Marc Lucero: Stealing Your Opponent's Time And Creating Extra Time For Yourself

Hey everyone, on today's episode, we welcome back Mark Lucero, the current associate head coach at the University of Southern California, who also spent time on tour coaching Amanda Anasimova, Steve Johnson, and Shelby Roger. On today's episode, we discuss taking time away from your opponents while creating time for yourself, building confidence during a slump, and what bothers him the most about college tennis. So sit back, relax, and prepare to become a smarter tennis player.

All right, Mark, welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks for having me, John. Appreciate it. I appreciate you joining mid-season. I know this is a very, very busy time for you. You're actually on the road uh for your doubles tournament, your mid-season doubles tournament. Uh before we get into the big

picture topics we're gonna discuss today. I I'm just curious, like what are you doing right now in the middle of a season practice wise? Are you working on patterns that you've seen in matches? Are you working on specific shots? Like what does a normal day's practice at USC look like for you?

Yeah, one of the biggest concepts that we talk a lot about is the idea uh two concepts, but they're very closely related. One is ball recognition, the second is the the concept of time, both taking away time and then creating time.

Uh for us like a team that plays mainly outdoors, w one of the the things that we constantly need to try to do better is to take away time from our opponents once we hurt them and going into the indoor season You know, we're gonna have a lot of people that are rushing us. We need to be able to Create time without necessarily giving ground. So it's a big, you know, and the key to both of those is recognizing situations, recognizing the ball, recognizing when you've heard opponents.

recognizing the ball off their racket when they've hurt you and being able to make those you know, those decisions really quickly based on what you're assessing, you know, in real time. And, you know, if you're split stepping and deciding what you're gonna do, you you're too late. And I think That's it's funny because that connects you know, it's so nicely with with what I work on when I do lessons with junior players or, you know, when when adults ask me, you know, what

what I work on or or you know, people think there's secret to the pros, there's no secret to the pros. Like it's it's the same for everybody. You gotta recognize the ball. If you don't see the ball coming off the racket, if you don't split step in time, you're gonna be too late. Your decision making's gonna be too late. And whether or not your forehand is good or bad, it doesn't even matter at that point if you if you're not addressing the ball properly.

Yeah, I I'm thinking I'm starting to realize like the more players that come to my camps, they're usually doubles players between forty and sixty five years old. So not a news flash here, but they're not getting faster as each decade passes, right? So like recognizing balls, positioning yourself more efficiently becomes even almost more important, right? Because like they can't move quite as fast. So

How do you help your players like increase that ball recognition? Like, hey, when would be a good time that I can take time away? Because normally when those two items are brought up for me at least, hey, take time away and learn how to create more time for yourself.

People just tend to guess. Like, oh, you want me to take time away? How about I just put my toes on the baseline and just always take every ball early, which can lead to its own problems. So how do you help players recognize those balls quicker?

You you know, you really need to meet each player kind of where they're at and for some of them, you know, some player might need to do a drill you would do with twelve year old kids, you know, which is calling the ball from the opponent as soon as you can see it. You know, is it you know, aggressive, defensive, or neutral. You know, someone can do a little bit more advanced exercise where maybe, you know, the coach is feeding balls or volleying balls.

and they're having to, you know, d you know, either do the same thing or they're having to decide, you know, in real time what kind of shot they're gonna hit after it. But, you know, basically like regressing and then progressing based on where they are um and just talking about it and sometimes, you know, you can show them on video. Actually, you know, most people are visual learners, so seeing it on video is pretty powerful.

It doesn't have to be sophisticated like match video. We can just, you know, get someone out there with an iPhone, take a quick thirty second clip and the player can see themselves and they know what to look for often if they see themselves you know backing up, you know, when the ball is bouncing inside the service box.

Or vice versa, you know, trying to move forward when the ball's bouncing on the baseline and and those things you can usually um you can usually help to make the corrections a little more quickly that way. You said a professional teaser, you piqued my interest. You said when you're on defense or they're attacking, how you can create time without giving up a ton of court position.

Um, and so you might have some things I haven't thought about there'cause I'm kinda like in my mind I've been trying to process that one. So how how can you create more time for yourself without like giving up so much ground and creating opportunities for the opponent? Yeah, this is a big thing, I think.

Yeah, I think it's something Djokovic does really well. I think it's something that it's a scenario you see a lot on the women's side when you have, you know, a Rabokina or you know, when I was traveling with female players, you know a Sheropova or a Serena like pounding a ball through the middle

y you don't really have time to take, you know, a double step backwards. But you ha you do have time to split put your weight on your back, do kind of a drop step onto your, you know, your outside leg, whi whichever side it's coming to, and then lean onto the leg, sit into the load and create an extra

you know, two feet or maybe eighteen inches of hitting zone versus, you know, you'd see maybe like back in the day like a Red Wanska kinda or a Kerber like drop down and like, you know, hit the ball early like on a on a short hop kind of thing like

That's fine, but not everyone has timing like that and not everyone, you know, y there's a pretty good chance you're not gonna hit a good ball. Um So I think if you can create that extra two feet of hitting z uh you know, uh of time and lengthen your hitting zone a little bit, you have time to til still take a full swing and to play pretty good defense off that ball, uh assuming you took a split at the right moment.

There's a a coach at home and I he passed this on from someone he learned it from, but he called it the rule of fourteen, which was like Basically both players should be playing a seven out of ten rally ball speed.

Seven plus seven, fourteen. So hey, Mark steps up and he rips an eight or a night at me. I should probably respond with something lower than a seven, right? Oh, I like that. So yeah, so on that but it's not exact, but it's like a nice little framework for you to be like, ah, I probably shouldn't just rip a ball back that's ripped to me.

So when someone hits a ball fast middle and you're giving that extra two feet, are you also encouraging your players to kind of soften their hand, take some speed off, play with more height, or because they're creating that space, are they able to just kind of turn it around at a similar rally ball speed?

Yeah, ideally by creating that extra time, you can take a full swing, you know, on the forehand maybe we'll talk about keeping the hand a little bit more relaxed, so you could cover the ball a tiny bit, but not trying to play high, actually trying to think You know, especially too, like when you watch like the the the way Pro Tennis is played now, there's people that go from defense to offense. You rarely

Unless you're watching like maybe some of the great movers, people that go defense neutral and then offense. A lot of times, especially in the women's side, you'll see people go from defense straight to offense. And so th the goal is to be able to take a full swing you know, with a ball that that gets a little bit higher and where you're a little bit more likely to hit clean contact versus

you know, trying to step in, trying to take the ball early, you know, like the i internet coaches, no offense to internet coaches, who say like, you know, you gotta transfer your weight forward in every shot. You know what I mean? Or or like these, you know, the people that said like your back leg has to swing around in every shot. Like

It doesn't happen all on every shot. You know, it happens in the ideal ball, like for sure, but you have to be able to you know, you can't always be the one playing aggressive like you know, when people say like, Oh, like I shouldn't be back this far in the court, or I shouldn't be like on my heels like

Like says who, you know, like w you're there's always gonna be someone who hits the ball bigger than you or who's able gonna put you know, who's able to make you go on defense. Obviously your goal is to be able to weather that storm the first couple balls and then put them on defense and where you can play the game you wanna play.

Are there any fundamentals for when you are the person who's taking the ball early? So obviously we just talked about the defensive side, but is it shortening your swing? Is there a certain footwork? Is there a certain spacing?'Cause honestly most times that my players, especially in the beginning,

are trying to take the ball earlier, they end up just rushing themselves. Like it it looks very poor at first. And then once they kind of get their spacing and their timing right, is there anything that you see that's a common issue or a common drill that actually helps players be more efficient at that?

Um, you know, one of the phrase that you know I got from one of my mentors, like one of my uh coaches who I spent a lot of time with David Rudidi, he would always say, Take the ball in the rise, but let it rise. And it basically to get people to understand like they don't want to take away their own time. You want to take away the appropriate amount of time kind of based on where the ball's coming from. You're still looking for the ball in your strike zone. Like, you know, taking away time

could be making contact waist height, taking away time, could be making contact shoulder height, but you just have to figure out like what the incoming ball, what are the options it's giving to you, what's the tri the you know, the trajectory of that shot. You can take away time even like when you're backing up.

You know, you uh if the opponent plays high and heavy with a little bit of depth, you might have to back up a step or two and you can still be playing the ball on the rise and taking away time. So it's one of those things that that you know, it's not a You know, if a player is looking for like a like a black and white answer or a black and white description, it doesn't necessarily exist.

One thing in college is you guys are basically playing matches like almost every Friday and Sunday, right? So like once the season gets going mid January until probably like mid April at least. It's like guys have to be ready to go for one or two matches almost every week.

So is there anything that you do to help players kinda keep that level consistent? Like obviously there's some matches where maybe they could get away with playing a little bit worse and you guys are gonna be fine and there's some matches you're trying to peek for but It's kind of tough to take a weekend off. So how do you guys like keep yourselves ready to go for three, four straight months?

There there's a few ways. One is following the data. I I think you can really uh this was a kind of a theme of ours the last couple of weeks was not letting not letting winning cover up areas that need to be addressed or areas that really need improvement. And then at the same time not letting

Losing lead this is one of the things that You know, I tried to think about like during my career on tour was not letting losing cause I I never wanted to be reactionary. You know, I I always wanted to have ideas about what we're working on. I wanted to have a feel for where we are sort of in the developmental process. I never wanted to make, you know, reactional or

emotional decisions and we try to kind of have the same idea with the players. And, you know, every player is different. Some people might, you know, have a better fitness space than others. Some, you know, an 18-year-old freshman might handle the the the rigors of the travel or of the competition a little bit differently from someone who's, you know, who's twenty one. And we just we try to keep an eye on each player, uh try to have them be honest with their feedback. There's

some data we can use from the gym, you know, every week we have them tested on the force plates. Um that's that's again a pretty good tool. for where they are. Um for an adult playing, they might want to pay attention to, you know, to their whoop or their aura ring if they use a wearable or the or what their Apple Watch says um to give them an idea about you know, what's going on at home? Is there a sick kid at night? Is there something, you know, that's

And maybe when they go out to play their night doubles match they need they might need to spend a little bit more time warming up because their body's not primed to play. Um, same thing happens for us. I I think in in I think in in college tennis sometimes there can be this like tendency to Yeah.

I call it busy work to just, you know, practice to practice. Like we wanna we try to avoid that and really be specific with what we're doing. Again, pay attention to where got, you know, where players are sometimes.

They might need, you know, more time with, you know, with the trainer. They might need to do just a little bit of maintenance, but we really try to make sure that that that time on court is focused and specific to the player and not just, you know, we're not just doing cross court to do cross courts.

How do you help players when they are struggling? I mean, most of your players, you you're at a very good school USC, you guys do well, so they probably all have winning records. But if I look on the pro tour and I just pull up a random player who's like sixty in the world.

they're probably like their win loss is like close to five hundred. It's not like they're like smoking it, right? And so from a confidence standpoint, that can be difficult and you can't really hide, right? Like you're playing every week. So if there is someone who maybe is not getting the results they want, how do you kind of keep them in a confident state and kind of let them know that good things are ahead?

Uh you know, if you know how to do it, I would love for you to tell me because tha that's that's one of the biggest challenges of coaching is you know, trying to get the player to buy in and there's times in your career, at least I don't know, maybe about not yours, but in mine, where you almost have to you have to really sell it and you have to really

explain why you believe that, you know, something good's around the corner. And it may not always be or it may not always be coming when you really need it to come. Um, you know, in college tennis is a little bit different because, you know, the level's a little bit lower. There's a there's a few more there's more opportunities to win for players. Um

Sometimes for players it's as simple as m you know, they need to drop down the lineup or something. And sometimes there's players that can't and they have to keep going out there and taking it and and that's hard because, you know, say it's like your number one or something who's maybe struggling. it's really about getting back to basics and and they trying to figure out too, especially if it's a player who is newer to you or and or newer to the team, trying to figure out what that player needs.

to really feel good or, you know, trying to understand when they play their best tennis or historically when they've played their best tennis, what have they been doing in practice or what do they feel really good about? And then trying to feed that, uh, you know, along with too, along with what you and, you know, and the rest of the staff think are important for that player. And, you know, I'm

It I I've always been it which is which is great because it alliance with the rest of our staff. Like w Uh huge on conversation.

huge on, you know, the idea of collaboration and not, you know, coaching and coach player relationship not being like a one way street, but something that, you know, I we really need to know like what that player, you know, what that player thrives on or what that, you know, what that player needs to feel good. Like You know, if you think about players on tour like a like a Ferrer or or a Dennis Kudla or someone like that, l like like a runner.

they they need to run in practice often to feel good. You know, they need to do really physical practices, whereas, you know, somebody else might need something different. Um one of my old another mentor of mine, Jose Garris, like he put me on my heels one of the first days when he was with the US TA when he started telling us a story about

He asked Federer, he asked when he was coaching Roger, he asked Roger what he when he played his best tennis, what did he feel like he was doing the best? And I'm like, you know, in my mind I'm like uh hitting his forehand or taking away time or something. And he said when he defended well.

When he defended really well is when he felt like he was playing his best tennis because then people nobody could hurt him and he knew that, you know, he could then eventually hurt the other player. Um So that has always been in the back of my mind, you know, again, like the idea of understanding the player, but then also the idea like

prize and place a value on the idea of defending and how even for an offensive player that's something they they need to really like take pride in and um I I think like this is like a total tangent, but I I think defense means so much.

And means so much more than just the skills. Like it shows me how much heart you have, how much character, like how tough somebody is. And if you can steal a couple of points a match, like those are those to me are the are the points that are I think most meaningful in a match.

Before we jump back into the show, just a quick call out for ADV. They just handed out 48 beautiful bags to my Indian Wells campers, and I just received 32 more bags for my Charleston doubles camp this upcoming week. And they just added a new quartile to their lineup as training picks up for spring and summer.

It's 100% organic cotton, no synthetics or dyes, so it feels great on your skin and it's hyperallenic. It's also double-sided, made with a waffle-like texture on one side and terry cloth on the other. If you're curious, the link in the show notes has more details. I'm curious how

how you feel'cause you spent a lot of years on the Pro Tour and I remember when we were texting, it was probably two years ago now, which like time flies. It's unbelievable. P post COVID, it's like I don't know where the years have gone. But I remember when you were kind of getting into college you were asked me some questions about it. What are the differences that you've experienced now spending so much time coaching professional tennis players versus coaching a collegiate tennis player?

I mean, the the number one thing is that like the days for a college tennis player aren't set up to like have an awesome practice because they have to do other stuff. They gotta go to class, they're pro you know, being social at times, uh, you know, they're being a regular young adult and Uh the life.

that they lead compared to the life of a professional athlete is just totally different. And that's taken, you know, it took a little while for me to get used to that. And um I mean it's still It would irritate me almost on a daily basis last year when people would come in from a

you know, they'd come in at twelve twenty from their last class and we'd be starting practice at twelve thirty or something. And it it would just it would bother me so much. Like I I I I find it hard to put into words. But It's been awesome. But I I kind of had to realize at some point that it my purpose for being there was to teach them about this.

And and not to just get mad about it, you know what I mean, and not to just like light guys up about it. It was to teach them. And it's been unbelievable to me, like seeing that the the change this year and and some of the in some of the the number one culprits in my mind. like how they prepare for practice now. And it's not just

It's not just for the body being ready to go. It's you know, especially for these people, it's these these players, it's so important that they have that transition time mentally from what they've just been doing, you know, life's coming at'em a hundred miles an hour, you know, uh social life, school, everything on their plate. They they need a little like decompression and they need to get their mind right.

in order to have that good practice. And I think our practice quality's gone up quite a bit. Um at least like the the day to day variability has has gone down quite a bit and It's just been it's been awesome to me, you know, to see these guys walk in the facility an hour before practice, thirty minutes before practice, whatever it is and

go through their warm routine, you know, get in the room with the physio and um and do the things they need to do in order to have a good practice. And that part's been really fun for me. And that's number one. Um specific to the players, the uh The attention to detail is a little bit different. Again, these are like things that I that I try to help the people with. Um the specificity with

what they're trying to get out of a certain shot, uh, the ball location, like those vary quite a bit in college to me, relative to the pros. The um the recognition of when they've hurt people, um, that is not quite as obvious to the players as it is to pros, like the the tempo at which the game is played, not just during the point, but outside the point, um, things like that. What is your best advice to

So I'm curious, like I I remember that very vividly. I was like, Can our guys at Duke just not go to class?'Cause like I'm trying to get them better at doubles today and like I don't really care how they did on their e contest, like if I'm being honest. Um, but that's a very normal thing for a lot of players, right? Like so

Um an adult tennis player is coming off of work and going straight to the match court or a junior player is leaving high school and they literally go straight from there to the court, right? So they don't have much time either. I mean pros really that's their whole day, right? So how did you help players

get in that better mental state. Obviously physically there's a difference, right? Like if you only have ten minutes, there's only so much you can do. But how do you shut off the stress of the outside world and then get focused and prepared for your tennis match?

I think it's just the routines. I think there there's a comfort in routines. So so knowing what you're gonna do, like what your warrant routine is like, what's you know whether it's something as basic as you know, I take my you know, my Theragun or my my hypervolt and I start with my calves and work my way up or I go, you know, I know when I get to the club and I have ten minutes, I'm gonna, you know, get down my foam roller real quick and I'm gonna do whatever it is, my glutes or

You know, but I think having a specific routine, and I'm gonna the last thing I do before I, you know, is gonna be on my bands for my shoulder. Um, whatever it is for you, I I think finding a routine, because I do think there's comfort in routines, and I do think the having that comfort or structure before you do something that can be stressful, I think that will I think that helps kinda get the mind right.

What you mentioned that was kinda like a pet peeve that it would really make you mad, right? Where are there any other pet peeves not necessarily about your team, but like college tennis in general that like bother you?

Yeah, uh the other coaches like make fun of me for it a little bit. But I it drives me nuts how how slow the matches are because like no ball kids and like Yeah, these coaches like love to walk across the court in between points and like talk a little bit and like uh the coaches that try to slow the tempo, the match down, it drives me up a wall, John. And then just, you know, again, not having the ball kids, like like pro tennis goes pretty quickly.

Um, but like the combination of like not having the ball kids, which is you know, it's tough, the players gotta track down the balls and then the the the between the courts like, you know, stuff is just it's a little much for me and you know, the like the guy who will like say, Come on, you know, like or come on, you know, whoever between first and second serves, like when your guy's serving and will never say a word when his player's serving in between serves, you know, like

You know, uh just the the like the little games, like yeah, I'm not into it. I just I I I'm big thing and like let it be about the players. I want to see the players compete. I want to see the players problem solve. I mean it is you know, it's nice being able to coach. and, you know, give some ideas, you know, out there, try to offer some solutions. Yeah, uh but I'm really big into you know, I wanna see the player figure it out. Like I I I don't want

to create a dependency from the you know, I don't want the player to like look for me for the answer. Like they need to figure it out. And I can help them. And some of the things we can talk about in between points at certain times, you know, I think can help in that developmental process. So the the the more they see these situations arise, event eventually they can kinda sort of create the solutions or they they'll know what the solutions are themselves.

But um you know, my my first job after I quit law school was at Princeton and the athletic director there was a guy named Gary Walters and he had this sign in in his office. It was a Walt Whitman quote and it was basically about the student it it was a quote having to do with the student becoming the teacher and it it he like hammered home like to us the idea of and I was like twenty five or whatever, twenty six, and he hammered home the idea about recognizing teachable moments.

and the idea of like you want to prepare these people to not need you. And in pro tennis that was the exact same. And then I I think it's the same now. And um I just I really try to like stay away from the overcoaching and maybe that's why like the You know, the between point stuff like irritates me so much, but it just drives me nuts. It's funny, my last year at Duke, so I was two years at Wake and then ten years at Duke, so it was twelve years. It's not like that.

But I kind of knew I needed a new challenge. Like I wasn't getting as nervous for the matches. And so that last year, ironically, it was like

If I had something really important to say, I'd look at a guy and be like, hey, hit a little higher to this guy's back here and look for the short ball and we're coming in all day. And then that was it. And I was like, if he didn't get it from that, like I don't know how else to say. So like that was my one time and like we'll see in a set and we'll see how it works. And because I was a little more relaxed and almost just kinda like, look, that's it, the one thing.

I actually found I was telling my wife every night, I was like, I'm kind of a little bit burned out, but I think I'm coaching better'cause I'm'cause I'm just doing less. And one thing I notice when I'm screen recording matches or watching college matches online is like you said, it's constant hand holding And even like just emotional support. Like I don't need my coach to tell me

Hey, come on, you can get this point right here, uh, a hundred and eighty seven times in a three set match. Like I'm I'm gonna be trying against UCLA, you know what I mean? Yeah yeah. Like you you don't need the coach to tell you like it's a good time to make a first serve, you know? Right. I hear that all the time. Yeah. First serve right here. Like return and play. And it's like you're just stating the obvious. And like if you actually wrote down what you said.

ninety nine percent of it would be like, That's not helpful. Like anyone can say that. You're just talking because you're either nervous or you feel like they need it. And like you said, I do think when you kind of back off and give someone some space, like they find the answers, which ultimately

They're the person who's got to be processing things quickly. Like the worst thing that can happen, I tell my campers this all the time, is like if you play a point and you immediately look at me, like then you are not trying to solve the problem. Like that's an issue if that's your first response.

So did you feel that like when you were at the pros were people the players, you know, right after a point looking straight at you for the answer, or do you find your guys a USC or have you kind of prepared them to be like, hey, I'm I'm gonna let you know when I see something? Otherwise, like you've gotta solve this riddle and you have the tools to do that.

In the pros that would happen more in stressful moments. I I actually feel like th at USC the the players like don't look like at you like a, you know, sad kid who just saw the dog run across the street. Like I I actually don't see that happening, which which i is is great. Um I You know, the the the pros can be a pressure cooker. You know, you're out there in a big court and you're all by yourself and, you know, you can see that happen. I mean you know, there there was one matchman

when Stevie was like he should've told me to retire already. Um, you know, things like that happen. But uh Yeah, I'm a big believer in A lot of times the the coaching is gonna happen for me like unless it's like a real important tactical adjustment. it's gonna be a reminder to the player of some sort of concept that we've been working on or some concept that's important for their game. And, you know, a reminder, maybe in a big moment, like, hey,

you know, y you really gotta be physical here. Like ta try to take away time with your feet when you get a chance or, you know, a reminder like of of a you know, one of their best patterns like, hey, when you do this, make sure

Whatever, make sure you're accelerating, you know, and keeping the ball down because the ball's, you know, the it's flying today. Whatever it is. Something like something simple and actionable and something that's not too complex. And, you know, you don't al always want to be giving them like brand new information and some of those sense moments. Besides the ball kids, what do you miss the most about pro tennis?

There is like a certain rush, like trying to get ready like for a grand slam, um, which I I do like. Th it's it's pretty exciting. Like there's no other way around it. I mean, I don't and then and something to be said too for helping uh helping one player try to accomplish something that they're not sure they can do or that they wanna do but they don't necessarily know that they can do. Like I find that super inspirational. Um

But I I love coaching players, like regardless like of their level of I love coaching players who wanna get better, who wanna pay attention. Um you know, in in pro tennis, like there's There's some things that aren't that enjoyable. There's a lot of actually a lot of things that aren't that enjoyable. Like I actually feel like like the wins aren't that enjoyable. I I feel like they were often big relief.

because you you're making these huge sacrifices to do what you're doing and you know, you might as well win when you're out there and and the the losses were brutal. Um in college tennis I think the wins are way more fun. like wait every week feels like and I actually thought people were so full of it. Like when they said this, like

I always like players would say, you know, every like the matches it feels like Davis Cup or it's better than Fed Cup or whatever. And I thought they were so f like just totally full of it, you know? Um'cause I've been to both of those and they're all like unbelievable. Like playing for your country in these team matches, but

like when when USC plays UCLA, like it's maybe better. Like it's a and people will will maybe laugh, but like it's so it's so fun and so exciting to be a part of and You know, again, maybe it probably because of the scoring, because of the noad and maybe because the players aren't quite like at that like top level, there's way more ups and downs in the matches that like you feel like you've been on this roller coaster and um

You know, and the matches, you know, the the losses hurt you know, they hurt and and they're like these punches to the gut, but they were still so fun in the moment that like, you know, there weren't many losses in protest that were like that fun. You know. Yeah. I it it's it seems like uh some people have asked me if I would ever do it if I got the opportunity. I'm like

From the outside it just seems really, really difficult from an emotional standpoint. Like obviously I would love to be walking around with a racket at Wimbledon with a badge and like how cool that would be in the experience and being around elite athletes and Learning from other coaches, but there's also a side of that that just seems like a massive emotional

and mental challenge, not only for the player, for the coach, for the team. Um so I don't know how you did it all those years. But now you're a sick puppy because now you chose college tennis, which has has a challenge. There was something there was something r there and there still is like Something about like being around, not just necessarily being around, but

Trying to getting your athlete to go up against like the very, very best in the world. You know, I I can think of the matches like, you know, against like the the legends of the game, like th th there's such cool things and being on certain courts, um, maybe you don't often appreciate it in the moment, but afterwards you do. Like like Center Court Wimbledon is special. You know, I got the opportunity to be out there maybe three I think two times. Um

You know, it's one of those courts that like you don't ever get to practice on. Like, you know, you can always go hit on Arthur Ash or you can go hit in you know, in Margaret Court Arena or Rod Labor. You can always go practice there and you know, it's no big deal, but um center court up up until the last maybe two years, you know, it was one of those courts that um nobody ever got to set foot on and, you know, a set of uh

of lady members, you know, would break the grass in for the players. And, you know, now they're a little bit you know, they have a little bit of practice on there. But still it's one of those courts that you know, you can't really just go on there and hit. Like you only go in there if your player is gonna be playing a match. And Um, you know, for the players, it's daunting too to go down the hallway for the first time. And, you know, like Stevie talked about.

playing Roger and you walk down the hallway and look at all Roger's trophies. Um it's uh you know, it's not easy. Um but that that was really special and, you know, I'll I'll treasure those memories forever. You know, and both, you know, both are super fun in their own ways, they're just different.

We're gonna end this on a really difficult note for you. I understand that. Because you've given us a lot of good information and I usually just ask what's your best advice for the four oh player. I know for me that I go in waves. Like something will trigger me. I'll see something outside of tennis that gets my mind wandering and I kinda get

latched onto something that's effective in my coaching. Maybe the way I'm communicating something, maybe just, oh, like defense is so important. I get on defense for a couple months more so than I usually am. Is there anything fresh on your mind lately that we haven't discussed? that you think would apply to the four oh player, the junior player, to basically anyone listening that they could get better from that's been fresh on your mind lately?

You know, with with the Winter Olympics, just wrapping up, um, one of the last things I sent to the team was uh an Instagram post that Michaela Schiffrin did and she kinda went through these sticky notes that she had on her mirror in her room and she's someone that had been performing really great like I think on the like the the skiing tour, but I think she hadn't always skied the best in the Olympics and then she just knocked it out of the park at these Olympics and

She had these sticky notes and they were so much about process and they were so much about like like skiing with joy and and going after it. And um the last one I think was uh It was was was B D E, which, you know, if you don't know what that is, you can look it up. Like Big D energy. Um and but like about the way you carry yourself. And and and since I was at the U S T A like so many years ago, like I had always talked to these

kids about like, hey, walk walk around the court like you're on the Lakers, you know? Um like so much of tennis is about the attitude we have, like the way we carry ourselves, the body language, how we present ourselves to others and and those things really matter. And if you can

have a persona on court and I think I listen I listened to your episode with yeah Louis Caillet and he talked about being a showman, I believe. Is that right? Um it's totally talking about the performer. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the performer. Yeah. It's it's totally true. And you don't, you know playing your your club doubles match or whatever or for us, like you don't have to like be like a like performer with a capital P. But you need to carry yourself in a certain way and

that can't fluctuate from day to day. You know, you need to present like at the very least like a neutral outlook and like you know, unshakable. And then when you if you can get to the to the place where you're playing with joy and in playing with you know, with good energy, like that's how you set yourself up, I think, to to play your best tennis and to compete your best.

versus people often looking at it from the other end, like, oh, when I compete really well or when I play really well, like yeah, I'm gonna have a good attitude and I'm gonna be really tough. Like it usually happens the other way around.

It's always a pleasure learning from you. I know you're on the road right now at the doubles tournament. You got Big Ten starting uh the next couple of weeks. So I will be following you guys, watching your matches online. Good luck the rest of the way, and thanks for coming on the show again. Thanks, man. Have a great uh doubles clinic in India Wells. All right, I want to thank Mark for coming on the show today. He's one of those guests and I try to get on every single season if I can.

I obviously want to focus on taking time away and creating time for yourself. I don't think players realize how often they missed a shot because they were rushed by their opponent or rushed by themselves in their own footworking position. Learning to take the ball early is an incredible skill, and learning how to slow the game down and absorb pace is a great defensive skill to develop as well. As always, thanks again for listening. I hope you just improved attendance without even hitting it.