How Racist Ideas Spread! - Ibram X. Kendi & Eddie Glaude Jr.

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;07;23 Speaker 1 So we can change people by way of expressing our commitments through policy decisions, as opposed to waiting for people to change. 00;00;07;29 - 00;00;30;00 Speaker 2 My children going to school with black children. They're not going to get eaten by those black children. If anything, they're going to befriend and learn from those black children. It becomes then harder to fear monger. Let's say segregated schools. I grew up in the 80s, in the 90s at a time in which young black males were classified, like me, who were classified as super predators. 00;00;30;06 - 00;00;51;01 Speaker 2 Our communities were imagined to be severely dangerous. These were racist ideas circulating not only among white people, but even among black people. And young people like me were internalizing these ideas. Yeah, I believed it until I realized that there was nothing. The only thing wrong with black people was that we thought something was wrong with black people, and that the fundamental racial problem was racist policy. 00;00;51;03 - 00;01;22;26 Speaker 1 Habit formation is always bound up with character formation because habits, as Aristotle would say, a critical to the kinds of persons we take ourselves to be. The important question what kind of human being do you take yourself to be? And it seems to me, if we lose sight of that question and become technocratic in terms of how we think about policy and the like, we might find ourselves, we adopt a trampling upon the rights of everyday ordinary folk, not only American citizens, but those who are here legally, those who are just simply trying to make a better life for themselves and their children. 00;01;22;26 - 00;01;43;18 Speaker 1 These folk are going after hardened criminals. They're not in ice in Minneapolis or Minnesota because of fraud. I've said over and over again that Ice has been charged. To do what? To make America white again. That's all I need to do is to admit to you that I am, in fact, that I. That the country is, in fact, racists and that admission should call for absolution. 00;01;43;18 - 00;01;48;05 Speaker 1 I met a law professor of African studies at Princeton University. 00;01;48;07 - 00;01;53;03 Speaker 2 I'm Ephraim Kendi, I am professor of history at Howard University. 00;01;53;06 - 00;02;01;28 Speaker 1 I like that question of policy or the moral imagination. What do you make of that? Is that a false opposition? I think so. 00;02;02;00 - 00;02;14;12 Speaker 2 I think it's typically very difficult to radically change policies without a moral imagination. You know, nobody. Who do you think. 00;02;14;14 - 00;02;42;10 Speaker 1 You know in my book Democracy in Black. I actually linked policy to habit formation that we can change sort of the sorts of arrangements. You can pass policies that reflect a particular set of values and those that those policies can then reorients redirect us. And part of this is you, I using the example of the text. Right. 00;02;42;10 - 00;03;09;18 Speaker 1 You know, you know that, I don't like stepping on cold floors when I wake up. And so to avoid stepping on cold floors, I decide to deliberately put my house shoes right next to the bit where my feet would. And that habit oriented way. And so there's a way in which you can engage in habit formation through policy that can then have an effect on character. 00;03;09;21 - 00;03;26;08 Speaker 1 And so we can change people, by way of expressing our commitments through policy decisions, as opposed to waiting for people to change so that we can change our policies. You see what I mean? So we can actually use policy to to generate different habits. 00;03;26;14 - 00;03;57;05 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, what we become of particularly American history, many of the policy makers, had to have a moral imagination in order to institute a policy that was, let's say, now popular, and, and I think that on some level came from their morality, I think, I mean, see, in many cases, it came from their own self-interest and in different types of ways. 00;03;57;05 - 00;04;23;02 Speaker 2 But I think there have been policy makers who who recognized that once we transform policies and once people see that, let's say in the case that, you know, my children going to school with black children, they're not going to get eaten by those black children. If anything, they're going to befriend and learn from those black children. 00;04;23;04 - 00;04;49;00 Speaker 2 It becomes then harder to fear monger, you know, about, let's say, segregated schools, and, and and I think that but somebody has to do the courageous thing and institute policies will break down racist sort of elements of racist systems. And I think that's what we where we've been lacking. 00;04;49;02 - 00;05;09;10 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think I think though I think that what I was trying to say, and I think you're right here, is that it's, it's it may it's a false opposition. A policy can be used, to orient us in a different sort of way to each other, who we might not be able to change the hearts of racists, but we can keep them from acting in a racist way. 00;05;09;12 - 00;05;39;12 Speaker 1 And that puts in place the conditions for the possibility of change, which we could a bit ourselves different, but it's no guarantee. But it's also the case seems to be that, I think Madison's right that, democracies, in order for democracies to work, requires a certain kind of virtuous person. And for me, habit formation is always bound up with character formation because habits, as Aristotle would say, a critical to the kinds of persons we take ourselves to be. 00;05;39;12 - 00;06;11;24 Speaker 1 So, if you have public policy space that's completely eviscerated by neoliberal ends and commitments, that's going to reflect a certain set of values that are antithetical to, a certain, way of thinking about community and the like, thinking about how we might value, human beings or might, value more human beings who have money, who are heterosexual or male in who are white in a different way. 00;06;11;24 - 00;06;52;22 Speaker 1 So part of what I'm trying to suggest is that we don't want to think about these things as, as antithetical. But with Baldwin, the moral question is always paramount because he's grappling with the I think that the the important question is, what kind of human being do you take yourself to be? And it seems to me, if we lose sight of that question and become technocratic in terms of how we think about policy and the like, we might find ourselves, well, you know, what do you think about that? 00;06;52;24 - 00;07;19;21 Speaker 2 I do, and I also see a continuous and relentless effort to almost normalize immorality for the lack of a better sort of concept in the way that has been done historically. And I tried to show in my work has to has been through the production and circulation of of racist ideas, which then and even other forms of bigotry. 00;07;19;22 - 00;08;04;24 Speaker 2 So that's what your consumption of those ideas, you're believing those ideas to be normality or to be natural, or that to your point, you're led to believe that certain groups should be value more than others. That then leads to a sort of a practice. Immorality that you tell yourself is actually quite moral. And, and I think that that then leads you to defend policies, or even welcome policies, or even empower policy makers who, maintain injustice, under the pretext of justice. 00;08;04;27 - 00;08;34;02 Speaker 1 So, so yeah, this is really important points, but so how then do you address that? The because I take the question that's being asked of us, do you address that reality that you just described by way of policy or by way of the moral peer or, or and or so? Is it some internalized effort? Right. You got to grapple with because there's one way of reading how to be an anti-racist, right? 00;08;34;04 - 00;09;01;25 Speaker 1 Is that there's something inside of you that you have to tend to, that the socialization and to to use your language in more out. Right. The fact that you see the world of color through this lens, that allows you to view that some people, because of the color, their skin of value more than others, that what's really needed is an attitude of tending to those beliefs in you as the precondition for change. 00;09;02;00 - 00;09;06;24 Speaker 1 Or what do you make of that as a is that a caricature of your position? Well, I. 00;09;06;25 - 00;09;57;13 Speaker 2 Would say that I think, I think one tradition, particularly, within the black radical tradition, has been for us, it's black people to constantly be interrogating and raising our consciousness. So our consciousness, you know, and that when I was growing up, there was a difference between are you conscious or not? Right. And so what did that mean? What did it mean to be conscious or what did it mean in in the 70s when you had black people gathering together to raise their consciousness, or even women having consciousness raising sort of sessions, you know, with secondary things like, what did that actually mean? 00;09;57;16 - 00;10;34;11 Speaker 2 And, and I think some people, could read those gatherings, even read that, those efforts to gain a sense of consciousness as simply this individual trying to enlighten themselves or gain knowledge for knowledge is sake. But I think what was actually happening in certainly this is what I attempted to do with my book, is you're seeking to understand and gain a better sense of, of the world that you're living in, so you could radically transform. 00;10;34;13 - 00;11;23;16 Speaker 2 And and how do you go about gaining a sense of consciousness, of your own ideas that are causing you to see black people as the problem? As opposed to the structure of racism? But what I, I did not write about in, you know what I think you've, you've written about beautifully. And I think this again, speaks to the question at hand, is so good is morality playing like, that's not you know, I it's it's not necessarily something that I have written about or even really understood, which is why I'm just interested in this conversation, is I think it's forcing me to sort of think about things in a, in a new or 00;11;23;16 - 00;11;24;17 Speaker 2 different way. 00;11;24;20 - 00;12;01;20 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. I mean, I think it's it's really important for us to ask ourselves the question, what kind of human beings do democracies require? What what are the underlying assumptions, preconditions that make democratic life possible? So I'm fond of saying that Abraham Lincoln couldn't be the kind of man that his conception of democracy required, because he was too willing at times to throw everything away because of his commitment to the idea or the belief that some people, because of the color of their skin, about more than others. 00;12;01;20 - 00;12;19;08 Speaker 1 So democracy distorted and disfigured in this moment. Right? So, you know, this, this question, it's and the moral question, is it some kind of moralist question? Right. It's it's about character formation. 00;12;19;08 - 00;12;20;04 Speaker 2 Right. 00;12;20;07 - 00;12;26;23 Speaker 1 But, how does how does one can I just ask you? Sure. Why do you. 00;12;26;23 - 00;13;01;23 Speaker 2 Think? Because I think. For the better part of the lives, 60 years, we were openly having a conversation about the moral question. But I think particularly in the last ten years, if not longer, that has not been a part of our political discourse. Certainly our political racial discourse. Is that something you see, you or my work? 00;13;01;26 - 00;13;17;02 Speaker 2 I mean, I know that we've been trying to elevate that. We've been trying, but it seems as if those gatekeepers of the discourse don't, want us to have that type of conversation. Now, do you think? 00;13;17;02 - 00;13;49;19 Speaker 1 You know, I think it's a more so I think we don't want to the. I think it's a moral question, and an ethical question. But God. The social safety net. Right. What are our obligations to each other? As, as as as people in community with one another. All right. So one, what does it mean to to to see, policy decisions, since 1980 that gutted, any concern for the poor. 00;13;49;19 - 00;13;51;08 Speaker 1 That to me is a moral posture. 00;13;51;10 - 00;13;52;21 Speaker 2 It is a. 00;13;52;23 - 00;14;47;20 Speaker 1 What does it mean for, neoliberal, political economy to define or to empty or visceral in notion of the public good such that we become these selfish, self-interested persons in competition, in rivalry with others, in pursuit of our own ends, aims and ends that, to me is a moral question with policy implications. Right? So I think since 1980, we've been, in a place in this country, where, a certain conception of what, the role of government is what the role of the citizen is, a certain understanding of, of economy, a certain understanding of, do you know if this stuff has, has over overwhelmed. 00;14;47;23 - 00;15;13;10 Speaker 1 Or kind of more straightforward moral discourse that we tend to associate with a certain version of, of the 1960s civil rights, right. And a certain version of that. Right. So, so I don't think it's, it's, it's that the the moral question has receded. It's just been answered in a particular sort of way. Right. That requires a kind of response. 00;15;13;12 - 00;15;39;06 Speaker 1 Now, it makes it more difficult when a certain aspect of that civil rights movement has been co-opted, and become the left wing of the Democratic Party, a Democratic party that has in so many ways given to third Way and DLC and all this other stuff, consented to the terms of the neoliberal picture I've just described. 00;15;39;08 - 00;15;56;00 Speaker 1 So one thing has to ask the question from whence the kind of moral and political critique of the environment in which we find ourselves, and and we can begin to lay that out. Right. But the question becomes, for me, right, is that when this goes back to your work, right. So when you drop, how do we do it? 00;15;56;00 - 00;16;20;14 Speaker 1 Race. Is it, you know, have you you experienced what how does that get rid. How does that get taken up. Right. It doesn't get taken up in a sentimentalized way. So what it becomes is a matter of feeling, a matter of my own beliefs. And they would only tell the structure right. Where we tend to think about only that which is right, impacting my own moral compass in life. 00;16;20;20 - 00;16;25;29 Speaker 1 What do you make of that kind of the crocodile? Tears become become the politics, as it were. 00;16;26;01 - 00;17;07;14 Speaker 2 Were, let me first say, because I think. You, you, you, you're rightfully mentioning this neoliberal age that we find ourselves in, just can't help but think about the fact that, a few days ago, Chile, which, of course, the historians have sort of pointed to Chile as the first, country to transition into a neoliberal economy under, of course, Augusto Pinochet. 00;17;07;17 - 00;17;37;00 Speaker 2 And, one of the and, of course, Pinochet would go on to become one of the most exploitative and murderous dictators in modern American history. One of the people who supported Augusto Pinochet, was a man by the name of Michael Cassidy. Who, fled Nazi Germany, after World War two. And with his family. 00;17;37;02 - 00;18;07;00 Speaker 2 And he became a business owner, quite wealthy and financed, Augusto Pinochet. Well, he had a son, by the name of Jose Antonio Karst, who literally just became the president of Chile and has long admired and supported Fuerza and and so it's it's that age seems to be extending itself literally through dynasty, so to speak. 00;18;07;00 - 00;18;40;06 Speaker 2 But to your question and, I think the challenges, as we all know, you write, write books is. It is like, you know, you prepare a meal and you set that meal on the table and there's six different people who who are going to read, who are going to eat that, and they're going to all taste it in a different way, you know, based on their own perspectives, based on their own taste. 00;18;40;09 - 00;19;16;19 Speaker 2 You have a particular intention behind how you want that food. How are you prepared to food, what you want people to feel. But unfortunately, some people are going to feel it in a way that you didn't even intend to. And I think, you know, one aspect of the question, I think that's been really, really difficult for me to watch the conversation around how to be an anti-racist was this idea that, this was a book that satiated people's feelings? 00;19;16;21 - 00;19;49;11 Speaker 2 Because one of the final chapters in the book, which is a chapter called failure, I write about what I call feelings advocacy, to challenge. And I give the example of a person who hears about, let's say, a black person being murdered by police and they feel back, and then they hear about a local demonstration, you know, against police violence. 00;19;49;13 - 00;20;21;21 Speaker 2 And they go to the demonstrations. You have a bunch of powerful speakers who are speaking out against that injustice, while also sort of trying to galvanize people and generate sort of, let's say, radical hope. And so the person is led to that demonstration by their feelings. In other words, I feel bad. I need to do something and so they go to the demonstration, they feel better. 00;20;21;23 - 00;20;56;05 Speaker 2 And the only thing that changes is that you see the so they don't become a part of that local movement to reduce or eliminate police violence. That demonstration only becomes a vehicle for the transformation momentarily of their feelings. And then the same cycle happens. A month later or a year later. And I, I wrote about that because I wanted to, to make the case that that's not certainly being anti-racist. 00;20;56;07 - 00;21;00;07 Speaker 2 Right. And, and I think that that is a huge problem. 00;21;00;10 - 00;21;13;28 Speaker 1 And you watched it in real time. You watched how the book was being read in real time, how its sentiments and the relationship between it and rage and subsequent wife, etc.. 00;21;14;01 - 00;21;32;11 Speaker 2 Yeah. And so like I literally wrote in many cases in the book, wrote against the way that people could ultimately use the book and it just still didn't. But I mean, that's, that's that's I mean, we can't really. 00;21;32;13 - 00;21;38;22 Speaker 1 So talk to me about the relationship between I'm sorry, I just I'm really fascinated about this. 00;21;38;24 - 00;21;39;07 Speaker 2 It's like, oh. 00;21;39;08 - 00;22;11;06 Speaker 1 I'm so different. About the relationship between that which you take to be the misreading of the book and the justifications that you see circulating for the assault of Da under Trump is that night, because there's a way in which you could you can think about the how by function as a kind of corporate managerial strategy for diversity aimed at increasing, you know, efficiency and productivity among an increasingly diverse workforce. 00;22;11;08 - 00;22;34;23 Speaker 1 Right. To see the, as somehow shifting the ground, of the way in which we understand, going from multiculturalism to the, the, going from that which was a problem to that, which is a value, in, in the aim and pursuit of, of of of of more profit in the life. Right. And now in this moment. 00;22;34;26 - 00;23;00;08 Speaker 1 Right. We're V is under assault from every corner. And in so many ways you find yourself as the poster boy of it. All right. Talk about how that misreading, as you say, right, is tied to or maybe tied to the current moment. Or if it is, do you see it? Because that certainly does. You mean it's the way it was? 00;23;00;08 - 00;23;21;26 Speaker 1 Robert D'Angelo was red, in this moments. Right. So how might we think about the way in which the Mr.. The strong misreading of these works, as you put it right, serve as justification. Right. But for what the quote unquote woke is then, you know, the woke scare that we currently find that. So how do you respond to that? 00;23;21;29 - 00;24;06;22 Speaker 2 Well, what's interesting is that I have had a few, usually private conversations. With, people who have engaged in some of this misreading to inflame, let's say white centrists or white liberals against, sort of the type of racial justice work we want to do in almost always, these individuals describe my work in a way that I can't even recognize it. 00;24;06;24 - 00;24;56;07 Speaker 2 And so, to give an example, This, one of the sort of one of the interventions I sought to make and how to be anti-racist was an attempt for us to really separate for first, a move from a perpetrator focused conception of the term racist to a victim focused conception of the term racist, which is to say, there are so many cases in in which, a whole host of, let's say, black people are being harmed, by a particular policy or a form of violence. 00;24;56;10 - 00;25;28;14 Speaker 2 And that perpetrator is specifically targeting black people and. And they're typically, in certain cases, benefiting from the targeting of black people out of Clarence Thomas or that black cop who is specifically targeting is I think there was a for instance, there was a, who specifically like targeting black women and as opposed to white women, for sexual predation. 00;25;28;16 - 00;26;02;18 Speaker 2 And so when we come across these cases, we are we tend to ask the question, well, who's the perpetrator as opposed to who are the victims? And, and I mention that because I tried to make this case that, like, we should not argue that black people are inherently anti-racist. We should not argue that black people can't be racist. 00;26;02;21 - 00;26;46;22 Speaker 2 And we should look at, the actual outcome of actions and policies. And I push back against the idea that a particular race is inherently racist or not racist. I mentioned that because one of the ways in which a certain segment of, of these propagandists sought to sort of shift my work because in that shapeshifting was typically directed at white people, was to say to white people, this guy is saying that when you wake up every day, you're inherently racist and you're inherently harming all of this. 00;26;46;22 - 00;26;47;10 Speaker 2 If a Christopher. 00;26;47;10 - 00;26;49;04 Speaker 1 Rufo in these. Yes. 00;26;49;07 - 00;27;35;24 Speaker 2 And, and, and and that, you are not only inherently racist, you're inherently evil because you're white, and all this sort of stuff. And, and, you know, and because of in my name, it was easy to, to essentially create a narrative and sort of attach my name to it. And frankly, some of those ideas, you know, were actually more connected to, to Robin's work than mine, you know, but but as Toni Morrison sort of once, once, once actually spoke about in, in a book, called Black Women Writers at Work. 00;27;35;26 - 00;28;18;27 Speaker 2 She, she wrote about, spoke about how oftentimes when you have a black and white writer who are writing on a similar topic, that the black writer's work is assessed in relation to the white writer's work, that the black writer's work is not assessed on their own terms. And, you know, just always it goes and, and so I think that my work has been assessed in relation into the work of other white writers that whose work with, let's say, is as popular, which I think hasn't been fair to my work or even the work of other black scholars and writers whose work were assessed. 00;28;18;29 - 00;28;32;12 Speaker 2 So we were all coming from different intellectual traditions, but we were sort of put, you know, all together, which I think was, was, you know, was was problematic. But, 00;28;32;14 - 00;28;33;21 Speaker 1 Here we are. 00;28;33;24 - 00;28;35;24 Speaker 2 Here we are, here we are. 00;28;35;27 - 00;29;03;06 Speaker 1 Nevertheless. And, you know, you've been trying. You've been trying, I take it to going back to how we started the conversation around policy, that's trying to, in some ways, through your institutionalizing efforts to figure out how to respond to this by way of powers, to respond to the reality that you're describing. It's talk a little bit about the substance of that. 00;29;03;06 - 00;29;14;24 Speaker 1 What did that what does that look like? Or it would be what does it entail? What have been some of the recommendations or, or something that's come out of their their efforts as you built these institutions around the country? 00;29;14;28 - 00;29;20;12 Speaker 2 Well, let me say this. I think that. 00;29;20;15 - 00;30;05;18 Speaker 2 What I've tried to to convey is, I think, I think many of us who are. Who recognize that the problem is not black people who recognize that the problem is the structure. Then the next question becomes like, what is the structure? And so I tried to talk about and allow people to begin to recognize the power. I should say this powerful structure of policies or the policy structure that ultimately leads to black people being more likely to be incarcerated or killed by police or dying of heart disease, you know, or cancer. 00;30;05;20 - 00;30;42;11 Speaker 2 And and for us to focus our energies there, for us to focus our intellectual and research energies there, as opposed to trying to figure out what's wrong with black people. Yeah. Or particular groups of black people. Right. But I face all sorts of pushback for, for simply rejecting the idea that there's anything wrong with black people. And, you know, the notion that that I could say that any racial disparity where black people are on the lower end is not the not caused by the inferiority of black people. 00;30;42;11 - 00;30;49;11 Speaker 2 It's the result of racist policies. I mean, these folks think that that's just heresy. So then when I say, okay, give. 00;30;49;11 - 00;30;51;07 Speaker 1 Me an example, 00;30;51;10 - 00;31;25;22 Speaker 2 Of of a disparity where black people were on the lower of a dying end, that's not the result of racist policies. And then they start talking about the culture of black people, racist idea, or the behaviors of black people, racist idea, which they imagined to be to, to be, to be that reality. And I mean, but how I'm just curious, how have you, you know, wrestled with these people who. 00;31;25;25 - 00;31;54;01 Speaker 2 Because I what what I've noticed and I'm curious if you, you know, is this is there's been a movement from openly expressing that there's something wrong with black people, particularly if they're not these right wing black writers, because those are the people who are primarily doing that. But it's the their focus is ultimately been racism doesn't exist. Right. 00;31;54;04 - 00;31;58;05 Speaker 2 And if anything, they're saying that white people are the primary bit on this. 00;31;58;05 - 00;32;23;26 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. You know, part of part you know, we we we work in different ways, although we're both trying to tell a different story. Our story, how we can account for our current circumstance. My task is to, in some ways bear witness to, to to the lies that they tell and to and to say, in a very clear and and concise way that they're line. 00;32;23;28 - 00;32;52;02 Speaker 1 So, you know, the and to try to, to to do what Baldwin, said we must do in 1961 and that is crack open the American image to see what it hides and obscures. And there's this insistence that we must have the root right to get at what actually motivates, this retreat into fantasy. This, this, this need to lie about the current circumstances of what is produced. 00;32;52;02 - 00;33;10;15 Speaker 1 Because what we do know is that it was a set of deliberate policies that produced that wrote Mississippi doesn't look like it looks by accident. Right. And if we're going to get beyond it, we're gonna have to be just as deliberate in our dismantle as we were dismantling of it all as we were in creating it. But that first requires admission. 00;33;10;17 - 00;33;31;25 Speaker 1 That's, you know, and sometimes, you know, the admission for some of these folks, in my view, the admission is, is sufficient. Going back to the sentimentality thing, that's all I need to do is to admit to you that that I am, in fact, that I, that the country is in fact racists and that admission should call for absolution. 00;33;31;28 - 00;33;57;03 Speaker 1 I've admitted it. What else do you on? I've told you, you're right. I've engaged in self-flagellation that you call for I did it. What else do you want? Oh, do you want the redistribution of resources? You want fair policies with regards to, criminal justice? You want education to not reflect, right? Communities that are valid as opposed to others. 00;33;57;04 - 00;34;23;16 Speaker 1 Do you want us to address, racial disparities in health care? And I just admit it, that we're, racists, that this is that sufficient. And so I think part of what I've been trying to do in my own work, is, is tell a story that exposes in certain ways, how the life function, this is what I was doing begin again. 00;34;23;18 - 00;34;44;27 Speaker 1 But also to kind of move in. This is in some ways, a reflection of my own upbringing. And, and folks like professor McNair and others where I don't want to begin, the black folks from a position of deficit. Right. Which is at the heart of cultural pathology, are students. Right? So we don't begin there at all. And, you know, you said it in a different way than than what I would say. 00;34;44;27 - 00;35;18;24 Speaker 1 You know, probably there's never been us. It's always been then and then to that point, we're talking about a certain level of generality right now is to say, you know, Baldwin has this distinction. And paraphrasing here, he says, you know, I happen to love a lot of people who happen to be white, and then they're white. And that distinction matters, you know, because at a certain level of generality, that the identification of oneself as white means that you're identifying with a whole host of, of, of benefits that accrue to, to you inhabiting that particular, you know, list. 00;35;18;26 - 00;35;41;19 Speaker 1 So, so I think part of what I've been trying to do from my late right, is to offer a different kind of language for the nation to understand itself, right, by way of telling a full of story, that exposes what's been what's been denied. What's that? Exposes the fantasy for what it is as that makes it. 00;35;41;21 - 00;36;18;13 Speaker 2 It does. And I think one of the things that that I've even noticed in terms of, and I think you, you spoke directly to that is this notion that all a person has to do is just admit that they're the racists. And, and I, I've seen people so, you know, I, I wrote about in how to be an anti-racist and and this largely came about came out of my research for simply beginning how the heartbeat of of being racist is denial. 00;36;18;16 - 00;36;42;26 Speaker 2 And so much of Sam from beginning was not only telling the story of those who were producing racist ideas, but also contextualizing how in almost every case, they were arguing those ideas were not not racist. And that was relentless. Whether you're going all the way back to human traders, eugenicists, you name the group, they were like, oh, these ideas are not race in this. 00;36;43;02 - 00;37;15;03 Speaker 2 This is scientific, this is godly. This is common sense. And it allowed me, you know, particularly as, you know, as an historian to see that coupled with the production of an idea that black people are inferior, is this notion that that idea is not racist, that, that and and this relentless effort to convince to essentially, maintain a common denialism among people. 00;37;15;03 - 00;37;43;02 Speaker 2 So I spent all this time, emphasizing and showing the criticality of denialism as it relates to being racist. And then I say, okay, so then what's the opposite of that denialism for people to actually admit that? And then what people do is they cut off that first part, that whole body of research on denialism, and then they focus on that second part. 00;37;43;05 - 00;37;49;27 Speaker 2 And then they just go on denial that they're racist even after they quote unquote admit it, even angry. 00;37;49;27 - 00;37;52;25 Speaker 1 Well, you don't absolve them later. Yeah, yeah. 00;37;52;28 - 00;38;35;02 Speaker 2 And and and and and so I think that this is the challenge that we face, with people who decide to read works on racism or transforming society from the standpoint of how can I interpret this book in a way that's going to allow me to see the same person after I finish it, or that can allow me to have a new way of reinforcing the status quo? 00;38;35;04 - 00;38;49;24 Speaker 1 Yeah. One thing we can't deny is that they're misreading changes that lie changed our lives. It's that the misreading had an impact on so many different levels. 00;38;49;26 - 00;38;51;13 Speaker 2 Right. 00;38;51;15 - 00;38;59;00 Speaker 1 Because, you know, sometimes, you know, liberal sentimentality can be beneficial. 00;38;59;02 - 00;39;20;12 Speaker 1 Right. So and so even as you try to intervene in that, this is now what I'm writing. This is not what this something else is going on here. You're right. The suddenly you become the darling. And then you have to deal with what that means. Right? And this is, you know, we have a history of folks who were once the values of the liberal establishment of the white chattering classes and then decided to reject it. 00;39;20;12 - 00;39;46;01 Speaker 1 You know, you could talk about Brooks, you could talk about Mary Brock or Joan Dover Jones or Barack. It took Ranger folk who once were lifted up as you know, see. And then suddenly they shift. So, you know, you find yourself in a moment, one moment, the strong misreading of your work opens you up for all of this, and then, boom, in the blink of an eye, we're in the age of Trump. 00;39;46;03 - 00;40;00;00 Speaker 1 And then you have to deal with all the arrows. And so if I come because I know you don't walk, you don't walk, you have to walk, in a hyper alert kind of way, given the nature of environment. And and that's an understatement. 00;40;00;00 - 00;40;45;15 Speaker 2 Yes. I do, and and I think I do, you know, I would though like us to I would personally though like to acknowledge the many, many people who did it, misread my work out it, who, are right now engaged and in campaigns to, to to radically transform systems and or in some ways inspired by, by my work, inspired by Begin again, inspired by, you know, others, other works. 00;40;45;17 - 00;41;25;22 Speaker 2 And some of those people may be white, but of course when and and and I think though those people came to the work from a level of curiosity or introspection, And, and so I just want to say. Yeah. Of cool knowledge. Yeah. No, of those, those people. But the challenges, those people are not you platform. Not because they're not they're not part of the sort of dominant narratives, you know, of this at this moment. 00;41;25;24 - 00;42;15;13 Speaker 2 But I should also add that I think one of the the challenges that I faced is when you have a certain segment of, let's say, white liberals or centrists who are misreading or black writers work, and then through that misreading are positioning that person in a particular form, a spotlight, and then others who have deep criticism of white liberalism sort of see them spotlighting, and then they start criticizing that author's work, who they have rate themselves, or they hear those misreadings and take them to be true as opposed to going to the source, even as they imagine themselves as critical white liberals. 00;42;15;14 - 00;42;25;27 Speaker 2 So they they take white liberal narratives, believe about black writer as opposed to going to the source themselves, which to me is in direct contradiction. 00;42;28;19 - 00;42;47;04 Speaker 2 But I want to actually, you know, I'm curious because I know you have a book coming out and you do too. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I, I, you know, I have to I've seen the cover which is, which is fire or what is it, what is it about? 00;42;47;06 - 00;43;16;04 Speaker 1 I'm, I was about to ask you the same thing about your new book or this. You know, I've been appreciate you ask you, I think in this moment, we have to risk everything. On the page. If we're going to bear witness to the times that we're in, we have to allow our pens to do the work that they're supposed to do. 00;43;16;07 - 00;43;41;20 Speaker 1 As witnesses, to put it a different way. So this book is really, we're in a moment in the 250th where we have to where we're going to be drowning in these attempts to a capital to account for the founder, these stories about our beginnings. And so I was trying to figure out how to write the 250 year history of the country without writing it, 250 year history of the country. 00;43;41;23 - 00;44;11;00 Speaker 1 I'll leave that to you guys to do that or work. So I decided to look at the milestone the anniversary of 1876, 1926, 1976, up to 2026, and each of these milestone anniversaries, the country has to tell a story about itself. And each of these moments, race us confounds each. 1876 the Violence of the Collapse of Reconstruction. 00;44;11;02 - 00;44;38;25 Speaker 1 1926 the nativism, the age of the Klan, the violence of that period, 1976, the anti bussing movement, and a range of other things that were happening. So what I'm trying to do is to tell the story, of the nation's story, tell right, America, USA, how race shatters the nation's anniversaries grappling with this cycle. This is why I was pressing around sentimentality and rage. 00;44;38;27 - 00;45;03;01 Speaker 1 Yet I actually invoke a sentiment, you know, sentimental is reading of having been anti racism attacks. Right. Because what happens, in my view, is that we find ourselves in this cycle, right? When there's a chapter entitled freedom is the White Man's Gift. So freedom is that which white men or white people think they possess to give it the take away. 00;45;03;03 - 00;45;23;29 Speaker 1 And so they give in these moments of sentimentality, what can we do for the cry? What? You know, Baldwin, I ask this when you read Baldwin's corpus, he talks about the weather and sentimentality. For him is a mask for cruelty. And so you get this sentimentalist expression, right. What can we do in order to in the anti-slavery moment? 00;45;23;29 - 00;45;56;03 Speaker 1 And then soon as slavery is in, you know, the passage of the Civil War amendments, we'll talk about them actually voting, you know, the sort of thing things that happen. So we find ourselves moving from sentimentality into white race, to use correctly, Anderson's language. And so the book is really kind of trying to chart the repetition, the echo, that which is wholly unprecedented, but entirely for mood at the same time. 00;45;56;05 - 00;46;00;09 Speaker 1 And me trying to grapple with the fact that in the 250th year, the country when we. 00;46;00;09 - 00;46;02;07 Speaker 2 Have to deal with this. 00;46;02;09 - 00;46;27;25 Speaker 1 Stuff there. So the book is angry. I do a lot of source material near his cooked historical work in the archive. Rereading the archive is a kind of quilt, right, of somewhat of the of the, shall we say, the discarded pieces. And what's important is how it's written all together. Now you're writing about replacing what made you okay. 00;46;27;25 - 00;46;43;06 Speaker 1 You gave us a sense of stamp to how to be an anti-racist. Here. You get the denialism over here, right? And then you want to turn, okay, if you're not this, you want to do this. And now what is great, great is this book. Come great. Replace me. 00;46;43;07 - 00;47;32;03 Speaker 2 Say so. Well, it's interesting because you use books about is transition from sentimentality to race. And and I think one of the things that I attempt to do in, in, in sheet of ideas is to show from an ideological standpoint how that transition ended up happening. Which is to say, I, I think one of the main sort of storylines of that book is, is showing how great replacement theory fuels the rage. 00;47;32;06 - 00;48;17;02 Speaker 2 And I was really, I think, you know, after 2020, I was starting, I was trying to grapple, with. This the emergence of this construct, the anti whiteness and this increasing, propaganda idea that anti whiteness was becoming the sort of defining oppressive system of our, of our time, like not anti-blackness. I think, you know, what I've done is of course. 00;48;17;02 - 00;48;58;26 Speaker 2 Yeah. And so I was trying I started to try to investigate that. And certainly that was that sort of those talking points were specifically meant for, for white people and were particularly, served up to white people by, people who were seeking a new way to dominate and exploit white people in the rest of us. And, and, and so I, I started to, to, to, to investigate, like, where did this come from? 00;48;58;28 - 00;49;35;04 Speaker 2 And the more I studied that construct of, of anti whiteness, the more I, I eventually landed at great replacement theory and, and as I started to research and study greater replacement theory, it ultimately brought me around the world. And so the term the great replacement or great replacement theory emerges from a French novelist, neighbor no commune, who wrote a book called The Great Replacement in 2011. 00;49;35;06 - 00;49;40;01 Speaker 2 He names a theory that had been around for quite some time. 00;49;40;02 - 00;49;44;10 Speaker 1 It's Grant, it's Stoddard. We've seen this stuff in the 20 early teens. 00;49;44;12 - 00;50;10;06 Speaker 2 And that is a function of how ideas operate. Ideas are not like humans, in which most humans are named even before they're born. If not, you know, a week after, typically ideas are not made, so to speak. May not be named for 100, you know, 200 years after they start circling. So that certainly was the case with, with with replacement theory. 00;50;10;09 - 00;50;51;26 Speaker 2 And so the book chronicles the resurgence of great replacement theory in the United States and around the world over the last two, two decades. And, and this theory just so just so we can sort of level set, I define it as a political theory that suggests these powerful elites for enabling, let's say, black and brown people to displace the lies and likelihoods of white people who apparently now need authoritarian protection. 00;50;51;29 - 00;51;27;12 Speaker 2 And so when we hear, notions like, people from Africa and Asia are poisoning the blood, the nation that that's an example of great replacement theory. When we hear ideas like immigrants are invaders. That's an example of quote replacement theory. When we hear ideas like diversity programs are describing nation. That's an example of, of of great replacement theory. 00;51;27;12 - 00;52;18;08 Speaker 2 When we hear ideas like the white race due to its low birth rates, are dying out. That's also an example of great implicit theory. And what was striking and studying and writing about this theory is how it actually connects the demonization of immigrants to the demonization of, let's say, African-Americans. And and to give probably the most obvious example, the young white male who sign up that supermarket in Buffalo, New York, wrote a manifesto. 00;52;18;10 - 00;53;25;14 Speaker 2 And in that manifesto, he described African-Americans as the most visible set of workplaces, literally, and that he was seeking to annihilate us before we annihilate white people, which, of course, harkens back to the logic of Confederates and enslavers and in Jim Crow segregationist and those who opposed decolonization and Nazis and this, this sort of cocktail of some of the most horrific, and violent and dangerous, racist ideas, so all wrapped up in one and, and and and finally, I, I the book chronicles how elected officials think, not just the Trump, you know, we we as Americans, particularly being focused on this nation state can, can imagine that sort of that, 00;53;25;14 - 00;54;15;13 Speaker 2 that, that Trump and Trump is and his ideas that it's sort of coming out of his, demonic sort of ways. And, and so we're really missing which doesn't allow us to see how this regime has literally used the playbook of, authoritarians like Orban in Hungary or Putin in Russia, or Bukele and El Salvador or Modi in India, typically sort of framing Muslims or black people or indigenous people, or feminists or queer people, or ethnic minorities, as these replacers. 00;54;15;13 - 00;55;18;18 Speaker 2 So therefore they need to do away with civil liberties and rights in order to protect the quote, privileged majority groups. So that's what the book sort of chronicles. It's a pretty devastating analysis. I, I, I seek to, to show how great replacement theory, has become the most dominant political theory of our time when we look at the power, frankly, of these heads of states in these major opposition leaders who are deploying this theory to build or maintain, their racist dictatorships, whether conventional or electoral, and, how, it's even caused some it's even caused some black people to believe that you have African Americans who believe that black 00;55;18;18 - 00;55;25;17 Speaker 2 immigrants are coming to, to take their jobs. And that's how insidious ultimately, this is serious. 00;55;25;19 - 00;55;47;20 Speaker 1 So how do you see in that? I want to pivot up or ask this question, too, because I want to get at something else. How do you see this particular work working? What do you what do you think? I mean, so, you know, like I said, you our have to do some work in this small group. What do you see. 00;55;47;22 - 00;56;06;27 Speaker 1 What do you take telling this story in this moment to be do what what you hope to achieve. Is it just simply this is connecting dots, giving people. What do you hope the book, what kind of work do you give the book? Or you hope the book to be known that folks can taste different. They got different palettes like we talked about. 00;56;07;00 - 00;56;47;08 Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, what I hope and again, I we can hope a lot of things for our children. Right. Which is feed is it's going to happen. Right. But what I hope is first and foremost that black Americans reading this work, will be able to recognize, and really protect themselves from this insidious idea, which I think is then leading to, 00;56;47;10 - 00;57;27;13 Speaker 2 Diaspora Wars that that are ultimately undermining, I think, black liberation in the United States and, and worldwide. I hope that, particularly black people, Latinos, Muslims and indigenous peoples around the world see how this theory is positioning them all as replacers, and, and kind of, new forms of solidarity, for their sort of collective liberation. 00;57;27;15 - 00;57;54;24 Speaker 2 I hope that I the Twitter, my views, I, I did not. When I set out to, to to write this book, I thought it was primarily going to be a book about this great replacement theory as a racist idea. And what I ultimately have to show is how it's how it's mutated, depending on the particular context of the nation. 00;57;54;24 - 00;58;44;14 Speaker 2 See? And so you have certain nations that the, the demographic makeup is different, which then necessitates a different group to be positioned as the quote unquote, replacers or a different group to be positioned, as a, the quote, deserving group than is being replaced. And so I say that all to say that the, the, the theory has mutated to state things like in, in Russia, queer people are replacing the traditional values, of, of heterosexual resistance, or the ways in which in, in, in, in El Salvador, 00;58;44;16 - 00;59;24;03 Speaker 2 Bukele has positioned, anyone who is not supportive of his regime, as seeking to destroy, the good people in cahoots with the gangs, or the ways in which, you've had these shooters, who have ended up mass murdering Muslims or black people, or Jewish people in their manifestos. They not only, went after multiculturalism or anti-racism, they went after feminism justice harshly. 00;59;24;05 - 01;00;02;04 Speaker 2 And they argue that gender ideology, as they call it, was, leading to the devastation of Europe. So I'm saying that to say, I'm also hoping that you have many people who are focused, let's say, on racial justice or gender justice, or justice for queer people or justice for, those who are facing settler colonialism and they're focused in their own sort of half. 01;00;02;04 - 01;00;25;19 Speaker 2 And I, I'm hoping that the book allows people to see that this political theory, has fundamentally united them as all as, as sort of these enemies, which then necessitates a form of solidarity that we have to build, you know, in order to liberate us. I feel like I'm going on. 01;00;25;20 - 01;00;59;08 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no, I see, I see, I see, I see the law. Let's, let's, let's switch something as we come to a close, if you don't mind. It's been an interesting journey. We've gone through a lot experience a lot. Personally, from health to the family to. But, what what have you learned about you in this journey that you've taken? 01;00;59;13 - 01;01;23;18 Speaker 1 Because I, you know, I want to go back to to how we we began at the moral question. It's always tied to what kind of human be do we aspire to be? Every time we act, every time we make a choice, every time, we mobilize, we organize, every time we stand in solidarity. But it's a reflection in so many ways. 01;01;23;20 - 01;01;45;19 Speaker 1 The character, you know, I always say, whatever, I lose my way, I can always recenter because I'm a mama's baby, right? And storms are what they are. So you've been through some things. So how how would you begin to answer that question? 01;01;45;21 - 01;01;49;15 Speaker 2 What have you learned about you, about. 01;01;49;18 - 01;02;01;01 Speaker 1 The current moment? Generally, especially if you're talking to your young, these self, you know, the way you see, ask. 01;02;01;03 - 01;02;41;18 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I, I mean, I've learned I've learned so much and I'm just trying to figure out maybe the one thing the focus answers would hard time not. But I think, I think the one thing that that that I learned. Is and I think it speaks to something I said earlier and we would when you asked about expectations, were chain of ideas. 01;02;41;20 - 01;03;26;23 Speaker 2 I think with previous books, most of the books that I've published, I had a very clear desire for what I want to happen. And as a result, the book of that book project and if that envision, did it happen, it would it would be, really difficult. And, I also, felt that I put too much value in what other people were saying about the book, so I didn't. 01;03;26;26 - 01;03;48;14 Speaker 2 So when I released the book, I had a it was almost like I had a hypothesis of the quality of the book, and that hypothesis was going to either be confirmed or not, you know, by people. And and so what I've learned, in that. 01;03;48;14 - 01;03;49;15 Speaker 1 Sense. 01;03;49;17 - 01;04;22;11 Speaker 2 Is that, like, I have to first be completely comfortable with the book and I, you know, I can't assess for myself the quality of a book based on what other people want to see. And I'm not able to know whether they actually read it. But even more importantly, once the book is out in the world, I just have to let it be and I have to move on. 01;04;22;14 - 01;04;52;00 Speaker 2 And whatever, wherever it sort of goes, so be is is where it goes. I can't control that. And I can't be excited or devastated if it goes in the direction I want. I don't want it, you know, and because that's just not something that I can control, but I can control the quality of the book. And I can say, you know what? 01;04;52;00 - 01;05;52;25 Speaker 2 This book is not ready to go out of the world. So I need to ensure that it's in even better quality or more clear or or has the capacity to, to bring about more to use. That's where I can sort of control, I think that was a product of my academic training. Because as academics, we're taught that your book or your, your, your scholarly project and its quality is totally based on your peers and what they say and and I think that has resulted in some of us who've put out books that, for instance, are still being read today, but their peers, in their time were deeply critical. 01;05;53;10 - 01;06;29;24 Speaker 2 Or were, or the vice versa, right, in which people put out books. Their peers were praising it. But the next generation was it wasn't really reading. And so I just think maybe, you know, as, as academics, I think there can be a way in which we simultaneously. Make sure that we feel comfortable and we're we have a sense of, we have a sense of that. 01;06;29;24 - 01;06;45;12 Speaker 2 This book is, is, is a it's a quality book. And then, you know, when our peers speak highly of it or not, that's great, but that's for them. Right. But then talk about tenure. That's a whole lot. 01;06;45;15 - 01;06;49;21 Speaker 1 Easier said than done. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. It's been a pleasure. 01;06;49;24 - 01;06;51;21 Speaker 2 The pleasure of course. 01;06;51;21 - 01;07;19;07 Speaker 1 Thank you for spending time with us and for being a part of the Baldwin Co community. Every listen helps to keep the conversation alive. So thank you for listening. And if you believe in the work that we're doing, building literacy, nurturing curiosity and investing in our city, please, please, please consider supporting to the Bone and Co Foundation. You can go on to that Bco foundation at org. 01;07;19;07 - 01;07;38;27 Speaker 1 You can make a donation or you can just go to WW Baldwin or call books.com. You can follow us on our socials just at Baldwin and Company. So make sure you follow us. Check us out, subscribe. If you want to watch the video portion of this podcast and all of our podcasts, definitely check out our YouTube channel. 01;07;38;28 - 01;08;00;09 Speaker 1 It's just Baldwin and co on YouTube. Put it in the search and it'll come right up. So thank you so much. Please. Your donations, a few, programs that open doors our kids and our neighborhoods. And, when you're ready for your next great read, make sure to visit us online at Baldwin and Co. Every book you buy to help us just keep the movement going. 01;08;00;14 - 01;08;18;22 Speaker 1 If you're in New Orleans, make sure to stop by. Our address is 1030 Legion Fields Avenue. Come by and check us out. Get a good book, hang with us, get a good cup of coffee, and, look forward to seeing you. Have a good one.