Guy: [00:00:00] Hey, I am Guy Powell, and welcome to the next episode of the Backstory on the Shroud of Turin. And if you haven't already done so, please visit guy powell.com and sign up for more episodes. I am the author of the book, the Only Witness, a Christian historical fiction tracing a possible history of the shroud over the last two millennia.
Today we're speaking with Larry s Staley, and he is a shroud researcher, biblical scholar, and, uh, also an author. And he's, uh, got a very recent book. So, uh, let me just tell you a little bit about him. So, uh, as I mentioned, he's a longtime, uh, researcher, written a bunch of different papers on biblical references to the shroud in the Bible and elsewhere.
He'll be speaking at the upcoming Shroud conference taking place in St. Louis, and that's gonna be, uh, at the end of July, July 30th [00:01:00] to August 3rd. And of course, he has a new book that just launched just in the last few days and it's called A Divine Testimony for the Resurrection. And, uh, definitely looking forward to hearing more about it and reading about it.
And so, Larry, welcome. So good to have you.
Larry: Well, thank you, uh, guy. Uh, it is so good to be with you. I'm excited to, uh, present some. Uh, some of what the Lord has shown me concerning the, the holy shroud in the biblical text. I think it's gonna be an exciting, uh, program for your listeners. And, and thank you for inviting me.
Guy: Absolutely. So, uh, we're gonna talk about, uh, a recent paper that you wrote. It's called The Sign of Jonah. But before we do that, why don't you tell us a little bit about your book and, uh, what that's all about.
Larry: Well, a, as you've alluded to, I've, uh, spent oh six or seven years of intense study on the biblical text, several passages that have puzzled theologians, bible scholars for first centuries, where we just don't really know this [00:02:00] solution to these texts.
And we're gonna look at one, possibly two of those passages, one of them being the, the sign of Jonah. And there's eight, maybe 10 different. Proposed explanations for what that sign was that you can look to the critical commentaries, but there's no consensus. And all of those proposed solutions have problems, and I believe that the solution is found in the image on the shroud.
Guy: Yeah. And, and that, uh, that's, that does make a lot of sense. And, uh, I've read, uh, your paper. Yeah, well, a couple of your papers, but certainly, uh, the more recent one, the sign of Jonah, and, uh, kind of a very interesting, so let's dig right in. Uh, it's a, you know, Jonah is a topic, my grandson is named Jonah, and, uh, he doesn't quite understand the story yet of the whale, but we're gonna, or of the Leviathan.
But we're gonna, we're gonna definitely get to that and, uh, with him, but, so tell us a little bit about your paper, the, the sign of Jonah, and then why you believe [00:03:00] the image on the shroud is the sign of Jonah.
Larry: Yeah, and I think the. The upshot of this will be that Matthew was aware of what we call the shroud of turn today, that it actually existed in his own day.
I think that's what the, my Exogen work will, will help to demonstrate that we don't just have to rely on science and historical artifacts, but actually the Bible testifies to this linen cloth actually being the authentic cloth of Christ. So what really got me interested in these texts was a comment. By John Calvin.
He wrote a treatise on relics and was, um, uh, wasn't favorable towards this lenn shroud. And he gave it a couple of reasons why he did not think it was authentic. And one was surely the biblical writers, the, the four gospels would've made mention of this image if it was genuine. And I thought that's, that sounds like a good argument.
It seemed like a formable challenge. And so I think he. Calvin didn't, um, consider a [00:04:00] hypothesis such that there's a, there's a reason why the gospel writers may have intentionally not made reference to the image in an explicit way, and that is because of persecution. Jesus said, don't give that which is holy to the dogs.
Don't cast your pearls before swine, unless they trample them under foot turn and tear you to pieces. What would've been holier to the early Christians than this burial shroud of the Lord stained with his precious redeeming blood. And so we have the warning from Christ himself not to, to be careful.
Don't give your pearls to swine, to, um, and so to keep, to safeguard the shroud. It may be that. Intentionally, the canonical writers did not make explicit mention of this image. Must it be, uh, hunted down and maybe confiscated and harmed by enemies? So that's my, uh, hypothesis, [00:05:00] is that any reference to it is done in a cryptic, hidden, or veiled manner.
And one of these is the, the sign of Jonah. So we have this typological metaphor that's actually mentioned twice in the first Gospel chapter 12. Verses 38 and following, and then four chapters later, chapter 16 verses one through four. And as an exigent, there's questions I will I ask myself such as, well, why does he mention it a second time?
What purpose does that serve? And it is not readily apparent why he brings it up again. Four chapters later, but we wanna focus primarily on the, uh, the first reference in chapter 12. And regarding John Calvin's statement, there came to be in the early church, what, what came to be known as the discipline of the secret between these two passages.
Jesus talks about the mysteries of the kingdom of God and how they weren't given to the common people, but he says to, I'm explaining these mysteries of the [00:06:00] parables to you, but they're not given to the common person and reasons. He said their hearts are hardened. And, and so I think that, uh, the discipline of the secret may very well have.
Applied to, uh, the image on the shroud. Alright, so what we have, I believe, are four canonical writers, Matthew, Paul, John, and the, the writer of Hebrews that all have at least one hidden reference, a cryptic reference. It, it's really quite strong in each of them. And so we wanna focus on this, on the sign of Jonah.
So in the literary context, Jesus has just performed two spectacular miracles. He's first cured a man with a withered hand, but because he did it on the Sabbath, the scribes, the Pharisees take issue with it. It can't be from God 'cause it was done on the wrong day. And then he doesn't an exorcism and they say, well, no, that can't be from God because, uh, well, you did this by the power of Satan.
So [00:07:00] Jesus is really, uh, quite perturbed at this. He calls them evil. The evil generation. He calls them, uh, serpents, serpents of the devil as I recall. Uh, brutal, brutal vipers. That's what it is. And then they, some scribes and Pharisees then right after this, come and say, we want to see a sign from you teacher.
And Jesus gives this response. Well, no sign will be given to this evil and the wicked generation except the sign of Jonah. And as Jonah was in the valley of the Steam monster for three days and three nights, so the son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. And then he mentions how the men of Nineveh and the Queen of the South will rise up at the judgment and condemn this.
Evil and wicked generation because something greater now is here. And they repented when they were, uh, like Nineveh. When Jonah went to Nineveh and preached the, a message of repentance, they heated that message and turned from their [00:08:00] sins. So that's basically the, the context that we have there. And so first I think I, I, we need to talk about what is a sign, a semi, and it's an outward distinguishing mark.
In the Old Testament, you've got the mark of cane, or you've got the mark of circumcision, you've got the mark in the sky, the rainbow that God gave subsequent to the flood as, as his signature mark about the flood. His promise never to destroy the world again, uh, by water. So it's an outward distinguishing mark that strikes the eye.
That's what usually a sign is. It's the kiss of Jonah, I mean, I'm sorry, the kiss of Judas when he led the, uh, the soldiers to arrest Jesus and identify who, who the Lord was. It's the star Bethlehem. It's the burning bush. It's an outward distinguishing mark and antiquity. A soldier would put a mark on his shield and that would [00:09:00] distinguish it from the shield of other soldiers.
Or an admiral on a ship might have a flag, and that was his outward distinguishing mark. That was his ship. So. A sign is, uh, usually an outward distinguishing mark of some kind. And of course it's interesting that on the shrouded term we have all these marks, these, uh, marks urging the marks of the, uh, the particular wounds of crucifixion and, and the abrasions on the scalp.
And so, uh, certainly this image, this ghostly image could be referred to as a sign, as an outward distinguishing. Mark strikes the eye. It certainly seems to qualify. In that regard, that very definition of a sign. So we have a number of proposed solutions, explanations for this. Some say, well, it's John the Baptist.
Some say, well, it was Peter. His name is Simon Bar Jonah, son of Jonah. Uh, maybe it's his confession. Dar at the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Some will say, what's the dove that [00:10:00] came upon Jesus at his baptism? Jonah means a Dove Simon Bar Jonas. But all of these have problems in particular, they do not deal with the timeline three days and three nights now.
Some nights people get tripped up on this. They take it literally, but it's an idiomatic expression. We would say on the third day, he was raised, he'd been in the tomb three days and three nights. Any part of a day or night was just spoken of Idiomatically as a day. A full day. We know they were partial that Matthew himself only has Jesus in the tomb for two full nights, but I automatically could be spoken of as three days and three nights.
And that timeline comes directly from the story of Jonah from the Book of Jonah, as I recall, chapter two verse one. So those are some proposed solutions that they all have a, have a problem. But I would suggest a guy that the, the solution really isn't that difficult if we ask the right question on another [00:11:00] podcast, a year or two ago, uh, a well-known professor, if I said his name, you would, uh, people would recognize him.
He is a, he is a, he's a world expert on, uh, on the resurrection, and he was invited to discuss one of my papers with me. Well, this one, I think it was. Which is, um, recently re revised, but he, he took a look at the, uh, uh, at this text in Matthew chapter 12. He said, well, there's nothing there about a shroud, and I'm not an ex, that's not really my expertise.
So a wonderful professor, wonderful gentleman, but I would suggest, yeah, explicitly, there's nothing there about a shroud, but cryptically, I believe there is. And our best clue is the. Explanation that Jesus left us as Jonah was in the belly of the sea monster for three days and three nights. So the son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.
And so I, I would ask your listeners to, uh, think about a question. When and where was Jesus during [00:12:00] those three days and three nights? When and where was Jesus? I think most people would say, well, he was in the tomb. I think that would be the common, his body was in a tomb. We could, you know, debate well had he gone down to Hades and rescued, uh, when did that take place?
But basically this in the heart of the earth as a metaphor for death. And so he was in captivity within the, within the tomb, just as a Jonah was in captivity. But I would, I would respond that if your answer to this question, when and where was Jesus during those three days and three nights. When he was in the heart of the earth.
I think that's the best question we can ask e energetically.
Guy: Mm.
Larry: If your answer is he was in the tomb, I would say, yes, that's truthful, but it's incorrect. That's not the correct answer. And the reason I say that is because that would be like saying Jonah was in the ocean during those three days and three nights.
Now that's what that's truthful. He was in the ocean, [00:13:00] but Jesus did not say as Jonah was in the ocean. He said as Jonah was in the belly of the sea monster. So when we look at it that way, we understand that there's really a twofold captivity. And you can think of two concentric circles. There's a smaller circle within a larger circle.
There's a, there's a small captivity within a larger captivity. And so typological, and that's what this is, it's a typological metaphor. There's a, there's parallels to the Ministry of Christ and the ministry of Jonah both sent. With a mission of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus said, I came to seek and to save that which was lost.
Jonah was sent to Nineveh to rescue the loss, and they both experienced a twofold captivity. So if, if we're going to talk about typology, which is what this text involves, there's a twofold captivity and, and it parallels Jesus. He the heart of the earth for Jesus is the [00:14:00] burial shroud. He's. Wrapped like a prisoner in this burial shroud as Jonah was confined to the belly of the sea monster.
And Jonah is also within the larger ocean, and Jesus is in the tomb. So technologically there is this perfect meshing of Jesus being in the shroud and Jonah being in the belly of the sea. Monster. They're both within a larger confinement and as Jesus is rescued from the shroud and the tomb. So Jon released from the sea monster and the ocean, isn't it?
Uh, exciting that and wonderful that, uh, and, uh, challenging forest here, that at the very time and place that Jesus speaks of a sign that will appear in the future regarding his three days and three nights. In the burial shroud that we have this burial [00:15:00] shroud with a image on it of a crucified man. And, and so I think it, it meshes perfectly their timeline.
They have a divine appointed mission to call sinners to repentance. They're held captive within the inner of two compartments, and they're both rescued by the hand of gun.
Guy: Yeah. Yeah.
Larry: So to me it, it, it just, it's the best, most plausible solution to, uh, any others that have come along. And I think it shows an awareness.
'cause here's what I would suggest too. Uh, and I tend to just keep talking. I'm sorry. You probably want to ask questions, but I, I think it's important to, um, to note that Matthew must have been aware of the shroud's existence that is. Matthew was aware of the solution to this riddle today. You read the commentaries and they'll say, well, this is a puzzle.
They'll say, this is a, this is a riddle. Uh, one recent, um, article, an in-depth article on the, on the shroud of Turrin. [00:16:00] See if I've got that. He called it. Yeah. John, John, Chris in the fourth century said, it's a dark saying.
Guy: Yeah. Yeah. And
Larry: uh, one of the critical comment, critical commentary says we're, we are.
Thus reduced to making educated guesses.
Guy: Yeah,
Larry: we, we,
Guy: yeah. But I think. But, but your point though, of the three days, the time, you know, and that differentiating that from any of the other possible references, uh, that you mentioned, you know, the three days is just so specific and it's so specific as to the Friday.
You know, yes. Being in the tomb and on the Sunday coming out of the tomb, um, you know, it really does, uh, the pa that parallel I think is probably the strongest. And then I think to your point as well, is, uh, in Matthew, you know, why would he say it and why did he say it twice? And why did you know Jesus reference it?
Uh, if he didn't already know what the future was gonna be? He knew he was gonna be three days and three nights in the, [00:17:00] in the belly of the beast, so to speak, in the belly of the, in the belly of the shroud, inside of the tomb.
Larry: Yeah, I think it's amazing. We have the exactly when and where Jesus said a sign would was promised and, and we have this image then coming about.
Mm, and, and I wanted, what I wanted to say was that Matthew would never have recorded this typological metaphor and done so twice. If he was not aware of the solution. Yeah, we, we think Matthew was written decades, some think the eighties, the nineties, but maybe as early as the sixties, but we're still talking about 30 years after the cross.
How is it that he would write about this if it was still a puzzle or a riddle or some would say that a false prophecy? It never came about. Only if Matthew understood the meaning of it. Mm-hmm. Would he have included it? It wasn't a false, uh, prophecy. It actually came about, and, and Matthew knew what it was, but he spoke of it in a cryptic, hidden way.
Now, uh, we need to go [00:18:00] further because, um, we, the, the way sign is used in the, in the, uh, fourth gospel. And the way it's used here is quite different. And so I think we need to touch upon that if we, if we could.
Guy: Hmm. Let me, uh, let me just go back to one thing though that you said there, and, uh, you know, one of the things that I, uh, like and to.
You know, you have the experiences of the, uh, disciples with Jesus, and then you have this incredible experience of the resurrection. And, uh, and so when I think about, you know, how could I remember exactly what happened if I were Mark, or you know, any of the writers, uh, how could I remember exactly what happened, you know, 30 years ago when I'm gonna start to write it down?
And I think about, uh, and, you know, and a question to everybody is where were you when the World Trade Centers were attacked? And I can describe that explicitly. It's so [00:19:00] vivid in my mind. I know exactly where I was. I knew, I know exactly seeing the smoke coming out of the towers, and I can describe that.
If I had to write it down, I know exactly what happened. I. It's already 20 years. 20 what? 24 years since then. And so here you have, uh, you know, mark and Matthew and Well, and all the gospel writers, 30 years later, 40 years later, they are able to write that Exactly. Because they experienced it, you know, firsthand.
How could you, you know, the impression that you, that, that made on your mind? Not to mention the fact that of course it's God breathed, but. The impression that Jesus being with you on your mind, uh, is gonna last for the rest of your life. And so then for them to be able to talk about something very specific and then to be able to say, you know, in, in this case, you know, the sign of Jonah, uh, being in the, uh, you know, the belly of the beast, or you know, Jesus, you know, being in the tomb for three days, that's something that they're gonna be able to write about and talk [00:20:00] about forever.
That's just the way, you know, that's just the way our mind works.
Larry: Yeah, I, I think that's an excellent point. I can remember where I was when JFK was assassinated. I was in the fourth grade, but, you know,
Guy: yeah.
Larry: There's no special moments in your life that you just don't forget, you know, right. Where you were and
Guy: yeah.
I don't talk about that one because it gives away my age. I. Yeah, I,
Larry: so I,
Guy: yeah. So let, let's get back to your story
Larry: o okay. Okay. So we talked about the definition of a sign being an outward distinguishing mark, but it's very important that we consider how this sign served Matthew. 'cause it serves his purposes differently than how, for example, John.
We will speak of the shroud in his first epistle or in the gospel when he refers to signs. Sign in The gospel of John is for faith. It's it's evidence for faith. These signs were written that you might [00:21:00] believe that he is the Christ, the Son of the living gut, and I would suggest that's not the purpose of which this sign of Jonah serves within this.
In this, in this, in this passage. So, so I wanna touch on that for just a moment now. It's not a sign for faith here, and the clue is that we have two witnesses that are mentioned about testifying against this evil and wicked generation that will crucify their Messiah in the passage he speaks of the men of Nineveh.
And the Queen of the South will stand up at the judgment and condemn this evil and wicked generation because if they had the privileges and of, of what they had witnessed in Christ's ministry, they didn't have as much and they repented. This evil, wicked generation has have no excuse for their, the way they treated their Messiah.
So the question becomes then, okay, what purpose does this serve? Or how does it [00:22:00] relate to the sign of Jonah? And, and what I would suggest is that the, the sign of Jonah in this uh, passage is the Lord's witness his testimony against this evil and wicked. Uh, generation. The Old Testament, it talks about how a crime meet the testimony of two or three witnesses, that no single witness, uh, is enough to convict someone.
So the sign of Jonas is a sign that is God's own witness against this evil and wicked generation. The two witnesses that are mentioned in the text serve in support of God's own witness so it doesn't stand alone. So we've got three witnesses this way, so it's not given as a sign for faith as we might use it today.
It's a great apologetic. It's [00:23:00] strengthened my faith. I, I, the Lord brought an atheist into my life and he's now in the church band. He does the drums and it was the shroud that brought him. Uh, to faith him and his wife. Hmm. So it's a great apologetic and there's places we can go, particularly in the rights of John to support that.
But here in Matthew, it's not a sign for faith. It's a sign of judgment. A sign of a witness, a. It served as a witness, God's own witness against this evil and wicked generation. 'cause when you see the ghostly image on the shroud, you wanna say, well, wow, this is, who is this? And what crime did he commit? And he underwent such torture.
Was he guilty of this capital offense? Whatever it was. And when we, we think about, well, this was Jesus, these unique wounds like the. Abrasions on the head. There's only one person in history re recorded that we know of has all these particular, uh, marks of crucifixion and scouring. And so we know he was [00:24:00] tortured like this unjustly.
And so this image then is God's own testimony towards that, his witness against that evil and wicked generation. You see in Israelite history, there are a number of occasions when an object served as a witness. Against the people turning away from the covenant. The arc of the covenant is actually called the witnesses, the box of witnesses.
And so inside you had the tablets of stone, the ma jar of manna and Aaron's rod that butted. And these all served as witnesses regarding God's covenant, how he was faithful and loving to them and provided them with food, but also witnesses against them when they. Would turn from the covenant. And I think it's fascinating if when a person considers the similar typology between Aaron's rod that butted and the Barry Shroud of Christ, Aaron's [00:25:00] rod, when you go back to the book of numbers, it was first used in the Exodus in in the miraculous plagues.
It played a role there, but as they wanted in the wilderness, there came a time when the high priesthood of Aaron was challenged by. Cora and other leaders of the, of the 12 tribes, and they questioned the authority of Moses and Aaron, and God opened up the earth and swallowed Cora's family and, and the leaders who were, uh, instigating that rebellion.
Mm. The next day, the, the next day the people come before Moses and, and, and there, and they say, Hey, you are guilty for. Those people are, are dead and it's your fault. And, and God sends a, a plague. And before it can be stopped with incense, uh, many people have died. And here's what the Lord says. He says, I want, uh, Moses, I want you to tell the princes of the 12 tribes, let the prince of each tribe bring a staff.
So there's 12 staffs, and he says, put them in the [00:26:00] tent of meeting and. They do that, they spend the night like these walking sticks, spend the night in the in the holy place. And then in the morning, to their amazement, Aaron's rod has butted. It's come back to life. It's got almonds and blossoms, and that's God's miraculous sign that Aaron is his divine high priest.
Now in the book of Hebrews, which is a, one of the other passages I exe in my book, uh, I believe there's four references to the tur and shroud. In the book of Hebrews dealing with typology, it's linked with the holy place of the messianic tabernacle and the common wall, the curtain that separated the holy place from the most holy place.
And it says, when his flesh went through the curtain. He entered the Heavenly sanctuary in Hellenistic Judaism. As we learned from Josephus and particularly Philo down [00:27:00] in Alexandria, Egypt, the curtain of the temple was regarded as the the boundary between earth and heaven, the material world and the heavenly realm.
And John and his gospel speaks of how the word was with God, and the word became flesh. Tabernacle among us. And, and he will say in his first epistle, this is how you test whether spirit is from God or not. If he confesses that Jesus came in the flesh, he, he passed through the curtain, the incarnation, and he took on flesh.
And here we have just the opposite. In the book of Hebrews as a Hyde priest, he is in the holy place, which is his shroud. It's uh, uh, the tabernacle's, a tent, a place of covering, a place of abode. At the resurrection, his flesh went through the shroud, which was symbolic of the curtain and went into the heavenly place.
And Aaron's Rod has mentioned just a few verses earlier, and [00:28:00] then you've got the next statement, um, of these sayings, we cannot now speak in detail.
Guy: Mm-hmm.
Larry: He said, well, why not? Because the discipline of the secret, we can't reveal these things, but there's this amazing typology, the similarity between Aaron's rod that's put in the.
Tabernacle overnight and comes back to life and the burial shroud that is put into the shroud, and on resurrection morning, they discover, to their amazement, it's come back to life. There's this image and no body's there. And John affirms this theology of the shroud in his gospel when he says, when Mary looked in the tomb, she saw two angels, one at the head, and one at the foot where the body had been laying or lying.
So. That what he's saying there is that the tomb was a earthly type of the most holy place, the ark of the covenant, the mercy seat, where his body laid. And the book of Hebrews would say that the first compartment, the holy place is the shroud. [00:29:00] And John is saying, oh yeah, I, I agree with that. And the tomb itself is the most holy place symbolically.
And so again, we have a two compartment typology with a shroud just like this. The, uh, story of Jonah. There's a twofold compartment. There's the burial shroud and the tomb, and then there's the fish and the ocean. And so we see that in the early church there, there was the shroud theology in two ways. It was a double compartment.
So sign, oh, I guess what I wanted to say, uh uh. A guy was on this witness, can you bring up Joshua Stone? There's a story that Moses, at the end of his life, they went to Sheko and there's a mountain on each side. That's how you pronounce those two. And as I recall, half the tribes on one half on the other, and they repeat the curses and the blessings in.
Deuteronomy Chapter 28. Now, later, Joshua comes there when they come into the [00:30:00] wilderness and he says, choose for yourself this day whom you will serve. But as for me in my house, we will serve the Lord. And he gives them to recommit themselves to the covenant. And as they recommit themselves to the covenant, he takes a large stone and, and arche, we, we believe archeologists have actually found this.
Witness stone. They, they've actually found this, uh, at sheko in the archeological, uh, work. He'll say in the, what was this? In the book of, um, uh, Joshua, I believe it is. After Gideon has has died, they fall away from the covenant. And this witness stone, when it was erected by Joshua says, now this stone is gonna be a witness.
It's heard your confession, your commitment to the covenant, and if you ever fall away from it, this stone is gonna be a witness against you. The same type of thing is, is said about the Aaron's rod that butted Moses tells Aaron that we're gonna put that in the arc of the covenant, that it'll serve [00:31:00] as a sign against those rebels.
It's gonna remind future generations about that rebellion of core where they challenge the high priesthood of Aaron. And in the same kind of, uh, teaching that right of Hebrews is saying that. The shroud bears witness to Christ's high priesthood, and it serves much as Aaron's rod does. It served as a witness against that evil and wicked generation, which is what the, I believe this, the passage is teaching in Matthew about the, about the sign of Jonah.
There's a picture of the, of the witness stone, the, the actual, we believe that's the actual. Stone that was carved with probably the 10 Commandments and this, uh, witness against the Israelites when they went astray, uh, uh, many years after it was erected. As a witness against them breaking the covenant.
Does that make, uh, did, did that make, uh, sense on all of that, you think?
Guy: Yeah, absolutely. And, um, uh, it, it, it, it definitely makes sense. [00:32:00] One thing, uh, on the parallel, as you were speaking and as I was reading the paper the other day when, uh, so Jonah, he was sent to, uh, to, he was commissioned to go by God, he was commissioned to go to Nineveh and save the people there.
Now he didn't want to go. And that's then why he went out to sea. He went in the complete op opposite direction, got on the ship, and, and then of course he fells in the water. And then, you know, the, the, the leviathan or the beast takes him back after three days. Now, on the other hand though, Jesus, uh, did want to go.
I mean, I guess, you know, maybe in the Garden of Gethsemane you could say, well, you know, do I really, you know, have to do this? And God says, yes, you, you know, you have to. And uh, and then from the Garden of Gethsemane, as he is bleeding, you know, and sweating blood, uh, and then he realizes, yes, I now need to, you know, make my ascent to the cross and, you know, and the suffering that I'm gonna go through.
Uh, do you see that that, uh, is there [00:33:00] some kind of a parallel there that, uh, that I might be missing?
Larry: Well, I, I, I think you clarified that probably as well as can be. I, I would, the only thing I would say is we don't wanna push the typology more than it, um, was intended. So I'm not saying, I would not say that in every aspect.
The ministry of. Jonah and Christ paralleled each other. 'cause he's, the Christ was the perfect servant and Jonah was imperfect. So, um, you, you mentioned, yes, this hesitation, uh, drops of blood, but yet your will be done. He didn't go in the opposite direction. He went forward as the perfect servant. Yeah, the perfect servant.
But there are enough touching points of this typology that it, uh, the timeline. Yeah. And the twofold captivity, and they both have a ministry of calling sin to repentance. There's those, there's those major touching points. Yeah. And that's all, in my view, that's focused on, we could push it more than it's [00:34:00] intended.
Uh, in other, yeah. In other aspects.
Guy: And I think even as a, as a kid for myself, that timeline is just so critical. Jonah. In the, uh, belly of the beast for three days and nights and Jesus in the, in the belly of the tomb or the belly of the shroud for three days and three nights. Um, think that, you know, that's so incredibly parallel.
It's, uh, it's pretty amazing.
Larry: Yeah. One thing we might, uh, we possibly could add to it. And again, maybe this is pushing it further than it's supposed to be, but in Luke's account of the, there's one other writer that speaks to the sign of Jonah, and that's Luke. And uh, as I recall, he doesn't mention three days and three nights, but he says, as Jonah, as Jonah became a sign, I.
So will, uh, the son of man, and so you wonder, okay, how did Jonah become assigned to the Ninevites? And I thought, well, what would make a foreign people accept the testimony of this Jew? You know, if I was a preacher, went over to Russia or to [00:35:00] China. And said, God has called me here to tell you guys, you better repent and he's gonna destroy your country.
They may have some prejudice against Americans. Why would they believe me? Mm. You see. And was there something about the appearance of Jonah? Now the shroud has this ghostlike appearance of image Did, and I've just wondered, and again, this just conjecture on my part, did perhaps the stomach acid of the, of the, uh, of the, well the sea monster, did it bleach his skin white.
His face, his appearance, have some strange look to it. And his explanation was, yeah, I just came from the whale, you know, and, and God gave me this mission and I ran. And that caused them to believe, uh, his testimony, something about his appearance. Maybe. Now, the thing that's fascinating, the thing that's fascinating about this, and, and I'll just go, uh, a bit further, the second reference that we have.
In gospel of Matthew four chapters later has [00:36:00] this perplexing riddle. When the, uh, Pharisees and the Sadducees come and they say, we wanna see a sign from heaven, here's his answer. When it is evening, you say, it will be fair weather for the sky is red, and in the morning there will be a storm Today for the sky is red and threatening.
Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky that cannot discern the signs of the times? Even on adult generation six, after a sign and a sign will not be given except a sign of Jonah, he left them and went away. What are we to make of this strange riddle about you? You can tell the weather by the appearance of the sky, but you can't discern the signs of the time.
Guy: Hmm.
Larry: And what's in, what's fascinating about that? It's, it's a parallel synonymous parallelism, this poet poetry. There's two lines that are in parallel to each other. He says the same thing two ways.
Guy: Mm.
Larry: [00:37:00] And when you, when you match it up, the word appearance, prosopon matches up with signs. You can discern the appearance of the sky, but you can't discern the signs of the times.
Signs, lines up with appearance. And what I find fascinating about that is that. The word appearance pro upon has a double meaning. It often is not translated appearance but face. And so one chapter later, you have the face of Jesus becoming bright like the sun in his clothes becoming white. The story of transfiguration is this second recording of the sign of Jonah.
Story isn't a clue to the discerning reader. When sign is paralleled with appearance or face, and the most prominent part of the image is the face. And we have the story of the transfiguration, which has several touching points on [00:38:00] shroud theology. Um, so anyway, I, I find that kind of, maybe that's a clue.
And the reason we're given that second mentioning is he gives us a, a hidden clue about what the sign is.
Guy: Yeah.
Larry: It's about the, in particularly the face.
Guy: So here he is, uh, Matthew is writing a little bit cryptically, uh, when it potentially references the shroud. And that's because of the discipline of the secret.
Um, you know, the other thing that was going on at that time is the Jews were starting to, uh, rebel. You know, maybe softly at first, maybe more, more so certainly. And then in 70 ad was when they, you know, really, you know, went to war. Um, you know, I wonder if, uh, Matthew and maybe some of the other writers, if they're writing at about that time, I.
They realized that they had to be very cryptic as to how they wrote because they didn't want to, uh, you know, they certainly [00:39:00] didn't want the shroud to be destroyed and, and, uh, what have you. So the discipline of the secret may have gotten really strong at that time, and so then therefore the writing got to be that much more cryptic.
Larry: Yeah. I, I think you, I think you hit it on the head. I'm glad you brought the, uh, that, that up about the destruction of Jerusalem, because my thesis about. The sign of Jonah, uh, metaphor here and its solution, and that it's a witness. It's not a sign for faith, but it's a witness against that generation. How they unjustly crucified their Messiah, how they treated their Messiah.
That fits in the context of the judgment and, and the condemnation of the men of Nineveh and the Queen of the South that's in the text. But, but as you would hint to, it fits right in the broader context of Matthew. In chapters 23 and 24, twice, he mentions this generation, which in the sign of Jonie says this evil generation.
This evil and gener wicked [00:40:00] generation. In chapters 23 and 24, Jesus weeps over Jerusalem. I. Because they have rejected him and he, and God has been, God has sent him and yet he's being rejected and, and he knows that destruction is coming for them. Mm-hmm. Not one stone upon another, that temple is gonna be destroyed.
See? And so it all fits in the whole broader, uh, motif here of this condemnation upon that generation. I'm not being antisemitic, I'm not saying no. Today. We should. Uh, blame the Jews, uh, living today. It's judgment upon that generation of this innocent, innocent man being crucified, and it's a warning to them, and it's God's witness when he destroys the city, uh, decades later due perhaps, than to the, uh, way they treated the Messiah.
Guy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, potentially. That makes
Larry: sense. Yeah. The whole motif of God's judgment upon this nation. [00:41:00] Upon this generation and his witness is the image on the shroud
Guy: and the, you know, and those parallelisms, uh, you know, are so, uh, so strong and interesting. And, uh, you know, and so I think it, it, you know, it, it certainly adds to the whole story of the, the shroud and being a witness, and then the sign of Jonah and the, you know, the, like you said, the three days and being inside the belly as being inside the shroud.
Uh, that, that really does make a lot of sense. Um. We've got about five more minutes. Uh, tell us, uh, we're gonna set up another, uh, talk, which is, uh, on another paper that you have that's called, uh, can I Get a Witness? And, uh, tell us, just give us a real little teaser on that, uh, so that we can, you know, uh, tee up a Yeah.
Another interview.
Larry: Yeah. Well, okay, so there, there's three, even four major. Hidden references that I treat. I treat maybe 10 different passages in my book, but there's [00:42:00] four that I would call major. And uh, three of these particularly really show us that the early church had the shroud in their possession.
They knew of this image. We don't just have science today. And historical artifacts like the pre manuscript or the ceder of O Vito, the biblical text itself affirms for us. That the early church had this barrier shroud with this image on it. Now, one of the passages that we, we hope to do in the future is found in one John chapter five in verse six.
It says, this is the one who came by water and blood, not by the water only, but by the water. And by the blood, Jesus Christ. And it is the spirit who bears witness because the spirit is true. And there's three that are bearing witness in the present tense. Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one, or they are in agreement.
And the one, [00:43:00] if we are receiving the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, and this is the testimony of God that he testified concerning his son. So the question is, what is this testimony that God testified concerning his son and the, and the tense is very important there. And then this opening verse, this is the one who came by water and blood.
What does he mean by that? I believe he's talking about the spear wound that he mentions in the gospel. I. This is his own testimony that this burial cloth is genuine. They were aware of this image, and he uses that to support the humanity of Christ. There's a heresy in Ephesus where John is writing to his readers.
And, uh, where some have denied the humanity of the incarnation of crisis. So, uh, it's an important text, but again, it'll bear witness that John knew about this perial cloth and the image that exists today on it.
Guy: Mm, yeah. Yeah, I think so. Translated, [00:44:00]
Larry: yeah, we, we've not translated that pa that, that opening verse, right.
That's a very perplexing verse. Probably the most perplexing statement that John makes, at least in his epistles.
Guy: Yeah, and I think, uh, and I've used that as well. The, uh, he came by water and the, and, and the blood. And uh, and I think that is, uh, you know, definitely a direct reference to how he, you know, when he was, uh, when he was pierced for our transgressions while he was on the cross, that, uh, that there was water and, and blood that did come out.
And so that, uh, you know, I think that's definitely the case. Um,
Larry: and, and, and normally that's, that's understood to be. The baptism of Christ and the crucifixion. That's the most popular interpretation. But I'm saying, no, that's wrong. That's, that's not correct. It's the spear wound.
Guy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I definitely see that.
Um, Larry, uh, we're gonna break it here. Uh, we're gonna do the, uh, the other paper. Uh, can I get a witness, uh, [00:45:00] separately? Uh, so where can, uh, folks find out more about your book? The, uh, A Divine Testimony for the Resurrection?
Larry: Yeah, yeah. Thank you Guy. It's on Amazon, but if you go to my website, there's a 30% discount code, uh, right now.
I don't know how long that'll be, uh, but it is effective now. My website is the incredible shroud.com, the incredible shroud.com.
Guy: Fantastic. Yeah. Thank you. So the book again is a divine witness for the resurrection. By Larry s Staley. You can find it on his site. Larry, thank you so much. Uh, please go ahead and, uh, purchase his book.
Um, you know, his papers are fascinating and, uh, mine is underway as well. So we're looking forward to digging into that in a big way and, and really understanding how these different verses in the Bible, uh, refer to not just, you know, that they could have different meanings. And certainly when you put them all together, then they seem to really reference.
The, uh, the shroud and, uh, [00:46:00] while obeying the discipline of the secret. Larry, thank you so much. Uh, and then for the audience, uh, yeah, absolutely. And please stay tuned for other videos in this, uh, series on the backstory of the shroud of Turin. And otherwise, please visit guy powell.com and sign up for more episodes.
Larry, again, thank you so much. That was absolutely fascinating.
Larry: Yeah. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you guy.