Hey, everyone. Welcome to the 12th episode of Baseline Intelligence, the podcast designed to make you a better tennis player and a smarter athlete. I'm your host, Jonathan Stoke. Our guest today is legendary junior developmental coach Rick Macy. He's a seven-time USPTA National Coach of the Year and has coached five world number ones, including Andy Roddick, Jennifer Capriati, Maria Sharapova,
and Venus and Serena Williams. In part one of our interview, we talk about his first trip to Compton, California to see the Williams sisters, what he learned from both Venus and Serena, what a good tennis parent looks like, and much more. So sit back, relax, and prepare to become a smarter tennis player. All right, Rick, welcome to the pod. Nah, I'm glad to be here. I'm off the court and ready to go.
You know, I know you're a busy man. We scheduled this about a month ago and your life has been crazy with the success of King Richard. And, you know, you're still spending 50 hours on the court. I just did 50 hours on the court this week. And it feels like I'm going to die. I want to know where you get your energy and passion from. Well, you know, first off, great question. A lot of people ask me that. And I've been.
wired like this ever since i was a kid you know and uh even kids like people i grew up with you know i just they just i was always on the go first one there last one to leave just always um just always had that energy and you know then when i got into obviously tennis and coaching if you if you have the passion uh which i do it just brings even more energy
You know, so at the end of the day, you know, I can't wait to get to work. I can't wait to get on the court. I like it when it's 100 degrees out. I don't like it when it's cold. So, no, it's just I've just always been that way. You know, it's just the way I'm wired. My sisters like that a little bit, but not that much. But I've always been like that. Even people that I grew up with say, wow, he's like.
The guy hasn't changed at all. You know, even when I play basketball or even when I play tennis and, you know, I care about others more than myself. And that comes across in the teaching. But if you love what you do, you're going to have passion and that alone is going to. you know, portray a lot of energy. I don't have to get motivated. I'm just all in every time that, you know, I step on the court or anything that I do.
When you speak about the passion of working with a kid or sometimes an adult, what is it about that coach-player relationship that kind of motivates you and brings you the joy? Well, yeah, you know, and this is what people don't understand. You know, they see all these people that I've coached, you know, Venus, Serena, Capriati, Roddick, Sharapova, Kennan, Moschina.
Christian Rood, Casper's dad, Alami, I could go on and on, or people that have won nationals, you know, it's like, or All-American, there's just, and that's really not even my favorite student. you know it's really who's on the other side of the net that hour that minute that second and that's the way i've always been it doesn't matter if it's a 30 year old adult
or the number one 80 year old guy in the country who I had a lesson with, by the way, or someone top 10 in the world. It's just the way that I go about doing it. So it has nothing to do with. Well, I want them to do this or that. I just want everybody to be the best they can be. And I think people feel that coming from the heart and genuineness and the way I try to find a way to connect the dots.
whether it be mentally or technically or biomechanically or whatever I got to do. It's a whole medley of things when I give a lesson and people that come to get certified, they're just blown away. They're going, I had no idea it was like this, you know, even if they played.
Grand Slam tournaments. Some of these guys are just like stunned how you deal with the parents and all this stuff. So to answer your question, you know, you're a role model, you're a teacher, you're a father figure or whatever. And.
but i don't try to do that that's what's good about it just kind of the way it is and you know a lot of people want their kids around that type of person then if you know what you're doing and you've had success uh it just brings more people that want to you know come and work with you so rick can you you know can you kind of elaborate you you've had a lot of success with the you know the recent movie king richard and there's been a spotlight on your work with the williams sisters
Can you kind of elaborate on how that got started, how you got connected with them, and how they got the ball rolling with those two champions? Yeah, you know, I got this call one day from Richard Williams, and really nice guy, funny, you know, and... He told me they live in Compton. He has two daughters. An agent told me about Venus. She was like undefeated in the 10 and under, whatever that means. Both of us know that means nothing.
you know i had capriati so my blueprint for greatness was probably better than anybody in the world because jennifer as a 12 year old won the girls 18 national clay court and hard court think about that That that's never going to happen again. That's a record in 1988 that still stands today. And I had Tommy Ho win the 18th as a 15 year old in 88. So I had the daily double and that those records still stand today.
So from that, he probably figured I kind of knew what was going on a little bit. So that's why he called me. And he wanted me to look at his kids. He said, we live in Compton. I promise you won't get shot. You want to come and visit. And I never go, I would never do that. either see them at a junior tournament or they come to the academy. So I just figured I was kind of curious. Okay. So I booked the flight. I went to California.
Obviously, looking back, the best the best vacation ever took of my life was Compton, California. OK, so I don't think a lot of people could say that. So I go to the hotel that night. Richard or seen Venus and Serena. Come there, just like yesterday, Venus on one leg, Serena on the other, arms around the father, hugging and kissing, just like you see in the movie, okay? And Richard...
Pulls out a piece of paper and starts grilling me like I was in a deposition, you know, and he's asking me all these questions. But I kind of respected it because if he wanted someone in their circle, I think they had a lot of. acquaintances maybe, but not friends. He wanted a role model, a father figure, and someone who's been there, done that. So I respected that he's asked me all these questions. So after about two hours, he goes, all right, we're going to practice tomorrow at seven o'clock.
We'll pick you up tomorrow in front of the hotel. So I get out there at 7 o'clock. That same bus you see in the movie, exact same bus, picks me up. It's wobbling. Listen to this. I get in the passenger side. I get harpooned in the buttock. There was a spring sticking up. I look in the back. There's Venus and Meek. I call her Meek, Serena Jameika Williams. I never called her Serena even when I trained her. They're back in the back like that.
There's about four months worth of McDonald's wrappers. There's dirty clothes, ball hoppers. It was a train wreck, okay? And I'm sitting there going, what in God's name am I doing in Cobden, California? It was like I was in a movie. And remember, I'm at Greenleaf Golf and Tennis Resort. I'm at a five-star resort, director of tennis, Miracle in the Orange Grove. You know, I had all these kids that were there, Tommy, Jennifer. And, you know, I built something that was very unique back then.
So now we get in a bus and he goes, we're going to East Compton Hills Country Club. So we start going to the club and about 10 minutes in, I'm looking around, I'm going. This is a strange place for a country club. We pull up to a park. Listen to this stuff. We pull up to a park. We get out. There's people. There's guys shooting hoop. About 7.30 in the morning. They're shooting hoop. Guys smoking.
drinking, passed out in the grass. We get out. They go, hey, Richard. Now, this is 1999. Hey, King Richard. They call this guy King Richard. How ironic is this. They go, hey, VW. Venus Williams. Hey, Meek, because the New York Times was there two months earlier, probably had all this publicity and they were kind of taking care of those two little girls and Richard. We go across the basketball court. It parts like the Red Sea.
Like these kids are celebrities. And this is, I'm just sitting there going, this is insanity. We go onto the court and I had a box of Wilson balls shipped to the court. He goes, Rick. We don't use new balls. I want old balls. I want them digging, bending them out. I'm sitting there going, I got it, but it was a little different. We go on the court. You and I wouldn't play on it. Okay, we go to the net post.
That same cart you see in the movie, not the exact same cart, but that shopping cart you see in the movie, Richard had like seven chains wrapped around it. He looks at me, goes, Rick, I got to secure it. It won't be here in the morning. So I'm just sitting there. It took him like 25 minutes to get the chains off. He takes all the old balls. OK, there might have been a couple of T-shirts going there with it. So I start drilling Venus and Serena. Now, Venus was like about 5'9".
Serena was still quite mature and smaller. And remember, I had Capriati. All right. Amazing fundamentals by the late, great Jimmy Everett. Racket back in the parking lot. Low center of gravity. tremendous balance. The ball's on a string. So, you know, my blueprints differ than anybody in the world just from that experience. So we start doing drills and I'm just going, this is crazy. They're not that good.
arms, legs, hair, beads flying off their head, improvised city, and I'm thinking they might be 70, 80, 100 a nation, which we see all the time, and that's whatever. I mean, that's something. It's just not like, wow. So that went on for about an hour and they were just kind of walking around and it was just, it was a mess, a train wreck. And I told him that at the red carpet when we got back together. So then I said,
I want to play competitive points. Me and Serena were going to play against Venus, even though Venus could kill her at that time. So the minute I said, let's play competitive points, and this is a great lesson. For any coach, you know, me or you, or any parent, never judge a book by its cover. The cover could be amazing, the book bad. The cover bad, the book amazing. The minute I said, game on.
The whole landscape changed. They started popping the popcorn, extra butter. The preparation got better. I mean, it wasn't world class, but it got better. But the burning desire. The burning desire to get to the ball, it blew me away. There was like a rage. There was a rage inside these two little kids I never saw. It was almost borderline frightening.
They ran so hard to get to a ball, they almost fell down. Now, we both had kids try real hard. They could be working at McDonald's. That doesn't mean they're going to be good. But I never saw two people try so hard to get to a ball. When we said competition, it changed everything. It just showed me they were almost like bulletproof. When the bell rung, there was something different inside of these two kids. Now I'm thinking in my mind.
six feet, 160, 5'11", 145. This is where the mind goes. My mind as a coach, I always project for the future, not the moment. And I tell people what you may see is different than Rick may see. So that being said, I go to Richard. I said, Richard, come here. And this is in the movie. I go, let me tell you something, because it was more about Venus. I said.
You got the next female Michael Jordan on your hand. And he puts his arm around me, goes, no, brother, man, I got the next two. And so after that, Venus goes, daddy, can I go to the bathroom? They were hugging and kissing. Close-knit family, just like you see in the movie. Venus goes out the gate, walks on her hands for five feet, does backward cartwheels. And I'm going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now I'm thinking, now remember, this was 1999.
If you were big and strong in women's tennis, you weren't nimble. I thought they could bring a whole different athlete. Forget the African-American stuff. I thought they could bring a whole different athlete. So now I'm thinking not only could these kids. be number one in the world, they can transcend the sport. This is where my mind was at. They needed crazy technical help and financial backing. But what I saw on the outside, I didn't see it.
But once we started competing, I made this judgment. And I took this big gamble of what I saw on the inside. And it was the best bet I ever made in my life. Richard was obviously a super integral part of their development along with you as a guiding coach and a common topic that comes up with me with both.
other parents and coaches is the crazy tennis parent, right? And what should the role of a tennis parent be? Can you elaborate on some of the things Richard did that you thought were helpful and greatly contributed to the success of his daughters? Okay, yeah, anybody that, first off, great question. I hope a lot of parents are taking notes here. If anybody saw the movie, you know, the guy was kind of out of control, very stubborn.
I tell people just for putting up with that guy, I should be in the Hall of Fame for four years. I mean, I should get coach a year for that. But no, listen, he was my best friend. And Venus and Serena were like my own daughters. You got to understand. It was different with Richard because every day he was teaching them life lessons. Every single night when they left the court, good, bad, happy, sad. Rick, thank you very much. This is things people don't know.
Every day, they brought their books to the court. And if it rained, get up to Rick's office and study. The life lessons that this guy and Orsene too, but that he was always teaching his daughters. I respected him so much as a father. And that trumped the insanity that, you know, things he said or things he did or the games that he would play. Because I was there for Venus and Serena.
And the art of coaching is getting along with the parent now. And that's what I, you know, I train the parent as much as I do the kid. You know, I've had Capriati. I had Jim Pierce. I've had the people from outer space. I mean, you got to understand. This is the art to this, but he trumped everything by his heart was in the right place. He was more of a psychologist and a motivator and building confidence.
and he knew when to hug him, and he knew when to kind of kick him in the butt, okay? And it was always about the future. Unfortunately, the parents you deal with, and me too, they're calling balls and strikes every day. Every weekend's a Super Bowl. Come Monday, a bad loss. You know it's going to be brutal. You can feel the temperature of the parent, and they're so in the moment. And this is called junior development, not junior final destination. It's not where you start. It's where you finish.
And that's another thing in a movie. People think I freaked out because they didn't play tournaments. I was actually the one that didn't want them to play a lot. So come Monday, we're just, we're developing. When they're missing shot, I'm saying, well, Hingis would have got that or Steffi Graf gets that or Capriati would do this. I'm not talking about the 12 year old girl in New Jersey or, you know, the girl number one in the East or this is.
I looked at it and that's the way I talked to these kids. And Venus always told me, Rick, I was like brainwashed to be number one. You got to understand the environment I created. But this is all possible because Richard and I were on the same page. Because he respected that I was all in. But the parent who hasn't maybe played sports a little bit or they have no idea what this is about, here's the plan.
Get the best college scholarship you can. You're going to know at 17, especially in my case, you're going to go pro or you're going to go to college. And even then you can go to college and become a great pro. Daniel Collins, Isner, I could go on and on about that whole thing. So.
The parents should be supportive. They should be the best motivator. They don't know what's inside their child. The problem is their child's half the time not even playing. It's them playing. They think they're the child. they're probably they're probably like will smith when he slapped the guy that was richard you know who knows what that was all about so the parent needs to take a deep breath
The sun's going to come up tomorrow. You don't want it to create divorce. You don't want it to ruin family vacation. You can't do this. And this is the problem with the parents. You can't want your kid to be rougher and tougher. and more competitive and not be lazy and give a hundred percent and you're yelling and screaming at them then after practice you go to the mall and buy her a gucci bag that doesn't really make sense you know so you got to understand
The parent, it's a very tricky thing because the kid's always going to look at them like mom and dad. You got to be supportive and you got to be such a inspiration to them. But if you're the type of person that just keeps. belittling your kid and you know you got to ask yourself what would you have done at 12. some of these parents didn't even play they didn't try to hit it in the net on purpose they're not trying to lose the parents need to take a deep breath
But they got to be supportive. But they got to put themselves in their shoes before sometimes, you know, they open their mouth. And it's a little more difficult with dads and a girl because it's daddy's little girl. They're more protective. And they got to be careful.
Because you go down the yellow brick road, when they get their driver's license or they get a boyfriend or girlfriend, this thing can blow up because it's usually not the kid who burns out from losing. In my experience, it's the parent. You spend a lot of time on court and you're very famous for your technical work. But speaking about parents still, do you take time with kids that you work with a lot to actually coach the parents on?
on those things we just spoke about and how to make them an integral, positive part of the team? Absolutely. Listen, every parent that every kid I give a lesson to the parents right there, it doesn't matter if they're number one in the nation. OK, well, except for on the pro tour, the parents not maybe their coach. So I work with a lot of girls and they have a coach, but I'm part of a management team where I kind of do my thing. Yeah, the parents right there. The way I talk to the kid.
And the parent, they get the message. And, you know, if you ever read that letter from Richard Williams, you know, it kind of says it all. I think it's on YouTube somewhere, the letter he wrote me. So, yeah, I try to train the parent. But here's the deal. at the end of the day whether it's you or me they're getting in the car they're going home they're closing the door you don't know what's going on you know so that's family
And they can, I have people, I promise, I promise, I listen. And the next day they're psychotic again. So I've just seen it all. But you know what? Instead of losing, I don't like get upset. I just say, I got to find another button to push. Another door to go through. That's the art of coaching. And this is how I coach, not just the mental part. It's easy just after a while. You don't listen. You're crazy. I don't want to coach you anymore. I've gotten to that point.
a couple times even with the number one player and you know if the father's abusive or whatever but very seldom do i do that i just keep digging in because the winner finds a way but educate and the parent and they all say they've just learned so much
And think about it. They're not going to listen to me. They're probably not going to listen to a lot of people. You've had this long career and you've already rattled off a couple of the champions that you've worked with. And we're speaking about Venus and Serena. I'm sure you pick up things from each player that you've worked with. What is the biggest lesson or thing that you learned from working with Venus specifically? First off, that's a great question. And no one's asked me that.
Venus was really like my own daughter because she was much better than Serena. And I spent actually a lot more time with Venus than Serena. Okay. Even though I spent time with both of them. The biggest thing was not. to change things biomechanically that I wanted to. Okay. She refused to step into her backhand and I'm sitting there looking at this thing and I'm sitting there going.
OK, and she refused to keep the racket head above on the backhand. Just certain things I want her to do. Then as time went on, I'm thinking this isn't really a liability. You know, her contact point doesn't change. When she hits it down the line, she puts you in the freezer. What people think is wrong, I see as a weapon, you know, and I'm looking at this. Her recovery is quicker. Not that she needed it because she had these long legs. And I mean, when she hit everything, open stance.
she kind of taught me, especially when you're dealing with someone that athletic, there's not a wrong way. You've heard me say this many times or a right way. There's a better way. And so I really, you know, didn't mess with her backhand other than. tactically or strategically, okay, which I did a lot because she doesn't do the backhand like I want. Back then, I really didn't teach ATP forehand except with Roddy because I had them both at the same time. So that would be the main thing. Don't...
After time, she showed me, I'm looking at this as like deception, especially her open stance backhand down the line. You cannot read it. And I think it was down as one of the best, I'll say three shots in the history of women's tennis. You can't read it. And you've seen it for 15 years. When she hits that open stance down the line, you can't read it because her right hip goes one way and her hand, it's like crazy. And I was right all along. And a lot of people criticized me, USTA, people went.
PhD in biomechanics. Like, what is that? And I said, well, what you may see might be different than Rick may see because here's what I'm seeing. And she's putting a guy 400 in the world in the freezer. What's going to happen when she gets on the tour? So I looked at that differently. So that would be the number one thing. If it's not really broken at maybe a world-class level, just go with the flow. Great question.
Love that. And then I actually have the same question. Was there anything unique about Serena in a lesson that she may have taught you as well? Yeah. Serena, the one thing I loved about Serena more than anything. And that's what I saw early on. She was like a pit bull, okay? I tell her this all the time. When she got a hold of you, she wouldn't let go. But when people see her strokes...
Because I had video of her at 10, 11. Tens of thousands of parents have said, my kid's better than her. Not five, everybody. Because they're looking at the outside. And they don't look under the hood. But what I saw in Compton, I judged this all under the hood stuff. It wasn't on the outside. But Serena, it was even a little more than Venus. Because Serena was like, you know.
She's just so competitive. And so I knew, but she was like a prankster and she liked to mess around and she wasn't serious. You know, she wasn't serious. And she, cause she wasn't mature. You know, when you're 9, 10, 11, obviously the brain's not fully developed until later on in life. Some people it takes longer. Some people never. But, you know, I knew that with her. That she just.
But I did think early on, and I'll get into that later, that I thought Venus should have been better. And I'll get into why. But I knew Serena would mature later. Venus turned pro at 14. Serena, I think, at 16. So, but it was more the way she competed, even if the technical part took longer and her focus wasn't there. I knew where it was going to go. But the one thing that she didn't really teach me, but.
I knew this before, she had all the time in the world. And people don't know that. She had a lot more time than Venus, even at the net. It's an intangible thing, maybe like Brady in the pocket throwing a football. She always had more time. on top of all this athletic prowess that she was going to have. So, but she didn't, I guess if she taught me anything is don't judge a book by the cover because if I judged that book by the cover, I would have never read the book or bought it.
Is it fair to say, if you go back to your first trip to Compton and you talking about what's under the hood, is it fair to say that that competitiveness and that inner drive that a player has might be the most important element to becoming the best version of themselves? Absolutely. You know, whether you said it best, I didn't say becoming a world class pro, but I think that alone is going to help you in business, sports, life, whatever you do, because it's a package.
It's more of a package on the pro tour to become number one in the world. It's not just like, why did Sharapova become this or Roddy? You know, it's more of a package. You got to check a few of those boxes. Absolutely. And when they already have that baked in extra crispy. And Venus and Serena had that from birth. They had that from birth. They were like bulletproof. And I'm sure Richard saw that.
And that's why he kept saying these things, because on the outside, it was a train wreck. But on the inside, he had to, then he could see the speed and the quickness and where it was going to go, that part of it. So absolutely, because if you're. That competitive. And it's so deep. And I saw it in Roddick, even though he had limitations. All of us are competitive. You're going to handle pressure better.
Because you're all about the competition. You're not into all the other crap as much. Everybody chokes, get nervous, but you're going to handle pressure more. And that, when I saw that in them, especially being two little girls, and where the size was going to be.
And the speed and the quickness. And so you could just see I was projecting this. And whether it took four years or eight years, I was like on a mission to make it happen. So absolutely great question. And that's a great thing for parents. Make them.
the best competitor you can. Run for every ball. Never give up. Have a great attitude. You know, die for every point. You got to feel like you're going to die to win every point. If you're not checked in, you're checked out. You're not getting better. You're getting worse.
OK, and that's what the parents need to push instead of, oh, my kid won. OK, well, your kid won. Maybe the other kid was terrible. Even if you win the Orange Bowl, let's play the tournament again. I bet the results will be different. It's not going to be the exact same result a week later. Everybody's in this moment in time. So the parents, they're not going to look at it like me. You know, I always look at a much bigger picture, even though the moment's important, but absolutely.
That's what a parent should do. And any coach, if you have that, and even if you don't, you can instill that in people by having them train differently, run for every ball. Don't make excuses. Your job description is run, sweat, and shut up. Maybe not in that order with some kids. So it's this environment that you can create. Now, it's hard to get everybody to buy into it, but that's kind of what I do.
but in a way that I just can get more out of people if they want more gotten out of them. So at the end of the day, that's a great question. I cut this episode in half because I really wanted to focus on some of the great things that Rick spoke about today. The first thing being the role of the tennis parent. I had Carlos and Josh Goffey on the podcast about two months ago.
And they spoke a lot about what the role the parent should be and how they should be involved in the game. But that parent is either positively or negatively affecting their child's tennis game. So how they talk to their kid, what they're valuing in the junior developmental process, whether it's wins, how they're doing in tournaments, or is it the work ethic, the improvement, the competitiveness?
and not treating every tournament like the Super Bowl. I loved how Rick said that today. The other thing I loved was what he learned from working with Venus specifically. You know, anyone who's seen her play knows that she has a unique backhand technically. but he learned to let her individuality shine through and let her stick with something that was working. Lots of people out there, including myself, have chased a perfect swing or a perfect technique.
but it's definitely okay to have your own individuality and a unique style as long as you're being efficient, avoiding injury, and competing at a level that you're happy with. I want to thank you all for listening. I know there are a lot of podcasts out there and I'm grateful you chose to join me today. I'm motivated to evolve and improve. So please subscribe if you enjoyed the episode and leave a comment or review. So we keep getting better every week.
For more, check out my Instagram at Stokey Tennis for clips from these podcasts, as well as general drills and tips to help your tennis game. Thanks for listening. I hope you just improved in tennis without even hitting a ball.