Nuriyah Khan

radicalized while he was here, like my mom, obviously I wasn't born, but my mom was telling me that he wouldn't even like look her in the eye when he would talk to her. He'd like look down. You got your passport in your hand? I was like, yeah. He's like, do not, do not. Just just put your put the foot put your foot down and and make your way to the airport where these stupid charges don't apply.

The problem is the Islamic way. Far right, glamophobic act Since then, it's been organized protests across the country. London, Manchester, Leeds. Even in their 1,000 amount of drugs was used. There is no such thing in this country as I must be Free, Tommy Robertson. Welcome to my latest edition of my podcast, Silence, where I'm joined with a guest who I believe is brave and courageous

and risking their life, which we'll get onto. That is Narrea. So, Narrea, thank you for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. I've seen your not your go to, but you're described as ex Muslim commentator. Mhmm. So I'd like to just start at I I wanna get onto the whole Islam thing, your upbringing in Islam, but find out more about you first, if that's alright.

And, yeah, my my granddad was, an imam of the local mosque as well. So he held the key. Okay. And he would open the mosque for the earliest, morning prayer. And there'd be, like, Quran recital competitions and all of these things around the mosque that I would be heavily involved in. And I'd go to Quran classes every day as well after school. Again, a lot of indoctrination there. I started to wear the hijab at 9 years old based on what my Quran teacher told me.

Saudi Arabia play out in front of you, the call to prayer, the abayas, all of those things. But also, thankfully, because I went to a British international school, it was co ed. So, you know, gender mixing was normal. We had discos. But again, it was like being in a school in England. But why I say it opened my eyes a lot was because, again, how embedded, like, Islam was in Saudi. Obviously they follow the Wahhabi

Islam. And at the time that I was there, now this has been watered down a lot, but when I was there they had the mudawah, which is the Islamic police, the religious police. And they would enforce Sharia in daily life. So if my mom was at the supermarket shopping

and she was there with her, like, 2 English friends, They didn't have their head covered and the Mu'Dawah would come and say to them, You're in our country. You need to cover cover your head. And they even rebuked him like once and said, We don't believe in Islam. We're not Muslim. And he said, it doesn't matter. You're in Saudi Arabia. Our rules apply. And then they had to my mom told me they they both put on their head, headscarf and complied.

So that was the big thing as well. They would stop men who weren't, like, stopping their cars on the side of the road to go and pray at prayer time. These little things of these, like, encroaching onto, you know, daily life. My my dad and my brother would go for Friday prayer and there would be announcements for beheadings and amputations after the prayer every Friday.

And Riyadh, because we lived in Jaddha, which is still a bit more of a liberal ish city if you can call it that. But Riyadh is intense. So they had this whole square, which is called Chop Chop Square, which is renowned for Chop Chop Square. Yeah. Literally. That's what the expats called it.

spending time in the Middle East, being surrounded by all these other cultures, they got more and more disassociated from my grandparents here who were quite conservative and religious. So as a as a family, we would travel the world and, you know, they can see how intense Islam can be. So they're rebelling in their own ways as well. And then obviously 9 11 happened, which kind of shook us all to the core as well.

Can you teach us the shahada or the gulmar? Just I was like Why'd they want that in case someone come in? In case there was So they could say they're Muslim. Yeah. Yeah. And they put, like, our neighbors were from New Zealand. They actually put, like, a Allah and Mohammed like little decoration outside their house as if, like, terrorists are gonna come and check. But, I mean, it's just indiscriminate when it happens, but that's the level of fear. We started having terrorist drills in school.

And I went up to school. They're like, is this because of me? I said, no, that's now national quick like, that's now across the board in the country, they practice lockdowns. Wow. They just call it a lockdown. They won't say it's because of jihad. Yeah. They'll just say it's an emergency lockdown. Okay. So you you're there. So you're not wear you're not wearing the hijab from 9? No. And then you're living quite freely in

Christianity and Islam. It's kind of infused and you know they're able to like enjoy life a bit more. They're able to drink. It's it's kind of a mishmash of both and I was like, why do we follow the the the one that just sucks the joy out of life? It's so intense. All of this. So this exposure to other cultures and other religions and I met Shias for the first time. I didn't know that they existed and again in Saudi Arabia, they

they weren't able to say their last names and come to the same mosques as Sunnis were. They have to live, like, almost underground because Saudis don't like Shias at all. So even Shia friends of mine in school, they wouldn't openly discuss that they were Shia.

I guess so. Yeah. I guess it's the the schooling. I guess they did something right. Is there a private school out there? You obviously don't know. It it's it's akin to a private school here, I'd say. Yeah. The standards are quite high for for the rest of schools out there because Saudi Arabia is considered a hardship zone. Nobody in their right mind is gonna wanna go from London to Saudi Arabia. So they make the schools really good. They offer expats a great package. You get 4 flights home, business class back to your country because it's such a hardship zone. Yeah. I mean for a normal person, you don't have cinemas,

you can't access bars, there's there's nothing to do. There's no, like, you know, especially when I was there. Now Saudi Arabia's opening up more and more. But it was very much like you sacrificed all of your pleasures and like your You left to make it worth the the the employees' while Exactly. Incentivized. Great education and things like that. Yeah. All paid for. All paid for.

I went to Dubai for 2 years of my last two years of schooling in Dubai. That's when I and then I came back at 18 for university.

Yeah. It was glorious. But and again, it was the perfect blend of, for me, in my eyes, East meets West. And I was getting ready to come back to London for uni anyway so I was like this is the perfect transition because Saudi warps your reality a bit. Yeah. Whereas Dubai was a bit more like you can intermingle with with boys, you can go out, you can people were, you know If he goes there to party. Yeah. Exactly. Booze is a lot more readily available. You can sneak into clubs, fake IDs. All of these things are

I was just thinking this. Mhmm. It was Especially you must have been from the from the girl you would have been if you stayed in that school in London, wearing the hijab at 9, with the influence of your granddad in the mosque, to the girl you probably then become, even though you've been in Saudi and then Dubai with a bit of freedom. You've come back. What what's your granddad's opinion when you've come back?

Universities have a diverse experience. They thought I'd gone off the rails, obviously. Like, I couldn't keep up this commuting and coming home late and, you know, trying to live a double life. So eventually I wrote a long winded email to my dad,

saying all the reasons that I can't live here and how much the uni experience I'm missing and he just said, Okay. He And again, I'm so grateful. They understand that he he actually put me in the thick of it and I was able to stay in dorms and actually get the full experience for university because they they they just think you're a lost cause if you start even giving them thoughts that you're potentially hanging out with boys or you're drinking or you're out clubbing and that is the

there is no scope for that. And I remember my grandfather said to me, If I was your father, I would never let you do what your dad has just allowed you to do. But I had to live my life, so I went. Interesting. At this time, when you're

I guess in the Pakistani society here anyway, we've got something called a Durst, which is not so instead of going to the mosque, like this is what my grandma used to do, all of them in the community, all of the, like, Muslim women and elders, they would have somebody's house dedicated to all meet up and then they kind of, like, talk about hadith and the prophet's life and pray and all of that kind of jazz.

That's their version of fucking warfare. But Tommy, just on your point, what you said is it's so poignant because if I hadn't left London Yep. And I was wearing hijab at 9 and I kept going to that same mosque, which is still there and getting even more funding and I had been under the influence of my grandfather I would have literally been Shamima Begum. You've been Shamima Begum? I was on course to, I mean, that that was like the natural trajectory.

Yeah. And they still have that lifestyle where you can you know you have drivers, you've got maids, you've got all of that. It's not frowned upon there. So people this is why so many people go. Right? I'm not going anywhere. Yeah. Work hard, play hard.

And then he had the chance to like manage Pakistan which he said he would do from Dubai. So he obviously didn't wanna Yeah. Good choice. Exactly. Saved all of our lives a bit longer in Dubai. Otherwise, you'd have been back in Pakistan. No. I mean, I don't think we would have gone with. We would say just just do trips and come back here. Keep our base in Dubai at least. He he's also not been back many times. Obviously, he, you know, he struggles, with certain elements of it.

Of what? I guess it's just the the hardships

I mean, the immigrant experience based in, like, Southall, which was like the melting point of, like, all this Asian hotspot. And then you had, like some kind of gang rivalries as well playing out and then you've got the skinheads as well at the time.

So they've, like, lived through all of this and they were very much they had a different outlook on life. You know, they Everyone's got their vices. In Islam, you're not allowed to gamble. You can't drink. You can't do all these things, but everyone's doing They grew up doing all of it. Everyone's doing things to certain degrees. Of course. Yes. So it's been that generation who worked hard.

the the Soviet. Yeah. Yeah. And he was again What was the world like in your family at that time? Was if your uncle's going to fight, was

because he was he was insanely radicalized while he was here. Like, my mom, obviously I wasn't born, but my mom was telling me that he wouldn't even, like, look her in the eye when he would talk to her. He'd, like, look down and What year was this? I can't remember what year it was exactly.

like, it's just it's just join any society. Just don't don't don't join that one. Join the Pakistani one if you want. Join this. Join that. And he had been telling me, like, obviously in the days of Anjum Chaudhry and stuff, they would go to their universities and they would radicalize these young men. They would literally show them, like, propaganda, like videos of Muslims being killed and then say, Answer the call for jihad. And my dad said, I was so close to getting, you know, you're a young lad, you know, testosterone,

you're seeing your own your brothers and sisters being killed. They're riling you up. This was like after you go to the mosque, you read Jum'ah, the Friday prayer with everybody collectively. Then they come to you, they show you these videos, they talk to you. There's a bunch of men in a room and they're like literally recruiting.

And my dad said if I didn't have interest in snooker and some other things in cricket, I would have gone down that path. Exactly. In fact, remember the Stockholm bomber. He went from Luton and blew himself up. He's an Iraqi. So he come to Luton for university,

Yeah. I'm just wondering what your what the rest of your family outlook is. So you've got you've got uncles that are would you say radical still now?

But it was work working with celebrities around the world who would, you know, like, do, like, some kind of art for royalties. So nothing really in Dubai was, like, getting my attention because it's very much, oil and gas or property or these kind of industries, which obviously I after studying it so as I had a bit more of a humanitarian outlook, and Dubai didn't have any employment opportunities for that, really. So I struggled, with that side of things.

And, yeah, again, I got I got stuck into the Dubai bubble of just, you know, you're out of reality. People just there. If you

if you have a decent life, all you think about is where's the next next nice restaurant we're going to or what's the new Michelin star restaurant that's opened. You're so detached from reality but you understand that you can't speak your mind. So I couldn't, like you know, even on WhatsApp and stuff, like, I can't you can't banter about things. You can't Is it like that in Dubai then as well? Absolutely. Because people have this facade now with Dubai that it's this amazing

my parents again were moving to Malaysia. So With work again? With work again. Yeah. Brother and sister have to go there and all? Any of them young enough to get dragged along? My brother and sister were at uni, but the little one had to go with. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. She's like, every time they say, oh, we need to talk, she's like don't. I know what it is. Where are we going now?

But I mean again it shaped her amazingly because I can actually like she she can go and kind of adapt to any culture and people. Yeah. And She's free? She's free. Yeah. Absolutely.

Okay. So you've been seeing him anyway? Yeah. But Yourself. So you chose him? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't You're dating some dude? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where's he from? He was originally from Pakistan, Pakistan but he was born and brought up in Dubai. Okay. So, yeah. So so then I

they wanted me to do an Islamic marriage which obviously I didn't really want to do. But then I thought that's the only way that even if I was to go to Malaysia, like that I can have visits back to Dubai or whatever, I can still travel. So

then they were like, Nope. You don't. You shouldn't do an Islamic marriage because it looks like something's gone wrong or that you're running away. So let's do a full, like, whole big wedding so that people know that this is, you know, done the right way and it's the real deal.

So I did that. You got married to him? Him? Yeah. Yeah. I did. I did. Did you wanna get married to him? Or was it just for this purpose? No. No. I was too young and I hadn't dated my fair share of men that I wanted to. I was, you know, nowhere re ready to Did he wanna get married? Was he was he privy to these conversations, or is his mom and dad saw it all that? No. He he was pushing for it. Oh, he was pushing for it? He was definitely, Yeah. He was definitely pushing for it. Again, now now,

in hindsight, I also think there was an element of them trying to get an English passport secured in a way. Oh, his family? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He married a huge bang. Mhmm. Your family is successful. Thank God the process is not that simple anymore. But, yeah, I think that's the back then, aren't it? Yeah. It was. It was. It was. And that's why I was not bringing him to London on any trips because obviously it gets easier the more times he visited. And I would just I would just come by myself or I'd go to Malaysia to see my parents. Obviously, because the marriage was insufferable,

very much like Why? Because, again, that's why I think there was this hidden agenda for the passport thing because after the honeymoon, the switch was just so And how he was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was like a completely different person. But I think there was also like some underlying mental health, you know, issues there that they hadn't told me about.

Because when I questioned his sister and his parents, they realized like I had plopped on to something. And that's when I realized something is really How long was you seeing him, if you don't mind me asking? Before the marriage? About

No. You're seeing each other, what, for a meal here and there? Yeah. Yeah. Like a cup of tea, breakfast, chill. If you consummated that marriage before? Oh. Where where had you were you in a sexual relationship before the marriage? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. He was.

So there was a lot of issues there as well and I'd keep coming back to London and and just, like, having time away. You'd keep escaping Yeah. A lot. So I know. Like I was with him for about a year and a half. I think I took maybe 7 trips and maybe spent like 5, 6 months actually with him. Did you tell your parents you weren't happy at that time? Not for a long time because, as you said, like, I thought this was on me because it was my decision.

And in our culture, culture, religion, a bit of a Was it your decision then?

I mean, no. That's what I think. No. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it's ridiculous that I had to do that. As a Muslim girl, you're thinking I've married him. It's my decision. I made this decision. And you're told you can't do whatever you want as a woman, but do it once you're married. And do it from your husband's house and do it under like, you can't do anything before that. If you want your freedom, if you wanna travel, you have to do it. Once you're married? Yes. But that's the wrong way around. Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And when we'd go out to eat, he would order a drink in the way that Don Draper would order the drink. And I was like, what is wrong with this man? It sounds pretty funny. I know. But you just having a bit of banter? No. No. No. But then Tommy once when I was literally asleep and he was watching the OJ trial and he, like, hovered over my bed with some whiskey. And he's like, this is a

great, like documentary. You should watch this. And then he put the glove on. Oh, no. No. I was like I'm I literally was like one code away from some telling my friends to like get me out of here because yeah. You fell into you fell into it. So I know we can laugh. You it sounds quite funny. But in hindsight, for you, was it was it an intimidating behavior? It was it was tripping me out. I was like, what what is going on? And then and then I just started to feel really, really, like, just on edge. And, like, when his car would approach, I just wanted to, like, I'd go out to walk the dog and I'd go out for a very long time just to be out in public.

So that if you wanted to come find me, we'd be within a public space. But then I started, like, watching TED Talks and feeling down. And I'm not really one to be depressed or, like, feel really low. And at one point when I thought, like, what's the point of this? Or when I had, like, a split second of suicidal ideation, I quickly Googled, like, a TED Talk.

And then I was like something came up and then I Googled, like types of abuse and I realized there's emotional abuse, psychological abuse, financial abuse, all of these things and why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling. And it's like, finally, is this what this person's saying? Are they gaslighting you? Are they I didn't know what these words were. I I had no clue.

And then I thought, shit, there was like a checklist. Like, is this this this is happening to you? And everything Did they take on characters from films?

Yeah. Yeah. They missed out that. They were like, yeah, personality issues. Like this flipping and not remembering what you're saying. Or it got to the point where I had to start recording what he was saying because he would, like, outright deny it and make you think you're going crazy. He's playing games with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you when you have to start recording somebody, you know things are beyond repair.

loved travelling. He Yeah. The whole shebang. There was nothing really. But like belief wise I still believed in in Allah, in Islam, and all of that jazz. And then And so did he. How did you make the decision to leave him?

I think the decision was more made for me when my dad was coming back on business one day and I hadn't said anything. But there were a couple of people I'd confided in and my best friend just took the initiative because she called up. I think my dad was was weirded out that I wasn't answering his calls because I had planned to leave. But I had to try and get, like, my money, get my jewelry, get all my possessions that I wanted to take with me because obviously I didn't want him to know that I was leaving. So I had planned my escape and I didn't even wanna tell my dad. I just said to my dad, I'll meet you for lunch tomorrow. Your shit's bad if if he if he if he's just gonna come home, you're gone. I know but I would like I mean the level the level of you where you're at is I need out of here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Again though, I wasn't like I wasn't planning to do it that night. No. I had a plan in place and I thought I was just gonna go and see my dad. But my dad got the inkling that something was off and then he was like, no, he's not answering my calls. And I think my best friend explained to him what was happening, and he said, Tell her to just get her passport and leave now. And my

friends came and picked me up and, yeah, we just, we got out of there. And then obviously my dad was like, Why? Why? Why didn't you tell me? Yeah, why didn't you tell me? Shame, culture, honor, guilt.

So, like, I pushed him to maybe go get therapy when I realized, like, that's no way gonna work. And whatever condition he might have, it's like a long term thing and I'm not living my life dealing with this. But yeah, it's, I was I am the first woman in my family to get divorced, even in, like, my immediate family. So I just felt like, yeah, there was that. You're lucky you didn't have children. I know.

And then he started following me. I started finding out my new place of work. Work. He started he hired someone to watch me at my house. I had to sneak through the back door. I need to call Ubers. My life was getting just I felt like I was being watched all the time. And it was getting unsafe for me to just, you know, be escorted somewhat, like not be escorted somewhere. And then my parents weren't allowed. And that was that for a young woman? That was crazy.

I had like one of my friends come and stay with me because my parents were like here in the UK And, he would send things to my house, like really intimidating, weird things, like either, like delivery drivers with really weird notes attached with some food. Or, like, you know, in Islam they use black magic and

they kind of, like, think that because I've left there's something wrong with me or that they can use black magic to bring me back. Sometimes I would wake up and there would be like a like just absolute shit just chucked outside my villa

And, like, I would, like some people who would believe it would be like, don't step on it. Don't step on it. Like, walk around it. But I'm, like, just trying to go to work and I'm dealing with all of this. And I went to the police in Dubai over and over again and I said this is the situation. He's watching my, he's literally watching my room window.

He's, following me to work. He's sending me flowers and gifts up to my office. Like, again, creating such a scene. And the police officer said, Okay, install a camera. The next time he comes and does something we'll catch it. So I installed cameras, did everything.

Again, footage very sketchy because sometimes I don't know how he would, like, come from the back and leave something else somewhere else or he would get someone else to do it. And then I realized the police aren't really doing anything. They don't care. And then I went over and over again to, like, say I need to collect the rest of my stuff from my house, like, some of my belongings that his family have kept on to. And again, they flipped that and then

he he said that I was guilty of theft. So they put a theft charge on me for me wanting to go and collect my belongings. And I was like, why is the police twisting everything this way? And obviously, he had, like, paid them and he was there Would you need to pay them? Or would it just be that he's the man, you're the woman, you're in an Islamic country? There is that element, but he was hanging around this police station Okay. And making sure this because, yeah, he was making sure that my life would be made hell anyway.

But then it got really bad. Like, when the police started asking me for my passport for these, like, charges, you don't need I don't need to hand over my passport. But when they when they realized, like, I'm actually gonna go ahead and get divorce because, you know, screw this amicable stuff, the Dubai police called me and said that there is a charge against me for disobeying my husband, which is called Ta'azojiah in Arabic, which is a Sharia law. And I need to return to his house.

Otherwise, they will arrest me forcibly and take me back home, and I can't leave without his permission.

And where does that come from? The the Quranic verse about if you merely fear disobedience, obviously me leaving him and leaving the house is mad disobedience. So yeah, that that was put on me and I was like, shoot. Now things are very, very serious. So this

I I stayed, like, away as much as I could. How long is this going on from you leaving him to not getting divorced? How long how long is the period of leaving him to divorce? This is a good year and a half. Oh, wow. Good year and a half. Wow. And Ramadan came along and he would stall and stall the process. And I would keep saying So I was just buying time. Every time they would call me, I would say, I'll come with my passport. I'll come. I'll come. I'll come. And I just kept, like, my lawyer is trying to do her stuff in in at the same time. And also I would make use of their laws. Like, you know, in, like, in in Dubai a policeman can't take you to the police station after, I think it's 6 pm,

without a female escort or something like that. So I would refuse. They came to my house to try and get me and I said, I'm sorry my dad's not here and he's my mehram in Islam. He's like your guardian. Yeah. You can't take me to the police station. There's not a woman they've got 4 men to come and take me to charge me with adultery or something. And I said, how There's no woman here so I can't come. Again, I saved myself from that situation.

very, very weird way of thinking that, you know, like, why do you want a divorce though? Okay. Who will you marry after? I'm like, what are you saying? God, this is No, I'm single. That's it. Literally the state of the police. So anyway, Tommy, last, last, like, last ditch attempt. I I make a call to the emergency number for British expats in Dubai was my last hope because I know in Dubai if you hand over your passport,

your your number, they don't know. And I needed at least the British consulate or someone to know, Hey, this is where they've taken Nuria, this is what they've done or this is what they're charging her with. Someone should be aware. So I called and this guy answered and I just gave him a 30 second run down. Get your ass here. I'm like, Yeah, he literally said, You got your passport in your hand? I was like, Yeah. He's like, Do not. Do not. Just

put your foot down and make your way to the airport where these stupid charges don't apply.' And my lawyer at the very same time ran in and she's like, 'Get out of here. They're trying to charge you with the highest level of things and they're gonna make your life miserable. She's like, Forget the divorce. That was the first time I heard her say, because she was trying to fight for me and say, we'll get you divorced. That's the first time I heard her say, forget the divorce. Just get it to safety. Get out of it. Yeah.

So came my To Baku? Azerbaijan. Okay. Oh my god. Tommy, like, it was so when I got to the airport,

when they scanned my passport, the alarm went off. And I was like, that's it, that's it. The police are gonna come get me. And put you back. Yeah. And then the woman was like, I was like, what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong? Can I get on the plane? At least that's like more international territory. And she was like, oh, I'm sorry. And then I was like, what? And she's like, is it okay if you get moved to the front of the plane? And I was like, shoot. They're gonna come get me because I don't they won't make a scene. They can arrest me from the front. And I was like, yeah, I was so just wanting to get on the plane and get off Dubai airport territory. I was like, yeah, yeah, sure. Put me in the front. Got in the front and realized I'd been upgraded to business class. She put a white cloth on me, gave me some champagne, and my mom's like, Are the wheels off the runway? Are the wheels off the runway?

So I was writing, I got therapy, amazing therapy. Did Jeff leave you've left your job then. You've left your life. I actually might. The job was they were so nice, the company I was working for in Dubai. They they they would see me go leave work and go to court and put in a buyer on and come back stressed. They would see me go through this. My manager was like even I flew like, when I flew to London, he was like, do what you gotta do for your safety. It's not a problem. Just and they were so flexible and I really do Western company. Western company. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Okay. But then I then I started writing and I was like trying to understand what had what had happened to me. And then I thought, how do I tell my story? Like, what's happened? And how can I How old are you at this point?

25?

And then obviously, finally, I had access to a free internet. I didn't need to use VPN. I could access Islamic sources. I started thinking, how do I defend Sharia against me? And I thought, if this is God's law, surely it's come from the Quran itself. Because I'd studied Islamic law at university, so I knew Sharia was derived from the Quran itself. And so I thought,

let me read what Again, I'd studied law, right? So I was like, let me read how they could take that from the Quran and put that law on me. And then it was the first time, Tommy, I actually read the Quran in English as an adult. Not in just, like, to be mystified but to be, like, from like a critical mind. So what's God saying? What the hell is God ordering? And as soon as I read it I was like, Oh, I get it. Even I could do that to me using that verse.

where it comes from. And in Egypt and Tunisia, they've had these discussions, like, when there's, like, an Islamic ruling. Scholarly discussion. Yeah. Like a j'man, a consensus on what disobedience means and entails. So this was quite What does it mean anything? Literally. Answering back, not looking at you properly, anything. Anything.

So anything covers disobedience and much of a punishment. I remember it's merely fear. It doesn't even have that doesn't even have to have taken place. He has fear of disobedience. Yeah. Yeah. So you might disobey him. Yeah. And you can't have a legitimate. Yeah. Oh, he's paranoid. He's got a feeling you might disobey him. That's enough.

or balance out. Yeah. So I was like okay if this is Allah which is ridiculous, Allah can't mess up. But if this is Allah messing up or giving the the room for this to happen in the Quran, surely Mohammed maybe must have come and, you know, just fix this up a little bit to save women or protect women a bit more. And then I went to the hadith and I, like you were saying, I was flabbergasted, I felt sick, I was shocked,

I felt betrayed. I felt lied to. And I was in my other grandma's house and in front of me there was an Allah sign and a Muhammad sign. And I just remember, like, looking up and thinking, this will never, ever, ever be the same. And then automatically you feel like you're in The Truman Show because everyone around you is is immersed in this and you've realized what this could be. So I remember for the first time searching, is Islam the truth on the

Internet? And then I woke up to this world of, like, ex Muslims, ex Muslims in North America, Council of Ex Muslims in Britain, there's people speaking out. But the only time I'd ever heard of somebody leave Islam was at university, outside my Islamic law module, when some this guy said to me, I'm I was Muslim but I left. And I thought he was was crazy. I literally was like, what's wrong with you? Who leaves?

And I'd never come across that again. I didn't even I couldn't even convey that you like, fathom the fact that you could leave. I didn't think that was an option. It's not an option. It's not an option technically. Yeah. That's true. It's absolutely not. Yeah.

people that Islam tells you to hate for example. That you naturally didn't really feel hateful but you held on to some hate because Islam told you to. So all of these things are dropping away which means your worldview is changing, your moral compass is changing but everybody around you is still very much, you know, in this bubble. And you feel like you feel like a walking zombie amongst them. But

thankfully, that's where, like, Twitter at the time came in very, very handy because I realized there were people out there saying their peace, and YouTube videos saved my life because I was like, I'm not alone and I I don't I'm I'm not crazy. Because in that moment you think, am I the only one that realized Islam is absolute sham? It's a con? And we've he's been conning people for 1400 years but people spend their lives dedicated They live and die within this con.

That's wild to me. And am I the only person that's, like, stepped outside of the matrix? You do feel that for a while. And I think that's why it's so important to, like, know that there's ex Muslims out there. This is a thing. We exist. It's not crazy to have these thoughts, and there's a community.

who has, like, videos of how jihad and ISIS and all these things come directly from the scripture. That was enough for me. I don't know why I just needed that reassurance that an Arabic speaker is also saying what I am saying. He gets it. Yeah. He gets it. If he gets it, then I'm not He's not misinterpretating the Quran. Exactly. Exactly. But then, obviously and then apostate prophet, Haris Sultan, all of these people who were, like, you know, crucial in being

like the, I guess, some of the most prominent voices out there first to be like, it's okay. And tackling, like, the strong ones. Like tackling the Mohammed hijabs, Ali Adarwa, Pakistani Muslims who are insanely fanatical. So I guess there was enough, like, power in numbers.

And he's like, But why ex Muslim? And I was like, I need to use that label just if it's for a particular purpose. It serves a purpose right now. And you might not like it, but I I must use it. And then Why? Did did so did you try and say

let me just talk to you. Come to I only live there. So I went to her house. She's been hiding there for like 7 years. She's only from Hemorrhabstain. Yeah. She'd been hiding there because she left Islam. And I I met a boyfriend who was an English lad.

I met him and he said, we've watched all your videos. We've been watching everything. This was at the time of the English defense league. She spoke to me about her life as an ex Muslim in in hiding. Yeah. Because she believes her brothers and her family would murder her. Wow. How do we What's your opinion as an ex Muslim? You've obviously met a lot of ex Muslims in the UK.

There's no organized Get out for them. There's no You know, if you want to leave a far right group, there's all these heavily funded organizations who will come in and help you leave that organization. Yeah. If you want to leave a gang, there's massively funded organisations that support you through that process, that help you move to safe houses.

If you're a Muslim and you're sitting there in a densely populated Muslim community that's extreme and you want to express your freedom in Great Britain, how does one do that? Do you know of any groups that help? Do you know if there's any government funded help to leave Islam policies that would fund and support safe houses for ex Muslims?

who knows what kind of police officer you've got, what his thoughts are, all of that kind of jazz. But, I guess the Council of Ex Muslims Britain is an organization that I felt like there's there's one, I guess, institution here that is set up with that in the title. And if you look at the website, Tommy, there's 1,000 and thousands of people who have signed up to it. But that's it. Safer because they need safer. Yeah. We have no we have no protocols. They need

But really, the police are reactive, right, as opposed to proactive. So no matter what's happening, no matter the amount of threats, death threats that any of us, like, activists or people, receive, the police are just like, okay, cool. Well, we can't really do anything until something's happened to you. So really you're just sitting ducks for if something was to ever happen to you because there's no mechanisms to safeguard you in the interim.

It's it's more of a it's a free for all and obviously Muslim council should the ex Muslim

We'll break my family. I think you've been quite lucky by the sounds of your mom and dad. Yeah. They still talk to you. Yeah. About your brothers and sisters. Yeah. They we we we get on very, very well. And I think

I don't know if you've read the story yesterday. It's just in Sweden. The young girl who was pregnant. Do you read it? No. No. Her Somali boyfriend just strangled her to death through honor because she wasn't a Muslim because she wasn't a Muslim. But I always think of I've always spoke about I've always spoke about Muslims attacking non Muslim women. Yeah. There was a girl,

I hope you don't mind me naming her. Will I name her? But there's a girl who's going out of a Pakistani and looting, a white girl. She end up living with him in his house. She used to wear the full niqab. Yeah. Beautiful girl as well. She's wear the full niqab. She end up getting about 8 years for heroin. They all did. And,

when Lee Rigby got killed, she contacted me and said, Tom, yeah reacts. Yeah. Because I've grown up with her. She said, I need to speak out. I need to speak out. I said, okay. And I wanna meet her and she wants to speak out for the Pakistani women.

She said, what you don't get, Yaks. You see in every house, there's a woman there with no passport. Mhmm. So she was telling me the story of Lewton. Like she was his wife. Yeah. My friend, the girl I know. Yeah. She she's gone on to have a great life now. Yeah. But the best thing that happened was getting a ton for heroin, madly. But she was, he used to batter her in one room and then walk in and beat the Pakistani woman. The difference is Pakistani woman didn't have a passport. Couldn't speak English. Yeah. Yeah. So he told the store She told me the story of how many women are in these houses

in towns like Luton who are Muslim girls brought up as Muslim and stuck in this country and stuck in stuck in a life of slavery who there's no help for. Is the would you in your knowledge growing up, you've been abroad, but are you in any knowledge that there's Muslim women being treated in this way in the UK that don't have a get out for help either because of the honor, because of the the danger?

because they know that they're not gonna be able to get by here. So some of these women I speak to have been here for a year and a half, Tommy. They've been sleeping in like what you would call like a little storage room. K. Literally bought here to be for domestic servitude.

There's no marriage. There's no love. There's none of that involved. They don't even I'd ask these women sometimes, like, where, especially if they call if they, like, call us when the the perpetrator's out. So they're trying to plan an escape and I, you know, just do little things like, 'Can you get to the nearest police station? Can you get to your nearest bus stop?' You take the 85 bus to here. They don't know how to read the signs or how to, you know, do anything. And some of them go, are completely,

fall through the cracks. It's only the ones that get spotted or seen or they've got a friend that takes control and calls a number or something that that we're able to help them.

I said, you don't think, but what do you know? Like seriously, what do you know? Yeah. He said, I don't know anything, professor. I don't know anything. I said, but you're willing to defend it. I find it mad. Yeah. So in your experience, you've got to 26. As I said, you're a very intelligent girl. Your imam Your your granddad's an imam. You've lived in Saudi, but you had no knowledge, true knowledge of the agenda, should I say,

of Islam. How many other Muslims are there out there? Do you think in this country, in this country especially, who are blindly defending something they have little knowledge about? How many because most Muslims most people think, well, they know everything about their religion because Emerson.

You are 26, didn't know really much. Yeah. And you you're from a very strong conservative background. So how many in your opinion how many Muslims out there in your opinion do you think are just defending this without the knowledge of what it is?

because you consciously decided to, you know, want that term because you don't want to be extreme. Moderate, genuinely I would say don't know. Like I would say my own family don't know, to be honest. The depths of it. I'd As you said, I did not know. You went down the rabbit hole. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's the case for most people. So you do blindly defend it because even even Islam TV and stuff that gets broadcast here on Sky, I've I've been dealing with it during Ramadan and I I can see how they cherry pick hadiths to show Muslims they're like, just nice little things here and there. You never talk about, you know, what Mohammed's done when he's gone into battle or the other, you know, ills of his personal life and that's really morally questionable. They never show any of that. And as you said, you're right. I went through the whole, technically, the whole system

of being brought up as a Muslim not knowing basic facts of Islam. Even how it was spread.

That's also a form of jihad. And I'm honestly not trying to fear monger, but this is how the Islamic ideology, like, works. That there's there's jihad on various fronts. You know, it it I'm sure you're aware, Tomi, people do jihad, you know, using drugs as well. Chemical jihad. Chemical jihad. Economic

And then you break down onto a societal level. Is this personal jihad? Is it something you're doing in your personal life? Is it economic jihad? Is it a jihad via migration? Is it jihad by birth rates? All of these factors come into play. And you see that with, like, the the, Dawa the Dua gangs here and even, like,

some of the Islamic commentators. They're they're not even if they're speaking, if you read between the lines, they're they're not accepting the the law of the land here. They happily say,

which is the non Islamic house, and the house of God, which is the Islamic house. Yeah. And I get this I go on to this point from the question of the grooming gang. Yeah. I'd like to get your opinion on it. Because the verses in the Quran that state when at war,

they can take non Muslim because I've had Muslim commentators I've debated with and they said, no. That's That's only when at war. Yeah? Well, if you got the house of war and house of God Yeah. And we're in the house of war, you are. And all a Muslim and maybe they don't. All a Muslim has to do to justify his actions in Rochdale, Rotherham, or one of those cities. All he has to do to justify amongst the community and family is we're at war.

This is a non Muslim country. We do what we want. What's your what's your what's your view on the grooming scandal?

the the things that these girls were told by the police when they were actually reporting it. Like, I read verbatim what the police's response were in terms of, like, Oh, that girl was a lost cause anyway. She's a druggie. Or, This girl had a low bar for men. Or, This girl liked hanging around Asian men anyway. Like, she bought it on herself. Willing prostitute. Prostitute. Words like that that were used. I would say it's definitely one of the biggest,

police failings in our time to protect these women. And if you listen to the stories of of, the victim survivors of that, they actually say this is beyond just, like, you know, even, like, rape gangs and stuff. This is grooming, but they operate like terrorist style networks to, to to, like, carry this out. And I've always felt as a Muslim, even when I was a Muslim woman, I have always felt, that the outlook for Muslim men towards non Muslim men sorry, non Muslim women

it's it's shameful. It's already and I think the Quran allows for this as well because non Muslim women, technically according to Islam, are fair game for you, in these situations. Because the Quranic verse about veiling,

actually says that tell your oh, oh, believing Muslims, tell your women to cover To differentiate. So that they are not molested or harassed. And who's not covered? The non Muslim women. So they can be harassed and molested. And this is exactly what I say even when, like I was talking about swathes of immigration come in, legal immigration. The first people they prey on are these white women, so to speak, because they think, oh,

you know, that their culture allows for it. And I'm sorry to say but in their minds they think, oh, these are easier targets.

the only women that they're ever grabbing in the cell and then raping is non Muslim women? How come no muslim women and the muslims would argue, well, because our women aren't out at night. Our women aren't walking the streets. Would you say it's more that that with the with the outlook you've seen of their view of non Muslim women, have you personally seen that growing up from Muslim men? A negative view of Muslim of non Muslim women?

context, like, behind of the religion behind that. But I did look into it as well because I wondered, is was this predominantly their target? Because it seems so disproportionately, like, you know, white English girls that they target. Like, it's it's like almost they're preying on these vulnerable young women. And then obviously, I read there was there was a few examples of Asian women also being

groomed and caught up in this. And Sikh women. And Sikh women. Exactly. Again, non Muslim. You're right. A 100%. But, yeah. Again, the justifications very, very few. Fewer Asian women and, again, they're non Muslim, but the justification is still there because,

white women would be their target predominantly. And they don't shy away from that. So if if we see those numbers being much, much higher, it's because even there's even hadiths which talks about, like, capturing sex slaves that have blonde hair. So it's dark, Islamically.

As I was saying to you before, like even being in the UK, I've had to change my way of life a lot. I keep my name off certain things. Like, you know, you're careful of the areas you

go and spend time in. You're careful of the people you hang out with. You have to take a lot of precautions, which in this day and age, it's sad that you still have to. But and it's sad that there's parts of London or the UK that are completely written off because, you know, I was driving from the Lake District back to London one day and I passed through Bradford and my radio I was listening to like KISS FM or something and the radio actually changed to Hajj FM by itself.

And it was like an all around me, I just saw Muslims and I was really not dressed appropriately either. And I was like, shoot, one wrong turn here and I'm stuck. I could not wait to get out of there. But yeah, it it it's mad. How mad is it that as a woman,

I was watching a stand up for Brick A Javets and he's like yeah I can make fun of leprechauns. I'd never make fun of, terrorists though. I wouldn't go there. And I'm like yeah you know even like this is like picking a fight with craziest of the crazies. So initially I got a few and that was gonna put me off and I thought, 'Should I even do this? Is it worth it?' And I remember reaching out to Mariam Namazi who was

the founder of Council of Exposons Britain And I just messaged her about my safety and I said, Look, I'm also in London. Do you think this is worth it? Do you think it's safe enough? And she honestly wrote back a very heartfelt email saying, 'Take your time, think about it, but if you can, by all means, like, use your voice.' And I was like, Yeah, I refuse to be afraid. In like you're saying it's ridiculous. I refuse to to give in to that.

spurred me on to go harder. Yeah. I think I actually, I'm very I I like to be anyway quite, like, you know, balanced in my approach because I don't want whatever we've got, I don't wanna ruin a good thing and come too hard. And also I don't want to, like, have myself killed tomorrow. So, I pick and choose what I say when I say it. But I think it is just Honestly, Tommy, once you've realized what it is, how dark Islam is,

that it's it can't be called a religion. It can't be just classified as some spiritual bunch of customs that you're doing between you and your God. It is it's literally like a political ideology. It it's absolutely to the detriment of women. It ruins children's lives. It ruins everyone's lives that it comes into contact with unless you succumb and bend to its will.

And if you realize something is that big of a con and that dangerous that generations of my family and people around me have spent their lives and died. Saying the Shahada as their final words before they died, that makes me sick. They've not lived life to the fullest. So

I just think it's high time someone needs to speak and just generational change needs to happen. And if one person in a Muslim family breaks the fold, like I told you my siblings the knock on effect, hopefully we can save a generation. If this is women leaving Islam, they are in charge of the next generation. If they're having children, they'll raise them free of this Islamic mindset, and that's I think that's reason enough for me to speak and take this risk.

the chickens are now coming home to roost. So politicians have to grow, more of a backbone. And we've got to tackle it. Like, the way that domestic violence is treated as, like a national emergency. Terrorism is treated as a national emergency. But, but, like, radicalization should be treated. I mean,

I was happy to hear my mom's a teacher and she was saying in school now, even in primary schools, they're telling teachers to look out for the early signs of radicalization. They're probably looking for bloody someone mentioning Tommy Robinson. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Doing the car. That's the problem.

what everything you're talking about is the core structure of Islam. Mhmm. Not Exactly. But you don't wanna criticize Islam. You wanna like, it's okay now to be against Islamism.

against all migrants, what what message would you have to those people? About yourself, you're a great British citizen. You've left Islam. You're speaking out. You're taking a risk. But to those to those people who say, you're not British.

cohesive, well, we shouldn't be cohesive, but a cosmopolitan multi multicultural society that we are. Obviously, the UK has been, Britain's been responsible for a lot of world history. It's tied into so many countries, historically speaking. It's it's it's political in a political sense, in a historical sense, the Commonwealth. So we are a melting pot here in the UK.

And I think there is anybody that's actively seeking to work against that. Sure, you can you can question their Britishness, but anybody who is kinda working here for the betterment of society to protect people, to safeguard our values, which I think are shared values, I don't think we should isolate them or ostracize them because of, you know, I don't know, whether it's racist elements or an immigrant background or what have you.

And we shouldn't conflate, like, all illegal immigrants with, you know, a genuine, good immigrant experience. Somebody who's assimilated and somebody who has, yeah, just just has, you know, fit and well to this country and is giving back to this country. I think there's a lot of people who fit into that category, and they would proudly call themselves British.

And it's a sexualization of children. Islam answers a lot of the problems around that. A lot of people are pushing to Islam because it's very strong in its values. There's lots of people converting to Islam. Andrew Tate, there's people who are going to Islam as they see as as a strong answer to solve the degeneracy and the problems that we as a we as a country face as well. What would you say to that to that?

still a bunch of other people gravitate towards because they think other ideologies or systems are weaker. For example, they say Christianity is too weak. At least Islam stands up for itself. Yep. But it's in no way a solution to and this is the thing. When people, really, really, you know, go towards Islam, they they use that. Rightly, as you said, they think that, oh, but their argument is look at the how degenerate the West is. Look at divorce rates. This is a dangerous argument that's going on in me because it's attracted a lot of people to Islam.

Absolutely. Absolutely dangerous argument because you you don't know you're getting into bed with another beast and a beast that's far, far, far uglier and will take away fundamental rights of yours that, you know, you want to hold sacrosanct. They're absolutely gone under Islam. So, yeah, it might seem like a solution because it's more aggressive and it's, the the way it lays itself out, but it absolutely is not a solution. It would be chaos.

was in Saudi Arabia and I blindly, you know, was chanting free Palestine and had the free Palestine scarf. And I was part of that entire movement. Movement. And to be honest, I didn't really know why. I just that's what the Muslims were doing and that's what Saudi Arabia's position was and that's what my parents' position was. Therefore, that was my position.

So having actually looked into the historical context of things a bit more, and undoing all the antisemitism that I naturally just had in me from being a Muslim. The Jews were to blame for a lot of things. I bought into so many conspiracies. And it's so I feel so bad for even, like, ever having thought this. But, you know, all the conspiracies that you hear, the most far fetched things about Jews, a lot of Muslim families hold those to be true.

They control the media. They control the banks. They're, you know, they're responsible for everything that's gone wrong. Again, even the popular picturizations we see of them physically even, Muslims really, really, have a negative outlook on them. And again, this is completely from religion.

So yeah, I definitely do now take a more holistic approach and I think Israel definitely has a right to defend itself, obviously in the best way possible to minimize casualties and, you know, safeguard innocent lives in Gaza. But Hamas is Hamas and they you read their charter, it's straight out of the Islamic textbook. Jews shouldn't exist. Israel shouldn't exist. We don't want peace until it's all, you know, all ours. Because they're all dead. Yeah.

is realizing, oh, shit. Yes. Yes. About to lose the Muslim vote. Mhmm.

things like that in a more, you know, out there approach. So, yeah, we shall see. It's a big one coming up. But even, like, local elections and, you know, Sadiq Khan, Hamza Yousef, all all these people in power, which I deem to be soft Islamists of a kind, you've gotta work to,

the migration crisis and things like that, I think he's got a strong mind in terms of putting those things into practice. I think we're faffing around with what Rishi's trying to do. It's just like this whole He's not doing shit. Exactly. This is just this is just it's a nightmare what's been happening. So I think we do need strong leadership at the helm, but somebody who is, you know, has actually has got the guts to confront what we're dealing with here. I think even with,

you know, Sajid Jawa with the position he held as home secretary when he dealt with Shahmin Bigham in his mind, that was like a very, you know, that was utterly the right thing to do. And he says, If you'd seen what I had seen, you wouldn't question my decision whatsoever. And whether you agree with him or not, I think that's the kind of leadership that we need, like, somebody who has a strong enough mind like that. But I can't really vouch for any of these people, wholeheartedly. So

tells you, like in the words of Christopher Hitchens, he says it makes Islam makes like, grandiose claims for itself, which it does. So the Quran is the perfect word of God. It's not even got that wiggle room or leeway like the Bible does to be inspired. It is verbatim, the word of God. So how do you reform the word of God without destroying God himself or itself as a concept? So Islam

doesn't really have that wiggle room because the whole thing will crumble if you try and change something that's been fixated from that long ago and is is entrenched in that 7th century, you know, Bedouin culture. But it tells you that it's an eternal, timeless, infallible, immutable ideology. So there's no scope for reform there. There's scope for Muslims reforming,

in in terms of their behaviors and their attitudes and their mindset, which would also make them acknowledge that that means we've gotta, you know, at least say that that doesn't fit in this day and age or, you know, that's not applicable anymore. But I think deradicalization is process that we need to undertake in this country as, like, a national crisis. So If we should rename it, because when we talk about deradicalization,

words about Islam or the problems of it. What could you say to them? Because they're not convinced The problem I might have is I try and talk about these issues because of my history, because I've had a run an organization, because I walk a certain way and talk a certain way. People don't want to accept what I'm saying. What would you say to them about the dangers from not not understanding and not actually addressing the Islamic issue?

I feel like sometimes actually, like, your Islamic knowledge is is pretty good as well. You can tell you've spoken to, you know, the Salafis, the Wahvis, the Shias, the Sunnis. You have you have more of an understanding than many Muslims do, I would say. But, yeah, when it comes to your criticism of Islam, not Muslims, Islam, Like

So no, voices are And again, it's sad if this is like a class thing or whatever it is, you know, or trying to malign you for various reasons. But it doesn't mean that what you're saying on Islam is, it's not applicable. It is absolutely applicable. I've heard your critiques.

I've heard you listen to the apologist arguments as well and and challenged them back. And I would say as somebody who's grown up in the faith, been surrounded by it, lived in Saudi, left it, there's nothing about Islam that you're saying that is blown out of proportion. It is that much of a fundamental threat to our society, and it is that much of a dark, twisted ideology that you need to counter it constantly.

If you want to help me along that way, it's not free. I need your support. If you can support my family,

that gives me my peace of mind. It means I can continue to do the work I do. I appreciate every bit of support as do my children, gives me the ability to fly them out here to see me so I can stay in constant contact with them. I'm the platform and I'm censored so I need you I need you to share this content, and make sure you stay tuned for upcoming weekly guests, interesting guests, exciting guests. I'm Tom Robson, and this has been my podcast silenced.