Guy: [00:00:00] Hey Guy Powell here with the backstory on the Shroud of Turin, and today we're doing a series of interviews to promote the upcoming shroud of Turrin. Conference in St. Louis and it'll be taking place at the end of July through August 3rd. And today we're speaking with Russ Bri. He is a longtime researcher and speaker and, and presenter in the shroud.
And he will also be presenting and speaking at the shroud. So, uh, let's dive right in. Welcome, uh, Russ. So what first drove you in into, uh, studying the shroud?
Russ: Well, first of all guys, nice to be back with you and, um, well it's one of those things about being in the right place at the right time. And this was a, a long time ago.
I'm not even sure if it was this lifetime, but, um, I was [00:01:00] back in, back in college in, uh, in, uh, 1980, if you can imagine that. And the new. Now you had a whole team of scientists go over to Turin in 19 78, 33 American scientists to study a, a, you know, some, an artifact that purported to be the borough shroud of Jesus.
And that was big news. It was news coming out about it all the time. And in that. National Geographic, they, they did a big spread on it in June of 80. So I was a writer for the college newspaper and I asked if I could write some articles about it. And, and I was very intrigued and, and they gave me the green light to do that.
And so I spent a lot of time researching it. And I called some of the scientists to get some quotes. And by the time the articles came out, it was a two part article series that came out in the fall of 80. I was, I was hooked. I was just, man, this is one seriously cool mystery and nobody knows anything about it.
And that's what I've been hooked ever since.
Guy: Yeah. Wow. So, uh, so true. I remember reading about it as well, but I didn't [00:02:00] get, uh, yeah, I was only reading about it and I go, wow, that's pretty cool. And, uh, so, yeah. Fascinating. So, uh, what are you gonna be speaking about
Russ: at the conference? Well, I'm gonna do a presentation called Seven Secrets of the Sacred Shroud, and it's gonna be dealing with some very in intriguing aspects of it that aren't, that aren't usually covered, um, in, in most general presentations.
It's, um, you know, and, uh, interestingly, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna focus on, on John Calvin's famous objection is, uh, basically a loose paraphrase would be, we know that, you know, you'd think something as significant as of Jesus leaving his. Image on his borough shroud that that would warrant a mention somewhere in the gospels.
And it's reasonable objection. And it's an objection. It still is often heard even to this day, but it's an objection that is, that is easily answered. And it's, um, and, um, might be some folks that want to hear what those answers are. And, uh, I think they're, uh, [00:03:00] in fact, and one of the, one of the secrets is a, in your face.
Obvious reference to the shroud, but remember how Jesus spoke in parables? Well, this is a visual parable, and it's, uh, about as, about as strong as you can get without, without setting off a search and destroy mission on the part of the Jews or the Romans to find it and destroy it. You know? So that's, you know, the people had to be careful, uh, back then and, uh, lots of persecution going on.
And, um, so, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna cover some of that. And the, um, then, you know. There's a, there, there's another intriguing clue as to the age and the place of origin of the shroud. That's another thing that's just kind of standing, staring you in the face. And it has to do with the pattern of water stains that's on the cloth.
Where do those water stains come from? And, and, and how and when do they originate? And we, we always thought it was from the fire [00:04:00] Uhuh. It's not from the fire. And so where did they come from and what does it tell us about the, the, the age and the origin of the shroud. That's gonna be real interesting.
Guy: And then, yeah, that's, uh, those are some great teases.
And, uh, definitely don't want to give the answer away. No, no, no. You gotta come to the lecture. You gotta come St. Louis July 30th. You gotta
Russ: be
Guy: there. Get your tickets now on sale now. Shroud 2025 conference.com. You know, one thing that, uh, though is, uh, really, uh, I don't know if it's curious or whatever, but especially for Protestants, a lot of Protestants who say, well, my faith is strong enough.
What do I need a relic for? Why do I need this shroud and learn more about that? I'm already a strong Christian. How do, how do you respond to that?
Russ: Yeah, I, I always, I find that objection to be a little, um, well, let me just say, I, I, I find it bothersome in the point that [00:05:00] it's like, because I have people come up to me all the time and say, well, I don't need the shot for my faith.
And my answer is, well, that's great, but that doesn't mean it wasn't meant for somebody else. I mean, you know, you know, you know, Thomas is just, is this perfect picture of a, of a per, he had, he had every reason to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead. He'd been walking with Jesus for three years. He knew that tomb was empty and, and he, and in spite of the testimony of all of his friends who, who, who testified that the Jesus had a, had.
Appeared in the upper room. Remember Thomas wasn't there, the the, the first time Jesus showed up. And so Thomas says, you know, classically says, no, no, no. I won't believe not until I thrust my hand into my side and placed my fingers into his nail wounds. And a week later, Jesus shows up and then Thomas is there and then, and then so and so finally he, once he's confronted with the.
Evidence of Jesus standing in front of him. He believed, in fact, he makes the strongest profession of faith in the entire New Testament. He says, my [00:06:00] Lord and my God. Um, but he, he couldn't do it, wouldn't do it, was unable to do it until he was face to face with the resurrected Christ. That's the message of the shroud.
That's why it exists. In my opinion, because there are thousands, millions of people in the world that are standing on the sidelines, that are standing on the fence, what's gonna push him over? And it's, um, one of the things people will say for our Protestant friend, well, God wouldn't do it that way. Well, how do you know?
I mean, Jesus says, bless out of those who believe and have not seen. That's true. But he did not condemn Thomas for his unbelief. He just, he, he pronounced a blessing on those who are. Able to believe without the use of evidence. But what, but that doesn't mean that evidence is forbidden. I mean, you know, so I think the shroud is, is there for all the doubting Thomases of the world.
And, uh, that's, that would be my answer.
Guy: Yeah. And that's, uh, that's great. And I really, I mean that verse, uh, blessed are those that have not seen and yet believe that that right there, [00:07:00] that's us. That is us. Right? We have not seen, and yet we, uh, we believe, and certainly the shroud can, uh, certain strengthen our faith and also potentially, you know, bring, help us to bring others that, uh, are on the fence or haven't even gotten to the fence yet, but bring them over.
So, uh, that's right. That's a, that's a great, uh, great point. So, uh, so what is, uh, how has the shroud affected your faith?
Russ: Well, it certainly has made me contemplate the price that was paid. You know, I mean, it, it, it's so, the scripture is so often understated, you know, and it says, you know, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
You can add a lot to that. You know, it's, you know, you know, Christ died for us. Really? You, you know, he this immense ordeal of crucifixion. Now, you know, Philippians gets a little closer to it, that, that he died even by, even by crucifixion. But even [00:08:00] that doesn't get it when we understand how he was brutalized the crown of Thorn over 30.
Puncture wounds around the head, you know, o over 120 scourge marks on the body where he was whipped, brutally. And then, you know, the clear nail wounds in the wrist and the, and the, and the feet. When we contemplate the shroud, when we look at it, were confronted with the brutality of the crucifixion. And one thing that's really has impressed upon me lately is the fact that.
Again, that verse, while we were yet sinners, open that word up. What's in that word? Sinners. Oh. Oh boy. There's a lot of nasty stuff inside that word. Sinners, I mean, from pedophiles and, and, you know, and God only knows, you know, it's, it's just, it's, you know, remember that. That metaphorical cup in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Father, if it be, th I be that I will let this cup pass from me. If that cup was filled with the sins of mankind, you couldn't be in the same [00:09:00] house with it. You couldn't, you know, the, the actual absolute. Den that would come from that cup, and yet that's the cup Jesus had to drink. And the significance of it is, is that if he didn't drink that cup, if Jesus didn't endure as much as he did, then we would have no hope of salvation.
It's um, again, this severity of the crucifixion was necessary because of the depth of man's sin. And which is a wonderful for us because that means that no matter what you've done, uh, it doesn't matter the as grievous a sin as you might have committed. The message of the cross is that Jesus has paid it all.
And when you look at that crucified body as as seen on the shroud of Turin, that's why he was so brutalized because he paid for everything. And so, and because of that, there's not a sin that he can't forgive. And [00:10:00] that's good news for a lot of people who feel that they can't come to God because I did this and I did that, and I did this.
And it's like, it doesn't matter. It's all been paid for. And that's what we see on the shroud.
Guy: Yeah, so true. And, and you know, early in your comments, you know, one thing that I find too is when you read the words at the end of the four gospels about the the crucifixion, you read the words and certainly the words are powerful, but to me it's nothing compared to when you look at that shroud and you contemplate and you see.
The 30 blood wounds from the crown of thorns, and you see the wounds and you see the blood coming down the arms and you see the blood coming out of the feet from the wounds and all the scourge marks. And it really makes the, those four gospels, those passages about the crucifixion that makes them really stand out.
And then I think that that strengthens your faith so much.
Russ: Yeah. I mean, a lot of Protestants will say, well, he is not on the [00:11:00] cross anymore. Yeah. Well, the Apostle Paul all through his entire missionary journeys said he preached Christ crucified and it's um, he wasn't on the cross for Paul either. He had already.
Resurrected. So we, we have to, it is a two part message and that's the beauty of the shroud. You have a whole pattern of bloodstains that speaks to the death of Jesus through crucifixion. Then you have this inex expectable image, which is, which is proof of life, you know, not just any kinda life, resurrection life.
And, um, so it's incredible. It's all there on one document.
Guy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, uh, let's leave it at that. Um, thank you for that, uh, for that perspective and what we're gonna see at the Shroud Conference, which you can find out more information at Shroud 2025 conference.com. Russ, thank you so much.
I'm definitely looking forward to hearing your talk and, uh, and we'll see you there. It's been a while. Absolutely. See you there, guy. [00:12:00] All right. Thank you.