Guy: [00:00:00] Hey Guy Powell here and welcome to the next episode of the Backstory on the Shroud of Turin. If you haven't already done so, please visit guy powell.com and sign up for more episodes. I am the author of the book, the Only Witness. It's a Christian historical fiction tracing a possible history of the shroud over the last two millennium.
I. Today we're speaking with Tom Dallas and he is a Christian apologist and researcher and speaker on the shroud. And, uh, let me tell you a little bit more about him. Uh, Dr. Tom Dallas. He is an evangelical scholar and Christian apologist, and he holds advanced degrees in theology and postgraduate studies in Jewish culture.
Hebrew and Shroud studies. And after 25 years as an award-winning filmmaker, Tom now [00:01:00] focuses on Theology and apologetics through his blog, uh, www dot tom's theology blog. And, uh, I've looked at that and it's pretty fascinating. I love all the topics, but, uh, let me stop talking and let's, uh, get going with Tom.
So Tom, uh, great to have you and welcome. So good to, uh, be able to spend some time with you today.
Tom: Well, thank you Guy. I appreciate it and I, uh, looking forward to this conversation.
Guy: Yeah, absolutely. So tell us your backstory on how you got involved with the shroud of Turin. Well,
Tom: as a, uh, Christian apologist, uh, presenting defense of the faith, uh, arguments for the existence of God, uh, and for the New Testament.
Uh, it was something I've always been interested in. And then as I studied, uh, Jewish culture and context through the Israel Bible Center, bringing that, that, that Jewish flavor to, uh, our evangelistic outreach, I. Was, uh, important to me. Uh, the shroud just naturally fit [00:02:00] in there. You know, I, I remember back when I was in college in the seventies, uh, when, uh, everyone was, uh, really excited about the shroud because of the, uh, stir, uh, findings and, and all.
Um, and so I kind of followed it a little bit then and then. Uh, came the, uh, 1988, uh, carbon 14, uh, fiasco and, uh, that, that all came about. And so, uh, uh, I didn't lose faith in the, in the shroud. It's just didn't have as much of an impact, uh, in my life. Uh, but then I. When I started reading things like what Joe Moreno did and, and, and others with, uh, with that little reserve, uh, of the, of the shroud and challenging the, uh, carbon 14 dating and then the new tests that have come out.
So we've got five different tests, uh, now, besides the Carbon 14, all of them putting it 2000 years of age. Uh, well now this has got my attention as [00:03:00] an apologist. And something to present to skeptics so that they can see something tangible and testable. In relation to our faith.
Guy: Yeah, absolutely. And that, uh, makes a lot of sense.
Now, you've, uh, spent a lot of time understanding Jewish burial practices and, uh, especially in the first century. And one of the things of course, that a lot of people forget, even Christians forget, is that Jesus Christ was not a Christian, so to speak. He was Jewish. Right. I mean, obviously he was Christian, but uh, he was Jewish.
And so a lot of the things that were going on at that time had to, uh, related to the, the Jewish, uh, traditions and rights, especially as it related to the burial. And then that of course, uh, you know, we can see some of those results as, uh, as they reflected in the shroud. So tell us a little bit of, first of all about, uh, Jewish, uh, first century burial practices.
Tom: Well, uh, first century Jewish burial practices. Uh, did vary depending on where you were at in Israel, but around [00:04:00] Jerusalem and Judea, they practiced secondary burials. So, uh, what you would, this is why if you go to Jerusalem today, you can find a lot of ary boxes. So, uh, it was not uncommon then for people to, you know, they would take, take the body, they would, they would wash it.
This was an act of kindness. Uh, they would bring spices and, uh, uh, perfumes and all, but that, that was not so much, it had nothing to do with, uh, embalming. It had to do with, uh, much like we would bring flowers. I. Uh, to a funeral today. And, and also that was, uh, what was customary. Uh, the, the family, the loved ones would take the body, usually wash it, uh, depending on the mode of death, uh, and then, uh, anoint it and then cover it and give it a year to decay.
And then gather up the bones and put them in an oser area or a bone box. Uh, that's, that was pretty prominent in the first century in [00:05:00] Jerusalem. Now, if you go to places like, uh, at, uh, Kuran, uh, that's something completely different there because now instead of burying people where they were facing towards Jerusalem, um, the, the, uh, society there had a falling out.
Uh, back in the Maccabean period with the, uh, uh, the priests and, and all of the temple. And so the senes and the. Uh, community of Kuran, they tend to bury north south. They did not have a secondary burial. Uh, they buried in the ground often with, uh, uh, coffins that, uh, had no bottoms. So their, their, uh, body would be against the ground as opposed to digging out niches or cave graves, uh, that you'd find in, uh, in, uh, elsewhere in Jerusalem, such as, uh, around, uh, Jericho or in, um, Jerusalem itself.
Guy: Yeah. Now you talked about the spices and aloes and other things, uh, that would, uh, accompany the burial and be part [00:06:00] of that. Uh, Nicodemus has said he was a member of the Sanhedrin, so he clearly knew the Jewish burial practices. Um, it's said that he brought, I think it's 75 pounds of, uh, burial spices and aloes and what have you.
Why do you, why did he bring so much? That sounds like an awful, an awful light of, uh, an awful lot of, uh, uh, stuff to bring.
Tom: It, it certainly would be for most people, but it would not be an abnormal amount of spices for a king. Uh, for a king, you would bring out the very best. Nicodemus and, uh, Joseph Veia both, uh.
Recognize that this was their Messiah, the king. And so that 75 pounds of spices that Nicodemus gets, uh, is exactly what we would expect a, a king, uh, during, uh, um. Uh, his burial. Uh, so you know that that would be a, a k kind of like, you know, if you, if you go to a funeral home [00:07:00] today and, and somebody is, is uh, you know, not, not well to do, you know, you might see a few flowers, but if they're someone who is of importance or someone well known, you know, the place is gonna be packed.
Uh, with the flowers and that's, that's really what the spices, uh, would represent there.
Guy: Yeah. Yeah. Would seem like, uh, that, and I'm maybe getting a little bit off, but that had to have been, uh, pretty expensive to, uh, so it was kind of like, you know, having a huge bouquet of flowers as opposed to a smaller one.
So, I mean, 75 pounds of anything is, is gotta be quite a bit.
Tom: Yeah. And, and I think that there's a, a connection 'cause one of the main. Uh, groups of, um, sellers of, uh, of, uh, meh and, uh, frankincense were the, uh, uh, ne and they lived, uh, south of the Dead Sea. They were an Arab, Arabic, uh, tribal people, but they were into trades.
[00:08:00] So, uh, although I cannot prove this, and I'm not suggesting it, but they also sold textiles, and we are told in the gospels that Nicodemus and, uh, Joseph Ofia go and get permission, first of all to, to get the body of Christ. Then conscious Pilate has to check to make sure that Jesus has died. This is, uh, after three o'clock in the afternoon.
They have to have it all done by. Uh, six o'clock, six 30, somewhere in that neighborhood. Uh, so they go and, and then it says that, that they went and they bought the shroud, you know, and they bought 75 pounds of, of, uh, spices and then brought that, uh, and then the body course is taken down and the uh, uh, uh, cerium is wrapped around his face and he's carried to the tomb.
All of that. You know, you're right there at the very, to, to do a, a Jewish, uh, [00:09:00] washing of the body and, and anointing. You're talking like an hour, hour and a half. Mm. Uh, you know, this is why the women are following and watching The Sabbath is approaching. They're gonna do all of that. Uh, come Sunday morning.
Um, but they had a, they had a very pleasant surprise.
Guy: Well, definitely a surprise. And, uh, I mean, yes. Wow. Exactly. Yes. Um, so, uh, how and how do, uh, the burial practices change over time? How did that, you know, go from the first century, maybe even up to, uh, today? How have they, how have they changed?
Tom: Oh, well, burial practices are constantly changing.
I mean, look at, in the United States, uh, we didn't embalm people. Until the Civil War, you can tell, uh, by looking at, uh, stones headstones, not just the, the carvings, but I mean, are they made out of slate? Uh, is this granite as opposed to marble? Uh, you know, those are all put dates, uh, in American, uh, ary practices.
Well, [00:10:00] in the first century, we kind of, we had some of that, especially when the Christians started influencing, uh, you know, ary practices as well. But, um, uh, you know, to the Jews, it was, it was always. You know, for the most part, uh, let's have this done within 24 hours. This is done by family members or close loved ones.
Uh, and, uh, we're gonna put the person into the, in, into the intunement. It's that first year that is, is really. Kind unique to, um, to that period. This is one of the reasons, well, it ends by 70 AD because we have the, the destruction of the temple and the expulsion of, of the Jews out of Israel. Mm. But um, up until then, you know, they would, they would do this secondary burial.
And uh, in Jewish theology, a person is atoning for their sins constantly and even in death. So when you die and your body [00:11:00] is, is, uh, decaying, you know that that is a type of atonement. Uh, for one's own personal sins. So the year later, whenever the, the body has decayed and the bones are left and they go in and they gather up the bones, we think that's kind of strange.
They certainly would think us, uh, embalming somebody and going and looking at them, uh, you know, at a funeral home would be strange. Uh. But what they would do, they saw that as a time of rejoicing because that means that their loved one is no longer suffering. And so, uh, they could be gathering up their bones.
They would put 'em in an ary box. In older times in, in Israel, what they would do is they would gather up those bones and put them in one spot with all the other family members. And this is where the expression they were gathered to their fathers, uh, comes from. So they literally took that. Or they took that very literally that they would gather up the bones and put 'em, uh, with their [00:12:00] forefathers.
Guy: Yeah. So, um, now was it usual for a, uh, shroud, uh, to be put over the body? Uh, was that typical or was that only then for a king, uh, like a kingly burial that, that Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus were trying to replicate with Jesus? Or, um, what, what can you talk about there?
Tom: Uh, it was extremely common. Uh, you either were buried in the ground with a coffin without a bottom.
Or you had a shroud? Uh, I mentioned the ne earlier. Uh, we have, um, a at, uh, um, carte cone, uh, which is the ruins of CC cone, uh, south of the Dead Sea. Uh, we discovered like 35 different 3,500 graves there, and they were all buried in leather shrouds. Uh, now these were not Jewish people, but we have to remember King Herod's mother.
Was, uh, an ean. [00:13:00] Um, so there, there is that, uh, cross-cultural, uh, impact. Um, so what they would normally do is they would lay out a shroud, you know, depending on the person's height. Uh, they would lay 'em on a burial bench. Um, they would have the, the strips, uh, the aia, the strips of cloth. That would be the binding, uh, underneath the shroud.
They would. Lay it open with, with, with a, um, you know, the, the still, the second half at the top lay the body on. Uh, if they, if they were doing any, uh, anointing, they would, uh, anoint them at that point. They would, um, uh, remove a face cloth. For the family to come in and, and pay final respects. The scene, uh, uh, saying goodbye, you know, what, what they would do, do and then take the remaining of the cloth and cover it over the body and then tie it.
Um, we don't have an abundance of [00:14:00] a linen shrouds because bodies. Wrapped in or linen, that's, that's wrapping a body that's decaying do not last long. Hmm. Um, they're going to, uh, uh, dissolve. They're going to, uh, petrify, uh, and, and all. And prior to, uh, the, the end of the first century, sometimes it was a simple linen.
Sometimes if, if the person was very wealthy, it would be a, a more elaborate. Type linen or more expensive linen. We know from the New Testament, this is exactly, uh, what, uh, what, what Jesus had very fine linen. It says, uh, in scripture later on, according to the Mishna, uh, we find that, um, it was more common for no matter what a, a person's, uh, status was, to have a more, uh, uh, less elaborate, uh, shroud, Lennon shroud.
Guy: Mm. Yeah. Interesting. Now you've written a, uh, a [00:15:00] paper, um, and I have another question, but first of all, tell us, uh, a little bit about your paper and then we can talk about, uh, some of the probability, uh, related calculations that might need to be done there.
Tom: Okay. So, uh, uh, you know, it's taken the, the course, uh, at, uh, the shroud studies at uh, uh, the Pontifical University.
And, um, so I wanted to write a paper. And, um, uh, what started off while I'll, I'll write with the idea of the Jewish burial practices, uh, you know, what develops from a. Uh, a, a five to 10 page concepts ends up 113 pages.
Guy: Been there,
Tom: done that. Yeah. And just kind of putting it, putting it in there, you know, uh, and, uh, really trying to approach it from an apologetic, uh, perspective.
So I covered the Jewish burial practices, um, uh, suggestions somewhat. Uh, a shroud would be based upon a person's height. Um. Uh, and, and again, we only know this from a few that we have, [00:16:00] uh, outside of the leather shrouds. We, we have, uh. Uh, several of those, but, um, uh, you know, I, so I wanted to look at it that way as an evangelical I and, and as a Christian, I wanted to see what the scripture said.
So we, I also go through, uh, the scriptural accounts, uh, in, uh, the gospels. Um, then are there any other. Possibilities of other references, uh, in the New Testament. Uh, I do think that Galatians chapter three verse one is a reference, uh, to the shroud, you know, that, uh, before whose eyes Jesus Christ evidently, uh, you know, crucified.
Well, well, how did these Galatians see, uh, the crucified Christ? Uh, it's either through the Eye of faith. Or they had something in front of them that, uh, they could see. And, uh, I think there's good evidence to say that that was, that was the, uh, uh, burial cloth of Christ, uh, at that time. Yeah, absolutely. So I had all that in there.
And then, um, I've been very interested [00:17:00] in, um, uh, Gary Habermas. Um, he gives, um, uh, five minimal facts for the resurrection of Christ. And these are based upon consensus. Uh, so it has to be where 90% of the scholars agree upon, uh, each of these, these, these facts. And so I said, okay, well let, let's do that to the shroud.
Let's find something where there's 90%, uh, of agreement. And so I took five things where there were 90% or more. Sometimes it's 95, sometimes it's 99%, uh, among, uh, uh, scholars and, and scientists and. And historians wanting to, to not just do the calculus there. I then added to that, um, I, I live in Lebanon, near Lebanon, Ohio, and there's a racetrack.
So, uh, a lot of people think in terms of odds. And so I said, well, let me, let me, uh, consider the odds here as well. And so, uh, I then did a, an odds calculus and then as a, uh, an apologist, I, I'm very interested in Bayesian. Uh, theorem and Bay [00:18:00] Bayesian probability. And, uh, Dr. Um, uh, Bruce, uh, Bais at, uh, uh, the Pontifical University and then it, uh, teaches mathematics at, uh, uh, the University of Tur.
Um, I, in his class, he brought in some of that, and that really caught my attention. So I thought, well, that'd be a good way to conclude this paper. And, um, so that's where we were at.
Guy: Yeah. So, uh, so what do you mean by, uh, uh, so how did the odds come out? How did the besian and how did the Besian probability, uh, affect that?
Okay. So we've got three
Tom: different types of mathematical, uh, probabilities and, um, a good way of looking at that. Uh, you know, you mentioned I, I'd done film for 25 years, made, uh, faith-based documentaries and, and also film has always been interesting to me. So suppose there's a great adventure movie. And, and you hear that this movie has come out and you get 10 of your friends together who you've always [00:19:00] talked to about films and you know that they're very in, uh, informed about films.
So they say nine of the 10 say, man, that is the best action movie I've ever seen. And one of 'em says, yeah, it was really good. But, you know, I, I, I can think of some better because there's always, there's always that guy. Uh, well, now you have. A consensus, uh, of, of people you know, that you, you trust on that.
Um, but now you do a little more research and you find out that, hey, you know, this action movie was, was directed by one of your favorite directors. And you have seen, I mean, the last 12 of his action movies were fantastic. Uh, you have to go way back to fine. The 13th one that wasn't. So now your odds are 12 one, uh, that this is going to be a great movie.
You've got a consensus of your friends, you've got, uh, your odds calculated [00:20:00] together, you know, you know, looking at and say, okay, this, this will be great. Basically, in prob is based upon new information that comes in. So you say, well, let me double check and see if there's a trailer. So you watch the trailer and you find that maybe there are three official trailers, and each one just draws you more and more into that film.
Well now you've, you've had personal experience by seeing a little bit of what this film is going to be like. So chances are this is gonna be a great movie. Uh, so when we add those things together. This is how we, we draw from a different, different perspectives. Um, so the consensus, I, I took five points, um, trying to look here real fast to see if I've got 'em up, um, on this, uh, thing.
Okay. So, so, so you go into a courtroom and I, so you have five, five, uh, witnesses. So maybe your first witness is an art expert, comes in and testifies, and your second, uh, uh, [00:21:00] witness is a, is a blood chemist. And comes in testifies. And your third, uh, uh, expert is a historian. Uh, then you have a, a fourth one comes in and maybe they're, uh, they know all about photography and, and what is real art and what isn't and what, what would actually make a, a photographic image, uh, on it.
And then on your, your fifth one, you bring in a textile expert. Well, all of these are. Experts together that draw a consensus for each one in their own field. And, uh, so that's, that's basically what I did. I took, took the five, you know, that, that the shroud is not, uh, done by painter or any mm-hmm. Art form or rubbing or something like that.
That's my art expert. Uh, we know that there was blood that's consistent with human blood. Uh, on the, on the shroud. Uh, you know, so we, that, that's about 95%, uh, uh, consensus, uh, in agreement with that, [00:22:00] um, uh, historian, uh, looking at the, uh, how the Byzantine art, uh, matches the shroud, you know, and the coins and, and, and, and all that was certain, well, that, you know, that's, uh, 90% in agreement.
Um, then, then, um, the photographer, um, you know, well. We know that the shroud is not just an image, it is a negative image, so that when you take a photo of it, the negative becomes a positive. You know, that's, uh, 99% of, uh, scholars, I. Uh, recognize this. And then, uh, the textile experts, you know, that, that this has got pollen on it and soil from Jerusalem and, uh, the type of weave and, and all of that, uh, combined.
So I took those five and we combined them and with each one. Your, your odds get stronger.
Guy: Mm.
Tom: So if you're playing, uh, roulette and I don't play roulette, but, so I had to, I [00:23:00] had to look this up. Uh, there are 38 spots on a roulette wheel. Uh, one zero, a double zero, and then 31 through 36 you, you put the little marble in there, it spins around your chances of getting at once, uh, is one outta 38.
Uh, that's simple odds. Hmm. But to get your number that you call five times in a row, well now your odds have completely shifted. Uh, uh, it becomes, uh, one out of 15 million to get five times in a row. Well, that has something to do with it, you know, that, that we have a consensus of, of, uh, agreement. Uh, we look at the odds.
And then I, and then introduce, uh, Bayesian probability. Um, and I took those five things, but I didn't wanna leave it with just the five. So I added 25 more, [00:24:00] uh, to that list. And then I did the opposite of what, what would it take for a four juror. Hmm. To be able to, to do this, not just five things, but 30 things that forger has to get right when you do the Bayesian calculus.
And again, I'm not smart enough to do the Bayesian calculus myself. I just took the, the raw data and put it into a program and let the program do the work for me. So when, when I, when I did that, uh, on those, those 30 things for a four drawer. To, to come up with, with, with that, I mean, how, uh, a for your, uh, 500 years before photography, uh, comes around, knows to make a positive negative, uh, uh, before we have the uh, uh, uh.
V eight. Uh, the VPA. Yeah. Yeah. VPA, uh, eight, uh, imagery, uh, where you're doing the shadowing and, and stuff to [00:25:00] be able to, to know, to do that, a forger who is, who is cu enough to be able to put blood on the object prior to making the image itself. Uh, and then a for juror who is so smart that they were able to make that on the, just that.
Outmost microns, uh, of that, you know, uh, so I have 30 of these, these things like that. The chances of that happening, the Bayesian probability told me it was one out of 10 to the 60th power. If you were to cover the earth with sand and then do it. 600 ine millionth, I think is what the term, but it's, it's, uh, uh, 600 with 27 zeros times around the earth cover with sand, and then to reach in and to pull out the one particle that you wanted.
Mm-hmm. Uh, this, this becomes, uh, I [00:26:00] think it's like one out of 10 to the 40th power. It actually then just becomes. Impossible. Yeah. It's, it's just, well, the numbers
Guy: are so big you can't even figure out what they are. Right. You can't, you can't, you
Tom: can't put your, your mind around, around that. But, um, that would be, that would be for the, for that forger to be able to do those 30 things.
But then the opposite is true. Uh, when you have the 30 things that the shroud does have. That, that we know, you know, uh, that speak to it being genuine. Uh, the odds were were, uh, 99.99999% accurate.
Guy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's, IM, it's impossible that it's, it's not,
Tom: no. Uh, you know, you have to, you have to explain. It's not enough to just dismiss information.
Mm-hmm. You have to be able to explain, you have to explain why that image is there. Yeah. You have to explain the blood, you have to explain the pollen. Um. [00:27:00] And, and all of that, you know, so I, I put all that in my paper and 113 pages later.
Guy: Well, you need that many pages just to get all the zeros. That's true.
Yeah. How funny. So, um, well, you know, it's interesting, uh, now as an apologist of course, uh, you know, when you present them with these kinds of calculations and facts, I'm curious, what, what kind of reaction do you get?
Tom: Uh, usually they don't, they don't respond. I, I, in, in, in preparation, I'm a moderator for a, a Facebook group that, that hosts civil debates between, uh, Christians, atheists and agnostics.
And, uh, I'm one of the Christian moderators. We have an atheist moderator and agnostic moderator. And, uh, um, we, we have rules. So people have to, you know, be friendly in their exchanges. I have put up recently some posts about the the shroud, [00:28:00] and they're just simply not responded to because it doesn't fit their, yeah.
They're, uh, their worldview. Yeah. Yeah. Their world. Right, right. Which, and atheism is a worldview, but, uh, uh, I have had them, when I've a when I, when I've talked about things like the fine tuning of the universe, you know, they'll, they'll retreat to a multiverse, uh, uh, universe, uh, thought. And then if that doesn't hold, because there's no evidence for a, a multiverse.
And even if you did, you still have to explain. Where does, where does all, where does all this come from? Mm-hmm. Uh, and all but, uh, you know, they're dealing with probabilities that are, that are roughly the same. And, uh, what I've heard from them on those kind of things is, uh. Well, there's still a chance I'm, I'm reminded of that movie, dumb and Dumber, so you're telling me there's a chance.
Guy: That's right. I wouldn't kiss you for a million dollars, so you're telling me there's a chance. That's
Tom: right. [00:29:00] Uh, and, and, uh, sometimes I, I, I get that kind of, kind of a response, but, um, skeptics are really great about science. Until you present the science.
Guy: Yeah. Yeah. How funny. Well, let me, uh, that that is a, that's a great explanation.
You know, and I hate to say it, I, uh, I studied Bayesian probability in, in college maybe for a couple of weeks. And, uh, it, it's, it's, uh, it's hard to. Explain, and not that I even remember it, but, uh, that was actually very good because it really does, you know, point out, you know, when you, you start even with five dimensions, but then you, there's really 30, there's probably 50 or a hundred dimensions right.
That you know that, that you really need to explain. And, and it's pretty, uh. It's, it, it really then, you know, gets down to that, that one grain of sand out of however deep that sand was. So, uh, fascinating. Um, now one, I, I did wanna go back, uh, to the, uh, the burial and then I think we're gonna have to close it [00:30:00] off.
But, um, what is your thinking as to whether the body, uh, Jesus' body was washed or not, uh, prior to being, uh, buried or, or entombed?
Tom: Well, he was a crucified man. So, uh, it was important to gather all that blood. Uh, and the mission talks about that if a person has suffered, uh, a violent death, they're going to gather that blood.
The blood is going to be buried with them. I don't think they had enough time. Uh, if they did anything, it would've been a very simple, uh, uh, washing. Um, but I think what they, what they had enough time to do was to get the materials, get permission to get the body, carry the body to the grave. Uh, to go in and to place the, uh, spices around the body, cover up the body, uh, to take the face cloth.
They would not have left a bloodied face cloth on, on a, a corpse that would've been disrespectful. [00:31:00] Uh, they might have tied it, uh, as something they could have put it off to the side. Uh, we're not, we're not 100% told. We're told that when John goes in there. He sees it. Um, here's a thought at young ur, the high priest would put on special garments, would go in and sacrifice the goat, and his garments would be covered with blood, and then he would fold those garments and set 'em aside.
I do think whenever, uh, John goes and he sees that face cloth folded and laid aside. And, and all that's a testimonial to Jesus being the high priest, uh, for our Day of Atonement.
Guy: Yeah. Yeah. I, well, I, um, and I don't know if you've read anything from, uh, Caesar Barta, but he really goes into detail in the timelines of, uh, of that whole process there.
And, and, uh, it certainly gets. Uh, it, it, it certainly seems like it gets set aside. I mean, [00:32:00] even the writing in John, uh, talks about it being separate from the other cloths, and I don't remember the exact wording, but, uh, certainly, you know, that's the case. Um, you know, one thing too though, um, so they collect the blood, uh, as much as possible, so they put the face cloth over his face.
To, uh, you know, so that the blood doesn't get lost. It, it would seem like there would've been blood everywhere. Yeah. I mean, there would've been blood on the ground. And so would they have tried to collect that as well, or would they just get what they could and then, you know, carry or transport the body in some fashion over to the tomb?
Um,
Tom: they, they would gather as much as they could. Hmm. Uh, if you remember, uh, and, and Gibson did a great job on this and the passion. Uh, where, uh, Mary is, is taking those cloths and wiping up the blood, off the stones where, where Jesus has been beaten, uh, that that would've been, uh, [00:33:00] something that the Jews would've done.
Um. So there, there could have been some other cloths that were involved. Uh, with that. There's definitely the binding cloths, you know, uh, with that. And contrary to what some people think dead bodies do bleed. You know, when you put holes in a body, uh, blood comes out. I. Uh, now it doesn't come out like, like it does.
And, and of course that's one of the things about the shroud too, is we are able to determine that there's active blood and postmortem blood. Mm. Uh, because of clotting and, and, and all, and it would take about a, depending on how deep the wounds were, uh, obviously when you, when you have wounds in the side that go the way through or, or in the side or.
Uh, of the body and then in the hands or in the palms. Um, you would, you would definitely have, um, more blood there as the, and the urging would've caused a great deal of blood and they would've tried to gather that up, but, um, some of that [00:34:00] would've dried Mm, while he's up on the cross.
Guy: Mm-hmm. Right. Right.
Yeah. Very interesting. Well, and that, that, you know, it all makes sense and it also, you know, the other thing is it correlates with the, with the writings that are in the four gospels about the, uh, the burial and the, and the, and or the, the passion. Um. Tom, I'd love to keep going, but I've unfortunately, uh, you know, there's only so much time in the day, and, uh, I could, we, I think we could talk for hours.
Uh, you've done some amazing work and, uh, really very interesting in terms of understanding the Jewish burial practices and, uh, and then how Jesus may have been buried and how it's then reflected in, in the shroud and, uh, and some of the other, uh, talking, you know, uh, writings from the, from the gospels. Uh, very, very interesting.
Really appreciate it.
Tom: Well,
Guy: thank you.
Tom: And, uh, anyone who wants to read the paper, it's up on my website, uh, on my blog site. It's free. I don't charge for anything. Uh, you just go down, you see it's called Sacred Threads. And, um, [00:35:00] uh, you know, and you're invited to, to read it and let me know what you think.
Guy: Yeah, absolutely.
Um, I've looked through a little bit of it. I didn't get all the way through it. I apologize for that, but I definitely will. It's, uh, it's definitely an important, uh, piece of the puzzle as we're all shrouds trying to understand, you know, all of the different pieces that go together that's, uh, represented in the shroud.
Tom, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. And, uh, and again, what is the, uh, the, the, the URL for your, for your website for www.
Tom: Tom's Theology, all one word, um, dot blog. So, uh, Tom's
Guy: theology blog. Fantastic Tom's Theology blog. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And for the audience, uh, certainly please stay tuned for many other videos in this, uh, series of the backstory on the shroud of Turin.
And if you like this video. Please rate it with five stores. Tom, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank [00:36:00] you, guy. I appreciate it too.