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Ladies and gentlemen, Can I please have your attention? This is my final MATHS related interview. Are they talking about me? She's like, yep.
It was Australia's reactions because a lot of drama and they never got it.
It just went nuts.
Hello and welcome back to another episode off back to reality. I'm Selena and I'm Tany and today we have, for the first time, in fact to reality history, our first ever non reality ya Pista. I big for us, very excited because this is not what I think you guys would expect from us. If he's ever made it to Legal Talk, which I am immersed in, you would probably recognize his face, if not his iconic mustache.
Yeah.
But what I love about this particular guess is I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. I'm the kid that sit next to Tarni and copy her work. But the way this person explains things, he just it's so simple. It's like if I can understand anyone can understand it. He breaks down celebrity cases like the Justin Baldoni and like Lively from like how to Claim Insurance claim if a Hurricane's drunk?
Yeah, like with Naughty.
Stars mass So we thought, why not have the man, the myth, the legend. Jihan Kalanta Welcome, what an intro.
Thank you for having me. Can you guys follow me everywhere?
Let's get into it.
I think it'd be great to give the audience a little context about you and how you got started in the legal industry, because it's personally something I'm quite interested in and I just love to hear how you got there and then the transition to this social TikTok ozzy lawyer space.
Love it.
Yeah, look up. So I've been a lawyer now for I think thirteen years. I kind of came into it after a career in banking. I didn't really like it, and I went to law school post banking, and I kind of fell sort of into this practice of criminal defense, family law, sort of clients that have faces and clients that have stories, and I really enjoyed it. And I've been doing that for pretty much NonStop for thirteen years, in different capacities, in different practice areas. But about five
years ago. You guys probably remember during the COVID nineteen pandemic. Essentially we had a huge reshuffle here in Sydney and every day at eleven am, the Premier would come out and be like, hey, these many people are dead, this people are sick. Here's a new law by and would bail And I was like, well, that didn't make any sense to me, and my practice is on hold, I've got stuff. It was really stressful, and so I thought, I'm going to explain sort of how these rules work.
And the first thing I did was I read a really detailed LinkedIn article like no one read, no one cared at all. And then there was this thing called TikTok that was kind of popping off. Kids were doing dances on it. I thought I might explain like how a LGAF concern works on TikTok, and like overnight I got a hundred followers, which was crazy crazy. Yeah, that was like unimaginable to me. So I just kept at it, and slowly, over time, I've come to understand that people
really need access to the justice system. They feel a little bit overwhelmed, and I don't think that we as lawyers are particularly good at communicating what information people need. And so I've created sort of my TikTok channel and across TikTok, install YouTube, sort of LinkedIn and other channels kind of explaining the lord, making it a bit simpler because it is complicated, but you don't need to know the complicated part. You just need to understand the dynamics.
And so that's what I try to do in my channels.
Yeah, we were talking off Mike before.
How I think when you think of like the legal system or like lawyers, you think it's like a faceless person.
You're like, where would you actually go to look.
For someone and like what like specializing field that they are like you literally I'll go and look on TikTok like lawyer for X, Whereas before you just would be googling and the website like there's no one's faces on there. You don't know who the person is representing you. And it's especially when it's quite like personal things or whatever the issue is, it's really hard to be like am I gonna trust this person too?
Am I going to go to jail?
Or like what you've made? And this is a story I always tell. We had a client that basically found us online and he came to a conference. And this is before the TikTok thing blew up. And I always ask people like, why did you choose our law firm? And he goes, well, it's really funny. I went to like five different law firm sites because I was it was an ip technical dispute about who owns the rights
to something. And he goes, I went to five different websites and four of them had like these lawyers like looking sad and angry, like you know, like, and then there was your website and you seem like you were smiling and happy and normal and like, I just wanted to chatter that someone. Yeah, And so I realized that from that experience that people there's going to be people who see a smiley, happy, layering thing. That person doesn't get it. They shouldn't, they don't, you know, they're not
right lawyer for me. But there'll be other people who, just like you've said, they want to speak to a human, they want to see a face, They want to get someone who understands things, watches reality TV and is like a normal human being. And so I think it's really important to spread the message that lawyers come in all stripes, including weirdos like myself with funky mustaches.
Yeah.
No, we'll speak of reality TV. Do you watch reality TV? And what's your what's your favorite show?
In our household? A lot of reality TV is watched mostly by my beloved wife.
Your wife is beautiful, by the way, we love her.
Big shout out to Hannah. She she should really be here. She's she's the reality TV champion of the house. But a lot of it is watched over my shoulder. Love is blind. Yeah, and we just last night last night she watched I observed, but she watched the wedding episode and it was who stayed together and who didn't. So yes, a lot of reality TV show is watching our house.
Yeah, I love so that.
Would you say that's your favorite show?
I must say if you want to me what mine is too hot to handle?
Oh?
You know what I mean, And I'll tell you why. Because you've got these people who are so attractive, they've never been told no, and then they have to like be old. It's fantastic. It's a social experiment like like anything I've ever seen. Because they're not used to they're not used to hearing no and that is a wonderful thing to see. It's like like watching a child being told like no, no, you can't go and you can't just draw on the walls. It's that but for adults.
And it seems like, guys, it's not that hard.
Seriously, money on the table one hundred grand, just like be good for ten days.
Seriously, it's a lot of amount of money.
So what inspired you to make tiktoks to begin with?
With?
Like all the subjects you talk about, Well, the thing is I.
Didn't know what people were weren't interested in. And so one of the funny things is when you are sitting in sort of the shoes of a lawyer, you think that people are like really interested in things like how does the separation of powers doctrine work? And no one cares about that sort of stuff. What people like? The number one question I got asked was can I drive barefeet? With bare feet? Res A good question, right, can you? You can? As long as you control the vehicle, you can?
And so what people were interested in was understanding things like, well, look, how does how does the Justin Baldoni thing go down? How does the Johnny Depth thing go down? Yeah? What you know what when you know, they get up and say objection, hearsay, what does that mean?
Yeah?
Yeah, And so you start to get really good at understanding what people want to understand, and then you get curious as well, like with the Johnny Depp thing, crazy.
The going on that, the whole seeing things in the public forum. I think with that case specifically, I completely disagree with like that was so done botched, and I just was like, this shit is not right, and I think it does sway public opinion and I think it does impact Like I'm an amber heard girly like I will be be there, like I know, I think they're both done really bad things. I just think she was never going to win that battle, and I think she also lied about things which made it.
Worse for her.
And I'm just like, like, it just was awful to watch the train wreck of that whole thing. Yeah.
Absolutely, And from a lawyer's perspective, my mindset was more like, Okay, you've got an article in the Washington Post about two Californian movie stars going through a divorce. Why are we having a court case in Virginia and why is it being publicized in the world. That's an interesting question. League. How do you end up in Virginia behind that? How do you end up there? And so for me, I
found that particularly fascinating. I found I mean, whether you like him or you hate him, and I think we can both agree both of them are highly problematic, particularly in that relationship context. But Johnny Dep's lawyers did a fantastic job totally. They did a fantastic want them and you know, and the caliber of the witnesses you see, you'll never see something like that because most of the time, the people with the resources to play at that level
they settle. They settle ninety nine point nine percent of those cases. And so to be able to see that and see it play out in real time, it's like watching the oj trial, right, Like that's the only thing I can kind of like, yeah, it's this it's this circus that sways public opinion. And now we're seeing a lot more of it, like you see the Asap Rocky case with you know, the Megan the Stallion with Tory Lanes.
It's it's becoming more of spectacle justice. And I think that's something that's gonna it's going to be a thing that happens. We have to get better at understanding how we can make sure that we don't lose we don't lose justice in the spectacle.
You had a look over the Maths contract and you spoke about this on your tip.
Yeah.
I love that video. We referenced it in one of our first episodes.
Actually, yeah, because I was like, it's I've never seen a lawyer speak about the contract ever before. And so when I was like, oh, you've actually seen it, be like, I'm dying to get your thoughts on it, and just one the most concerning clause that you saw.
Yeah, So look, I won't tell you who engaged me. I won't tell you what season. I don't know if it's evolved. And I get what you're saying. It's like saying, hey, someone's all big foot, Like it's real. I've told you, but you know you're gonna like, yeah, it's true. What I'll say is this, I've read a lot of Look, I'm not an employment sorry, I'm not in a entertainment lawyer.
I've seen a lot of contracts. The thing that's jumped out at me is the first page is in plain English, and it's basically like a warning you get on a can of bug spray like you will be portrayed however we want, we own you, like do like be very cautious of what you sign. And that to me was something quite unusual, And I mean good on them for at least like putting the label up front and letting you know. But things like you know we're going to record you. You may not be aware that we're recording
you as a part of that particular contract. It's staggering. Like it's really genuinely staggering. And like when you look at particularly, I think a lot of people think, oh, you go on reality TV. It's going to be like a couple of hours of filming a day. It's gonna be like pretty chill. They get really good money. Nah, It's it's like it's like the work of a galley slave. Like you're working twelve, thirteen, fourteen hour days being paid
like basically minimum wag. Yeah, very few, very few of the off the safeguards you'd have in a standard employment contractor there. And basically they are telling you, like, based on how we feel, we very well may portray you in a way that is completely disingenuous to who you actually are, and we may very well destroy your life. So to me, it is I can understand why people sign the thing because like, you know, you've got a shot. You gotta you know, you gotta sometimes you got to
risk it for way Ski podcast. So it worked out to Yeah, it worked out few to you and you guys, that's a testament to your tenacity and your intelligence you pilate it correctly. But and I also think a lot of people think like you just go on the show and then that's it, Like as soon as the show's done, you just answer phone calls. Oh yeah, sure, I'll do that endorsement dealt.
And it's just not realistic at all.
It's a springboard. It's a springboard, and that's still.
Ask but I think they do.
They can kind of wave that around people as like a you and I remember from out like briefing chats, like they would be like, if you want to be like X y Z couples from the show all these people, you need to listen to what we tell you. And that's the kind of general sentiment you have going into it. And I was always very and I think we've had conversations about this very realistic. I'm like, Okay, I might
look like an idiot. I need to just behave their way I would in real life, and then if people don't like me who I am, I would have to have to deal with that. The only thing is I was like, if they don't like me for something that's not who I am, is where I'm going to have a problem.
But it's it's the roll of the dice.
Right, And I say high risk, high reward, but extremely high risk, and only such a small percentage of people can even sustain their normal job even after the fact, right, Because I think there's not I guess again it's all in the contract, but I don't think there's a seriousness of like, hey, you probably shouldn't be a lawyer, a teacher,
a certain careers. If you go on maths, I would be like, oh, there should be a list of careers to have that you should never ever ever go on a show because it's like, yeah, you're probably not going to work in that field again, even if you look good. It's just not really appropriate. And I don't think there's that like really intricate unless you're speaking to someone like yourself or like family and friends that are educating the space, you just wouldn't know.
I spent hours trying to persuade my client not to go on this show. He was a smart guy. I knew him, he was a nice person. I spent a lot of energy telling him, don't do this. He did it anyway, right, So you can you know, I advise you decide. That's the role. That's my role, right, I advise you decide. Fundamentally, it speaks to I think exactly what you're saying, which is the what's not in the
contract and what's not in the contract? Are those conversations? Listen, you want to be like this person, don't you like? This person's gone on to have such a della career. They were on this show and they did what I said. So if you follow the formula, you're going to be fine.
She's like one in a hundred yea, right.
Yeah. Do you think the contestants have like any grounds to fight the contract after the fact?
No?
You you it's a I think pretty tight. It's pretty water tight. It's designed to be read and understood, and there's a time to have those negotiations. But I think that the power disparity is so substantial, right, because if you say no, I'm not going to sign this I want to change this. They go, no problem by and get put in someone else. Right, So it's a it's a seller's market. They can do as they wish. Yeah, And so I think it is a very much take
it or leave a type situation. The only exception to that would be, let's say you're a high profile person coming into maths.
Especially if they've approached you.
I think it's different if you've applied versus you being scouted, because I know there were whispers of this conversation of certain like things being relaxed. I don't know where things eventuated, but people that were a roach or being asked multiple times they were able to like tighten a couple things in their favor.
I think you should always always, whenever you're given a contract, you should always get legal advice on it. You should always push back, even if that means you lose the opportunity, so be it. Right. I always say, if someone's not willing to negotiate with you before they're in a relationship with you, they're not going to negotiate when they're in
the relationship, right, So period, that's really simple. Right. So the dynamic bit that defines the relationship before entering it is going to define it during Yeah.
Absolutely.
And what advice would you give people looking to sign a contract like this, whether it's maths, whether it's another reality TV show?
What would be your like number one advice.
Go speak to a lawyer, Go speak to a lawyer, Tell me about yours. It also depends on the individual, right, Like should say you are a you know, you're a well respected and regarded teacher, and there's a possibility that you're never going to be able to work in that field. Again, that's a very different situation than you're like an eighteen year old and like this is what you have your heart set on. You really haven't really gone out there
and tried other things. Very different, Yeah, very very different. And so you have to basically understand your client and understand the contract and make sure that it makes sense. But get advice. Yeah, definitely get advice.
I didn't do this, but I think it's beneficial for future cast to reach out to past participants, especially the ones that they might want to emulate a career that they've had.
It's I find interesting when I.
See people go to like the villains or like the people that didn't have a good experience, as if it would kind of help them pave a path that would be different to the people that they're asking of.
So I find that interesting.
I always think like when you have these resources like go get legal advice, which we found like a lot of people just didn't do. Like I feel like in my season, I was like one of the only ones even had the lawyer like look over it, and it's just like that's crazy to me, Like I don't think I've had a contract that I haven't even had like my dad like.
Give it, you know.
Like it's like the contracts scare me, and I think, especially something like this, there's nothing scary than something like this type contract.
It's look, I'm telling you, I look at contracts all day, and I look at big contracts. We're talking sales of multimillion dollar properties and whatnot. This is a big scary contract, Like it's intimidating.
I was naughty. I didn't care to do that.
I looked over at myself, but yeah, I guess like COVID time, that's when my show was on, and I was so desperate to find my husband, Like I was just blinded by anything else. So even if a lawyer had said to me. You know, it probably still would have just been like, what, I'm gonna meet my soul mate?
You know yourself, right, And there's something to be said for that. There's something to be said for Look, I'm that gung ho on this that nothing you say is going to dissuade me. And look, sometimes I've been wrong. I've told people to Like there's been deals where I been like, you shouldn't do this, and then they did it. Oh wow, it ended up really really good. So all I can do is advise based on today. Yeah, but
I think you also need to understand yourself. But at the very least going to someone and knowing, hey, they're going to do these eighteen things that I didn't expect. I better keep my If I was on the show, I would just be taking a sobriety break. I would not be drinking.
I didn't.
I had no alcoholic wine. The whole time.
I was like, you were not catching me looking like a hot mess for the rest of my life.
No, there's no way.
So I had like not and I was just like, no, I'm just not interested in that.
So smart, such a simple one, because you don't and you're filming the same scenes over and over again. They keep topping up the thing. Just there's so many little simple tricks you could use. I think that would make you experience slightly better.
We were in the most severe lockdown.
Yeah, so there.
Were no restaurants, pulb cafes to go to. We had, like we call them our dog walkers. Like you were only allowed out once a day for one hour with a producer. You couldn't even go on a walk with your partner. So alcohol is the only thing we had.
So we just.
Drank like little fishies. And that's why I think our season was so explosive.
Yeah, for sure.
So yeah, entertain.
Entertaining, well, we've seen this year a lot of the participants go a bit rogue on socials, create accounts, which, just to preface, there's your contract obligation with the production company. Then there's also your Channel nine social media engagement contract, which essentially signs away your usage of your socials to them for like six months. They'll post on your behalf that whole thing, and then you get the account back.
And we've noticed a lot of people this year not do that because I thought we didn't really have a choice to kind of caught it and you just thought, oh, I have.
To do this otherwise I don't know, And we've seen.
Quite a bit of the cast go so rogue ruin storylines just completely go, just ruin the whole production essentially. Do you think there's any grounds for Channel nine and ESA to sue them or Yeah, it definitely is.
I thought about this at some length. Why haven't they? They probably haven't because it's good for ratings and right now the Going Rogue has actually probably helped people about it, so maybe that's why they haven't. But I think they probably do have grounds to see if they wanted to.
Yeah, I wonder I always wonder what would be their like trigger point, because I feel like it's progressively gets worse and worse.
Yeah, but I feel like by far I f feel worse in terms of going rogue and leaking stuff.
I'm not the demographic and it's hitting my channel right, and so if it's hitting me, it's hitting everyone.
Yeah, it seems like nothing gets done about it. I know there was people in my season that broke the rules. Yeah, and then I was like, oh, well, there's no consequences to it, so why did I not do that? But also part of me kind of respects their courage to be so vocal about their experience because it is hard.
I think typically if you were following the contract, following what has been set out, you're not allowed to comment on anything really, like when these storylines are happening, or when you look bad, you can't.
You have to just cop it.
So I think part of me does respect them being like, no, actually, this is how it happened some people. I probably agree with more others, but yeah, I think it's almost like people are like biting back, which.
I know, Oh I just wait, just wait a few more weeks.
People are still going to listen, Like, just wait out for the season to air. People will still listen to what you have to say.
Trust me.
Yeah, I think that it's a highly emotive thing, and I can imagine if someone was portraying me in a way that was disingenuous, I would want to get on
the front foot and be like, how dare you? Yeah, the other side of it might be, you know, maybe they think that they're the level of exposure because we are all talking about it, like they have done a fantastic job of getting us to talk about it, which is why I think the downside of suing is do you really want to stop people who are talking about this, or maybe they've already threatened. Maybe it hasn't gotten anywhere. Maybe it's because they've got other bigger fish to fry.
I mean, the police have been involved in this particular site.
Because I wonder what the what the grounds are there? Because we're not employees, we're contributors. That's the way it's positioned. So I feel like we don't actually have riots like you can't. I would probably say, yeah, if it was a traditional workplace, the way we were treated at times, probably it wouldn't fly in a normal like environment.
Save you absolutely it wouldn't fly. You would absolutely be filing cases in relevan jurisdictions. It's insane, right, you can't treat people that way. You can't work them fourteen hours a day for minimum wage and then portray them in negative lights and tell them to do this and to tell them to do that. Like it's it's pretty insane, right, And the fact that the fact that they get away with it season after season is I think leading to
it becoming slightly more extreme. If you watch it, to me, the show is getting more extreme every season, right, like things that fly now would never have flown five seasons ago. And I think it's dangerous, right, I really do. I mean it concerns me that there hasn't been more oversight over it, you know, if you have people acting in ways that are violent. I genuinely thought after that particular incident there would have been like, Okay, you're leaving the show.
Australia has a domestic violence problem. This is completely unacceptable. You should be you know, taught some consequences for your actions, regardless of what your partner thinks about the particular situation.
Act this week.
Bye, yeah, that's what I thought, would you know, pop out?
But in regards to Paul punching the wall, yes, yeah, this we did want to ask your opinion on this because it's it's interesting to see because yes, like you mentioned, like we're in a really dark time for DV in this country alone, and I think being able to see it, it could have been an opportunity to really talk about it and like to share resources, do a decent trigger warning, to really like educate on how no, the behavior is not okay and what if the wall isn't there next time?
Or you know, and what actual services and stuff have they given him after Like they said, Okay.
We're going to give you some resources, what are those?
Maybe share that with the audience, because say someone is in a real life situation, like, hey, they've never done it before and this is the first time they've acted out, which my personal views on that is separate.
What what do they do? Where do they go? Where are they help?
What's the strategy? Then I feel like that wasn't shown, and that could have been like, Okay, if we're going to keep him on, let's show Okay, if this happens in your relationship, I don't know.
I feel like you don't stay personally.
I think you don't know. You don't because it escalates and you die.
It's not serious.
It's very serious. Okay. Was she speaking to him in a disrespectful manner? Maybe? Does that give you the right to take hands on someone? No, it's pretty clear card. These are binary things, right, And I think what I think a lot is that that is underestimated is young people are watching this and they're starting to see, oh, well, it's okay. If he punches the wall and then says sorry to me, that's okay, then Yeah, that's all right, He's sorry, right, And what I've seen is the whole
spectrum of domestic violence on this episode, on this season. Sorry, you've got physical, proper domestic violence, You've got coercive control on the other side, basically on camera coercive control. Don't you dare tell them about how I You've got experts like, I mean this, why is it not being called a Seriously, why is there not like the registered board coming and saying, sir, You're witnessing on camera someone coercively controlling a young woman.
She's terrified. Why are you making her say things she likes about him? This is not healthy or normal.
That didn't make sense to me, And I was like, what is the thought process behind her then saying what she likes to then catch her out being like she doesn't like him or she wants to say Like I didn't understand where that was going.
And I was just like, and then it just ended.
I was naive. I thought this was a great opportunity to show that there isn't anything you like about him. You should leave this. Really, this is a great exercise for people. Instead, it completely created the opposite sort of experience, and like, if these experts don't have DV training. You need experts to do because I'm telling you for me. You know, I have younger siblings. I don't want them to watch that and think this is an acceptable way
to treat your partner. You cannot punch walls because you're upset. That's what a four year old does, not a grown adult television and if that's how he behaves when television cameras are on, respectfully, I have genuine concerns about what happens when there's when there's no oversight. And secondly, you don't speak to your partner that way. You don't gaslight them in the way that that's happening. It's proper coercive control. There's legislation design.
Yeah, and this is like new stuff that's been implemented. And it's interesting because going back to Paul, we obviously saw it was his turn to share his experience and like write a letter about how he feels about Karina, and for him to say she's a jealous person, she's judgmentary, gives me the ick.
And then all this stuff. I was like, jealous person, But did you not punch your wall because you were.
Jealous that she slept sleeping with a wrapper, and then you're gonna have the ike about her being upset you staying with a woman for three nights.
It was so like typical.
Anyone that's been in situations of similar dynamics can recognize his behavior. And I think it's really hard and from my experience, until I was in it, you never realize and until you're exposed to it, you will never know.
What it's like.
We're having opportunity now to be exposed to it. We need to then explain, hey, red flag, red flag, this is really bad, because yeah, you don't You sometimes don't know until you're in it, right, And I just think there's not many other ways to have these conversations like Maths is doing, and they just haven't really they missed the mark on how it's presented, I think, and just.
Like allowing him to stay and continue for the whole experiment, it's just setting the tone that that behavior is okay. So people are going to watch that and be like, oh, it's all right to punch your wall.
Well exactly.
And in addition to that, we've seen Adrian the DV charges, which I believe have been dropped. I'm not sure what exactly those were and what the terms are around that. I personally don't know if we should be platforming people that have even just an allegation.
When you're doing the application process.
You have a police check, you do psychological of ours. This is definitely something they would have been aware of if they did a simple police check. Right, Whether that was done or whether it was ignored, I'm not sure. But what's your thoughts on I guess the mainstream media being able to platform.
It's very tough, right, It's really tough because you know, they're false. Allegations happen. They're rare, but they happen. They're about two to five percent basically. So do you want to destroy someone's opportunities because a false allegation or an incorrect allegation is made. Probably not, But do you? I mean, I guess, is it possible to have someone who has no allegations and no backstory whatsoever? Yes? It is, And I think that's the kind of people that you want to promote.
Yeah.
Right, So to me, I understood the charges were dropped. I understood the matter has gone away. He's entitled to his presumption amnisions. He should be allowed to go on with his life. But I think that what I have seen portrayed with my own eyes barring. I mean, we all know editing can make for sure custard out of you know, anything. But what I've seen is some pretty concerning dynamics. And what I'm shocked at is the complete lack of dialogue around those dynamics and the complete lack
of psychosocial education around this particular stuff. Because if you allow this, I'm telling you it's only inevita. It's a matter of time until someone gets hurt, right, And it's it's not a game, it's not entertainment. You can't you know, you can't be having these things play out in this horrific way and not say anything or do anything.
Yeah, it's hard because I think like a lot of the stuff we've discussed a very important conversations to be had in this stuff that's very real in like the world we live in or just reality TV. But I think there's like a disjoint with how that's being communicated in such a like a mainstream like this is primetime TV slot, right, so like you've got families watching this, how are they explaining stuff to kids? Or like how how is that I don't know, there's not it would be it would have been.
I would have loved to.
See a great opportunity to like educate on the space or like bring people in to like workshop.
I don't know. I don't know what I expect from them. I don't really expect something.
It's something, right, Like, I don't expect this complete void. I mean, look, there's an argument, you know, the David att Atborough approach. You know, you you see a tiger chasing a rabbit and you don't interfere that. I don't think flies when it's a primetime slot about something as important as, you know, the relationship between two people. And so I think you need to have a discussion to
tell people this is not normal or healthy or appropriate. Right, and if I understand it correctly, Paul got like he does a counseling session once on Saturday every Saturday. Like, okay, well, sure, what has he learned in those sessions? What is about? Let's share that? Right, Let's share that, you know, because look, I can understand people losing their call. You don't want to destroy someone because they've had a moment of madness.
But also, right, you don't punch a wall like, I mean, I love how we keep just like acting like this is a normal behavior. It's not right. And if the mainstream Australia starts to think that that's okay, you're going to have a spike in domestic violence and it's just what happens.
Yeah, absolutely true, because it escalates every season. Like season six we saw Martha throw wine at Cyreen. Then my season on season nine, we saw Dominica smash a wine glass in front of the whole group and then that was deemed okay, and everyone's like.
Yay, slay queen.
Yeah, like it's crazy, and now this guy is punching a hole and a lot of things and things happened. Nothing's happened.
What is what five seasons from now? Yeah, it's fine. It just didn't break the leg. It just injured it. Oh yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. You know they were only in a coma for five months. You know, it's it's what you would walk past, is what you accept, right, And I think that the fact that there hasn't been bigger pushback is concerning.
Yeah, I agree.
I think I do feel though this year, I think I just feel something brewing. I feel that there's going to be more change or I don't know. I just feel like it's starting the conversation a bit more and it might trigger things to happen.
I don't know.
I'm hopeful of it, but it's yeah, it's interesting to see.
What has transpired off the back of like topics from this season. Yeah, very fascinating. And I'm just curious your client. Did he ever come back and say you're right?
He did not, And I did bring it up because I felt that. I also feel like, yeah, you just yeah, that's he's gone.
Through enough, but you're still friends.
Not really, No, I think I think that I think that he I was shocked at how much it fundamentally changed his personality being publicly shamed in such a wide way, And I think the poor guy probably got PTSD or something out of it. It seemed like and I can understand, I mean, I can understand that happening to people. I think that we all look at these things as this like harmless bit of entertainment, but at the end of the day, there is someone whose life has changed in
a way. You know, you guys would get a better far better than I would. But just it's not it's not meant to be a blood sport. It's meant to be, you know, it's meant to be an opportunity to find the love of your life, you know, make some friends and you know, hey, I thought I liked the beach type and like a mountain type. Who it's meant to be some goofy not like, Hey, I didn't you know I have to live with the domestic violence abuse or like it's to be like that.
No, totally.
And do you think like given like the duty of care when it comes to production and with like with this, do you think there's I think, because we've spoken about people taking it too far of maybe ending their life based on their experience, whether it's on the show or the aftermath of it, do you think that the production or the network could be liable for that.
All the rules and regulations are quite different here. I know in the UK, I think we were discussing this off are They've got some tighter regulations around that sort of thing. But I mean, what people have to understand about the law is it's always inherently it's always inherently reactive. So I always say this when I was in law school, and that wasn't that long ago. I like, you know, the fourteen fifteen years ago, same sex marriage was not legal.
Cryptocurrency was not a thing. Now in my current practice, the argument is which one of the husbands keeps the cryptocurrency wallet? Right, I couldn't have learnt how to deal with that when I was in law school. It wasn't a thing. Yeah, And so there's always going to be a step behind as we catch up with the law. So does someone need to pass for that to be the case? Hopefully not. I'm hopeful that this particular season people have gone, yeah, look, we really push things a
bit too far. We better calm down and better, you know, we better retool, or at the very least, we better get a couple of actual DV experts on the path. And if they do have those experts, maybe they're not listening to them, or maybe they're not. I don't know.
And I think it's hard because I also think the experts play their own role as.
Actor is not the right way.
They are being a character that is supplementing the whole thing. Right, So I don't really hold things against them because I'm sure they have their own how they feel ethically about stuff, and I'm sure that the actual the specialization that they do privately with their private clients is completely different.
Than what they are receiving.
Basically, like glorified hosts, there's a flip to that.
You are a professional, You've taken oaths, you've made standards, you hold certain licenses and representations. Right, So for me, I can't mislead the court. It's something I can't do, even if it's in a like showy context, I can't do that. I've made an ethical determination that I'm going to discharge my duties in a certain way. If you're a glorified host, right, we wouldn't held nick Liche to the same Okay, okay, so you just it's just a
different sort of thing. But if you are, if you have those expertises right, people are gonna people will expect you to do something about it. And if you're not right, maybe behind the scenes they're raising whatever alarms they need to raise. But I mean, if you're a host and you get the benefits of being a host, unfortunately, you gotta have the responsibilities of being the hosts for sure.
That's sure. The scary thing is not even them talking. I don't think the audience, no wear ear piece.
And you can hear you can hear jarring because I literal you'd sit there and like probably the same distance we are now and you can hear it.
You can literally hear what's being said in the earpiece. And then you're like and it's just like just looking at each other dead pants, and it's just like sorry, it's so, just.
Give me a murder trial any day versus this. It's hard.
So if people were to go tell us about your firm and what I guess services you offer any people to go to for?
Yeah, what are some of the some of the things people could go to.
We're a full service law firm. My firm's called Executive Law Group. We have an office here in Sydney. You can find us all over the internet or reach out to me via TikTok or any of my other channels. We do everything from him with disputes specialists, so we do employment disputes, family law, crime, commercial disputes, what have you.
We have an influencer practice where we help a lot of influencers who are dealing with things like not getting paid, making sure they understand their obligations and their rights, making sure that any sort of agreement is made, that's fair to We do a fair bit of that sort of stuff and it's a really exciting space. I love it. I love working with influencers. It's it's it keeps me young. Love that like to question, what does it mean girls? You girls keep you young?
Well, it's literally, like you said before, like thirteen years ago, influencer wasn't even a word that existence. So I think it's like, I love that you're evolving with the times here and like taking the career seriously because there is these like what's the regulations? You know, we never get paid on time, like all these things which I think lack that structure, And I feel like it's great to have a resource week. You'd be like, yeah, actually, these are your rights.
It's like any typical job you would do.
Yeah, you shouldn't have to wait in never sixty days because people don't feel like paying you.
So I love. I love that you're doing that as well.
Oh, it's staggering how many influencers get taken for a ride, like you know, I I you know, from the outside, when you look at the world of an influencer, you think, what a cushy job? Right, Oh my god, they just go and eat like a burger and they get paid a fortune. If you are hustling hard as an influencer,
it is hard. Like there are people who take a lot of liberties, and so it's actually been really nice to support people who are just like trying to, you know, do their thing and try to learn a little bit. It's it's been a really positive experience.
Yeah, no, I love love that. And tell us about your book.
Oh, thank you, thank you for remembering I've forgotten. My book's called Talk You Out of Trouble. It's coming out April twenty ninth. It's by Pan McMillan Publishers. You can find it in any good bookstore or order it online or pre order it to get copies. There is an audiobook I narrated. Yeah, okay, love that and it went. And let me tell you, narrating an audiobook is so much harder than people tell you. You've got to get every word right and if you get it, John, I'm
sorry you just you sounded a bit off there. Can we just get the last sentence again? So it was it's a mission. But yes, I've narrated it amazing. It's coming out April twenty nine, So in any good bookstore. Great gift for loved ones and family. And if you like my content, it's kind of the stories and the way that I became a lawyer, what I've learned being a lawyer, and how you can implement that in your own life.
Love that I will same absolutely.
Finally, ending up with one last question, let's just say, if these crazy contracts weren't a thing, what reality TV show would you go on?
What a tough one.
I'm saying, like Survivor.
Oh brother, look, Apprentice.
You have to understand The Apprentice would be a good one. Check out The Apprentice. The Apprentice. Yeah, my wife has always said she wanted to go on Survivor. That's been her big dream. So you know, use your energy, Internet and make that happen for her. But I think Apprentice would be great. I think it'd be a lot of fun. You go out there, you'd know all you hustle, you know, get fired, You're fired. I thought it was self employed.
I would be able to deal with that cry probably literally.
Oh thank you so much for coming on. I've learnt so much. I feel like I've been in class, but in a good class, like a.
Nice discussion for both of you, A plus pluses. Thank you, thank you about having it's but it's a light. Thank you reality
M HM.