Guy: [00:00:00] Hey Guy Powell here and welcome to the next episode of the Backstory on the Shroud of Turin. If you haven't al already done so, please visit guy powell.com and sign up for more of these episodes. As you all know, I'm the in the author of The Only Witness, which is a Christian historical fiction tracing a possible history of the shroud.
Over the last two millennia. Today I'm gonna be speaking about Matt Cason and this, uh, is gonna be about the resurrection, which is perfect for talking about the shroud of turrin and the most important event probably in all of Christianity. And, uh, it'll be a great talk for our Easter, Easter holiday coming up.
So, Matt, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Matt: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I'm grateful to be a talk, be talking about this [00:01:00] and um, just a little bit of background on myself. Currently I'm the associate pastor at St. James United Methodist Church in, uh, north Atlanta, Georgia, near Buckhead. Um, and I'm a local boy.
I grew up in Woodstock, just about an hour north. And I grew up in the United Methodist Church. Uh, I went to the Methodist Church in Kennesaw. And um, I was very active growing up. My mom was a very frequent, uh, goer to all the events and to bible studies and stuff, and she really instilled that in, uh, my family.
So, uh, I got the opportunity to serve in different ministries growing up, um, but also, uh, learn how God was calling me to ministry along the way. It wasn't something that I felt led to when I was in, uh, middle school. It happened in my, uh, late twenties, um, because I was trying to get a gauge of where God was calling for me to [00:02:00] serve, and everything kept pointing back to the church.
And, um, so I decided to answer the call and, uh, went to Asbury Seminary and that's where my call sort of just got, uh, just got flushed out. Um, and it was, I. It was a, a big blessing and I experienced a lot of nurturing and a, a lot of ways that God was building me up and preparing me for my ministry ahead.
So, um, it's, it's been a, a whirlwind. I mean, if you asked, I. 18-year-old Matt, what he would be doing by the time he is in his mid thirties ministry would be the last thing on the agenda. So, um, I experienced God's grace helped bring me to this point, and, and, and I'm so grateful to continue to serve God and serve God's church in, in, uh, numerous ways and continuing to grow moving
Guy: forward.
Wonderful. Well, uh, yeah, thanks for [00:03:00] that. You know, it's funny how your mom has, uh, such an influence over your, uh, over your religion and well over everything, but certainly over, over your participation in church. My mom was the same way for me, and we would go to church. Uh, unfortunately my dad didn't. He went to, uh, he went to the golf course while we were at church, but, um.
In any case, uh, you know, now, uh, same with you, although you went on to, uh, in, into the ministry. But, um, you know, church is definitely a, a very important part of, of both of our lives because of our moms probably.
Matt: Mm-hmm. Yes. And I mean, one of the things I always say, she was sort of the bedrock for our family's faith, um, because she really understood how, um, God is, uh, is always with us.
How God is always loving us and God's always seeking to guide us. And so those are sort of the pillars that helped me grow in my faith and withstand any sort of difficult times that I've gone through.
So.
Guy: Yeah, absolutely. [00:04:00] So you're associate pastor at, uh, St. James United Methodist. Tell us a little bit about, uh, St. James.
Matt: So, St. James United Methodist Church, the best way I could describe it is that it's a very, uh, loving place. I. That you can have the chance to get connected. Um, we have people from all ages, uh, different walks of life that seek to thrive and grow with one another. The big part of the space is being able to know each other's names in a lot of, uh, big churches.
Um, and. There's not a disparage, big churches, but in a lot of churches it's hard to know people on a very interpersonal level, on a name level. And for St. James, you know, the connection is what it thrives on. It's, it's the lifeblood helping each other grow, but also, um, helping the next generation grow. So it is one of the big phrases that we have at, uh, St.
James is, [00:05:00] uh, putting belief into action, and that's what. St. James seeks to live out so that not only do we grow as disciples, but we serve as disciples in the church. And so it's a great place for people of all ages to have a spiritual home, but also a spiritual community.
Guy: Yeah, yeah, definitely is. And it's the right, I, um, as a member there.
I, I think you're absolutely right. And, um, it's definitely the right size, not too big, not too small, and it has a lot to offer. Uh, for everyone. And, uh, whether you're a, a two or 3-year-old or you're a 70, 80 or a 90-year-old, it, uh, it really does, uh, uh, go the gamut. So, um, we're getting ready for Easter and, uh, so what kind of personal reflections do you have on, uh, on Easter and the resurrection?
Matt: I would say for myself, my understanding, uh, in preparing for Easter is, has changed, um, over the years. When I was growing up, lent wasn't necessarily the focus. [00:06:00] Uh, a lot of the focus was. The Easter day, the day of, uh, Jesus' Resurrection. But one of the things that I've really grown to appreciate more, and it it's really expanded itself, um, as I started getting into ministry, was the preparation aspect.
Um, we have the season of Lent coming up and preparation, preparing ourselves and understanding who we are. You know, we are created by God. We are loved by God. We do not have true fulfillment in life without God. And also we are imperfect people in need of God. And that sense of preparing ourselves for, um, the day of Easter and understanding what the full promise of God is.
So for me, it's. I really, uh, try to be intentional as I can with the Lenin season because it is a time of preparing ourselves before God, before you know [00:07:00] Christ's death on the cross. And you know, that preparation leads into the mem remembrance. We remember Monday, Thursday, remember, uh, good Friday when we, uh, recall what Christ did for us, how he served as the example for us, uh, to follow with our own lives.
How Christ Pro lived the life proclaiming and teaching the Kingdom of Heaven, how he served others so we could experience God's love and how Christ presented a new way for us to follow a life where there is, um, the assurance of forgiveness of our sins and how we can be eternally connected with God, uh, through the sun and, um.
You know, as, as we prepare and remember, it leads to that sense of celebration. Celebrating the risen savior the day that is ahead. When death is no longer, uh, the end, you know, there is eternal life. We are forgiven and there is assurance and [00:08:00] hope in God's promises. So I, I like placing it out in, you know, those three parts because it is a journey.
It's a small segment of the long journey that we live called life. And um, I think it's a telling sign of how, you know, we can always seek to. Grow and be prepared, uh, for a wonderful day of Christ return.
Guy: Yeah, absolutely. And and to your point about the hope, when I think back to, uh, the actual crucifixion and the, and, uh, seeing being one of those that, you know, that, that saw Christ on the cross and saw the suffering that he went through as his, uh, throughout the whole passion.
And then to see the, um, the cross, but then to see the empty tomb. And all of a sudden, you know, the despair and the suffering and the, the desperation that they must have felt for the, um, for that moment. And then all of a sudden the tomb is empty. And uh, you know, and then the joy that came to the women that went to the tomb and then.
Peter and John as they ran to the [00:09:00] tomb and saw the empty tomb. It, uh, it really is, uh, an amazing thing. So, uh, why do you see, uh, the resurrection as being so important, such an important part of Christianity? I think that's a great
Matt: question. The best way that I could, uh, express it, it's the culmination of, you know, God's purpose in, or Christ's purpose in God's plan, um, without the resurrection.
God's promises aren't made known, uh, to the people who witness it in creation. You know, without it, we don't understand how God is active. Thinking about death, and you touched on it just a little bit, death was always viewed as the end. There is nothing behind it. There is, there's nothing beyond it. But in the resurrection, it shows truth in the promise of eternal life because in Christ it's shown, you know, not only does Christ, uh, get resurrected, but Christ goes to live with the Father, [00:10:00] as, you know, God's right hand.
And it shows how God's glory is, uh, present. You know, thinking about the, uh. The, the way that it was done, it wasn't like Christ died in private, you know, he didn't die in a, in a random house off to the side with only like two or three people. It was experienced by multitudes. And in the same token, uh.
Christ Resurrection was witnessed by multitudes, um, throughout the region. So for me, that's, that's why the resurrection is so important because it really points into how god's I. Promises hold true. They hold true even beyond death. And there's the chance that all can be, um, brought together, you know, in God and eternal life after death.
And that's, that's the joy that we can live into. That's the celebration, um, [00:11:00] because of what Christ. First bid and experience and showed to the world,
Guy: right? And that, that one, uh, I don't know if you'd call it a miracle, certainly it was. But um, now Christ also performed many other miracles while, while he was alive.
And yet those don't really have the meaning that, uh, the resurrection does. Uh, any thoughts on that?
Matt: I think that's, I think that's a good question to ask. I mean, because you can't really ignore the other miracles. Um, especially in Christ's ministry because. Christ's miracles show the glory of God. It shows the glory of the kingdom of heaven in wonderful ways.
I mean, think about some of the miracles we had, um, people who were able to walk, we had lepers who had their boils healed. We had the miracle of the five loaves and two fish, and those, those all have a special purpose. But in the sense of thinking, thinking about [00:12:00] Christ dying. There wasn't any sort of hope attached to that.
There wasn't any sort of feeling that, okay, my last supper with the Lord is just a temporary thing. Because even when Christ predicted his death multiple times, it's not like people took it to. Okay. Yeah. He's dying, but I can see him in three days. You know, it was, that really shows the finality that they viewed death as being, and why this is so significant is all the, uh, the effects that came with Christ's death, but also came in the resurrection.
It was, it was a twofold act that, uh, goes, it, it expanded across all of creation and that's, that's where. For me, uh, and for Christianity as a whole, that's where the promises of God lied. That's, that's sort of like the anchor in the whole thing because we have the assurance because of [00:13:00] what was seen, what was witnessed, and what has been experienced throughout creation.
And one of the other things too is, is. As the, uh, as people started to understand Christ's resurrection, you know, they started to understand this older Old Testament scriptures like the Psalms and the, and Isaiah and the promises of God way back when, and it sort of helps, uh, cement it to even be more as of an assurance.
Uh, this actually happening in the fruit that came from it, you know, through God's active work in creation.
Guy: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's funny, we, um, had a dinner with, uh, one of the Jewish, uh, uh, congregations here in Atlanta a few weeks ago, and, uh, one of the questions that was brought up is, uh, what is the Jewish thinking on heaven?
And, and the answer that we got from the rabbi was kind of, uh, interesting because it was kind of a wishy-washy, uh, you know, there, there really [00:14:00] wasn't a, you know, a, a strong understanding or a strong, um, you know, connection with heaven. And yet the resurrection for Christianity is so important because it then, you know, it really does kind of show that there is a heaven, that there is an afterlife that we do have.
You know, a greater purpose, uh, that God has seen for us. Um, and, uh, it, it makes, you know, it really makes everything that we're doing in Christianity be so be so meaningful.
Matt: And one of the things that, you know, I wanna make sure to share when it comes to, uh, the, the Jewish, uh, tradition is, you know, one of the focuses that I really appreciate is, you know, they're, they're part of, uh, focusing on the here and now.
You know, the action now, um, the congregation that we got to meet with, you know, very socially, uh, justice minded, you know, living lives of holiness and, and things like that, but did paint a picture of, you know, um, the promise. The promise that Christ. [00:15:00] Presented, um, and what God proclaimed in creation and how it does serve as that, that anchor for our faith.
Guy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, uh, absolutely an anchor. And, uh, and it was really, uh, and I think you're right. I mean the, the, the folks that we met with, uh, you know, very, uh. Very understanding and very, you know, very faithful in, in the Jewish faith. And then, you know, I think Jesus kind of bridges that gap, you know, for all of us to, uh, take us from Judaism into, uh, Christianity.
So, uh, Easter's a huge celebration for, uh, for Christians. Um, so, uh, you know, tell us, uh, a little bit about, uh, what that's all about.
Matt: Yeah. I mean, it's a celebration of the risen Christ. It's the culmination of all that Christ did and a culmination of what is to come as well and how we all can live into this hope.
We can all, all live [00:16:00] into this assurance and knowing that we can be fully connected with God, we can experience that eternal joy in God's promises. There is hope. Beyond death. And we also know the expansiveness of God's love in creation so much that God gave his only son. You know, if, if we try to apply it in our own circumstance, it would not, it would not even scratch the surface of the meaning beyond that.
God giving of himself as the triune God and being able to just know that sense of forgiveness, the forgiveness from God. Um, sometimes we find it tough to understand forgiveness, especially in Christian tradition because we, we like to, uh, hold on to the idea that, you know what we do. Um, will always be with us.
It'll always hurt us. Um, it'll always be a burden around our necks, [00:17:00] but in Christ, in the blood of Christ, that was shed remembering that forgiveness and that sense of, you know, eternal forgiveness being made, um, through Christ's resurrection is so. Helpful for us to understand the meaning of grace, to be able to understand the expansiveness of God's grace that is available to all.
And that's why it's a celebration. That's why it's the good news, um, because it's news that's not just kept to a small group of people. It's news that is called to be shared in the world. Share what they've seen. That's, I mean, that's what, uh, the great Commission talked about, but it also experiences, uh, it also shares for the person, um, the new path.
As much as we talk about, you know, past sin and feeling stuck, it also paints the new path in Christ that is ahead where we can experience all of God's promises, but also that sense of peace, uh, [00:18:00] love and uh, uh, joy. Eternally and each and every day. And I think that, especially right now, that is such an important part to remember how our spirits need to hear this good news so that we can experience that, those eternal things in God.
Guy: Yeah, absolutely. And um, you know, one thing when I think about, uh, non-Christians versus, uh, Christians, of course we, part of our faith is that, uh, the resurrection took place and, you know, one of the pillars of our faith, basically. Um, but for the non-Christian, what kind of proofs, uh, are there that, uh, that the resurrection actually took place?
Matt: I mean, the first thing that I would always point toward is the gospels. And I say that too with, um, wanting to be able to provide some context, especially when it comes to authorship, uh, because it's not like these books were. Written, um, solely by a man with a wild imagination. It was [00:19:00] based off of the testimony and the experiences that they firsthand have gotten, but also through the words of other people as well.
So it's different from reading a book from Ernest Simmons Way, um. But the gospels, they weren't conjoined or written at the same time. It was written from these different perspectives and from these different testimonies with not a real like direct connection in mind or with any sort of agenda in mind, but it highlights, uh, the stories of people that experienced Christ living and being.
And dying and being resurrected, um, and what it all culminated and what came out from it. And if, if you think about just how, how much that has, sort of how the gospel has been able to stay relevant and stay true [00:20:00] for over 2000 years. I mean, that's. Not the, you can't say there are a lot of stories that, or a lot of historical events that can even.
Last that long, but it gives credibility these stories and the connection is drawn between these gospels. It creates that sense of credibility over what was actually experienced Christ's death on the cross, a public death, the empty tomb, Christ's appearing before the disciples and before the people, and it was public to all.
It was out in the open and Christ. In in scripture it says that Christ continued to be witnessed by the masses in the 40 plus days following Easter as well. And scripture shared that he was present throughout the region. So, and if we think about the region, that doesn't mean just Christians, but it also could mean the non-believers and things like that.
And you know, [00:21:00] that sense of presence, that sense of. Christ being among, uh, the people of the world to show his, you know, the holes in his hands, the, the wound in his side. And, uh, I mean, we could only imagine what other characteristics that were being shown, you know, from the effects of his, uh, beating and death.
But it gives a sense of. Affirmation it, it gives a sense of God's spirit at work through the resurrected Christ and being shown not only to the disciples, but to the Apostle Paul and helping spearhead the church through these testimonies, through these words that show that God has, that Jesus has returned.
Uh, there is assurance in that too.
Guy: Yeah, absolutely. And, um, uh, you know, I, as you were talking, I was thinking, uh, of, of maybe one or two others, which are related to what you mentioned. I think one of them is the [00:22:00] fulfillment of the Old Testament, especially Isaiah, but there's other verses as well that.
Speaks to the, uh, uh, you know, the resurrection and, um, and the coming of, you know, of the Lord, so to speak. And, um, I think that's one that says, wow, you know, here we have these writings in, uh, especially in Isaiah, and then all of a sudden, you know, those are, those were foretold and then they actually take place.
And, uh, you know, and I think that's a, that's a big one. I think the other one too is that what. Started out, you know, with a, with Jesus basically bringing on 12 disciples and they were just ordinary people. And those 12, and then of course Paul, a little later on those 12, those 13 were able to spread the word to the rest of the world.
Where now it's billions of people that are, uh, you know, that are. Uh, that follow Christianity and are call themselves Christians. And, [00:23:00] and that I think is another proof that, you know, had the resurrection not taken place, those, their ability to have convinced and taught and, you know, and, and brought them and evangelized them, would never have been able to take place had the, uh, resurrection not not taken place.
So, uh, you know, it, it is just amazing how many little pieces, or even big pieces, I think fall into that, uh, the proof of the resurrection, so to speak.
Matt: Well, and also thinking that just the conviction on people's spirits, I mean, it's, it, it's not like, uh, the disciples were the clean cut, um. Uh, men that would just be like, okay, yeah, I'll, I'll be good and I'll follow these things.
And if we look at scripture, there was some, there was a lot of questioning you, you saw, um, there was denial. You, I mean, Peter by himself, he's, he's a case study. Um, just talking about how you can [00:24:00] be an unfaithful disciple just by what you say and what you do. But yeah, I, I love being able to. Read the book of Acts and seeing the church grow, um, not only through them, but also through the Apostle Paul because of that, that change, that spiritual change that led them to new identities that were solely focused on Christ.
And you know, there's a, there's a deep sense of faith with that too because, you know, with with faith there is the assurance of things, but there's also the sense of like, it's not just me. It's not just me doing it for myself, because if it was fully for themselves as, as much as we see throughout history, those things empire like empires, you know, those sort of things fall apart.
But Christ, you know, Christ Church continues to grow and build. Mm. And uh, and disciples are made.
Guy: Yeah, absolutely. So how would you bring the message of, uh, of [00:25:00] Easter and the importance of Easter and the resurrection to, to children, you know, so Jesus, uh, revered the children and his teachings, he spoke quite often of the children.
So how do you, what do you think is the best way to bring the message of Easter and the resurrection to, you know, somebody that's maybe, you know, five years old or 10 years old? I think that's a good question.
Matt: One of the things. That I would try to help them focus all is just the depth of God's love and explaining the depth of it is important because, you know, when we think of love, we think, I mean, especially for kids, they may think of it as like a hug or, uh, they do nice things.
Um, but there's, as we know with love, especially when it comes to this Easter event. There's death because there is sin. And explaining sin to anybody is not easy. But for a child, the thing I [00:26:00] would always say is that we make mistakes. We don't do things that are nice. We don't do things that are good, and these things cause us to separate ourselves from God's love.
But there is good news because Jesus died for those sins. He died for the ways that we didn't always love others. And he did that because Jesus loved us. And with that assurance, we can always be forgiven by God. We can always seek forgiveness and know that we are forgiven. And with that, we also know God's love.
God's love Will is always with us. God's love will always be with us. We can never, God will never abandon us. God will never cast us off to the side, and we have that sense of peace. We have that sense of joy, knowing that even if we are having tough [00:27:00] times. God's love is with us.
Guy: Yeah. Yeah. That's, uh, that is so true.
And, uh, uh, and, you know, and, and being able to form the impressions of what Easter and the resurrection is for younger folks so that they can, I. Have that with them as they grow in their faith and they grow in their, just their general maturity that, you know, that, that, that message can get across. You know, one thing that, uh, that I think about, and you know, obviously, uh, I've spent a lot of time studying the shroud and the shroud of Turin.
Uh, what do you think the, uh, the first. Easter. So one year after, uh, uh, Christ's resurrection. What do you think that was like? Um, in the early days, maybe not even the first, but even the first couple of years or tens of years, what do you think that was like for them?
Matt: I was talking about, I. Uh, this thought with my wife yesterday and she says, well, we definitely weren't hiding little plastic eggs.
[00:28:00] So, which I was like, that's, I'll attribute that to you. 'cause that's a great thought. Um, but I would think so that, uh, they were just trying to make sense of the death of all that happened. I, I mean, thinking about early Christian gatherings, it wasn't big pomp and circumstance. It happened in the, uh, secluded ness of people's homes.
And, um, you know, public worship wasn't always the big thing at that time, especially when it was a, a new, uh, spiritual faith growing, um, in, in that time and in that region. But I could imagine. They were still like sharing those testimonies and getting the grasp of what all was happening, what this meant, you know, at that time they're probably going back through the Old Testament prophecies like you talked about, and understanding how Christ's uh, life was the fulfillment of these [00:29:00] words spoken thousands of years before.
But I also. Have a sense that they were really wanting to have that focus on living out lives as Christ called them to be. There was the instructions, there was the sense of, you know, radical love, um, reaching out to the neighbor, reaching out to the enemy, uh, accepting people in and looking to continue to be faithful and that resurrection event.
As as, I mean, as profound as it could be, one year after the fact, there was this sense of the assurance because of what people saw, what people experienced, and you know, they, they bonded over that. And I could only imagine too that they were gathering together, um, in, in the first century over communion very, very often because that was the pace that they could remember what Christ gave.[00:30:00]
You know, God's. His body and blood for them and the hope of that resurrection that gives them the joy to live these news lives, these, these lives of, uh, transformed selves. And, um, I, I think it sounds like it was, it sounds like it would be beautiful if I could travel back in time and experience that I could imagine it being like a, like a small group.
Time. Mm-hmm. Or, uh, or a, uh, a Sunday school class just gathering together and nurturing each other and being nurtured by God's spirit in a wonderful way. And, uh, I, I think that is, I. That is something that we need to reflect on in our own season, especially when it's so easy to get disconnected and, uh, pulled in so many different directions.
You know, thinking about the early church, thinking about how they celebrated [00:31:00] Easter and celebrated this. News, this recent news and how we can live with that news as, as not just old things from 2000 years ago, but as active and meaningful today.
Guy: Yeah. You know, when you think about it too, there, there wasn't any, there weren't any church buildings or anything like that.
Um, you know, they were, as, as you mentioned, they were meeting in homes and, and what have you. They certainly weren't meeting in the synagogue. Uh, you know, because the, the Jews were basically out to get them and certainly the Romans at some point were also out to get them. And, um. Uh, and, you know, and, and so, uh, you know, Peter and many of the disciples actually left Jerusalem to go out and evangelize.
So here they are as an individual, you know, traveling up to Mesopotamia or up to Turkey or wherever it happened to be. And, uh, you know, being one or two of the. Early, early disciples, uh, that would must have been [00:32:00] just an incredible experience. And then, um, you know, and then being able to use that as a way to evangelize, I guess as well is to celebrate or to remember, maybe not celebrate, but remember the resurrection.
And then as that progressed over time to become a, you know, a major piece of the celebration of, uh, for all of all of Christianity.
Matt: Yeah. And, and speaking about just the, the context at the time, I mean, it's, it's always interesting just seeing how the world around them responded, uh, to those gatherings because it, it wasn't focused on, you know, multiple gods or picking gods or, you know, uh, you know, sacrificial offerings or things like that.
It was. Focused on simple things. It was, it was focused on bread and cup. Mm-hmm. It was focused on being together. It was, it was focused on living lives as Christ called. And, [00:33:00] um, it was, it was one where it was more about the humility, more about living in, um, living in that sense of. Peace that they personally found in God and that fulfillment that was not aware, or it was not a thing in the Roman Empire Times, or you know, or around these cultures that were focused on pagan rituals.
So it provided something more that the world could not give. You know, there was, it was beyond, it was only something that could be given or received through Christ.
Guy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I, I could, I could talk for another or ask questions and, and, uh, discuss with you for another hour or two, but, uh, unfortunately we've gotta, uh, come to a close.
I want to thank you, uh, so much, your perspectives, uh, our incredibly valuable and as we approach the, you know, the, the Lenten season and when this actually airs, right before Easter. Um, uh, uh, [00:34:00] this message will certainly be very important for, for Christians and for non-Christians, so I definitely appreciate all you've, uh, all you've brought forward
Matt: today.
Well, thank you for having me, and I am so grateful for this opportunity to be on my first podcast, so thank you
Guy: for that. Well, hopefully it'll be more than one. We'll do one maybe for Christmas, then next year with you. All right, sounds good. All right, Matt, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And, uh, for the audience.
Of course, uh, please stay tuned for many other videos in this. Series on the backstory of the Rado Turin. And if you'd like to please visit guy powell.com and sign up for more episodes. And if you like this one, of course, please rate it with five stars. And I didn't mention or ask what is the, uh, URL for, uh, St.
James? Where can they reach you?
Matt: Uh, so are you looking for my email or just looking for No, just,
Guy: uh, just the, uh,
Matt: URL, the St. James URL. And so if you wanna learn more about St. James United Methodist Church here in Atlanta, you can, uh, [00:35:00] type in STT as in tango, james atlanta.org and you can get information about ways to connect, uh, some of our ministry offerings and, um, our worship times as well.
We'd love to have you join us.
Guy: Yeah, absolutely. And uh, I think your email is on there. I don't wanna necessarily give it out unless it's already public, but, uh, certainly they can reach you through the contact form at, uh, St. St James uh, atlanta.org and, uh, go from there. Matt, again, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
Thank you.