Ep. 164: BEAR GREASE [RENDER] - Plott Hound Analysis & Ken’s Reward

My name is Clay Nuckleman. This is a production of the bear Grease podcast called The bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by FHF Gear American Maid, purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed

Movie, Michael, don't remember that?

The American Dream?

American Dream? Yeah, with with Tom Cruise and Bill Clinton and drugs and the airport and everything. Yeah. Hey man, I just don't know. You might have had something to do with that.

I didn't say it was suspicious. What I said was I watched the movie put two and two together and text Brint and I said, Hey, I don't know Clay's daddy, but wasn't he a banker in Miena at this time? How many banks are in Mina?

There were a lot apparently.

Uh, well, welcome to the bear Grease Render. Man, I've been excited about this ever since I knew who was going to be here. We have multiple I would say, multiple new er Ish voices. I have. To my left, Brent Reeves, Brent, good to see. I want to talk about Okay, We're gonna go around the room and I'm going to tell each of you what I would like to talk to you about, and then we're going to come back to you. Brent. I want to talk to you about Kin's Reward Brent's podcast. This week, we talked

As far as as far as I know, King King City of the Ozarks is up for grabs. So I don't know what you're grasping about. We're just saying we're the second best.

Yeah, yeah, you can. You should call yourself the runner up city of It's pretty good.

There's a lot of cities in the Ozarks.

From the runner up city in the Ozarks, Isaac Neil to Isaac's left, Michael Roseman, Hello, Man, Michael. So, Michael Dad, he owns Operates, He's the engineer, he's the lead man, dishwasher, dishwasher at sun Spot Coonlights. So the coon lights that we sell on mediator dot com that me and Brent use, the big high powered coon lights. This is the this is a man behind it. So yes, yeah, and so what I want to talk to Michael about later is

I was like, I traveled for three weary days by Mule and Donkey. We're talking.

We're talking physical distance because I thought there was personal growth or something.

Like Yeah, there's always personal growth when you're traveling with the terrier patients.

Oh you got your dog with you?

Yeah?

Yeah, I got tough with me.

Okay.

Cool.

You came from Indiana, yes, the northwest Arkansas yep. Great. Well, okay, boys, we're going to talk to Chris about this newly proposed it's gonna get serious Colorado legislation that's designed to shut down mountain lion hunting with hounds in the state of Colorado. So Chris is kind of he's he's stayed up to date on that, and we're going to introduce that and talk about it the world. We're going to come back to that. So thank you so much for coming.

That was my pleasure.

Yeah, man. And then to your left believe or Nukem. Did you hear your name come up on the podcast?

Nailed it?

Brother?

I'm I'm I'm excited about this episode. It's been a while since we've done a documentary style podcast. We've been doing stories for ten weeks. So you know, if you're new to this, if this is your first every time to tune into the Bear Grease podcast. Our render is when we talk about the documentary style podcast that we do,

I wish Mystery was here because the.

Way this works, Dad is Brent, we'll be driving somewhere. He told me the story of Ken's.

Reward years ago, Yeah, a long time ago.

And I was like, dude, you need to figure out a way to tell that story on This Country Life. So if you haven't heard it, which, go back and listen to it. Brent had Brent's dad bought him a horse, yea from a sale in Ada, Oklahoma.

Yep.

How old were you, Brent?

Oh, let's see, I would have probably in nineteen eighty eight. I'd have been twenty two.

Where it's twenty two years old. His dad and his best friend go to horse sale in Ate, Oklahoma and get a great deal on a pure bred American quarter horse that was supposedly a horse.

Yeah, and then he couldn't buck. They said he wouldn't buck good enough, so they made a cow horse up.

They wanted him for a bucking horse.

Yep, that's what.

They made him into. A roping horse.

Yep, they made him into a You got to hear.

Him tell the story.

You did.

You did a good job of telling the story. And but the but the but the whole podcast was about animal names, like why do we name animals the way we do? And he it's a mystery why this horse was named Ken's Reward because you know, he ends up doing a lot of trouble with the horse.

Yeah, it was not he was not conducive to what what I wanted him to do. And what I wanted him to do was be able to get on him and ride him and get off of him without having to are Yeah, without any type of medical personnel involved in it. I just wanted to get on a horse and go from point A to point B. It sounds simple, and then come back and both of us be happy. And that just it didn't work out.

That was it didn't work out with Ken's Reward. No, here's what we're gonna do. Here's what we're gonna do. If you are in agreement with it, We're putting out an APB across the bear grease world if somebody can legitimately tell us and verify where, like who owned Ken's Reward and what the story was. All we know was that in nineteen eighty eight it was bought at a horse selle in eight, Oklahoma, and it supposedly came from Texas.

And I saw the papers. It is an absolute one registered American quarter horse. I saw the papers and his name was Ken's Reward, ky E n apostrophe s Reward. Okay, that was it.

Whoever can get us in touch with Ken, yeah, or should should Ken no longer be with us? Ken's Ken? I will give you one of these, a genuine Arkansas plot treed coonskin hat, land Bridge spillmaker. Yeah, for a plot to tree a coon. Yeah, that's rare.

I tell you what I'll do. I'll sweeten the pot. I'll throw in a case mini trapper pocket knife.

Okay, it's the deal. Now. It's hard to ride out Like, we're not lawyers here, but it's really got to be a genuine, like verifiable lead where we could talk to someone and get some sense of why this horse was named Ken's Reward? Any holes in this planned, Chris.

I don't see any. I'm looking at the hat. I mean it's that coonskin cap, right, there's legit. We know what a mini trapper is. I mean, somebody's just got to come up with the right info.

Are there any loopholes though, Dad? Like, could someone like liars?

Yeah?

I mean, but it's gonna We're gonna have to talk to Ken. Now. Somebody had to be pretty good to pull the wool over our eyes.

Yeah, okay, is this is this Ken's Rewards Reward?

That's it, right, I have seen the papers and you don't need to disclose it here. But do you know how that horse was bred? No, okay, I don't. I don't remember. It's one of the verification things out the window right there.

I don't. I don't remember, but I'll tell you what I have. I've thought about a million times, and I didn't have a young and in the world when I had that horse. Since then, I've had three. And every time I helped them with a school project that involved glue, I fantasized about me squeezing ken out on a piece of paper. Oh yeah, that's where he wound up.

Wow.

But that's dark.

That's really saying something.

I'm just telling you. You tried to kill me.

That is pretty dark.

I feel like I be remiss to not point out that you're halfway to be in a long hunter. By the time you get that hat and that knife, you're just missing a set of buckskins.

And that is a great I'm glad you're reminded me.

That was.

What we're going to talk to Clay about today is me and Steve Vanella and a team at Meat Eater. One of those team members was Randall Williams, doctor Randall, Doctor Randall. We talked about it this week, but we've come out with an audio original. It's essentially an audio book about the Long Hunters and it's it's available for pre sale. Did you see that dad on the internet? Do you get on the internet much? Yeah?

Internet, We've we've done a terrible job of marketing.

Is on the internet right now.

This week meat Eater announced our audio book called The Long Hunters seventeen sixty one to seventeen seventy five by Steve Vanella Clay Nukeomb narrated by Steve Vnellen Clay Nukemb. And it is never before compile data on the Long Hunters. I mean, I'm serious, there has never before been this data crunched together in such a compact way. I mean, it's incredible and it's really cool. And so you can pre order that now through Penguin Random House, through the

Put a link in the description.

Yeah, So I'm very excited about that. It was a ton of fun. So basically it's it's me and Steve Vanella kind of going back and forth in this audio book and h really cool.

So I can tell you one thing about the Internet is every time I even turn around, Brent Reeves comes up going this country life and I'm going to back off, man. I mean, I got I gotta look for yours. I mean, I gotta go. Come on, Clay, I need, I need to watch this. And all of a sudden, on the bear Grease feed. Yeah yeah, I just you know when I go to when I go after it, this guy's got the product.

He's playing it. Yeah, yeah, they're they're they're feeding you. Brent Reeves. Come on, yeah, Michael, you're tell us about your new light. So let me let me go back. Already said it before, but I have been in multiple showdowns with big game hunters that thought they had a good light.

Never lost, did you?

Never?

You won't coon.

Hunters win the light game every time? Am I right?

Chris?

I mean for real, I've been in hunting camps and been like, somebody shine their light and I'd be like, that's a cute light, and and they're like, oh this is this is the best light ever, and and I'll step outside and shine them. And the thing coon hunters don't have the market on much. Let me put it that way. The one thing coon hunters have the market on is bright lights that last a long time. And I use my son's spot light all the time. I take it on back country hunts, I take it off

Over one hundred hours so you could.

Literally leave it on in your bag for a week.

Yeah, yeah, four days, four or five days.

Yeah, I mean that's pretty incredible. What about candle power? Do you still use candle power?

Is there some other so? Yeah, they do, But it's the metric it's lux is what we go by. Yeah, so a lot of people that look at lights, they want the first question they ask you is how many lumens does it have? And that's not really a measurement that's useful for us. Lumens is a measurement that comes from the factory. So it's how much that LED can output with this much current put on it, and it's that's total light. That's light that's lost in the reflector,

Is, not reality limit it is.

It is, but not in not in the way that we use it. So but that's the way that the industry in like Walmart and the smaller little stuff that's they advertise lumens because that can be verified. So I have a cre led, it has this much current put to it. To Cree says, you have this many looms. Lux, like you're talking about a Candlepower is how much throw that light has so how far it's gonna shine, And that's what we call brightness.

So you can have to LEDs with the same lumins, but if you put a different reflector on there.

Yes, that you use, so the lux is more of a real world lux.

How much light you have throw of the light lumins is actually how much light you have coming out of it. But there's no way to measure that. This is what he's saying is depending on the optics that you use for it, you can have a thousand lucks. These light bulbs are lumins. I'm sorry. These light bulbs have a high lumin value to them, and they just softly light up your light your room, so it doesn't do you

Okay, Finally, I've been using these lights forever and I have heard him talk about this a thousand times. Finally understand it.

It's low throwback on that is I was headed across forty and boom, there's a night like score off the I like squealed tires getting off the road because when I started hunting, night like light was it. They came out with a six volt gel cell and then they I had one of those for a while, and then they put the strobe on it and I don't know that it did anything. It doesn't do any It doesn't do anything, but it was cool.

That was designed to make a coon look at your eyes and you clicked it it.

Yeah, so you push the button on top of the wrist at and boom, had start flashing and you think that he's gonna look now. The only thing it did was melcher meltry wrist at down starts smoking on your side.

The night light was the first real coon hunting light I ever had. The only thing I had before that. We carried a truck battery in a backpack with this giant spotlight that they used to make it was called a sunspot. Really, that's where the name of that. You have the game ward and took it from me.

But that's another star.

Store.

You bought me a night light. When I was in the ninth grade, we used to have those big belt used to have to carry battery packs to have those big thick belts. I still got it. It was the It was the industry standard back in the day. Now the lights are way better, way brighter, way smaller, way lighter.

The only thing in this world that is increased in functionality and quality and decreased in price.

Wow, Now there's a cell.

Yeah, that's it. I mean I used to pay four or five six hundred dollars for some of these belt lights and they were literally maybe a fifth is bright is what we do now, and you're paying three hundred dollars for a light now that lasts longer, is brighter.

So your light now, this is not like a sales pitch. I you know, there's people and I'm one of those people that if I like something, I'll talk to people on the street about it. I'll be like, you know, I mean like I want you to like and if you don't, if you don't like it, I'm offended. Like I'm like, well, god the man. No, coonlights is one of them. And there's a lot of good coonlights, don't get me wrong. I mean there's there's there's plenty of them.

Ten dollars for return shipping and that's it. It's the only thing. We don't covers damage, and we cover that most of the time. Yeah, depends on how bad.

I mean, this is not a throwaway.

No you ever find yourself sunspots consider one of the top lights in the Yeah, in the country and in my community for sure.

Yeah, you ever find yourself just putting on the helmet to go out to grocery shop or something, just so you.

Have a okay you're on. When you're on a competition coon hunt, tell me if this is right or wrong.

I know where you're headed.

When you're on a competition coon hunt and you stop at a gas station and you got four guys in a cast in a cab of a truck, maybe you know them, maybe you don't. And you go to a gas station, everybody wears their coon light into the gas station.

Where you thought I was gonna go, well kind of ok. I've done that multiple times. You leave the house hunting or whatever, and you got to stop the gas station, get a pop, get a can, at you whatever, and you got your hip boots on and your coon light on your vest on and people are looking at you like what is he doing? I didn't know.

Somehow when you're in a competition hunt, like it's okay. Like if I went to Walmart, I just walk in there with my and my big light on. But what were you where do you think I was going on that?

Was it the other gas station store?

For sure?

Yeah? For sure?

Coon Lights. So y'all come out with a new Copperhead.

Yeah, we come out with a new light. We dropped two nights Adults called the Copperhead comparatible to our other lights. It's brighter, smaller, lighter weight than our Viper, which was our topy en light, Smaller than the Viper, lighter weight, wrider, all the same functions, and it's a slick looking light.

I like it. I like it. Okay, we're just marching around here. Uh, Chris, Yeah, we're I'm on a mission, man. I want to talk about I want to talk about this, the story of the plots.

War my shirt for you.

Yeah, he's got the American Plot Association shirt on.

It was either this one or not a game Warden T shirt.

Yeah, dad, Chris is a retired game warden.

Yeah.

I talked to one of our friends. They got there. I talked to one of our mutual friends just yesterday, Chris, and uh, well, no, no, no, no, no, no, you told me this story. One of our mutual friends introduced you when you went bear hunting with them in East Tennessee. He would introduce you as this is Chris pal he's a former game warden from Indiana.

Oh yeah.

And Chris kind of got embarrassed about it, like saying, hey, you don't have to say that, And the guy was like, trust me, I don't want these guys to find out later that you are a former game warden. He said, they'll they'll they won't trust you. Is that about the way it happened.

That's exactly the way it happened.

You know. It's like, since when do we have to walk around and this is this is Clay nukemb he works at meat Eater, This is Gary Nukeum. He was a retired banker. You know, it's like, oh, this is a game warden and that, and we're going to introduce him like that. It's like being a preacher.

You know.

I never introduced my preacher. It's like, hey, this is so and so he's my preacher. I mean, it's like sending out the warning don't don't.

Come, don't come, don't color show.

So yeah, I used to get introduced like that.

Yeah, he was doing it for your as a favorite to you though.

I think, uh, I think he was really good at pivoting on the moment and and coming up with that. But I do think that I do think it was for his benefit. Yeah, he wasn't bringing a game warden to the mountain.

He's like just full disclosure here, yeah, full disclosure, Yeah, full disclosure.

Yeah.

You know some of my favorite Bear Grease stories were about game wardens.

Yeah.

I mean they just go down as the top notch stories.

Man.

I loved it. Yeah.

Yeah, that seems to be the consensus of the world. Yeah, because some of our best episodes were low Dell and Charlie and then The Secret Agent man.

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Yeah. Yeah, Chris tell it. Give us like a high level view what's going on in Colorado?

Yeah, so we're gonna get serious.

Huh yeah, all right, Well, I'll.

Tell you what's happening.

And we're seeing science based responsible wildlife management being hijacked in the state of Colorado through it's called Initiative ninety one, and it's been introduced. It went through the what's called the title board hearing, where they've got to make sure that the labeling is right. An Initiative ninety one is going to be a ballot initiative where the public gets to vote on this issue of wildlife management and it pertains directly to mountain lions and bobcats, and they threw

There're links in Colorado.

There are links in Colorado, really, so they just threw that one on the pile just to just to add to the sensationalism, even though you still can't hunt them.

So, yeah, you can't hunt them now.

No, no, you can't hunt them now. So what does that need to be there?

You know, because it's an animal on the endangered species list that when the people are voting, oh you look it up, they say, oh yeah, we definitely won't let it.

It's totally totally sensationalized. But what's happened is some groups have gotten together in Colorado and put this on the back or put this forward, have got approval for it to be moving forward and be introduced to the ballot next year. So they've still got to go through signature acquisition and things like that. Right now it's in the Supreme Court, and basically that's just making sure that all the eyes are dotted and all the teaser crossed and

Tax us, Yeah, please tax us.

So we've got a big investment in this thing, and the anti hunting crowd is trying to flip the narrative and divert us away from science based and responsible wildlife management, make it a political weapon and based it.

On almost who is doing this.

There are a couple of local groups in Colorado that are that are leading the charge on this. Yeah, that it hasn't been revealed yet, but we're pretty confident that that there are some larger, more well funded groups.

That they've got a lot of money and are waiting. I mean, this is a very well funded thing for for Initiative ninety one. Is that correct that you have to.

Be seen you're talking which side.

Well not our side?

Yeah?

Yeah, I mean they're gonna what was the time? Tell me the timeline. So when give me a timeline of like when are the when are they signing the Well.

Right now, it's it's been introduced to go to the Colorado Supreme Court and that's expected to be heard sometime in January to make sure all the legalities and you know.

Make sure the law is it works, and.

Then the cons the people to vote on Yeah, when does it go win?

Does it? Yeah?

Next November in the twenty twenty four election. So between that time, you're going to have a period of time where you're gonna have to have signatures to make sure they meet the ballot requirements for the required number of signatures for it to appearental ballot. There are gonna be lawsuits. There are gonna be Then there's gonna be a campaign time when when both sides of we as hunters are going to launch a campaign, the anti hunters are going

Is the main guy what's the guy's name that we were talking about.

Yeah, the guy the spearhead and the whole efforts out there is Dan Gates. And he is the head of an organization called Colorado Colorado's for Responsible Wildlife Management, and a lot of different entities are coming together to back him and and he's been working this state.

For this was coming. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I mean Colorado is right for it. It's the demographics. There are right big.

Urban cities with most of the population.

And then the to give you an idea, I saw a slide on that that was put together in a presentation while I was out in Colorado a month or so ago. There are five point eight million people in the state of Colorado. Five point two million of those live on the Front Range and the Denver Boulder, that metroplex. Yeah, five point two million. That leaves six hundred thousand people living out in the sticks that understand ranching, wildlife management and things like that.

Yeah, so it's gonna.

Be it's it's it is the Battleground State for Wildlife Management twenty twenty four.

Yeah, you'll be hearing more stuff from us and some specific calls to action at different times, but Yeah, we're we're gonna do our best at bear Grease and meat Eater to get the word out and because I mean, people that are listening to this podcast are gonna know why we're against and you know, closing down the season, why we're for predator management.

I mean it, I wouldn't even have to go, I wouldn't even try to try to pigeonhole. It is a predator management. This is an outright attack on science based wildlife management.

Yeah, and not just the predator control. So from what I understand, and I don't big game hunt with hounds, but from what I understand that the cat hunters are basically responsible for saving mountain lions.

That's a great point because if you were not for the houndsmen that were out there catching mountain lions, organizations like Colorado's Parks and Wildlife would not be able to collect the data. There's so much that goes into a mountain lion study. You know, you catch it, you dart it, you collar it. You can collect all that data. You can find out their home ranges, you can find their kills on ungulant species. You take the bones from those

Yeah, and just the general idea too, that a hunted animal has cultural value, and where an animal has cultural value, it will ultimately be protected by the people that want to hunt always. And so you know, there's nobody in Colorado that wants more mountain lions than mountain lion hunters. You got that right, I mean, but we also know that predator numbers. What's happening continental wide is that predator

You can't compromise, it can't be you can't give up, and you can't give up one inch. Yeah, because they will not satisfy them. Yeah, you can't say okay, okay, okay, yeah, I'll just we'll just do this and that'll be the end. Of it. It won't be the end of it.

There is nothing that they do that is not with intent. Everything they do is purpose driven. It's the reason they came to Colorado is because of the population dynamic there and Andy.

The reason they could win.

The reason they come after Mountain Lions is because it mainly affects houndsmen, and so houndsmen historically have been very loosely organized, very even like you alluded to, being looked at on the fringe. I mean, you can't even get you can't even get bear hunters or anybody to come together to say that, all of them to say that, hey man, you guys are hunting with hounds, go for it. You know, we even get snipe from inside the hunting community.

So so, but I think that's changing.

Yes, I do too believe that.

I think we're gaining a lot of ground there. So it was just go back to the art of you know, the art of war with sun sou. These people know what they're doing and they're coming after the weakest link. And what we need from the hunting community as a whole is like Brent said that we stand together other and we say no. It's like, you know, it's like a family. It's like a family reunion. You don't get

And that's that's what I think we've seen in the last seven eight years is more of the general hunting community coming around the hound and predator community and saying, hey, this is a big part. This is a part of the family, and we're concerned because what we've always said is that if you're a deer hunter in Missouri, if you're a turkey hunter, if you're you know, this matters to you. Like if if the whole of North American hunting, and we don't realize that we're in the heyday of

Now.

We're not trying to be hard nos or jerks about it. I mean, we're we're just saying, hey, this is just this is just who we are as Americans. There is a place inside of our society where the hunters reside. You don't have to be a hunter. We love wildlife. If you you in general people in America love wildlife and wild places. Well, guess who does too, the hunters. We're the ones who are funding wildlife habitat conservation across the country. We're all on the same team. You want hunters.

We have, we have hunted, we have we have This generation of hunters has inherited one hundred and fifty years of conservation work, right, I mean you think about that. We are the benefactors of Teddy Roosevelt, and yeah, uh you know, you know, all these guys that built this and now we're enjoying it all. And it's like, I'm a deer hunter and I got my pile. I'm an elk hunter and I got my pile. I'm a houndsman and I got my pile. Man, We're not going to

Yeah. So, yeah, that this is all really great and and uh it's just an invitation to for the whole hunting community to rally around this thing.

I so, can I tell people where to find more informational updates? Ye, so if you go to Save the Hunt Colorado dot org. Okay, then you can get updates on what's going on with the initiative ninety one.

Uh.

You can also go to our website at hounsmanexp dot com. You know, scroll we're dropping a lot of content on this sort of stuff, and you know, just reach out to me if you if you're concerned about it and you're looking, say, man, this is this is a good fight. I want to get in it. Just contact me through a website at Hounsman XP dot com.

And there's a bunch of groups that are going to be doing a lot. Absolutely, I'm a big fan of howl dot org. The guys at how they're working, I think they're doing doing a good job of getting stuff out.

Origin Blood is another.

One all these groups. I mean, uh, Sportsman's Alliance big time.

Yes, I'm glad you brought them up. Yeah, of course. But c r w M is going to be the place that we need to get this money too. So that's where I would tell you.

To go first, go to the bigger army.

I mean, if you just say this is war, you know it'ses versus China.

Who who's who's the probable win or Well, I think.

If you're talking funding, then I believe that that the anti hunting crowd is got more dedicated funds to fight this today.

However, if you.

Look at the amount of money that hunting produces, then that's one of the biggest things that that you're your person that's a non hunter that's got to make a decision in Colorado, who's going to fund this wildlife next year? If we outlawed this year, who's going to fund it next year? It's not gonna be the humane side of the United States or Center for Biological Diversity or Friends

You know, if you com communicate the way you have communicated, I mean, you win. But you've got a gullible populace out there that could care less about it, and they just read it and go it sounds like a good idea.

I would be one of them.

Well I look at that five minutes. I'd go, yeah, man, get rid of it.

Well that's that's one one of their So you got to be I mean, they.

There their line.

They tried to push this thing through a sensational narrative, like talking about trophy hunting. Well, Clay, you do an outstanding job of defending trophy hunting. I mean I've watched you do it on Joe Rogan. I mean you turned it around on On Rogan and explain it to me. But that's part of it, and and that language has been taken off of it. But they were they were trying to redefine what hunting actually is. And that's the most that's the most important thing that affects all hunters.

Well, there's gonna be a whole lot more coming about it. But that's the business. This is the boardroom. That was the business we need to take care of. And uh, thanks for thanks for giving us the details crawl. Yeah, now that we're gonna have a lot more about that kind of stuff. The podcasts Pure Americana. Let me start off. I said, Chris would understand this. This is a pretty

Actually, this is.

So, this is so beneficial to the plot hound Yeah, origins and everything. I mean, they just took a little area like this and exploded it all through Bear grease.

People are going to buy books, people are going to talk about this.

You know you Clay's been foreshadowing what a great podcast he's got coming up, and I turned it on.

I thought dead gum plot hems, You thought I.

Don't care about plot app but I mean it was an awesome deal and and I tell you it, it was really good and I think everybody will really enjoy it.

It was a big deal, just like you said. But at first glance, a plot town man, I don't need no thinking plot down. But it's a it's a now you want one as a It's a human story, it's a family story, it's a history story. I don't think you offended anybody. Well, what I'm saying is in the plot community, like people are so opinionated and so just it's it's it's they get attached to a narrative and

The team picked out? I can't tell you that.

What Chris, what did you think?

What?

What?

What was like the most? This is all stuff you'd be very familiar you you hunt plots.

Oh yeah, yeah, plot historian. Though, I thought the your selection of having Bob Plott, who is a descendant of the Plot family, who's heard these stories his whole life, and he's dove into, you know, finding out the stories. His books for his books.

That there's a book I'm holding that striking state. It really is a fascinating book.

Bob.

Bob's a real pro when it comes to history. And the main the coolest thing about this book is all the photos. Yeah, look at that, Brent.

It's uh, it needs to be in every Hounceman, every hunter's collection, really, I mean it's just.

Look at some of those pictures.

And then John Jackson. John Jackson has been writing plot history for for decades, you know, and very well spoken. I really like the way you described me, a true Southern Mountain gentleman. Yeah, and that's that describes John to a t.

Yeah, he was. Uh, that was the first time I'd met John a new John had communicated with him some with Bearhunting Magazine, he had written some stuff for us. But he is like a yeah, a classic Highland Southern gentle way I described him, just very proper, very articulate, but deeply passionate. Like h We went down and I recorded a bunch of this stuff, but I just wasn't

Was disappointed. What's that? I was disappointed?

You were disappointed, like John, like we said, I hate to disappoint you.

Oh yeah, I was disappointed.

He was melancholy when he talked about it too.

Okay, here's the deal. I read Bob Plot's book and knew Bob Plot I'd heard the story from. Actually, Steve Hurd is the one who introduced me to the the original story. Steve heard is a breeder of a strain of plots called Bluff Creek Plots. It's the kind of dogs I've hunted. And Steve was the first one that ever introduced me to plots, really, and he told me the story just just like on a phone call.

He's like years ago, stepping off the Mayflower.

About the two brothers. One of them guys that bring five dogs. Two of them or or three of them are brindle. One of them's two of them are yell or whatever, and I was like, wow, that's incredible. When I go to John Jackson, who is a plot historian, I go to his house and I expect him to just tell me that story, and he immediately he did such a good job. He was like Johannis plot. He just like fed me in. Then he goes, cy, I hate to disappoint you, and I don't think that happened that.

Well, I think there's one big point here that I found fascinating about the whole podcast, and that is I'm less interested in what was true in terms of a historical sense and more interested in the fact that there was one family that cared enough about this thing to hand down this tradition from one generation to the next.

And that's what John Jackson said. He was like, he basically said, the story there, you know, either way, even the story if that didn't happen, he said, is as

Right?

In the same way that our last conversation was a conversation about like to some degree, like what are humans like when we're having these conversations about conservation and wildlife management? We want to remove humans from that system, right, But that's a luxury that's only happened in the last one hundred and fifty to two hundred years. We're a part of the system. Us growing up in this world and learning to hunt, learning to interact with animals. We're an

Right.

That's exactly right, And that's what the anti hunters tried to tell us, is that we're not part of that system.

That's only a narrative that's developed in the last one hundred and fifty two hundred years. Because we've had the luxury to be removed from it.

And in the same.

Way, what's this got to do with plot bringing the only the only thing that's standing the way from me tying this together is you. In the same way, we look at oral narratives, oral histories and we look down on them. We we we were like, oh, well that's not reliable because it was oral, and it's like, that is the story of humanity. The only way we gave our histories for the last thousand, the millennia preceding us is an oral history, the only reason we have anything

Yeah, show me. It really was the head to head conflict, and it was how much weight does an oral story carry versus what was on a piece of paper on a cargo manifest.

Chris can tell you from a law enforcement perspective, before all these crazy CSI shows came on TV, how good was an eyewitness then who just saw something? Oh yeah, pretty reliable.

Now it's then you had dash cams, and then you had to have dash cam.

Then you had to have fingerprints, DNA and all that and a man's word.

Yeah, that's a good point. So maybe back in the thirties, nobody would have even been asking these questions.

Even in the early nineties before DNA and all this other stuff you watch. Getting back to what Brent said, when a police officer took stand and he testified to something, he had credibility in the courtroom, and the defense attorney's job was to discredit this law enforcement officer. And so that's why, and I know Brent's heard this, they'll they'll sit there and they'll say, instead of staying officer Reeves, you'll say, mister Reeves. Yeah, they'll try to discredit him.

Yeah, yeah, we see what you're saying, Brent. Is that, like, what more do we need? I mean again, this idea of a head to head between the actual data in facts that we have, which are important we need, and then an oral story, because what's compelling is that this plot family very quick. What we do know one hundred percent is that George Plot had a bunch of dogs that were unique to his to this part of the world, and he was he just came straight from Jerry.

What do you think, Michael, where they is there any documentation of a brindle hound in Germany?

Yeah?

There is there. There's a Hanna very Okay, that's a good point. There's a there is a breed of dog called Hannoverian Hounds, which and there is some brindle and docs AND's too. I'm told I.

Got a few questions. How do you spell johannas like Johannas? Okay?

So that now I'm gonna get onto Michael. What does this have to do what that?

What did you say when you what anglicized sized? All right? That would be anglicized to John, not George.

Well we're not arguing that you have to take that up with the plots?

Well, I know, and I'm not going to tell anybody their family story because I don't really have a clue. I'm just this is just my mind. If someone asked a question, this is where I'm going to go to. It was signed g Plot g Plot, not j Plot right, all right, So Johanna's probably wasn't the name on the boat.

Right, right?

And I mean that's what that's what John Jackson says.

Yeah, it was probably George. How does a boy that's by himself, that his brother just died land in a country where he has no money and no possessions and take care of five dogs and keep them alive.

All well.

But see, we don't know, we don't have any.

Any That's what I'm saying. I don't know if there's more to the story I'm not hearing, or how where this goes in my opinion. Let me let me ask you this too.

They might kill you, you know that don't live They Gary?

Where where's your where's the the nukelems from England? England? Okay?

Negative?

Scotland, Scotland, Scotland?

Okay? Do you think they come from somewhere other than Scotland? What I mean is before they got to Scotland, were they somewhere else?

Yeah?

Okay, mm hm, you can't make these dogs out here, saying from what I know from dog breeding. Out of five dogs, okay, So there is so much in the any hound, not just plot. You're calling them Americana, the same things with walker dogs, blue ticks, anything else. They got their body shape, their overall makeup from English hounds, long years European. Everything else was American. There's no tolls. How much of that.

Well, saying that's different about a plot than any other breed of the hound, says they are different, they're a different style of dog style.

But if you just look at them, they're a hound.

No, that's not true. Their ears are shorter, they're more of a flagtail and a traditional I do not believe, because the Appalachian people are way too pragmatic to not breed the five they're Yeah, if old Ship was a good bear dog, this dog that I'm calling a plots getting bread bread.

Dorschure, which makes some Americana, But that was my point. The same thing happened in blue ticks, English walkers. They were bred to curs. They were bread. The best squirrel dog I've ever seen in my life was half labbador and half chow. No kind of hound whatsoever, absolute tree and machine.

And you're saying that could have been.

I'm saying that they they There may be a little bit of German something in those dogs. But these hounds came what was mixed into them, come from Native Americans. They come from the Appalachian people that were already here. Yeah, And I don't see a difference in the plot story and walkers or black and tans.

Well, but okay, that but that's I could shoot some holes in that boat.

Uh No, But walkers, walkers.

And that photo right there, just like the walkers in your kennel. That's because they chose English.

That's because they chose a color to breed to, because walker dogs started out as English dogs. Okay, they were the same dogs as blue ticks, the same dogs as red ticks, and they chose that color pattern and bread for that coin.

I hear what you're saying, but you're not making your point very clear. What's your what's your? What's your? Just give me one sentence. You're saying that they came from the dogs that were all.

Of those hounds, hounds of Americana, every one of them. They all have the same story. The difference in them is that the plot hounds has one particular family that they go back to. The rest of them are overall, but the story of them is all the exact same.

Okay, let me ask you this, why Why are why does the plot I see what you're saying about the shape of a hound. I mean, I could give you that they're shaped about like a hound, but all blue ticks and even I mean the brindle. The brindle is different than any other English hound. Where'd that?

Yes?

Yeah, well I don't know. I got a French bulldog that that's brindle. I don't know right well, that probably come from the mixing of all these other dogs into that that were not hounds but had the traits that they were looking for. Or I told you had a lab and a chowd that would tree, so they would have they were pragmatic, they would have took anything that would improved their dogs and put that in.

So there's a case. And then I said it when I talked about and I'm not sure I used the correct term by saying that brindle was a recessive gene inside of all dogs. But I mean there are brindle boxers there. Brindle feist. My little feist out here is brindle. Brindle plots, brindle pitbulls like brendle is something. And that was my buddy, who's a big time plot man, is the one who brought that up to me. He was like, Clay, if you just mix a bunch of dogs together, it's

Don't think I think you can I think you can mix a lot of blue ticks together and you're never going to get brindle. Okay, So I think there is there was a brindle. Yeah, it was a concentration from the Plot family. I'm more of I latch on because I am a romantic and historian and I like the story of Johanna's Plot and that story.

I think he probably.

Came here with the intent of being a games keeper, you know, following his father's trade back in Germany. He was probably an indentured servant at the time, so he already had a place to go. He didn't need money. Somebody picked him up off that boat and brought him down there, and he had some dogs with him, and after he worked off his indentured servitude, he was also a man of means, you know, from getting money the Old World country, which the Plots were influential type people,

I'm with.

I'm with I don't think anybody's saying that, but that's like the exaggerated fairy tale version.

Yeah.

The reason that it's an Americana story is because of the deep, rich history. It's the first it's a North Carolina state dog. It's it's uh, you know, there's mountains named after the plot family. It just fits Americana. Yeah, but you look, you look at the Walker dog, and you can you can talk about George Washington, you know. So there's some some of they're not the same dogs. They're not the same dog, but they are the dogs where our tream Walkers came from. When you trace it backwards.

Brant, what, what about the whole story was most important to you?

Who came from the English? Fox?

Hu?

Yeah, but it was a black tank.

I don't have that conversation, Brence. What was the most saying that what stood out to you most? And you probably wouldn't have known that story much about it?

No, very little love it had I ever heard. But also the longer I listened to it, I could care less which story was true. What fascinated me was the family, and that's what is so it's so rich in it, and what's so American to me is they can trace it back to that family so far, and everyone was all in on these dogs, regardless of where they came from. Once they got it started, they stayed with it. And it was father and son and grandson and grandson and

Yeah, it wasn an awesome story. My favorite part of the whole thing good was when you were right with Bob in the beginning and he was saying, you know, they were here and this was his house. That was awesome. The story of them bringing those dogs in it, following them through history and the pride that they would have had is just awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had seven generations of the same females starting seven generations ago, and they were I mean, they were it for me and

That's awesome, you know, to me the most, like if you're talking about how the plot story is different and out that we're trying to say, it's better than I've had many people already say you should do one of these on the Walker breed, and I'm sure we could.

I mean, it's not as interesting though, well.

But that's what I think to me being in adult and I got into plots roughly nine years ago, that's kind of when I was introduced, so I was an adult and I just it's like my eyes popped open when I went and saw Roy Clark and Tracy and Ben Jones and Curtis Walker and who are some of the I mean Mark Defray up in Maine and Mark Dan Wagner and uh Ira Jones, Oh, can't forget Ira, Ricky Reinhart, all the guys that I know over there, and a bunch of people are going to get upset

Just I mean that was that was put through the lens of this is a geographic region that has been sort of a national joke, like those people look at they've got nothing, and to be like this thing that I can take pride in that comes from here, that is my thing and is now nationally recognized as the best at what it does. I think that that sort of incongruency or seeming incongruency.

You're foreshadowing into the next episode. She hadn't even heard it, I know for real. We talk about how that that these people didn't have much, but this is something they had. Yeah, they were valuable and that's why it became so valuable.

They were valuable enough to be to be hauled out to places like Oregon when the timber trade took off an Oregon. These apple Chians who have been cutting chestnuts and all this other stuff for generations. It's like, yeah, we can cut down big trees. When they went, they took their dogs. Yeah, you know that, And that's how the brindle dogs end up in the North.

Today the plot is all over. I mean, you go to Wisconsin and Michigan, they're big hubs.

James lived in Illinois.

He was a big coon hunter on big big game bread.

Some of the best big game dogs you got Salmon River dogs that Doc smith Out had had out in Salmon, Idaho.

Yeah.

Yeah, what Chris give me kind of like a tour of the plot plot geographically, can I mean, we're not gonna hit everybody, So if you're offended by this, and I'm sorry, but like my buddy, my dear dear friend of of our family, the Clarks and East Tennessee Laurel Mountain plots, who is his name? Some of them there's no way we can name them all.

Well, so you know, Everett Ever ended up taking you know, dogs and getting them in Illinois, and those were the wims Bread dogs. And then you had plots, you have Weams bread and then those turned into swampland dogs and Mike Colley's and then you got well swampland was Leroy Hogg in it. Indian Mike Coley ends up with the buy you caging plots that he's been breeding on for years. You've got, uh, the Houston Valley plots in eastern Tennessee.

Uh.

You get the Bluff Creek plots in Oklahoma or Kansas. You know, so it's it's it was one of.

Those deal Pocahontas and poc.

You've got the the Redwood plots that Jeff Coons kind of inherited from his uncle and and developed into highly skilled dogs. You got the Serge bread plots from Ohio Brandenburg. That was an older I.

Mean good enough. I mean just the point is is that white inside of the plot world, there's these little narrow channels and people just go nuts over them. I mean, people are looking for certain dogs, they are bred in certain ways, and just to the average person to be like it's just a plot, but there's there's these real specific things connected to real specific people, and it's it's like it's just kind of neat.

Do these dogs start to get different looks.

Yeah, you can.

If a real student of the plot breed, well we'll be able to tell. You know, branden Burger plots were a little bigger and a little houndier looking than what some other and a real good person better than I am, can walk through plot days and say, well, that's a you know, that's a Pocahontas, and that's a brand you know this.

Is they do have a Look.

Yeah, I love hounds, all of them. And I've never really paid much attention plots because there's not very many around here, but undeniably they have the best backstory of any of them.

Yeah.

Absolutely, there's none of the rest of these hounds. So you know, you have Blue Ticks with the Vaughans and and those guys, and you have the Walker Dogs with the Gettings up there, and there's there's several different but none of them have the type of story that a plot hound has.

Yeah. Yeah, that's what That's why I like them. Now what stood out to you just taking the whole story, like what surprised you? What? What what stood out? Well, it's amazing that a family name could be attached to those dogs for so long and and and I like to play the game of who's right? Was it the two boys coming from Germany? Was it George family coming over? So you made a compelling argument. You guys just really did a great job. My argument would be that this

Yeah, I trust oral, you know, Uh, they couldn't find documentation to support or but I mean, these are these are brilliant people, successful people. You don't see the new com name all over the world. I mean, these guys, there's something special about these plot people. And they're not going to pass down lies. I mean, oh, George boy Henry, Henry tells Monty, Monty tells, Yeah, John got it. I mean, and it goes up to your buddy Bob. That's not too far back.

Yeah yeah. You know, so you're you're saying it's not that they didn't just fabricate an outright lin Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, I admit that it could be the other way.

I mean, but well, that's a big question that has to be answered. Yeah, was there a family reunion when they're like back in the eighteen hundreds. Before they do, there's gonna be an internet or anybody's gonna care.

We hey, Moses wrote the Book of Genesis thousands years after the Garden Eden. So do you believe that or not?

There you go.

If you can't believe that, then the plot story probably didn't free you.

It's probably a little bit of both. Yeah, just like any other story that's probably a little bit of both.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and in all fairness to John or mister Jackson, John Jackson, I don't feel like he I felt like he was very measured in his response.

It was moral.

I could not find documents.

Yeah he wasn't.

He wasn't. Yeah, I don't.

I didn't feel like it was too antagonistic or aggressive.

Yeah, and no doubt. Well I tried to make it clear too that you know, one option would be that this family, just to go along with what you said, were so sharp, dominant, socially successful that maybe not even with intentionality, the plot name just got attached to them, right, And that's kind of what John Jackson says. And it wasn't like they did this as some kind of conspiracy.

Oh? Yeah, you see, you see what you're.

Saying, Like as if the plots came in and like swooped in to get all the glory for this thing.

Yeah.

And this guy was like no, he said, and he basically was like I think they got it. Honest.

Yeah, you know, you hear documentation of the other family going.

Hold up, this is the Jones dog.

I can tell you. I can tell you that even within an established breed, you know, breeding for trades, breeding for confirmation, breeding for color, and things like that, it's tough to do by yourself, even your own family. You're gonna need a network of people. Yes, so that would be a regional thing for Appalachia at the time. You know, there's other people in the community that need a bear dogs, and the plots had the dogs. But when it comes back to it, and now I've got to breed the

Yeah, and and and undoubtedly that happened.

And at some point it got to the point where, you know, Vaughn a few generations later, he already had his breed type. He already had his standard. Isaiah Kidd, all those guys, they all had that breed standard and stuff, and so they didn't breed outside of it. Their gene pool was big enough where they could stay within the breed type and.

Boom, boom boom. That just exploded.

Yeah, well it didn't explode, but there's still rare.

I was going to bring up. I had somebody, uh that got on to me for They said I bashed forward trucks. I said, it's like building a forward truck. We needed some overseas parts, but making America made and uh and they thought it was like a that like a punched afford.

Oh really, it was crazy.

I could have said anything. I could have used any single I thought it was funny though, that that was triggered. Yeah they were, Yeah, somebody was triggered on that. That was funny. Well, uh, what other thoughts? Yeah, this I have been working on this in ways for a long long time. I did those interviews two years ago, and I actually did.

Yeah.

I sounded younger. Wasn't it smart though?

But it was.

It was a lot of fun And I think I think people that aren't even in the hounds could listen to it because it really wasn't about no.

It was a family store America.

It's American history, and it's a legacy, and it's you find a lot of value in it if you, and all you got to do is look is just barely look under the surface of it. I know you've heard me talk about and I've talked about it on my podcast about my dad Squirrel. The squirrel dogs in my family started with my great grandfather. Well, it ended with me and my brother. Well, we have no more of them.

They're gone.

There will never be any more of those dogs. And that is what's so cool about it to me and even emotional when I when I listen to it and think about all of that history with that family, and you're there's more. I cannot absolutely I can't wait for the rest of it.

I don't think people, including me, understand the dedication that takes to have a generational line of hounds.

That's what I was going to say. It's an incredible amount of work those seven generations. I had seven generations of females all the way back. I didn't feel like breeding for a little while, and I didn't, and the last one died the day the heck was born and that's it. They're gone. No more of them. Yeah, that's it.

And to and to think going back that many, that many general, it just takes a ton of intentionality. Uh yeah, how many plots do you have, Chris? Right now?

I've got two right now too?

Two?

Yeah. What's their breeding?

They're buy you caging plots call these stuff.

Yeah, good, yep.

Well, I am big time in the market for a plot female. I've decided. I told these guys, so this, this is funny, and this will give you a little bit of insight as we close down into the way people think about these things. Is so my good plot female that I had, Yeah, Fern Newcomb's Ozark b C. Fern b C stands for Bluff Creek. Got it from Steve Herd. She was all I needed a koon dog and and and you know, if I had another one like her for the rest of my life, I'd be happy.

I just liked her.

She got she died last winter.

She died.

Plot coon dogs are hard to find. I mean, it's not that hard to like get a plot. But I tried to replace her for five years before she died, Like I I got I told you all that, and and and and got rid of went through I think four different dogs, and I even went as far as the hunt a walker dog Michael was gonna Michael had a dog, Michael. I hunted a dog for a couple of days that Michael had that was a fine hound. I mean, probably better than any how that I've ever handled.

What I don't.

I didn't really want a coon I wanted a plot coon dog. Because I actually try a hunted another walker during this summer, and uh, a guy, you know, it's a friend of mine had a dog, said you know, and then it three nights and just gave it back to him and it wasn't the dog's fault. I just was kind of like, yeah, that was kind of dog's fault. But we just didn't do it for me. You like what you like, and it doesn't make any sense, and I think it probably bum fuzzled my two dear walker

Yeah, here you go. I've always known you're weird.

You know why I got a walker dog because the first dog I guy was a walker dog. Yeah.

If that happened to me, that's the way I'd have been.

You know.

It's just it's one of those things that there's a lot of really nice dogs out there of all colors. I mean, there really are.

Plots. You take.

You take like the Redwood line of plots, and you take like Johnny Hager from West Virginia, and he can compete just with anybody. You know, you know he's going to be there. You're gonna know he was there anyway. Yeah, And and Evan Workman and Jeff Coons and and now you know there's they're out there. But I always get tickled out of these guys that are you know, they're hunting, hunting a walker or something like this, and they're like, yeah,

It's not good.

It's not easy. And I'm not even saying you're smart. I'm just saying it's not you know.

Yeah, yeah, my life would be easier. I could go. I bet money we could. We should probably do it. I bet today, Dad, I bet I could buy five walker dogs in the state of Arkansas that we could take out tonight and go trick the next four hours. I could I make four or five calls and I could get a good three year old dog if I had the money.

I mean you do. Yeah, I look at that.

I'll tell you one one this is over.

You did say if I had if I had ten grand and you said, Clay, go find you a good two year old plot female coon dog, I'd be like, Okay, which direction do I go? I mean there might be out there and money talks that might be a problem one out of somebody.

Why just because they're more big game hounds as well?

Well, No, long we're going to make this book.

This is what I made in part. I said this in a post on Instagram. I made them tag Brent Reeves. The there's a there's one hundred walkers to every one plot, maybe more, maybe a thousand walkers. Like if you actually did the population dynamics on the breed of dog, let's just say there's a hundred to one. If I give you one hundred tries to throw a bean bag through a hole and I get one, you're gonna win every

Walker dogs are good entry level dogs.

Yeah, I get to the top.

And I'm not this is not degrading to walkers. I'm just saying it's not that simple. And so they're just a smaller pool. They're primarily big game dogs. There's just yeah, it's just like, go right now and try to find a six week old plot. P up hard to find.

When we were talking earlier, you know, I said plots are different and they are. And you know, in nineteen forty six, UKC decided to recognize them as a hound and it had some value for historical preservation and records keeping and stuff like that. But at that point, now you're allowed to go hunt them, and uk see night hunts in different So there's even a lot of strife within the plot breed breeders and fanciers between big game bread and coon bread dog coon dog type stuff. Yeah,

They want Yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Walker breeders are like, we're going to tree coons with this dog, and we're gonna win World champions ships and we're gonna win a lot of them and yep, and that's what they do.

And Dad, that's the walker dominates the hound world. I mean dominates like you know, I don't know the big big World Championship hunts. How many have not been walkers in the last twenty years. I mean there's been some English and so maybe a blue tick here and there, maybe.

No, but not in UK. See blue ticks never won UKC World.

But anyway, the dogs like the dog that you have if you're a coon dog guy.

But so that's.

Had a blue tick as a kid.

Yeah, my first dogs were blue ticks.

I was saying, the blue Ticks won some A C h A World hunts.

And there was a plot that won the world one time in the eighties, right, that was one that was like like back nineteen ninety four n C double a Chance, Corlis Williamson, Scottie Thurman beat Duke. That's nineteen ninety four, Go hogs. Right, that's the one thing we've got in the whole state that our whole history.

We got basketball and we got almost baseball.

Well that's like the plots. When was nineteen eighty eight that dog won the world.

Change they won the PKC World one time too.

They won the PKC World yep.

So you know we got a few bright spots in the past, but we do have a good story.

Yeah, John walk Up won it, uh pk C and Spud Reynolds and Jim Cannon won it with sizzling heat in the UKC World Hunt.

M I guess I could use this platform to my advantage to try to appeal to some of these good plot coon men.

I thought that was the only.

Yeah.

Please the dog Burn, the dog that you and Michael are both hunted with, she was a good well, she was not. She was the only coon dog. I mean almost all those dogs went to be lying and bearing hogdogs.

Yeah, but a Fern could have been as good a coon dog as there is. Fern's little holes that she had was because of you.

No doubt.

Stuff that you let her do that was okay with you. So sure other than that, sure street coon as good as any dog I've ever seen.

So you're being generous. He didn't say that when I'm not around.

No, he does. That's the truth. I've seen him now he saw it.

I've been around some top plot coon dogs. I mean there, yeah, they're out there, but they're hard to They're just hard to get your hands on.

Yeah, yep. Well uh any closing thoughts. Yeah, just one thought.

I can't remember which one it was, but one of those boys, Mont or his boy Wab Yeah, uh said he would never have a bathroom inside of house he was living there.

Yeah. I thought I thought about that two different times today just driving down the road.

I mean, he wasn't the only one in that time period that thought that either. That was a yeah, I left.

That in there because there was such a little nugget he said. He said, I will he didn't have an indoor bathroom until like the nineteen forties because he said, I will never go to the bathroom in my house. How crazy are you? That was good now that that plot history over there, Golly, if you're ever in western North Carolina, Maggie Valley Heywood, I know you've seen all

And yeah, the cabin in the White House, those need to be preserved, if nothing, in really good photography and put it somewhere on display. I mean, I can't believe those two places are just well, they're not being neglected.

Well, listen to this. So mont Plott's house that was built in like nineteen oh three, Yeah, nineteen oh three, somebody has It's not in the Plot family anymore. Somebody has bought that and they've fixed it up and it's a beautiful home, probably worth a ton of money. They kept it classic though, they kept it, they held true. Just imagine a really nice home that's been renovated but still holds the kind of the tradition looks and styles. And so me and Bob went to this man's house,

The photography of it should be out for the public.

And it is somewhere. Well, there's pictures of all that in Bob's book. Okay, yeah, strike and stay the story of the plot Hound. Yeah, man, support old Bob. He's a he's a he's a great writer. He's done a lot of writing in Southern Appalachia. He's got a stack.

Of great Highlands that one of his or was it the legendary Hunters of the Southern Highlands.

Yeah, that's it. There's a there's a bunch of them. There's some on the railroads and different things. But yeah, this has been great. Thank you Chris for coming from Indiana's man, Michael Chris, thank you for coming from South Arkansas. Sun Spot lights, Southern Ish Arkansas. Uh Grady, all right?

But Greig or Central Okay.

Where somewhere somewhere down there, it doesn't matter. Isaac, good to have you, Brent, good to have you. Hey Meeteater's got a bunch of Black Friday sales first Light. If you want to take advantage of these big companies.

Now's your time.

Now's your time. Thank you, guys.

You bet