Ep. 17: Bear Grease [Render] - White Panthers, Black Roosters, and Danny-Boy Boone

the Beargrease Render. Man, have we ever have we ever got a show for you today? I've got I'll do introductions as I usually do. Mr Brant reads, how are you doing? I'm doing good. Good to see you. As my grandfather would say, I'm good or and snuff and I ain't near as dusty to your left. Mr lukeomas back. Hey there, welcome back, Miss Nukeleliar. I'm good to be here. I have no clever statement last time that I would like to recant. Yeah, I said, definitely, wold like to rephrase.

I said you were supposed to be at the last Bargrease Render, but she was quote easily what that was? That was a misstep on my part, definitely, but it's it's great to have you back. Thank you, thank you for making the time to come to the render to your left. Josh Landbridge stillmaker acquired man. Hey, you're just killing it on being the dumb guy at the front of the that doesn't know what we're talking about. I

need someone. What I'm doing when I when I picked these interviews is I'm trying to pick like a representative person for like the masses. So I'm taking an average of all the smartest people I know, and then the not that the land Bridge imagine two continents, and then but then Josh he also so he doesn't know what we're gonna talk about, but he brings in some charm and some humor every both times. Did he not thank you? Yeah?

So that was great. What was sad though, was I recorded a couple I recorded a couple other of those just kind of impromptu. You know, I'm just like walking up to people like at my kids school that I know and and and so I don't have to explain to him why I'm doing this. I'm just like putting a microphone on their face, and so I did this twice and one of the ladies just knocked it out of the park. I was like, do you know what the Comering Gap is? And she was like, oh, yes,

of course. This is where Daniel Boone came through Key Key to the Western United States and the expansion. I was like, wow, cool. Do you know about when white Europeans went through the gap? And she was like, m Jamestown was found in the sixteen sixties. I'm gonna say sixteen seventies. And I was like, holy smoke, the first documented white man went through the Cumberland Gap in sixteen seventy four. And then he got my son on there

and he's like, oh yeah, yeah. So anyway, Josh's uh Josh, is that guys and I are in a class all our own solidly And what happened to her interview? Oh yeah, okay, listen, I I'm highly nickel with I t gear, computers, all these sort of things. Not true, Not true. That was a misstatement. I had my my my earbuds in in the truck because my truck the radio went out. Okay, so I was listening to earbuds in the truck. They're on bluetooth. I see this person I want to interview

in her car. I jump out of the truck, knock on the window, do this great interview where she just knocks it out of the park. You know, her history professor from high school was probably crying and then um and I'm I tell her. I'm like, man, that was the best one of these I've ever done. You did great. I get back in the car and basically listened to the recording because I did it on my phone, which I rarely do, but I did. And it was picking up my bluetooth of my boys in my truck being

idiots exactly. So I had to. I had the all this lady would be like, remember that home run interview? Did interview you did? Sorry? It didn't count for anything. So that's what I had to go find. Josh. To Josh's left, annual Route Professor, Dr Daniel give me all the respect possible. Dan has a spot on the on the Real Burgery's podcast coming up here, talk about just another zan on the podcast, as long as you will

get some fresh meat on this thing. And then to Dan's left, coming back in hot wherever he's been, Gary Newcome where you been? Man? Well, you know what, I wanted to give you guys a shot at it on your own, and uh, you came up short. Came up short, so you needed to bring back in kind of the a little bit of a little little daddy attitude, keep you guys in line. There you go. Well, it's great to have you. I'll tell you. I invited my mother to be on this render and she turned down. So Juju.

My mother's name is Judy, we call her Juju. She's been on the Burgar's podcast, so she's qualified to be here. The other day, she comes up to me and she says, Clay, and she kind of looks at me with those momay's and she said, now, I'm gonna tell you something. And you know you're a grown man. You don't have to do it, but when people give you feedback on your podcast, you need to treat them nice. Juju was easily replaced.

She said, I just said I was listening. I was listening to that render when you said that those boys told you that y'all didn't need to talk over each other, and then you said you all laughed and you said, keep talking over each other. Anyway. She was like, Clay, you need to pay attention. So did she say anything about the treatment of Valley. That's where I thought that. No. I I did speak to Alex this week, though. Yeah. Yeah.

It was a gamble to me whether he was gonna be upset with me or we're gonna be like best friends. Turns out he just came in and was like, you know, just we just had a normal little chat, and I just said, hey, thanks for being the whistleblower, Alex. It's just really cool. Yet stand with Alex, to stand with Alex. Okay, speaking of this, Alex, I forgot about this just happened, so it's not in my in my render notes here, I Okay, I haven't listened to The Meat Eater camp

Fire Stories yet. I started it because because I'm saving it for an eighteen hour road trip that I'm going on by myself very soon. Okay, So that's it's not like lack of interest. Why I haven't listened to The Meat Eater camp Fire Stories, an audible book new Time's best selling. Okay, so that's what the scandal was about last time. If you remember that I recounted a story. How can we forget that I someone had told me and then I recounted it, and then people were like,

oh man, it was way off. Well, I have a guy write me today and say, Clay, I heard your version of the story and the version of the campfire meter story, and then it wasn't that much different. And so I'm like, maybe we've been blowing the whistle that didn't need to be blown. I guess we'll find out because I'm about I'm I'm a couple of hours into. Christie and I had to go to Tulsa this weekend and we turned it on and listened to it. Men, it's really good. This guy sent you got some amazing

stories in there. He sent you mess His name, I guess was Brave crewcom was it? But yeah, yeah, And I was like, as a matter of fact, I think I'm gonna hunt that guy down and send him my hat Beaver Beaver felt out. Okay, Um, so just for if anybody's new to the Render, Okay, the the barg Rease podcast, our documentary style podcast is so you know, just polished produce, scripted, which people get scared of that word, but the truth is it is very scripted. The burger

Ease Render is very much unplugged. Okay, that's the idea. And so we do housekeeping for the first section of the podcast, where we just kind of go through some stuff, and then the last, the last section of the podcast, we get serious Dana and we we we talked about the content of the Last Burgeras podcast. So I wanted to I wanted to tell you all. I have had no less than let's just say, fifty two hundred. I'm losing count of how many people have sent me messages

about the Sturgil Simpson album. They've been sending to your messages, Oh got you every day, every day, and it's it's either one or two songs or the whole album. Yeah, yeah, you gotta listen to it, like, man, I can't listen to it again. It's wonderful. Yeah. So this guy, I don't know. I didn't know much about Sturgill Simpson, still don't, but he made a as I understand it, it's a it's uh, what do they call albums where all the songs are connected together to kind of tell a story

musical concept. I don't know, but he he talks a lot about mules hounds, and everybody's like, Clay, you're gonna love it. And so anyway, it's a cool album. So yeah, so no need to alert me to uh to that anymore. The first one was really cool. I mean the first guy that did was cool. Um, I think listen to Jujuy listen. Everybody that sent me a message felt like they were the first person. But my response, well because I was just like, thanks, man, that's awesome. That's one

of response. Thanks man. No, no, it was good. It was good. Okay, uh covering covering a few things, and then I'm gonna give you all a chance to if you have any news or anything that you want to update. So. I was recently on the Metiator podcast, and this is another thing that my inbox has been full of this week.

I was on Steve Ronella's Meteor podcast. Man, I was, I was bear hunting, was Steve Ronella, And somewhere in the back country I brought up that I had read somewhere I didn't know where, but I had read that a way to measure the amount of bear grease and an old way from the eighteen hundred seventeen hundreds, A way to measure a volume of bear grease that could be used as a monetary exchange like money was called an eel e L L of bear grease, which was the tanned neck height of a deer that was sold

together and then used as like a you know, like a like a a big, big flask that would hold bear oil. So I tell him that and he got excited about that, as was I, and he was like, oh, man, that's cool. You know this old archaic unit of measurement. And so we get on the podcast and he's like, hey, where did you hear that kind of got called out? I listened to it, yeah, and I was like, man, I said, I know, I just know for a fact I read it in some type of academic reading years

and years ago, WIA Wikipedia. And I couldn't. I couldn't tell him. I said, I don't know. And then Janis gets on there and they start looking and I mean pretty soon it's like clay, You're just full of it. And I didn't have any I didn't have an answer, and I actually, I guess I didn't know it was coming because I had written an email to one of an author that I thought had said it, and he was like, nope, I never said that. But I lost sleep over this. I'm serious. It bothered me big time.

I mean, not that they gave me a hard time. I mean I deserved that if I couldn't couldn't find it um But just like I knew that it was somewhere and I couldn't remember. I mean, it's been so many years, but I've said it for years as if it was just like truth. And that's why I was pretty confident in it. Man, the Burgrease world came through for me. Apparently there's people that are a lot better at researching phrases, and there are some really technical ways

to search the internets. Is that what you're saying. Well, I mean he was just Google searching, which I did too. But the first guy and the first guy, this is gonna incur people too. You know, I don't know what it's gonna ocur. A we're encouraging the people. I feel good, okay. The first guy that sent me the screen capture from an academic journal that this was in, and it was citing the source of a of a of an old journal that said an eel of beargrease is a unit

of measurement that could be used as an exchange. I mean, I can, I'll tell you what. I'll pull him and read it I was so excited I sent him a beargrease hat. But within minutes, let's say ours like tons of people from all over the country started sending me the documentation documentation, So anyway, I sent it to. I sent it to, I sent it to the to the higher ups, let them know. UM. So no, I crushed the send button on that one. Okay, here it is so it says a black bear was a valuable commodity

to early settlers of Arkansas. It was. It was. It was in UM a thesis project done by University of Arkansas student about Arkansas black bears. So I probably studied this in two thousand three and four when I was supposed to be studying what I was against. You know, they're to study in college, but didn't. UM black bear was a valuable commodity to early settlers of Arkansas. The price for bear skins at Arkansas Post in eighteen oh

six range from one to two dollars each. Bear oil sold for one dollar per gallon in eighteen thirty four. In earth In in the early eighteen eighties, and eel of bear grease e L L L l L and L of bear grease formed from the hide of the head and neck of a deer was a standard medium of exchange. A man's status as a provider was judged by the number of eels of bear grease that stood by the fireplace. Bear meats sold for ten dollars per

hundred pounds. That is the creed of this podcast. We're gonna have it stamped into bronze and make a plaque like a very heavy place. Is this your tombstone? Could be used for that later. I like killing multiple birds with one stone. That's good stuff right there. It came from. Somebody's gonna ask me where it came, was the wording the measure of a man. A man's status as a provider was judged by the number of eels of bear

grease that stood by the fireplace. What if he had like thirty of them there, what's he gonna do with all that? Well, I mean it was a It was a measurement of exchange. They'd take them to the store, trade it for something. But it doesn't it make sense how so they used the The skin of a deer was basically a serious medium of exchange. But they were using the big part of the hide, so that like the legs, the tail, the neck and stuff would have not been as valuable. So presumably you cut the neck

and head off and make almost like a sock. I mean, could imagine a hack poured out his mouth. I'm telling you, ranside, if you think they had neck of bar grease, you gotta fill a hole deer time. Man. Yeah, what do you think about that? Dad? I think it's awesome. Man. Yeah, that's what I've got from my wealth. That's what's going to my kids. He's got his his elves filled with bitcoin rancis bear grease. Okay, moving on, So, uh, we got,

we got, we got. We took a little flak from one person one person over my story of the Captain Rooster. Did y'all know that it kind of hurt? Well? I knew it there was a chance of that, but also knew that and in before I said the story, I don't know if you remember, but I said, anybody that challenges me on the treatment of this animal just absolutely has no ground to stand on if they've ever eaten a chicken an egg that came from any top of

confinement agricultural farm. Because this chick, this rooster had the life of a king, except for when you had a rooster actually under every I can't believe how many messages we've received from people who want to tell you their mean rooster stories. I also can't believe how many pictures we found of Captain attacking people in full attack mode. It's a he was pretty mean, and I think that it's only instinctive to protect yourself. I will say when I saw that this man probably did not grow up

on a farm and has never been around a rooster. Okay, okay, I mean, but the thing of it was is that he lived a very long life for a rooster, and we only attempted to kill him once. Proponent ofthanation, Well, I mean, it's like if your dog bites your what are you gonna do? Shoot your neighbor. I'm wondering if he thought that it was unethical to shoot him with a bow and arrow. Well, okay, I mean there's factors of this story. Buddy. Oh, I'm not talking to you,

I'm talking to the guy. It's like I didn't want to shoot a gun right here. You know, maybe that's an US here all the time. Though perhaps perhaps Shepherd's a better shot with a botto. Perhaps a bow and arrow is a more ethical way to kill something than a gun. Oh I could. I mean, I'm being serious. That's not the reason we did it, is it philosophical conversation? Here to pray on? That is the reason you did it? Well, because I wanted shepherd to take care of it for me,

just real quick. But when I was three years old, I went to my grandfather's farm and a rooster attacked me and I studed. You know, the family laughed about that for years. Yes, you know all that stuff. Well, oh you went back, you went back to tell what happened, and you stuttered to your mind. Well no, yeah, yeah, you know, and it was bad and and and here's how you handle a deal like that. I mean, all this stuff y'all doing is it's a waste of time.

You're saying, how do we handle someone that has a complaint? No? No, No, the rooster that night for supper, guess what we had. We had cheek and in dumplins. My grandfather went out there immediately and killed that rooster and threw it in the hey and cooked it. That's a good story. I've I've got a Louin knucom story. So my grandfather's name is Louin Nukem his pictures right there. That is Dad's father, lou and Knucom. When I was a little boy, he told me, and and this was a this story was

right with philosophical proverb. Okay, he told me that when he was a boy. You remember this story. I know you'll remember. Dad, he said, when he was a boy, they had this big rooster, big old rooster. They got a new rooster, a young rooster. The big rooster whooped on the young rooster. The young rooster he became subordinate

to the big rooster. Well, the young rooster grew up and perhaps said he always knew that the young rooster could have whipped the old rooster, but ever did because he thought he was the lesser of the two, he said. One because chickens don't know how to look at the mirror, he said, he said. One day, And I don't know if he did this, or if his dad did this or what, but I believe the story to bend him

to have done this. He covered the old chicken in black wood ash to change its color, and then pitched it out in the yard. And the young rooster sees a new rooster and comes and just whoops. The fire out of the rooster, and and he was trying to tell me that to say, it's all in your head. You know, you can do a lot more than you think you can do. Do you remember him telling that story. He preached that to us. I'm telling you he told

me that story five times. I think he liked better than no. Okay, So I was telling that about the guy that was given us a hard time, And tell what you said, Dad, Dad called me another day. Well, you know, this guy didn't like the captain story, and and you know I could see where he was coming from, but I didn't particularly like, you know, the way you addressed him, even though it was it was very well, and I was addressing him just in talking to he,

like I never officially. Yeah. So anyway, Yeah, I just told Clay, I said, you know, when you're dealing with people that are coming at you from a negative standpoint, my experience working for forty years is you immediately agree with him. You know, I mean I have seen so many I've defused so many arguments by going, you know, you're making a great point that they used to come in my office and be so mad they couldn't even

see straight. And the first thing I would did they were dealing with people that would have gone, hey, man, this is the regulations, you know, and I would go, man, I don't blame you for being mad, I said, I've had something like you know, so you defuse them and then you eventually tell them where they're wrong and they leave happy. And so when I look at this kid, I thought, you know, it's ironic, but he believes the exact same thing. You know, he he doesn't want the

animal rights people to take our hunting privileges. So I mean he pretty much slapped down his reputation, his love for bear grease. He laid it on the line. Man, he said, I ain't tolerating this stuff. You know. He misinterpreted the whole thing. He made a mistake. But I saw that. I like this kid, you know what I mean. He's got the right, he's got what you're fighting for. He just misinterpreted this deal and carried it too far, I thought, And I bet you Bill he's under thirty

years old. I'll tell you why. Because cancel culture is essential, where if somebody does anything wrong to you, you cancel them, just canceled done. And that that is kind of the modern trend where I bet he's on a thirty years old could be wrong. Hey, the opposite side of that is instead of attacking you, I mean, he could have done it in a way where where you know, I mean a lot of people don't like your shooting a chicken with a boat. You know, well, how did my

grandfather kill that chicken? He's probably wrong as your neck by the same thing. But so he should have been supporting you. You should have been supporting him. No, it's wild, you know, I read I believe I heard this on a podcast, But it was a guy that was He basically did a study on the on the humane treatment of chickens. That his study was on the humane treatment of chickens, and he studied two types of chickens. He studied confinement agriculture chickens that are raised in chicken houses,

and he studied cock fighting roosters. Oh man, Yeah, And this guy wasn't like pro cock fighting. What he was trying to do was show the hypocrisy inside of mankind in general, and basically a confining agricultural chicken, like you'd go to your big mainstream grocery store the cheapest chicken you can buy, that chicken is genetically modified such that it has huge amounts of meat. These animals are designed

to live six months and then be butchered. If they live longer than that, they waste so much they can't even function. They're fed all kinds of hormones there. I mean, just they they live, you know, literally probably have a square foot of space, and we're able to live. We had two chicken houses, chickens in each house. Yeah, so

I'm not dogging that. Don't somebody if you write me and say that I'm anti agriculture, that's fighting and and and then the guy said, so he paints the picture that can find them an agriculture chickens in their life six months, you know, all this, And then he goes, and then I went down. He maybe had to go to another country, or maybe the study was done a long time ago. I don't him. And he said, cock fighting chickens, they usually don't start fighting them till they're

two years old. So they've already lived three times the amount of time that I confined an agriculture chicken would live. And he said, they're fed incredible diets, and they they get they have much more space. A lot of them are raised in bigger spaces. This is not an endorsed And the guy was like, Hey, I'm anti cock fighting, Like, but I've got a question. Do you think this gentleman that wrote in about the captain, if we covered you an ash, do you think you whip your tail that's

a great way to get out of this car? No. I really do being being inside the hunting community and baiting bears and doing a lot of things that seemed controversial to people. I love actually getting down to the nitty gritty of the ethics of some of this stuff because usually there's like big holes inside of the way people think that if you just slowed down and looked at a little different you'd be like, well, or fill those holes up with information? Yeah, do a little research,

a little study, read a book. We are about twenty minutes past when we should have stopped talking about chicken. Chicken was making me hungry. I'm starving. Uh oh okay. I did have a guy send me a picture of a legit black panther, A white one, A white one. Yep, it's called a It's not an albino, but it's a lucistic panther. Uh. Animal has partial loss of pigmentation. It

isn't purely right. This they called a puma, but it's essentially I'm not I'm not sure if it's the exact same species as our mountain lions, but was found in the Brazil's Atlantic rainforest and they've been getting truck camera pictures of it. Supposedly this is from so I haven't checked on the much more than just a quick service. But hey, thanks man whoever sent me that. That was nice not to get a black one. Still getting Black Panthers photos by the day without any explanation. The Black

Panthers are literally sending him their selfies. Yeah all right, Josh, you have a song for us? No, no, no, oh, I forgot the funniest part. I forgot the funniest part of the story of the guy that gave it was a hard time about the Captain story. He gave us five stars. I saw that he gave us five stars. Remember the other guy was like the other guy was like, man, this is this is the legendary podcast. Two stars. So this guy that got onto us, he was like, Claire,

I'm never listening to this again. YadA YadA, YadA. Five stars. Man, you win something, you lose something kind of balances out in the end. Yeah, you guys had some reviews you wanted to talk about though, didn't you. I've got one, okay, Yeah, tell me what it is. Josh read it? Uh this guy, I thought it was an excellent review. Uh the Bearded Mystery Man. I knew this is probably the best podcast to ever hit the digital airways. It's informative, interesting, humorous, challenging,

and so much more. I look forward to the release every week. The main podcast is great, but the render is next level. The group of panelists every other week are some of the most entertaining humans on Earth, especially that land Bridge guy. What a shining star. What I wouldn't give to have a face to face conversation with him. Keep up the good work, Clay and meat Eaters. Yeah, that's gonna be dead. You wrote that in my mind

that it was a plan. Okay. I read it and I was like, I actually sent it to you right away, and I was like, man, this is like I'm thought maybe one of your kids did it or something I didn't know you did. This is Josh, this is this is this is impeachable. Canceled, canceling, canceled, Josh, I felt good. Hey, I got one so on Friday. The title of the review is great Waste of time. It's from the Wild Archer, and I'll just read the as long it's great, I'll

read the first. In the last sentence, he says, I just want to take the opportunity to thank Mr Newcom for such a spectacular waste of my time. He of course, he's being a tongue in cheek, he's being facetious, but he just goes on to talk about he just enjoys basically hanging out with us, and and he says, you've ever driven through southwestern Wyoming on his way back and forth to work, you'd be dozing through the boarding too. Thanks for wasting my time in such fashion. Clay and

guests and all the boys in the render. It's just fun. But I say, I really enjoy coming and hanging out. And it's cool that this gentleman is hanging out with us. Okay, the Chicken thing. I don't look at iTunes reviews, but I read that one. I pulled it up to read The Chicken and we were in the car and I just started reading them, a bunch of them out loud, and we came to this one, and he said, I honestly was not a fan of Clay when he was

on The Meat Eater. I thought he dominated the conversation too much, and I just looked and said, the story of my life. He goes on to say that he loves this one, and okay, okay, all right, now give it his own podcast. I love his take on on issues and topics, great stories, and I like the render. Keep it up. But it's pretty funny. Yeah. I love it when people are trying to say something nice and they started with telling kind of the baseline of how

they really hated you before. Here's the tip of the spear. This is from Acorns five stars. Lots of Acorn talk. Quicking to the point, quicking to the point. All right, dad, did you have a review? Yeah, I have a It was very short. I was gonna read through all of them. In fact, I asked Judy to do it and pick one out for me. But this thing was just real short. And I read it and I thought, well, why I read anymore? This kid titled it. I say, kid, you

know it could be old guy like me. He said, awesome, I love the research, I love the information. Very good. Thank you, Mr Newkum something like that. But you know, when you think about it, I listened to a few podcasts, and I enjoy several podcasts, and Uh, my point is this, this bear Grease is well researched, It is scripted. There's so much time and depth put into it. That's why

he likes the research and the information. So that's why I like it is because it's not just a bunch of good old boys sitting around yepping, you know, which I like that too. Nobody wants to hear that, but but really so I compliment you on the work that's put into it. What's interesting is that people say Clay is a great storyteller. Well, guess what. When we're deer camp, you know who I listened to most. It's not Clay. It's not me. It's usually some of our friends that

are really great storytellers. But if those same people were doing a podcast, you probably wouldn't like it too much. I mean, it's the research, it's the work. So whether you're hunting, at your career, whatever you're doing, I mean, the work pays off well, and and the add some mask to really what he's saying. It's like we're reading all this stuff, and people people say plays a good storyteller, and me and Dad are like, oh, you want to find a good story teller, We'll we'll me, We'll show

you a storyteller. It's not me. And and I'm being serious. Uh. I was interviewed by a lady the other day for something and I I She was like, Clay, how do you tell stories? How do you formulate this in your mind? How do you do this? You know? How did you? And I mean, like, you know, she's saying, like, you're a good storyteller, and I just said, I said, I'm not a good storyteller. I know good storytellers, and I've always rejected when people have said that I'm a good storyteller.

And I told her this, I said, because I reject that because every time I've seen somebody that thought they were a good storyteller that it corrupted him. M. I mean like when you're at a campfire and you're the guy that's stepping up to the plate to tell eighty percent of the stories, Usually that's the guy you don't want to hear talk. Usually it's the guy sitting in the back that didn't saying anything that's really got something

to say. And what I kind of distilled my idea of storytelling down is is that a good storyteller is passionate about the story. I mean, it's not oratory skill. It's not detail, because you could you could be trained to tell a story, and there is there is some skill involved in like actually learning how to tell a story, but but a passion to tell the story for someone else.

And I think that's what fuels Burgher's like when I talk about Roy Clark and James Lawrence and Daniel Boone and these guys like, that's what I that's the dry like. So I agree with Dad. It's not about good storytelling. It's about wanting to get the story, that the truth of the story out that. You know. What's interesting is that if I had worded, if I had taken the time, which I would not do, if I had taken two or three hours and written this out, the bottom line

mine would have been exactly what you said. And here I go to tell it and I forget that. You know, so you don't forget stuff because you do the research and you actually scripted. You know. I'm in a bowl shop one day and this guy sees me walk in and he tells his buddy he goes place son Man is a great storyteller. You I'll go listen to him. And I didn't say anything, but I thought, he's really not a great storyteller. But really, deck Camp, he's not.

His storytelling on the Render is unbelievable. So any and you think, well, okay, Gary, what you're saying, anybody could do this, Well, no you can't. I can't. You gotta have the love of the subject first. You gotta have the desire to communicate it in a way to captivate people. So I mean, it goes deep. And then you can't just instantly turn it on. You gotta start reading. In allege, instead of studying algebra, you go to the library and study bear and then when you get your diploma, you

don't quit reading. You keep reading, and all of a sudden you got a base of knowledge and knowledgice, power and blah blah blah. So you know, he said it all research, it's information, and that's why these are good. Now the Render, oh my goodness, it's good too. The people are hungry for stories. I think I think we're at a time too in our just in the climate of the planet where these stories of connection to the land are resonating with people. Yeah, they really seem to be.

And I'm very, very interested in the identity, always have been for a long time. I mean personal identity, but also national identity. And that's why boone is so interesting. Hey, Josh and Misty have a song, Cumberland Gap song. So now we're gonna start talking about the Cumberland Gap. All right, Josh, tell us what you're playing. All right, we're gonna we're gonna sing a song here about the Cumberland It's David Rawlins.

David Rawlins so on the on the on the podcast that was the Wayfarers song that was, which is an old timey version of a song called Cumberly Gap. This is a newer version, I mean a totally different songs, but a new one. Yeah, okay, best you ready? We have never played the song together. This is the part I don't like about the Barrias podcast. We're just gonna yeah, coming in. Gap is the devil of a gap. Crumbling gap is the devil of a cap. Kiss me Mama, kiss your boy, bless me well and lucky for I

won't be back to live return. I'm going to Kentucky Cumberling Gap is the devil of a gap. That's what the scouts all tell you. Sure enough, it'll make it tough if it doesn't kill you, Kill you, Kentucky. She's a waiting on the other side. Give you the beaver. Put the daiyline in your rye. Brother John's already gone with the boot of jerky maiden made the trip from the bizard grip. I'd rather rest so Satan Comberland Gap. She's the devil. Love a gap. O the snowcap coming.

Victor of a bon is back. Oh we love that woman. Daniel stood on a pinnacle rock. You can tump it down the mountain, took his trustee over. Daniel started shouting, shouting, She's a waiting on the other side. Give you the beaver, the deer in your eye. And cap is the devil. Love a gap, comber then cap is the devil. Love a cap coming? Then up is the devil. Love a gap combling. Cap is the devil. Love a gap? Awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome.

Really good man, that was awesome. You know what I what I do love about I think I I like things that attract the attention of multiple genres of life. So the Cumberland Gap I can connect to a gap in a mountain from a hunting perspective, because my whole life we've talked about gaps and mountains that animals travel through that we hunt, and then this gap is also it's just so complex because this gap has become this thing that was the gateway to the West for Daniel Boone.

It was super influential in the travel corridors of Native Americans. Just super complex and so and by multiple genres, I mean our just flocked to the Cumberland Gap. I mean most of the people that I interviewed, even Josh, who didn't know much about the Cumberland Gap. He knew that folk singers wanted to sing about the Cumberland Gap. But man, what did y'all think of the podcast? It was good.

It was it was full of information that I did not know was it was it Uh, it was kind of dense, it was very I actually had to listen to it a couple of times because I got through the first time and I was like, oh wait, I missed a big portion of that. I've got to go back and listen to that again. I think the I think the part that I found the most interesting was listening to the gentleman at the end, the Cherokee. Yeah,

what a what an interesting perspective. Yeah, it was. It was neat to hear him talk because you know, I I you know, I don't know why, but I think a lot about Native American people in Native American history. I find it really fascinating. I love the art and just the the the tragedies that the Native Americans had endured through. Um too, it would be very easy to

look at that period in history and be bitter. And he was very you know, not not sweeping anything under the rug, but at the same time saying, look, this is the history that's brought us to where we are.

And uh and the the just the the value that he placed on the exploration of Daniel Boone and and while not negating the the normalcy of what it would have been for Native Americans a thousand years before Daniel man he uh, so there's I want to talk about him talking about the land Bridge because he I specifically didn't say land Bridge. I had I had another guy right in and say, hey, quit disseminating false information about

the land Bridge. There was a time when the land Bridge in in the passage of humans across the land Bridge was like the prime a theory of how humans got to North America. That theory has now been broken up and there's been newer things that have happened, and ultimately there's and I'm not an expert on all those theories. I do know that there's a place called Cooper's Ferry Deep in Idaho that supposedly has some of the oldest

human existence, which shows that potentially there was. It's it's connected to water travel into North America, into the Northwest, so like these people, you know, they're saying they came over on boats. There's also evidence that down in South America that humans have been there for way longer than people than the stuff we see from the land Bridge. So we'll do a podcast at some point on all

these different theories. But basically he was like, dude, Taylor Keane was like, your land bridge story doesn't cut it for the Cherokees. That Josh the land Bridge spillmaker was soon gonna break up and go the way of the old land bridge theory. Well, what about what about the Cherokee story of where they came from? Do you do you remember said with the blow darts that I was like,

what that blew my mind? And how okay, okay, the reason that there's no more land bridge between Alaska and Russia is because glaciers melted, sea levels rose, which would have all kind of you know, he said that their island flooded there in their stories, I mean, they didn't just make this up after here in the science like this.

These are ancient stories and and big turtles are big in their cosmology and anyway, so if that was the case, you know, he was saying, maybe they came in from the west side, maybe from the east side um of the gap. But yeah, I thought Taylor Ken's input was it was incredible. It was my It was my favorite part. And he didn't gloss over anything, and you didn't either

in the interview with him or talking to him. But when he talked about you know that forever it was Daniel Boone, you know, as that was promoted as discovering you know, the Cumberland Gap, when the Native Americans have been rolling through there for you know, ten thousand years, are as long, could be as long as ten thousand years. It was it reminded me of some old man I used to work with about when somebody else would take credit for something a job or or laboring that someone

else had done. And he would always say, you know, that's kind of like we killed a bear, but Paul's the one that shot him. Where the credit wasn't going actually going. You know, I'm sitting here bragging about you know, this this activity that we did, but really it was these other folks over here that they did it. But I was there. I was with him, yeah, but he actually, you know why Europeans we weren't even there. I tried to really paint the picture of what I have seen

painted for me. I mean, this isn't an original thought that I had, but from the the books that I've read, in research I've done, I mean, Daniel Boone was Daniel Boone because of Indigenous people, Like that's what made him. And that really is what distinguishes American identity from Europe.

Like if you really boil it down, like these people came over with totally the worldview and ideology coming from Europe, Scotland, Ireland, they came here and then they were so influenced by Native Americans, especially the first people that got here, because they had learned how to hunt. They had to learn how to survive on this continent. And and then so the Backwoodsman, the Frontiersman. Is this merging of English Western views in Native American. This this this merging of it.

And what's wild is that today? And why I was so interested in Boone is that today Boone's influence on the American hunter is extremely notable, extremely notable. Um, Misty, what was your favorite part? Well, I was gonna say that whole last section. I thought you did a good job telling this story from a lot of different angles. And I thought that Robert Morgan did a good job and kind of almost classic professor sort of instructing everyone how to hear history and how to how to take

it in. And what I liked about the podcast is that it did show, it did show multiple perspectives of

this of this piece of history. And I think that right now when we went to we went to the Cumberland Gap that's on the podcast, and we watched this little video with the kids before we we hiked it, and in the video they kind of just gloss over the fact that Native American people were there first, and it, you know, it just really kind of they were a blip on the on the picture, and as we were a hiking with that was one of my questions is

what what about that side of the story? You know, you're we're celebrating Daniel Boone and we're celebrating him as the person who discovered this, but what about what about that that side of the story. And I think what this podcast did a good job of doing is showing that, and I think it's important to do that. Clay and

I were talking. I've taught some history classes for high schoolers and one of the things that we have them do before we that I've had them do before we go into any type of histories, we just walked through the building and do a little a little walk around and then make everybody right down all the different things

that they did that they saw. And you know, the people at the front might see someone in the hallway who's gone into a room by the time the people at the back around the corner, and so they would not see that same person. And so the person at the front of the line is going to say there was someone at the in the hallway, and the person at the back going to say the hallway was empty.

And we all tell the story and we agree, we don't think anyone in the room is lying, and these are, you know, totally different stories completely, And we talked about and the importance of understanding every what everyone sees. That you don't actually know the full history of what happened in that hallway unless we have all of our perspectives, and that that's one perspective does not invalidate another. But until we have all the perspectives and really are looking

at history from all these different angles. So I like that you did that, and I think it's important. I think it's super important to have those different perspectives of it. And Taylor Keens, so, you know, wonderful representative and he knows a whole lot of the of the history, and I think it's super cool, just on a practical level, the oral tradition that they have as a people that I we, you know, I would not say we have as my family anyway, does not have that type of

of oral history. And I think those are real important components of of looking at history. So I really enjoyed the podcast. Dan, What was your favorite part? Probably two things, So one was the whole kind of the mechanism of smallpox and how like you know, these European settlers came, is this this wide open wilderness and just imagining the people. You know, I think the Dr Keane said, you know, I think if your hundred closest relatives and friends and

now all of you but five are gone. Yeah, that's oh my god. I just didn't occur to me. And the whole kind of narrative and story. And then the other thing that really stuck out to me was the right right before the very end where you read was supposedly Daniel Boone's own words, John Philson. John Philson pound

that name into people. There's there's a couple of names beside Boon that everyone's gonna know by the time they're done with this, John Philson and Lyman Draper, John Philson, John Philson was the one, and Ritchie John Philson Lionel Richie and Lyman Drake got you so um No. So Philson was the one in eighty four who wrote a book about Kentucky. One single chapter in the book was about Colonel Daniel Boone, who no one knew his name, you know, No, he was just regionally famous, and then

that catapulted him. So go ahead, So when whenever Philson, in writing in Daniel Daniel Boone's words, said, I can't remember the exact phrase, but he in his mind what was on the other side of the gap was a second paradise. Yeah, this idea that out there there's something more, there's something and just the whole you go out there. And he was anxious and worried and and needed extra philosophy. You know, he was kind of pushed to his limits, but he was in search of, you know, the idea

of there's a paradise out there. Very I don't know if it was a concerted effort. I don't think there was like an American marketing team in the eighteen hundreds that met together under some administration it was like, we're gonna market the Cumberland Gap in the West as this. But that's essentially what happened. Well, I think collectively, like, are that that kind of part of American culture and our consciousness. We wanted that, and so it naturally came out.

Think think about the direction of movement from where we came, where what Europeans came from, and they would have been coming from the only reason they left is because they didn't like it where they were. So they were they were leaving oppression, leaving poverty, leaving something and and just moment think about momentum even in physics, like you start moving a direction, it's hard to stop. So once they came west and got to the colonies and then got

to America, there was this drive. And you know, he talked about how Jefferson and Washington and all these leaders of early America were like the West, the West, the West, and I'll drop of state meant that you're here. In part three, which nobody has heard yet, but Robert Morrigan, he tells me that Jefferson said that the Ohio River was the most beautiful river in the world, and he'd never been there, but he was. And and he he

changed the entrance of one of his houses. The key entrance was originally facing the east, and he changed it to face the west. And these are the thought leaders of this country. And so the idea, this paradise beyond the mountains was just, I mean, had appeal that was unstoppable. Daniel Boone really is the forerunner of manifest They were just looking for somebody to attach that too. They were they were looking for a hero. And then the artist

came in. You know, I started the podcast by talking about George Caleb Bingham's painting and man, those in they called them the Romantic artist, perhaps as the Enlightenment artists, who um, they that picture it's not in here, it's in the house right now, but oh it shows that like the the landscape is dark and on ominous, and the big dark rocks and and and silhouettes of trees with no leaves. And then Boone's it's like he steps

into this beam of sunlight. His clothes looked like they've been pressed, looked like Malachi Nichols, and he just looks so stately and and and these guys were were influential. I'll read what what was written about, um, George Caleb Bingham, And so he was an influential writer or or artist in early Americana. He was an early artist in early America. And he said, um it said his paintings were a six. He was a significant contributor to earlier American genre painting,

a significant contributor to early Americans. Genre painting were influential and crafting and disseminating political ideologies and popular myths about American national identity in the era of westward expansion. So it's like everything was like going, we gotta go west, boys, we gotta go west. And then Dee Boone goes west and he's a hero, and he was this phenomenal person and just the the American identity just latched onto him in such a powerful way, which is which is pretty wild. Dad,

What was your favorite part of it? Well, the bluegrass. You go through the Cumberland Gap, you don't know what you're gonna find, and you find the most beautiful place on the planet almost, I mean, it's just wonderful. And and uh they said somebody said it was almost a miracle because there were no Indian tribes. There was nothing negative there. Because they looked at it. It's what blood something the country, dark and bloody they called it. The

Native Americans called the dark and bloody ground. That they wanted it. You know, I might have misinterpreted the way I looked at it. They wanted that ground for themselves, all of them wanted it, and so nobody and so all of a sudden, Danny Boy walks in and he goes, hey, man, I believe I'll take over this problem. I mean, you know that that's crazy. And the other thing that I noticed is that if we had school teachers, Misty, the if we had history teachers that could teach like this,

I mean, can you imagine the interesting? And that's why I think we all want to learn, but we don't want to learn in a boring fashion. We want to learn in a fun fashion. And and one other point is through all this trauma, all this adventure, it's like Boon would go, I think you might have alluded to it, Dan, is that I'm content. Yeah, my my brother's left me. I don't have a horse, I don't have a dog,

I don't have all my supplies. I'm going to get bat dung for wanna for you know, gunpowder, gunpowder, and and I'm happy. Man. I just look around and I go, wow, So there you go. We'll see We're gonna explore that a whole lot more in in the third podcast about really where this idea of how we experience wilderness as Westerners comes from. Dan and I talked about it quite a bit, but you're referring to Boone's account of being

that in that first part of Kentucky Man. I thought it was fascinating that Robert Morgan saw the connection between Robinson Crusoe. That was that point clear, I mean just about how like it makes total sense that he would have done that like that, he would have he would have posed his story in the terminology, the fashion, the style of the popular thing of the period, and that people read it and thought it was true, well Robinson cruizing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

exactly because they wanted it to be true. It fit there, you know, just like you said, we wanted this and so we attached it to Daniel Boone. They read Robinson Crusoe, and of course that's true. Yea's what we Yeah, yeah, hey, Clay one one last thing, it sounded to me like there were hundreds and thousands of Daniel Boone. We just happened to pick up on this guy. That's right, Probably not hundreds of thousands. But that's the point that Steve Rinella made so well, is that, yeah, there were lots

of guys doing the same stuff Boon did. And you'll hear in podcast number three spoil Alert, the first time Dan went into Kentucky, he met white guys over there. He met he met white long hunters over there, and so like he he certainly was one of the first um but wasn't the first. So there's a lot of people doing this. Um no, man, if you go back and listen to or read, you should go read. You can pull it up on the internet. You don't have to buy the book. You can pull up on the internet.

John Philson's you know, type in Adventures of Colonel Daniel Boone and you can read the whole chapter in that book. And um oh did golly Philson was a good writer or Dan was a great speaker, one or the other. He said, Philocity, Okay, they use a lot of words that we're not familiar with. Pilocity. I haven't looked this up. I'm totally going off context clues. Essentially means like happiness. Somebody felicity, felicity, felicity, felicity, felicity. Yeah, somebody look up

what that means. Because let's say I was right, then philosophy. Velocity is not a word, Alex, will you check these people. You've got some interesting space to pronounce things. Felicity f E L I C I T Y felicity. He okay. Boone said, felicity is intense happiness. Yeah. Yeah. Felicity is the companion of content and is found in our breast rather than an earthly treasure. He said that, and then he said at another point, he said, never before had

I had greater need of philosophy and fortitude. Um. Yeah, that's good. That's a really good line. Oh it was full. I wasn't able to write it all down. I wanted to come in here and read it. But you can listen to on the podcast. Um he said. He said, he and Jon Stewart had a pleasing ramble. I'm going to use that in the future for um No, but just that was that was super fascinating to me that Boon did that. Um. I did have some people that were confused, and they would have been based upon what

I presented if they had no context for it. The Cumberland Gap, there's a lot of different names. If you remember when I was in the Cumberland Gap with my boys, I called it the deer path was too, which is the Shawnee. What the Shawnee called the gap. They called it the deer path. Okay, so that's one. They also called the whole mountain range was yoto, which meant area with a bunch of deer basically, um, the warriors path. So the Cumberland Gap, if you're standing in the Cumberland

Gap on a trail, you're on the Warriors Path. But the Warriors Path is a long stretch of path that connected the Iroquois Confederacy to the Cherokees and basically man there were times and seasons when they just went to war. It's like, oh, September one, Tomahawks boys and they just went down to their the you know, their rivals territory and just raised Caine. I mean. So they called it the Warriors Path because that was the middle ground where

where they passed through. So the other thing that it was called by white people was the Wilderness Road. So if you were standing in the Cumberland Gap, are you on the wilderness Road? Yes you are. But the Wilderness Road went from Virginia maybe even up into Pennsylvania, and went down through the Cumberland Gap and into Kentucky and

then back up even into Ohio. As I understood it, so Wilderness Road Warriors Path Wasioto deer path, and it was it was later called Boone's Trace because in seventeen seventy five n went back through and was the first guy with machetes and hatchets and men, saws, horses, to cut a trail through the Cumberland Gap, and after that they called it Boone's Trace, so a lot of different names. And then the Highway se and then Highway twenty five and then why didn't they just take I forty man?

I mean they could have come down like low and just miss this whole deal. So, I mean, you know, what, have you looked at it on topo mapp think about that? But as a history student, you know, I go home and study. You know, there's a lot of stuff I want to know. So you know, it's it's intriguing the way your history teaching is. It gets you really curious. I want to know how high the Cumberland Gap was compared to the rest of the mountains, how far they

traveled through? You know, why didn't they go south? Why? You know, I mean the Cumberland Gap is feet in elevation, and it's it's not the highest point that's his highs mountains around here around Oh no, it's it's not. They're not. Yeah, you get the idea that like if if it was this impenetrable barrier, that it was like these huge ten thousand foot rocky mountains. Now the coume Ber the mountain I think is like in the two thousand foot range. But it wasn't just in and Robert Morgan said this.

It wasn't just a physical barrier. It was a geopolitical barrier because they were in the in the accent and pronunciation, did you hear me? Pronunciation? He said they were for bad to go across the mountains. Anybody catch him saying that they were for bad? Man he pulls out some old english man. That guy is the coolest guy, one of the coolest guys I've ever met. Um. But yeah, so that was that was the place where they couldn't go because it was French territory and Indian territory. And

so it wasn't just that it was mountains. But the other thing, when you're restricted by your feet, a horse and a wagon and carrying supplies back in there, all of a sudden, the two thousand foot mountain that runs for two hundred miles is a pretty big barrier, you know, Hey, Steve Ronilla's portion, Yeah, when Steve was talking about death and how closely acquainted the people back then where with death, And tell him the story of Daniel Boone coming back

through his son's remains. I think that really stuck out to me and that was really good as well. Yeah, I just thought I thought, it's it's it is. What he said there is that we do tend to underestimate how much death impacted these people, and you can do

that either way. And I think both stories about the deaths that happened there that when he said that, when Taylor Keing said the part about imagine ninety five out of a hundred of your family members, and when Steve Ronilla kind of gave the narrative of of Daniel Boone going back and holding his son, that was I thought was really powerful and it really human I is every really humanized him. Yeah. Man, see, I finished up episode three today, so I'm thinking episode three shouldn't wait till

you hear Oh man, it's it's it. It to me is my favorite one because it really humanizes Boon because we basically do clean up and tell all these stories about him. Some of it involves his family, a lot of it involves his later life, but I think it really puts a bow tie on his life and you kind of seeing him as human. And yeah, I think the part about his family, and of course I live with you. And this has sort of been plays life for a little bit now, and he's he's shared a

lot of these stories. But I think it's important for people to hear about Daniel Boone the family man and what what that that that version of what y'all think about historical revision or relativism. Do you think we handled that early? Definitely? I think you handled I mean, without

a doubt. It seems like even in Daniel Boone, like in the subsequent just decades right after him, revisionism was happening because they're using this mythical character that kind of became Daniel Boone to write and broadcast the narrative we gotta go west, we gotta do this. And so it's not like historical revisionism just started in the last decade. We've always been doing that. We're just maybe what about

going back and looking at really bad stuff? That's that That was the point of what I was saying was that at the end of the podcast was you know, because the cancel culture of today is you find anybody that has any tarnish in there in their life and then you go cancel them. And today, if you if you did some of these egregious things. We're doing it right now. In a hundred years from now, they're going to be going can you believe what they were doing

back in two thousand and twenty. I mean, look at I think, I think you'll handle it very well. But you know, to me, it's a it's but it's there's a lot of hypocrisy in that in my opinion, because it's so easy to pick on the other guy. Well, if you trace your genetics back, guess what your great, great, great great your bloodline was doing that, and if you had been there, you'd be doing the same thing. It's what I think, So you can cut that out. Well,

that's that's that's just it. It's like, if you go back very far anywhere, you're gonna find egregious things because humanity has been on a track of I mean, in many ways you could say upward movement. There's some parts of the place that we've cleaned up. But we've got two girls in college now, and these are the types

of conversations we've had a lot. It's our oldest was here this year and she would go into history classes and come out and we would talk about sort of the take and how the professors were handling all of all of history now because it's a tricky time to

teach things. And and we talk a lot about cancel culture because I think that that that idea that we just evaluate people by their worst, the worst version of themselves, the worst aspect of themselves, and never given opportunity for recovery, which we have no choice with these people who have been dead for a hundred years. I think are as a as humans and as in our family, we want

to be merciful. We want to be people because mercy has been extended to us, and so we want to always and we want our kids to have a growth mindset about life that you can always improve, and and that cancel culture really shuts that down because you are judged and and it's current. I mean, people that are living are being canceled, and some of them you know, probably deserve and should have never been famous, never should

have been you know known. But but the idea that you can't people can't change is such a tragic idea and such a I mean, it hinders any actual progress or growth from happening. So I think it's a real toxic mindset, and I think that's the importance of saying, let's tell all of the story, and both stories and all sides, because you can't judge a person by one aspect of their life, and you can say that's wrong. What they did here was wrong, and in in this

with what we know now, we shouldn't do that. And surely there should have been some things that people should have never done. It's fair to say that is wrong and that should have been wrong back then as well. That that being true, I think that there's a real tendency right now to just shut people, cancel people out of of history because it doesn't match your what the standards we have now. I think it's a I mean, you said you're very passionate about identity, and cancel culture

is essentially a faulty way of doing I didn't. It's a very convenient way to do I didnity. I can look at a person and if anywhere in their past or any connections and there, you know, doings they have these certain things, I get to just write them off. Um, but that's a very faulty way of doing identity because all of I mean, who does not have something in their past or back to what Gary, nothing I know

all about it, Oh my gosh, because it's convenient. We don't do it because it's right, and it takes out the hard work of growth, and it doesn't provide an opportunity for people to change and to say, there's no incentive I did wrong. I'm so sorry. And that's such a powerful humility, such a powerful place, and a powerful opportunity to have. The other side is that these people are they're dead. They don't have the opportunity to say

wow with this new information. I realized that when you've got when you've got one book and one chapter written about you, and we're making gross assumptions about someone's life without their ability to explain, it's it's a little too easy. Even after hearing Clay's own testimony about the heart behind his rooster treatment, I'm still canceling. People change, People change. Hey, I don't do that, no more, not yet yet much.

Oh well, hey, this has been really good. Guys. You know I had somebody right in and say I can't make up my mind if I love it or hate it. Every time you call him Dan during podcast, by legitimate internal controversy, you have once again polarized the nation. Oh man, gall you ain't talked about Pickles Gap. Pickles Gap, Yeah,

North Conway. They got saltwater taff in chickens. Hey. The only negative thing about them rewilding the Cumberland Gap is apparently there was a real famous, cool, old uh like pit stop gas station up there somewhere right around the Cumberland Gap. That was somebody else tell me what it is. But it was like, you know, scooters or spank E's or something, and it was like a hill billy hang out. It was a story. Well, hey, good render guys. Um yeah,

episode three and we're done. We're done, We're out with the half. I'm I'm grieved though, I really am, I really am. I As I wrote this last one, I just it's like I wanted to stay. I wanted to stay here, but uh what we got move on other topics. Oh, and you know what the thing is is that you can't listen to three hour and ten minute long podcasts and thank you really have the scoop on dB. We got a fourth nickname here, d. There's there's so much. There's so much, and so I hope that it catalyze

people to you know, get Mr Morgan's book. And there's tons of other good. There's all the Boone biographies, you know, there's this new one. I'll mention this new one. There's one out right now by Tom Clavin, Blood and Treasure. I've got it. Uh. The John mac ferreger one is probably right behind um Boons as known as a really good one. Um. This one's brand new. This one came

out just this year. But anyway, I would highly suggest though, uh, the my father Daniel Boone, the Liman Draper, papers papers Man. That now, that is when it gets real when you start reading Nathan Boone talking about his Danny. But all right, guys, thank you so much. Keep the wild places wild because that's where Daniel Boone killed bears and stuff. Traveling music, please