Is Striving For Black Excellence Killing Us? Dr. Uché Blackstock SOUNDS OFF on Working 2x as Hard!

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:08 Speaker 1 Occurred to me while reading your book about how much our parents shape us. I unconsciously like we may think that we're making kind of our own choices in our own decisions, but they kind of shape this world in which we inhabit and these things that we are just completely normal to us. Right. And so what becomes normal to us is kind of like what we do. 00:00:25:08 - 00:00:44:03 Speaker 2 And I was used to being all black environments then junior high school and high school and in college. Then I started like sometimes like doubting myself. Am I good enough? That's what you say. Black sock is drawing attention to the impact the race has on our health care system and our new legacy. A black physician reckons with racism in medicine. 00:00:44:06 - 00:00:58:15 Speaker 2 She explores systemic inequity in health care, from the beginnings of Western medicine to her own experiences as a medical student and a doctor. I think from for both of our parents was very important that we grew up in a house. And I would say this is a house of love. 00:00:58:16 - 00:01:04:16 Speaker 1 They were all living in the same place. We're all living in the same country. It behooves us, I think, to talk to each other 00:01:04:16 - 00:01:12:07 Speaker 2 Hi. And Doctor Uchi writes that I am the author of legacy A Black position, reckons with racism in medicine. 00:01:12:09 - 00:01:21:21 Speaker 1 Hey, I'm Jarvis to Barry. I'm opinion editor at msnbc.com, long time columnist for the Times-Picayune. Hey, how are you? 00:01:21:22 - 00:01:23:06 Speaker 2 I'm good. How are you? 00:01:23:07 - 00:01:28:03 Speaker 1 I'm good. Welcome to New Orleans. My first question is, what have you had to eat? 00:01:28:05 - 00:01:46:21 Speaker 2 Oh my goodness, what have I had to eat? I went to this restaurant yesterday called Gallic Tour. That was what got was. Yes. And, we had, I had, a really delicious chicken breast and, a sweet potato cheesecake. 00:01:46:23 - 00:01:57:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, that sounds good. I haven't had that particular dessert, but it sounds great. It sounds great. So, I was thinking we would start by talking about our mothers. 00:01:57:26 - 00:01:58:28 Speaker 2 Oh, yes. 00:01:59:02 - 00:02:29:20 Speaker 1 I read your book, and I know we're going to talk about other things outside, but I'm curious as to at what point did. Her dream become your dream? How did you manage? At what point did you figure out that this is not just my mother's dream? For me to be a doctor, but with my dream. I'm just curious about, how you were sure that this is what you wanted to do and not just, you know, being a copycat. 00:02:29:20 - 00:02:49:09 Speaker 2 I know I think there was that that expectation that both my twin sister and I would be physicians. Yeah, because I think for my mom and how she grew up, you know, she grew up in poverty. You know, and public assistance first raised in her family to go to college. Yeah. And then and then medical school. Like what? 00:02:49:14 - 00:03:08:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. I think for her, that was like, this is, that is really the pinnacle. But this is like the way that we succeed. Yeah. And this is the way that we serve our community. Yeah. Right. And so I saw that as a little girl. I was like, oh, I love that. Especially the fact that she went away for school and then came back and practiced in her community. 00:03:08:16 - 00:03:42:12 Speaker 2 Yeah. And so I think for a long time, like I didn't even question it. And probably it wasn't until I was in my residency and my training at emergency medicine, I chose that specialty, and I was working at a public hospital, the same one that she used to work at. Yeah. And that was when I was like, seeing all of the things that I had only, like, heard about, but like, seeing my patients come in with, you know, uncontrolled high blood pressure with, very, very poorly controlled diabetes and being like, wait, why is like, why is this happening? 00:03:42:12 - 00:04:04:06 Speaker 2 And what is my role in in improving this for my patients? Yeah. So it was really after medical school because at medical school was just very like cerebral, like we're learning from the books. But residency is what I actually started taking care of patients. I was like, oh, this is what, like, this is what my mother, you know, with always talked about this, but what was important to her? 00:04:04:08 - 00:04:28:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. I thought about my mother a lot when reading your story, in part because there is still this lingering doubt of, like, the kind of quality of care that she got. And it's one of those situations where you don't know if the quality or concern was poor. You know, maybe things just happen the way that they happen. 00:04:28:09 - 00:04:57:06 Speaker 1 Or maybe it was, you know, something else from my mother's, case. She had a, foreign memory. Correct. But you can see the timeline. She had a mammogram in May. She was told that, there was something abnormal or that she needed to have an ultrasound. And she had the ultrasound in June. She was given the all clear after the ultrasound. 00:04:57:08 - 00:05:00:10 Speaker 1 And I think at the end of July, I found a lot. 00:05:00:12 - 00:05:01:09 Speaker 2 She found the lump. 00:05:01:09 - 00:05:31:18 Speaker 1 She found on at the end of July. And, or maybe it began that July and, they she opted for a mastectomy. And during a pathology report, they said it had spread past the clavicle. Right. And so was it. Did they misread something? Did they not get something right? You know, so it's always those kinds of kind of lingering questions. 00:05:31:18 - 00:05:55:05 Speaker 1 But I also thought about her because I feel like similar to you walking in your mother's footsteps. And that's kind of like what I did, kind of unconsciously. So my mother was an English teacher and like this strict discriminatory and, you know, and so it's no it's no surprise, I think, to anybody that I'm editing and other people's writings and correcting their punctuation. 00:05:55:05 - 00:06:23:03 Speaker 1 And, and it was just occurred to me while reading your book about how much our parents shape us, I unconsciously like we may think that we're making kind of our own choices in our own decisions, but they kind of shape this world in which we inhabit and these things that we are just completely normal to us. Right. And so what becomes normal to us is kind of like what we do. 00:06:23:11 - 00:06:28:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. So you and your sister are playing with your mother's medical bag and. Yes, I mean, that's a skill. 00:06:28:19 - 00:06:52:09 Speaker 2 Like playing playing with all her medical instruments and going with her to meetings of the local black woman physician organization. You're and looking at this room full of black women physicians. Talk about our community and what projects and programs are going to do. Yeah. And me, my sister sitting in the back of the room, like, try to be quiet, listening in. 00:06:52:11 - 00:07:11:06 Speaker 2 You're not understanding everything, but knowing what they're saying is very important. Yeah. Right. And so I always say that was my reality. That was our reality. Yeah. And I didn't it wasn't until I got older, probably medical school, that I realized that wasn't the reality. 00:07:11:09 - 00:07:11:28 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:07:12:00 - 00:07:24:23 Speaker 2 That I was very, very fortunate to be able to have that exposure when I growing up as a child. Yeah. And the fact was, you know, that's so few miles, less than 6%. You know, all of our physicians are black, but. 00:07:24:23 - 00:07:45:05 Speaker 1 It has to be an amazing experience. And I'm I'm I want to ask about the other side because obviously if you go to college and you go to medical school as a black person, there are going to be people who presume that you don't belong or presume that you know this is going to be too hard for you or too difficult for you. 00:07:45:08 - 00:07:54:06 Speaker 1 So there must have been like, well, I've seen a gazillion black women doctors before, and now you're trying to accuse and some imposter or something. 00:07:54:07 - 00:08:27:03 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's so interesting because I feel like like despite seeing all of that and all of that being the norm for me because there's like anti-black messaging everywhere. I still have those, like, self doubts. Yeah. You know, I still I still was I always look at my cousin's mental. Right. Even though I had seen at Wendy's I had seen but we've seen women and men in my view doing, doing what I wanted to do. 00:08:27:06 - 00:08:43:26 Speaker 2 But my own mother and that and both my parents just being incredibly supportive and just saying, you can do anything. Yeah. But despite all of that, like being in these environments, I think especially, you know, I started high school and I went to, a specialized high school in New York City called Syverson. So you have to attest to get in. 00:08:43:26 - 00:08:45:09 Speaker 1 We've heard of it. 00:08:45:11 - 00:09:05:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. Hey, I know what let's do. So, you know, at that time, it was in that that was that early 90s, less than 5% of all the students there were black. So I think once I got into that environment, like this is where we were in the minority, I was in all black environments. And then then junior high school and high school and in college. 00:09:05:13 - 00:09:24:00 Speaker 2 Then I started like sometimes like doubting myself, being white in my am I good enough for this? And also feeling a little guilty for feeling that way because I know my parents and my parents. You know, I was thinking that there would be so furious with me. Yeah, like of course, of course. You deserve to be here. 00:09:24:00 - 00:09:56:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. You put that's the that's the kind of what what word am I looking for? I think it defines being a black parent in this country like you do, as much as you can to prepare your children to tell them that they're great, to tell them that they're capable and know soon as they step out the door. There are many, many more people either explicitly telling them or implicitly telling them that they can't and that they won't, and that this is audacious. 00:09:56:20 - 00:10:11:26 Speaker 1 You know what I mean? So it's like it's like your parents could do everything they can possibly do, and yet you still have to go out into this white world and have them tell you, you know, you're not supposed to be or that you're not that good enough. 00:10:11:29 - 00:10:33:24 Speaker 2 And just because, like, you know, I have two boys, they're eight and ten years old and like, you know, a ten year old is entering uselessly soon in the fall. And I was thinking about, like, you know, finding schools, what kind of environment. So I went in and, and a lot of my I would see a lot of my peers like parent peers. 00:10:33:25 - 00:11:00:21 Speaker 2 They're very into the academics, like making sure it's academically rigorous. And I like I've been there, done that. I want this child to be in an environment where he is being loved, supported, nurtured, like, yeah, academics will cotton. Yeah, because I know, I know, just my own experience. You can yes, you can get A's and everything. Right. But it's he's not somewhere where like they are invested in his whole being. 00:11:00:26 - 00:11:06:03 Speaker 2 And I worry about that as a, as a parent like that. That is so, so important. 00:11:06:03 - 00:11:29:19 Speaker 1 Is one of the conversations that my wife and I like. There are certain schools in New Orleans that it seems like people of a certain status, unless they can elbow each other to try to get their kids into and I was like, yeah, you know, and I think there are people like, well, like, why don't you why? It is just it didn't feel right. 00:11:29:19 - 00:12:03:25 Speaker 1 And I'm talking I mean, the two experience is for me. First, I grew up in small town Mississippi, and although I'm the generation supposedly after the civil rights movement, you know, for most of my school career, it's 98, 99% black. So like in Mississippi, when immigration came, white people just withdrew and formed their own private schools. So it's not to send their kids, to school with black kids. 00:12:03:25 - 00:12:28:15 Speaker 1 So junior year in high school, I went to a school called the Mississippi School for Mathematics and Science. And so you have to apply to get in, you know, they're they're very few of us, as you can probably gather. And and that was this kind of, like, highly competitive, you know, everyone wanting to go to, you know. 00:12:28:22 - 00:12:29:05 Speaker 2 Like say with. 00:12:29:05 - 00:13:00:18 Speaker 1 It. Yeah. Yeah. And but I don't think you can I don't put that education over the education like that in an all black empire. It's because they did see me as the complete person who thought I was smart, or who thought I could achieve and didn't treat me as like some exception to a rule that says that, you know, black boys or black boys don't or, you know, that kind of thing. 00:13:00:18 - 00:13:37:12 Speaker 1 And so I didn't want my daughter to have or how a daughter, I should say, to have to go into like kindergarten in first grade fighting this idea of, you know, am I to da who is my hair, right. You know, and, you know, that kind of thing, like, I didn't, I just didn't want it, like, it's just, you know, and I, I'm not kind of dis people who decided to do that, but it just felt like there were more important things there. 00:13:37:14 - 00:14:07:17 Speaker 1 You know what grade this particular school gets from the state, you know, and I don't know that anybody else but us maybe there I don't know if Latino people have this idea or this face, this particular thing or not, being worried about their mind in this, like, all white environments. 00:14:07:19 - 00:14:30:25 Speaker 2 I mean, I think of it as like, you know, you know, I know, I know, we've had experiences where it really only right, whether it's like in school or our careers. Yeah. And I always say that it's like it's like psychological violence to put us in those environments where through the only. Yeah. And I think sometimes people think that those are opportunities for us. 00:14:30:25 - 00:14:50:01 Speaker 2 Like here, the advantage of all these financial resources. But at the same time, it's like, well, what do you have to do to get through that? Right? Like, what do you what do you have to go through? Psychologically, emotionally that we know the psychological and emotional has an impact on the physical, right. Like, so what when you have to go the to get there. 00:14:50:01 - 00:15:08:27 Speaker 2 And I always think about, you know, I write about this, you know, how there's so many times like walked into patients rooms, right. And they've been like, oh, are you transport like, oh you can definitely have scan and like wait a minute. Like, did you see the my ads? You know, doctor, if I introduce myself to the doctor each day, blastoff. 00:15:08:28 - 00:15:28:25 Speaker 2 You know, but because of how their minds work and how, you know, just in, in other cultural messaging, they get, it's like they can't put like, one and one together to get to you that. Oh, there's this young black woman at the time, it's only in front of me, actually, my doctor. Yeah. And she's not transport, she's not here to take out the garbage. 00:15:28:25 - 00:15:44:12 Speaker 2 And I want to say like that's all respect to. Yeah. All of your family. Yes. That you know that does that. Right. But it's like it's the others having this breadth of imagination to really to see us in all these different roles. 00:15:44:14 - 00:15:54:11 Speaker 1 I mean, it's not the same, but when one of my earlier roles at the Times-Picayune was covering courts and I was always or often presumed to be the defendant. 00:15:54:13 - 00:15:56:26 Speaker 2 But my client know that they are that. 00:15:56:29 - 00:16:07:12 Speaker 1 And as a reporter, like like it was always just these assumptions about, you know, a young black man in court. Right. And is it is typically, you know, like. 00:16:07:18 - 00:16:07:29 Speaker 2 Sitting. 00:16:07:29 - 00:16:09:06 Speaker 1 By the defense is to wait. 00:16:09:08 - 00:16:11:09 Speaker 2 So were you like a no, no. You're like. 00:16:11:11 - 00:16:21:28 Speaker 1 I'm like, no, I'm the reporter. You know, I'm here to cover this particular story, you know? But there are there are just these kind of kneejerk assumptions about where black people are supposed to be. 00:16:21:29 - 00:16:39:29 Speaker 2 Well, I think about, we'd be talking about being a parent. Something happened, when my older son was it was in fourth grade, and a fourth grade movie was four years old, rather. And he had told his teacher, Dr.. That I was a doctor, a cop, because he had, a day. Where is it? Bring your parent to school and you're your parent. 00:16:39:29 - 00:16:57:18 Speaker 2 Can you talk a little bit about what they do? And so I had responded to the teachers email like, oh, I'll come in and I want to show the children how to use a stethoscope and you know how it works. And I went into the classroom. The teacher said to me, white woman said to me, oh, he said that you were a doctor. 00:16:57:18 - 00:17:02:11 Speaker 2 But I didn't believe him, and I literally. 00:17:02:18 - 00:17:03:21 Speaker 1 Did. You asked why? 00:17:03:23 - 00:17:20:12 Speaker 2 No, no, no, I was so I was so shocked in that moment. And I was like, you know what? But I'm going to go there because I need to, like, that's at the end of the year. I need to be like this certain headspace to like, do this today in this classroom. But that teacher, I asked them, like, also you told me, you know, so-and-so that was a doctor. 00:17:20:12 - 00:17:33:18 Speaker 2 And what did she say? Oh, she was like, well. And she's like, oh, what are you talking about? And you're into that. And that made me actually, I was angry for my child. Yeah, this is not leading. Yeah, yeah. And dismissing him. 00:17:33:18 - 00:17:34:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:17:34:17 - 00:17:43:04 Speaker 2 He doesn't even remember that now. And thank God. Yeah. He doesn't remember that. But literally I pray that there there for that. 00:17:43:06 - 00:18:00:03 Speaker 1 I mean there's that. But that's my point about this this idea. Like no matter what your parents instilled in you, no matter all of these things are this world is out there to tell you that you don't. You're not supposed to do that like you're not. You know, that's not what you are. 00:18:00:06 - 00:18:00:18 Speaker 2 Right? 00:18:00:18 - 00:18:03:07 Speaker 1 You are supposed to do, you know. 00:18:03:07 - 00:18:28:06 Speaker 2 Yes. And so that's why, like, I think I know if I read the book this, but I feel like being a black parent or having making the decision to have to bring black life into the world, into in this country, tequila is, yeah, is an act of resistance. Like it really is almost revolutionary in some ways because you're you're making this decision to bring your children into a world that, you know, like, is never going to love them the way that you love them. 00:18:28:06 - 00:18:42:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's never going to protect them that way. Right. And then at some point you're not going to be here. Right. So and then they would have to go through probably some very difficult experiences. Right. But then you also know that it's your job to bring them joy and love. Yeah. As well. 00:18:42:22 - 00:19:08:08 Speaker 1 Did you feel pressure? I'm asking this because I told you a little bit about growing up where I did so, and again, the concepts for me, you know, it is essentially a black public school system, a white private school system in my hometown. And there is a county spelling bee as part of the national spelling bee there. Anyway, as I told you, my mother's an English teacher, right? 00:19:08:08 - 00:19:35:26 Speaker 1 And so I am. Fifth grade was when you become eligible. I win the spelling bee for the first time. Anybody in my school has done it right. And so this, like, this big, big thing at the school is there and cetera. But then in the subsequent year, it is I am this, I am this young girl from like the white private school or like the final two contestants on the States. 00:19:35:29 - 00:19:43:19 Speaker 1 And I am feeling all the pressure in the world. Right. So we for the black people, right? Had to win, you know, and. 00:19:43:19 - 00:19:44:02 Speaker 2 I feel. 00:19:44:02 - 00:20:08:18 Speaker 1 Like I do this. There is and I did it. But, you know, here's the thing is, I feel like. Yes, my parents built me up. Yes. My parents encouraged me. Yes, it did all these wonderful things. But I also still, I think, developed this very unhealthy sense of I have to prove to them that I am as good as. 00:20:08:20 - 00:20:29:01 Speaker 1 And so there is a you don't want your child to be like I'm inferior to white people, but at the same time, I don't want them to think that they have to compete against them explicitly in order to prove that they are not inferior. And so it's it's really tricky kind of balance, I know. 00:20:29:01 - 00:20:49:22 Speaker 2 And like, I probably I mean, I feel like in my adult life I have really come to grips with that. In terms of, I think for me, for obviously for a long time, you know, going to Harvard undergrad and then Harvard Medical School, I feel like I was in these environments where, like, I had to like, you know, give my 400, 500%. 00:20:49:27 - 00:21:09:23 Speaker 2 Yeah. But then what I learned was that, like, even like, 50% is like everyone else is 100% because we're like in in overdrive. And I literally and really, it's kind of been over the last five years, since my platform was grown. Is that like I help communicate or as a health equity advocate, and I've had to give a lot of talks. 00:21:09:25 - 00:21:17:21 Speaker 2 I said to myself, oh my goodness, you cannot you cannot go through the stress of having to like overperform every time. 00:21:17:23 - 00:21:22:22 Speaker 1 And that's what we keep telling you. You have to work twice as hard. You can't work twice as hard or like you can't. 00:21:22:22 - 00:21:44:13 Speaker 2 Right. And and that's the other thing. Like, you know, I it's a little bit about in the book, it's like this idea of weathering. Yeah. Right. That our leader on this, the public health researcher, has, has done a lot of research on for, for decades. But this idea that like dealing with that's dealing with that stress right, of having to overperform. 00:21:44:15 - 00:22:09:25 Speaker 2 But cause is a chronic wear and tear on our body. The challenges you might have happiness syndrome. Yeah. Surgery syndrome. Yeah. That prematurely ages us. Yeah. That makes us susceptible to product diseases like that. It actually shortens. It shortens our lives. And so that's why it's so funny. People basically wax on crack and like, yes, we we look amazing as we get older, but what, what what is happening inside of our bodies even down to like the DNA level. 00:22:09:25 - 00:22:35:03 Speaker 2 I don't know if you heard of like, telomeres. The telomeres are the ends of DNA. And as we get older, as anyone hearing gets older, those ends of the DNA molecules, they get shorter and shorter. But when you when there's research now that when you look at the the telomeres, the entity maze of black people and Hispanic people of a certain age in the 40s and compare them against white people are telomeres are shorter. 00:22:35:03 - 00:22:54:08 Speaker 2 Our telomeres look like we are older than we actually are. And so that's why it like I think we have to reclaim this. Like, you know, this idea of like working two, three times harder, you know, do your best, like where you put your best foot forward, like, I mean, like I tell my children that, but not all the time either. 00:22:54:09 - 00:23:10:11 Speaker 2 I was like, I still yeah, enjoy school. Right. And you get the most out of it and feel incredibly motivated. But that I think we've only begun to see like the tip of the iceberg of what that John Henry ism. What, what that does. That's us. 00:23:10:11 - 00:23:24:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. I'll tell you this, I won't say you completely broke me off this habit because I don't know if it can be completely broken off. So I went to Washington University in Saint Louis and the joke is it's like everybody's premed in Washington. 00:23:24:28 - 00:23:26:29 Speaker 2 Yes, I know a lot of. 00:23:26:29 - 00:23:44:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. And so yeah, so was I it usually. Oh yeah. And so freshman year at the university year a bunch of black guys decide we were all going to have our, our suite. We apply for a suite to have sophomore year a suite like a dorm a dorm. 00:23:44:19 - 00:23:45:17 Speaker 2 Okay, okay. I'm here. 00:23:45:17 - 00:23:45:28 Speaker 1 Okay. 00:23:46:00 - 00:23:47:29 Speaker 2 So he gets it to a room together. 00:23:47:29 - 00:24:10:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. So so six of us apply. You have to apply for this week. And we were granted. So over the summer, one of us withdraws. Right. So now we are at risk of losing the suite. But the universities near us like six. This white guy was a transfer student. Yeah. Trust me. So there's like five black guys who know each other and have known each other since freshman year. 00:24:10:05 - 00:24:39:15 Speaker 1 And this white guy Thomas, who's transferring there. So Thomas is pre-med, too. So it was you, I think all of the organic chemistry exams were. I feel like it was either Monday night or Tuesday. Like I cannot remember the exact date. Regardless, the weekend before, everybody who has organic organic chemistry or for organic chemistry. Thomas, the white guy, we spent all day Sunday watching football. 00:24:39:17 - 00:24:51:17 Speaker 1 The pre game, the game, the post game, the aftermath. And my thought was wow, Thomas must be brilliant right? That's just. 00:24:51:19 - 00:24:52:06 Speaker 2 Crazy. 00:24:52:08 - 00:25:20:17 Speaker 1 So so second semester we're looking around Thomas isn't there. But I have to tell you for my what happened. The toilet. Us. What happened to Thomas? Oh, he said he missed his friends back. Oh, what is it? No. Organic chemist got. No, that's that's that's what happened to Thomas. But my reflex was when I see somebody be a white person being completely lazy, and I'm concerned was. 00:25:20:20 - 00:25:26:03 Speaker 1 He must be brilliant. Not he's lazy. He's not. He's goofy. You know I'm not. He's. 00:25:26:03 - 00:25:27:17 Speaker 2 Oh, he already knows it. He really knows. 00:25:27:19 - 00:25:35:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. And it's just like, why is it, why do I make that assumption? Because if I saw anybody else do it, yes, I would say I. 00:25:35:09 - 00:25:36:02 Speaker 2 You know. Yeah. 00:25:36:05 - 00:25:54:11 Speaker 1 He's risking it, right. He's gonna he's gonna get kicked out. But that kind of like reflex of, of, like assuming the best of them and the worst of us, something is no matter how much our parents work with us on that. I know, you know, it's really difficult to scrub out of our brains. 00:25:54:14 - 00:26:18:22 Speaker 2 Yes, it it really is. It really is. And I was like, you just have to like, we have to be gentle with ourselves. Yeah, we really, really do. Like I said, for a long time, I gave two, 300%. You like. You know what? I just going to get, like, when I would go on air for my MSNBC hits, like, those hits are like three minutes long. 00:26:18:25 - 00:26:20:00 Speaker 1 Now I want to prepare. 00:26:20:06 - 00:26:21:20 Speaker 2 Like, two hours. 00:26:21:23 - 00:26:22:26 Speaker 1 Wow. 00:26:22:28 - 00:26:45:25 Speaker 2 Because. But also felt like, okay, you know, you're in the middle of a crisis. I am giving out really important information. I want to make sure that this is easily digestible. And especially I know a lot of black folks like white folks. Like I've said, that network and they're getting a lot of health information from there. So I was like, I just need to make sure that I'm giving out really accurate information. 00:26:45:25 - 00:27:09:15 Speaker 2 And I got people kind of like, oh, she's on there for three minutes. I'm like, I will be there for three minutes. And I like studied for two hours to make sure that whatever I had to say was 100% right. And then, you know, like every now and then someone would like, comment on my Twitter like, oh, no, it should have been that that number was slightly off, you know, like something, you know, just so you sort of have to like. 00:27:09:17 - 00:27:10:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:27:10:10 - 00:27:11:06 Speaker 2 Stay focused. 00:27:11:10 - 00:27:36:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. But that is, that is I think the battle that a lot of black parents of our generation and yeah, I'm particular because I think you're different. I think different black generations have their own particular battle. And I think ours is trying to. Do more nuance than like I don't necessarily want to send my daughter off to battle. 00:27:36:20 - 00:27:50:18 Speaker 1 Right. White people or yes, the way that my family's sent me out to prove, hey, see? Right. Y'all could have been in our school. Our schools are bad. You know, we're not dumb. You know, I felt like I had to represent that in a way. And I don't want that for my child. Yeah. 00:27:50:18 - 00:28:19:05 Speaker 2 It's so interesting that my father worked for the Board of Education, of New York City. And we didn't go to public school until high school. And so I know what's up, but and then looking back, I felt like, okay. What what is that? Yes. It's telling, but, you know, I will. I really wish she could have said this is why I felt like I could have done that for you. 00:28:19:05 - 00:28:36:12 Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, that I didn't know until I got older that my neighborhood was a formerly redlined neighborhood. Right. And so that's why, you know, the quality of the school, the school education he was concerned about were, you know, we didn't have a grocery store. We always had to drive over. And you ready for a grocery store? 00:28:36:12 - 00:28:50:02 Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, I seen several people get shot on my block, you know, like that was just like. But I just but I didn't. I don't know if you didn't feel like he could have that conversation when. That's when we were kids, that I feel like that's all I want to do with, like, my kids go to public school. 00:28:50:02 - 00:29:05:20 Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, I don't know, but for middle school, for the older one. But we'll see. Yeah. But again, just thinking about, like, I think my dad just wanted to make sure that we got his immigrant from Jamaica. I came to see me a 17. Right? Edwards. Yeah. My mother. 00:29:05:28 - 00:29:10:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. And therefore, have you have a different concept about education coming from Tunica? 00:29:10:16 - 00:29:15:17 Speaker 2 Exactly. Yeah. My father feels like education is the way out. 00:29:15:19 - 00:29:17:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. And it's something that you buy. 00:29:17:11 - 00:29:34:27 Speaker 2 Yes, yes. And then also home ownership. That's also the only, only way that you generate like wealth analysis. And so like he's very much like fixed into those ideas. And even as 82 year old man. Yeah. Like that is still. 00:29:34:28 - 00:29:35:21 Speaker 1 Those things say. 00:29:35:28 - 00:29:36:15 Speaker 2 Yes. 00:29:36:22 - 00:29:37:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:29:37:15 - 00:29:59:14 Speaker 2 You know whereas I'm thinking that all of these like other ideas, like, you know, what should they be? The school where, you know, my, our older child can, you know, get get the education but also, yeah, the supportive environment. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I don't need him to go to Harvard. Actually, I'd rather him go to Morehouse or some other HBCU. 00:29:59:16 - 00:30:25:01 Speaker 1 I thought one of the things that jumped out at me when you just mentioned it again, your mother's a doctor, your father's, working for the Board of Education, and yet you are living in the neighborhood. This viral. And is it? It suggests that we even as a black middle class, it's there's a difference between a black middle class, a white middle class and their distance from poverty. 00:30:25:01 - 00:30:46:26 Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah. You know, when my parents bought our house in Brooklyn, the only me my parents were, you know, they're both professionals. They won't be able to qualify for a mortgage. Was because my father was a veteran, but because it's a formerly Red line neighborhood, there weren't a lot of mortgages being offered there. Yeah. And and that's what they could afford. 00:30:46:28 - 00:31:18:08 Speaker 2 Yeah. Right. And so, you know, my neighborhood I love my I love my neighborhood. Great. I love my neighbors look out for each other. But for me it was normal. Like, this is normal. Yeah. That, you know, in the 90s, for any of these, I would we may have crack vials in our front yard. Yeah. Right. But at the same time, like within my home, it was just a lot of love and safety and I felt I felt, comfortable and, yeah, nurtured. 00:31:18:10 - 00:31:34:26 Speaker 2 But it's like, out there, you know, it is a different world. But I also feel like, yes, that is true, that we, you know, you have these so-called successful, correct professions, but we're still living with, you know, with our folks, we're still living with our family. I live in the same neighborhood that my mom grew up in. Yeah. 00:31:34:29 - 00:31:52:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. I remember Chris Rock's joke about living in the neighborhood. I think it was him, Jay-Z, Mary J. Blige. And then it was a white dentist. You remember? Do you remember that song? He said, no. He said, I'm not seeing anybody really it to you. It was just a regular yanked your teeth out. Dennis. Yeah, yeah. He's never done this. 00:31:53:06 - 00:31:54:29 Speaker 1 All these black celebrities. 00:31:55:02 - 00:31:55:18 Speaker 2 Right? Yeah. 00:31:55:18 - 00:32:00:18 Speaker 1 So yes, he's in this. I think the next time Jay-Z and Blige's. 00:32:00:21 - 00:32:24:14 Speaker 2 I know I. Well that's I also think about, you know, maternal mortality, for example, I always say, you know, you know, black, black women, that's that like black women with a college education or higher are still, you know, my cousin's more likely to die than a white woman with an eighth grade education, a pregnancy related complications. And that's right, and that's right. 00:32:24:17 - 00:32:33:12 Speaker 2 And that's because that, you know, the you know, having the professional education does not protect us the same way that it does for white folks. 00:32:33:15 - 00:32:57:08 Speaker 1 But yet, to me, that is the real difference between, like we said, black middle class and white middle class. Is this is a short drop to the bottom. It's not, you know, you're not that high up. Yeah. Yeah. Well this has been a great pre conversation a great, conversation to have with you. And really looking forward to talking to your more. 00:32:57:12 - 00:32:58:10 Speaker 2 Thank you. Thank you. 00:32:58:10 - 00:33:25:25 Speaker 1 Thank you for spending time with us and for being a part of the Baldwin Co community. Every listen helps to keep the conversation alive. So thank you for listening. And if you believe in the work that we're doing, building literacy, nurturing curiosity and investing in our city, please, please, please consider supporting to the Bone and Co Foundation. You can go on to that Bco foundation at org. 00:33:25:25 - 00:33:45:15 Speaker 1 You can make a donation or you can just go to WW Baldwin or call books.com. You can follow us on our socials just at Baldwin and Company. So make sure you follow us. Check us out, subscribe. 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