Ep. 276: Render - Bear Dens, Grapevines, Selling Squirrel Dogs

My name is Clay Nukeleman.

This is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f h F Gear, American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the place as we explore. All Right, I have I have three major things I'd like to do before we talk about Ostiola. It was the final Osceola Render,

Ossiola's life and legacy.

You need to get like silver plating on everything because that he had over every silver What are those called gorgets?

Gorgets? Yeah, I didn't really even know what they were. So we're gonna end up talking about Ostiola. But I've got three like very important things to talk about I have. First, we'll start with a story. Then there's a sales question that I'd like to present to the team. Sure, and uh, but but first let me say or I want to tell you a story. And I'm just dying to tell it.

It was a place that I bear hunt. But that have you had that happen to me?

Before it happened, I tell you, And watching football on a Saturday, interested in the games, and I just kept thinking, I know those deer are in one particular place where I hunt. And finally I just got up and went down there, climbed in the tree, killed a deer, put it in the truck, came home.

It was a long way the football game, yeah, back in thirty minutes.

I really, I think the older you get, the more you recognize what is maybe just like a fleeting idea versus something you really need to pay attention to. And man, so I went down here, but specifically it wasn't as much well it was as much the location as it was the way I was going to get in there, which will play into this story. Cash, have I introduced my guests? You haven't yeh, Misty Newcombe, so great to have you.

Good to be here.

Yes, my beloved neighbor and friend and the best pastured poultry grower.

That thanksgiving me to phenomenal Yes.

Very good.

So Spences here, who has been a featured guest on the Burgers podcast before on a soil podcast.

I believe that all of us have minus one.

Me and Spencer, both environmental, soil and science majors from the first of Arkansas. Yeah, I call it an inch deep and a mile wide.

But straight.

Okay, One time Spence and Clay and our other neighbor were digging a hole in our ground too. We were cooking a hog under the ground and they were they were digging the hole in the ground. This is a funny three but y'all being in the same major and.

Not to lose the audience, but we're actually in the middle of the bear story.

Go ahead, okay, well, this is a good story. Just while we're internucing with people. You're we're roasting a pig in the ground, and you two and our other neighbors were all digging this hole, and Spin said something did the effect of man, those crop, soil, environmental water science degrees, It's sure are coming in handy right now, because y'all

It's funny.

It was funny, fun good throwback introductions in the middle of the Bear story. Josh Bridge Spilmmaker, to see you, Bear, John Nuclear, Great to see.

You, Gary Believer, Nukelem the Legend, Great to see you.

November twenty ninth, Clay got a hankering to go, ankoring.

To go, but it was it was a way to get into the stot. Usually I stay up high on the ridges to get in there. I wanted to stay low in the in the in the hollers, you know, I wanted to stay. I just it didn't make sense, but that's what I wanted to do. And when you go into places like that, you never know what you're gonna get into it could just be a terrible, like disastrous hike. I got to where I park at four PM,

Day of the Arkansas bear season.

And I'm I'm side hilling low in this drawl, and like twenty minutes before dark, I'm on a super steep part of the hill and I see a huge pile of freshly excavated dirt, like.

So big that I immediately knew.

CO had been in there.

They putting in a water line to a subdivision.

No they I knew. I knew it was a bear.

And I saw like how big was this pilot?

It was like.

A truck hood and a half and it was on a steep hillside.

And it's bear season.

It's illegal to kill a denned bear, so I wasn't like going to walk up and.

Shoot a bear if it was in there.

But I really wanted to see if one was in there, and uh and I So anyway, I walked down there, and I mean it was a nerve wracking moment because it just kind of crept up there and had my coon light with me, and I didn't initially pull it out, but just peeked into that bear den, half expecting a bear to shoot out of there or growl or something. I've been on a lot of bear den studies and I knew that you could actually walk up to a bear den and a bear sometimes.

Won't even do anything. Sometimes they'll just stay in there and kind.

Of eyeball you. And anyway, I get up there, and sure enough it's a bear den. It's a hole about about as big as a fifty five gallon drum, kind of an oval egg shaped right in.

This little widen out inside.

Inside it widened out both directions about probably I think a six foot man could have laid down sideways in the hole.

Oh my gosh, you know, maybe how far end did it go?

Probably like further than I could reach with my arm, but probably like three and a half.

Feet three feet.

I mean, it was a big tressive yeah, and there's no bear there. Well, I've got my camping stuff, you know.

So I go up on the heap in there.

Yet I go up on the hill and walk like a quarter mile away and spend the night. And again it's I feel like, I'm not going to shoot a bear in the den. This bear's not den, he's still roaming around. He's just dug his den. But I knew that that bear was close. I really felt like that bear was within three hundred yards of that den. I came in there in the morning at daylight. The wind was blowing up the valley or up the hill all day.

It was.

I didn't really understand the thermals on it. I think it was just a prevailing wind. But it blew in my face all day, blowing my scent straight up the mountain. And I crept within forty five yards of that den and just sat there, set there all day, set there from basically seven am until.

Four oh six. I decided it gets dark.

I five thirty decided to walk out of there, went over there and hung a camera, a multi truck camera just like that right there, and hung it up in a tree.

Bear so that I knew. I almost brought a bear box.

Most of my cameras this year have been slapped by bears, even in bear boxes, and they slide around. And so I've spent a ton of time going into real backwoods places putting up cameras, and within within both of them within twenty four hours, a bear moved the camera, pointing in an irrelevant direction. So here I am, and I'm trying to figure out how I'm gonna use this unbear boxed camera and not the bear not tear it up.

And he was.

It was a color phase bear, it was. And when he came in, he was trailing me like a hound. I mean, he was just tracing every step I made. I was really surprised he came in after what I smelled. You know, Oh, let's tell him what bear I texted you that night I had good sale coverage in there, and I texted you and I said, bear, I found a bear den.

Yeah, you said, well, I asked if you were going to sit there the next day, and you said you couldn't tell me because the bear might hear you. Yeah, And I was, you know, two hours away, and we were so there's phone.

So not only could hear him that he can intercept text messages.

Location.

Yeah. I first learned about this, oh no, from the co Yukon people in Alaska who there. They have very many bear hunting taboos, and one of them is to vocalize your plans about bear hunting because the bear will hear you. So so if we were going bear hunting dad tomorrow, I would go, hey, Dad, I'd say we ought to walk around you know, Miller Mountain tomorrow and just see what we could find. Or or if we knew right where a bear was, we wouldn't directly address that we were going bear hunting.

It would be much more cryptic.

And I'm not saying I believe that, but you still that it's worth a shot.

I'm going to start when when coons are hauling my layers out, I'm going to start taking that tactic footholds.

Yeah, just don't ask me.

Don't ask, don't tell.

That's something different.

But that's our bear hunting philosophy. Now, it's like, if you want to go, just come on. Let's we just can't discuss it. I mean, I'm doing all this a lot of research on bears and I'm serious.

I'm like, I'm like kind of paranoid about it.

So anyway, it was a really uniqu and I've never found an active bear den other than going on den studies with game and fish where they have collared bears and they know where they're at.

But it was really cool.

But here's perhaps the most interesting part of the story, Miss Nukem, is I had to drive on a small road to get back into where I parked and open road, and I came out of there in the dark, and I drove thirty five miles on a major highway in Arkansas and pulled into a Harp's grocery store to get some food before I drove on home.

And I want to show you what was.

Well when I when I get to when I get to the grocery store, I have no less than a forty foot fine hanging.

Off at the back of my marching feet, Dad, did we measures it?

Measured it?

I want to show it to you.

Are we talking great? Talking green Brier Wi? Are we talking poison ivy?

Is this?

Yeah? Have we made sure Gary? This is poison not poison ivy? Hold that camera when he comes in, boy, musket as could be. Are you kidding me? Great? Good night?

Son?

Holy, that's a wild great yeah.

Hold on, put your headphones on. Guy.

So when I when I got to Harp's Misty, that vine, which you know is as big as my thumb down on the end right there. Look that grape vine was hanging off of my truck and I was stretched out or was it stretched out in a straight line, hanging off of the back of my bumper?

And clay, there's red paint all over there.

And I was driving fast and I passed multiple people on a two lane highway with that right there. So I don't really know what to make of it. But well, there's the squirrel dogs.

You might be a redneck. You might be ready.

If you did you keep it?

Did you pass people?

Yeah?

Yeah, I passed people. No one I had got no I mean maybe nobody could one.

Whipping people?

Yeah, like a jellyfish with the Corolla stuck in it.

Probably that's the thing.

I was on a work trip recently in the Pacific Northwest and we got a rental car and someone didn't latch the trunk very well when we put all of our bags in the trunk. As we pulled out, I went probably within about ten feet of pulling out of the rental car place onto the main Yeah, the airport main road. Are the trunk flies open and we couldn't stop. So we waited like a quarter of a mile to stop because that was the first pull off in that quarter of a mile. People were honking. We had very

I mean it was it was dark, and uh, I don't think. I think maybe fast.

People couldn't catch up with you.

Doing damage to their cars.

Yeah, I would have honked.

Yeah, you get some like Instagram messages and people.

Like somebody will send me a video of me driving down the road.

It could be on Channel five news.

All Right, I gotta get this out here, so that was kind of the epilogue of the bear story. The good news is, I've got a camera on that bear den. I'm really interested to see what happens that. So the bear that came in right after I was there, like within an hour, and I'm gonna I'm gonna post those videos on my Instagram. He he trailed me like a hound and then and then spooked. I mean when he ran off, he was like he was just he was

Did it go in?

I couldn't tell, like the the you know in the video, No, but the bear would have been longer there. You know, the video didn't didn't just capture.

The whole thing.

But but that bear smelled me twenty four hours later, trailing me like a hound. It was just like super spooky. And when it left it like, you know, like a scalded dog. Just kind of like that they are. I'm telling you that's the reason I don't even text my bear hunting plans. I I've got another story like that this year. You know, every every time I put up a camera, bears knocked it off. I went into this saddle,

Really yeah, they're they're they know that you're watching them. They are on to you.

Now you post you post this stuff on Instagram though, right, like the bear den and all that.

Yeah, but you won't text it or tell anybody.

Well, it's mainly hunting plans and and I'm not. I'm not, I'm no longer hunting.

There might be a little incregruity there.

True, Well, I'm no longer hunting the okay, you know, I mean the season's over. Okay, So I have before me. I've got a banker, I've got a young entrepreneur. I've got an old entreprene to her.

Former failed We were thinking we weren't going to say, I've got a successful entrepreneur and another successful entrepreneur.

Wow, pet owner and a pet owner. I've got I've got a question needs some serious input.

So we have.

We have three fists right now, and and the best one, like by far, is that the whole.

Family agree that she's by far the best.

Oh, it's squirrel hunting.

Yeah, well we don't know yet because those ages went with her and was you know, Okay, if you ask me the family front.

Well, I have strong opinions about the qualities of our world.

I mean.

At the moment, yeah, like right in the future.

Yeah.

Yeah, we're not talking about potential okay, okay, yeah, we're talking about like today and anyway, tests beautiful dog, brindle backed, whitefooted, flashy feist. She's five years old and Bear is raising up right now, a young feist that's like eight and a half months old that's doing really good.

And Tess is like Tesso.

I would say this amongst the company of people that I'm around, who Michael Lanear is my Jedi master squirrel mentor right, And I mean Michael l Near just knows what he's talking about. Okay, I would say this to Michael. There's a fair chance Michael will hear this when I take Tess hunting. And I'm not a squirrel squirrelog expert. I'm not, but I've hunted with quite a few people and I don't. Tess is rarely outdone by another dog, Like when you hunt all day, when you're like, well,

Pleasure to hunt.

It's a lot of hype. Is this leading somewhere?

I think we should sell her, Oh, because she's good, because we got this young dog dad that we're gonna want to start hunting, and it's kind of counterproductive to hunt. It may not seem like it, but when you got your good dog and you got a young dog, that good dog can sometimes just like smother out the young dog. It'd be better probably just just to hunt this young dog. And I don't want Tess and the prime of her

For two fifty I'd sell her yeah, or fifty fifty dollars.

We bought her for more than that.

I'm kidding.

If she's as good as you're saying, I mean, she's worth a lot of money.

Yeah, where are you thinking price wise? Well, minimum bid? Where would the minimum bid start? Oh?

Wow, this we can't do this yet, can't Okay, maybe later.

We have even decided we can't do this yet, but let me it works.

She's right outside here, so she could hear.

She could hear.

I can hear when you talk about him, though it's not like a beang what coon dogs can.

Because you said you wouldn't say something in front of Jedi.

I wouldn't say that he wasn't good to his face. Yeah, to his face.

But test might hear us and well, but but see, tests might even do better with somebody else.

Because she's gonna getlised. It's a complicated system.

Do you think we should sell the dog? Me and your joint owners in this dog?

Essentially undecided because she is a really good dog. But O Sage is looking very promising, and it would be you know, disappointing just for her to sit in the pen during her prime, just because you know we're only hunting.

O Sage. I'm undecided. I need to think on it. Okay a little more, Josh out of here, Feller Seller.

Yep. So she's a tool. She's a machine.

She is. She is not much of a pet. She's actually a terrible.

She's so driven.

She's These other dogs run loose and we treat them like pets.

They come in our house and.

Hey, listen, we've had dogs. We've had dogs for years. We've got two dogs right now that are like part of the family. We had a dog for ten years before that, a German shepherd that we bought for a pet. But he was so driven just to chase and play fetch that he wasn't a fun like yeah, gus, Yeah, it wasn't a good.

Pet a pet with but is so driven.

Yeah. So, I mean he would have been great as a shepherd. You know, he he knew his his call. So, I mean, Tess knows what she's doing. But she's she's a tool. She's a hunting tool.

Spence, I mean redundancy, Well, this other one isn't a sure thing, right.

It's true, true, So, I mean in the hand, it's.

Just like having two Baylors. One goes down, you got another one back.

Baylor.

Yeah, I wonder why you can't hunt.

You could hunt two dogs together bird dogs, sure, I mean you like two good bird dogs after.

Here, Yeah, oh, you absolutely could hunt both of them. But a squirrel hunting, it's kind of a limiting factor of how many trees you can go to in an afternoon, like bear hunted tests and osage the other day.

And I mean we were always going to a tree, sometimes even two trees at the same time, and it would take us too long to get there, and the squirrels would be in a whole or something.

Yeah. Yeah, So it's just I don't know, it's just better to hunt like one dog.

Yeah, could you guys not split up and double your squirrel efficiency?

Well, social event, but that's why you know you're kind of there to have fun together, Misty.

Well, so I have I'm very involved in the squirrel dog Yeah, the squirrel dog system here at the New co and Farm, and we have three and I have a ranking scale for them. But there's sociability and then there's squirrel You know, productivity, How good are you at squirrel hunting? And I think that these are two scales that have an inverse relationship. So the better you are at squirrel hunting, the less social. So let's let's start with everyone's favorite squirrel dog except for Clay, Tim Tim

He's on pitch. I mean, it's beautiful melody. Yeah, better than me.

It's almost as if this was what he was born to do. When you get the harmonica out, he gets excited and he gets his heart and soul in it. I mean he doesn't, he doesn't. He doesn't even pretend like this is not the most important thing.

That assumes that a dog has a soul.

Okay, So moving right along Tim. Bear taught Tim to respond to a toaster oven when in twenty twenty, when we were all home, Bear decide.

He saw how easy straight you put it in.

Off.

So Bear realized that Tim just was interested in doing whatever we wanted to do. And so Bear said, hey, y'all, whenever I'm going to start toasting these waffles, and whenever I toast them, everyone when it pops up, everyone make a big deal. Let's see if we can get Tim.

To do so it's a bright spot during the panel.

It was this is what we did, and we're all quarty together. And so Tim would see us react and he would just bark, and he would get excited and he'd go sit there and we would all celebrate them and talk about what a good dog he was. The other day, I put a piece of toast in the in the toaster, and I'm home by myself, and I'm working downstairs, and it goes off, and I don't think anything about it except that Tim is upstairs, and when

So Tim, so she would sell tests.

Tim cannot be given away test. She is a good dog. She really is a good but and she's not obnoxious, like she'll stop barking when you ask her to when place it's hush, she'll stop. She's really obed that probably like gives tests Like that's that's too confusing for her. She's a good dog, but she just doesn't you know, she comes in the house and she wants in your trash. She you you bring a cat home, and she trees it. You know, like she just she is interesting. Yeah, she's

So she always sell tests.

I don't like this question. I don't want to.

I don't.

I don't know. That was a long monologue to like take some neutral position.

Well, I mean she's a good girl.

You know, chicken, she got your broilers, she got your meat birds, she got your layers. And then the then people try to always sell you on these dual purposes and it never works out. So like hearing now that you got kind of a dual purpose. And they're pretty and they're nice and they're fun, but what's going to put squirrels in the pots?

I would I'd lean hard now.

On keeping her, on keeping her, Yeah, keeping her?

Wow?

Wow, you know the price just went up.

A double minded squirrell dog is unstable and.

A single minded he's not getting squirrell.

Well, I'm considering selling the dog.

That's all, so appreciate it.

So our opinion meant nothing?

Well it did it?

Did?

I mean, I'm just I'm thinking about it.

So do we have a price now? Well?

I want to bring in some inside family business that I probably shouldn't err on the podcast. I think this tendency when you have something really good that you know is super valuable to want to sell it, well, I think it has intergenerational.

That's happened zero times in my life.

All Right, No, Tess is worth right now, she's she's she's worth something, and soon she won't be. I mean, like, people probably aren't going to pay much for a seven year old dog that just doesn't have a lot of hunting time left.

But so you know, she's's kind of at that. She's definitely older.

I mean like if you were if you were wanting to buy a dog, you'd be hoping to buy two three year old dogs.

So she's five and that's that's the thing.

And your tax return, she's depreciated.

Yep, yep, great, dad, You just bought a Bronco I did.

Twenty twenty four, twenty twenty four.

Tell us about it. Well, it's just a you know, it's a it's a.

Club. Did you have one of the old Broncos?

Noweep I ran with. We were jeeping guys.

And if you came and tried to ride with us and you you didn't have a jeep, we would just kind of giggle under our breath, except when a Bronco pulled up.

Now they could run with the jeeps.

But if you had I'm not gonna mention the brands, But when you came with something other than a jeep Ford Taurus, yeah, you know, you just really good off road rigs.

People we see them all the time, but they just wouldn't run away. We were running. But the Broncos good. And this is this is a city boy rig.

You know, I got my golf clubs in there, and I'm not gonna take it off road. It's got a plastic bumper in the plastic front. But if you just cruise roads and climb hill, I mean, you know, it's it's pretty capable.

Man.

It's it's locked front and back. Yeah, it's got all the off road stuff on it. It's it's got what's called the sasquash package, so it you know, it sets up high thirty five inch tires or got thirty five in right at thirty five?

Has it got a a what I call a vine catcher bumper like.

White light and no, no, it passes.

We'll have to get you one of those. Yeah. Can it make it up my driveway?

I doubt it.

That's pretty cool. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Uh Josh, let's let's let's let's do our osilo quiz.

Okay, let's Gary, can you grab those? We got our marker boards here. Okay, we're gonna pass them out.

We all know he's probably gonna win this one.

Everybody, everybody study up the cards we got I don't need we gotta.

All right, So this is this is our fourth episode on Ostola and the title was exhuoming Osiola's Grave and uh, just a just a little backstory on the on the sequence. So the first episode was about Oola's childhood, which was really interesting and talked a lot about the Seminoles. The second episode was the war years of Ossiola's life when he fought in the Seminole wars. Fascinating. The third episode

Negative, no way, nothing, no way zero.

The lady you had on there was like incredible.

She's incredible, she is. And I talked to her this week. I called her.

She hadn't heard any of the episodes. She didn't know, you know, she she wasn't up on podcasts.

You know.

She's like, well, how where do you watch it?

You know?

And uh, and she she.

Was like, you know, after you left the other day, I thought of so many things that we missed, you know, that we could have talked.

About that you didn't cover in the five hours. Yeah, yeah.

Oh and and and I was, Yeah, I was.

It was one of the longest and best interviews I've ever done on Bear Grease with someone just passionate and knowledge. I just went on and on about how good she was.

So, yeah, we're.

Gonna okay, here, we're gonna do a quiz. Here we go, So write down your answer, Spence.

Okay, So we're gonna start here. We've got one, two, three, four, seven questions Okay, yep, and some of them are are not just based on fact, their conceptual questions. So prepare short answer. Okay, This first one, according to Seminole tradition, warriors buried facing east because this when the sun comes up. What does he use to transition to walk into the afterlife? Wow?

Good question, Josh.

Anybody remember that one? It was in the very opening section doctor Workman.

Talking about.

Looks like some people may not have been listening.

Shoot, okay, everybody have their answers.

Now, I'm I'm plain, but I don't really can't like I can't.

We're gonna start with Bear Bear what.

Had to guess it'd be the ocean?

Okay, Gary, what's yours? Broncos Misty his right leg and Spence, I got nothing, Okay, Turkey tracks the The correct answer is when just as the sun's see you threw me off with his just as the sun's coming up, you can see the milky way, and that's uh, that's what he uses to transition. I was looking at the joke or the other. Okay, here's another another question that was used. Hopefully somebody can get this one. It was mentioned in there when when when the the soldiers were taking a

You got it, at least I got part of it.

Okay, everybody got their answer.

Bear ahead coffin, He wouldn't.

Gary toe coffin? Okay, toe coffin.

Misty bronco toepint. Answer is tow pincher. You got one one, mister Spencer has one. Gary, you get point five for that one. How about we do point four? Okay? Third question, what year was Ossiola's grave exemed? That was mentioned many times everybody, Oh, can we get it in the decade? Oh no, I would like the exact year. I didn't put an actual date on there, just a year. I don't think you mentioned the Actually, no, we didn't. We didn't say the actual the actual date. Okay, bear, I.

Should quit going first. I'd say nineteen seventy three.

Gary sixty seven.

Okay, Misty sixty three, sixty five, nineteen sixty seven is the answer with.

What were you doing in nineteen sixty seven?

I was just.

Digging up grade. First year in college, first year at college. Really when graduating sixty six?

Yeah?

When were you in the army sixty.

Nine, sixty eight? I think?

So you went to college one year, one year. I graduated sixty six, college one year, and we go, we're gonna flunk out, Let's go to Let's go to the army and fight for a country.

That's what we did now, me and my buddy.

Realistically, though the Vietnam War was boiling. Yeah, and you knew that you were going to be drafted. Tell me that story.

Well, my Actually the real story is my dad looked at me one day and he said, I don't think you're gonna make it in college boys really, and I go, I think you're probably right, daddy. I think I'll join the army. No, no, he was real nice. So I got my buddy, Jimmy Sears, and I go, Jimmy, it's time we make a move brother, and he went with

So out of Hot Springs, you know, there's like ten guys that.

A volunteer to go to Vietnam.

Yeah, well, we didn't volunteer to go to Vietnam.

Well, you joined the army went to Europe.

Well, no, we went to Europe.

You know, we signed up an extra year to get the schooling that we wanted, and we said we'd like to be postal clerks. Seem pretty safe, yep. Yeah, And anyway, but you were in Vietnam. Yeah, so I go to Europe as a postal clerk. Actually I wanted in finance, but they made me go to postal. So I'm in Europe for fifteen months. We're traveling, you know, we're seeing Europe.

Man. This is like a party deal going on.

And all of a sudden we get this little letter that says, come on boys, we're going to the other side of.

The world, to Vietnam. So how long are we in Vietnam?

A year?

A year in Vietnam? Okay, I did a year in Iraq. My story is almost the same. Dropped out of college playing a punk band, September eleventh, joined the army.

You're in Iraq? Wow, graduated U of A when I got back, so nice.

It is a lot like that. And then here here you are.

And being a banker and a farmer's pretty much the same thing. I'm I'm excited about the future.

I would like to hear Gary Gary Newcomb's punk record, punk album.

Yeah right. Questions Okay, what was the name of the man who vandalized the grave of Osceola in nineteen sixty six? Last name? I will I will take last name.

As a correct because his family name was Shame.

Oh I remember, I remember? Oh, dang it. I was going to make a joke. Okay, we're going to start with the doctor Misty Newcomb.

I may not have gotten to that point of the podcast because I did talk about this an awful lot before and bad guy.

Bad guys Okay, bad guy Spencer Shriver Okay, Schneider, Schneider, Schneider. I remembered it, but by drivers his name Driver?

Could I get like point two for that?

One point two gets point?

Do I get anything.

One that I would like to get it for the sixties?

Next question? It's another name. The next question is another.

Let me stop for a minute, though, ODIs Driver was the reason that Osciola's grave was exist.

Yes, you because he stolen He claimed to stole his bones and actually went to Fort Moultrie, broke in there and dug down into the grave.

And uh, Misty was telling me that she brought up the comedy skit about the people digging holes? Was it Nate Barghetsi, Yeah, who's like, Who's like? You know, you always hear about people murdering people and digging like shallow graves.

You were talking about how hard landscaping was his life. His wife wanted to plant some and he was like, you know, people murder someone and you hear him getting caught because they didn't bury it deep enough. It's literally the most important hole you ever dig in.

Your entire life.

And you're like, now we're just a call quits you.

Basically just like ticket holes is really hard and uh and and so odors shreiver goes to the grave and like digs like a foot down and is like, I think I'll just say that I got the bones. And he actually took animal bones back.

Oh he did take Yeah.

This wasn't on the podcast.

What animal He just had some animal bones that he you know, like this is Osceola's bones. One does and buried him and like went on with the whole shtick. And so the National Park archaeologists were like, wait a minute, did he really And they go to the grave and it's like, well, somebody dug. But if there's just a hole, you can't tell if they dug six inches or if

Like, well, friends, but.

Lady, careful now that we're leading into other questions.

Okay, well, no, we know Patricia's name.

She knew the guy.

It's pretty it's pretty interesting.

I like to point out how good the army is at digging holes, like they put that casket down deep, because that's about the.

Only thing we do wells digging.

Yeah, and I didn't get a bunch of mail in Iraq, so I don't even postal clerk and ain't something either, So but digging holes, we can do it.

It's the second time in this recording that your hole digging has been that's true, so you must be very good at that.

Okay, okay, next question on you know, going on what Clay just said, What was the name of the National Park official who led the exhumation of Osciola's grave. One point for first name, which was mentioned several times. Now Clay didn't get to finish the store. Second point two points if you can name the full name and doctor Wickman mentions mentions his name, I call him so and so because I knew him. Mm hmm man, she'd be

Gary we.

Wrong, wrong Bear, it's Bronco. His correct name was John Griffin.

That's triangles too.

You know, you don't give up on the play. That's what mister Newcomb just proved.

Okay.

And for for our last question, this one's a little more conceptual. I'll be I'll be the decided.

I want I want questions that people have to give like a speech, and we guess.

This is this is the one. This is the one. Okay, Actually it's actually two part.

You can't start with multi to.

What university uses traditional seminal image likeness to represent them. Everyone should get this one right, Okay, Okay, Misty, Florida Florida State will take it. Spencer a team even Arkansas could beat Florida Florida. Point of order, Florida is not correct, University of those dims the Gators. Not that that's right. Okay, you didn't earn.

That, I got?

I got?

Okay. If you can't, the university uses seminal image images and likenesses to represent them. Why is this significant? Well, write it down. Maybe a little too broad, No, it's not too broad. There was there were a couple of real specific things that were mentioned by Mayo. Why that was significant?

Okay, can you repeat the question?

Yes, the University of the Florida State University uses images and likenesses to represent them. Why is this significant? Okay, Gary Nukeomb.

It was sanctioned by the Indians themselves. They had they had an image that they didn't like. The Indians didn't like it, so they changed it and they approved it, and they said.

Okay, a one point for Gary Nucomb Misty.

Well, I was going to say it's controversial, but it's not in this case. It's it's a controversial thing to do modern in modern times, I mean.

Just like in the last like two years.

Well, that's why Josh didn't ask the question. My follow up was going to be twenty four what does your boards say common controversy and Teddy Bear?

Okay, I'll think about this one. Yes, decision making rights accurate, Garb. I'll accept that because the tribe approach FSU, that's correct, and they have inputsh agents, it was a partnership with FSU. Bear, I don't have How is that not the answer? What's that not the answer? Because they're like one of the few and clay, What did you write accurate clothing partners, not mascots. That was the other highlight. Yeah, these are

I I had it had been a while since I thought much about FSU.

They're not trying to throw shade on them.

They're like two and ten this year or something.

Well, no, but when I when I pulled up and saw the war chant in that stadium with you know, eighty thousand people, So you.

Saw that that recording? Was that you did you make that recording?

No?

No, okay, no, no, no, no, I I just got it off the internet.

But but uh, but it was.

It's pretty powerful, especially knowing that there actually is a little bit of there's some meat on that rhone that they partnered with the tribe, and so you know, an actual seminole is the one who rides out on this Apple Usa horse with a flaming spear. Well, they do their war chant and that's pretty cool. Yeah, i'd be really it was. It's pretty cool.

You think about like the struggle to like to not be forgotten by modern society for like Native people's and that's a whole Like it's ingenious, you know, like because I mean it's on display, your your traditions are accurate.

Yeah, I don't know. I think it's I think it's awesome.

Yeah, and I do think that there probably are some I don't know that everybody likes it, right, I think Chandler.

Demeyo, who was the one who we spoke with, and he was.

A young guy, and uh uh I have heard not from him, not from anybody that unofficially, but some of the older generations sometimes don't like it.

That's what I heard.

And I mean, you know, just I appreciated his opinion. I mean he literally was like giving his opinion. He's like, I actually think I appreciate the way it's represented. You know. I think if you're going to have it, involving the tribe and showing a level of respect not just exploitation, is valuable.

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, Christy and I were talking this morning. She's like, what what's the takeaway? From this series, and I think one of the biggest takeaways is just to to bring awareness to the struggles and the fight and the the things that have happened over the years. I think, I think when when that history gets lost, that's when when cycles are repeated. And so I think this has been a great, a great series to just bring awareness.

Yeah, you know, I think you learn I learn a lot about American history inside of these things.

Just if you if you listen.

To all the historical Bear Grease episodes, like it's it's not like a class on American history, but yeah, you know, you learn about Andrew Jackson, you learn about the Indian Removal Act, you learn about the kind of the context of society and what was going on, just by kind of hyper focusing on one little section. And if you do that ten times, you kind of you start to build a bigger story of kind of how things happened.

All this as we go, you know.

But I tell you what I took away from Osceola is actually how little we knew about him as a person. We actually didn't know. He only lived thirty four years and there were only like two years of his life that he was in the spotlight, you know, we talked in kind of to me, that was one of the most interesting things about him, was that he had this

Prison for the last three months of those two years, you know, and.

So he would have had very little probably understanding of his own his own recognition, and that also probably wouldn't have been something that he would have been that concerned about. Like like we did talk about how you know, he was known to kind of have an ego, Like that was something that a theme that you see that you know, he.

Was just.

He had some interest in being known for something, but that like that was like not his goal.

You know, But you don't you don't really ever see you don't ever there's no transcripts of big speeches that he did.

There's so much was lost.

But anyway, what stood out to you, Spence, anything anything from the whole series?

Yeah, the whole series.

It's just you had a quote at the I think it was the last one where you you know, you said with Solomon that there's nothing new under the sun, and you talked about like the abortion thing with the with the woman there, and even just like listening to it, you see stuff like even now like we're talking about not to be political, but millet the military deport you know, potentially rounding up a large section of population.

And that's what I thought about.

I thought about And I'm not passing judgment either way, but you know, it's like every couple hundred years, it's just seems like with the Japanese, with the Native Americans, and then you know you even just stuff with like in that what eighteen thirty old AJ was like all

And and and I think I just think it's incredibly valuable.

Yeah, you know, I think governments are inherently interested in their in their best interests.

Yeah, yeah, that's it.

I mean, that's essentially boils down every decision, good and bad that's been made by governments is that they're they're working in their own self interest, which is is supposed to be in the end interest of the people. But then it's like, well, it can't be an interest of all people. He's got to be interest of maybe the majority of people. But I mean, don't you know, it's just like injustice.

And even like that interplay like you talked about what you're talking about earlier about giving these little peaks and how people were like the culture was pro pro oh Ciola, you know, like people saw him as a hero, you know, at the same time they were looking to to stop what he did. And I don't know, so even that like interplay between culture and government, it's it doesn't necessarily always line up in our society, you know, And that's interesting.

Yeah, Ostiola Bear, whatsood out to you? Just like whole whole takeaway the whole series.

Yeah, I think the kind of both of you guys have said, but just it kind of opened my eyes to a lot of history that I would have never known it also, and teach you that in school they didn't well but you heard some like like you said, some like familiar names that you would have learned, you know, Andrew Jackson then but then but it was kind of interesting to see that side of it.

Also.

It kind of, at least for me, removed a lot of preconceived kind of stereotypes of like Native Americans and stuff like. It just kind of tore down a lot of things that you that are just kind of like almost built into the.

I don't know, the way that the cultural way that we.

Would see Native Americans just like in like movies and stuff, you kind of have this image, but this definitely like tore it down and kind of put them on a more you know, realistic level.

Yeah.

And then overall I thought the story was like a very it was a it was it was a bear grease story, you know, like there there were so many different aspects to it, and like you said at the beginning of the most recent podcast, sometimes the reality is you know, I can't remember exactly what you said, but it's.

Bad than the myth.

Yeah, and it was like his bear grease lye soap to wash that off, all.

Right, Yeah, but like it was wild, like even in this last episode, like Osiol has been dead for like how many years, like one hundred years, and there's still stuff going on and there's still twisting turns in the story.

Yeah.

So yeah, it was overall a great series.

We uh.

To ask a specific question about.

About the the the child in the grave with Ostiola.

What do you think about that? Dad? I couldn't even relate to it. I mean, it just where this kid come from?

Man?

Yeah, maybe when did you well, maybe I missed something, you know, did I write they say something I didn't hear.

I don't know. I just was like, what about the first reader.

I'm sitting in the back of the class, thinking about what I'm gonna do at recess, you know.

And then all of a sudden there's a kid down there.

All of a sudden there's a test, and I'm going, I don't know.

I mean, that's the way it hit anybody that learns the story. It's like they're digging down to check out Osceola to confirm that he was in fact headless. You know, it wouldn't have been too surprising for them to get down there and learn that his head was there and that the whole head thing was just a myth, because before there was you know, i mean, the world before video documentation, audio documentation, typewriters, you know, the ability to really document stuff.

I mean, the world was just full of you didn't know if something was true or not.

Yeah, and so you know, but when they got down there, they actually confirmed that he did not have a head, and then you know, and the way his body was pushed up way to the front of the grave that he had been dropped in there. And then but I guess the way we have, I guess we really have most of the information that there is. But with the way the information was presented, Josh, what do you think you heard me say that?

I didn't. It was the only time.

And it's not like I'm disagreeing with doctor Wickman, but she was very convinced knowing, and I mean, golly, she's got more right to have an opinion than I do. But just in general, I didn't feel like it was really fair to just be like a you know, a mother killed her child and buried it. It was just like, wait a minute, we just don't have enough data to

I don't know, what do you think.

Gosh, I don't know. I mean, that's a tough one because there doesn't seem a logical reason for any of it, right, you know what I mean, so it's like there's so many wild cards that play there that you just it's it's hard to even I mean, it's it would be speculation. You know, any any possible scenario would be speculating.

I just thought of something, Why couldn't they do DNA annow.

But they'd have to exam him again unless they had unless they had DNA from when they exemmed him. Because I had the same thought, I was like, why don't they just do DNA? But they wouldn't have known to do DNA testing at that point in nineteen sixty seven.

Do you think that maybe we know more than everyone else.

It's like a cold case mystery. I mean, this could be your next branch of the Beargers podcast.

We're going back down.

Podcast.

What do you think?

I know the answer? It was a graveyard. You know, we've got a graveyard. I live in a subdivision. We got a graveyard that when y'all were little kids, we walked over and had to williams of a tree or you know, pulled the witch and sticks and then out in the woods. I think I took you to another grave. I'm just out hunting. I'm looking here to swimpter well,

I just discovered it. And I hate to bring this topic back up for a third time.

We're going to talk about the vine again.

Nope, for a third time in this podcast. Digging a hole is hard if you've already got a whole point.

Yeah, that's probably true, easier to do well.

I think what you're saying, Dad makes a lot of sense, and it's going to go to this is like, what if it was complete coincidence that they just dug a straight wall grave that just happened to be right next to right next to where they buried a little a little kid.

I think the why to me, I think you can miss something if you don't con it. Or the fact that a new mother's situation is so terrible that she saw it as a kindness. Sure, because like when it talked about Ossila, and I'm probably saying that wrong, but you look at that Clay's got a picture there and it's this real proud man. He was covered in lice

Yeah, well, I mean I think it's it's perfectly plausible that that it was it was a seminole child that could have been you know, in fantaside.

Because other you said, other society, I know, Greek and Romans did that.

I think it's I think it's fairly common that it hunter gathers this ancient hunter gathered societies that you know, infantaside was was common.

So it's like it's it's it would be in the playbook, you know.

But so I'm not discounting that bit of a downer, but I'm not discounting it even a little bit. But I also think I hadn't thought of that, Dad. Maybe it's just maybe they just dug a hole and just happened to be right beside a little infant. And would you have put a big old headstone and done a big old thing for an infant.

Maybe not.

I mean maybe it just would have been like man the child, you know, maybe it was dead when it was born and they had to bury it and it was unmarked.

Maybe it's not connected to osiola at all at all.

Yeah, I think a lot more important issue is that his head was in a jar in the picture window of the store door.

Yeah, I mean can you imagine that.

Was it ever reburied like in return?

No?

Well, I mean that was a hosted we don't know where it's at, you know, that was that was still missing. That was a big part of episode three is that it's it's still gone. It's it's and and doctor Patricia Wigman thinks it's still out there.

I mean, what kind of society would want to look at a head in front of a dealer's department store.

Hey, the eighteen hundreds, it was eighteen hundreds were wild, yeah, wild.

And they would look at us and say this exact same thing.

They would look at.

Some of the brutal of some of the stuff going on today and be like, Kyle, Leen, I bet you people had a lot of buckskin stuff in the store back then.

Yeah, yeah, down on a little rock started.

Uh, well, Misty, do you have any thoughts on the on the on the child.

No, you know, I'll just say for the whole series, and and kind of to spends this point as well, and the whole series. I think it was when we were I'm ninety percent sure when we interviewed Chief Been Barnes for the to come to interview, he said, don't talk about us unless you talk with us. That was a quote that that their tribe had and that they didn't want everyone else to tell their story. They wanted

One of the things I liked about her too, is that she probably knew the history better than any one individual in the tribe. But at the same time, she never tried to like assimilate into them, like she always knew like this is their history, not my history, and

But it was real clear to me that that the thing she was probably most proud of in her career at least was that she lived on that reservation with those.

People, like she really loved those people.

Yeah, you know, uh, that was very clear.

I liked her because she was like protective of the truth.

Yes, yeah, like no matter which way cuts like, she's just like, no, this is this is how they would have been thinking then. Yeah, And sometimes it surprised you either way, you know, and it just I really appreciated just her her tenacity for.

Veracity, veracity wow, wow.

Tenacity for bear grease, tenacity for veracity.

Well, hey, it's been it's been a great conversation. Thanks for thanks for coming up. Dad, and uh, Misty and Spence and everybody, uh, anything we're supposed to talk about.

Josh, I don't think so. I think we covered it.

Covered it all.

Yep.

Well, I'm always a little bit sad when we move on from a from a from a character. But something that happens pretty often is that people hear the episodes and start doing research or they they know something and they contact me and they're like, hey, man, you gotta you gotta do this, you gotta come talk to this guy.