Guy: [00:00:00] Hey, I'm Guy Powell, and welcome to the next episode of the Backstory on the Shroud of Turrin. If you haven't already done so, please visit guy powell.com and sign up for more episodes. I am the author of the book, the Only Witness, which is a Christian historical fiction tracing a possible history of the shroud over the last two millennia.
Today I'm speaking with William West. And, uh, he is, uh, uh, based in, down under, and he's written a couple of books in one of his latest and definitely excited to, uh, learn more about it. But let me tell you a little bit about him. He is a journalist and editor and has worked on national and international news publications for, uh, half a century.
After years of research, he has written an introduction for ordinary people to what [00:01:00] he believes is the most profound puzzle of all time. And yes, I agree with it is definitely a puzzle and it's either the world's greatest mystery or the greatest puzzle, but it absolutely, certainly is. And that is of course the shroud of Turrin.
William, welcome. It's so good to have you. Great to be here. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, tell us your backstory. How did you get involved in the Shroud of Turin? Well, my backstory goes back to 1980. Um, I was a young journalist and, uh, I saw David Royal's documentary film, the Silent Witness. Um, did you see it back then, guy?
I did not, but, uh, I have seen it since then. Yes, yes. Okay. So you, you know what I'm talking about. Yes. But in Australia, a lot of people say, um, you know, it really started off their interest in the shroud. Um, it was given a cinema lease and like me, many people were impressed, did even better in Britain where it was made.
Um, it won an [00:02:00] Academy Award, a bafta, and it's still worth seeing. I always encourage people, anyone who can't get, who can get a copy, um, to watch it. Actually an interesting fact, I only found this out recently, the director of the Silent Witness, David Rolfe, uh, told me, um, that the distribution rights in the United States were bought by Elvis Presley.
All people apparently, um, Priscilla Presley urged him to do it, to encourage his faith, and he was reading a book about the shroud at the time of his death. Um, so that's an interesting fact. Anyway, um, the silent wi uh, uh, witness impressed me, um, because it, it just, it it got a lot of the, the facts that, um, we now know about the shroud.
Um, and it put in a really cinematic form. And, uh, soon after that, um, stir came along and you, you, you certainly know about, uh, stir the [00:03:00] shroud of Turin research project. Absolutely. Um. Yes, dozens of of senior scientists from the United States, um, who were involved in space exploration and weapons research, took a plane load of scientific evidence, uh, sorry, equipment, um, to turn in to investigate this religious re and most weren't even religious.
Many thought they'd, um, expose it as a painting in a few minutes. Barry Schwartz used to point that out. He was the Jewish photographer, the documenting photographer, um, for Stir. Um, anyway, they thought they'd, they'd dispose of it in a few minutes and they'd take a holiday. Well, uh, as we now know, they spent five days working around the clock and, um, they couldn't work it out.
But thing, uh, one thing that they were sure of, um, it wasn't a painting. Uh, so believing the shroud exploded all over the world after that. But then unfortunately, as we all [00:04:00] know, in 1988, the carbon date was released. Um, suggesting the shroud was from the Middle Ages. Um, and like most people, I knew nothing about carbon dating, but it seemed so scientific and final.
Um, I took it on faith. Faith in science. I was young and naive. I'm not so naive now, I'm not so young, but that's partly because I spent many years working on our national newspaper, the Australian, uh, mainly as a, an editor of the, the National Higher Education Supplement and as a legal reporter. And, uh, I'm now very aware that the behavior of academics is not always beyond reproach.
Um, anyway, over the years, uh, I didn't give the shroud a thought. After, uh, the carbon dating came out until seven years ago, I went into a Catholic bookshop and I saw a poster, um, of the face on the shroud [00:05:00] hanging on a wall, and I thought. Why would anyone wanna promote that? It was carbonated. But then of course, I had to remind myself I knew nothing about carbon dating, and by then I wasn't so naive.
So, um, I started doing some research and, uh, early on, early on, I actually, uh, all, well, I didn't begin it, but, um, after doing a bit of research, um. On both sides. Um, I, look, I actually joined the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry in the United States. You would know about them? Um mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, I, I wanted to access the articles they had published over the, uh, about the shroud, uh, in their Skeptical Inquiry magazine, and they'd been doing that for decades.
So, um, I went right back. Um. And, uh, I've got to say I wasn't impressed. Um, uh, and the more research I read about the shroud from other sources, the more I became convinced it [00:06:00] had to be authentic. Um, so I did a complete about face and wrote my first book, riddles of the Shroud Questions Science Can't Answer.
That was, that was the first one up. Um, and, uh, the more scientific and historical evidence I looked into, uh, the more I realized it, it just wasn't a question anymore. It was authentic. It was the, the genuine cloth of Jesus Christ. And it had the, the blood that flowed from his heart when he died on it, and an inexplicable, um.
Unbelievable mysterious image. Anyway, um, the more I looked into it, the more it just became blindingly clear. Um, and at the end of, uh, my first book, uh, riles Shroud, I listed 99 points of evidence indicating the shroud was genuine. Um, I stopped at 99 because I didn't wanna give the impression list was exhaustive.
Um, and as you know, guy, the evidence for [00:07:00] the shrouds authenticity just goes on and on. Um, it certainly does. You know, it's funny, you know, you were talking, sorry to kind of interrupt you there, but No, you're right. Talking about the, uh, the skeptical inquirer and Yes. Um, you know what's funny is that, uh, so there's skeptics of the shroud.
Yeah. And, uh, they're very loud, um, and uh, and boisterous about it, but there's no skeptics of the carbon dating of the shroud. That are not shrouds. So you have non shrouds, so to speak, that are skeptics of the shroud, but you don't have non shrouds that are skeptics of the carbon dating of the shroud. And you would think that, you know, there would be skeptics on both sides that are, you know, that aren't just so, uh, so to speak politically or religiously or shroud in inclined.
Yes, exactly. So anyway, my main goal, uh, in that first book was to share the mountain of, of evidence, [00:08:00] um, indicating the shroud was genuine. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, um, uh, so now you have a new book which just came out and, uh, I've been reading about that. I haven't, uh, started to read it yet, but it's called the, uh, the shroud Rises as the Carbon Date is Buried.
So tell us, uh, you know, a little bit about that and what, uh, what's in there for sure. Well, uh, for many people who swallowed the carbon dating, um, I. When they, they learn about what really happened with the carbon dating, they'll realize they were taken in. Um, and for them the shroud will rise, I'm sure. Um, and they'll bury the carbon dating without hesitation, you know, it was just so wrong.
But, um, the oddest thing for me when, um, I went into the carbon dating was how the whole thing was handled by the carbon data. Um, and you would, um, know this, you, you, you've read Joe Marino's. Uh, absolutely. I got a big there. [00:09:00] I've got. Yeah, exactly. I thought, will I carry it in, into, um, the room that I'm doing this interview in?
And I thought, no, it's too heavy. 800 pages. It's a lot to read, isn't it? Well, you know, it's funny, uh, Joe's a a good friend of mine now, um, and uh, so he has a supplement to that, so that's 800 pages. He's got a supplement, which is whatever it is that you can download online. And now he's also, um, uh, been reading through a lot of archives from, uh, a couple of different sources and he thinks he's probably gonna have a couple of hundred more pages.
Is that right? Oh, whoa. You know, yeah. Most people would just shy away from that, you know, couple hundred more. But for me that, that's exciting. You know, he is done a great job there and, and he makes it very clear all of the politicking that went on behind the scenes and how, as you say, you know, the, the people who don't believe in the shroud, um, they're a solid block and, [00:10:00] and they won't hear anything, um, in favor of it.
Hmm. So, um, you know, it's a bit of a problem communicating with them. But, uh, anyway, when, when the, um, carbon data, uh, announced their, their findings, they actually had a, a, a little table with three of the carbon data behind. And, uh, behind them was this old blackboard. Um, and it had these, these two dates, um, cha chalked onto it.
And, um, apart from that. They, they were middle ages days, 1260 to 1390. Apart from that, they had no written published evidence to support what they were saying. But the most outspoken carbon data was, um, professor Edward Hall from Oxford University at the time. Very few people knew about that. Mugs like me had no idea.
And, uh, the, the fact was that Hall [00:11:00] was, um, uh, a veteran of promoting atheism. He used to give talks at the British Museum. Um, he was sort of like a, an early Richard Dawkins. Um, we didn't know that. And, uh, it's, it is something that I first discovered when I read Ian Wilson's book, um, the Shroud Fresh Light on the 2000 year old mystery.
But at that time, um, nobody knew. And, uh, in re retrospect, the carbon dating. It looks extremely suspicious when you know all the background. Uh, thank you, Joe. Um, what happened was that during the dating process, the results were leaked to the media. And so of course, a Rush Media conference had to be held to, to make it all official.
Um, and it was held in a basement room at the British Museum. It focused on three men. Um, and, uh, the one who who did most of the talking was Professor Hall. Um, [00:12:00] and he was sitting, uh, down the left hand side of the queue with his arms folded and looking very stern. Yep. With the blackboard behind him with evidence.
1260 to 1390 And, uh. He, he just burst out with all of this, um, rhetoric. You know, he said, um, you know, Shradda, Turin was created by a medieval forger. And, uh, he had no e evidence, um, to support that contention. Um, and then he said, um, anyone, uh, after our carbon dating, anyone who, who in the future claims that it's real is just like a flat earth, you know, and, and, you know, that would silence anybody who was ready to speak up and question the details.
Um, so it was a bit, bit of a, a disaster for, um, the, uh, the people who really knew the facts about the shroud. Um, yeah, it certainly was. And um, yeah, and I [00:13:00] remember, uh, in 1978 when some of the articles were coming out from, uh, stir. And then, uh, and, and I said, oh, well, that's kind of interesting. I wasn't really involved in it, you know, or even thinking about the shroud.
It was just kind of an interesting, you know, thing to kind of think of, wow, there's a burial cloth that has a face on it, and it's kind of miraculous. And, and, you know, it's, it just interesting. And then in 1988 or 89, actually, I guess when, um, you know, the, the, the, the results came out and were starting to be published and, and being, uh, socialized around the world.
And then I go, oh, it was fake. So I, you know, I. I, I basically ignored it after that. And, uh, I did the same thing. I did the same thing. I mean, it had that impact on most people, I think. Yeah. And on so many people. And, uh, it's only now recently, you know, with, with all of the books coming out and all of the, all of us kind of shroud, atheists, uh, uh, you know, really getting back into it and, and a couple of other things.
And, and so it's, it's [00:14:00] fascinating to see how, how things are finally getting back, so to speak, into the. Into the norm with, uh, with the, uh, with the study of the shroud. Exactly. Um, and, uh, the, the actual release of, um, the findings of the, um, carbon dating, uh, the, the actual summary of the, it was only a summary of the data appeared, as you say, in the next year.
In, in 1989 in Nature Journal, many re uh, SHR researchers could see straight away something was seriously wrong. Uh, I go into this in detail in the latest book, the SHR Rises, the, the full story, uh, didn't come out until recently when all the original data was finally released. The carbon data had refused for 28 years.
Can you imagine that? 28 years? They sat there every time someone said, can we look at the data? They said, no. It was just astonishing. You know, I, I reported on academia for many years, uh, as I say for [00:15:00] the, the national newspaper and, uh. I'm sure things are similar in, in other countries. Certainly in Britain and the us you just don't get that.
You don't get academics say, no, you can't look at the data. The data is the most important thing. Exactly. It's the most important thing if that you have to be able to prove what you did based on the data that everybody agrees to. Absolutely. And it wasn't until, um, the data, uh, was released only recently, um, after a legal action under Britain's freedom of information laws that, um, people could see the truth.
People who actually interested in the facts anyway, uh, awful lot of journalists out there who have no time for the facts, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, they're just looking for a good story, but the whole thing reads like something out of a novel and, uh, as they say, fact, stranger than fiction. In short. Um, thanks to, um.
The release of the raw [00:16:00] data, the suspicions of, uh, shroud research is that the carbon dating was flawed, have now been very clearly confirmed. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it really is, uh, fascinating in the, um, uh, and uh, that it took that long before the, the data was really released. So, you know what's funny is, um, you know, when I think about it and now, uh, you know, all of the different discoveries that have been taken that have taken place about the carbon dating and what have you.
Yes. And now in your book, uh, the shroud Rises as the carbon date is buried. Uh, so what were the most, uh, startling discoveries that you found? Well, a, after the release of the, the raw data, um, several articles were published in peer reviewed academic journals confirming, um, that the carbon data was clearly wrong.
Um, but the academics tend to use very, uh, difficult terms like lack of homogeneity and heterogeneous data. You [00:17:00] know, what, what does the average person make about heteroskedasticity? What is that exactly? Um, uh, in layperson's terms, what they meant was that the figures didn't make sense. I mean, the, the dates that the three carbon dating labs Oxford, Zurich, and, and Arizona came up with failed a statistical test are crucial.
Statistical test, um, used as established, uh, whether carbon dating is reliable. Um, the main test calculated the significance level of the carbon dating. Now the higher the significance level, the more compelling the findings are likely to be. For instance, uh, one or three con uh, control samples. Um, one of three, uh, control samples that were used at the same time, um, as they carbonated the shroud, uh, dated.
Um, uh, so came up with significance level of 80%. Um. And that wasn't too [00:18:00] bad. Um, I mean, carbon dating's not a precise science when you look into it, but 80% was okay and all three, uh, of the other, um, uh, samples, um, uh, were reasonable. You know, um, they were much higher than, uh, the, the shroud sample, what they came up with, the shroud sample.
And this is buried deep down and is paid no attention. In that first article in Nature Journal, it was only 5%. Anyone who knows about, um, carbon dating or statistics knows that 5% is pretty ridiculous. I mean, it, it's the absolute minimum for carbonating. Um. To have any credibility at all, um, you've gotta just inch over 5%.
Um, but when the shroud researchers, um, looked at the, that original data that was published in Nature Journal and recalculated the shroud [00:19:00] significance level using the, the same statistics that, that the carbon data had put out there, found that, um, it was really not 5% at all. It was 4%. Now, you know, a lot of people might think, well, that's only 1%.
You know, what's the big deal? And, uh, I'm sure that the carbon data thought to themselves, well, people will think, what's the big deal? Um. But in fact, it's a big deal, um, you know, to bump it up to 4% and have no evidence supporting that to go from 4% to 5%. Um, that was significant. And a lot of those early shroud researchers, um, tweaked to this.
And so they, you know, as we know, they, they asked, you know, give, give us the raw data. We want to have a look at that. And of course, they were denied and it was just locked away, and the carbon data said no. But, um, then, um, they, they looked even further into some leaked figures and they discovered that it wasn't [00:20:00] even 4%, it was 1%.
One chance in a hundred that the carbon date was accurate. Do you, I don't know. I, I must be on another planet when I look at that, I just think game over, you know, these people were either off on their own trip. Well, they had another purpose in mind, you know, one, one chance out of a hundred that the, the figures were likely to be accurate.
Um, yeah, well I had a Did you pick that up early on? Yeah, yeah. You know, it's, well only really only recently, but you know, it's funny, I had a friend of mine and, uh, he would say, well, you know, we got 5% out of that, and that's almost 10%. And then, you know, whether 10 and at 10%, that's almost 20%. And, but you know, if we're at 20%, we might as well just say that we're at 50%.
That's, you know, you just keep, that's, then that's almost, you know, how they were trying to interpret a 5% and then a 4%, and then a 1%, well, one percent's almost four, [00:21:00] and well, four. Well, let's round that up to five. Yeah. And, and, you know, all, all of the dates were in the middle ages, you know, come on. Yeah. Um, you know, but they missed the whole point of it.
Um, the problem was that, um, uh, the carbon, just on that basis, the carbon date should have been rejected outright. It would've, it should have been thrown in the bin, and those carbon data should have admitted publicly, look, we failed. But of course, they, they were introducing this new, um, small sample technique and, um, their bread and butter relied on them.
Um, having it accepted, so it was in their interest to, you know, push it ahead and say, no, no, it's, um, 95% accurate, you know, which is just absurd. Anyway, um, it, it all went on, um, for, for many years, as we know, for almost three decades, um, until the, the truth, um, came out. Mm-hmm. And thanks to that, that freedom of information legislation.
[00:22:00] So, uh, but the other thing, um, that came out of the data was not only that, um, uh, what, what happened. They took only a tiny sample of the show, as we all know. I mean, originally, um, the whole proposal was that at least three samples would be taken from around the cloth. Um, so that you get a, a good picture of mm-hmm.
What, what was happening on that piece of cloth. But in, in the end, they only took one sample, um, instead of the three, and they cut it that into three pieces. So. When, when they looked at the, the results from, uh, the, the carbon dating from Oxford, um, uh, Zurich and Arizona, um, they discovered that there was this strange pattern and it was an increase, um, from the bottom of the cloth, which was the Oxford sample, um, through the middle Arizona, [00:23:00] um, to the top one that was the closest to the body.
On the cloth. And, um, there was 130 year difference as it went up. And it was very clear and very steady. All of the little measurements that they made were dotted onto the graph. Um, and the axis going through those dots showed you that it was increasing steadily. Um, there was a clear linear increase in the dates as you approach the, uh, the body itself.
And, um, this carries a story of its own and it's a very big story. Um, and it's one that, that was, um, first identified by a physicist from Harvard University, um, named Dr. Thomas Phillips. Um, he wrote, uh, in the same edition that they published, those summarized, um, data. From the carbon dating, he wrote a letter in, [00:24:00] um, and he said, of course, all of this could be explained by the, the radiation, um, the, the idea that, that the image itself was caused by radiation, and that would increase the amount of carbon 14 on the cloth so that the closer you got to the body, if, if there was a burst of radiation from the body that formed the image, the, um, higher the date.
Um, and, and that would explain that. That linear increase of 130 years that you got closer to the, the body. Um, and that's been taken up by, um, many rou researchers now, um, including, and probably the one who's, who's been most, uh, outspoken about it. Uh, Robert Rucker, um, who, who you've had, mm-hmm. You had on this pod podcast before.
Um, and he's, uh, a nuclear, [00:25:00] um, engineer and worked, he played with these sorts of figures his whole career. He knows exactly what the picture is that emerged there. Um, and the picture is that that is evidence, um, that radiation occurred and that that explains, um. Medieval date and, and all three of the medieval dates.
Now, I, I, I know, um, Joe Marino has his own theory about that. Um, he, he's got this theory of invisible weaving. Um, and that's a, a really powerful, um, theory. Um, I think that could still be right. Um, both, both theories can work together. When you, you look at it, you know, sometimes carbon data, my impression is they, they get aligned on one side or other.
I, you know, I think that the, the, uh, uh, invisible. Weaving is the, the explanation. Others people say No, it's the, the radiation, [00:26:00] um, from the body. But you know, you can have the radiation from the body, uh, without necessarily having the increase, although that linear characteristic really grabs me. Um, uh, but, uh, if that's not the cause, then the invi invisible, uh, weaving may be because the evidence for that is reasonably strong.
Um, so, uh, anyway, that, that, that's where, where I took that in my book. Yeah. Yeah. And those are, uh, you know, those are very fascinating arguments. And one of the things that, as I, as you know, I've interviewed, uh, Robert Rucker, and, uh, when you draw that line of that 130 years, uh, per inch or whatever it is, I can't remember exactly how it goes, but if you just draw a straight line all the way to the center of the shroud where the head is, then the carbon date.
At that point would be 4,000 years into the future, so Exactly. You know that [00:27:00] That's a point I made. Yeah. I've made that in my, my first book. That was something I did understand, even at that early stage. And I put it in the book and it still stands. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's talk about your, uh, your first book and how then this, your second book, uh, the Shroud Rises as the Carbon Date is Buried, differs, uh, from what you had in your first book, which was Riddles of the Shroud.
Okay. Well, um, my, my, my second book, um, the, the first book I. Covered a lot. It was like an introduction, um, to ordinary people of all this scientific information that, that, um, most shroud researchers and scientifically minded people knew about, you know, the average person certainly in Australia, and, and I think it's the same in the US and and Britain.
Most people sort of have, have a parting of the ways with science, uh, fairly early on when they're aged about 16 or so. Um, mind you, they, they can pick up some very basic important things about science [00:28:00] early on, and it's always there in the back of their head if they call on it. And I think something like the shroud can help people call on that, but a lot of other people just don't wanna know about it.
It's just too complex. It's hard work and everything, you know, I, I don't want that, uh, science, but. They'll, they'll listen to the basic facts, and if you can get them just to focus on, on the, um, uh, results of, of science more than the actual process of it, um, they'll, they'll listen and, and they'll, they'll take it in.
Um, so, you know, I, I started off with this first book, um, and I, at the end of it, I summarized, um, there, there were 99 points of evidence. Um, and as I've said, you know, I stopped at 99 because I, I didn't want people to think that it was conclusive, or sorry, exhaustive. Um, it was conclusive. But anyway, so, um, I did that and, uh, when I came to the, yeah, I, I've actually got an anecdote in the first book, uh, sorry, in the second book [00:29:00] about how, um, you know, I first got out there and started defending what I, I said in the book.
And, um, I gave these public talks and one of them was to a seminar of priests. Um, held in Sydney and, uh, I went along thinking, oh, well this, this is no big deal. It'll be pretty tame and all the rest. And uh, when I arrived there, I was informed that Cardinal George Pell was in the audience. Um, I. Um, at afternoon tea, he came over to me.
We, we knew each other, you know, I wasn't close to him at all, but, um, he, you know, he had all of these, these terrible accusations against him and all the rest, which thank God he survived. Um, you know, anyway, I won't go there, but, um, he, he was very pleasant and he talked to me and then at the end of the talk, he, he pointed to the, the room where I was going to give the talk and he said, um, I'll see you in there.
It was like the, the headmaster calling me [00:30:00] to, to his office. And, and you know, you, you know about, I, most people know about Cardinal pe. He was very influential figure in the Catholic church and, um, uh, very outspoken, very intellectual. I dunno whether you've ever seen, um, his debate with Richard Dawkins. Uh, it is a program in Australia called q and a.
Uh, questions and answers and, um. He stood up to Dawkins in, uh, you know, a very clear way. And, um, uh, he was a very strong speaker. He, he grew up in a pub and he played Australian rules, which is a, a very, you know, um, masculine game. Um, and, uh, he, he didn't, you know, have any time for, he didn't take fools, um, lightly.
And, uh, anyway, I thought, well, hell, you know, I'm really in for a debate here. So I wandered into the room and I gave my presentation. I went for over an hour. I kept talking and [00:31:00] talking, talking, hoping that the facts would save me. And uh, he had a copy of the, he was supposed to buy a copy of the book and he was flicking through it.
And he was looking at, looking at me and examining everything I said. And I, I had a screen there and showing all the images and all the rest. Um, and, uh, then it came to our q and a and I thought, well, you know, here we go. He's going to take me apart. Now. He didn't, didn't ask a single question. I. Hmm. And, uh, then the q and A came to an end, and there he was.
And, and suddenly I noticed he was heading straight for me. And well, here we go. He, he's gonna take me apart personally. And he reached out with his right hand and he shook my hand and he said, thank you for restoring my faith and the shroud. Well, you know, I, I just felt, you know, um, great. I just thought, well, you know, um, it.
The truth is there, you know, if, if, if people, um, can absorb this truth, then, then they'll know that the shroud [00:32:00] is genuine. But then as time went on, I gave more and more talks. I realized that some people really still didn't give an inch, um, because of the carbon dating. They, they just had this closed mind.
So that's, that's how the second book came about. I just kept thinking about thinking, well, I've gotta look deeper in, into the carbon dating. And, uh, and that's what I did. And, and the book outlines the whole thing. You know, it is just amazing what they got away with. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the, uh, I think, you know, stopping at 99, I, I don't know how many there are.
And, and I think every day there seems to be some new little tidbit that you is, points in that direction of, uh, of authenticity and another one, and a big one, and a little one, and a, and all kinds of, you know, different things. And I, and I think what's also fascinating is, uh, not only that there are. Over 99, uh, you know, proof, so to speak, of the authenticity of the shroud.
But they're, they come from such a diverse [00:33:00] set of, you know, fields of study. So you have, you know, the pollen dating, you have this, you know, dating, you have that, you now have the wax s dating. I mean, it's, it's incredible how many different pieces and, and, and uh, and studies and things like that that, uh, that lead to then proof that the shroud is, uh, is authentic.
Exactly. I mean, and one of the things that IE emphasize in both books is that the shroud is a puzzle that only fits together one way. Mm-hmm. Um, the, the, at first the blood had to be on the cloth before the image appeared. Mm-hmm. Um, this, as you know, uh, is because researchers have shown that there is no image under the blood and the image itself.
Could only have been formed by, well, this, this is what I think the ev, uh, evidence points to could only have been formed by a, a burst of radiation slash light. [00:34:00] Um, that's because the image is on the very surface of the cloth. Um, and it's, it's made up of discarded microfibers. Um, if fluid or gas had been involved, but the images, uh, in the images formation, the discolored fibers on the cloth would've penetrated much deeper into the cloth.
Um, and if the body had been physically removed, um, the cloths would've been broken. Mm. But they're intact. So the only way the body could have been removed is if in some mysterious way the body dematerialized and passed through the cloth just as John's gospel, um, infers that Jesus resurrection body was able to pass through walls.
To enter a locked room. Um, so that's extremely significant for significant for me. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, you know, it's funny because, uh, now [00:35:00] you mentioned, you know, the, the puzzles, of course, the, uh, the, the most profound puzzles of all time or, um, you know, or the world's greatest mystery. And, um, so what do you think are the, the biggest riddles, uh, that you've uncovered, uh, in, in, in your study of the shroud?
Well, there's certainly a lot of them. Um. But of course the biggest riddle of, uh, all, um, is, um, how the image was created. Um, uh, you, you would know, um, that, um, David Rolf, uh, who was the director of, uh, the silent Witness has made a million dollar bet. And, uh, he, he first bit, uh, the British Museum that, you know, they said because they overlooked the, the carbon dating that it was done by a middle, um, uh, middle Ages forger.
And, uh, so if, if they said that, they must have thought that, um, someone from the Middle Ages could have done it. Um, but so [00:36:00] he bet them, if you think someone from the Middle Ages had done it, and with all of your scientific researchers and all of, all of your scientific equipment and everything. Show us how they could have done it.
And he said, if you can, I'll, I'll give you a million dollars. And of course, they didn't hear a repeat from the British Museum. So then when he went to the United States more recently, he extended the bet to the US and he said, if any researchers here can show me how it was done. And of course, nobody's come forward.
And now I'm actually on a committee to organize Australia's first conference, um, on the shroud. Um, and that'll be held in late, uh, June, from June 27, uh, 28. And, um. He's coming out, he's gonna be one of the main SME speakers at that. And, uh, he's going to bring the bet with him. He's going to dare all the Australian researchers.
And [00:37:00] I dunno if you, you know very much about the Australian academic, uh, situation, but we have, um, a lot of universities that sell a lot of courses to people from Asia, particularly China. You know, there are wards of people from Asia coming into the country because we do have, um, a reputation for a really high level higher education system.
And, uh, so he's gonna bet all these researchers too in all these universities. To step up and, and tell him how, uh, some medieval forger did it. And of course, I, I doubt that, that anyone's going to take that bait because a, you know, a lot of people tried before the carbon dating a lot of advanced scientists.
And, uh, so, uh, uh, it'll be interesting to see, um, uh, what happens there. But, so, uh, back to the Briles. Um, I've got a list here. I've made a list to give you an idea, [00:38:00] uh, how they go. Well, while you're doing that, I think you're so right. The, uh, the actual image formation is, uh, is, is gotta be right at the top.
That's gotta be number one. Uh, and yes, exactly, no question about it. Absolutely. That's number one. The biggest of all, um, is how the image on the cloth was created. As you know, it's a, a, a photographic negative image and. It existed for hundreds of years, um, before photography developed. Um, and as you know, you know, in the 18th century, it, it all happened because, um, advanced science fed on engineering to create the first camera.
Um, but somehow this shroud that was at least as old as the Middle Ages and, um, clearly now from the first century had this photographic ne negative image. The other thing is that the image is not only photographic, but it's [00:39:00] 3D um, three dimensional. Um, that's because the density of the image is greater for the parts of the body that are closer to the cloth.
Um, the parts of the body furthest from the cloth. Are less dense. Um, so this explains the 3D quality of the image, but nobody knows how that was achieved. The image was able to show the body had rigormortis and, and that, um, you know, adds to the, the three dimensional quality. How, how do you get an image that shows mortis with the knees bent forward from the front?
As well as the back, uh, with the measurements all exacting Exactly. Matching it. It is just amazing. Um, uh, no artist in middle ages could even contemplate something like that and, and, uh, an artist, uh, could not have found, um, how to, to do it, you know? And then you've got the other riddle is, um, the [00:40:00] primitive weave and herringbone pattern that is so unusual, um, for a cloth from any age, but particularly from the Middle Ages.
Um, but somehow somebody in the first century got hold of him. Um, and you do a very good job, I must say, um, in your book, the only witness, you know, with that little boy running around, uh, trying to get the client, his dad wanted, um, to bury Jesus in. Um, and then he, he found it and he was worried, you know, is Dad gonna be angry with him for spending the whole 15, uh, TrackMan or whatever that, that he was given?
And, uh, he got back and his father was delighted and he said, this is just what we need. Basically, you know, that, that was delicious. You know that that's it has that. A aroma about it, doesn't it? That you know? Mm-hmm. It was all just, you know, hodgepodge as, as they went, but there was a hand guiding the whole thing.
And, uh, it worked out perfectly. I mean, that's one of the [00:41:00] big evidences against the carbon dating, you know, uh, uh, the, the British Museum searched all over the world, uh, for a herringbone cloth, um, with similar primitive weave, um, from the Middle Ages so that they, they could use in the carbon dating that they, they could use it, um, to contrast with the, the carbon date.
Anyway, um, they couldn't find it. They couldn't find it anywhere, but there it is. It's, it's on the shroud of terrain. Um, another riddle is that no artist, even in the middle ages, um, could have created the perfect. Blood flows, um, and clots, um, on the shroud. Um, uh, you know, we, we know that from, uh, that, that wonderful book, A Doctor at Calvary, which was written by, um, one of the world's great experts really on blood and blood flows and blood clots.
Um, anyway, um, I could [00:42:00] talk about that for ages. Um, but then another riddle is, um, the microscopic. Deposits, uh, I think you mentioned this earlier, of Jerusalem's rear limestone soil. Yep. I mean that in itself, it's just extraordinary, isn't it? You know, that, that, uh, even, even the disturbed scientists, they went through the whole body and they didn't notice this dirt until they got to the soles of feet where it was all very concentrated.
Um, and then, uh, they got an expert on their team to look at it and he said, oh, that's dirt. That's just dirt. And then, um, they, they searched the rest of the body got their microscopes out, and they found further deposits on the knees and on the nose indicating that our Lord, um, not only fell to his knees, but he fell on his face.
And of course, after that, uh, John Jackson and, and the other [00:43:00] people, um, it's stood, uh, took that to some of the world's leading experts to have it. Analyzed that dirt, have it analyzed, and they agreed it had the exact fingerprint of Jerusalem dirt. You know, it, it wasn't any accident or wasn't, you know, some media medieval, um, research or, um, carbon data, uh, I'm getting lost here now.
Some medieval whatever. Yeah. Borja, um, would never have thought of that to put these microscopic details of a Jerusalem soil on, on the nose, and you know that. But the riddle, uh, that riddle is easy to answer, answer. Well on that one, that one too. You were a, uh, medieval forger and, uh, you were based in Europe.
You would've had to have sent somebody or go yourself down to Palestine to get the, [00:44:00] uh, you know, that dust that exactly. And, and or go to, uh, you know, Eastern Turkey to get the same dirt that they had in the poll. And, you know, you haven't even talked about the pollen yet. That's right. I was just getting, that was the next riddle.
But you, you're absolutely right. I always think of that, you know, what's this forgery in Europe in the Middle Ages thinking, well, you know, in, in the future, uh, all of these scientists are gonna come along and examine this under a microscope and they're going to be looking for Jerusalem soil. I better go and, you know, get Joe over there to go and get some from, from Jerusalem.
Didn't happen. Anyway. So then, then the next point I should say, um, is the flower pollen. And, uh, that again, has been, um, examined and, uh, uh, found to, um, be, um, uh, the real theme from Jerusalem and, uh. Uh, the guy who did that, um, was from Europe, and, [00:45:00] uh, uh, he was attacked and he, his character was undermined, um, by, uh, the, the pe the people who oppose, um, the truth about the shroud.
And, uh, you know, it looked a bit grinned there for a while because, um, you know, they were really doing a job in on him. But then two Jewish researchers, um, from Jerusalem looked at the evidence, the shroud, the, the, um, pollen evidence. Um, and they decided, um, this is the real thing. You know, these, these are definitely Jerusalem pollens.
And they're not only Jerusalem pollens, they're, they're from plants that only flower in spring in Jerusalem. When Jesus was crucified. And you know, that just seals the deal on the pollens. I, I gotta say, um, I mean, how do you, how do you argue against that? And the, the answer is people don't Yeah. Well anymore.
Yeah, exactly. And the forger [00:46:00] then would have had to have sent somebody from you down to Palestine in the spring. Yes. They would get there in the spring and then somehow, I don't know, shake all the bushes or whatever it was, is and gather up all of that pollen and bring it back. Exactly. And, and there wasn't only the, the pollens, um, from Jerusalem that they found, uh, that max Fry, that he was the, the guy that they, they, uh, who pioneered the whole, um, pollen thing.
Um, he also found, um, pollens showing, um, a, a journey from Jerusalem through Eastern Europe. Um, right up to Constantinople, where the shroud was for many years. Um, and then after the fourth crusade looted, unfortunately, very unfortunately, looted Constantinople of all of its relics, the next time it comes up [00:47:00] in history is when it, its surfaces in northern France.
Um, and it has pollens from northern France and from where it is now in tur. So you've got the whole journey there, um, illustrated by, um, the pollens. Um, so there's only one answer to that riddle. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So, um, and then, then, sorry, I I, I, I don't wanna go on and on, but, but just a couple of really basic things as that probably things that, that, you know, know any, well, I'm sure things that, you know already, I'm positive that, but, um, the blood chemicals.
You know, you've got this per this, these perfect, um, flows. And, um, uh, the whole pattern of, of the blood on the shroud is real. You know, it's real that within the blood, when you put the blood on under the, the microscope, you find blood chemicals that could have only come from someone who was [00:48:00] tortured. Um, the riddle here is how can an artist get that blood on the cloth without the body of someone who was crucified with nails through the wrists and feet, um, and who was lad through the heart?
How could he get that blood with all those blood chemicals on the cloth? There are things that, that pass through my mind constantly. I, 'cause you're, you know, as someone who supports the trial, you, you think, you know, everyone's a little bit doubtful and Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got some scientific evidence, but it's just amazing evidence.
Yeah. Yeah. And there's, and it all kind of comes together, you know, so you'd, uh, outline 99 and each one of them Yeah. Builds on each other. And like we were talking about comes from a totally different direction. So it is, it is just fascinating. So, uh, yes, just, just one last, last riddle, Uhhuh. That it's the riddle of the Sud of Oviedo and, and you, you know, all about that.
Um, [00:49:00] the Sudar is, um, uh, believed to be the face cloth that covered Jesus face from Golgotha to Gethsemane. Um, and for, for centuries it, it was kept there in Jerusalem. Um, but then with the onset of, uh, the Muslim fighters into Jerusalem, they moved it, uh, through Northern Africa, into Spain. Um, and it arrived there in the six hundreds.
And the fas fascinating thing, um, I. Is that it has the same blood patterns, it has the same Jerusalem soil and the same flower pollens from Jerusalem. Not, not, uh, the ones that go through the east, um, across to Western Europe. Um, but um, pollens that go through to to Spain. And, uh, you know, it all just comes together.
You know, the face cloth fits the shroud itself. The face cloth was taken off the face, the shroud was then put on the body. It [00:50:00] absorbed the same wounds, the blood from the same wounds. And, you know, it's just also clear. Yeah, yeah. That, uh, and that, uh, you know, and you're right. You could go on and on. And that one is definitely a very good one as well.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, uh, well with my book, uh, with, and I thank you for the mention of that, uh, you know, of the little boy running around trying to get the cloth. That's great. Yeah. That was a fun story, you know, and, and actually that was that story I wrote almost, uh, 15 or 20 years ago when I was reading Ian Wilson's book, and I was thinking, this oughta be put into a, you know, a historical fiction.
But in any case, uh, when I was writing the book, um, somebody asked me, well, what's the reason? Why are you trying to write this? And, um, uh, and I had, you know, and I thought about it. I says, well, what I want to do is I. Want to bring one person to, uh, to Christ. And, uh, and that's my mission and that's my objective.
And you know, and I think I've actually done that. I think I'm, [00:51:00] I've done even more than just one. So, uh, and 'cause you know how hard that is, that's a very, very difficult thing. Absolutely. Yeah. So we're all natural skeptics, aren't we? Yeah, exactly. But, uh, so with your book, what is the, uh, the one message that you would like to get across with now, your latest book, the Shroud Rises as the carbon data is buried?
Well, you know, the, the message from both books is that the shroud is genuine. Um, it really is the burial cloth of Jesus. Um, and this can be seen, uh, even if you look at a small part of the evidence, you don't have, you don't have to go through the 99 pieces of evidence, you know? Part of my reason for putting all, all that evidence in the first book was to, to give a comprehensive overview, um, and a little bit to prove my own scholarship in researching the shroud, because I really, uh, respect a lot of, um, uh, the, the great research of the shroud.
You know, um, [00:52:00] people like John Jackson and, and all the rest who just put their, pulled their whole life into the, the project and, um, you know, they've done magnificent, uh, work. But, so I, I wanted to be very comprehensive about it in that first book, but my view now is that, um, the, um, authenticity of the shroud, um, can be seen even if you look at a small part of the evidence.
Sure. You know, even the sorts of things that you and I have covered in this, the short interview, um, it should cement in people's mind that, you know, there's something going on here. There's a real mystery there, and. Only answer to that mystery is that the shroud is real and that something. Supernatural happened there?
Not, not to something natural, you know, it just can't be explained, uh, with natural, um, means it goes beyond nature. You know, when, when I was a kid at school, there was a teacher was, [00:53:00] was, um, explaining the difference be between natural causes and supernatural. And he made a real emphasis on the fact that supernatural causes are in line with natural ones.
They're, they're like a continuum, um, into something we can't see, you know? Um, so the supernatural thing sort of jumps out at you when, when you go through these, I mean, anyone you know, that you might think, well, ah, yes, you know, this bit of evidence might be, um. Explained by this natural thing or, or that bit of evidence might be explained by this natural thing.
But, um, when you take them all together, there's something supernatural behind the whole thing that we just can't see and natural things can't explain it. So, uh, uh, yeah, that, that was the, the, the, uh, main thing that, that the shroud is genuine. And, but these days I come back to, um, a statement that was made by Tristan.
[00:54:00] Casa Bianca, and, and you know that he, he's, uh, a, a very great researcher of the shroud. He was an atheist and, and the shroud helped him, uh, convert to Christianity. And he was actually the, the one who was behind getting the, uh, details about the, the carbon dating released. He, he was the one who launched the freedom of information, um, action, um, to get them released.
But, um, uh, he's asked the, the important question. Do we really need more evidence about the shroud? And, and I think he's right. The evidence is already there and it's been there. It's so compelling, uh, compelling. Um, and how, how could anyone with an open mind doubt the shroud is genuine? Um, when you look.
Even a, a small amount of the evidence that we have now, um, we, you know, it's wonderful every time there's some new dating of this road, like the waxes, um, dating that [00:55:00] you mentioned, the wide angle X-ray scattering, um, that got a lot of publicity this year. I picked up on it early and I put it in my first book.
Um, and nobody seemed to reacting, but then, um, suddenly the Daily Mail mm-hmm. Um, uh, did a story on it and it just was all over the world. You know, there's a new dating the Shroud and I go, what are you guys been doing? You've been asleep all this time. It's been around for years anyway, so it that came out.
Um, but yeah, I think Tristan Cassi, Bianca is right. You know, uh, the e evidence we already have is so compelling. How could anyone I. With an open mind, uh, doubt the shroud is genuine. Right. Uh, and, and just to finish up, I I, I, we, we've gone on for quite a while. I, I'm sorry I've gone over an hour here, but, uh, the other point I'd like to make, uh, is the shroud is not just about.
Scientific evidence establishing that it is authentic. It's about what it tells us about [00:56:00] Jesus. It tells us that, that he really did exist. That he lived and died just as the gospel say, and that he had the body of Emmanuel laborer, who clearly worked very hard during his three decades on earth. Doesn't mean everyone's gotta be a manual laborer.
Um, but our work, our work is important. And, um, he showed us that it was important by spending all that time doing it. Uh, and then of course, he suffered the agony of the crucifixion, which the, the shroud illustrates so that all sins could be forgiven. And the shroud even offers powerful evidence. Of his resurrection.
I, I'm certain about that. Yeah. Whether or not, whether, whether or not you go with the idea that, that the, uh, carbon 14 testing, um, was due to invisible breathing, um, using medieval stitching or that it was just a result [00:57:00] of what is also very obvious, um, that burst of radiation. The fact is that the shroud of churn is real and it's got a real message to convey.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And that, that's a great way to put it. And I, uh, I really like your, your analogy of, uh, you know, Jesus being a hard worker or I don't know if he was a laborer necessarily, but he was definitely, you know, he worked, uh, uh, you know, for. To bring his message about, and then certainly then the suffering that he had for the resurrection and the, you know, that singular, uh, instance of, uh, you know, as being the, the, the core of the whole Christian, uh, belief system.
Yes. Yeah. Let me, uh, so let me close, but, uh, uh, yeah, two things. One is, uh, where can folks find your book, uh, or your, both of your books? Well look, uh, at the moment, um, particularly for people overseas, uh, you can, um, only pick it up on [00:58:00] Amazon. Um, it's, it's so quick and direct. You get it Kindle, you can have it instantly or, um, you can get it printed.
I know some people don't like buying things on Amazon, and, and I'm trying to work out other ways to sell. At the moment, I've got, I've got a few publishers who are interested. Mm-hmm. So, you know, um, that might happen. Look, if anyone's really desperate, um, they can send me a, uh, a mess, uh, an email on, um, riles of the Shroud, one word.
gmail.com and, uh, send me your address and whatever you can afford, and I'll, I'll give, I'll get a copy and I'll post it to you. Fantastic. So rid of the [email protected]. That's wonderful. That's right. Yeah. You mentioned you have a, uh, you're putting, uh, you're, you're organizing a conference. Tell us about that.
Oh, wonderful. Yeah. I ha I, I'm, I'm glad you mentioned that because it's a big thing here in Australia. It's actually the first conference we've had in this country. There've been many other conferences around the world. Um, but it's going to be held, uh, [00:59:00] from June 27th to 29. Um, the main speakers will include David Rofe, uh, who I've, I've mentioned several times in this interview.
Uh, and of course, he was the director of the Silent Witness and, and other, uh, three other documentaries about the shroud. They're very much worth, uh, having a look at. Um, and Father Andrew Dalton. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and he's, um, developed a. Yeah, he's, he is got a great following on online now, well deserved. Um, he travels the world talking about the shroud, um, and he does a great job.
Uh, he's, he's very erdi, very well educated, and, you know, he knows all, all the Greek and the Latin and, and all and, and a lot of science as well. So, uh, he's very worth. Listening to, um, and then, uh, poor old me who's just a, a journalist and, you know, we have a great notoriety for, for not, um, uh, getting the [01:00:00] truth across.
Hopefully in this case, I am getting the truth across. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Um, so, and, and the conference will, will be opened, uh, by, uh, a bishop, um, from, uh, the Archdiocese of Sydney Bishop, Richard Umbers. Uh, there'll be a lot happening there. You know, the, the, the talks, um, uh, there'll be a, a big, uh, dinner at the launch and then, uh, talks from all these people and others.
And then, uh, the final day, um, will be David Rolf, um, giving a presentation on his latest, um, uh, documentary film. Um, who Can He Be? Yeah, so it, it, it should be a great project. Um, and, you know, um, everyone's welcome, even people from overseas. Yeah. Fantastic. Well, I wish I could get down there for that. It sounds like fun.
Yeah. Because we've got a, uh, a conference coming up, uh, as well, uh, here in, in the US in St. Louis, um, at the end of July. Yes, I know. Yes. Yeah. Wonderful. So hopefully, uh, you know, some of the Aus [01:01:00] Australian folks can come up here and some of the Americans can, can go down there and, uh, yes. More about the, the shroud.
Yes, that'd be great. Yeah, absolutely. Well, William, uh, thank you so much. This has been, uh, wonderful. I really appreciate it. And, uh, it's, uh, been very informative and you know, it's always interesting to, you know, there's always a couple of little, uh, pieces of information that. Uh, it gets added to the overall, uh, understanding of the shroud and, and all the different pieces of it.
So thank you so much and uh, I really appreciate it. So thank you for having me, guy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then for the audience, of course, uh, you know, please stay tuned for many other videos in this series on the backstory of the shroud of Turrin. And if you can, please visit guy powell.com and sign up for more episodes.
And if you like this episode, please, please, please rate it with five stars. William, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Thanks [01:02:00] Scott.