What Firstborn Girls Carry - Bernice McFadden

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;23;14 Speaker 1 Hello everyone, and welcome to the Baldwin Nicole podcast. My name is DJ Johnson and I am the founder and CEO of Baldwin, a cold coffee shop and bookstore. We are a dope space located in the Marigny area of New Orleans. Next time you're in the area or in New Orleans, you need some intellectual stimulation. Make sure to drop by. 00;00;23;16 - 00;01;00;03 Speaker 1 So today we have a fantastic conversation today in featuring Bernice McFadden. And she is an award winning novelist. Whose work explores black womanhood, ancestry, trauma, and survival through local, historical, grounded storytelling. Some of her most popular books are sugar Glory Is Gathering of Waters, The Warmest December, Praise Song for the butterflies, and Nowhere. As a place in the conversation that she's in today is about her latest book called Firstborn Girls, which is actually a memoir. 00;01;00;05 - 00;01;38;17 Speaker 1 And in this conversation, she frames Firstborn Girls as both a personal excavation in a national dialog. Knox's diagnosis, arguing that family history in American history are bound by repeating cycles of violence, survival and rage. And, she uses the intimate lives of black women, especially firstborn daughters and mothers, to expose how history rhymes across generations. So it's, like that Mark Twain quote where he says, history may not always repeat itself, but it often rhymes. 00;01;38;20 - 00;02;10;18 Speaker 1 So she treats anger not as a flaw, but as a necessary force for truth telling, while writing itself becomes a means of release, protection and survival, and to unsentimental storytelling in some dark humor and ancestral memory. She insists that specificity reveals a universal American story. We can no longer afford to ignore it. It's a very intriguing conversation. I think you will absolutely enjoy it. 00;02;10;21 - 00;02;33;15 Speaker 1 As always, make sure that you listen, like, subscribe and share with at least one person. If you want to check out the YouTube version of this talk, please go on our YouTube channel. And it's just Baldwin a code. Go to all. Go to YouTube and type in Baldwin and Co in the video version of this talk. And all of our other talks will come up. 00;02;33;18 - 00;02;38;29 Speaker 1 Thank you for support. Let's get into it. Enjoy. 00;02;39;02 - 00;03;00;05 Speaker 2 Okay. So I start with asking you a few questions, but I want to say. Nice to meet you again. After being able to read this, I feel like I know you even more. And I'm sure you're going to take us on a journey through how you came to write this memoir and really give us an insight into your story. 00;03;00;05 - 00;03;31;00 Speaker 2 So my first question is this memoir interlacing individual, family and collective histories? You call it an auto ethnography. And as two women who often talk about outrage is very much a coming of age story where you're talking about your ascent in to your rage. So I'd like to know, what did you come to understand through analyzing your experiences doing this auto ethnography work as a first born girl and then what did you come to learn about writing? 00;03;31;00 - 00;03;33;02 Speaker 2 About race going girls? 00;03;33;04 - 00;03;59;04 Speaker 1 So what did I come to understand? I never really had a definition for first born girls. I've been using it for quite some time. I actually have a a blog that I started in early 2000 school firstborn girls. But when I decided that I wanted to write a memoir about myself that made me uncomfortable. The whole navel gazing. 00;03;59;07 - 00;04;23;00 Speaker 1 So I was like, well, I have to write about my family. I have to write about my mother and my grandmother, the women who made me. So it's really more of a bio memoir. But then in writing about them is like, how could I avoid writing about the country they were born into, the country I was born into? 00;04;23;01 - 00;04;34;27 Speaker 1 So that's where the auto ethnography came in. What did I learn? Firstborn girls are resilient. 00;04;37;09 - 00;05;04;02 Speaker 2 And thinking about this, when I read this, it resonated with me. Not necessarily as a first born girl, but as someone who does a lot of the work and does a lot of the labor. As in like a second parent. I think that is interesting to see and read this in light of conversations about elder daughter syndrome and of the psychological impacts of doing that work. 00;05;04;03 - 00;05;14;19 Speaker 2 So, also would like to know about how this shape your perspective on motherhood. 00;05;14;21 - 00;05;43;11 Speaker 1 How does this shape my perspective on on motherhood? Motherhood is tough. Motherhood is hard. Hard work. It's it's loving work, but it's difficult work. And, I always find it interesting when people write about parenting, and they don't have children, and that's. And that bothers me so much. I would never do this. I would never do that. 00;05;43;15 - 00;06;08;24 Speaker 1 You don't know what you would do until you are put in that position, right? So that's something that I have to, you know, I've learned to deal with when I, when I hear people make statements and I'm like, it's it's easy to say something until you find yourself in those shoes right. So yeah, motherhood is hard. 00;06;08;27 - 00;06;37;04 Speaker 2 Motherhood is hard. And first one, girls are resilient. So earlier you talk about how this is a story of America, and you mentioned that in your author's note. You say this is a story about my family. This is a story about America. You start this memoir. You started this memoir, writing it during the pandemic and the second cresting of the Black Lives Matter movement, and Firstborn girls has hit the shelves, and I'm very critical time in America. 00;06;37;05 - 00;06;44;24 Speaker 2 So what is that story of America that you are telling? And how does that story merge with the story of your family? 00;06;44;27 - 00;07;06;14 Speaker 1 So, when I was researching the memoir, I did a lot of Google searches, I read a lot of books, and I came across this quote, and I was like, this is this is the essence of the book. So is the Mark Twain quote. And the quote, girls, that history may not always repeat itself, but it often rhymes. 00;07;06;16 - 00;07;33;25 Speaker 1 And I found that in my family, and I found that in America, in history, we're seeing this again. I mean, we're seeing this now. Nikole Hannah-Jones is calling this the second the dare. This is what happened in 1877 when they ended reconstruction. They rolled everything back. So when I started thinking, I was angry, obviously, I was very angry. 00;07;33;25 - 00;07;51;03 Speaker 1 I'm still peeved, but I know that we've been here before because it's just like it's the cycle. And I know I come from, you know, a family of strong women. They survived and I will survive. It will all survive. It will. 00;07;51;06 - 00;08;06;13 Speaker 2 Survive it. And I know that you are going to bless us with some of the texts and read some of that for us. I think that that. So that moment for you to give us a little something for our first born girl. 00;08;06;13 - 00;08;13;06 Speaker 1 So this is a really heavy book. So I'm going to read something that's light and funny. 00;08;14;05 - 00;08;50;15 Speaker 1 This is, about my my Aunt Anna, who's one of my favorite aunties. While Thelma was petite, that's my grandmother, save for her book, some bosom. Anna was taller, with wide hips and thick legs. She had a penchant for small, delicately framed men. Or. Or maybe they had a pension for her. She and her men always look like the physical manifestation of the number ten. 00;08;50;17 - 00;09;14;09 Speaker 1 She and Benny. This is, She was dating a jockey. So tiny. Ma'am, she and Benny became an item. And before long, he was spending his days off in Brooklyn with her. For a while, it was heaven. And then one night, after one too many drinks, he hit her and unleashed hell. Vivian. That's my mother. And Peggy. This. 00;09;14;09 - 00;09;39;25 Speaker 1 And his daughter, who were in the living room at the time, scrambled to the kitchen for safety. From there, they watched Anna transform into a welterweight wrestler. After he hit her, Anna grabbed Benny by the throat, lifted him off the couch and shook him like a rag doll. His limbs were still flapping when she slammed him face down on the floor, dazed. 00;09;39;27 - 00;10;03;12 Speaker 1 He twisted his head around on his neck and gazed up at her in disbelief. He opened his mouth to speak, but she was on him again. After a few cuffs to the head, Anna took hold of his collar with one hand, the other she hooked into the waistband of his trousers. Hold him up from the floor and heaved him onto the expensive looking glass mahogany coffee table. 00;10;03;15 - 00;10;30;13 Speaker 1 The impact sent shards of glass everywhere. That's the first time Peggy and Vivian ever saw a man cry. Did he call the cops? I asked after hearing the story for the first time. Did you? Vivian laughed. Which is black. Speak for hell, no. Afterward, Anna patched his lacerations and they crawled into bed together. The next day he left and never came back. 00;10;30;16 - 00;10;56;23 Speaker 1 When I first heard this story, I found it unbelievable because Anna was the gentlest, kindest, most generous and loving person I knew. I'd seen her frustrated, peeved even, but never enraged. While her temper was a mystery to me, it was legendary with other family members and people who lived in the Brooklyn housing projects. Her daughter Peggy, was just 16 when she gave birth to her first son, Wayne. 00;10;56;25 - 00;11;21;19 Speaker 1 Earl came the following year and James in 1966, when she was 19 years old. There was a fourth boy named Benjamin, whom Anna took in and raised as her own when his mother couldn't. This quartet of boys were affectionately Miss Rosa's boys, and woe to the person who ever brought harm to any one of them. The man who owned the corner store learned that the hard way. 00;11;21;22 - 00;11;46;18 Speaker 1 One afternoon, Anna decided to make one of her famous six layered coconut cakes. She had all of the ingredients, but was low on flour, and so sent James across the street to get a fresh pack. The store owner knew James. In fact, he was well acquainted with the entire family. So why he got it in him to slap James simply because he'd made direct eye contact with him remains unanswered. 00;11;46;20 - 00;12;15;07 Speaker 1 Eyes tearing. James ran back home, holding his stinging cheek. What happened to you? And where's my flower? Anna asked over the mixing bowl. He. He slapped me, James said, sniffling. Anna's brown eyes turned black. He who? She growled. The man at the store. Anna pulled herself up from the table, throwing her coat over her house dress. She didn't bother to put on shoes, just beeline it out of the apartment in her slippers. 00;12;15;09 - 00;12;41;01 Speaker 1 It was late October. Chilly, but not freezing. Anna tramped across the fallen leaves, crossing the street against the light, throwing death stares at the motorists, angrily honking their car horns at the store. The man looked up to see Anna's march, to see Anna marching through the doorway with all four boys, until she said her clenched fists on her hips and fixed her eyes on his. 00;12;41;03 - 00;13;01;17 Speaker 1 Did you hit my boy? The man didn't miss a beat. Yes I did. Why? Because he was looking at me. Anna's first ball. Tighter. You see these boys? She said, sweeping her arm over their heads. These here are my boys, and I'm the only one who hit them. Who hits them? You better not ever lay nam one finger on them ever again. 00;13;01;17 - 00;13;24;11 Speaker 1 You hear me? The man's lips curled into a simpering smile, and she added, leaning in so close that he could smell the Pepsi Cola on her breath. If you do, I'll kill you. The man rolled his eyes and chuckled. Get out of my store! Anna gave him one last long fuming look and turned around. Come on boys, she commanded. 00;13;24;14 - 00;13;49;07 Speaker 1 The family filed out of the store. Maybe the proprietor had made a habit of slapping children without consequence. Maybe he had never had a woman threaten to kill him. Whatever the case, he was, shall we say, perturbed. And before Anna could cross the street, he launched a 40 ounce bottle of Colt 45 at her back. It missed and shattered on the ground, wetting her legs. 00;13;49;09 - 00;14;15;03 Speaker 1 Stunned, she spun around and stared down at the broken glass and puddle of beer, foaming at her feet. Her lips parted and then closed. She took a deep breath, glanced up at the sky, and then down at her terrified boys. Go home. Get home now, she demanded in a calm and even voice. Go on. It's okay. The children scampered across the street, but did not go into the apartment building as ordered. 00;14;15;10 - 00;14;36;23 Speaker 1 Instead, they huddled together in the courtyard to watch what happened next. Anna shoved her hands into the coat pockets and rocked back on her heels. Her eyes ranged across the front of the store from the owner's vantage point. Anna seemed to be sizing it up just as he opened his mouth to holler at her. Anna's right hand rocketed from her pocket. 00;14;36;25 - 00;14;57;25 Speaker 1 In her hand was a snub nosed 45. She aimed and fired. The man hit the floor, throwing his arms protectively around his head. After she emptied the magazine, she strolled across the street as if nothing at all had happened. Seeing the boys gaping at her, Anna said, didn't I tell you how to take your black asses in the house? 00;14;57;27 - 00;15;24;04 Speaker 1 The boys ran into the building and up the stairs. The man lay there for a long while, whimpering into the linoleum and squirming in his urine soap pants. When he finally summoned the courage to pull himself up off the floor, he saw that the windows were riddled with bullet pits. Now, when I heard this story, I posed the same question I had after hearing the first story about my sweet on Anna. 00;15;24;06 - 00;15;33;17 Speaker 1 Did someone call the cops? Did you? 00;15;33;19 - 00;15;59;24 Speaker 2 And I say, that's one of my favorite parts. And I'm glad you gave us permission to last up there, because I was like, am I supposed to be laughing? Is this supposed to bring me zeal? Or is it absolutely the case? But I'm also glad that, as you were reading, you explained who is who. Because one of the questions that I have here is, can you discuss your decision to use your family members first names you refer to, your aunties, your mother? 00;15;59;24 - 00;16;02;21 Speaker 2 Yeah. First names? 00;16;02;23 - 00;16;36;21 Speaker 1 It was important. All right. Let me back up. I had to create distance. Right. So if I'm writing about my people. But to say, like mommy and daddy and I wouldn't have been able to tell an authentic, fully realized story. They're real truths. So they had to become characters for me, right? So, Robert. Vivian, Anna, Thelma, that's I had to create that distance. 00;16;36;23 - 00;16;41;09 Speaker 1 So yes, it's a trick of the imagination, I guess. 00;16;42;19 - 00;17;03;06 Speaker 2 And I think that that's interesting to have that trick of the imagination, especially since this is your first long nonfiction work. But what has been the response from your family members who are still with us, if they've had an opportunity to read this? And if you've had some conversations with them about what you were going to present about their stories. 00;17;03;08 - 00;17;43;29 Speaker 1 I didn't share anything. I didn't I didn't share any of the text with them. I did I had a lot of conversations with my mother. I did have two conversations with some cousin, and, but no, I didn't. I didn't show anyone anything. Now, I recently had a conversation with my mother when the book was published, and I gave her a copy as I was concerned because I, you know, I'm writing about some very personal things that she doesn't remember. 00;17;44;02 - 00;18;09;00 Speaker 1 Right. She's 82. She had a head injury back in 2016, so it wiped out, thankfully, a lot of things. But my concern is that she'll read it and it'll open the door. So I'm I had that conversation with her and I'm writing some really heavy stuff. I don't want you to get upset, and I don't want to retraumatize you, and I don't want you to get angry. 00;18;09;02 - 00;18;17;26 Speaker 1 So on film, I tape this and she was like, oh no, it's fine, I'll be fine, I'll be fine. And then when I turned it off, she said, well, I'm. 00;18;17;29 - 00;18;28;14 Speaker 1 Your truth and my truth may not align and I'll let you know. And I was like, and that's fair, because truth is subjective, right? Memories. Subjective. Sorry. Memories subjective. 00;18;28;16 - 00;18;34;20 Speaker 3 Sorry, sorry. So make sure the subjective. 00;18;34;22 - 00;18;35;29 Speaker 1 Memory is subjective. 00;18;36;01 - 00;19;01;03 Speaker 2 Yeah I love that. Or response. I think that's interesting that you didn't bring it to the. Because when I think about all the rawness that's here, all the truth that is here, all the memories that you're recalling, I just think about, my family, other black families and how those secrets, those traumas, people take them to their graves. 00;19;01;07 - 00;19;12;21 Speaker 2 I think that, was really, again, excited to read this story and see that vulnerability and reintroduce myself to you. 00;19;12;23 - 00;19;36;22 Speaker 1 I will say I'm sorry. I will say that I did get a call from a cousin in Georgia, and she's like, girl, Karen is having a fit. And I was like, I don't even know who's Karen. I don't even know who Karen is. And it's a cousin. And I was like, why is she upset? It's just she just learned that her grandfather wasn't her grandfather from reading the book. 00;19;36;24 - 00;19;45;28 Speaker 1 And I was like, the more, you know. 00;19;46;01 - 00;19;47;00 Speaker 2 The more. 00;19;47;02 - 00;19;48;03 Speaker 3 The more. 00;19;48;08 - 00;20;14;04 Speaker 2 You know. So one of the things that I've heard you talk about is the crafting of this term, Angel Sasser, which I think is so beautiful and so central to the work that you have been doing. So, you coined the term while you were writing this. Can you talk about what inspired that term? 00;20;14;07 - 00;20;37;29 Speaker 1 So, I was writing I was not I had decided not to go back and edit as I was writing, because it was just taking up a lot of time, and it's become really obsessive. So I said, I'm just going to plow forward and I don't know, I probably wrote for a week. And then I said, all right, now let me go back and just read through. 00;20;37;29 - 00;20;59;06 Speaker 1 And, you know, on word, if you're working with word, if you misspell a word, then there's like a squiggly red line. So there were these squiggly red lines. Squiggly red lines. In fact, Angel says the what is that? So obviously I'm thinking ancestor, but I'm writing angels as to subconsciously I'm not doing it. They're doing it right. And so I was like, 00;20;59;08 - 00;21;28;15 Speaker 1 That's an interesting word. Is it a real word? I googled it, it didn't exist. And I was like, I called my attorney. I was like, hey, I got this where we got to trademark this immediately. So that's how it came about. But, I mean, that's how that's what my process is like. That is very magical. So the definition is, a divine ancestor that protects and guides, protects and guides the living. 00;21;28;17 - 00;21;29;19 Speaker 1 That's it. 00;21;29;22 - 00;21;54;27 Speaker 2 I love that that's so beautiful. And your angel sisters has obviously inspired you to write this work. And we see that in the physical manifestation of them kind of showing up in what is what would be perceived as a typo, but is actually a divine intervention. Yeah, but thinking about that and thinking about inspiration, you also call on and recognize your literary inspiration. 00;21;54;28 - 00;22;12;11 Speaker 2 So you mentioned Alice Walker, Toni Morrison, J. California Cooper, and you refer to them as critical parts of your literary genealogy tree. Are there any other writers who are part of that genealogy DNA? 00;22;12;13 - 00;22;44;20 Speaker 1 Do they all have. Well, some some are still with us and some have passed on. Lucille Clifton. Have any of you read her her memoir, generations? There's another one. I was just looking this up today. I have my notes because I'm menopausal. I can't remember anything. So here's an interesting thing that I discovered about Gloria Naylor. 00;22;44;22 - 00;23;18;07 Speaker 1 She's part of that tree, too, right? So she. Her journey was similar to mine. She had this education. She's reading, she's writing, but she had never read a black author until I think she was at Yale. So she was growing around, right? And it was, I think it was The Bluest Eye, but Toni Morrison and so Toni from Toni Morrison's, she went to Alice Walker and I did it in reverse. 00;23;18;07 - 00;23;59;24 Speaker 1 I went from Alice Walker to Toni Morrison, and she was here at Tulane in 1989. She was visiting author in 1989. And, she died in 2016. No. Yeah. 2016 when I came down here to New Orleans. So I'm always, like, making these connections. So that was something that I discovered recently. Zora Neale Hurston obviously like to go on and on. 00;23;59;24 - 00;24;07;16 Speaker 1 There's so many. I think I'll actually create a tree, illustrate a tree at some point. A little bit. Yeah. 00;24;07;18 - 00;24;33;04 Speaker 2 In the spirit of Women's History Month. Yeah. So see see that for sure. As I've told you this hour, maybe I had not told her this, but the when I started reading and I opened the book to what I believe is the, Prelude to your life. I read that first line, and I closed this book shut. 00;24;33;04 - 00;24;55;03 Speaker 2 Okay. But when I got deeper into the book and you start talking about your publishing journey with sugar, which is your first novel. You mentioned that you read about the importance of the first line grasp, meaning the reader. So is that something you consciously thought about with that opening line in the staging of that preview? 00;24;55;06 - 00;25;23;03 Speaker 1 So I had to go back to that, that first book, because I, I had so many different openings for the memoir, and I write in the memoir about me struggling with the opening for sugar and the voice, like, just say the thing. This is the thing, dude. Was that just say it. And so I had to, you know, take that same journey with the memoir is like this to say this thing. 00;25;23;05 - 00;25;33;12 Speaker 1 And so, yeah, but I'm in class. I'm like the importance of the the importance of the first line, the opening line. You want to hook your fish. 00;25;33;15 - 00;25;33;26 Speaker 2 And I. 00;25;33;26 - 00;25;34;25 Speaker 1 Release it in. 00;25;34;26 - 00;25;39;01 Speaker 3 I'm sure. 00;25;39;03 - 00;25;43;17 Speaker 2 And I don't know if. Were you planning on reading that part for us today or, you know, the. 00;25;43;19 - 00;25;52;02 Speaker 1 Two or below? I don't know. So I don't know more. Let me see. Now, wait a minute. Let me see. Because I don't want to be up here weeping. 00;25;52;04 - 00;25;55;07 Speaker 2 So I don't want you to be up here weeping. 00;25;55;09 - 00;25;57;22 Speaker 1 You can read me. 00;25;57;25 - 00;26;05;24 Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay. Then skills. Like I said, it. 00;26;05;26 - 00;26;09;08 Speaker 2 But what if I only read the first? 00;26;09;10 - 00;26;10;23 Speaker 3 Good. 00;26;10;26 - 00;26;32;28 Speaker 2 Okay, so the first thing I want to tell you is that on September 27th, 1967, I died. I was only two years and one day old. Two days before the death of my mother, Vivian and I flew home from New York to Cleveland, Ohio, to visit Jane fourth and his wife, Juliet. I had a little ball headed to. 00;26;33;04 - 00;26;55;24 Speaker 2 I was a little ball headed toddler, and my mother was 24 years old with CoverGirl looks. When Vivian was a child, her mother, Thelma, had been romantically involved in a relationship with James for us, and that was as passionate as it was violent. It was a vicious cycle, one that Vivian would relive in her own marriage. However, by 1967, James and Thelma Shirley history was like water under the bridge. 00;26;55;27 - 00;27;16;18 Speaker 2 The former lovers were friendly, now telephoning each other on birthdays and holidays to share news about some person they'd both known who had hit the number, got remarried, had a baby, gone to jail, or died. I suppose I stayed connected because they had history. History, if you don't know, as a hard thing to shake because it's a bonding as good. 00;27;16;20 - 00;27;18;29 Speaker 2 It was that there I, I do have some questions. Okay. 00;27;19;01 - 00;27;20;02 Speaker 3 Listen. 00;27;20;04 - 00;27;49;09 Speaker 2 You got me. Yeah. I'm here reading. So earlier in one of your questions or one of your responses. And my question is you talked about that notion of rhyming histories. So what informed your decision to include these rhyming histories, particularly black American and diasporic histories, related to racial terror and violence? Because this is the with some historical knowledge. 00;27;49;12 - 00;28;23;27 Speaker 1 Because I kept running with each generation, I kept running into the same thing, stories different names. Right. Circumstances a little bit different. But that sounds like this is just a cycle. Like we're in a loop. And what I did my mother's birthday is March 16th. So what I did was I, I came across, I don't know, in my research on March 16th, whatever the year was a white man killing a black woman. 00;28;23;27 - 00;28;53;26 Speaker 1 And I was like, cause I read the article and I said, what if I just do a search on I think it was in genealogy Bank and I put White man kills Black Woman enter out March 16th. Every eight years on March 16th and then different part of the country, a white man killed a black woman. And then I was like, this is fascinating. 00;28;53;29 - 00;29;19;02 Speaker 1 I don't know where I mean this. I want to go someplace with that in another book. But yeah, so that's the theme. Like, we've been here before. It's it's happening. It's going to continue to happen. And I don't know I don't know if it ends while we are here or if it ends when we die and move on. 00;29;19;04 - 00;29;24;25 Speaker 1 I don't know, but yeah, I'm, I'm just fascinated with, with cycles and patterns. 00;29;24;28 - 00;29;47;02 Speaker 2 And there's, there are people who study cycles. There's this special language that they use. I wish I could call it to mind right now. But also in those shared histories, in those rhyming histories, you reveal your rage about the things that have happened to you, about the things that are happening around you and the rage of others. 00;29;47;02 - 00;29;52;22 Speaker 2 So how did that anger, how did that rage inform the stories that you chose to tell in this memoir? 00;29;52;29 - 00;30;24;17 Speaker 1 So I think that anger and rage is good, right? Is necessary. It's necessary for me, for my art. Like I have to be emotional about something, to write well and never happy. Never happy, right? Never happy. I have to be angry or I have to be really, really blue to write. Well, and I think about what Maya Angelou said about anger. 00;30;24;19 - 00;30;53;17 Speaker 1 Like you, it's okay to have an and if you don't feel it, you're either a stone or you're sick. But it's the bitterness that she cautions you about. You need to avoid that because that's cancerous. That's gonna eat you up. So I so I think the anger is it doesn't stay right. You need to have it. It needs to wash through you. 00;30;53;20 - 00;31;05;28 Speaker 1 But if it did stay, that's what it that's when it turns into bitterness. So to get it out, I write I write it down. And then I'm like, oh, I feel I feel better, I feel better now. 00;31;06;00 - 00;31;30;27 Speaker 2 I love that, but also thinking about you kind of feeling better and purging. You write about writing and reading as a means of escape for you. And with this memoir, you return to a lot of those memories, some of those very memories you're trying to escape from. So what does it feel like to return to those moments and recount those moments that you tried to escape in your girlhood? 00;31;31;01 - 00;31;59;24 Speaker 1 They were painful. A lot of them were painful. You know, there's there is some joy in the book, but, it was it was painful to have to go down that road. And I've always been writing about my people just under the guise of fiction. So this time tackling it like the whole truth and nothing but the truth was, was a bit challenging at times. 00;31;59;26 - 00;32;27;23 Speaker 1 I didn't want to think about what people would think about. Right? Because if I'm thinking about, well, what is the reader going to think about me or think about my family, then I'm, you know, I'm not going to write right. I'm going to censor myself. So I always tell people that I write for myself, this is the one thing that's mine, right? 00;32;27;23 - 00;32;35;01 Speaker 1 So I just put it all out there. If you enjoy it, that's a plus, right? 00;32;35;01 - 00;32;37;04 Speaker 3 Right. 00;32;37;06 - 00;33;07;18 Speaker 2 And I think that for me, reading this and also having Toni Morrison as a part of my, not necessarily my literary genealogy, but the genealogy in the ways that I understand anger and rage. I'm so very appreciative of you creating a space to really lay out the things that make black women angry, that justify our anger across history, across space and time. 00;33;07;20 - 00;33;24;23 Speaker 2 That expression important that you were thinking about what you want the readers to get, what you want us to learn. And so I think that that kind of aligns with one of the final questions that I have for you. And you kind of tap into that. And you gave a little bit of a response to that bill. 00;33;24;26 - 00;33;33;24 Speaker 2 What does he say? What do what is it that you really do hope for us to gain from reading Firstborn Girls? 00;33;33;26 - 00;34;15;05 Speaker 1 Even though so this is this is what one of my mentors taught me. Through specificity, we discover universal reality. So even though, this black woman writing about my black ass experience, I think that the stories resonate across gender and across color. Lot. Right? And so I hope that people understand that we are more connected than we are not. 00;34;15;06 - 00;34;30;04 Speaker 1 After reading this book. And I chose you for my conversation partner because we understand rage. Don't do that. We understand rage. Thank you very much. 00;34;30;06 - 00;34;31;24 Speaker 2 Thank you. 00;34;31;26 - 00;34;38;07 Speaker 1 So I guess we're opening it up to questions. The one. 00;34;38;07 - 00;34;40;22 Speaker 3 That yes. 00;34;40;25 - 00;35;01;23 Speaker 2 Denise Carr, I really appreciate the creation. Be that your approach, creating new language enters in our work. It's so beautiful that Ruby how connect I would love to you. And one thing about like the process and sounds like we channel when you're writing. So can you maybe describe what that feels like? I grew up inside it. 00;35;01;25 - 00;35;41;13 Speaker 1 It's it's about me just, listening. And it's it may not always be an audible right. It's like a feeling. Intuition. Right. When I don't listen, I end up in terrible situations. So if I. And I'll have conversations, right, I'll take a walk and I'll be like, I'm trying to work this out. I don't know what's happening at some point is going to show up, walking in showers. 00;35;41;13 - 00;35;51;13 Speaker 1 That's where all happens. Yeah, but it is. That's how I feel. Is channeling. Yeah. 00;35;51;15 - 00;36;20;00 Speaker 2 Yeah, I understand. So, I don't feel the exact same. There's this thing that says that you will experience your mother as a child, and then you will experience her as another woman. And when writing this book, did it help you relieve any anger that you may have had towards the mother in that regards? Because, you know, I have experience with that. 00;36;20;00 - 00;36;24;18 Speaker 2 And so as I get older, I see I get it now. Yeah. So do. 00;36;24;18 - 00;36;46;21 Speaker 1 You. I didn't I didn't have I had done all that work. Yes. Right way, way back. I've, I forgave my mother a long, long time ago. And I understand like she did the best that she could. And what does she know. She, she had me when she was 22. I had my daughter when I was 22. We were still kids. 00;36;46;27 - 00;37;08;09 Speaker 1 The brain wasn't even fully baked. Right. So, And what good does it do? I saw a quote that said you would save yourself a lot of heartbreak if you just look at your parents as her children. And that's what I do. So. And now I'm raising her. 00;37;08;12 - 00;37;11;10 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00;37;11;13 - 00;37;13;01 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00;37;13;04 - 00;37;16;06 Speaker 1 Any more questions. 00;37;16;08 - 00;37;16;15 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00;37;16;15 - 00;37;32;15 Speaker 2 I'm curious. I'm read it. Yeah, but just even hearing that story you said you didn't show it to anyone. But did you pick up the phone and say, like, remember that story we heard about that? Like, with was with multiple relatives. You would be like, remember, that's like, did you check files that? 00;37;32;17 - 00;38;01;11 Speaker 1 So there were three cousins. One, my cousin James, I wanted to make sure I got the story about the, shootout correct. And my cousin Tracy and Linda, there was just some stuff about locations that I wanted to make sure I got right, but I didn't go into detail with them because I wasn't writing about their mothers. 00;38;01;13 - 00;38;18;04 Speaker 1 Had I been writing about them, I'm like, look, am I right about to see? Am I right about back? And I'm gonna say these things, but, so no, but now the next one different story. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. 00;38;18;06 - 00;38;48;00 Speaker 4 So I love the way that you sort of bounce between the personal and the historical context of the personal and, because some memoirs don't deal with historical fantasies. Really work. Sorry. Because it forms us while we're 1 or 2 or not. I wondered, if you when you were sort of juxtaposing those two things, the figuring out the dialog between those two things. 00;38;48;00 - 00;38;54;07 Speaker 4 Did you learn some stuff about your family through that? Yeah. That surprised you or or the Illuminati? 00;38;54;07 - 00;39;12;11 Speaker 1 The movie I did, and this was so weird because it's been on ancestry on different family pages. It's been there for years. How come I didn't see it? I'm on ancestry all the time, but this is the other magical thing like it. Things come to me when they're supposed to come to me. So my I talk about briefly. 00;39;12;11 - 00;39;50;10 Speaker 1 My four time great grandmother, Lou VC, born into slavery. We actually have her name on a ship manifest going from, I don't know, I think it was South Carolina. Savannah. In any case, she died at 117 years old. And the the man that I'm sure she raised that I'm sure she was Mammy, too. Right. He put a whole obit in the Macon Telegraph, and that was such a gift. 00;39;50;10 - 00;39;56;07 Speaker 1 Like, who does that? Right. So that that was my big discovery. 00;39;56;09 - 00;39;57;13 Speaker 4 You found the oldest? 00;39;57;16 - 00;40;07;05 Speaker 1 Yep. Yeah, it was one. It was on my family pages on ancestry. I had never seen it. It was like no one told me about this. So yeah, that was a gift. 00;40;12;26 - 00;40;19;17 Speaker 1 You have a very quiet fire from, Mardi Gras. 00;40;19;19 - 00;40;31;16 Speaker 2 I don't have a question. I just wanted to compile. Maggie. So while you were waiting for the TOF, the star actually ran at the pro ball. And I love how lyrical it is. Is similar to your fiction, so. 00;40;31;16 - 00;41;10;17 Speaker 1 Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Oh, yes. The title says Firstborn Girls. Was it difficult to write as a first wonder? Oh, that's an interesting question. What was it difficult to write as a first born? Good. No, I've been doing it for 18 and 25 years. No, but I guess actually coming to terms with what a first born girl is, right? 00;41;10;20 - 00;41;33;18 Speaker 1 Like confronting that the the the responsibility, the parental focus and like all that that that was like oh like, oh that's that's me for my first so get. Yeah, yeah. We, we need therapy. We need that. 00;41;33;20 - 00;41;35;09 Speaker 3 Yes. 00;41;35;12 - 00;41;51;25 Speaker 2 That brought up a question in I think you said at one point in this was not the original the Heigl. Right. And so I'm curious if that's true if I'm remembering that correctly, what if there was a turning point or anything that kind of brought that to you and brought the title. 00;41;51;27 - 00;42;08;06 Speaker 1 Though back in 2017, when I was thinking about writing a memoir, I had a title called and and God Made Woman, and I put that out on social media just to see how, you know, if it would stick. And people like, oh, we love it, we love it. And then, but it was a different book then. 00;42;08;12 - 00;42;34;10 Speaker 1 So when I finally got serious and I called my agent, I had just I just got an agent. I hadn't had a literary agent for years, for like a decade. And and she, we came together over this novel in progress. And then I stopped writing pandemic it, and I stopped. And then, you know, George Floyd and all this started happening, and I sent her an email on the subject matter, said, now hear me out. 00;42;34;12 - 00;42;59;07 Speaker 1 Right. So I told her about this idea for the memoir, and, she was like, oh, I love this. But I had to write like a 25 page proposal. And that was like writing a dissertation. So we I sold it with firstborn girls. But as I was writing, I was like, maybe it should be called this, or maybe it should be called that. 00;42;59;07 - 00;43;11;23 Speaker 1 And I kept changing the title and and they were like, humor in me. Be like, yeah, that's Cooper. And, we'd be like, this one better. 00;43;11;25 - 00;43;13;18 Speaker 4 Across. I'm sure you asked me before. 00;43;13;18 - 00;43;15;05 Speaker 1 But I mean, especially. 00;43;15;05 - 00;43;17;11 Speaker 2 Given the idea of how lyrical. 00;43;17;11 - 00;43;43;10 Speaker 1 It is and what an amazing first line about her love is pink. I'm really curious about your the idea, the truth and telling truth of your family as a novelist who creates stories, of course, out of your experience. But what was was it harder to navigate? That fictionalizing or, you know, you're a creator of fiction, right? But also so what was your experience with that? 00;43;43;10 - 00;44;09;13 Speaker 1 I guess if it wasn't difficult, because, again, I've been writing about my family all along, giving them different names. Sometimes. Not always. Sometimes I use their names. Right. But the with this is like, okay, but this is you have to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Obviously, the conversations that I was not witness to and I'm, you know, I have a conversation with my cousin like, how did that go? 00;44;09;15 - 00;44;36;03 Speaker 1 And and there were areas where I had to make up things just filler. Right. But I wanted it. My favorite memoirs read like novels, and so I wanted that for this one. Well, the rule that Rome really does good success. Good. Thank you. 00;44;36;06 - 00;44;40;11 Speaker 1 Thank you all for coming over. 00;44;40;13 - 00;44;45;08 Speaker 1 Now. Thanks. Thank you so much. Yes. You have a question? Yes. Yes, yes. Okay. 00;44;45;11 - 00;44;47;22 Speaker 2 Let's just. 00;44;47;24 - 00;44;48;15 Speaker 1 All right, Jessica. 00;44;48;20 - 00;44;50;15 Speaker 2 To me, we all love your. 00;44;50;15 - 00;44;52;14 Speaker 1 Book. So I just want to know. 00;44;52;16 - 00;44;53;20 Speaker 2 What are you reading? 00;44;53;25 - 00;45;20;12 Speaker 1 Oh, okay. I just finished a book that I'm not going to remember right now. I'm not going to remember the title, but it was her. Her surname is Brown Lee. I think it's coming out in the next few months. And, it was such a powerful memoir. It takes place in Brooklyn, you know, she's born and raised in the projects, from a teenage, a teenage mother. 00;45;20;12 - 00;45;46;05 Speaker 1 She becomes a teenage mother. Then she gets with this man, and he nearly kills her, but she becomes a police officer. She goes through that. And now she's helping women like she. She's out in the streets helping women. So that was wonderful. I'm getting ready to start it just came out about a month ago. Casualties of Truth by Laura Frances Sharma. 00;45;46;05 - 00;45;59;07 Speaker 1 She's a friend of mine, so I've been with her on that journey. That book takes place in South Africa, in America, and that's all I could think about right now. 00;45;59;09 - 00;46;01;15 Speaker 3 It's just. 00;46;01;17 - 00;46;02;05 Speaker 1 That essay. 00;46;02;05 - 00;46;03;03 Speaker 2 Right? 00;46;03;05 - 00;46;32;25 Speaker 1 Oh, so I'm back to my, novel. I'm very excited about it. Like, once this was finished, the characters, like, we could come back now. So I have about, I have about 30,000 words. And I hope to, you know, have it fully finished by the end. This is just the first draft. Had it fully finished by the end of the year, and then I could go on to the next memoir. 00;46;32;27 - 00;46;39;11 Speaker 1 Thank you. Thank you. 00;46;39;11 - 00;47;06;27 Speaker 1 Thank you for spending time with us and for being a part of the Baldwin Co community. Every listen helps to keep the conversation alive. So thank you for listening. And if you believe in the work that we're doing, building literacy, nurturing curiosity and investing in our city, please, please, please consider supporting to the Bone and Co Foundation. You can go on to that Bco foundation at org. 00;47;06;27 - 00;47;26;17 Speaker 1 You can make a donation or you can just go to WW Baldwin or call books.com. You can follow us on our socials just at Baldwin and Company. So make sure you follow us. Check us out, subscribe. If you want to watch the video portion of this podcast and all of our podcasts, definitely check out our YouTube channel. 00;47;26;18 - 00;47;47;27 Speaker 1 It's just Baldwin and co on YouTube. Put it in the search and it'll come right up. So thank you so much. Please. 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