Hey, everyone. On this week's episode of Baseline Intelligence, we welcome back Jeff Greenwald. Jeff is one of the premier sports psychologists in the game of tennis. And on today's episode, we discuss finding your optimal energy state. and how you can get comfortable in the court so that your best tennis can shine through on a more consistent basis. So sit back, relax, and prepare to become a smarter tennis player. All right, Jeff, welcome back to the pod.
Great to be here, Jonathan. Good to see you. So I was just telling you that when I get messages on Instagram or YouTube, it's usually one of two things. It's a technique, like my forehand is breaking down, but even more common is a mentality. They're nervous. They can't take it to the practice court. They feel like they're too high or too low. There's usually something going on between the ears, which is absolutely massive. And it's your area of expertise. And so I love having you on.
And I asked you kind of what you're passionate about lately. And one thing you brought up was state management. So what is state management and kind of why is it important for your tennis game? Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, and I like to think of us as instruments when we're playing tennis, hitting the tennis ball, like, you know, the instrument being your body and of course the mind connected to that.
You know, how loose are you? How focused are you? How's your intensity level? How much what we call arousal, you know, physical arousal, we think of it. In this context, it's different than what people typically think about. It's a state, a mind-body state where you're calm. Everybody's a little different in how much stimulation they can handle.
um we can talk about later you know introverts extroverts kind of interesting but but just that we want to be in that optimal say we could train and take all the lessons and As everybody knows, and then the match court feels different and there's more adrenaline, there's more juice and there's nerves and there's all this stuff. And I just think it's really important to get more precise and have a conversation about.
How are we adjusting this, et cetera, you know? Well, actually, I just had this conversation with Rajiv yesterday. So I was always a very calm person on the court. Like I was like a Bjorn Borg. Never got so excited. Definitely never said come on out loud. Like that was not me. And that was also very much like Rajiv was. But now as a pro, if you watch Rajiv, he's very animated and very high energy. And he was telling me that that's something he wished he knew back then. He said he was watching.
play a single himself play a singles match from 2016 at the us open and he was like i wish i could just tell my old self like to get it going like get more energy and you would have smoked this guy instead of winning in five sets how do you know what your peak energy or state is? Yeah, it's a great question. Well, I'll give you one quick example. I just played a national 40s tournament and...
I injured myself in the round of 16. I was up and serving in the same. I pulled a quad and I had a default, but, and I was playing okay. Not, not that well, not great. But so I was a little disappointed in my performance. I felt like, but. I was going through the airport after going home, right? And I went through the wrong security and realized that and had to get out. And I bought a yogurt and then they...
And then they said, I got to throw it away. And she was really rude, you know, like no, no emotion. I said, how'd that feel to throw that away? But anyway, but I noticed after that, I started, I was, I was irritated. I was a little bit. Yeah, I was irritated. And I noticed that I was walking faster. My brow was a little, I was just a little bit more, you know, I had more intensity. I was walking quicker and I felt more decisive at that point. What did I want to do? But it reminded me of.
my optimal state when i'm playing tennis which i didn't bring with me really in my view but um this sort of um Very decisive, very, you know, there had edge to it. You know, I had some edge and it reminded me once again about how important our state is, you know, when we walk on the court. And so I like to play with high intensity.
I'm a pretty extroverted guy. I'm probably a little more introverted as I get older, but the research shows that the more extroverted you... extroverted we are the more stimulation we can handle and the more introverted we are the less you know we want to be calmer and feel a little bit more need to feel more relaxed. And so that's interesting. But to find it, you know, you have to notice when you're in a good state, you have to notice that feeling when you're.
you know, loose and calm mentally. Let's take this in two parts, mind, body. Mentally, you were just talking about somebody who, you know, Rajiv, was it Raj? Yeah, he... is trying to get more of that juice now and actually mentally telling himself, you know, with self-talk, like, let's go and doing that. We often forget how we can guide ourselves.
with self-talk. So that's the mind part and not just leave it to sort of default whatever shows up that day. We got to take more ownership over it, you know? Do you, is it necessary to understand? So I guess Rajiv would say, well, he would have been uncomfortable as a 20-year-old being animated. That's not in his natural DNA. And so because it'd be uncomfortable to be...
outwardly energetic and fist pumps and whatever. Well, that's not me. So he didn't do it. And then he had a coach who said, Hey, by the way, I think you're going to play a hell of a lot better if you get outside your comfort zone and show more energy. And lo and behold, that coach. was correct so does it matter if you feel uncomfortable trying something different and does it even matter if you know why it works like for rajiv
He might naturally be a reserved guy, but hey, when he goes turbo mode and he's throwing fist pumps, all of a sudden he's winning three US Opens in a row. Right. And he has realized he needs more, a higher level of arousal. And what we know about that is low level of arousal, physiological arousal when we play is usually not consistent with, you know, the best performance, you know, but a middle level, you know, so, but the more we get.
There's a point at which it's too much and our performance suffers. So we want to find that optimal. And he sounds like he realized that he needed more intensity. He needed more engagement. He needed to be more active. And he could handle that level of stimulation, which is part of experimenting. What's it like to be in that state? And we don't have to be in that state all day long.
Remember, a tennis match is about 8% of your day. 92% of your day, you're doing other stuff. And that can you tap into this kind of performer self as well? uh and start creating this performer self do you need a little bit of some people say they play better a little bit angry not too much but a little you know a lot of players athletes talk about a chip on their shoulder, that having a chip on their shoulder, proving themselves, gave them that extra energy.
you know, commitment and motivation, of course, right? I was watching Aaron Rodgers, you know, documentary on him as well, right? And he having that chip and so forth. So it's like finding the source of motivation sometimes, mentally, having that intention. And sometimes it's about... behaving your way there if you don't feel loose if you don't feel confident um to act that way to you know to do some of these signature behaviors
that you see some of the top players. Of course, Rafa and Sharapova had it, you know, the way she turned her back to the opponent and Roddick had his, you know, he'd have his thing. So there's, of course, the routines that can... can help facilitate this sort of optimal state. One thing pops up all the time is, oh, I have it figured out in practice and I can't take it to the match or I have a practice level.
And it doesn't show up in the tournament. So how do you find typically most people's practice state or their energy level or where they are in practice? How does that typically differ from where these people get in a match? Yeah, unfortunately, Jonathan, it's like the practice court, particularly juniors, but I'd say across the board.
There just happens to be, of course, less intensity, less, you know, you care a little bit less. Not always a lot of league players and they want to win and they want to move up the ladder and all that. And sometimes there's bragging rights. But there's still this context, in fact, that it's not, you know, your UTR won't go down if you lose that practice set or tiebreaker or whatever, right?
So you really need to help. I really encourage players to getting creative in practice to, as we talked about last time with your coach, who said you're going to run if you don't hit that backhand down the line, right? You, you know, visualize yourself in the venue if you happen to know it. I mean, picture yourself before the return. Right. You're stepping up to serve and like bring on, create the pressure. And there's a.
Kind of a cool byproduct of that is you're seeking pressure. You know, so when you're practicing seeking pressure, when you're in a match and you feel more. It's like you're seeking. You want that. You know that that's something you need. You need to get better at.
And so I often would visualize myself, you know, on the court that I know, for example, and and add that pressure. And, you know, that that kind of thing. One time I have to share this. I was warming up for a league match many years ago and I. was feeling pretty low arousal and I didn't have enough intensity. So I asked the guy I was hitting with, can you do me a favor?
Just tell me that my opponent said some bad things about me. And he said, oh yeah, he said, he didn't miss a beat. He's like, oh yeah, he said you stink, you're no good, you know, whatever. And so and I went out and I played really well, really focused and I beat him. But like, you know, so we need to kind of get creative sometimes. But being aware of your.
of the level of intensity and activation you need. And then, of course, there's tools and breathing and other things we can talk about more specifically. But we need to make practice have more pressure also with rules, score, trying to, you know, penalize for missing a shot, missing a serve, et cetera. You know, we need to bring that more into practice. So I played golf this morning.
And I hadn't played since middle of November where I played a golf tournament. And I actually played great in that tournament. And what's interesting is I was today, I was just so happy to play. I hadn't played in forever. I was so relaxed. I was like, who cares what I shoot? Like, I really don't. It's not a tournament round.
super relaxed. I was like, I'm just going to make sure I pick a good target every time and just kind of see what happens. And it was the easiest round of my life. And I also felt that way in my last tournament because the tournament before I had done horribly.
And guess what? I survived. My life didn't end. So this one, I was like, oh, I'm just playing with a friend. Like, who cares what we shoot? And I played great in the tournament. So I know for me when it comes to golf, and I actually feel this way for tennis as well. that I almost need to dial myself down where I care enough because I want to play. I love the game. I'm showing up. But also I simultaneously am almost like, I don't really care if I win. I want to win.
But I really just want to enjoy myself and do all the right things. So I dial my level down, I think. And that's helped me perform better. Do you think that is where most people need to go? Or do you think most people actually need to get their arousal up? I think it's a bit of both, right? And it's a good example. And some really need to calm down more, for sure. And having a calm mind, for example, will help physiologically have a calmer body.
So the mind is really important. And that gets into brainwave stuff. Alpha, brainwave, beta. Beta is with chatter. Too much chatter is not good. Alpha is typically closer to the zone. You can have some beta too. Alpha is much more the alert state has a little of that meditative aspect, but it's definitely more energized.
more engaged, more alert. Just so people know, Theta is sleeping, right? So we don't want Theta, but a lot of Alpha, and that's what we're learning is to get more familiar with that. that feeling and being able to calm your mind quickly, not spending too much time trying to do it in a match. But, and I have a player I just spoke with who said he spent
He's on the tour and he is working too hard. He's been working too hard to be calm. And that got him flat physically. So we need to work on getting a quicker way to come back center. But maintain that intensity, right? And so I have found good success too with that calmer, looser. Getting more familiar with that state because people often play at a high level of arousal a lot. And when they get more familiar and what I say, bake it into practice, bake that feeling that.
as an instrument baking that in on a lower level on the dial then when you play a tournament you're you're kind of drop able to drop in easier to that state the looser but yet with intensity at the same time You've spoken about concrete tools. Is there a tool that you can have when you're on a changeover in a tournament where you can kind of take your own temperature and go, hey, am I where I need to be? Yeah, I am. Whether you're winning or losing.
hey, my estate is right where the zone it needs to be in, or hey, it's too low, too high. Are there any tools that can help you become more aware of that? Yeah, so one is to, what's called a body scan, is to drop in.
to your body and just sort of you know feel that feel how you feel the energy notice it as opposed to being up in the attic upstairs thinking and all that which is easy to get caught in but to drop into that the body skin kind of how you feel and you know ask yourself to the question are you having fun you know that's another part it's like are you having fun right now because it's very stressful often for
For all of us, you know, you're playing, you're trying to do well and play well and adjust and all this stuff. But are you having fun? Are you enjoying this? And it's funny that question, if the answer is no, that's a cue too. Like, all right, well, what is fun? I was talking to a player yesterday and she said that releasing on the ball is fun. So instead of just like, oh, hey, go have fun. And like, it's like, what is fun? So I think getting clear about that, you have then these triggers.
And, you know, so on the changeover, you're like, well, stepping into returns is fun. You know, being playing with a little more controlled aggression and not so. you know, impulsive and trying to force shots, right? That's fun to build the point and get that confidence and then feel a little bit more in control.
And some people, you know, find that to be helpful. So it's finding your cues. It could be a word, the body scan. Breathing is... probably the best which is why everyone talks about it it's the you know window into our nervous system so breathing in deeply into the nose out through the mouth on the changeover that can also bring you back center you
and and get you back into your body and then you can sort of assess and you get better at noticing the different levels of tension and you can then and i have players hit at an eight on the loose dial so it's how if they're an eight it's like that's that's tight lower is looser i just do it that way but so if they learn what a four feels like which is my best tennis at a four and other people four five you kind of find this
And you can visualize that feeling in matches too. In a second, you can visualize what's that feel like when you're playing a baseline game or whatever, and you're feeling that release, you know, and you can drop back into that and then execute that, commit to that.
There's this podcast host, his name's Huberman. I don't know if you've heard of him. He has like 5 million more subscribers than I do on YouTube and downloads. But one thing he was talking about that I heard about was the physiological sigh. which he said was like a double inhale and then an exhale. And in tennis or athletics, I hear a lot about box breathing or different types of breath work, but I haven't heard anyone specifically say that.
Is that physiological size something you can do when you're in competition? Totally, totally. And I think that's where we need to get creative and try things, be open-minded. When we exhale, that really triggers the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the relaxed. you know, part, branch of our nervous system. And you'd think the sympathetic would be nicer and better to us, but it's the parasympathetic. And so the sigh, the exhale, you know, it's...
It's a sort of built-in, like you're letting it go. You're dropping into that. And when we're sleeping, people naturally breathe with their diaphragm, stomach. They're not breathing like... But if you ask someone to just take a deep breath, they'll just do that. And then I say, okay, pretend you're taking a nap. And then all of a sudden... It changes. So we're always performing. That's the thing. And so a sigh is letting go of all the accumulation of stress.
And we don't even know, realize how much thinking we're doing and worrying and we're in the fight flight maybe. that the sigh, the breath, the body scan, you know, can all be really quick. It doesn't need to be this big thing. And you're breathing along the way, not just when you're in emergency mode, right? And so you're breathing off the core too. And you do this.
stuff you can do this on the go in life you know so it's not like just in the match it's just it becomes part of the way you manage and regulate yourself does that make sense Yeah. I, one of the things I think I saw this on Instagram actually, and the person was talking about discipline and how you will probably outthink your like way into something. So let's say.
you're on a diet or you want to start working out and you're like sitting there. And he said, if you think about going to the gym, you'll probably think your way out of going to the gym. He's like, just get off the couch and just start moving towards the gym.
Don't try to rationalize it. Like if you said you want to do it, is there any space for that in tennis or athletics where you're like, you can almost overthink and be so aware of all these things. And it's like, how about you just get up, go get the ball and go hit your serve. Totally. Totally. I mean, again, I think that behaving your way, acting how you want to feel that, you know, starting with the behavior first to create.
the the arousal level the mindset you want so we because the thinking is the natural default mode right we have to solve problems so we're thinking how to get out of it and get rid of it and and that creates this whole we get stuck right but so it's sometimes just turning your attention away from it right distracting yourself but
And and going into your body and trying to and then also externally focusing on targets and strategy. So there's you have to learn how to shift your attention effectively. And sometimes it needs to be on the target. And a lot of times external from you and not getting trapped inside, but you do need to be able to regulate yourself quickly. If you have too much tension, if you forgot that you're not, you know, you're breathing quickly.
If you are starting to, you know, analyze your strategy too much and overthink your serve, you just double faulted and now you're thinking about technique and it becomes so habitual. We don't even realize we're doing it, right? So I think it's getting more meta, being able to notice what you're doing out there, how you're feeling, and when you feel... good and not and it's like just can be one thing you know I'll visualize and I've done this before
picturing Agassi many years ago returning surf great return I would picture being Agassi and just did it you know or walking quicker, when I'm walking faster between points, I feel more decisive, I feel more confident, and it shuts my mind down. I have fewer thoughts. When you look at Rafa's walk and Federer going to the beach, Rafa is, you know, really head down. You know, everybody has sort of a different energy that is optimal for them. And that's what you really want to get.
clear about that and sort of act your way there sometimes you know my book best tennis of your life I talk about one chapter is behave your way in the zone right behave your way it can be I had this woman yesterday who said that that literally just releasing on the ball gave her the confidence. Like she committed to that and it gave her the confidence. When she did a longer exhale, you know, that really made a difference. There's plenty of different options. I love your thoughts on this one.
One of my goals, so now I play tennis in Padel competitively. I don't really play tennis competitively except for my YouTube video tomorrow. But one of the things I try to be aware of is... I want my personality, the way I act with my wife at home and the way I act with my friends, I want my personality to be the same when I'm playing. Like when I hit a bad shot.
i'll just laugh i'll laugh like it's to me it's funny and that's exactly how i would handle if i was walking down the street and i tripped i'd be like wow that's like horrendous like what what a horrible athlete right so if i would do that in just my normal life if i do something weird in padel or golf i'm just like oh like that sucked i might make a joke about it and so i feel like i am very very similar in competition to how i am just as a person
Is that a good goal? Is that a bad goal? What do you think about that? It's really interesting juxtaposition, I guess. So, but if you were competing. if you happen to be back in, you know, competing for doubles Easter bowl, as you were in winning plays and other, other junior events, like if you were back in that mode, do you remember? And. Would that, oh, kind of tripped attitude, the sort of, I guess you could say carefree, it's certainly carefree, and not...
Yeah, not careless, but it's carefree. So how would you be different with mistakes, for example, if you were competing? I think if I could go back in time. So you were saying like, I've got these balls behind me, right? I remember. Most of them. And I remember being really nervous. And I remember having conversation after conversation with my dad and my coach. And like, if you just relax, you'd play way better. And so, yes, we won.
Yes, I was competitive. And by the way, like I've won my two Padel tournaments. I won my last golf tournament. I don't show up anywhere trying to lose. Like I love winning, but I also. it's not the end of the world. And it felt like that back in the day. So even though I won, I don't really confuse that good outcome with necessarily a good process. Like I know that I would have enjoyed.
My match is more when I was 16 years old, if I had this attitude and maybe going through it all and realizing that winning didn't change my life has helped me get here. But I know that. My personality on the court used to get more serious. I used to get more reserved. I used to feel like I had to act like I was trying. And I don't feel that way in any area of my life.
I don't have to show you that I'm trying hard. I don't have to show you that I'm so serious or upset about a miss. So I feel more comfortable now. And I feel like even though I don't invest much in Padel or golf. I feel like I optimize my performance when I'm in these tournaments because I just feel very comfortable. I love that. I love that, you know, Jonathan. And, you know, it's very possible that you won.
those many events despite the nerves despite you know trying hard and kind of being in this place and that that took a lot of effort and stress And we can win. Players can win like that. I don't think it's sustainable. I think the enjoyment factor becomes a problem if you just lose that. And so that can be a slippery slope, right? And what you're describing now...
And congrats on some of those. That's fun to win those, you know. But it is sort of hard-earned wisdom, I guess, that you recognize that there's this place, this state. And I found it in my... my career post, you know, juniors, college and the tour, I found this place that was better than, significantly better. And my performance was better as well, where I too wanted to win.
I like, it's satisfying, but that there's this mindset of, you know, you know, you're going to make mistakes. We've talked about this in the last one, you know, 45%, you're going to lose anyway. You know that going on. So what's predictable is we're going to lose 45% of the points before we get on the court. So to get angry at a forehand and you miss long by two inches, it starts to seem a little bit.
Nutty, right? I mean, do you think you're going to be perfect? No. But the brain, if it's not dialed into what we're talking about and training that and preparing the mindset. then, yeah, we get stuck in those places. So to answer your question, sort of, I think that optimally we can have this composure and have intensity and... and yet remain, you know, loose enough to execute our intentions, right? What we came out that day to do, which is play.
aggressive, step in on the returns and first strike, whatever it is, you really commit to that. And if you miss and when you miss, you can walk away from that and get and load up for the next one and not let your brain get in the driver's seat and drive. yeah well you've mentioned the word fun a couple times and so yes i won my last golf tournament and the one before that we finished last but i would say because i played with the same guy my friend
We had almost more fun than the one we sucked at because we were laughing the whole time. Like, wow, like, look how bad we are. Like, this is shockingly bad. And we would just laugh about it. And, you know, again. None of this is really life or death. Like we weren't playing for a U.S. Open title. I can understand with millions of dollars on the line, I probably would not be laughing if I was having my worst day ever. But I'm just playing a recreational Carolina golf tournament.
And OK, that one was bad. And then we won one. And honestly, it was probably less fun because of the guys we played with. But that is my main objective. And yes, I'm super competitive. Yes, I try to be great at everything I do. But I also think.
And I don't know if you think this is a bad thing, but I also bake into my brain an expectation of failure. Like, not that I'm going to lose the tournament or I'm going to play bad, but I'm like, I'm not going to play well every time. So it's not like I'm not going to have fun in the next golf tournament where...
all of a sudden I'm not making any putts and I feel bad or my next doubles match where I'm missing returns, of course that's going to happen. And when that does, I can still have fun. That's kind of where I am. I notice that I'm relaxed in those activities. And a lot of the players I coach, when I listen to them, they don't seem relaxed and they don't seem like they're having fun. And that's always where I'm trying to get them. But obviously, that's not my...
perfect skill set as a coach. That's more of the skill set you have and the tools that you have.
Yeah, and this is a whole other podcast at a time, but to talk about the UTR and rankings and how much that influences, it's a number, right? UTR, for example, it's a number, but what junior players in particular... do with that how they see each other how they see themselves how they fear it dropping playing somebody who has a lower utr for example you know it's created it's a it's a become a poisonous
experience it's poison the the junior tennis junior tennis is hard anyway right like people calling their own lines at that age and all that but um it's um It's learning, in my view, to it's not a conversation about whether, you know, winning or losing matters or it doesn't. You want to everybody once would like to win, preferably.
would like to win. Nobody wants to lose. That's a given. Every time you walk on the court, you'd like to win. You hopefully believe you can. You don't know if you will. That's the excitement of sports. We don't know. You know, I'm writing another book now about that. And that's one chapter is, you know, just would you really want to know?
whether you're going to win this and this, would that be fun? Would that be exciting? And I don't think it would be. So, but we've created, we have anxiety around not knowing rather than excitement. And that's a topic I think worth exploring. But I just think when you walk on the court that if you can stay committed to the process, the mastery, the ingredients that will lead you down a better path and playing with intention.
permission to miss some of these concepts, the winning, as you know, happens. And we can create this, cultivate this state within ourself. by knowing, by being aware and practicing some of these things. We can create a more carefree place, carefree from the winning, losing, but very engaged with what is it that's going to help you get the job done. Are there any tools that we haven't spoken about? Breathing, the body check, all these things. Are there any other tools?
that can sticking with our topic of kind of personality, the energy state, the arousal level, are there any other tools people can take into a match that can help them?
kind of lean towards this mastery side, less on the outcome, even though it's important, more on how they're feeling, more enjoyment, any more tools out there for them? If we're going to stay in the context of... this energy activated state arousal etc that um it's really the um you know the behaviors and focus so we talked last time about sort of
So mindfulness, being present, learning to be present, not past, not future, but coming back to that. And so the tool, if you will, is that internal awareness. and presence, but yet then you're able most of the time to shift your attention to a neutral object externally. This is a very big part of what I try to get players to do between points. is look at the server shoes when you're back. Like pick anything you need to.
People have said, yeah, that really helped me. Look at the shoes. You don't judge. You're not judging the shoes. Oh, they got Nike. Or they're really worn down. They must put a lot of miles on. They're probably really fit. But it's just you're keeping your attention on obviously your strings and the ground. um the tree outside the court you know like perspective look up nature helps so focus is a big deal when we're talking about
our physical mental state. And so that internal external shifting is crucial. And then sort of acting how you want to feel, I think is, you know, how quickly do you want to move slower, faster? the release, you know, deal and, you know, visualizing quickly can help, right? Even if you don't believe you can win, visualize your beating, you beat the person, you know, you can also do that.
if you need that. But that's back to winning. But if you don't believe you can win and you want to believe you can because you're kind of backing off, then visualize the gold ball. Visualize yourself. I did it once because I was like, oh, man, this is rough. And I visualized getting the gold bone. And I pulled it out. It just gave me a little extra. I was just down. He had a big serve. And so we need to pull and use tools.
The visualization, the body scan, the breathing, there's a lot of options, huge menu. And you just find a couple that you can really trust, you know? You don't need all of them, but there's a ton. And I got 50 in the book. The best ton of real life. So there's a lot. And I love to keep learning. I'll just throw this in just for fun. I was working with a player.
A number of years ago, Grand Slam, I got the call. Can you send over some tips? I don't know if we talked about this or not in the last one, but playing a pretty good player in the quarterfinals of Grand Slam. was anxious about being in a state of irritation, frustration when Rafa would go back to the towel. When you go back over and over and doing all this stuff. And this player was just like, I don't know how I'm going to deal with it. And I sent over a message to the team. I said, you know.
Every time Rafa goes to the towel, he's doubting himself a little bit. There's underneath that, all the stuff is anxiety. It's a little bit of anxiety. And if you can keep chipping away, chipping away.
a little like ice it's you know it could break so don't think it's a strength think of it as a as sort of a potential weakness anyway this player happened to beat him was nice and they did say that was huge for him and that scenario but um that was him taking control and getting creative with some help but to manage his state to get that done
I did some video analysis and saw this player and others often touching their face when they play. Really interesting. And it's not just because they're sweating, because they're just going like this. And Rafa does that too, right? And what I research is that it triggers a little bit of theta state, that sleep, that kind of more meditative state, that touching...
your skin can kind of, just for a moment, calms the mind. Because again, you can't be thinking when you're feeling sensation. It's hard, you know, rub your fingers together. Do it with me real quick. And try to have a thought while you're feeling the sensation. You can't have a thought, right? At the same time. So I think that idea and that application.
with a number of different options is super helpful. One thing I want to run by real quickly, we're running low on time, but I stumbled across a coach, this was maybe six months ago, and you mentioned staying in the present. And I forget how it came up. We were watching kids play and philosophical discussions pop up. And he said, the future doesn't exist. He said, the past happened. You can learn from that. It objectively happened.
You and I are currently living our present. We might project what is likely to happen in five minutes or one week or a year, but it likely won't happen the exact way we think it will. And when we actually get there, it's just the present.
So we never catch up to it. So we spend a lot of time thinking, am I going to play well in the match on Saturday? He's like, it's never, you're never going to be there. You're either going to be living that moment or it'll be the past. What are your thoughts on that perspective? A hundred percent. And there is a. Sort of a proverb that says, if you've been living in the past and the future, you've never really lived.
I think it's right on. And I think it's probably the most difficult psychological, ironically, in a lot of ways, thing for us humans, athletes to do. Be in the present and not try to control the future, which, as you said, like that. Now what I just said is in the past, right? So now I'm in the future that I thought was the future. Now it's the present, right? So being in the present is really hard to do. But I think I'd like to add this twist, which is...
Because we can get really myopic about, okay, be in the present, which we can force, and then it kind of defeats the purpose. But if in a particular little window of time... you can bring your attention to what you're doing. Five minutes, 10 minutes, 15, you know, and so you're more in the present by doing the things. with that intention and not trying to force a future. You're in this longer runway of the present and then you're living more.
and more in the present and not extrapolating to the future and, and all this stuff, you know, we do. I could talk to you for hours. This has been tremendous for the people that. like your stuff and obviously many people out there working on your mental game. Where can they find your books, your courses online? Where can they find all your stuff? I just say go to fearlesstennis.com and get on my newsletter list and get some free tips and that sort of thing.
I'll be doing quite a bit in the next year. And my course is there as well. So, and the book is on Amazon, Best Tennis of Your Life. So, yeah. so all right oh i already took uh i got this legal pad full of notes here um already know what i want our next podcast to be on hopefully i'll have you on sometime in the next couple months but always a pleasure to talk to you it's great jonathan love it too i can't wait for the next one
All right, I want to thank Jeff for joining the pod today. Love having him on. He's such a great guy, and everyone is constantly dealing with inefficiencies in their mental and emotional game. It's a very common problem.
I'd encourage all of you to explore what your ideal energy state is and don't be afraid to get out of your comfort zone for one match to see what that feels like. Something that seems like it could be really weird for you might be just what you need. If you're a regular listener and you've already left me a review,
Thank you so, so much. And if you haven't yet, I'd love if you could leave a short review on Apple. It makes my day to see how the podcast is helping out your games. Thanks again for listening. I hope you just improved to tennis without even hitting a ball.