Why Justice Terrifies White Supremacist More Than Revenge -- Kellie Carter Jackson & Shennette Garrett-Scott

00;00;00;14 - 00;00;23;13 Speaker 1 Hello. Welcome back to the Baldwin Podcast. I am DJ Johnson and I am the founder and CEO of Baldwin and Co. We are a coffee shop and bookstore located here in New Orleans. Make sure you drop by whenever you are in the area. We are located right outside the the French quarters. Welcome back to our podcast. We have another fantastic show for you today. 00;00;23;15 - 00;00;50;06 Speaker 1 We have Kelly Carter Jackson, who is a historian and writer whose work centers around black resistance, abolition and political meaning of freedom in American history. And she is joined in conversation with Annette Garrett Scott. Jeanette is a historian. She's an author whose scholarship explores black women's economic power, labor and political life beyond traditional civil rights narratives, and they engage in a phenomenal conversation. 00;00;50;07 - 00;01;27;10 Speaker 1 It's a it's a real grounding conversation about how black people have always pushed back, even when history pretend otherwise. Kelly, she breaks away from stories that focus only on black suffering and instead shows how refusal has shown up everywhere, and protection and migration and community care Revolution in even in Joy. She shares some personal and historical truths that show that white supremacy isn't just open violence, 00;01;27;10 - 00;01;52;07 Speaker 1 but it's also erasure. And it's also within politeness that keep injustice intact. The, the take away from it is pretty much like freedom has always been collective. Joy takes work, and real change has never come from comfort or silence. I think it's a fantastic conversation that you enjoy. As always, please like, subscribe and share with at least one person you know. 00;01;52;10 - 00;01;53;24 Speaker 1 Thank you for your support. 00;01;53;24 - 00;02;15;02 Speaker 1 this election, was the first one that my son actually paid attention to. He's 11 and just turned 11. And he was really invested in seeing Kamala Harris win and and having a first black woman president. And, and because we talk so much about, like, how historical that could be. 00;02;15;04 - 00;02;39;27 Speaker 1 And also I talked about how much I despise Donald Trump that, we both had these really vibrant conversations, even with my daughter, who's eight years old. I noticed how much they were paying attention to. Not so much the news, but what sort of going on in the atmosphere, what kids are talking about in school. And so, the night of the election, he wanted to stay, and hear the election results. 00;02;39;27 - 00;02;56;20 Speaker 1 And I was like, oh, it's going to be a long night. You know, you need to go to bed. You've got school in the morning. And, he woke me up at 5 a.m.. It was actually not a late night, as we know. And he said, what happened? Did she win? Did you win? And I said, oh, no, baby, she lost. 00;02;56;22 - 00;03;16;24 Speaker 1 And he burst into tears. And so did I. And I've never really cried over an election. You know, actually, I think I did with Hillary too, but like in 2016. But I've never I've never been so emotionally invested in an an outcome. And I think part of that is because, you know, black people are used to being disappointed. 00;03;16;24 - 00;03;38;22 Speaker 1 But like, it was a disappointment that I had not never shared with my child. And I saw how much it impacted his outlook. You know, he thinks that the world is fair and that the world is just or that it should be. And so, having conversations with him was just really difficult. And so, I took them on a walk. 00;03;38;23 - 00;03;54;15 Speaker 1 I took my son and my daughters on a walk, and we just talked about what it means to have big feelings and to talk about, you know, what it means to feel sad and how it's okay to feel sad and, and that we have to keep refusing. And, you know, I said to him, what's the title of mommy's book? 00;03;54;16 - 00;04;10;18 Speaker 1 And he's like, we refuse. I was like, that's right, that's right. We keep refusing. We still we still got work to do. And so, to be able to encourage them and also to see how just they're, they're full of hope. Encouraged me was really good. Really good. 00;04;10;18 - 00;04;33;06 Speaker 3 And so clearly how black people have had to respond to injustice. And they do so in these courageous and creative ways. Even when their stories are left out of the history books. So was that part of what you were thinking when you were writing? We refuse is how to help people see and feel themselves as part of this longer tradition of resistance. 00;04;33;07 - 00;04;58;23 Speaker 1 Yes, absolutely. I wrote this book mostly. The summer of 2020 really inspired this book. I was mad, I was frustrated. I didn't know shade, but I didn't like the books that were coming out. And that time there was a lot of books that sort of, you know, rose to the bestseller list. And, and I felt like, no, this is not this is not the solution I didn't like. 00;04;58;29 - 00;05;25;14 Speaker 1 And I still don't like, like trauma porn, you know, where you just hear, like, beating after what? Being after rape. Being after, you know, like, assault after assault. I just wanted a book where it's like, no, black people have always refused. We have always fought back. We have always resisted. And we need to tell those stories. And that refusal has not always been a march or a protest that we've engaged white supremacy in just a variety of ways. 00;05;25;16 - 00;05;49;02 Speaker 1 And so is it Toni Morrison that say you need to write the book you want to read. And no, I said, okay, then I guess that's what I need to do. And so I approached this book by looking at refusal and a lot of different ways like Revolution, protection, force, light, joy. And it's not an exhaustive way of how we've attacked white supremacy, but it was it for me. 00;05;49;02 - 00;06;06;23 Speaker 1 It represented a lot of the ways that I've seen it play out in history, or I've seen it play out in my own personal life. And I just wanted to, to write that book and make it like my love letter to the black community, to our comrades in arms so that people could read it and that they could be encouraged and fortified. 00;06;06;25 - 00;06;16;13 Speaker 3 And so then, of course, there may be some people here who haven't gotten a chance to read the book, or it's been a while since they did. So do you mind reading a little section so people can get a little taste? 00;06;16;15 - 00;06;29;05 Speaker 1 So I have I'm going to read like two little sections. The first part is the, Prolog. The preface, if you will. And it's just a couple pages. 00;06;29;07 - 00;06;29;20 Speaker 3 It says in. 00;06;29;20 - 00;07;00;23 Speaker 1 December of 1934, W.E.B. Dubois completed what I believe is the crowning jewel of his scholarship, black reconstruction in America from 1860 to 1880, but over 700 pages of forceful writing. The book is a sweeping narrative that centers the contributions of black men and women who fought to liberate the enslaved during the Civil War and afterward, and to reconstruct the United States as democracy that would uphold and protect workers and their laborers. 00;07;00;25 - 00;07;28;06 Speaker 1 On the first page, Dubois writes a letter to his readers, a preface of sorts, in which he claims that this is a book for those who believe that black people are human beings. If the reader believes the Negro in America and in general is an average, an ordinary human being who under any given environment develops like other human beings, then he will read this story and judge it by the facts adduced. 00;07;28;09 - 00;07;55;09 Speaker 1 If, however, he regards the Negro as a distinctly inferior creation who can never successfully take part in modern civilization, and whose emancipation and enfranchisement were gestures against the nature, then he will need something more than the sort of facts that I have set down in America. Dubois asserts that the interplay between these ideas has given shape to every historical moment and movement affecting black people. 00;07;55;12 - 00;08;27;28 Speaker 1 When Americans argue over who should have access to schools, jobs, food, clean water, voting, health care or justice, we are essentially wrestling with the idea of black humanity as either a fact, an aspiration, or an aberration. Dubois was not interested in persuading people of black humanity. Neither am I. This book is about the ways that black people in America have responded to white supremacy, including force. 00;08;28;00 - 00;08;54;08 Speaker 1 The intrinsic belief in black humanity is essential to understanding black resistance to racial terror. While many stories of resistance involve extraordinary courage, most are about ordinary black folks demanding basic provisions or protections. And this book pushes against and beyond the dominant civil rights narrative that conditions us to see black people as worthy actors because of their commitment to nonviolence. 00;08;54;10 - 00;09;21;06 Speaker 1 Like Dubois, I'm going to tell this story with the implicit assumption that black people are ordinary human beings. In a world where speaking about Black Lives Matter is polemical, I am fully aware that this will greatly reduce my audience. Moreover, my audience will likely be additionally curtailed by the fact that I am writing about how black people respond to white violence and refuse white supremacy. 00;09;21;09 - 00;09;47;10 Speaker 1 Black liberation is actually not revolutionary for black people, but it is to white people. To white readers. My writing might sound extreme because I am, but that's not there. But that's because most, if not all white people are intensely invested in maintaining their position. And what then must me do? Leo Tolstoy, where I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me. 00;09;47;14 - 00;10;14;23 Speaker 1 And yet I assure myself and others that I am sorry for him and wish to lighten his load by all means, except by getting off his back. The formula for full humanity and equality is not complicated. It is not a differential equations or even multiplication. It's subtraction. And white people must be willing to relinquish and divest themselves from power structures that benefit only them. 00;10;14;25 - 00;10;42;01 Speaker 1 But often those in power cannot imagine change that is not amenable to their position or granted without a permission slip. We refuse is not a permission slip, but it does show a way of winning, equality and equity. Black liberation is possible. It can be accomplished and equally important. Sustained. But just because something is possible and sustainable does not make it easy. 00;10;42;04 - 00;11;06;24 Speaker 1 And this book I refuse the urge to solve problems with three point plans, slogans, DIY instructions or how to solutions. It combats the flimsy arguments that racism can be solved with the simple good idea, a kind word, or a stiff upper lip slapping an anti-racist on a work as though it can be certified and guaranteed, like an organic fruit, is a ruse. 00;11;06;26 - 00;11;33;22 Speaker 1 The work of liberation will not be solved or spearheaded by one person. The work of liberation will be collective and the work once it's concluded and once the work is concluded, it will not have to be done again. Dear reader, in the spirit of W.E.B. Dubois, I am writing to not only with the belief in black humanity, but also with a belief that in the pursuit of freedom, courtesy is not a virtue. 00;11;33;25 - 00;11;57;05 Speaker 1 The Irish poet and playwright Oscar Wilde was right when he argued the worst slave holders were those who were kind to the slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system from being realized by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who contemplate it. So in the present state of things, the people who do the most harm are the people who try to do the most good. 00;11;57;07 - 00;12;22;01 Speaker 1 And liberation is hard for white supremacists, and it is even harder for people who prefer to be benevolent masters. Many white people believe if they are nice, they can create a better world. And while amazing rationale to prefer to be a benevolent master as opposed to being a malevolent master, it is even more rational to ask why the system of slavery is presumed to be a requirement. 00;12;22;03 - 00;12;47;29 Speaker 1 That is, why does there have to be a master at all. In this sense, being nice is not only ineffective, but dangerous to black lives. Curtis. Curtis. Words Courtesy words such as please, thank you, you're welcome, and excuse me are empty. We should not believe in nice masters any more than we believe that white superiority is the natural order of things. 00;12;48;01 - 00;13;13;01 Speaker 1 Racism in America teaches a prevailing scared scarcity that there are not enough resources for everyone. It does not teach that that scarcity is created by white people hoarding unearned advantages and resources. This is the truth. We will not run out of homes if everyone has a house. We will not run out of jobs if everyone is properly educated. 00;13;13;04 - 00;13;44;18 Speaker 1 Homelessness is not required. Failing schools are not necessary. And in a democracy, voting is not a privilege, but a primary feature. Mass incarceration is not merely unfortunate, but unjust. We refused calls both on eschatology and artificial sky shortages, white fears, good intentions and nice masters. On this journey, we will refuse lies and resist the status quo, and together headed in a new direction. 00;13;44;21 - 00;13;49;13 Speaker 1 We will walk, run, limp, or even skip toward the light. 00;13;49;15 - 00;14;08;17 Speaker 3 You. Are there. You know, white supremacy are scary words. Also very little understood. But you tell a story about your great grandmother. I'm not going to give it away a little bit, but do you mind sharing that story? 00;14;08;17 - 00;14;33;20 Speaker 1 Sure, sure. I know the story that opens up the book. It's a story that my mother told me, about my maternal, great grandmother. Her name was, Nesta. And when our Nesta was nine years old, she stepped on a rusty nail and when she did that, her foot got infected. And it got so terribly infected that she became very, very ill and was on the brink of dying. 00;14;33;23 - 00;14;54;18 Speaker 1 And so her mother, Mary, brought her to the only doctor she knew, which was a white man who lived in this big house on the other side of town. And she said, you know, this is my child. This is my only child. Can you help my daughter? Can you save her life? And the white doctor said, sure, I'll help her on one condition. 00;14;54;20 - 00;15;23;10 Speaker 1 That after I heal her, she has to come and live with me and work for my family for the rest of her life. And I couldn't believe it. It was 1915. This is 50 years after slavery has ended. And white folks still felt entitled to black life and their labor in perpetuity. And so, because this was my great great grandmother's only child, she agreed that she didn't want her daughter to die. 00;15;23;13 - 00;15;55;29 Speaker 1 But her mother, whose name was Martha, refused. Martha was born into slavery. And she said, oh no, slavery is worse than death. You would rather have her die than have her live the rest of her young nine year old life with this white man, where she may face sexual and physical abuse. And so she picked up our Nesta, and she took her home, and there she either went into her cabinet or her garden, and she administered every natural remedy at her disposal, and she saved our ancestors life. 00;15;56;02 - 00;16;18;25 Speaker 1 But for the rest of our life, she walked with the limp. And I talk about this limp being a violent racial imprint on her body. And that to be black in America is to either choose death or life with the limp. That these are oftentimes the options that are presented in front of us. You know, do you want to die or do you want to be exploited for the rest of your life? 00;16;18;27 - 00;16;39;10 Speaker 1 And my grandmother refused that the set of terms. She refused. And she said, no, we will cover our own space of survival. And that that is where the book came from. It came from not just looking at our ancestors, but looking at my great, great great grandmother's refusal, to have her daughter granddaughter be in this situation. 00;16;39;12 - 00;16;51;28 Speaker 3 So what do you hope that your grandmother's story and all the stories, really we refuse, are going to teach people about what white supremacy really is and how black people have dealt with it. 00;16;52;01 - 00;17;18;16 Speaker 1 You know, I say all the time that white supremacy is violence. It's violence. It's not just the Klan or, you know, these very extreme, versions of violence, or we think about lynchings or sexual assault, but it's erasure. It is, theft. It is haunting. It is, you know, creating this proposal for a nine year old girl who stepped on a rusty nail. 00;17;18;16 - 00;17;53;24 Speaker 1 That is white supremacy. It is the idea also that that identity of whiteness as supreme is normal and natural and inevitable. And I want us to refuse that and say, no, this is not normal. This is not natural. And this is not, merely unfortunate, this, that we can't do anything about it, like bad weather, that we can refute these, these ideas, this power structure and that our refusal is also not limited to this binary of violence or nonviolence. 00;17;53;24 - 00;18;08;09 Speaker 1 And that's really what the introduction is about. I want people to have a much more expansive way of thinking about how to fight back, because I think what the media will tell you is that, like, oh, are you going to be violent? Are you going to be nonviolent? You know, are you going to march? Are you going to protest? 00;18;08;09 - 00;18;33;23 Speaker 1 Are you going to burn it all down as the whole? Like those are the only two options. We have to burn it all down or do like throw up a hashtag and it's like this, this. There's so many more tools available to us than that. And so the book is meant to be sort of a framework for thinking about how can we combat white supremacy and not be pigeonholed by these binaries of violence or nonviolence? 00;18;33;25 - 00;18;51;03 Speaker 1 That's not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's utility to all of it. But I think if my students have taught me anything, my students are Gen Z and they're like, binaries do not serve us. They do not serve us. You know, this is that it's good. It's bad. It's black and white. It does not work like that. 00;18;51;05 - 00;19;07;28 Speaker 1 So much of life is gray and nuanced and complicated. And so that is the kind of solution that I wanted to come up with to give you a diversity of tools, an array of tools, so that you could go and combat, white supremacy, either individually or collectively. 00;19;08;00 - 00;19;29;12 Speaker 3 And you give, an array of tools. And, you say that, you know, this is an all these are all the tools, but I'm picking five and one that you in the book and very particular that you kicked right out in the beginning is vengeance with vengeance. You say revenge is ridiculous and revenge is really ridiculous, but you do talk about. 00;19;29;12 - 00;19;36;09 Speaker 3 So could you talk a little bit about, the, the five that you do talk about, which is. 00;19;36;12 - 00;19;58;09 Speaker 1 Yes, revenge is not a topic. Revenge is not enough. And I put that in there because I think that one of the narratives we've been given about black people is that they're violent, and that all they want is revenge. All they want is to get whitey and somehow like, you know, reverse the roles and be like black Supreme and, black people want justice. 00;19;58;11 - 00;20;21;02 Speaker 1 Black people want justice. And I say that white people are actually not afraid of revenge. They are afraid of justice because justice is more costly. We actually don't have a narrative of or historical precedent of vengeance in this country. There are there's no sort of tit for tat. There are no white massacres where white towns are completely destroyed. 00;20;21;02 - 00;20;41;08 Speaker 1 There are no mass white lynchings. There are no poor little white girls killed in a church. There are no mass of shootings that take place in my churches. Were black people are perpetrating violence. Are black people are assassinating white leaders there? There is no historical precedent for that. So the idea of vengeance, I take that off the table because it's just it's ridiculous. 00;20;41;10 - 00;21;02;08 Speaker 1 But what I do put on the table is that book Revolution and the table, and I talk about the Haitian Revolution as being the starting point for how we should think about black liberation and freedom. You know, Frederick Douglass has this great quote where he says, you know, the freedom that we all experience today is a credit to the sons and daughters of the island of Haiti. 00;21;02;11 - 00;21;25;09 Speaker 1 He's not wrong. You know, like, you know, the Haitian Revolution is the only revolution that effectively abolished slavery, that in the United States, we have a war of independence, but we don't have revolution. We don't have broken systems that have replaced with justice systems. And so I want us to rethink what is revolution look like and how do we create new systems and reimagine new systems. 00;21;25;11 - 00;21;48;18 Speaker 1 And then I look at protection, how we protect one another. I look at force, and I look at how black people use guns to protect themselves from the Klan and the mob. I kind of reverse the narrative of how we think about black people in the Second Amendment. And then I talk about flight geeks, talk about how black people leave, how they like, you know, what we out like because my family, experienced that. 00;21;48;18 - 00;22;08;23 Speaker 1 My family, you know, is originally from Louisiana and from Mississippi. And they migrated up to Detroit when opportunities were better. And people do that all the time. Millions of black people leave the South for the North, or they leave the rural for the urban, or they leave the urban for the rural, or they leave the country, you know, all. 00;22;08;25 - 00;22;27;21 Speaker 1 So what does flight look like? And then the last chapter is joy. I see joy as a weapon. I see joy as a tool. I don't think you can do any of the work that we do without joy. And I really wanted people to have a different perspective on, like, how we can utilize these tools to create the world we want to live in. 00;22;27;23 - 00;22;40;27 Speaker 3 So in addition to all these other some other stories that you do tell about your ancestors. So there are some other ancestors in there other than our nest. You tell a lot of very personal stories in this book. 00;22;41;03 - 00;22;42;19 Speaker 1 This is not a memoir. 00;22;42;21 - 00;23;09;11 Speaker 3 It's not. But, and some of them are really heartbreaking. You talk about the death of your brother William and your sister Tracy. And William's, passing opens that chapter on revolution, and Tracy's opens the closing chapter on joy and the way that you write about them is so honest, so unguarded. And that in kind of grief and emotion, sense of loss isn't usually included in a history book. 00;23;09;13 - 00;23;35;22 Speaker 3 So why did you decide to bring these personal stories into this book? And what role do you think that grief or more to the point, loss and longing play in how we understand resistance, what it means, what it requires, and also add a little something else? I don't know if you've heard of this term is post-traumatic growth. I don't know if that resonates with you. 00;23;35;23 - 00;23;54;19 Speaker 3 Yeah. This idea that out of loss, out of trauma, we can honor what survives. And you have transformation in the week, and that that can be a form of resistance and refusal. So the notion is, well, why did you decide to bring your personal stories in? And what role do you think talking about loss and maybe thinking. 00;23;54;19 - 00;23;55;19 Speaker 1 About, 00;23;55;22 - 00;23;59;19 Speaker 3 Growth in the wake? It's a it's a form of resistance. 00;23;59;23 - 00;24;25;17 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's a pretty good question. Has anybody seen the movie Coco? The Disney movie Coco. So there's a line in the movie where it's like, you don't really die into the last person says your name. And I loved that idea of, like, Dia de Los mortis, where people are sort of remembering their ancestors. And, you know, I started out telling this story about our Nestor and I was like, oh, this is a great, you know, anecdote to sort of set up the book. 00;24;25;24 - 00;24;49;18 Speaker 1 And then I was like, you know, maybe I should start every chapter with a family anecdote or story as a selfish story, as a way to keep my family members alive so that anyone who reads this book, they will say Williams name, they will say Tracy's name. They will say, Nestor's name, and they will live on their stories will continue to, carry on throughout the generations. 00;24;49;18 - 00;25;11;17 Speaker 1 And it just wanted to give something to my parents, to my children. That would honor their stories and their legacy. And so, and I push back hard on this idea that, like, historians have to be objective. And, you know, you you check yourself at the door and you can't really, you know, be vulnerable or honest. And I don't do that with my students at all. 00;25;11;18 - 00;25;28;12 Speaker 1 I actually tell them, bring your whole selves to the classroom, because that is how you make sense of things. That is how you make meaning. You're going to take something that your father told you or your abuela told you, or your auntie told you, and you are going to use that to make sense of the world and how you want to engage with others. 00;25;28;19 - 00;25;52;09 Speaker 1 So bring yourself to the table. So I brought myself to this book a lot. And, and one of the ways I talked about both my brother and my sister in 2005, I'm one of seven. I'm number six. Six girls, one boy. And in 2005, my oldest sister, Tracy, and my only brother, William, passed away 13 days apart. 00;25;52;09 - 00;26;18;23 Speaker 1 Completely unrelated. My sister had breast cancer. She passed away Thanksgiving morning, and then we had her funeral. My brother spoke at the funeral, and then five days after the funeral, he was gone. He had, like, this weird infection. Pneumococcus. And he was gone. And we were really like, how are we doing two teen roles in two weeks? How does this. 00;26;18;25 - 00;26;41;03 Speaker 1 You know, it just felt overwhelming. And in that moment, I thought about, like, how you get through grief and how you navigate that because all of us in some point in our lives will experience grief. Whether big or small doesn't it doesn't matter. Could be a person. Could be a pet, could be loss of a job. 00;26;41;03 - 00;27;08;12 Speaker 1 Could be loss of a dream. We will all experience grief. And I wanted to think about how my family navigated that, because I think I can say, Thank God we are all healed from that loss. Still heartbroken, but healed from that loss. And I felt like the tools that we got could be tools for other people. And so, the way I think about grief and how you heal from it is with community, with others. 00;27;08;14 - 00;27;28;11 Speaker 1 So many people loved on us, so many people fed us and cared for us and just came over and did laundry, didn't even ask, you know, right now I'm like, are you cleaning dirty jobs? Like, you know, right. But like, people did that and they just came and they just blessed us and loved us and really ushered us through our grief. 00;27;28;11 - 00;27;52;03 Speaker 1 And I saw how the community could be a radical act of care that you could provide for someone, that you could protect, for people that you could love on people in this really meaningful way, and that that could be revolutionary. And so I write about in the chapter on Revolution, I write about my brother, and in the chapter on Joy, I write about my sister. 00;27;52;03 - 00;28;18;01 Speaker 1 And even though I say like it's really weird to start a chapter on joy with death, but, but I could not understand real joy until I experienced real grief. Because joy and grief go hand in hand. They're tethered together. I'm not talking about happiness. I'm talking about how you pull on spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, and everything that you need to survive. 00;28;18;03 - 00;28;21;03 Speaker 1 And joy is a part of them. 00;28;21;06 - 00;28;53;23 Speaker 3 So earlier when we were talking about your son William, I mentioned how we refuse as follows stories that don't often make it in the history books. And then just what you were talking about, about that community that just came through for you and your family are, you know, nameless, faceless, you know, people, to us, but I want to, you know, think about that a little bit about the ordinary people, because there are so many people, that in in your book that we've heard of before, a Toussaint novel overture, a John Brown, Ida B Wells, Daisy Bates. 00;28;53;25 - 00;29;16;20 Speaker 3 But they're also, your book invites us to really see them through a different lens as part of this really deeper, messier, radical tradition of resistance. And sometimes it won't in the ways that complicate the stories that we thought we knew about these people. Yeah. And then you have all these people that we probably most of us have probably never heard of. 00;29;16;24 - 00;29;41;12 Speaker 3 I'm just going to say a few of my favorite, my solitude. And there is an unnamed black woman who was, described as of great size, who helped to enslave women, fate slave catchers. There's a lives of Parker in her corn cutter. Yeah, Carrie Johnson, her gun, and, DC Everleigh Hairston. Yeah. And her scorching that white blouse. 00;29;41;15 - 00;30;04;18 Speaker 3 That's kind of. I look at that as first step to her walking out that plantation. So something that we refuse really drive home. Is that resistance didn't belong to just the big name folks or to these headline moments, and that it was happening everywhere. It was happening all the time. Black people were not just suffering quietly, they were simply enduring their oppression. 00;30;04;23 - 00;30;34;05 Speaker 3 They were constantly pushing back in all kinds of ways, and many of them were doing it in the shadows of history. Yeah. So I see there are two powerful messages of black history, which is, you know, we were just talking for a little podcast about like book banning and part of, you know, one thing that you mentioned is because those stories are so powerful, black history is so powerful because, because of the things that people don't get to hear, to often hear enough resistance was an exceptional. 00;30;34;07 - 00;30;52;26 Speaker 3 And it was enacted by people that we've been taught not to notice. So why was it important to you to challenge not just the absence of these stories, but the assumptions behind the absence of these stories? Who it is, who gets remembered, who who gets written out? Who gives written is forgotten. 00;30;52;26 - 00;30;53;05 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00;30;53;05 - 00;30;58;29 Speaker 3 And, for those who might not have read the book, The mechanism stories of a couple people who are your favorite? 00;30;59;00 - 00;31;17;25 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, in my classroom. So I teach at Wellesley College, and I tell my students all the time, I want to do two things. I want to give you someone new. I'm going to introduce someone to you that you've never heard of before. You never even considered. And then I want to tell you something new about something you think you know. 00;31;17;27 - 00;31;40;07 Speaker 1 So when I tell them about Rosa Parks and I'm like, you know, Rosa Parks talks about her kitchen table being covered in guns. What do you think about that? And they're like, wait, what? Like, oh, you know, like if I say something like, okay, you say you love Rosa Parks, quote her, quote her what she said. And they're like, she said, I'm like, you can quote Doctor King, why can't you grow Rosa bugs? 00;31;40;13 - 00;32;15;18 Speaker 1 So like trying to get my students to think more deeply about people that they think they know, and then just give them someone new. So some of my favorites were, solitude. Solitude is fighting during the French Revolution, the Haitian Revolution. She is a young woman, probably about 1920. She's about 7 or 8 months pregnant, and she is actively going to battle fighting the French and there is this powerful statue of her, both in Guadeloupe and in Paris, of this black woman with her hand on her hips with this full pregnant belly. 00;32;15;20 - 00;32;36;19 Speaker 1 And she is like giving it to the French, like given it, to the point where these Frenchmen are locked up in prison and solitude goes up to their cell, takes a rabbit, slits its throat in front of them, and says, that's what I'm going to do to you, I guess. And these French were like, oh my God. 00;32;36;19 - 00;33;00;14 Speaker 1 And she's pregnant. Like, it's not like they're in. Terrified. They leave her and they believe, oh, because she means it. She means it. And it's I mean, it's a tragic story because, you know, she she does not survive. And they actually capture her, and they wind up executing her. They wait until she has her baby to execute her, not as an act of mercy, but because her baby wasn't captured. 00;33;00;16 - 00;33;40;24 Speaker 1 Her baby was an enslaved person that they could have exploited. And she goes to the gallows, witnesses said, with pressing marks on her blouse. Just to reiterate just how much of a young woman and new mother this person was, and her courage is just. It's unforgettable to me. I think about Carrie Johnson, who was this 17 year old black girl who is living in Washington, D.C., and there's a race riot that takes place and, you know, she goes up to the roof of her house and a mob, over a thousand white people are storming her block, and they're shooting at black people, and they're dragging black people out of their homes, and 00;33;40;24 - 00;34;03;14 Speaker 1 they're beating them up. And she gets on her rooftop and starts taking pot shots like shooting down at the mob. And and it's just incredible to me that the cops break into her house. And, because the mob is like, hey, there's somebody shooting, you know, you got to go in this house and and get them. And, she hides under the bed on the second floor of her bedroom with her father. 00;34;03;14 - 00;34;24;18 Speaker 1 They're both hiding under the bed. The cops come into the home unannounced. They go up to the bedroom and she starts shooting from under the bed. And the cops are bewildered because they're like, where are these bullets coming from? And she kills a detective. She kills one of the police officers, and the police are just baffled because they're like, how old are you? 00;34;24;18 - 00;34;43;24 Speaker 1 You're 17. It's not her father. That's. It's Carrie, that shooting. And, And I won't tell you how her how her demise comes about, her outcome. Actually, it's it's it's incredible. Her story is kind of incredible. The book. Yeah. You got to read the book. You got to read the book. I won't tell you what happens, but it's incredible. 00;34;43;24 - 00;35;09;04 Speaker 1 But I was like this 70. Your girl has an 11 year old girl writing poetry about her, you know, and saying like, oh, my gosh, Carrie Johnson. Wasn't she, what? It sounds like Carrie Johnson. Wasn't she brave and keen? And she killed a detective that just 17 or something like that. I know it's like five. So there are all these stories of people that, I think are sort of nameless or faceless. 00;35;09;07 - 00;35;28;00 Speaker 1 But then they're the stories of people like Daisy Bates, the leader of the little Rock nine, who, I think is a fascinating person, but also is someone who is like packing a gun, you know, and like, someone like, throws a brick into her house and she comes out, like, locked and loaded and, like, one more time. 00;35;28;02 - 00;35;51;21 Speaker 1 Yeah. And it's like, dizzy, like, you know, you think about Elizabeth Eckford if you've ever seen, like, the iconic photos of the little Rock nine where Elizabeth Eckford doesn't get the memo because her family doesn't have a telephone, not to come to school to that day because there are mobs that are going to attack. And she is, you know, clutching her books as she's walking to try to get into the school building. 00;35;51;21 - 00;36;22;02 Speaker 1 And you see, you know, the white mob yelling at her, spitting at her, calling her slurs, all of these things. And that same night, Elizabeth Edwards mother calls Daisy Bates and says, since I need a gun, not I need a phone, but I need a gun, and I need it packed full of bullets. And I was like, I cannot imagine these two black women having a conversation about how they're going to protect their children, that that doesn't make it into the hallmark movie. 00;36;22;02 - 00;36;43;08 Speaker 1 You know, I just don't think it it's the stories we tell about the little Rock nine. And so, yeah, there's there's countless stories like that, but I really wanted to just give people a small taste of what, whatever. What our ancestors, what these deeply patriotic Americans have done to make this world more just for everyone. 00;36;43;11 - 00;36;57;23 Speaker 3 I only have about 15 minutes left. And so we will we'll definitely leave time for everyone here to ask some questions. So hopefully I can get these two in. I'm going to pick to be brief. So while I do want to talk about guns, so my book is in there, but do you mind showing the cover to you? 00;36;57;23 - 00;37;00;20 Speaker 3 Oh yeah. Tell us a little bit about this cover art. 00;37;00;22 - 00;37;25;22 Speaker 1 Sure. So, the cover is by a Brooklyn based artist. His name is Taha Clay. In, it's an actual painting, so it's called Soldier of Love. And my publisher, was in an art gallery, and he saw this huge picture. It's like seven feet by, you know, five feet. It's really big. And he said, wow, that looks like the cover to Kelly's book. 00;37;25;24 - 00;37;40;20 Speaker 1 And, and a lot of people don't know that. Others don't get control over their titles. They don't get control over their covers. I mean, you can say what you like or don't, but for the most part, the marketing team, the art team handles all of that. So he sent me this picture and he said, do you like this? 00;37;40;20 - 00;38;00;26 Speaker 1 Would you like it to be the cover of your book? And I was like, oh yeah, I, I just thought I was like, I feel like I know this woman. I mean, she, she is armed. She has got like a line of laundry in the back. So she had this beautiful, like, nest of locks on her head. I didn't realize this until after the book came out. 00;38;00;26 - 00;38;24;26 Speaker 1 My friend was like, do you realize her hands are right between the F and the U? And I was like, oh, I didn't realize I did that. F u is in the center of this book. I was like, oh, I kind of like it even more. So yeah, the book to me is just forceful and, with my first book for Some freedom, I did get to pick the cover for that too, so I'm like two for two. 00;38;24;26 - 00;38;42;00 Speaker 1 But in that one I said, I just want a pistol on the cover because it's about like abolitionists and they're fighting for freedom and I just want a gun. And my editor was like, are you sure you want a gun? I was like, yeah, because it's arresting. Like, and people will they won't even know what the book is about, but they will stop. 00;38;42;00 - 00;39;00;24 Speaker 1 And that's what you want. You want a cover that maybe they read it, maybe they won't, but they will give it a second look. And so it's funny though, because I have a very, like, uncomfortable relationship with guns, like people who think I'm locked and loaded. I'm like, no, actually, I just got my LTC like last month. 00;39;00;26 - 00;39;18;21 Speaker 1 I got it last year, last year, early last year, right before the election. But, but I did not go out with guns in my home. I did not grow up with like, a, you know, a family that hunted or anything like that. But my husband's family, they hunt a lot to hunt deer, and they're very big on guns. 00;39;18;21 - 00;39;44;22 Speaker 1 And so. And my husband was in the military, so I feel like I've had, a deeper appreciation for gun ownership, because of the people that I write about. But also a deeper appreciation for gun control, like, there's, you know, it goes hand in hand, but, I'm not quick to dismiss people that carry guns because I think that especially in the hands of black people, they're like, oh, he's a thug, he's a gangster or whatever. 00;39;44;22 - 00;40;00;00 Speaker 1 We always demonize it. But I think black people own guns for a purpose, a very important purpose. And that purpose, nine times out of ten, was protective, and it was oftentimes protective against white supremacy. And so I appreciate that. 00;40;00;02 - 00;40;05;03 Speaker 3 What I do want to say that and we refuse to talk about another one of your ancestors, grandmother Reader. 00;40;05;03 - 00;40;05;21 Speaker 1 Carter. 00;40;05;25 - 00;40;27;23 Speaker 3 You have that tiny, pretty fully loaded 22 pistol in her nightstand. And that image really stayed with me because it reminded me of my aunt who has passed away. She had a beautiful little, 22 with a mother of pearl handles when she was nine, and I know she was like, she knew how to use it because I, you know, when I was by far, she shot somebody who was coming from my mama. 00;40;27;26 - 00;40;28;11 Speaker 1 Jumped in. 00;40;28;11 - 00;40;31;01 Speaker 3 The car and drove me and my sister away. 00;40;31;04 - 00;40;32;20 Speaker 1 Oh, man. 00;40;32;22 - 00;41;00;28 Speaker 3 To right. And we refused. Guns were also a force, a bulwark against a hostile white supremacist world. In response to white terrorism, black women used guns to stop trouble, not start it. Yeah, this is the most important difference between white supremacy and black liberation. And so do you think that tension between protection and preparation is one that black families have always had to navigate? 00;41;01;06 - 00;41;12;19 Speaker 3 And like you can if you want to share about how you navigate that. But how did this writing, you know, this book help you make sense of that inheritance of having to protect your family? Yeah, but also prepare. 00;41;12;21 - 00;41;13;08 Speaker 1 You for your. 00;41;13;08 - 00;41;13;22 Speaker 3 Family? 00;41;13;22 - 00;41;42;29 Speaker 1 It gave me a deep appreciation. I mean, I, you know, I live in Massachusetts. The gun laws are very strict. I live in the suburbs. I have small children. I'm not particularly a fan of of guns or having an arsenal in my house. My context is different, though. If I grew up in the 1850s where there like no policing force, if I was in Mississippi in 1915, I would have a completely different outlook about how I understood gun ownership. 00;41;42;29 - 00;42;02;10 Speaker 1 And so I think context matters quite a bit. You know, if I'm out in the wild, wild West, she give me a gun, I'm playing her ass, you know what I mean? But today, in the context that I live in and I live in a very specific context, that doesn't, that mode of thinking doesn't always work for me, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for other black people in other areas. 00;42;02;17 - 00;42;40;15 Speaker 1 So I am flexible, or at least somewhat non-judgmental about how people make really hard decisions because they are hard decisions about how they're going to navigate their own protection. And when I think about people like Daisy Bates and people like Rosa Parks and people like I had to be Wells and what they were up against, how they were getting thrown from trains, how they were getting death threats, how they were having their houses bombed in their churches bond, you know, you have a deeper appreciation for things that for what they were up against and so, I just have a deep respect for gun ownership. 00;42;40;17 - 00;43;07;23 Speaker 1 But at the same time, I think it's complicated. And and it should be we shouldn't come to these things very frivolously, frivolously or superficially as though they don't matter. There's huge consequences for that. And the moment in which they were living in gun ownership was a necessity. So, when my grandmother passed away, you know, I had this version of her of being like, you know, the sweet lady who smells good and made, you know, lemon meringue pies and all of that stuff. 00;43;07;26 - 00;43;32;25 Speaker 1 And when we opened up her nightstand, there was the fully loaded 22 best waffle. And I was shocked because I was like, grandma's got a gun, you know, like that startled all of us. Even my dad. But then I realized my grandmother was a Southerner. You know, she grew up in Louisiana, and she told me that on the weekends, her brothers would go to jail voluntarily. 00;43;32;25 - 00;43;54;21 Speaker 1 And I said, what do you mean, they would go to jail on the weekends? And she said, yeah, because all the white men, they would get drunk on the weekends and they would lynch black people. And so if you were in prison, you were safe. And I was like, so what? No, like, I can't imagine on Friday night, you check yourself in with the sheriff, you sit in the prison cell until Sunday morning, then you leave and then you go to church or whatever, because jail was your alibi. 00;43;54;21 - 00;44;09;06 Speaker 1 If you were in jail. Well, you can't accuse me of raping someone. You can't accuse me of doing violence. And she talked about, I think it was my Uncle Gus who was like, you know, running behind the caravan. I'm like, don't leave me, don't leave me. I got to get to do like. But that is the world that she lived in. 00;44;09;06 - 00;44;15;24 Speaker 1 So gun ownership should not have at all been foreign to us. Because it was not foreign for her. 00;44;15;27 - 00;44;36;16 Speaker 3 Not. Do I have to say that you do talk about the, Black Panther Party and you talk about how the Panthers figured out that the greatest threat to white supremacy wasn't guns. Yeah. Or protection. Armed protection. But that, in fact, you wrote instead of guns, leadership realized the best defense to white supremacy was a third healthy and educated black populace. 00;44;36;17 - 00;44;40;11 Speaker 3 Oh, yeah. How they really, you know, kind of pivoted toward, that. 00;44;40;11 - 00;44;59;24 Speaker 1 Is community programs. I don't think people realize one year into the Black Panther Party, they're like, you know what? We got to put the guns down because actually we are more victims of violence than anything else. And what was threatening to FBI and Hoover and Cointelpro was not armed black men and berets. 00;44;59;27 - 00;45;00;12 Speaker 3 It was their. 00;45;00;12 - 00;45;09;26 Speaker 1 Breakfast program in and and their school programs. It was their ambulance and their health clinics and the like. If black folks get literate and fed and educated. 00;45;09;26 - 00;45;10;22 Speaker 3 Healthy, we are. 00;45;10;22 - 00;45;36;27 Speaker 1 In unhealthy. We are in trouble. Like white supremacy is at its weakest when black people are healthy and literate and, you know, cared for. And so they put everything into their free breakfast programs. It's why we have free lunch today in school, because of the Black Panther and the party and the model that they put out there. So I think of protection really is, the highest form of care, but that does not always take the form of a gun. 00;45;36;29 - 00;46;02;12 Speaker 1 And I think that that's why, again, context matters. The Black Panther Party understood. Like guns are actually not going to do us any favors. And a lot of them actually found their demise, you know, at the barrel of a gun as well because of how it was weaponized against them. And I also think that when the black Panther Party had more women take on leadership roles, they understood, no, no, no, we need to feed the children. 00;46;02;12 - 00;46;26;23 Speaker 1 We need to teach the children. We need to get healthy. We need to know the law. We need study. We need, you know, they changed their outlook. They even changed their ten point plan. They revised your entire ten point plan, to be one that was more care centered. So that to me is is a big takeaway because it sounds really exciting and I think cool to be like, oh, they went in guns blazing and it's like, no, no, no, they actually made breakfast. 00;46;26;26 - 00;46;40;18 Speaker 1 And the men were aprons and cooked because they were also trying to subvert gender roles and let children know that, yes, men cook and yes, men can serve, and yes, men can give you a great big hug and tell you to have a great day at school. And that's what they were doing too. 00;46;40;21 - 00;47;05;24 Speaker 3 Well, this is the last question, and I guess I'll open it up for everyone else. Now, your mom, your mother, novella, Carter edited a book recently. Yes. She did, called Woman to Woman, which is all about how black women draw on faith, joy, and resilience to navigate challenges. And that same spiritual DNA seems to be present in both her book, Woman to Woman and We Refuse. 00;47;06;01 - 00;47;22;17 Speaker 3 Both of them talk about grief. They both talk about joy. They both talk about endurance. Not as separate things, but as entwined. So how do you understand joy and especially black joy as both as sacred act and as an act of resistance? 00;47;22;20 - 00;47;53;04 Speaker 1 And these are such good questions. These are really good questions. Oh, wow. Joy is I'm going to steal from Miriam. Cabinet says hope is a discipline. Joy is a discipline. Joy is a discipline. You cannot just. Joy is not does. Oh, I found the dollar. You know, like joy is so much more than that. And I find that if I'm not careful, like I have to be protective of that, I have to make sure we are just talking about being workaholics and like how we just work, work, work, work, work. 00;47;53;04 - 00;48;20;08 Speaker 1 And it's like, what are you doing for Joy? How are you sustaining yourself? How are you giving your self-care so that you can give it to others? This past Saturday, actually, yeah. Last Saturday, I threw a garden party at my house and I did it because, I watched Netflix, Meghan Markle in the trash, and I saw that she, like, was doing all these really, like, you know, soft life, like, oh, I have these, you know, like flower petals and I sprinkle them on my eggs or whatever. 00;48;20;11 - 00;48;40;04 Speaker 1 And it's a very, you know, superficial, but and I actually question I was like, should I have this garden party? I don't this, I mean, this people are getting snatched up my eye is to some degree when, you know, like this, these are crazy times. And I was like, actually, no, Kelly, what is the last chapter of your book? 00;48;40;07 - 00;49;01;23 Speaker 1 And it's joy and it's joy. And we needed about 30 black women. We gathered together in my backyard. I gave everyone a copy of my mom's book. We did a plant swap. So it was like, come with a plant. It could be a flower, whatever you want to exchange. And then I had them ask two questions. I said, what are you planting in your life? 00;49;01;23 - 00;49;21;17 Speaker 1 Could be literal, could be metaphorical. And then what are you, weaving in your life? What do you uprooting in your life? And it was so powerful. I was also reading this book, Priya Parker's, like, how we gather. And she's like, you know, when you have a group of people that's like, bigger than 12, it's really hard to have intimacy. 00;49;21;23 - 00;49;29;15 Speaker 1 So when you have these gatherings, you have to be intentional. You have to set the terms like let people know what to expect. And so. 00;49;29;17 - 00;49;30;26 Speaker 3 I was shocked at how. 00;49;30;26 - 00;49;55;16 Speaker 1 All 30 women were so vulnerable and so honest and felt safe and felt lovely and beautiful and could talk about what they were planting in their lives, what they were uprooting in their lives, and then exchanging plans and, you know, taking pictures and just feeling soft, feeling lovely. It was so joyful that that is something that I have to practice in my life. 00;49;55;16 - 00;50;19;02 Speaker 1 I can't just say, you know, okay, I'm going to like, watch Netflix and chill, but like, how can I be intentional about not just creating joy for myself, but curating joy for everyone around me? And then those women will take that joy and they'll give it to someone else. Because Joy can be contagious. It really can. And so and that's how I'm practicing and in patriarchy and empowering. 00;50;19;02 - 00;50;20;11 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00;50;20;14 - 00;50;22;24 Speaker 3 Right. So thank you so much. 00;50;22;24 - 00;50;27;12 Speaker 1 Thank you, thank you. Do we have time for a few questions. 00;50;27;12 - 00;50;32;24 Speaker 3 We do. Do we have time for a few questions. That they have on. 00;50;32;25 - 00;50;58;21 Speaker 2 Nope okay. Oh I'm Lao I so am I. Can I go to four. And so I'm real loud here. I want to thank you for coming down. Sabotage power here. You power up the media head at that spot. Which and by Garbus. Very. You know, are it on display live and enacted. So I try to come back down to where you had that. 00;50;58;21 - 00;51;36;03 Speaker 2 Erica and I just wanted to explore what, that they they were so, I'm an educator and, a montessori sister animal college. Civitas. So I have a particular love of history and adequate stories. That. And when you talk about the prospect of the vanquish versus the vanquisher and how our stories are told from the visual respect that it clicked in me that I couldn't take it for granted, that my children, who happens, was harmed by this rule. 00;51;36;09 - 00;52;04;02 Speaker 2 But it is. So do private or public education were not taught to question the source of the storytelling? So I thank you also for being, intimate about telling your what is experience with the super cell and how for that reason, you had an eye for your and and what you tie together with this story of while in solitude. 00;52;04;02 - 00;52;27;15 Speaker 2 I was. Yes, yes. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. It's it's weird a place now where I'm not okay if we're too comfortable. They got comfortable me complacent. I have some brand on one end of the spectrum, as I was saying. Read that the vested part is to value your peace. Protect your peace. But I've also friends who say yes, right? 00;52;27;15 - 00;52;50;12 Speaker 2 Says risk rejoices, but not to get complacent. Yeah. Not digging. No, not to be apathetic or to turn a blind eye. Yeah. And so I see plenty here. Yes, I have a you but you also have a couple birds. Your birthday. Me the, the the cop in it. So write a book of plans and say some of these things out loud that he's out. 00;52;50;14 - 00;53;23;00 Speaker 2 Hey, they weren't last week. Okay? So it's like you and your son. I street that devastation of the lights in Los Arbor before Dana. Haruto. Really good point about Joy, right? Oh, did a verdict this Alabama rock Brian joy okay I joy and they're a reflection of why our joy always has to come at their spare. You know, more accurate than that bullshit that loss or lack. 00;53;23;00 - 00;53;50;24 Speaker 2 Oh what they need now if I cared about them. They who got kicked when share. But when not what you see me would a white bullet chair. You know with that mute that I refuse. So I appreciate you for the ripple effect day UK poverty copper hair, for being authentic and creating spaces for accountability. Creating spaces where we don't have to chow chow and bow our heads echoed. 00;53;50;24 - 00;53;57;21 Speaker 2 Are you going to get this art name Britney or not? That's the way that we to touch it. Thank you. 00;53;57;21 - 00;54;01;12 Speaker 1 Yes yes yes isn't it. Is are you. 00;54;01;12 - 00;54;02;26 Speaker 3 One else have any questioning. 00;54;02;28 - 00;54;05;24 Speaker 1 Not much really. Give me a hug you know. 00;54;05;27 - 00;54;08;15 Speaker 2 Thank you, thank you. 00;54;08;17 - 00;54;24;00 Speaker 1 Thank you so much. Listen, this is why we do what we do. This is why we do what we do. Absolutely love it. Hello. How are you doing? Good of my shoe. Thank you once again for speaking. I really appreciate it. I thought your message was amazing. Can everybody hear me in the back to them? 00;54;24;00 - 00;54;33;06 Speaker 1 Okay. Thank you. So my question is more about the, refuse and the resistance. So as someone who is currently in her undergrad, my question was, how do. 00;54;33;06 - 00;54;33;23 Speaker 3 You see the. 00;54;33;23 - 00;54;37;22 Speaker 1 Themes of refusal and resistance in your book, shaping the understanding of. 00;54;37;22 - 00;54;39;07 Speaker 3 Justice today, especially. 00;54;39;07 - 00;55;04;19 Speaker 1 For young black leaders or future young black leaders, and for young black children like your son and your daughters? That's good, that's good. Tell me your name. Oh, Taylor. Zander Taylor. Oh God. Yes, yes. My sister today DC for a while. My family's all in Houston. There's a line in the book where I say, resistance is how we respond to white supremacy. 00;55;04;22 - 00;55;25;23 Speaker 1 Refusal is why. It's the why. So resistance being like, are you going to protest? Are you going to boycott or you going to strike? Like, how are you going to engage? But if you don't understand why you're doing it, if you don't have the core sort of root of why you're working for justice, then then all of your efforts are sort of in vain. 00;55;25;23 - 00;55;43;21 Speaker 1 And so writing about refusal for me was getting to people to understand the why of it all. Because I think we get too caught up in the method and what are we doing and what's it gonna look like? And, and all of those, those things matter. But I just wanted to go back to the basis of, like, why? 00;55;43;26 - 00;56;03;19 Speaker 1 So when I'm talking about my kids, we talk a lot about the why, the injustice, why things are the way that they are. What do we do when it's not right? How do we respond to that? How do we get other people to care and have empathy about those things that we value? So the why, for me matters a great bit. 00;56;03;21 - 00;56;38;25 Speaker 1 And the way I did that was, I mean, one life would get to you, but like I read a lot, I read voraciously. We were just talking about this, how literature creates empathy, how literature gives you alternative experiences, how you can read about a character and connect with that character. And now you have a way to, I mean, Baldwin Books is so amazing because you have like thousands of Ys right on those shelves of like that will give you all the of the information that you need to motivate you to think about, like, okay, I have a Y. 00;56;38;26 - 00;57;06;00 Speaker 1 So now how do I address this? What does that what does resistance look like from me. So your resistance can be intentional and specific. It won't just be reactionary ideas all march, but it can be like, how can I take my gifts and talents? And what are you majoring in? My English with a minor in pre-law? Yes. How can you take that major and be intentional and specific about how you address the things that are affecting yourself, your family, your community? 00;57;06;07 - 00;57;25;20 Speaker 1 You absolutely can. But that specificity matters because if you don't have specificity, you are going to be trying to swallow the ocean. And none of us can swallow the ocean. You know, I stay in my lane, I write books, I teach. If you ask me to do math, I'm in trouble. Like if you ask me to plant a garden, I'm in trouble. 00;57;25;20 - 00;57;32;09 Speaker 1 You know, I stay in my lane and. And refusal gives me that way. And we think you. 00;57;32;09 - 00;57;59;23 Speaker 1 Thank you for spending time with us and for being a part of the Baldwin Co community. Every listen helps to keep the conversation alive. So thank you for listening. And if you believe in the work that we're doing, building literacy, nurturing curiosity and investing in our city, please, please, please consider supporting to the Bone and Co Foundation. You can go on to that Bco foundation at org. 00;57;59;23 - 00;58;19;15 Speaker 1 You can make a donation or you can just go to WW Baldwin or call books.com. You can follow us on our socials just at Baldwin and Company. So make sure you follow us. Check us out, subscribe. If you want to watch the video portion of this podcast and all of our podcasts, definitely check out our YouTube channel. 00;58;19;16 - 00;58;40;25 Speaker 1 It's just Baldwin and co on YouTube. Put it in the search and it'll come right up. So thank you so much. Please. Your donations, a few, programs that open doors our kids and our neighborhoods. And, when you're ready for your next great read, make sure to visit us online at Baldwin and Co. Every book you buy to help us just keep the movement going. 00;58;41;00 - 00;58;59;08 Speaker 1 If you're in New Orleans, make sure to stop by. Our address is 1030 Legion Fields Avenue. Come by and check us out. Get a good book, hang with us, get a good cup of coffee, and, look forward to seeing you. Have a good one.