Foundation - S03 - David Goyer Season 3 Interview and Behind the Scenes!

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Are we supposed to notice that and file that information away for the future? Yes. That would have been, hopefully, I don't know, that will presumably be a season four shoe that will drop.

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Foundation and Podcast. We're the officially unofficial podcast for everything Foundation on Apple TV. And do I have a treat for you? But first, stop this right now. If you've not seen the season finale of season three. foundation because we're about to talk to the former showrunner the writer of this season did some directing

I'll let him tell the full story because we spend quite a bit of time talking about exactly what happened on season three. But he's saying about 85 percent of what's on the screen was it was his vision, his ideas. And. We'll not be back for season four. This was a surprise. I got indication that he wasn't planning on doing anything, but he did contact us a couple weeks ago.

So now after you've seen again, season three, episode 10, definitely see the finale because we're spoils for that. Our conversation. With David Goyer, the man with a thousand credits to his name, including Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy, being the writer of the Blade series directed Blade Trinity. Of course, he is also the Shoner Foundation. TV shows like Sandman, executive producer Murderbot that was awesome on Apple TV, as well as my personal favorite, Dark City.

We will be talking to David Goyer and there will also be spoilers for the series at the end of this conversation because I ask him some questions beyond season three. If you're not a book reader or not familiar with that stuff or not interested in it, make sure you listen for it. It's well marked.

But without further ado, let's talk to David S. Goyer. David, I want to ask you at the beginning. In your own words. Walk us through the production that you were involved in on season three. Really quickly, what happens is prior to each season, I would write a document, a brain. dump of like five or six pages of writ large what I think the season is. And then I would give that to the writers and we would talk about it. And I would say each season.

And it follows that initial brain dump 80%. Sometimes different writers would come up with an idea that would improve it. And then I decide. who should write each episode based on their strengths or what the particular storyline is. And then... The way it works in terms of the writing after that is then typically myself and Jane Espenson, who I would describe as my number two, will do a final pass on the scripts.

regardless of whether or not our names are on them. Which is not to say that the individual writers didn't have huge contributions, but sort of everything sort of comes through that. We, you know, obviously I oversee the casting of every season and I decide which directors will do which episodes, their new department heads, things like that.

And then I'll have the final say on costumes and sets and locations and blah, blah, blah. And because the show is so complicated and we often shoot in many different countries, we don't shoot. Episode one and finish it and then move on to episode two and then finish. The whole thing's put into a blender. And it's all shot out of order based on what makes the most sense for. You know, we'll shoot a location out or a country out, roughly speaking. So to the extent that it matters.

There's not a clear demarcation in the season in terms of where my oversight ended or not. For instance, the Imperial storyline. for the most part in episodes eight, nine, and 10 had all been filmed before I left. So most of episode 10 had been filmed before I left for it. Oh, wow. So it's not, it's anyway. Just if that's an interest. So what had happened was. Season three was pumping along and. Then.

the writer's strike happened uh we'd shot about half the season at that point and i was directing the first three episodes and um because i was also a director i could still continue to work as a director after the writers strike but we couldn't make any changes to the scripts after that but in some degree we were pretty lucky because some some shows didn't have their scripts finished. And so they had to check that immediately. So we kept shooting up until the actor's strike. And then...

It was pencils down. And then what I could do because I was a producer is I worked with the directors on editing. the first half of what had been shot. Not the first sequential half, but the first 50% of the footage. So a lot of scenes, especially ones involving visual effects, were locked. So a lot of the Imperial stuff, what happened with Demrezel and the Ascension Chamber, that was all locked a long time ago. Gotcha.

And so then once the writer's strike ended, Apple and Skydance had incurred another maybe $11 million in expenses. just keeping the set standing, blah, blah. So understandably, they were keen to claw back as much of that as they could. The budget impact was not largely felt on season three because they then discovered the train had largely... There were some places that you guys alluded to. There were some places where...

what we call when people are actors are speaking and you're on the back of their heads and the lines don't quite line up. That's called ADR automatic dialogue replacement. And. You are correct in surmising that that was used to sort of patch some things that were removed or whatnot. And I happen to think if I had been overseeing that aspect of it, it could have.

been a bit more nuanced and maybe not as noticed. But a lot of the big budgeting changes, the season does largely still look like foundation. they won't be felt until season four that's what everybody's afraid of that like you know people are like well this season was pretty good it went okay you know we've been talking about yeah call it 85%. It's largely, I've quibbled with a few things here or there, like some, you know, because I had, with my visual effects supervisor, I had put

into play most of the big VFX sequences before it left. But there are some things here and there where I'm like, I wouldn't have done that, or I would have pushed that back, or I would have. But those are relatively minor. There's a bit more reliance on voiceover. Then there might have been those are relatively minor things that I don't think most people would would notice. Right.

You're talking about like in the terms of like Gale because her voiceover has been part of it. I did notice that it. Her voice was a lot louder in the voiceovers this season. Yeah, and for my taste, a bit more explain-y rather than character-y. Like a bit more like an exposition dump. right so but again i i think that those are relatively minor changes and the people that stayed on the show you know did the best they could uh to sort of finish the season per my vision.

I want to talk about because, you know, the 85-15 and when I talked to you towards the beginning of the season, you know, I thought you'd made a couple of pretty clear statements, but then the muddy, you know. telephone game starts going around and the waters are muddied. And so I just reached out and I said, you know, worth a shot. And you given kind of like a much shorter version of that answer. But then you said.

You watched the first episode because you were very involved with that, but then you weren't going to watch any of the future episodes. With the distance of time... And I just wondered, like, can you walk us? Because because I've always this whole is like, I can't imagine being David Goyer and getting this thing.

created and realize and all of the backflips and miracles that you worked and all the and you're getting to like the good part. You know, you're getting to like, you know, what is the fun part? I'm getting into the mule. It's like I think it is like it'd be like if.

And I was very excited for season four, but keep going. Yeah, like if David and Dan got kicked off at Game of Thrones in the middle of season three, and the whole thing is like, man, it'd be awesome. I can't wait to do the Red Wedding. And it's like... I could see. But like, how could you walk us through how that changed? Was it one something that you just like couldn't stay away from? Or did you hear friends and family being like, wow, this is.

it really turned out well or what brought you around to like okay i'll i'll watch this it was mostly just like the distance of a time and um and Knowing that a lot of my, you know, fellow writers and directors and, you know, I had I had. I had socialized a couple of times with my visual effects supervisor, you know, since then. And, you know, talking things through. And his and a few other people's opinions were, look, this season...

Most people can tell this season is still really good. It's almost entirely still your vision. You should enjoy it for what it's worth. And I think having the distance allowed me to... be able to do that i mean look even when there were like season two season one season two there were things in those seasons that i still wins that as well so it's it's just part of being

kind of a perfectionist and knowing, you know, those of us on the inside know what certain things could have been versus the audience doesn't know what they don't know.

You mentioned because you did an ask yourself on your own site, David Goyer dot com. And one of the things you mentioned, someone asked you, like, what are the challenges or things that were. surprising, you know, in a season three. And you mentioned something that took me off guard, which is the cryo tanks. Damn those damn those cryo tanks. I was like, could you talk a little bit more of like because it seems like a simple setup, you know, like how could this go wrong?

First of all, the actors are submerged in water. Right. High risk. Yeah. And they've got a scuba tank in between takes. You have to be careful not to put any lights or things over the top of the tank. So in case there's an emergency, some people can pull them out. So they're difficult to light.

Also difficult to, you know, there were some attempts in season one to do a sort of fake underwater thing where sometimes you can add a filter and put in boats and things like that. But if the person's hair is up, it doesn't.

really look right and so i had made the decision for better or worse to say no we're going to do it for real uh and it's also difficult to get cameras in there so we were using um these sort of telescopic lenses that were sort of like periscope lenses that were this mount with mirrors that would sort of extend a few feet down into the tank and then...

It's just hard to get angles. I wasn't even thinking about periscopes. Yeah, it's very time consuming. And so, for instance, there were, I mean, again, this is minor, but the... We had only filmed about maybe 60% of the sort of in-tank shots before I'd left. And I had some other shots scheduled. that would have added again, this is relatively minor, but like some different angles and sort of density of images. Episode two had a much bigger what I call sort of Breaking Bad montage of.

them waking up in the water draining and like different angles and it was all set to music it would have been you know how it'd be in some of the later seasons of breaking bad they would have these sort of intricate We had something going on in episode two. And the only way that happens is if the showrunner or director is just sort of meticulous about going, okay.

And then I need these little shots and these little shots and these little shots. It's about a density of imagery. And that kind of went by the wayside after I left, which is, again, I don't know. The audience doesn't know what they don't know. So they're like, okay. They're waking. But what it would have given you is this sense of repetition as the shots come faster and faster and faster of all those times that Gale was waking up and waking up and waking up. And that was...

tied into I think they did one shot, but there was a lot of time lapse photography that was also embedded into it. So not just like one shot, but I think I had 10 different time lapse. shots of like the sun and the moon, you know, sort of gliding across the palace and Ignis and things like that, just of time passing.

I have to ask this because I'm familiar with another instance where a showrunner stepped away in season four, Dan Harmon with Community, and then he came roaring back and finished out the series season five and six. Any any possibility that after the gas leak foundation season that we'd get back to that? I just want to just see what you what would your reaction be to that? I wouldn't say it's impossible, but. I wouldn't get your hopes up either. If Apple had come back.

and said, will you finish it out? I mean, now that, again, I've had some distance, I might consider it. But it would have to be, well, what does that look like? How can we?

How can we try to mitigate against some of the chaos, you know? Because on the other side of it, you'd mentioned how brutal it was being away from your family. It was brutal, and that was a legitimate reason. I think I had all... said to different people that I'm close with. It was a combination of being away from my family. I've got three kids and I'm. a wife that i love and and during during covid they were with me over in europe uh and so but after

After COVID, you know, the last couple of years, they would come back and forth. But because we were so far away, it wasn't even a direct flight. We were shooting in Prague or often, well, that's where our base was. I would have to take the 12 hour flight to Europe and then a layover and then another two hour flight. So door to door, it was like an entire day.

So even if we had five days off, like it would be different if I were shooting a show in Vancouver, right? We had a long weekend. I could go. I could come and go. But this was I needed in order to make it even worth a while and not destroy myself physically. I needed like a good nine days off where I could come home. And that only happened once or twice a season. And so if the show had been closer or

there had been kind of less chaos. If either of those things had happened, I would probably still be doing it. But it was just, it was a hard, you know, one of my, my oldest son was going away.

to college and there was like a lot of compelling reasons to be home and my younger one was changing schools and middle one was going into junior high it was just there was a lot you know so it was hard to balance uh because yeah six years i mean as a dad whose son just graduated from high school and went off to college like six years is a lot

a third of a high school child's life to be away from. So I know a lot of people say, oh yeah, that's right. But that was a big component of it. Yeah. And look, part of when you're at-

Matt in the career, in my career, fortunately, I've gotten to some places where I've been able to make some things that I'm really proud of. And that's the dream, right? It's like you claw your way up. the ladder through all the development hell. And then you get to make something you're really proud of that people like. But, you know, there are prices. And if you have...

a marriage that you care about and kids that you care about, you have to factor all that in. Right. We'll be right back with more Bald Move after this brief pause. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to-do list is a great feeling.

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Welcome to Only Murders in the Building, the official podcast. Join me, Michael Ciro Creighton, as we go behind the scenes with some of the amazing actors, writers, and crew from season five. The audience should never stop suspecting anything. How can you...

not be funny crawling around on a coffin. No, that's true. Catch Only Murders in the Building official podcast now streaming wherever you get your podcasts and watch Only Murders in the Building streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. And now, back with more Bald Move. I want to see, because you said this was about 85% of your vision and there's 15% not. You mentioned that there was going to be some Breaking Bad style meth metallic montages.

it what what where was the other because like obviously they spent you know the the whole novacula system was really visually impressive um Where do you did you did you see any others who jumped out? I was like, oh, because I kept on thinking it's like we probably they'd cut the scenes of like the the migration of the sky beasts from the moon to the planets like that's what else really sells. Yeah. What things like flying horses did we not see this season with the 80 yard around? Let's see.

Well, there were some scenes that we never filmed. And I might, once the season ends in a couple of weeks, I might post some of those scenes on my website. Just for the hell of it. And look, even a day of filming is anywhere from 250 to $400,000. So, you know, if you.

If you eliminate five of those, you know, you saved a million and a half dollars or, you know, whatever it is. And so there are a few that and they're not they're not fatal cuts. You know, one of them, interestingly, was a scene that.

was not in my first draft of the first episode. Apple requested, Harry was not in the first episode. We were holding off Harry. And there was a flashback to about 400 years ago. Prior to the pilot, where Demerizel, well, Rache is still around helping Harry. And Demerizel comes into the Imperial Library and she basically says to Harry, i know what you're doing and give me a reason why i shouldn't expose you and so it was a really interesting scene in which it happens off screen now in which uh

They just allude to that I actually provided him with the data he needed. This was Harry's argument for why she should do that. And so is it interesting? Yes. Do we absolutely have to have it? Probably not. It was cool to see Rache again and things like that. But, you know, that was an example. There was a way crazy scene that would have been involved with a lot of visual effects.

That instead of, instead of Demersault just telling the Luminous that she brought down. the sky bridge there was another flashback scene going back to what would have been episode two where again race is with harry before harry died and they hear an alarm that there's an anomaly out on the uh out on the um the hull of the generation ship or whatever that the slow ship going to terminus and and harry and rache go out there in in um

in spacesuits and Demerizel standing without a spacesuit and her hair is floating zero G and they haven't left the orbit of Tranter and so that burning scar from the space of water falling is sort of tranters like that that's they can see that below and denverzell's talking about all the screams and stuff like that that was an amazing scene but there's no question a two million dollar scene wow that would have been awesome to see yes yeah but yeah you know and does it does it really hamper

the enjoyment of the i mean people were still blown away that she brought down the starbridge so that's fine oh yeah and that was something that i had agreed to to cut both those scenes i agreed to cut when i was still on the show

Well, you kind of alluded to that when they found out after you departed that it sounds like they didn't probably cut close to the $20 million that they're wanting. Not even close. Not even close. Not even close. Well, because they realized it was impossible. Right. You got to have a. Yeah. And there's some cost. You already got all this other stuff shot. Before I move on from the.

The whole production stuff. One last question is, is there any truth to the rumor that this is all a ruse to set up a second foundation writer's room and the showrunner's office to guide the first one? uh through some i was just making a psycho no no there are not there are not two rooms operating yeah yeah we can't tell them we're doing this because that would screw up the show writing um

I was wondering, because like one of the big things this season, because, you know, you kind of tiptoed around some of the things you didn't have the rights to in terms of laws of robotics and particular mentions of the characters names. And here it's a lot more explicit than I'd seen in between seasons that you had.

made essentially a personal appeal to the studio exec, the head of Fox that had the rights to do like the robot series and like, look, and he gave that to you. Is that conditional on your person? Like does the, does the new production have. rights to do that or is this like a personal favor it was a personal favor and it was

As expressed, then a one-time favor. Now, is it possible that they could make the same appeal? Make the same appeal. Okay. So that would be something, even if you wanted to do it, you'd have to go back and be like, okay, can I get it? This was a, look, I, the... A guy named Steve Asbel, who's the head of Fox, is a big science fiction fan and a big Asimov fan. And they're working on the sort of by robot books, doing a new version of that.

huge fan of the show just uh and i my producing partner and i made a movie with them last year the the prequel to the omen the first omen and so i was talking to him a lot and sometimes he would ask me about the show and i said hey it was we were sitting in a mix for the omen and i said you want to do me a favor and that so that's

I said, here's what I want to do. And he called up his business affairs and they there was a legal document that we're giving you this one time permission to utilize these words and these names. And that's just one of the things that. Because Hollywood is a community that sometimes you can pull off. I was really excited to hear the explicit connection made between her and our Danielle. Yeah.

One of the things that's hotly debated throughout the season is, you know, did Demerzel know about the Novacula? Was the Prime Radiant... logic bomb that Harry vault Harry gave her got her so twisted up that she was distracted from looking at the Cleons memories because she never really addresses it. He's like express surprise that he got away with it and she does. This kind of.

does her Demerzel noncommittal thing. Are we supposed to understand that this did take her by surprise or is it something that she was fine to let him mess around with and kind of lost track or what, what was the, I contend that it did take her by surprise. That being said. I do think she was incredibly distracted and having a complete, you know, AI meltdown throughout the season as per, you know. Her Cleons are scattered. Well, that, but as per all areas.

wishes. I mean, that was part of the design. But I also think that this Dusk is a wily guy, and he put a lot of thought into You know, how can I circumvent her? You know, well, how can I, over the course of decades, move funds over and build? She's not omniscient and she's not. I'm not sure if people are aware of this. She's not connected to the web. Right. You just described it as her, she's got a distributed conscious, but it's somehow air gas.

Yes. You can't plug into the galactic system. She has her eyes and her ears in terms of interface. Interesting.

Um, that is a couple of other things that, um, cause I, you know, we find out about Demerzel's kind of, um, exploring the possibility space. unconsciously, subconsciously, because if you actually said, hey, how could I subvert the will of the Cleons? She'd, I don't know, leak brain fluid out of her ears. But... It seems like you're telling a story that this started potentially 400 years ago when she went to Harry and says, well, I shouldn't stop this.

Like so that implies that like the last few steps we see her take where she's like, you know, well, do I give up the library for refuge or do I betray these people? This is just like the last few. semi-conscious step she's taken of a process that's been 400 years of like the probabilities and as the Cleons drift. And I guess how much of it was.

How much of it is her subconscious trying to figure out a way to get free? And how much was it the external factors that were messing up the Kleonite dynasty, that were subverting it, that were diluting it, that were corrupting it to where it stopped? fitting the image of the Kleonic Empire that she had to protect. What drill? This is going to sound like a bullshit answer, but it's both. A lot of times it is. The reason why it's both is I maintain it.

she would have tried to figure out ways to get out of her restraints even long before Harry, right? And she would have, because she wants to be free, she would have spent a lot of time trying to out. And so I think it's a combination of that. I think it's a combination of Harry and the foundation.

doing things, putting pressure on Empire so that it will fall apart faster. Doing things like... giving her this logic bomb of the prime radiant, but also some of it is just simply the center cannot hold and that, you know, she would agree that this is the system of the cloned emperors. is not something that can last forever. It's going to fall apart. Right. But she has no choice because that's for programming too. So would it have happened?

anyway without the foundation and the prime radian yes it might have taken a lot longer though that would have led it to a lot longer of a dark age for humanity um The other question I had is...

How much are we supposed to understand a brother dust behavior was that this is just a, you know, stock Cleon that is doing Cleon things and maneuvering and scheming and trying to keep, you know, his, his, his own self going. And how much of it was that? the genetic drift has led him to give you a little bit cuckoo because I couldn't help but notice how childish the him running through the palace and making these rhymes about his brothers and singing.

Was it was this him being is this represent him being like an ideal Cleon or is this showing the drift that the Cleons have experienced where he's ready to blow the whole thing up just to keep. I mean, he's pretty. 60 at this point how many years does he got left at the rule um what we were trying to establish is that you know Even though they're clones, each of them are individuals, right? And even though they're genetically, sensibly the same, there is starting to be some genetic drift.

The way they're raised is essentially the same. So ostensibly, initially, if you're a clone and you're raised in the same way, you shouldn't deviate that much because both nature and nurture has been taken care of. But, you know, once the genetic drift was entered into it, you know, even a 1% change over the course of centuries is going to start to deviate. further further and i would suggest that it's not simply that he's kook he's just different and and

By this point, all of them are starting to sort of rebel from their programming, if you will, as well. And so.

Again, that's another example of sort of an external condition that's, you know, causing it to be a sort of fly in the ointment that's kind of hastening to collapse. Right. Because both Dawn and Death... they have kind of gone rogue and dusk feels like he's the last guy holding it together speaking of dawn um a question that we had throughout like the middle part of the season is you know first of all wow dawn's not dead

His suit reclaimed enough resources to keep him alive. I wasn't expecting anyone to think he was dead. Yeah, well, I was on the wrong side of that wager. But I do think they were surprised by what happened to Day and Demerzel. Do you. So so then later on, they did the Amazon mentioned that his nanite nanite stopped responding 10 seconds after he got blown out of the the airlock. And that's the question is like, so.

Why didn't his nanites heal his legs? Why did they stop activating after was there? Are we are we supposed to notice that and file that information away for the future or? Yes. OK, so something. somebody pulled a switch that would have been hopefully i don't know it will be that that that will presumably be a season four okay all right um question about the vaults

Why did Vault Harry decide not to get involved in the mule situation? Was it because he didn't want to make a move that would jeopardize the larger plan? Was he a little... uh kind of hurt that he's you know being treated as the left hand and he's taking psychic damage being stuck in his own mausoleum um yeah why why did you know why didn't he initially take him out in episode eight

Yeah. Yeah. Two reasons. The first is by now locked away in the ball, knowing that he's a left hand, he's starting to feel not consequential. and not relevant anymore. And he's pissed off. And so he's very surprised when he doesn't know about the mule. And that puts him into a tizzy. And, you know, one could argue that he wants to know more about who the mule is. And he also believes that...

The mule is not what he appears to be. So until he, you know, he's trying to get control of the game board back again. So from his perspective, here's this crazy forceful guy that came in and just. completely upended empire and foundation and all of this and he had this blind spot to the guy and he knows enough to know that the guy there's more to the guy than it seems but he's

he just he wants to know more before he asks right uh i noticed the the vault has this happened before the vaults turned black I was wondering if that was... What was black in its inert state in season one? oh where is it is it black because i i thought it was more of like it was always been white but it gets like luminous and transparent and all that stuff okay okay all right it's black when it's inert and it's it's glass-like when it's awake

I guess, for lack of a better word. There's a few occasions this season, I think it was twice in one episode, where Demerzel asserted that I am an empire. Yeah. Is that is that giving away the game that she is you know that like?

Ultimately, the Cleons are acting or playing a part that they're supposed to play, but she is going to step in and make the real decisions to continue to think. What did she mean by that? Yeah, well, there was, I believe the... episode title of season two episode eight is called the last empress if i'm right and so what we were basically saying and what dawn the dawn of that season says is

i think she's a real power behind empire and so that's just her speaking a lot saying out loud you know what's always been on the inside

it seems like there's a lot of stuff that was set up in like season one that paid off in season three. And Jim and I were wondering, um, How much did anything change? Because the one thing in particular is the question that Harry gave, like what comes after the fall of the empire? And he says darkness. And then we have literally brother.

darkness uh you know or i guess on the cusp of your brother dark is blowing the whole thing up did was that intentional from the beginning or is that like a grace note you found in the process that was intentional from the beginning um

I think the biggest changes are that there were some plot elements that were pulled. So where we get to with Kale, I think initially it was going to be... maybe season four and I decided to pull that forward because one of the things you realize is as you're doing a show like this is that you know you're creating it in a vacuum and then the season comes out and you rewatch it as much as you can as an audience member. And so I try to put myself in the position of, were I an audience member?

How long would I be okay not answering certain questions? When would I start to roll my eyes? When would I? You're always guessing. And so you start to say, maybe it's time to pull this forward. And one of the things that I also...

learned from Chris Nolan was, you know, better to burn a good idea now and then hope that you'll come up with something better, you know, as time goes on. So definitely some things from season four that that happened in season three. And there were, you know, originally Salver wasn't going to die until the end of season three. And that's an event that also was brought forward. No, sir, is a one-off disconnected mention of a zygote of hers.

Seems like that might be a way to punt a salver-like character to the future. I was wondering because there's a lot of questions we had about Dusk's plan. First of all...

I imagine as you filmed it, all that stuff, were you involved with all of the just the fountains of gore, the curtains of intestines? Were you watching the boys? and some of the other uh like peacemaker and you're like i want i want to throw my hat what's funny is your waterfalls of gore you're talking about the contacts yeah yeah what's funny is originally uh

Roxanne Dawson, who directed that episode, they had a plan. I think they were going to film the destruction of the clone tanks over the course of like four or five days, which is a lot. A lot of time for relatively short screen time. And the studio wanted to cut that down to one day. And I said, okay, there's stunts. There's things exploding. That's too much. But even I was like, five days is a lot. Do we really need five days? Now look.

There's water, there's things blowing up. So I think we compromised and filmed that sequence over the course of two and a half days. And look, it's... It's a big deal because really that more than anything marks the end of the empire.

Right. And that's because that's the first thing I thought when I was watching the episode. When Empire goes up to the tanks, I'm like, oh, he's going to try to smash one of these. But then you pan up and you see the cliffs. I'm like, oh. And the irony is that act is really what frees Demersault. right there is no more dynasty to preserve what happens a few minutes after is is the iron right you know right um

Because he's thought of everything. So that's a question that me and Jim had is like. Have the tanks always been rigged to sequentially blow with the push of a button and do all the empires have that or is that something like another Novacula? Yeah, that's something we're put into place and you know

I mean, I suppose people could say, well, how could he have done that? But, you know, hopefully. Well, I mean, he did. He made a black hole. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. And it shows how and I just wonder, like. It feels like Demersel, I know she can't because she's a machine. She ripped her face off and said, I'm a machine. I can't I can't be like, you know, people and be like, well, we'll see.

But like, it does seem like there was a lot of I don't know what a robot would think of these these potentials, these percentage percentage of certainty over actions that had to be ticking over. And some of her taking the eye off the ball had to be giving her space for that.

sure the workout you know it's like why yeah like it's like it might not be something that she's even kind but like you know why pull on that thread you know let dusk have his fun and it'll distract him it'll keep him from pissing off day and um But yeah, that was, I just couldn't, the chunks, the chunks of Cleon all over the place was just seeing him washing out and all that.

Speaking of the genetic dynasty blowing up, I thought sure that we would see some payoff from Sareth and Dawn running away. Like there'd be, you know, we'd see a, maybe there was a,

That possibility is gone now, I assume, that the Cloud Dominion has been destroyed. Not necessarily. That was the mothership of the Cloud Dominion. And they had lots of different planetesimals and things like that. But there are absolutely members of the cloud domain still running around. Although a lot of people thought that...

that the dawn that escaped with Sereth at the end of season two would definitely come back in season three. I thought that was too soon. I was going to implement later in season four, season five. Yeah.

But you have another question. You know, we've got all these like roadmaps and points to connect to other seasons. But you've also said that, you know, the new team has the ability to chart their own course. How much of your layout to the end of season four

Do those people have, if any, did you have like a, you know, I know you said like a four or five page statement beginning each season, but did you have something for season four, season five, the success? Is there something they could follow or? are they going to have to just be like us and watch the show and be like well i noticed this and i noticed that and so i don't and i know i don't know if they refer to this somewhere there's a document

It's only like two pages long laying out the eight seasons, right? So it's like a paragraph per season. Okay. And so they could have had access to that. they didn't have i hadn't done my season four write-up yet because typically do that uh you know when production wraps before we start the room for the next season so that five or six page document i hadn't done yet i might have talked about some of the ideas um but most of well

The writers and directors that I was working with aren't working on season four. Oh, so it's more than just, you know, it's gone. Yeah, and the production designer and the visual effects supervisor, they... working on season four either. So there aren't many people who were in season four that worked on the show prior. I mean, some of that below the line crew, you know.

gaffers and people like that and props makers would still be on right um callie and the other robot that's on the moon discussed you know being surprised that uh or they express his name is asterion okay it's name is asterion it's name is dear did did uh

they said that she they didn't think she's capable of performing clasp and was that a reference to the fact that she's been air gapped is that a reference to the fact but is that something that cleon did to her and changed his heart we saw that in season two So I know you put into chips. That's what that chip, but that was one of the things that happened when that chip was installed. Okay.

I have a couple of questions that are like pointing to the future and kind of spoilery. I want to, number one, alert the listeners that if you're not a reader or, you know, you don't want any hints to the future, that maybe now is the time to turn off the interview. But I did want to throw some things out for my edification because I.

most seasons I've had the general shape of the foundation in my mind, you know, and like where, and I could see where, Oh, I see he's changing this. He changes going for that. And. But I've never like, you know, I there's a lot of things were big mysteries in the first two seasons. This season, as soon as I saw, you know, introduced the beta and Torrin and, you know, Evelyn Miz and Magnifico. I'm like, oh, I know exactly.

I know exactly where this is going. And ironically, I think this season tracks more with the books than the prior seasons. But there's a reason for that also, because the Mule novelette... by asimov is a proper it's a much more cohesive yeah yeah like so yeah and i also think he got better as a writer Of course. It was an easier prospect in terms of adapting. We'll be right back with more Bald Move after this brief pause.

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I was like in the last episode, I was waiting for a particular reveal of the mules identity that went to a complete right angle at what I was expecting. To the extent that I haven't even said it publicly because something I've learned in covering other shows is just because something doesn't turn out the way you think it's going through this season, they might be saving that to go somewhere to another season. But...

I guess. Clearly a mule's not over, you know, because what we saw was Gale had a big old blast of light and then tellingly she alone flees from the station and gets away. But beta still out. Can you talk about the decision to do the switcheroo from the mules identity in the book versus the mules identity in the show? And when did you arrive at, I guess, beta being the.

the target of the subterfuge. So when I got back in high school, I think the first time I read the original trilogy, I read it, I really, that was... a section that i really enjoyed as did many people but i wasn't that surprised even then by the reveal that magnifico was the mule in the book because

They talk about this big baddie that if he looks at you, you die and this sort of warlord. They talk about him, but you never see him on screen. So I thought that character wasn't that. that effective as a red herring because you never see them. So and I was, you know, even as a high schooler going through all the who I thought there would be a twist. And so I was going through the candidates and I thought, well, Magnifico is kind of like the obvious one, right? But then I thought about, well,

To what degree, if we kept that, to what degree would audiences be surprised by that? So the first thing I said we need to do is we need to build up.

the straw dog the red herring the warlord of colgan that has to be a character that we see on screen right and and obviously book readers would know he's not necessarily the guy and And non-book readers, I think, at least halfway through the season, would start to expect there's more than meets the eye with that character, too, because I think audiences are more sophisticated now with a show like this.

yeah and then they introduce his mysterious backstory and then harry comments i'm not sure if it's all true so like we're primed to see and like i said i was all going down the tracks and then we served the debate i thought i just i thought it would be more surprising to, well, obviously book readers and non-book readers. And one of the things, and it's funny because I was talking about this with Asimam's Daughter and, you know, there aren't even any female characters really in the first novel.

I think as Love got older, he became a bit more sophisticated. I don't think it ever would have occurred to anyone writing in the 50s or 60s to make the villain a woman. Right? And I thought, even though we've come a long way, I bet you the audience won't see it coming if Beta's the villain. Because...

She appears, she starts off as very sort of, in fact, in the second episode, when they first appear, a lot of people are like, oh, I don't like her. She's too, they feel like they're from another show. right they're influencers and i was like that's great because and it's all employed she's playing on our a lot of societies um i think You know, we don't give women enough credit and they're not duplicitous enough or they're not this or they're not that. And.

I just think it's because we still largely live in a paternalistic world. I just thought it would be even more surprising when that turns out to be the case. And even more devilish because she was smart enough to know. that she needed a cliche warlord to be her distraction, you know, to draw the heat. And so that some people were like, oh, he's almost too cliche. And I was like, that was the point. That was the point. Did...

Right. I want to say, obviously, we're not done with the mule because, you know, we're still looking. We're not we were in the library. We did. There's no ergo sphere of a black hole involved. So there's still some some stuff to lay down there. um i was kind of blown away by the very end where you know because a lot of people had sent in like hey the the the surface that you go that cali took

an old Harry through the surface looks kind of lunar. And I was like, OK, whatever. But it turns out, no, they are actually on Luna or a statue satellite at the end. Yes. And I'm I'm assuming that she is a robot. and that obviously the Metal Man is a non-human form robot. Correct. Is that Harry? I can't say. You can't say? Okay.

but there's a couple possible yeah we the the original plan and i don't know you know what's going to happen to you know i gonna be a fourth season but i don't know if there will be any seasons beyond who knows but the original plan um almost the entire

season six was going to take place on earth and the moon uh because it was you know we talk about like that the location of earth has actually been hidden redacted uh for a whole variety of reasons and and the robots that survived the purge have been existing inside the moon ever since kind of

watching and waiting and one of the things that we were going to get into is that there's there's actually two factions right uh there's sort of one not so into the idea of humans and one possibly willing to work with humans. They even allude, that's what the robot civil war is over. It's like how, you know, what do we do with these people? So I think I see where you're laying the tracks there in season five and six. My partner, Jim, who hasn't read anything beyond the first book, want to know.

So what are we supposed to think about the state of Earth? Is it entirely controlled by robots? Are they hiding out in the moon? They're in the moon and they're not publicly out and about. Okay. So even an earthling, if there was any alive. No, no, no. The earthlings, I mean, again, the state of earth is very, earth is a fucked up.

radioactive there are still humans on it but it's um very fallout yeah even more 10 000 more years of fallout even more fallout it's been reduced to like medieval society All right. And also...

Are we I imagine we're supposed to keep something of a light on for Demerzel because I couldn't help but notice her final state was very suspiciously brazen head ish. You know, and I've seen a brazen head come back and talk to another robot before. So we still preserve your cranium. That's got to be important, right? Can't say.

I will say some of those characters are dead. Like real dead. All right. Real dead. That's why it was interesting because I saw some people commenting like, oh, Dawn's not going to die because plot armor. And I was thinking, well. We've got some even bigger characters, presumably with plot armor. Some of those characters are for real dead.

i'm about we're about out of time and i'm about out of questions anyway and i was wondering is there anything that you kind of wanted to to say to put a bow on this six-year journey you've taken with this ip um and then uh it's it's ended all too soon is there any anything that you have to say to kind of like because i put a bow on it um i always

One of my favorite books is a book called The Book of the New Son by Gene Wolfe. And when he was writing the book, he said it was his intention to write something that could be read multiple times at every time. you know, readers would get something more out of it. And so my goal with Foundation was to create something that was entertaining, but dense enough and sort of intricately plotted enough that it would reward.

multiple viewings, which I think it does. I mean, I heard people prior to season three, went back and watched the first two seasons. And so I'm really grateful that a show of sort of complexity and and ambition has found an audience that

You know, and I'll take the deans too, but they just found an audience that largely has embraced it and really gone down these interesting rabbit holes, a lot planned, some not planned, you know, in terms of what people are talking about or, oh, that's interesting. And I'm grateful that this sort of cottage industry of of podcasts like one has sprung up around it. And so just as a creator.

which is one of the reasons I decided to do the wrap up is, you know, I'm a fan and I geek out on all these things that aren't my shows. And. So it's very gratifying to create something that things like that or like this are what make it worth it for me. Right. Not just that the because everyone does. You guys don't always agree with it. that I've made, but but it's it's fun. And that's, you know, aside from making money, that's the primary reason why I do what I do.

yeah it's just too bad i think this is the first season where i didn't have like one big problem you know because i really enjoyed the other seasons but i'm like ah and this is the first one and it's like i can't and now it's uh you know what i will say it's the exit part of that is a factor of season Season one was a combination of three things. I think I still really am very proud of season one. I think the seasons get progressively better as you go along.

So much more foundation. No pun intended. Well, season one was a combination of. It was a much harder lift in terms of adapting and getting all that exposition out. And, you know, because the first book is. just a series of sort of disconnected short stories. So that was just a harder adaptation. I was finding my footing, trying to figure out what we could do and what we couldn't do. And then I had a lot of worried.

executives all around me that were sort of second guessing me and so i still and i'm not going to blame some of the issues all on their feet but i'm just saying there were a lot of circumstances that i think led to maybe being not quite as good. And then season two, I was given even more creative control because everyone was happy with it.

We were starting to get into some storylines and characters like Bell Rios and whatnot that I think were a little easier to adapt. And we were finding our footing. I was starting to realize, okay, we're good at writing these scenes, these kinds of scenes. I got to know our actors. They're capable of doing X, Y, or Z. Lee was funny, so we wrote some more darkly comedic bits for him. So it's a combination. And by season three...

Then we hit an even more adaptable work in terms of the mule. And I had even more creative freedom and even a better understanding of what we're capable of and not capable of. And so I think that's why the seasons get progressively better. The other, the last thing I will say is people are, one of the reasons why I think season three is so good is we're paying off. There's a lot of setup in the first two seasons and now we're paying it all.

So it's just more satisfying. And like I said, I sympathize for you getting to the quote-unquote good part and then it's kind of ripped away from you. Ceremoniously, unceremoniously, it's got to sting. It does, but it... it wasn't ripped really was ultimately my decision, you know? Right. So.

Do you have, I know you've been working on a bunch of stuff. I was delighted with Murderbot that you're executive producing on Apple. Maybe we can get a ship between Murderbot and Demerzel. Yeah, Murderbot's great. And Murderbot, after being in such a complicated world of foundations, it's sort of nice to do something that is smaller and funnier and the Whites Brothers.

But still, it does go something about the human condition. Oh, no question. I'm not, I'm not, I love Motherbot. I'm delighted with it.

It's a half hour comedy. Do you have anything else that you're excited about that's coming down to Pike or around the corner that you want the fans to know about? Yeah, I have a new show that we are just... about to close my deal on that if we're even a week later I could say something that is also science fiction very different kind of science fiction and also also based on a book that is about to be published uh and is

In some ways, even harder to adapt the foundation, but that's why I'm excited about it. It's insane. It's insane. Where's the best place to find if they want to follow David? What's the best place? As soon as that deal is closed a week or two. Well, I was just going to say this is actually not going to hit the light of day because we're talking a week or two before the last episode comes out. So I was thinking I might just monitor. Is it David Goyer or David?

david i might monitor that so i can give a live update here if if the project has come to fruition yeah i'm excited that's coming down the pike that's very cool um uh i'm I'm closing a deal to write two different features. One I'm producing, one I'm not. Again, I'm literally in negotiations on three different things right now. again i can let you know uh i can send you an email when those things come out and then please my partner and i are uh

We're very close to getting a green light on a remake of The Blob with Warner Brothers. All right. That David Bruckner, who directed Night House for us and the reboot of Hellraiser, and he wrote the script. It's amazing. It all takes place in one day and it's really funny and terrifying. Yeah, I bet there's some squirm-inducing special effects going on there. We're off to cast right now.

So keep your ears to the David Esquire ground. I'll be checking out that. David said he would give me the high sign if anything comes out. I'm super surprised that we're talking at the end of this season because I didn't seem like I was going to, but I am delighted that it ended up happening this way. Thank you so much for being generous with your time and, you know, being a part of the community.

and look forward to what you do next. Well, thank you. And I love the community and all the communities that spring up around these shows. And, you know, it's very gratifying taking part in it. So thank you. All right. We'll see what goes on in season four. But again, thanks, David. All right. Once again, thank you to David Goyer. Check out his website, davidsgoyer.com.

uh for the latest he sounds like he's got some big stuff he's excited to announce uh just just uh time is a character in this podcast as well as foundation and uh hadn't elapsed enough to get that news but uh incredibly Happy that he made the decision to come on. Always a good time. Talk to him. I think we got some real interesting, good information, some eye popping information. And unfortunately.

Not a lot of great reassuring feelings for next season. It's going to be, it's kind of like its own deal and we'll see how it goes. Thank you for listening. We'll be back with your feedback and a complete wrap up of season three. We can share hopes and fears for season four. And just talk about the state of foundation here in 2025 next week on our fantastic season three wrap up podcast. Until then, I'm your host, Aaron. Jim is actually out sick. I should have mentioned that. Jim.

Jim got sick. He killed him to not be able to talk to Mr. Goyer and to not be doing this episode, but that's the breaks. Foundation at BaldMove.com if you'd like to send us feedback for the wrap-up episode. And if you'd like to support us in what we're doing here, all the science fiction coverage we do, it's super easy. Go to support.baldmove.com, get ad-free feeds.

Extra bonus audio and visual content and much more. Foundation of BaldMove.com. I'm Eris Dayron. I'll see you next week. Respect and enjoy the podcast.