Hey, everyone. On today's episode, we have three-time U.S. Open champion Rajiv Ram. If you're new to the podcast, Rajiv and I played junior doubles together for about four years and won a few national junior championships together. One of us went on to win four grand slams, two Olympic silver medals, two ATP tour finals, and reached number one in the world. And the other is currently hosting a modest tennis podcast designed to help the everyday tennis player.
Today's conversation touches on some advanced ideas that any amateur can apply to their games, like losing the right way, where to stand on returns, keeping the ball low to the net player, and making practices more fun. So sit back, relax, and prepare to become a smarter tennis player.
All right, Rajiv, welcome to the pod. Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me. This is an annual thing. I love having you on. And I'm not sure when this is going to air, but it's a week or two before Christmas. So we're in that really short off-season time.
And I was curious, I know you're 40, you've been playing tennis for 30 years, constantly learning, growing, but how do you attack an off season? Like, do you focus on your strengths? Do you focus on your weaknesses? Do you use analytics from the year before? Like, how do you use this time to improve? Yeah, I think each year is different.
um this year was actually really taxing and tiring um with it being an olympic year we had a few more events that i played uh to try and prepare and do the best i could there and also the the tour sort of changed of late where a lot of these masters 1000s are now two-week events so you actually end up spending more time on the road um we can touch on that a little bit more but basically long story short i felt more tired and more sort of you know
fatigued i guess than i have in the past few years um so i just felt like this year a big part of the off season was actually just getting some rest and getting you know rejuvenated to uh to do as well as I can next year and to play as well as I can. I didn't actually feel like there was one specific thing or two specific things I wanted to go out and work on, but it was more like, let me just get prepared to give it a good go for next year.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on those two week events. I know they happen a little more than they used to. And yeah, is that just, is it a lot of downtime? Is a lot of practice time? Obviously it increases the time on the road. Like, what is that like for you?
Yeah, for me, it's quite a bit worse, to be honest with you. I feel like... you know the idea from a player's perspective is that you know you get more days in between matches and there's more rest but what ends up happening is that you actually end up spending more time on the road um and for someone who just plays doubles i feel like uh the double side of it you know there's there's no
financial gain there's it's not like we're playing for more money so you're actually playing longer tournaments which are you know more weeks on the road your expenses go up double because it's a you know it's double the time but your prize money stays the same it's actually cut in half in a way because you're only
playing for half you know for twice the amount of time so it doesn't really work that well mathematically and then more more than that you end up spending more days on the road not knowing if you're going to play having to wake up and practice and go through the whole routine when you know some of those days if it was a short week
if you lose early could be spent at home sort of resting rejuvenating all that stuff so I felt like that really took a toll on me this year to be honest I had a lot of tournaments where I didn't win that much of was first second third round maybe but You end up being like a seven or eight day trip at that particular venue or that particular place. And it's more taxing than you think. How does that impact your practice sessions? So normally, let's say you went to a tournament.
You lose second round. You might have five days till the next event. You can go back home. You can go to the next event, whatever it might be. When you're kind of stuck at an event and you've got one or two days in between matches and it's just lingering, you probably don't want to introduce anything too new. How does that impact the practice side of what you're doing? Yeah, it actually makes it exactly that. You end up sort of just doing the...
with quote-unquote boring repetitive stuff just to stay sharp but you end up sort of getting you know being less engaged or at least I do I feel like you don't you don't introduce anything new it's not fresh it doesn't stay fun it doesn't stay sort of like um interesting as much and you end up kind of just yeah doing the same practice over and over again for 45 minutes or an hour or whatever it is and actually that was another thing is i found just just that becoming a little bit kind of like
monotonous um and it makes it less fun for me so uh yeah you can't i feel like you can't maybe go out and work on something and really try to improve something because you're always sort of i might be playing the next day and i don't want to do that because it's in the middle of a tournament so it's a really tricky balance Is there anything you do in particular, the monotonous boring work?
sometimes it's like, it has to be a part of the process, right? Like you have to get it done. So what do you do to get yourself through that? I have a lot of players and I might tell them, Hey, you got to go out and do X, Y, or Z on your own before the next lesson. And it's just so boring. It's easy to do, but it's also easy not to do. So how do you get yourself to focus and put that work in on a weekly basis? Yeah, the one.
Best way I found to do that is to make it competitive somehow. You know, let's say it's a drill where you have to hit, I don't know, 25 or 20 seconds or returns or whatever. Okay. I got to make. 15 of these or i gotta make pick a number i gotta hit it to a certain spot or i gotta hit cones on a serve or i gotta hit something to where there's like something on the line and there's a you know there's a
punishment's a strong word, but there's something that you lose if you don't get it and something that you win if you do get it. Something to where it makes it a little bit more than just doing the drill, I find is huge. Keep score, compete against your partner, compete against yourself.
Compete against your coach. Do something where it's a little more than just the drill. I can't wait to hear this one. What is the most boring, monotonous thing that you have to do on a weekly basis that you hate the most but you do anyway?
I can't say that I hate any of these things, obviously, but monotonous stuff are like... you know like first volleys first volley drills uh service partner stuff you know things that it's like one shot and you're just hitting in doubles there's a lot of you know one shot specific things and while it can be really rewarding when you actually do the work and then you have to
do it in a high pressure moment it actually works out because you feel like you put in the time doing the work doing that kind of stuff day in day out can get a little bit You know, I got to do this again. I got to hit five first volleys in a row or I got to hit, you know, this shot or this shot. So I wouldn't. Yeah, I think for me, some of the one shot things and doubles can get a little bit monotonous, but. I know that that is where the game hinges. And so I do appreciate that.
All right, so we're going to shift from the boring Monada side to the exciting things, which is you are going to be teaming up with a new partner this year, Austin Krychek. You guys won a silver medal this year. I'm sure there's a little bit of new juice playing with someone new. Everything's a little more exciting. He's a lefty. So there's an element there as well that you've been playing with a righty for a while.
One thing that people talk to me about when they play with different partners recreationally is just the timing of the shots. So his serve is going to be different than Joe's in the past. It's going to have different spin, his ground strokes, his volleys. So when you're at the net in. austin is serving or you have a new partner how do you time your split step your movement all that how does the timing go for you
Yeah, that's actually, I was going to say, that's the biggest part of it. In this particular case, Austin's got a great serve. He serves really quite fast and all that. So it's been and it's going to continue to be an adjustment for me to make sure that I'm timing my split step correctly. I don't think it's anything. more than just a bit of trial and error but being aware that just because it worked with one you know somebody it's not gonna necessarily work the same way with the other person
So, you know, we do a lot of stuff where if it's a coach or another player, like he would serve. And even if he misses the serve or even if the ball doesn't come back for me to. to still practice my split step, to still practice when I get out of my, if it's I or if it's regular, when I get into position to prepare, because some of those things, you don't need to necessarily have the point be in play.
to practice you know the timing you know the serve still goes the same pace whether it's a foot out or foot in whether the return is made or not like you can just feel if your timing is correct so i feel like those reps we can get in Even if even if a point isn't live, let's say, or if it's not in play, you can still sort of understand and get a get a feel for what's going on there. Now, once you start playing with someone on a regular basis.
Like you might find, for example, his slider serve, you might go, damn, when he hits it this well, typically guys will catch it late and will kind of fall into my pocket here or whatnot. So do you find your balance at the net is slightly different?
Once you've gotten comfortable and you go, you know what? I know when he hits T on the, on the deuce court, this is kind of where people have tend to hit it. Do you guess a little more or anticipate, or do you kind of keep your balance neutral no matter what?
No, I think a big part of it is, I feel like a big part of what I feel like my strength is in that position is the anticipation and is the sort of... let's say educated prediction predicting of what might happen um this is a this is an even more of a case because he's a lefty i've actually never played with a lefty before for any length of time you know like maybe i'm sure i have at some point but not certainly consistently you know so Sometimes even if a lefty hits the serve,
in the middle of the box with no you know not not a great serve it's still tough for a returner to kind of hit it one side or the other because it's opposite spin of a righty you know so um just sort of adjusting to that and and understanding what may or may not happen and making those educated guesses. I'm not the fastest person, not even close as server's partner, but I feel like if I can make some guesses, I can sort of cover more territory than maybe my legs would allow if I didn't do it.
I recently posted a reel on Instagram and was like, Hey, ask me all the questions you have and I'm going to answer them. And some of them. were pretty difficult. And I knew you were going to be coming on the podcast. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to ask for a G like me. So one of them, one of them was, what do you do when someone's got that good lefty slice serve, especially in the ad court?
like what are some things you think about to handle that when you go against the lefty so when i'm playing against the lefty you mean yeah someone hits that lefty slider out wide and you're in the ad court like what do you what are your thoughts on how to better attack that return to serve Yeah, I think one thing is you have to respect it. You have to. It's a tough serve. I mean, when a lefty either hits it into sort of if you're a righty, which I am, you get hit in your forehand body.
Or if they stretch you, which I'm a one-handed backhand, sometimes I'm not sure if it's better. Sometimes I think you have a little bit more reach for the one-handed backhand on a slider serve. But I think one big thing... that's important against a lefty is is that lob return from the ad court because
If you do get it over the net player, it's that lefty's backhand, right? So it's not like he can come over or she can come over and hit a regular overhead. They're going to have to deal with a backhand volley. So from that sort of jam position in the forehand or the stretch position, I feel like that law. return is is uh even more of a useful shot because the the lefty is going to be having to play a backhand if you hit it decent so that's one thing for sure is there is there any
do you decide that before the return is hit that, Hey, you know what? This might be a good time to sprinkle it in. Or are you kind of reaching out and as it's pulling away from you, go. you know, I might need to throw up a lob here. Yeah. Sometimes it's with a lefty. I would do it beforehand. So I feel like, okay, if he serves me wide here, I'm going to hit a lob.
But anywhere else, I'm going to try and hit it. So I'm going to kind of be ready for that forehand jam. You know, I can hit that one. But if it's a stretch wide, I'll hit a lob. Or the other way around. If he stretches me wide, I'm going to hit this one. But if it catches me in tight in the body, maybe I'm going to lob that one. So sometimes I...
I think about it not like I'm going to lob it no matter what, but if I sort of sit on one serve and if the other one comes, I'll throw up the lob there, you know? Yeah, I feel like the toughest ones are the lefties that can hit all the spots on that ad court because they really can sort of stretch you. We're talking about those two, but if the lefty hits it big down the tee, it's a lot of room to cover for sure.
I'll do my best to articulate this for the podcast, but do you aim that lob if you went too far down the line? I'm assuming the lefty server is probably playing with another right-handed player. There probably aren't many lefty-lefty combos. So if you hit that lob straight down the line, let's say on the single sideline.
the net player still could maybe get back and hit a righty overhead. So do you aim it a little bit more to the middle? So it's kind of like either guy would have a little bit of an awkward backhand overhead type situation. Let's put it this way. I definitely try to not miss that one wide because I feel like a middle lob is not a bad thing because of the point that you made. You're kind of having both guys maybe hit a backhand overhead.
I feel like a wide miss in that situation is like a... pretty bad mistake miss it in the middle make even the lefty hit an overhead because you know it's something it's something else a regular overhead but don't don't miss it why don't make it just an error that way because middle is such a such a good play in that situation
I had a player on one of my Duke teams and his dad was a coach. And he said that one of the cardinal sins in their practices was you never miss a lob wide in anything because they're like, the width of a lob doesn't really accomplish much. It's the depth or the height.
So to miss it wide is just like this throwaway air that is just completely meaningless. And I do see that sometimes in recreational doubles. Yeah, I agree. And you have so much court where you can hit it into. Like you said, there's no reward. There's no extra reward that you get for hitting it.
on the double sideline like a lot of times it's still just the point is being played after that the same way it would be so do you have anything that differs with your footwork in terms of cutting off that slider angle moving more into it or is that just kind of the same thing you do for a righty or a lefty
Yeah, it's kind of the same thing. I think the one big thing is where you actually start as a returner when you're facing a lefty. I think like a lot of players I see, they play right here to the lefty and their service return position is the same, you know, and it's like...
their ability, especially if it's a good lefty server like Austin is, I mean, their ability to slide you out wide is significant. I mean, it's nowhere close to where a righty would end up, you know, a lefty so much further. So you have to respect that. you have to sort of make him hit a big tee serve that goes straight. So I feel like for me, I mean, I almost start both feet in the alley a lot of times if I'm playing a good lefty server, because I feel like...
it's that big of a difference between a righty and a lefty. Whereas a righty, I would maybe start with just my left foot, sort of on the singles line even, you know? How often do you adjust your, but let's say you, you scout an opponent and you go, their T serve is great, or it doesn't matter. They're wide serve. Will you shift?
Just enough to see if you can convince them not to try that serve, but also you're not leaving the opposite corner wide open. Like, is that something you play with from match to match, opponent to opponent? Yeah, it kind of depends on who it is. If you feel like that person has a real, real tendency, you want to totally take it away. But if it's one that they they're a good server and maybe they just slightly prefer one over the other. One of the other things I like to think about is.
even if you can't make them hit it or make them hit the other serve maybe you can make them miss their favorite serve you know like if you if they have a good t-serve and i squeeze a little bit to the t so they try to squeeze a little bit more and you know i feel like if you can make a player miss their favorite serve i feel like that can be sometimes a hit on the confidence a little bit like oh man he's taking away what i really like and so i feel like that's another one where i i kind of
I give myself a little credit if I feel like they've gone a little bit, they've gone for a little too much on their favorite serve because of maybe a positional change that I've made. I feel like that's a big part of it. But yeah, it really depends on the player and sort of the situation.
So you mentioned, obviously you have a one hand backhand. There's another question I got on Instagram and obviously I have zero feel for the one hand backhand. So although I know the mechanics of it, it's tough for me to communicate.
And answer that question. Cause I've always had a two-hander, an ugly two-hander, but a two-hander. Effective though. Effective. There's no style points out here. I'll take that. Exactly. So do you have any like technical cues that you have on your one hand backhand return in terms of. take back the size of the swing, any feel that you have that when you're in a match, you can kind of rely on to help you hit better one hand returns.
Yeah, for me, a big thing is just thinking about making the racket go back to forward. I feel like sometimes with a one-handed backhand, I don't know if this is the case with a two-hander. I'm the opposite. I've never had a two-handed backhand, but I feel like sometimes when we try and make returns or we try and sort of want to... create a little bit more spin you end up sort of hitting up to down or down to up you try and kind of hit you know create top spin on the return
I mean, when a serve is coming at a decent clip, I mean, that is really difficult to time, right? The serve is coming straight at you and you're trying to hit the balls coming this way. You're trying to hit this way. Like your chances of squaring that up are.
are slim to none you know especially in pressure moments so a lot of times i think about hitting the ball more back to forward so you actually hit the back of the ball that way if you miss a little bit you're a little out in front you're a little early you'll still probably get the ball to go over and in the court um if you hit it kind of in the middle of the strings whereas opposed to the other way
The margin for error is so small. So that's one thing I always think about is just trying to hit back to forward. Whenever I watch you and other people play live, I notice the serves are just, they're insane. They really are so good. And so returning is a very, very difficult thing. Getting that break is tough. Typically speaking, do you have a strategy? Like you could go one of two ways. You could try to make every single return.
but the quality would probably be lower. And so they could finish more balls or do you go, Hey, you know what? I know I might miss them, but when I make them, I want them to be so quality. that we actually have a legit chance to win the point? Like, how do you navigate those two different strategies? Yeah, it's tough, isn't it? Because I feel like sometimes that could change depending on your opponent, but depending on service, I feel like sometimes on faster surfaces, I feel like...
You might as well just kind of go for it because you're not going to make that many anyway. So you feel like you want the ones you make to count. But in general, I would say I just think about a good quality hit. My good quality hit. a lot of times i feel like is is good enough to do enough damage um and i can make it enough it's sort of i feel like when i'm at my best and i have that mindset that's sort of a nice middle ground you know
My good quality hit isn't good enough necessarily to just hit cold winters all over the place, but it's one to set us up in the point. I also think a lot about in that situation is setting up my partner. I don't really think about just hitting a... You know, it's not all about me. It's doubles. You have a teammate. So if I can hit a good enough shot to where my partner is in play and set up, we're going to win most of those points, I feel like. So I do feel like.
I do feel like it's a sort of a mindset that we're competing there as a team, as opposed to me just thinking I'm going to either make a bunch or I'm going to hit a winner. Like I'm going to do what I can to help my team in that situation. How much does the opposing net player.
factor into your thought process anxiety worry do you are you always worried about getting around them do you sometimes think about trying to jam them in a certain spot like if they're being super active does that influence where you're going or how does that work for you Yeah, for sure. If it's a really kind of active, you know, like a lot of the doubles guys are, I think it's something that that's their sort of one of the biggest plays is to annoy the net player.
In that situation, I tried to not worry about them. I'm going to hit my shot. And if they go and they make a move and they pick it off, then that's... good for them um i think that's also where a lob comes into play a lot more is if they're being if they're playing really close to the net and they're being active and aggressive like you throw a couple lobs up maybe you get them to back up a half a foot and maybe you have a little bit more room in a pressure situation to then hit
um it hit a return um i also feel like sometimes when we're playing singles players like that could be their weakest position on the court so we want to hit as many balls at them as we can you know um You have a guy hit a serve and he's a great baseliner. So that's not a great situation to be in. But that guy at the net may be the one that's feeling the most exposed. So maybe try and hit every return that we can down the line and maybe a few more balls after that to make him feel.
like he's a bit of a weakling in that way. I love it. You've talked multiple times about trying to get people feel like a weakling, whether you have made them try their best serve and they miss it or you go at them with the net. Do you ever something I used to maybe I was in my own head too much, but.
I used to sometimes intentionally serve, depending on the score, to someone's strength because I was like, man, if they've got a great forehand, but my serve is also great and they start missing forehand returns, they're very unlikely to give me the credit. They're probably going to take the blame and say, what's wrong with my forehand? Do you ever...
use that on your own serve to get in their head. Absolutely. I think, I think so much of tennis, right? Like we're talking about here. So much of tennis, you people get. So focused in on themselves, you know, it's a pressure situation. I'm nervous. I mean, if you're nervous, there's probably a good chance the other player is nervous or the other team is nervous as well. You know, so so much of the psychology of it is if you don't you don't necessarily have to feel.
great to win. If you can make the other person feel worse than you, even if you're not feeling great, if you can somehow make them feel worse than you, that's still you know that still accomplishes the goal right so i think yeah absolutely i i felt the same way you know even in singles you know my serve was my strength so if i can match my strength against your
strength as a returner and i still feel like i can come out on top i feel like that can be quite demoralizing for a returner especially one who might think he's a good returner you know so i feel like if you can sort of do that enough yeah you might not want to go there on a big point but if you you know kind of build up enough of that sort of um enough of that sort of i don't know mental
game if you will then you can kind of you can kind of knock the other person down a little bit and maybe reduce their level as a whole I wrote a note down here and I want to make sure I touch on it now that we're talking about serving, but you said one of the monotonous drills is like your first volley coming in. Right. And I took a ton of videos. I think it was two years ago at the open of you hitting first volleys and it's like poetry in motion.
Do you have any footwork that the whole coming in after the serve, getting close enough to the net and then kind of flowing through that volley? Is there any footwork pattern or thought that you have that you can share with the listener? I mean, I think the one biggest thing I would say I see in sort of like club level tennis when they talk about first volleys is people tend to just stop.
and then try and hit the volley sort of with their racket. Whereas I feel like the best first volleyers that I've ever seen have this ability to move through the volley and almost use their legs for the power. And it's like the racket just sort of gets in the way of the ball. You know, the racket doesn't actually do anything on its own to create pace. Maybe you angle it a certain way to create a little spin for control, a little underspin for control.
But I mean, if you think about like the players that we watched growing up, whether it was, you know, Pete or Pat Rafter or Tim Henman or some of these guys that were incredible first volleyers, it always felt like.
When they were volleying, the racket just got in the way of the ball. It didn't move. There was so little margin for error. It just looked like they were never going to miss it, you know? So I think that's the biggest thing that I find in doubles. There's countless great first followers that I've gotten to play against. And it felt like...
No matter how hard or soft I hit the return or whatever, it just felt like the racket was behind the ball and the legs were doing the work to get the momentum to push the ball over to the other side. Obviously, you guys call plays.
designed for your partner to get the ball right like we don't want you hitting six first volleys every game to hold that's going to be tough sledding what is the tactic when you do get a first volley are you just kind of picking a spot and going you know this guy's been active i'm going to take this one line Are you aiming inside the singles court? Are you trying to stick it? Are you trying to keep it low? What is the goal for you typically on, let's just say, a normal neutral first volley?
Yeah, the biggest thing for me is trajectory in that situation. I feel like wherever I decide to hit it, if I hit it low over the net, it's going to be a tough out for the opponent. Even if like I hit it cross court and the opposing receivers partner.
crop poaches if he's got to deal with a ball below the level of the net it's not going to be an easy one to knock off if i hit it right at him and he's standing right there if it's below the level of the net it's not going to be an easy one for him to finish If I hit it cross court to the, you know, to the returner that just hit the ball and it's low, they're going to be limited in their options. So I feel like.
height is a lot more important than depth in that situation. Because if it's deep, which is great, but it's high and it's sitting there, I mean, you have a guy back there that can whack a forehand. I mean, it's going to be difficult. You're on the defense as a...
a serving team up at the net or if you hit it high and a player poaches even if it's pretty wide he goes and gets it he can probably snap it off so i feel like trajectory over the net is sort of one of the big separators i also feel like in terms of level
the better players can control their, their trajectory of their ball flight a lot better than, you know, some of the other players. If someone hits good low shots to you and you're the person who has to deal with that, like they just passed you a problem, right?
How do you handle that low ball when you're the volleyer receiving that? Yeah. So like, you mean if they were, if I'm at the net and they've hit a ground stroke or if I'm at the baseline? Either way. So you're at the net and let's say your opponent hit a nice low volley to you. They hit their first volley and they were able to keep it low and you're the net guy, or they were just the baseline and they were dipping it low. Like how, how do you navigate that difficult low ball back to them now?
Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's where you kind of have to respect the fact that this is a difficult shot. I mean, if it's low over the net and you have to hit it kind of up, that's not easy, right? So the first thing is don't go for too much because it's going to be tough. You're not going to make that many shots from that position. I think the next...
thing is you sort of play that game right like okay you're gonna hit it low like i'm gonna make you hit another one i'm gonna make it another one because i'm gonna just keep it low as well keep it tight over the net it's almost like you know how long what's your shot tolerance of quality there and i feel like that's another place where
you know, as you see the levels go up, the shot tolerance of good shots goes up. Is that, you know, just because you've hit one good one, that's not going to be enough because I'm going to make you hit two or three. And if you can do that over the course of a match, then I feel like...
yeah, you deserve the win for sure. But I feel like that's a place where, you know, just, you know, if they hit a good one, it doesn't mean you have to end the point and hit a great one. You just have to hit another good one. One thing I always find amusing in a dark way is like,
at one of my doubles camps, like let's say someone will like rip a, rip a ground stroke at the net player and miss the volume. They'd be like, see my volleys suck. And I'm like, I would have been happy to make that volley. Like that was so difficult. Right. So I find the amateur is actually.
don't give themselves much grace or the opponent credit for like man like they kept it low they hit it fast they jammed me on my forehand side like that has nothing to do with my volley it's a tough shot do you ever find yourself
struggling to accept that? Like, let's say it's high stakes, it's US Open semifinals, and you've missed a couple of volleys, but they were challenging. Do you have to keep that perspective as well? Or are you pretty good at understanding like, hey, that has nothing to do with me. It's all credit to the opponent.
Yeah, I mean, it's that whole thing again of like, you know, understand there's more people than just you in this equation. So when the mental, you know, in the mental game we talked about, this is more of the actual.
tactical or physical game if you will so it's like understanding and awareness of what actually happened i think is a huge skill to your point right there like you can get down on yourself for missing a couple of volleys but maybe it had nothing to do with you maybe you just have to you know move on and make sure that you know, if there is one that is makeable that you do make that one in it and you let them.
you let them keep hitting great shots in the right spot to beat you. A lot of tennis is understanding also not only how you want to win, but how you want to lose. If you were to lose, because we lose all the time. I mean, literally, as a professional, you lose every week, basically.
So a lot of it is losing the right way because if you lose the right way enough times, you're still going to get better and you are going to end up winning more. I love that. Can you elaborate on that? Like for you specifically, what is losing the right, what is losing the right way look like?
I mean, first of all, losing the right way is being aware of some of these things. So being cognizant of the fact of what's going on. Am I losing because my opponent hit a good shot or am I losing because I hit a bad shot? Second thing is like... Okay, if there's a specific game plan that we're going to play, for example, we're playing two singles guys and we're losing because we don't hit it at the net guy. We don't take advantage of maybe they're weak.
point or their weak area in the game and we keep playing these cross-court battles you know where i'm okay like i can hit the ball pretty well but it's certainly not where i would want to be against some of these players If I'm losing, am I losing like that or am I losing because this net guy is having the day of his life and he's just defending my, you know, defending great shots and doing all kinds of stuff that we didn't expect him to do. So like, you know, both, both.
scenarios are me losing but one to me is okay this is how we want to lose this match and we want that you know we want to make the opponent beat us by their weakest position not their strongest position um and then another thing is like
more just on me you know like you said your serve is a strength my serve is my strength too so am i hitting my second serves like i want to be aggressive i want to go after it am i trying to you know take the lead in the point or am i kind of am i a little tight am i rolling it in am i giving my opponent
you know, a bit of a sort of a lollipop to hit a good return on, you know, because either way, he might hit a good return, but is my second serve sort of of the quality where I think, oh, geez, that was a really good return, or am I just kind of looping it in there so I think, yeah, he can hit it, you know, he can hit it.
well, no matter what. So those are sort of some of my metrics that I think about is what's really going on here. Am I losing the right way? Because in all these scenarios we're talking about, I'm not winning, I'm losing, but am I losing the right way or am I not?
I love that. When you talk about the lollipop serve, it's something that I know I'm a rational mind, but sometimes people get nervous and they're going to want to hit very slow, let's say on a break point. And I'm also like, okay, but...
If you go for your serve, just your normal second serve, nothing crazy. Like that is your best chance to win the point. And double faulting is going to be part of going for that. And also, by the way, when you hit your lollipop, you don't make a hundred percent. And now they get a good return.
So I think people always kind of look at the alternate route they could have taken. But to me, when you just think of it logically, you go, is like cupcaking my second serve part of a winning formula? If the answer is no, then you just got to like kind of dive in and commit.
That's it. That's it. Exactly right. If you're going to lose the point either way, how would you rather do that? Because I also find that in that situation, let's say it's a break point. Let's say it's a set point. You lose the first set on your own serve or whatever. You cup kick the serve and they smoke a return.
As the returner, they're going to feel like, yeah, okay, we got these guys feeling pretty good. That serve was crap. I've smoked it. No problem. We'll keep doing that. But if it's like, oh, man, that was a... that was a big serve or let's say worst case scenario, that was a double fault, but he went for it. You know, he really had like a good quality serve there. The result is exactly the same, but it's more done.
on your terms as the server and i feel like later on in matches that really has a an effect on the overall result if you can kind of keep the match in sort of your favor in terms of that sort of momentum and the flow, I feel like that does actually affect the result later on much more so than that one point, even if it is a set point or a break point or whatever. We're going to finish up with three quick Instagram questions.
When's your birthday again? March 18th. So that's 41, correct? 41, yeah. Okay, so... I do get questions on a regular basis, which are kind of like, hey, you know, what should my pre-match warmup be? How do I get my body going? And now you're in a very interesting position because not only are you an elite player, but you are also in the same age demographic as.
lot of people asking me these questions now. So what do you do specifically, let's say just on a normal match day, how do you get your body going? So you're kind of at the optimal energy level, physical level to play high level doubles.
Yeah, I think one of the things is it's not going to be the same every day. I've learned that the hard way kind of as you get older or as maybe you felt this too, like one day to the next. Some days you're like, oh, yeah, cool. I feel like I'm 35, which is, you know, fine. Great. And then the next day I'm like, I feel like I'm 55, you know, because. whatever reason. So I think being aware of what it is that you feel like in the morning, it doesn't have to always be the same.
um the next thing for me is i gotta make sure that i'm just like i go through all my routines like it may be small it may not be you know the biggest thing but like whether it's you know shoulders and ankles and hips and all that like i have a pretty long long routine that i have
it's not that you know it's not that difficult it's not that physically taxing but it's more just like making sure i hit hit all the spots to make sure that i'm kind of fully fully warmed up because i feel like as i've gotten older to the the links in the chain
sometimes don't cooperate as well so you have to kind of make sure each one is is attended to um so yeah that's a big deal and then recovery is a huge deal that's one that i've really changed you know i used to just be like okay if it's a hot
day in a long match i'll go jump in the ice bath i'll do it now it's like after every practice after every match it doesn't matter how long or how short or how hot or how cold like i need to make sure i do all the recovery stuff the same whether you know no matter the day Love that. What is the most challenging aspect of pro doubles that the common listener here or the recreational doubles player would have no idea about?
Yeah, most challenging thing. I mean, one thing is just the margins are so incredibly small and the level is so high that you just you play.
with such fine margins all the time that you can play great and you can lose a lot you know and you can lose and so just understanding That's the case and sometimes what tips the scale in those margins is your energy level and your enthusiasm and your attitude and how the whole thing could have possibly nothing to do with tennis It could have so what is your ability to be in a positive mindset? you know, in the biggest points of a match. And I feel like that's something that sort of sounds easy.
but you know you could be on a backcourt in beijing in the middle of october and it's dark and cold and this happened to us and you got to find a way to be in a positive mindset if you want to win that match because it's really got nothing to do with your forehand your backhand or your serve at that point It's just got to be a little bit of that sort of higher energy level.
One of the more amazing things, like they say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but one thing that I am always floored by when I watch you play is your energy and enthusiasm. Because when you and I used to play, remember we used to call it...
Remember we used to call it half rock? Like we wouldn't even give each other a fist. We would give each other like a limb. We were too lazy to even do that. Yeah, like we couldn't even clench the fist. It was just like the back of our hand would just like lightly graze each other and we would just casually like walk our own way.
And now I watch you and you're getting like all kinds of fired up. And I can see, obviously, it's definitely helping you play. But it's amazing because I think people probably see you and think that's like in your DNA. It's so nice. At least from my history with you, it very much wasn't.
Man, I watched this match the other day. I can't remember why I found it, but it was a singles match of mine at the U.S. Open from 2015. Not that long ago in the grand scheme of things. We're not talking about our junior days or anything, right? And I was like looking at this guy who was me on the court. I'm like, man, if you just showed a little bit more enthusiasm, this match would have been...
You know, it had been easy and it was like I ended up winning, but it was a struggle and yada, yada and all that. So, I mean, that was a that was a huge change that I had to make much later on in my career. I wish I made it earlier, to be honest with you. I wish I understood the importance of. how that can affect not only me, but my opponent, what they might feel.
Because I'm watching this match going, I mean, if I had just had no better tennis skills, but a little bit better body language, a little bit better sort of awareness and understanding of moments and when to show positive emotion. It could have made my life a lot easier. So yeah, that's not in my DNA. It's probably the most challenging skill that I've had to overcome.
I'm not going to say master, but get better at, improve significantly because I was really bad at it as a kid. I was pretty bad at it throughout my whole pro career. And the thing is, I didn't even realize what was going on. Last question. And I'll just remind you a year ago, your best advice for the 4-0 player was to hit more overheads, which was phenomenal advice. So you cannot use...
You cannot use that one. What is your best advice for 2025 for the recreational adult doubles player? Okay, so I said hit more, but that would still be up there. But if we can't use that one, I would say give up. Be okay and understand that giving up the line on return a serve is like you winning the point. If they hit, again, we'll go back to this kind of theme of what we're talking about, how you want to lose the point. If losing the point means you're...
opponent is having to hit return winners down the line in your alley over and over again that is a fantastic way to lose the point because it is so tough to do on a regular basis it is much easier to hit a sort of a ball through the middle that now your server
has to deal with that's really difficult. And I feel like so many 4-0 players just get stuck feeling like they don't want to get beat down the line when it is so much worse to get beat through the middle as a net player than it is to get beat down the line. Okay, I'm going to let you have a chance at this, at the pushback, okay? Okay, yeah, give it to me. Because I'm sure you get it.
I think that is incredible advice. And every expert and every incredible player I talk to says the same thing, right? Now, what they'll say is, but my partner, let's say a 3-5-4-0, let's say they have a horrible serve. So the serve is so bad. Well, then the returner can just crush it down the line. And my pushback is usually, well, if it's a 4-0 serving, it's also a 4-0 returning. It's not like they're just dropping dimes as the returner either.
do you find that your advice obviously the servers on the pro tour are hitting good serves so you can maybe feel more comfortable but even the the lower level servers or second serves do you still adopt that mentality On the tour, absolutely. I mean, I just feel like from the aspect of the easier return to hit.
The easier one to hit is the one that's cross court, like sort of with the direction of the ball into the bigger area of the court on the lower side of the net. Like so many reasons make it easier to hit a return cross court.
than it is to hit a return down the line and i'll even go a step further and argue that if your partner has a bad serve it is your responsibility to do more for them to help them more because some of the best players i've played against have allowed their server who has not been great to actually become an effective server because of what they can do with the net you know they fake they move they go they stay Very rarely is it, oh yeah, they cover the line a whole lot.
or never has it been that they cover the line a whole lot. So they make me feel like I got to do more with this return. It's always the opposite. It's always like they make me do more. They make me hit down the line more. They make me hit it harder because even though the guy has a bad serve,
that player, that net player is able to help him out even more. So I'll argue that the worse your server is, the more responsibility you have to not cover the line. Love that. And last time you said something, it stuck with me. I've never forgotten it.
You said, I am okay getting beat with great shots. I am not okay getting beat with someone's average shot. And that made so much sense to me. Yeah, it's still the same thing. It's sort of like that trajectory thing that we talked about. Like if someone hits, you know. If someone hits a great shot, okay, that's going to be low over the net and on the line. Fine. You take that every day of the week. But if it's a good shot, it's just low over the net. Like I don't want to lose.
on that one i want to make them hit another one and another one if it's an average shot which is like you know especially in the return situation like a floater through the middle i really don't want to lose i'm not okay with that i'm not okay losing to that one
Well, I appreciate you joining me in the off season. I know it's super short. You told me you're leaving around Christmas time and we were laughing because actually the first tournament starts in 2024, not even 2025. December 30th, two days into before 2025 starts. Right. That's wow. That's misleading. But best of luck. I don't know when this is going to air. Hopefully during the Australian Open sometime. Hopefully you and Austin are already crushing it again. But good luck in 2025.
I got a question for you. How many of those USTA gems you have back there? And are all of them from your junior days? yeah none of these are like senior by the way i won a padel tournament like a month ago and it said senior on it but it was it was 35 plus um i've got four eight plus six 14 How many of those was I a part of, curiously? Well, so probably nine because for the listener out there, you and I, we won clay courts our first year we played together. I think we had an epic.
come from behind against Casey Corkery and Prakash Armachar. Yeah, a tiebreaker, a super long first set tiebreaker, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, I believe we came back one in three. And then after that, you were too good to play clay courts because you actually were the best singles player. So you play. up and then so the next year i won it with rylan rizza and then when i was in the 18s
you couldn't even play clay courts because you were still too strong for that. So I had to find a new partner every year. So you and I only played Kalamazoo. So that's the only reason why three or four of these don't have you is because you were like leveled up out of the tournament. Oh man, that's too good. Sorry about that.
But nine out of 14, I'll take. That's pretty good. Hell yeah. I carried you to all nine of those, man. All right, Ben. It was great seeing you. Great talking to you. And good luck this year. Thanks, buddy. You too. All right. I want to thank Rajiv for joining the pod today.
He has a future career in television if he wants it for sure. The idea of losing the right way is something I totally buy into. Play to your strengths, give your opponent their weaknesses, and if it isn't good enough, that's fine. That's sports.
but make sure you're playing the way you want to play and try to keep the match on your terms. Just a reminder, all these episodes are released early on my YouTube channel if you prefer to watch. My editing skills are slowly improving, so keep an eye out for that. And if you have 30 free seconds and are enjoying the episodes, I would love if you could leave a short review on Apple. Thanks again for listening. I hope you just improved at tennis without even hitting a ball.