Ep. 124: BEAR GREASE [RENDER] - The Final Word on David Crockett

My name is Clay Nukeleman.

This is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f HF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the place as we explore.

I don't know if y'all are aware of this, but I am nursing pretty severe injury.

Oh what physical emotional.

Very a physical injury. I have been alternating ice and heat using a tens unit late. It's been kind of serious.

Because he's going to be on prayer chains all across the country. Tell us what happens.

It's a lot better today. But I couldn't like turn to the ride at all yesterday because I thought about sneezing. I didn't sneeze, I just thought about it. I geared up for it.

You injured yourself, thinking, tell the tell the story about it happened.

Well, okay, so here's what really happened. I think what happened is that I was actually I made a quilt this weekend for my first ever grand niece, one of the next generation of my nephew a child, and it's the first one of that generation to have a child. So I made a quilt. My mom came over and helped me with it. Totally bit off, more than we could chew in the time allotted for this project. And so I just like sat over a sewing mission or you know, uh, I was like all day lost.

I know, well, no, I mean, she's there's always deadline. There's always dead like this. It's always there's a baby shower. Right, there's a baby shower that has a date, and then like three days before it's like, let's make this child something that will last their life.

Well, to be honest, I bought the.

Would well, no, you can't buy something that will.

Tb that's right. Good. I actually purchased the materials for this in January. It's been a busy year, you know, and so so we and we have you're hunched over, so munched over. So I think that probably my back was like I'd rather you not be like this. You know, this is too much for.

Birthdays.

Birthday I've never never felt like I've had accumulation of birthdays quite like I did this second. So I get to the end of it, I'm getting. I'm super happy. We finish it like midnight, one in the morning, and a sneeze comes on me, and I get ready to go for it, right, I I get I have powerful sneezes. I'm not. I'm not a meek and mild sneezer at all. I wish I was. It's humiliating to me when I sneeze awful. But one came on. I was alone, everybody else had gone to bed and I and I didn't sneeze.

Sneezer.

It's horrible. I mean, just just like. And so Clay wakes up in the morning and I said, hey, I really hurt my back, I said, He said why, I said, Well, to be honest, I thought about.

Sneezing anticipatory sneeze injury.

Incapacitated a walk, but.

Just just I thought about football.

So Clay said that either, like, the best case scenario is that I got a quilting and the worst scenario is that I got an injury from thinking about.

We're so glad you could join us today, because you know, I heard and I like this.

I like the thought of this. I like to think about it like this. Aging.

Aging is actually the accumulation of error in your body d N a replication. I feel like, okay, okay, maybe I said it already, but when you think about aging, it's actually, you know, your DNA replicates, and it's it's an accumulation of error that makes you old and eventually makes you die, and it has very things that happened.

There has to be a tipping point of that, right well, I think quilting injuries. There's got to be an inflection point.

It's so great to have you all here. To my right, I have my dear friend Josh Landbridge Spillmaker.

Great glad to be.

Here, Josh, you have brought your lovely wife, who's also.

Yes, Hello, hello.

Render second time, I think, maybe even more.

To Christie's left is mister Newcomb. Great to have you, Misske, doctor Newcomb. To Missy's I fancy scholar.

Misters right is doctor Britt Reeves.

Yes, yes, great squire.

How's this country life going, man?

It's it's more fun than than a bunsh of of puppies. It's just I've getting lots of good feedback talking to people.

This is the feedback coming from kind of like a like a like a wife and your daughter, like an algal algorithmic circle of people that just bolster your confidence NonStop.

And it's my mom and my wife. Yep, that's who it is. But this, man, it's going really good.

This last week. You talked about brim fishing.

Oh yeah, I don't know.

I haven't listened to that one yet. I'm really looking forward to.

I haven't gotten I don't know how many pictures of folks sending me and said, man, you inspired me get out and go catch fish. And I'm like, man, this is great. I hope they ain't going to where I like to go.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's some mashing them. Man, they're catching fish and lots of pictures of folks taking kids out fishing.

Oh that's great.

Oh, it's wonderful.

You know what's going to happen to you is what happened to me and Daniel Boone.

What's that?

Oh?

Daniel Boone went into Kentucky in the late seventeen sixties. Yeah, and found to him what was a paradise. It was also the land and inhabited by you know, the Shawnees and others. He hunted for two years and then within thirty years of him going in there and being one of the first white Europeans to cross the Cumberland Gap and to go into Kentucky, within thirty years, Kentucky.

Was a state.

Oh what does this have to do with you?

Yeah, one day you're gonna go to your brim fishing hole and it's gonna be covered with people.

It's gonna be a mall, it's going to be a state a mall.

It's gonna be a star bus.

I've heard that's every time you'll tell the story. I just keep bringing it down. I'm so sorry for that.

We got our friend.

No, No, that's but that's a That's a good thing is when people do what you're inspiring them to do.

Yeah, fish.

And so today I've seen a few things around you saying that brim is your favorite fish to eat, more than.

Crappy, more than anything.

Is it because of the taste or is it because of the accessibility of crappy? Because sometimes I like something and I'm like, I like this better than that, And it doesn't have to do with the thing. It more has to do with things around the thing, Like this thing is accessible to me, So I love it. And I did it with my dad, and I can do it.

There's obviously a lot of nostalgia with it because it was our favorite pastime. And usually anytime I catch a crappie it's an accident. I'm not a very good crappy fisherman. So, but you have a plate them side beside, you know, I'm gonna I just prefer brim. I just love them.

Can you tell me that the describe to me the difference between a brim and a crappie and taste.

Can you one's good, one's better? Okay, I mean I can't. I can't give you that. I can't give you that. Now.

You know how if we had a guess here, I would have you describe in detail what we're wearing. Yeah, here's a plate of brim, a plate of crappy. Talk to me about why one tastes different than the other.

Well, I like brim out of the river more than I do out of a steel water out of a lake. Okay, they taste better to me. It's a fresher taste. And people say, you know this tastes fishy, Well, it's fish. That's what fish should taste.

Yeah, nobody says this hamburgers too, hamburgers. It tastes cowie, cowie.

It's whatever you like to eat. It's like gamy. You know whatever that's game doesn't taste gamy. It tastes like what it is. Bears tastes like bear. Deer tastes like deer, crappie have. The meat is a little whiter, probably it's a little whiter than what what brim are. But they're they know they're different fish. So I just my palate I grew up. If you put numbers on the on fish that I ate growing up, it would be brim by far the most, and then catfish and then everything else.

How many actual brim do you think you've eaten?

I would.

I'm gonna meet somebody, and when I do, I'm gonna give them a hug and like and bottom would be my friend for the rest of their life if they can tell me how many brim they've eaten in their life.

I quit counting Whalen's coonsye tree, last year, sometime after three hundred and fifty.

Now I was I was pretty impressed that you were keeping track, yep, of the amount of coons that here.

But I couldn't tell you. I couldn't even.

So, Missy and I ate some fish this week. Miss He's not a big fish person. I'm not when I when.

I'm disciplining myself because I want those omagas.

When me and Miss nukembe crossed paths and our lives became one. She didn't like fish, so it kind of inherited anything.

Yeah. You know when people say it tastes fishy, I'm like, and that's not good. And that's what this entire species tastes like more or less. Yeah, and you know, I was probably not raised on fine fish.

Catfish.

You don't like that either.

When we would go to restaurants and they would fry their French fries in the same oil that they would fry their fishing, I'd be like, I don't like these French fries, gotcha?

I mean that was so this week.

I was in Alaska back in May and we caught a halibit, about a eighty pound halibit, which was a pretty fun thing to watch. I was in the boat. I didn't catch it, but Christy, do you know what halib it is? It's a big.

Flat Yes, it looks like a big flounder.

Man.

So a halibut.

If I was explaining this to Brint the other day, standard, a standard brim would be upright in the water. He would be thin and tall, and his fins would be oriented. You know, his dorsal fin would be pointing towards the sun. His tail would be pointing south, his mouth would be pointing north. A halibit would be exactly like a brim. His mouth would be exactly like that, except turned flat so that his dorsal fin would be pointing like on the ground. But both his eyes are on the top side,

So I wouldn't just see those hand motions again.

This is a brim. This is a brim swimming through the water. This is a halibit swimming through the water, except the halibu has two eyes on top. A brim has two eyes on the side.

It was like Stamer.

Yes, So this week we.

I fried some halibate, And this story just keeps getting deeper.

This story is making its own gravy.

I went, I wanted to fry halibu, and I went to the cupboard where we keep our bear grease, which I thought we had like ten jars, to be honest with you, and there was one jar. Gosh, and that one jar was from the rendering in at bear Camp two years ago, I mean, coming up on two years.

How was it? Well?

I opened it up, and I have in the past I have used bear grease was a year and a half old, and so this is more than a year and a half old. And I opened it up, and with age it the odor becomes stronger. It's not bad. It's not rancid like you would know of rancid odor. It was a stronger odor, and I went, well, it's

Be careful people listening, always check for this. I wouldn't. I wouldn't normally recommend people eat a year and a half old and actually smelling it. At the beginning, I was like, I don't know that I want any of that. But I ate the halibt because and I've eaten trout this summer that bear got I think he got with you, Josh, and and I'm I'm developing a tolerance. It's that that fish tasted good. I mean it really good, was really good. It truly didn't have any type of like butter and

It's so trasture.

That is a little bit of a that's is like, okay, this is this. The texture is what has been a turn off to me. But I actually really liked the Halibit there was no no interesting aftertaste. And and really Clay just like pulled off of Pinterest or something. It's the the this battle.

I'm not on Interest, but I don't think that it was a good batter.

It's a batter that used uh flour and bread crumbs. It was commination, so it wasn't a cornmeal batter for that flounder, and it was.

It was very good.

It was very Yeah, it was really good.

Yeah.

But the the halib, it it's it's almost like a chicken strip.

You can break it and very Have you had it, Christy?

Yes, I love it. Where have you had hal I've had it in Seattle really good, steamed, steamed. I've had it steamed, broiled, never fried.

Oh yeah, fried. I think the way to go.

Man.

Okay, So when do you want us to come over?

I would love to have you should come over, they supplied. Christy feeds me all the time. Click. Something big has happened that we haven't touched on yet, and that is Banjo has been back from boot camp for a couple of weeks and you haven't been ready to talk about it. Yeah.

So if you recall, for those of you listeners to the Bear Groose Render the Back last year, I talked about how I had Green broke Banjo. I'm trying to figure out how the best way to describe it. I was writing him in a round pin. I've got where he would take a saddle. We could get on him,

Bucked me off.

He went wayward, he did, and it was my fault though, and I knew that it was. I knew that it was my Why you keep covering for this animal, Well, it's because it's it's it's relevant, Josh. It's relevant because.

I just too quickly. I didn't do enough groundwork.

I didn't I long trained him too, which means when I trained Izzy, I had her for the most part trained in about sixty days because I messed with her every day for sixty days, right, and went from almost zero to ridinger in sixty days.

Was it is he the one you did the video series on.

Okay and I still have her Okay Banjo. It was more like over a year.

I did what I did in sixty days with Izzy, and it just didn't.

Stick as well, and it's not as consistent.

Now as consistent, and he bucked me off twice.

Well, I felt like that it was my fault that I that I rushed him, and so I asked Dad and you guys what I should do.

I had a really good mule man in Prai Grove eighty years old.

I told him about Banjo and he he wanted me to quit talking so that he could say get rid of the mule, which was good advice, point being when when I said the mule bucked me off, what should I?

And he was like, get rid of it?

In his mind, it's like, why would you mess with an animal that already had to strike against it?

Because a mule bucking you off is.

Kind of in a way like a biting dog, you know, it's it's it's like, well maybe not but everybody, yeah, yeah, oh he's nice.

Yeah, just so.

But I really felt like that it was my fault and that he, deep inside had all the characteristics I was looking for in a mule. But Clay messed up. And so I remember my dad on this very show said get rid of it.

It's not worth it, get rid of it, and I.

About one of our kids, and I thought he was right, and he probably was at the time.

It could have gone either way.

But I went ahead and invested in Banjo and sent him to to the mill trainer, which is just a great guy.

Something we should probably consider doing with some of our kids.

I would.

I would my kid there, I would.

And he came back with a nice haircut. I mean, Banjo kind of went a little bit flashy, and he came back kind of humble. I mean, had a very tight you know, it was like he had been at boot camp.

For everybody gets a buzz cut when you get the boot cut.

He got four shoes, and he came home a lot more humble. And I've ridden him every day that I've been home since the day I got him, other than two days, so I've traveled a few days during that time, so not counting those days, but only two days that I've been home have I chosen not to write him.

So I've probably ridden.

Him ten times, sometimes as much as two hours, sometimes as little as thirty minutes. I've taken him on roads with traffic. I've walked him up to pedestrians with dogs. I've had him cross creeks, I've had him walk under bridges. I've had him in all varieties of binds, walked him through creeks, like when you're running one like this, you're trying to find his cracks as quickly as possible so you know what to expect. And then when he passes the test, you gain confidence in him.

And he's doing very.

On a scale, well, on a scale of one to ten. What was he when you took him over there? Oh?

Three?

What is he now?

For the stage that he's at, he's probably an eight. But in the big mules, in the in the in the green broke mule category, he's an eight or nine. In the finished mule category, he's probably a five.

Oh there's a different category.

Yeah, I'm just saying it's compared to what he was when you take.

And he's how old?

He's five years old?

Okay, so I've had him since he was weaned.

You can't teach an old mule and new trick.

Well, is the life span of a mule?

Lifespan of the mule is going to be thirty plus years most of the time. Yeah, I've got a good twenty more working years, long enough to kill you. I remember one time I went coon hunting with an old man down on the Arkansas River and I asked him how long he'd lived where he lived.

No, no, no, no no. I asked him how long he'd been married. His wife was there, and he started the sentence off and he looked into the air and started counting, and he said, well, I got my mule.

The mule died when it was fifty three years old, and I was married two years before I got the mule. I've been married fifty four years and he had a mule with fifty two years.

Wow.

Yeah, I don't think that's the point of that story.

Yeah, is this last name Reeve?

When people ask me how long I've been married to Missy, I say, is he's eight and I was married thirteen years before. Izzy h fourteen years, fifteen years, twenty two years.

Hey, you could do it.

How long you've been married?

Three?

Twenty three?

Math?

Math?

Math is tough.

Nice. Let me say, I think that Banjo gets extra points. So because he's pleasant? Is he is mean? She is? She is?

She means to certain people, I mean everybody.

It's a salty old girl. I mean, she really is not pleasant.

Before we started talking about Banjo, we talked about how great Izzy was. Well, so what happened?

Lousy Clay loves Izzy but is he is really unpleasant every morning she wakes up, Like when she's here, every morning she boots the other mules out of the feed pile when they do anything. I mean, she's constantly harassing everyone.

Well, see this is a classic, a classic example, and that's not a negative thing.

I think Banjo's doing well in part because is he's not here right now and he's able to just kind.

Of like it's a classic scenario where there's massively different systems for rating the usefulness of stuff based upon your worldview and what you do with the animal. Misty walks outside and feeds them most mornings. Yeah, and just watches them in the pasture. So when she sees Izzy, she sees a mean, sassy, bucky mule that's pushing and biting the other mules, which.

Is very true. Is he's dominant.

When I work in the Banjo actually comes up and eats the weeds beside the fit, so that he so that we're working side by. Actually he is a very he'll come up to you when you walk by him.

He is, he's and he's probably never the dominant animal sounds in a pen, which can be a good thing. Is he though I'll tell you why I love Izzy is he's now going on eight years old. I've had her since she was eighteen months old, and I've had Izzy and uncountable sticky situations all over the place in different parts of the country. And she has never done anything crazy. And now, when you're evaluating people and friends, that's not a bad way to evaluate them.

Part of the reason I love.

Josh Spillmakers so much is he's never done anything really crazy. Brent has done like two crazy things, but I'm still giving him a chance.

To strikes.

You and Christie are perfect, but no, I'm serious. Usually you put three thousand miles on an animal that one time, you know, she when she crossed the river, yeah, freaked out and killed you, or or the one time that happened, or the one time, And so when you get an animal that just consistently doesn't doesn't do anything really stupid. Is he's never kicked me. Is he's never buked me off? Is he never run off of run me off.

Bucked off river?

Well, that was river's fault.

That was river's fault. That was isy. Is he didn't Is he didn't? For sure?

The mule ran ran with her and she lost control. So and that was when Izz he was young, and uh that was a major dead air. So is he's a great mule, she's she's she's high powered and she will she's a better.

Oh, I've got her over at the Buddy's pasture on okay.

So what would happen to Izzy if you took her to the Almish trainer? Him? That's right, Christy, No they I mean, would they do anything to her?

Like?

Oh, yeah, I could take can you take a mule that's trained to a trainer and they can make her better hundred percent?

When I went to pick up Banjo and me and the trainer went for a ride, like he was like, hey, when you come, we're going to go for a ride. I want you to ride Banjo, and I want to talk to you while you're riding and tell you what we've been doing. He rode a mule that came from Iowa that was supposedly a really high dollar, nice mule that the owner wanted to just get dialed in, real

You just kind of move.

So, yeah, he could teach He could teach easy something for sure. Okay, yeah, yeah, So Banjo's great. I said all that to say Banjo may be for sale next April.

Oh why next April?

That's when that's when I will be confident and I want to ride him basically.

For a year.

Why would you get rid of him?

Because he's gonna be worth.

A lot of money, but money down right now on whether Banjo will be here next year.

Listen, Okay, you want to really know, I mean, you get this great mule, Why would you get rid of it? Okay, josh I just when I when I got easy up to speed and where getting on her was no longer a question of what was going to happen, just knowing what was going to happen. Hm, if Banjo and Izzy are out there right now, I'm riding Banjo because I'm a trainer.

I want to train him. I like passing with him.

So is he's finished Banjo at some point will kind of be finished within the next year. And he is a he is a prime mule to be sold because of his looks, because of his.

Age, and he'll be worth a lot of money.

And I want to get another one. And I've actually already got another one in my sights. I want to trash the one flashy as they make.

Brother, I don't. I don't.

So if you get another meal, are you going to train it or are you gonna or those amish gonna try?

I am okay with what happened with Banjo. I recognize the limitations on my travel schedule. In my life, I will get the animals started and end. But I may take it to my to my to my bro.

I think you have to quantify the value added to Banjo by the celebrity he has gotten from being on this podcast.

Well, he's don't hate the player, hate the game.

Perhaps this whole thing has just been a ploy for me to become a high dollar sales trader.

I think you should be a mule trader.

Yeah, lifelong dream.

Right like people do watch it, they trade if you if you say you get a year out and someone's like, I don't want to buy this meal, but I will trade you X for it.

What would be the thing?

Trade nothing but green bags? Why do you know why?

Because I want to build a north wing off the off south headquarters and we're going to call it the Banjo Wing.

All the wing literally is it going to be full of Banjo's misty.

No, clay, clay is a number of different things that he will be using the proceeds of.

This, or I may take this to Alaska.

Whenever. Whenever I get upset about him potentially sailing Banjo, he's like, well, you just you don't know, but essentially that I'm going to use that money for X. And it's almost never the north wing. It has been once, but there's a there's a lot of other things that he told me. And I actually really like Banjo, you know when you take care of the animals, and I don't take care of them like ride them, you know, but just every morning I'm out there with them. And

Person who left the gate open, a repeat offender.

It was an older offender.

It was it was a small gate. Yeah, it was a big time air, big time air. It was a small gate like a like a pedestrian. It wasn't a big gate, and so it appeared like it was shut, but it actually wasn't. It was only open about six or eight inches, and so I think he just didn't push up against it, pushed against it.

Is he would have.

When Clay leaves, either myself or the children are in charge of those meals, right, and most of the time it's me, but he tries to give the boys or different people responsibility for them. And we have four kids, which means in one year, those mules got out four times because each one forgot to close the gate at one point. Right, And if he's not here, we're going to get those meals alone and they'll they like drapes

Were really proud. People of the town were proud that this was happening.

So proud that they took a picture of the mules and it is now on the city community page. Are loose Mules Like? It is still there today? Yes, I look this week and I'm like, take that picture down.

Get something.

There's this woman whose pigs get out, And I don't understand why the picture of the police trying to catch the pigs is not on the City Facebook.

Yeah, so much more, so much more trauma.

Well, enough about mules, Enough about mules. Let us get to the matter at hand.

This is this is serious.

This is the final Crockett episode the Alamo. This is this is a big day. I've had some I've had some talk about, well, is he going to make it into the Bear Grease Hall of Fame. As a matter of fact, some of you may have asked me earlier if we were going to do that today? And I explained to someone on the Instagram the other day that inductions into the Bear Grease Hall of Fame are are kind of like a thief in the night. You don't know when they're gonna come. They just come when the

No, I don't know that.

Okay, So I don't think.

I think it would be projecting our intent too much to be like, oh, let's do an induction today.

I think Baseball you've got to be out five years before you're eligible.

Yeah, so we'll probably do another induction in nine No, wow, when the time is right. Should his name even come up in the conversation. That's not what this is about.

So we're not doing that today.

No, I thought for sure we would be.

I thought for sure too. You keep talking about it foreshadowing.

I figured, yes, I sometimes my plans are more in line with geologic time than human time. All of you people live in this is the era generation or induction.

It's like, I don't know, here's here's here's how we're going to do a project. Says all right, man, you ready? Yep. We're gonna leave in a month and a half from the day. Got you next day? Hey man, we're gonna put that off six months. Okay, that's fine. Third day, can you be ready in the morning.

It's one, okay, okay, we'll do the induction.

Oh my gosh, this is like an emotional roller coas this is life.

Lived with Clayton is like it is a constant emotional roller.

I've got a quiz for you, okay, in your face. We're about so we're about to get into Crockett.

Yeah, I know it's from from the podcast.

You have you have a question. Okay, let's have a question.

I have a quiz. A quiz okay, okay, this pandemic.

Oh thank you, Yes, well you stay with my thunder girl. But why will you carefully.

Appeared between eighteen seventeen and eighteen twenty one.

Why don't you tell me what that pandemic was?

Well, don't you, fellow, Yeah, tell us.

I've been, I've been, I've been, wife died.

Cholera, caliria listened to I actually stopped and was like, I've never heard that.

Like I just assumed, you.

Know, he said coliria.

Anyone and these get hooked on find it.

And I most definitely like was a girl the nineties, and so I read a lot of Jane Austen, so I knew about like bad things that happened in you know, before we had peniciula and things like that. But but I rewound it and I was like, man, I've never heard of that disease before. And I kept going back and it's like, surely he doesn't mean colera.

He does mean cora. Don't call me sure, don't.

Think about it. The way I figured it out is that he actually is a good phonetic reader, like with all things.

He added, that reminds me when she was little said what's what's what's cholira, what's okay?

So I also took a little heat for the pronunciation of jim booie boe boe, so I.

Would say bowie knife.

You were getting.

There was another I actually test to the integrity of my journalistic efforts that I'm not being influenced, but I'm not just listening to someone else and then just repeating what they said.

That is a fantastic spin clean, that's like glass half fo y'all.

The other the other one is what was the other one?

The other one was the name of the oh yes, pain that I had.

And the guy you were interviewing kept trying to get back down, like that's a little hot.

Yeah, I have a hard time. I heard it. I heard it.

I heard it today, I could do it, and the heat of the moment, I hadn't heard it enough.

So it's day la pina pinya see.

And I was like, daila pena was it?

I was like, I struggled.

I struggled, I struggle read.

You know, listen my mom us reading and having books, access to books that was super important to her. We did not have a lot of discretionary spending in our home, and she but she would sign up for books when we you know, if we bring those glastic things home, she would buy the books she really really valued. Like we did not. We were not a big toy family. We were not a gadget family. But d D would get you books and and we had a stocked library,

College, you would say, thinking about some of them right now, epitome.

Let me see.

I remember I thought I was clever because I added the word pseudo in front of something like I made up a word. Yeah, And I can't remember what the word was, but I remember it was not actually pronounced suedo.

My kids if they wanted to go to that Chipotle restaurant, that's not what it is.

So I I sympathized with yeah, I do too.

Well.

So the Crockett series was and if you're new to the Bear Grease Render podcast what we do on the bear Gase Renders.

We talked for about thirty to forty minutes about.

Absolutely not random.

Thanks for the Last Afternoon podcast.

We discuss the very serious bear Grease podcast from the week before. This was our first four part series, Christie. Yes, I've never done a four parts, just three.

And it felt like the Alimo could have stood on its own. Oh you know, it was like, you've got the three part series plus the animal exactly and you have this an actor that's in bow.

And so this whole time, I've been trying to understand in my mind, get an answer for who was Crockett as a person.

Who was Crockett? And was he a good guy?

Was he a bad guy? Was he a funny guy? Was he not funny guy? Was he did he have good intentions? Did he have bad intentions? And clearly you can't really know all those things, but you can gather data, and there was so much information on Crockett that was not true, even much more so in his own time. There were people writing quote autobiography false autobiographies about him in his time, making him look to be a bragger

Crockett, yep.

Why he was a bear hunter. He was this Tennessee backwoodsman. He was uneducated, he was all these things. And when you really dig down into the granular things that he actually did in his life, he's a fascinating guy. But he takes a bad rap, like, for instance, with the Alamo. If you had talked to me about the Alamo before I really studied much into it, I would have heard people say, Ah, Crockett's no hero. He he didn't even he didn't even want to be in that war like

No, it wasn't that.

His motivations where I love the country of what could be Texas and I'm going to go fight for independence. No, but his motivations were he was looking for a new life. He was looking for a better world for his family. Yeah, he wanted to be a politician in Texas.

That's not a bad motivation anyway.

Clarification of all these things that he was, what do y'all think, What do y'all think was after hearing four episodes, what's your take on Crockett?

I think Crockett was a was a pretty normal guy with a charismatic normal guy. But I think one of the things that you know, Christy and I had a lot of discussion about his his time in Texas and whether he was there to just do what he had to do to get some land or you know what, We're what were his intentions there? And I think it comes down to the fact that the one thing that I did pick up about Crockett is he was very relational and I think you know he talks about in

It was his letter to his daughter, and John Wayne referenced it. But I read the whole letter.

And I think there's an aspect to like he believed in Texas, like he thought this is this is a

A good I think that's good insight. I think in the moment, you would do things right for people.

I don't think he would just pack up and leave those guys. You know. I'm sure he said, all right, I'm here too, I'm gonna stand with you till the end.

And he feels he feels like a guy that can make a quick friend too.

Yeah, exactly, you know.

Yeah. I took him as ving family oriented. A lot of it, A lot of the stuff. It goes back to him taking care of his family. Like when his wife died, he could a pall m which was in common, find somebody. Look, I ain't got a wife, I got these kids. Y'all need to take care of them. Deuces, I'm out. But he didn't do that when found somebody to take care of his kids, and then not only do that, he was taking care of them that that letter.

Well, just for the historical record, and I felt a little bit bad not including this, but it just didn't fit. He he didn't have the greatest relationship with his second wife. We don't really know the details, but we know there was a period of time when they did not live together, which which doesn't necessarily mean that they were divorced or separate. Well, but they were separated, so I see, I see exactly

And there's there is a fair bit.

Of stuff about him not being a great husband, never being unfaithful that's never spoken of. When you were talking about Austin and Bowie Bowie Boo, I thought I was saying it.

Right the eighties, yeah, Crocker, Yeah, well, you know our eighties Rocker, those guys had some legit rough stuff in their record.

That would just be like a pretty pretty wild strike against you. Crockett didn't have that. Crockett was Krockott owned slaves in Tennessee at least one, so it's not he's not you know, he had that. But but he was never known as a woman is er. He was known to be faithful. Whether now you know you're going to write that in your autobiography, probably not.

But Sablie else would though, So in your autobiography, true about it?

Yeah?

Does anyone know when the US coined we're the land of opportunity?

Right?

Is that true?

Natural? No?

No, no, Arkansas, the US?

Oh, oh, I got you.

I think we're called the land of opportunity. Honestly, I think when I think about Crockett, like overall and all the stories about him, he's really always what drives him and motivates him, in my opinion, is opportunity.

Yeah.

Right, So you tell the story about the barrels and taking him down and it failed, but it was all about like, we got an opportunity here, and he's chasing the opportunity. You think about, you know, his politics, everything you talked about that he did and the impact from politics was all about how do you open up opportunity

Yeah, in American culture, but in American Yeah, going back to your first statement, we do live in a place of incredible opportunity over the last two hundred years in this country. If you just looked at the literal options that people have had in terms of economics and where to live, and I mean, and then you looked at the landscape of the world for the last eon, this

Yeah, and I kind of I think that's a little bit what makes me have a slightly more critical view of Bavy Crocket.

Josh just sorry, Josh out the render.

Well, well, but I think that is kind of what makes me have a little but like I'm listening to y'all describe him, and I think it's very generous. I think that, Well, I'm just saying I would love to be Davey Crockett's friend. I think he would be the person that I would if I go into a room and he's there, I want to go hang out with him. I'm going to feel most comfortable around him. I'm going

Yeah, I don't like that.

Not a characteristic of the American Frontier hashtag let Missy.

Talk, I hear you, And it may may have been, it's just if I'm a to me as I listen to to him, I think it's a characteristic of populist types of people who like it. Was kind of funny to me that he found a home in Little Rock because we've read books by other authors who talked about

Gershtocker hated Little Rock exactly.

There's other authors who came through Little Rock around that same time period who thought it was the bane of humanity. I mean, they just thought it was a terrible gerstucker. Do you remember what how how he described it?

Oh, it's it's not really comparing apples to apples because Gershtocker was detailing actually living, traveling through and living in the city. All we have from Crocketts stay here is his his welcome serpts from his speech where he's trying to make friends with these people. Yeah, he says, this is where the half hour half alligator man.

He was a politician. He was a politician because he's said, you know, no finer place because he found to live the little rock. Then he went to Texas, like this.

Is the in Texan.

New Mexico's great, like the.

Country sing.

It's like all these country singers you see on Instagram every single week.

It's like Spokane.

But that's actually kind of the feel I get from Davy Crockett. He's gonna be whatever he needs to be in the room. He's a chameleion, doesn't have super thick skin, super strong staying power like I just I think fun guy could see why everyone would like him. I'm not sure that that's the guy I would hitch my boat too.

Well, because he lacks restraint. I think that's the thing about him and any good entrepreneur.

Right.

I'm fascinated by entrepreneurs who will live in their college apartment ten years after they've made eight, you know, eighty million dollars. Why because they don't care about the money they are building and investing in whatever they're building in. But a good entrepreneur is gonna have restraint. They're gonna have that entrepreneurial spirit, but they're gonna also restrain themselves. Good option, bad option, opportunity, There not one to pursue. I don't think Crockett had restraint.

Yeah, I think he.

I think he just went after all of it.

He did.

The one thing that we don't have about Crockett is that he only lived to be forty nine years old. Yeah,

Yeah, I don't disagree. And like I said, I don't think he's a bad person, Like I don't. I don't. I don't dislike him. In fact, I like him. I would want to be around them, you know, I would want to be around him. I would enjoy the pursuits and would love to you know. Once he did something and it was like say, like he's a he's a pioneer, he's a he's an Entrepreneur's.

One thing that I talked with Robert Morgan about this and it just didn't make the cut. I think that a lot of who Crockett was came from him being a middle child. He was fourth or fifth of eight or nine kids, and he was the thing that glows to me in his autobiography is how much he loved validation from people, which actually made me not like him,

The less generous viewpoint is that that he he was jumping from place to place, not just for opportunity, but for validation for Well, that's.

Where I go back to this middle child thing. This man was literally raised in abject poverty on the American frontier, which today is romantic, at the time was the end of the earth. It was not the place you wanted to be. People were enamored with the frontier. Europe wanted to hear about it. The East wanted to hear about it. But to actually live there and scratch out of living was would be like living on the edge of a war zone.

It would be.

And I heard my friend Steve Vanella one time described the American Frontier like living on the border of Iraq and Pakistan, I mean a contested border. And so here's this kid who pops up and by the time he's like in his late twenties, and he becomes a magistrate in his county, and all of a sudden, his neighbors start going, you know what, David, you're pretty you're pretty good guy. You have a pretty good judgment, you're a

They were just lost in the middle. Some of us understand that, not Josh.

He doesn't understand that, Josh, I'm a middle child.

Most definitely Clay, who the baby.

Josh was the firstborn.

Josh is the firstborn.

So when you so, basically what I'm saying is I could be negative about Crockett and think he was see this thing where he's kind of vain, but I also have a It's it's a pretty tall order to put my value system that I have today on a man that literally rose up from the ashes and became a legitimate potential presidential candidate.

Did all that he did, and he did have a lot of moral fiber.

It was misused in some places, but he really stood up to Andrew Jackson, the most powerful man in America, and put it in his face about the marginalized Cherokees and Native Americans that they were trying to move out. And from everything that you can inspect about his decision to oppose the Indian Removal Act of eighteen thirty, it was legitimate. Which it's like, man, I can have tip that because that was that was a very forward thinking

Okay, yeah, days he would have.

You would have rivaled you. Brent.

Yeah, first ballot, He's a first ballot Hall of Famer.

I'm just saying, Brent's trying to Brent's trying to force a vote here.

That's a coup or a coop, a coop.

Coop literature unt by uh opinions of others. I would read that as a coop. Okay, we're gonna do it.

We're gonna this is this is great. We're gonna do a quiz.

We win.

We're gonna do a quiz.

I'm not using all my brain unless I got a power got prize.

Oh I see, so, uh? Do I have any other thoughts on Crockett as a whole?

What?

Well, what about this last episode? Do you see? In general?

This is one of these things where, in general people you get the idea that people in Texas are.

Real worked up about whether Crockett died fighting.

I was really surprised when the guy talked about the letters and death threats, and that was kind of wild in me.

Well, but when you actually talk to the individuals that I talked to in Texas, they're like, we really don't care how he died.

No, I wouldn't have either. Yeah, he was there, he was he he signed his name to the dotted line, and he got up there and he stayed there with the folks. He didn't run off. Yeah, I don't care if they caught him or if he died swinging like fest Parker did, or if they blew him up like they did John Lame. He was there and to me, that's all that matters, because that's all those boys that were with him.

I could have made a podcast wholly on the controversy of why even fifty sixty eighty years ago Texans made a bigger deal about it, because there's all these paintings of Crockett so much national or well state identity, but at the time national identity, because Texas was a it's on republic, it's own country for about eight nine years.

There was there was some deeper stuff and uh, my boy, James Crisp, he.

I didn't I didn't include it because it's just not the conversation I was having. But he he brings up a strong point of He talked about how he felt like they didn't want Crockett giving up to the Mexicans as like a racial thing, like we would never we would never surrender.

To like Benedict another country like Benedict Donald turned round us for the British, and.

So so there therein lies something a little bit deeper, which I don't know. It was a compelling argument he had, Like I said, but I don't know that that's the full story.

If you were, you might could look at it that way.

So there is some.

More there's some legitimate reasons to wonder about why did it? But what do y'all think?

How did you?

I ready to go, Brent? Is your gut?

My gut is they overwhelmed him and killed him, called him and killed him.

Just from the discretion You're like, executed? You think he was captured and executed? Is that what you're saying?

Well, the real question is, yeah, was was the de la Pina diary correct or?

Because that was the whole thing day. Lapina said that even men were captured and they were executed.

The lady that had the child, and then.

They Dickinson the survivors.

She said where he was laying was laying between two buildings, laying there with his hat beside him. To me, if they're going to execute him, they to put him out in front of right out in the middle of the street or the middle of the courtyard or the plaza or whatever it was. But she said it was between two buildings. To me, it's sounds like that's where they they run him down or caught him or surrounded him and got him right there.

There's something to be said there.

But here's the thing, and I'm not I'm playing Devil's advocate just for the sake of all the information, is that she never wrote down what she saw. What she said was recorded by someone else. So this woman who was one of the only female English speaking survivors who survived with her child, who was called the Alamo Baby, she's the person that wrote down what she said said, I saw Colonel Crockett laying there with this peculiar hat

And that was what I'm saying. And this Santa Ana made really no reference to him other than if some guy called Crockett, right am I Right?

Okay, so you think he you think he died? Fine, okay, miss Nukem Okay.

I think there's two possibilities. If I have to pick one, I'm gonna pick uh. How the how the lady described him that the But.

What I'm saying is that you're saying she she he could have been executing.

Yeah, But I'm with Brent. I think that I do think the guy would have made a bigger deal of it. If he would have understood who he was, and if he didn't understand who he was, then yeah, it was it's almost like an afterthought. Yeah, this guy, y'all know everyone there is talking about named Crockett. I think it's possible he could have gotten caught up in a sneeze. It just happened forty nine, So.

Way to bring it back.

Oh man, Oh wait, so so you think he died in battle. You don't think he was executed. I don't, and you guys are real believers.

Listen, listen. Christy comes back and says he was executed.

I'm going to tell her all the reasons why it's crazy to think he was executed. So I'm playing, I am playing Devil's advocate.

Yeah, I can take it.

There are three corroborating eyewitnesses of Crockett's death by execution, why zero him dying in.

Battle, and all three were on the other side, right, All three were Mexicans and they did it quite a while after, right.

Well, the information well, no, the Da la Pina Diary did come out in the eighteen fifties in America. People knew about it in Mexico for a long time. It's just Crockett was brought up by Disney and apparently somebody was like, hey, we got you know, we allow Crockett died.

Thing was it that didn't they say something like the font was different.

Or okay, that differences.

Wade, my buddy, Wade Dell. I love that guy. He's the one whose dad built a house that looked like the Alamo on floor.

Wade Dealing is a cool guy. I wish he could have been here. He's a great guy. You should follow him on Instagram. Wade Deal in art.

He's an illustrator and passionate about the Alim. I love it. He Wade said. He he's the one that said that.

And that is an argument that the diary is true, Like it was a legitimate diary, but the section about Crockett was was forged and wasn't right. He thinks that de la Penna was in a Mexican prison and was reading newspaper articles and went back in and filled in his diary with the information he was getting from newspapers. Yeah, and so it was different. James Crisp who that guy is?

That's what he believes.

So now you're looking at Christy like, Christy, what are you going to say?

But you just listen. But listen, Josh can Josh can validate that this is what I said yesterday. And I'll say exactly what I said yesterday. I think he was captured and executed. And I think that because I think he was he wanted to live, he wanted Yeah, I don't. I mean, I'm going back to my first like, he was all about opportunity, making a way for his people, his family, and I think he was a good soldier, and so I don't think he was killed. I think he was captured. And I think he could have been

Romantic you think he was captured and executed.

I do. And I would also say the only thing I know about the Parlay I've learned from pirates of the Caribbean, and I was offended.

By the reach, So what about the Tornell decree then, Christy don't know the Tornell decree was death to all pirates.

Yeah, they weren't taken prison.

Yet, that's what That's what was.

So we had that conversation yesterday too because it was so confusing and they rejected the parlay. So did they actually capture anyone because they told him no, prisoners kill everybody. So it's weird.

I don't know.

But if I'm just if I get to choose, which I feel like this is a little bit choosier and adventure because we don't know, I'm going to choose that he was captured because he fought, like to die.

I know exactly what happened. I think I think he fought. I think he ran out of ammunition. I think he probably was down to you know, hand weapons, a knife, a hatchet, whatever. I think he could have lost those. I think they probably overwhelmed him, took him and just killed him. Not not like a public execution, but like figure they caught him. I think they caught him and just killed him.

So that would be.

Yeah.

But I think I think you're introducing a whole news I think.

Probably I mean, I don't think it was. I don't think it was hand to hand combat that he died in.

I think he was.

I think they probably cashed for it and just gave him.

That's what I said.

Yeah, so I think I don't think. I don't think they made a big deal that he was David Crockett. He was just another guy fighting, that's where. And then somebody who knew recognized him.

He had that peculiar hat on. That's what they fine.

Well, and.

We none of us are probably really qualified to have an opinion. Why well, if I being honest, because we have not read the dail opinion diary nor and I have not. I have not read what he actually wrote. I've not seen the pages and made a decision of was the front like the back, but also the corroborating witnesses. I would like to read those to see what they said. There's also they also said that Dailapina was very upset

Well, I don't know.

I don't understand really all the politics of it, but it would be like, oh, of course he would have put that in his diary, this stuff like like it's very complicated, very complicated.

But am I the last one?

Yeah? What do you think?

Sneezing?

And just because we're gonna all quality.

So help me, every Texan in America is going to come after you if you say he he committed suicide, having not not having having a qualified It's.

Hard for me.

To not.

Even with the Daily Opinion diary, even with the corroborating witnesses saying they saw him executed, it's hard for me to get behind it.

The execution.

I think I think he died fighting, And that's not a romantic I don't really care. I don't think it's that's not me wanting to like Crockett. I just think that they were just killing a bunch of folks. And secondly, what are the chance answers that Crockett would have been one of the last guys.

Yeah, that's saying he could have died twenty minutes after it started.

I mean there are.

We do know that he lasted a really long time, and it's even possible that some of the survivors noted that he was one of the last guys around. Somehow, we we know that and the data that I escapes you. Well, I don't know that it ever hadn't, but but the fact that he would just be like the last guy alive.

It made for a short movie and book. If he'd died at the beginning of it.

Yeah, I just think.

But if he was captured, I think he would have done everything in his in his power to get released because there the Daiapina Diary and some others say that he tried to get out of dying, which is like a good thing.

Yeah, of course would have believed like if they said he got tried to get out of dying with like befriending them and saying wild stories and yeah, like I would think that if he were to try to get out of dying, it would be colorful and memorable. And he wasn't.

He wouldn't have done it. The thing about everyone getting mad, like he wasn't doing it out of cowardice, Like you were just motivated to live. Yeah, and if you weren't shot in the battle, then you're gonna be motivated to live. Whatever that looks like.

Yeah, But to go against everything that I just said.

To play devil's advocate on yourself, our.

Boy my friend Wade Dylan.

He said that he doesn't think Santa Anna would have killed Crockett if he would have known who he was, because he would have taken him back to Mexico to prove to the Mexican government of American involvement. Because here is this the most famous man in America. That Santa Anna would have saved him, taken him back.

They still could have taken him back.

Well, that's why I and I'd like to talk more with Wade about that. I mean, it's a pretty big deal to take a prisoner of war, especially when you've declared that everyone's going to die. And they ended up taking a flag back of the New Orleans Grays, which was a garrison of troops from New Orleans.

And so.

That argument I'm not entirely clear on, because that's one of his main things is he said, if they'd an known Crockett, they wouldn't have killed him. They would have taken him as a captive because he was so famous. Yeah, which I don't know.

M Has everyone been to the Alamo?

I have never been there.

I had I don't remember being there. My family traveled a lot. When I was under three years old, I don't remember.

I've been to the Alma, not in the Almo.

Okay, Christy, you've been there.

Yep. How do you how do you do this whole thing, this whole series about well this just this one in particular, the last episode about the Alamo, and I mentioned Phil Collins.

Mm hmm.

You know what, Clay actually tried to get a hold of him. Phil's not doing well.

No, I understand that as well.

Yeah, we actually tried to get Phil Collins as a feature guest on The Baker's podcast, made a pretty legit stab with some people that knew his people.

Extreme Alamo enthusiastic Phil Collins, the musician see it in the air tonight.

Yeah, he donated a he had a hull. He had a huge collection of Texas and Alamos.

Apparently his age, his age would have had him as a child during the Walt Disney Crockett era and uh yeah, he's a very well known Crockett Alamo die.

Hard really interesting.

Makes me like him even more.

How's it go? I can feel it?

You said he It is feeling when you feel.

No symbols.

That's right, it's true.

M hmm.

Well, this has been a great conversation. Thank you all so much for being here. Christy, it's been great to have you.

Thank you.

Yeah, you gave some very compelling arguments that are going to rival the next invitation. Whether I'm bite your Josh Josh, thanks for.

Thanks for driving rope.

Yeah exactly, I'm just the chauffeur.

Well, I can't wait for everyone to find out what the next series is about.

Is it going to be a four part or two?

On fest Parker, I doubt it to be four. I doubt it to be four, But.

Phil, phil cec Isaac, C C. Hayden please close out with I can feel it in the air.

Goodbye.

Thanks guys,