deer didn't show up for a couple of years and the horns didn't show up for a couple of years, and to our knowledge, he finally admitted to it. And I actually seen daylight pictures of the deer.

He showed me daylight pictures of deer, and he actually, you know, admitted to it. Obviously show me, but uh, no one else. I never talk talk to anyone else in that area that ever had pictures of that deer, but he did, he had and he did for several years. He didn't tell nobody. Yeah, I couldn't do that. Brian and Ryan on both No him, I tell you who It wasn't good off here. But yeah, I don't think any because I think if somebody killed him, we had

heard about it. I mean yeah, because the process and plans right down the road to and he knew about him. He's seen all the ships and boys. I'd go to jail trying to kill it this week man in Dirty Dave have been trying to kill We'd kill one a lot smaller one from the camera. Well, hey, it's been fun having all you guys on Jumpy. You're you're a big Burgheries man the Most Bargeries podcast several times over. Yeah,

probably your biggest fan. He needs autographs. Hat my hat, he got me hat you on my hat right on. I appreciate it. I do. I appreciate it. Um, she's got my hat on. I was sing it got the Burgheries hat. Crazing thoughts. Anybody is your last chance? The same thing about RTI Stewart. If I don't sure, I don't listen as as much as to the stuff that when I flipped through your podcast real or if it looks interesting, I'll listen. I'm not a faithful listener, but

I'm really looking forward to this next one. I really him. I kind of want to hear the rest of this stuff. Yeah yeah, yeah, big dirty Dave. I'm excited to hear more. Yeah yeah. And I'm crossing my fingers. Do you have we get a buck even close to that size walking from I'd kill a buck with just the amount of inches off of one side of absolutely no news, Yankee. You're wearing crocs. Oh, Dave's got crocs. Way to go, Dave, crocks and socks the first on the boat. Well, thank

you guys so much. Been a pleasure. And uh yeah, this is a this is the first podcast we've done in southeast Oklahoma. So come around. The campfire's good. That's good.