¶ Introduction to Gareth and Zach
Hello and welcome to AXSChat . I'm delighted that we're joined today by our first ever guest , gareth Ford-Williams , and his responsible adult , zach Ford-Williams . So , gareth , we were trying to get you on to celebrate our 10th anniversary of AXSChat . We missed it by a few months , but we do have the added bonus of you bringing Zach with you .
And why is Zach important ? Well , he's important for many reasons , but also Zach is one of the reasons why you're motivators for your work .
But also , I've heard many apocryphal tales about Zach when you're talking about some of the things that you were doing in accessibility , so maybe you can tell us a little bit more about the sort of backstory and and so on yeah , I blame it all on you .
Um , I think , as simple as that , I think we can end . We're all friends in back in eons time , five , twenty , one years ago or twenty years ago . Uh , right at the start of
¶ BBC Accessibility Origins
sort of my journey working in accessibility at the bbc , the conversations started with children's games . You were six years old , you were not able . I was already working at the bbc as a brand manager .
Conversations had already kind of kick-started around this , because the bbc , obviously , you know very , very long history with accessibility , going back to the 1920s , and and no one had a plan . There were bits and pieces of work , there were pockets of work going on , but nothing was consolidated .
And one of the things that was that was obvious at the time was , you know , and I I could see this as you were playing games that were designed for the under sixes , because there was this wonderful guy called ian hamilton who was a designer who was working well , I hadn't met yet , didn't know existed , um , and there was a pocket of work going on in cbbs ,
but you wanted to move to the six to twelve games in cbbc , yeah , and you couldn't access them . And so I was like , well , I , you know if put it out time . You know it's ridiculous .
I think I used the line actually to to , uh , a guy who became my my line manager eventually , tony aggie , I think he runs digital at new york public library now , and uh , and I said , you know it's brilliant . You know , as a brand manager , I think about the relationships we have with our audiences and it's brilliant .
You've built up a relationship with zach and now you've dropped him at age six . You know that's , that's , it's not , it's brilliant . You've built up a relationship with Zach and now you've dropped him at age six . You know that's , it's not good . Once you've sort of brought people in to the brand of the BBC , you see them through their lives .
You don't sort of pick and choose and drop and pick up as you go along around . Access and there was so much of that . And then we started working . I was given free reign on a prototype that was going on in the corner . It was like we first need to work out what , what we even mean by accessibility .
I think the exec said you know , we want it to be at least as accessible as television , which you know everything , which kind of muddied the waters even more .
But at least it gave us an understanding of , of a quality that they wanted to reach and , um , and the weird thing is that project became bbc iplayer , which launched in 2007 , and we've done all the screen reader accessibility stuff on it we've done .
You know , closed caption , subtitles was there we did sound interpretation was on there , audio description was on there . There was loads of stuff that we were doing and , um , you know , 20 years later he's on it and that . That's that's now the weird bit for me as a parent .
You know you're spending your time building a thing for you to use and now you're actually on the thing instead . So , yeah , it's kind of all gone weirdly , sort of full circle , yeah it's yours now .
It must be .
It's a strange thing it's not like well , yeah , it kind of is , I switch it on and there you are , but that's kind of the story .
I mean , there's lots of bits and pieces in between and obviously you know , as that , growing up and I know other people are , you know who are disabled , and you kind of bring personal experience , my own neurodivergence and all sorts of bits and pieces into this and , uh , you know , we all do this .
we all our
¶ Zach's Acting Journey
personal stories , our families , our friends , our experiences are the thing that kind of shape our perspectives yeah , I agree , um , one of the things that , if you don't mind my saying , I love about your work and I think helps us all if we have a sort of personal connection to what we're doing really kind of gives us the drive to move forward .
But you've always you've always been like that . You've done lots of different stuff , lots of different careers , but you sort of gravitate towards . Wherever there's a problem that needs fixing and someone needs helping , you will . You will do anything to sort of fix it I don't like things that people ignore .
I think also what zach's trying to say is that I don't like things that people ignore . I think also what Zach's trying to say is that I don't know what I want to be when I grow up .
I'm probably one of the only people who's always sort of known . I've wanted to be an actor since I was six and I'm incredibly stubborn and I've never changed my mind , and I think both you and Bob's reaction was's reaction was yes , of course , when I told you you're going to be an astronaut next week . Yeah , I never changed my mind um , he hasn't .
I don't know how he does that , because I have never worked out what my mind is . So yeah , we're very different in some special interests . That's how , back to neurodivergence again .
So just for some of our audience that maybe don't watch the telly or iPlayer Zach , you're an actor and you've been in a number of quite well-known series such as Midsommar , murders , bridgerton and the Hard Acres , and you're also doing stage acting .
This is great , because this is a topic that I know we've covered on Access Shot a few times about representation in the media and so on , so maybe you could tell us about some of the work that you've been doing and so on . And then I know Deborah and Antonio have also got questions and I'll keep my mouth shut for the rest of the time .
Fabulous . I mean it's really interesting sort of growing up . It's something .
The lack of representation is something I didn't sort of think about , because when I first decided to become an actor I was so young that I wasn't really aware that there was a societal label of being disabled that I was , that there was a societal label of being disabled that I was , that I was different than that , even though those people I was seeing up
there didn't have my physicality . I wasn't aware that that made us different on societal terms yet , because I was so young I was just like I want to be an actor .
And it was only when I started to get older and experienced maybe a few more barriers and maybe a seeing the physical evidence in front of me of there being very few people with , um , physicality and with that sort of societal label of disabled which is different from the condition itself .
And I had people overtly and covertly sort of in my life never you , you two , but going . Maybe this isn't for you or people like you sort of shouldn't really do this .
Yeah , I remember what he said to the careers advisor . That's another story .
Can you give us the PG version ? I mean , I didn't know it wasn't swear . No , we can hear it . We can hear it in our head Crushing it was , I'll say it .
We can hear it in our head , crushing it was , I'll say it . I just
¶ Breaking Through Barriers in Entertainment
because I was trying to be as polite as possible , because I'd never changed my mind and I was like , no , I'm going to do this , and I was constantly being sort of bombarded with other ideas . We've tried this . Yes , I mean , there was a good suggestion . I was really trying to be polite , you know .
But again and again and again , and eventually I snapped and I said why should I listen to you ? I bet you didn't want to be a careers advisor when you grow up . Yeah , which I got in trouble for .
He doubled down a bit later on and I think he was just saying I'm only trying to learn from his mistakes .
Yeah , which maybe was a bit mean . No disrespect to careers advisors or anything . I think it was the .
I think it was the persistent , even though I had said it was the assumption from their point of view because of who you are , yeah , and the barriers you face that it will never happen . Yeah , and that was that was the way it was phrased . It's like , let's face it , it's never going to happen . And the thing is with you . There was never a plan b .
We gave up years , right , we tried . It's a terrible attempt as parents , but what if it has never been a plan b ? No , and in some ways , why should there be ?
You know , if , if that is where your passion is , then follow it and do whatever it takes and whatever the length of journey it takes , you don't stop , you know and isn't that what we say to everybody else ?
gareth , I mean anybody else , but we'll say no to zach because of some vague what . What does that have to do with anything ? So I hope that you sent your career counselor , um , some of your playbills and stuff .
I hope had you seen me in bridgerton as a lord , for example unfortunately , my lack of contact details we don't look back , but uh , yeah , um , I do do have that sometimes .
Sometimes it surprises me , I think , when you get that knowledge I mean there was a stubbornness but also when you're told something for a very young age , no matter how stubborn you are , it does infiltrate your life and your perception of yourself , and this is why sort of representation is important or whatever , because no matter what barriers you put up , those
meanings start to to be absorbed and I had , growing up , started to believe them and was like , well , I'm going to try anyway and I'm going to spend my entire life never getting a job , but I'm going to do it anyway , out of a because it's one to what I want to do and b because I'm stubborn and I don't want to prove them right .
So it was actually , in a strange way , a big surprise when I got into drama school and started getting jobs and started doing things , because I think that their message towards me which is why it's such a big thing to combat and the message that I got from lack of representation on screen was this space is not for you , and I think I subconsciously believed
that , which is why it was such a big surprise yeah , but you never , it never put you off oh no never .
I mean , he once announced I think you were about 12 or 13 and he announced to us um , it might have been just to me , actually , I don't think you would have said this to your mother but he announced to me that you're going to do stage acting , but it was going .
You're never going to make any money , but so just be prepared that I'm going to have to pay for everything you know , and that was your plan . Well , he had a plan which is is fine , we just carry on . It's all right , you just pick up the bill and we'll be okay . Well done , it wasn't asking , it was just don't worry , this is the plan , this is okay .
And I remember thinking , yeah , I didn't sign up to that .
And now he's going to support you .
Yeah , absolutely .
Zach , I know that I , like many , many , many , millions and millions of others , I'm a huge fan of Bridgerton and I know you were in the third season and I know that Antonio has a question , so I'm only going to make this comment real quick .
But one thing that I loved about that particular season was how they were really focusing on the woman that was considered a wallflower . You know , nobody wanted her , nobody wanted her . She's too this , she's too that , she's too old , she's too big . I love that you played on that particular one , because I've watched all of them , queen .
I mean , I'm a ridiculous fan of Bridgerton , but one reason why I am is because they are bringing everybody together in a way that we've never , ever seen before , and so I was just wondering . I know once again , I need to turn the mic over to Antonio for his comment , but I was just wondering if you wanted to .
That must have make you feel proud on top of everything else , because they've done such a good job .
I mean it does . I remember being sort of quite emotional . I'm very happy with what they did and that they they sort of went in that direction and particularly with period drama
¶ Authentic Representation in Period Drama
, against the history . People are often represented particularly physically with much more conventional bodies , even though historically they would be far wonkier , which is always one of the most absurd things about period dramas . So it was a big statement because of the sort of historic health care and hygiene and war and everything .
The disability was far more common it would be .
It would be far more authentic . Yeah , so to do that , um made it more interesting , I think . I think having different people with different bodies and different backgrounds is always a more interesting choice .
You were telling me about period dances yes , dances , yeah .
And this is a really nice story about drama school . Actually it shows how the fact that period dramas never have anyone like me had really gotten into my head In that we did period dance at drama school . It was very classical theater training , darling . Part of that was doing period dance and there was a lot of physical work and a lot of work on posture .
And I remember the first day I got really upset because I felt like I just couldn't do this .
This wasn't in my and I got quite upset to the movement , teacherie snow , who's wonderful and became a , a great friend and still is , and I said I don't know if you know , this stuff is is for me or made for me , and she looked at me and she went all of these are actual historical dances .
Think about health care , think about you know , come back from war . Think about how much wonkier people's bodies would be . People just in history , in history just made do this . Actually , you being here and doing this makes this environment more authentic and I'd never considered that .
She was telling you as well about the way you know you're basically lining up , you're walking up to each other , having a little bow tottering around this way . But the thing is they're really simple moves because there would have been far more disability and impairment within the group , so that actually the dances are really quite inclusive and they're a set thing .
Everyone knew where they were . There's no free formal space around this , and so those dances are that , for a particular reason , is to be more inclusive .
Yeah , I agree .
That's so cool . I know Antonio has a question . Antonio , you want to come in ?
I want to reflect a little bit on the story of our guests here on Access Chat . And we end up realizing that many people working on industry , many people who are passionate about accessibility , have a story , a family story . They didn't start by studying accessibility or going directly into that .
They have a story that motivated them to work , to develop and trying to find solutions . Why do you feel you know , gareth , you met so many people working in this field . You know you also know personally many of our colleagues and experts . Why ?
do you feel this is the case ? I think it sort of taps into something that's quite fundamental in so many people . We just want to fix things . There's so many of us see things and you just go I mean , we've done a project . Well , I've done a project quite recently and he's been mentoring me is about the best way I can describe it .
He's a worm tongue but he feeds into stuff because it's a space that I don't know and I often spend an enormous amount of time talking to people that know spaces . But I see a gap , I see a problem and you know this is . This is the thing with disability . You know , disability doesn't happen until we design things that don't work for people .
That is the point . When disability happens , you know you can have it as an identity , but not everyone who's disabled identifies as disabled . But that's cool Either way . It's a cultural thing and it's quite a modern cultural thing . It's kind of mid-20th century . You go back into the era disability didn't exist as an idea .
People just had characteristics of having an arm missing or whatever . That was just then , but it wasn't an identity as such . But I think it's one of those things where you kind of you see a gap .
You see something and think someone's going to do something about this , and then nobody does and it's like , well , if you're not going to do it , I'm going to have a go , because at least that will get the conversation going . And and you find other people that are looking at the same gaps .
Like you know , when I met , you know , the , the wonderful ian hamilton , you know , and the pair of us then get together and after a year or so working with a few other people that were working in games and whatever we start writing , we finished off the first games accessibility guidelines from a publisher which then went on to become , you know , the foundation
for ian's work and and tara's and everyone's you know , for games accessibility guidelinescom , you know . But it was one of those things . We just saw the gap and and it's like , well , why ? Why not fill it ? You know we've we've been doing some stuff recently about casting and portrayal yeah , because it just it just wasn't there .
And then you , I think , because we kind of live such comfortable lives in you know the country where we are , and it seems like everything broadly is accounted for , we forget that there are gaps .
And when we approach , when we see a gap , we think that must be , that must be already accounted for , that must be someone's got this not yeah , we , we realized , so you know that one was an interesting one , because there's these wonderful things like tap tv access project , which has been going on for quite a while now , and creative diversity network and all
these people . You start looking these and I I'd spotted this problem in about 2019 , where everything that everyone was discussing was from a very hr point of view and everyone was thinking about access to spaces and employment and , you know , getting people through interviews and into sets and all the rest of it , which is amazing .
There's all these access coordinators that started out and I've just forgotten her name . I spoke a couple of days ago to the first ever access
¶ Disability in Acting and Casting
coordinator and her name's gone right out of my head and it's going to come back sarah , something or other , but she was the first ever access coordinator for for on set and she now runs . She now actually manages loads of access coordinators . It's like an agent for them and um and and it's one .
They all focused on that , but no one actually focused on the creativity bit of it . It's like , where is the ? Where is the guidance ? Not like guidelines . I don't think there could be anything that draconian in art . That should never be but where is the guidance ? For you know , what is the best approach to dealing with this .
You know when we're casting authentically , or or when we're doing it incidentally , or or how we're telling stories about disabled people , or how we are enabling a disabled person to tell a story that's nothing to do with disability . Where is that thing that gives people at least a foundational understanding of the approach ?
And tools and suggestions to enable people to be creative with it . You know , yeah , the only things that existed were lists of things of people telling people and suggestions to enable people to be creative with it .
You know , yeah , the only things that existed were lists of things , of people telling people what not to do .
And when I was talking to someone quite recently and they said , yeah , they came across a list of disability tropes and they went down the list and they said , by the time they got to the end of it , there isn't a single role you can cast a disabled actor in . They're all being removed . It's like there's nothing left .
It's like , so if we followed this guidelines , we're not going to cast anyone well and some .
Something I always wondered and I don't know , zach or gareth , if y'all can enlighten me here , but acting is portraying a character , and so one thing I also was confused about was lived experiences are going to add so much value to that acting experience , certainly , and so having lived experience with something it seems like and you were saying that before , gareth ,
you know it adds so much authenticity to things because you're not just trying to guess what it's like . But I also thought it got very confusing for me , just as an audience member , because we were saying well , you can't act that way because that's not authentic . For example , you cannot play a gay role if you're not gay .
How dare you play even a person with a disability if you don't have disabilities ? But it's acting and you're playing different roles , and so I always thought that was weird and didn't understand it . But then , of course , authenticity in an actor is so important .
I want you to act , zach , I want you to tell me a story which , by the way , you did in Bridgerton and I don't want to even realize that you're acting . I'm falling to that story and Penelope's what I mean . I so got into it and that's one thing I loved about it is that it took me out of my ADHD brain . Stop , stop .
But that part I'm always confused about because you're acting , but it is lived experiences . But oh , be careful of your identities .
Yeah , I was wondering at some point when society would put our identities all back together so that we could be human beings , so solve the problem for me , zach , my personal view is is the trouble is is that there's a lot of people with a lot of differing opinions who all state their opinion on the matter like it is fact um , and they , they conflict each
other and the trouble is no discussion happens because you do this , no , you do this , and of course that's confusing . But my , my view is it's like a balancing act . There has to be a bit of kind of both worlds , I think .
I think physical traits are , are maybe slightly more important , but also you try and find who can bring and bring something from their life and experience to the role .
But it doesn't have to be sort of exact , like if you know in a role , say , if someone is disabled but the , the disability is slightly different from what it is on screen , but they do , they still have that experience of otherness . Do they still have that ? You know , you can be a bit broad , I think some actors get it .
Yeah , don't I mean . When you go back to daniel day leewis in my life , yeah , I mean I think you know it wouldn't happen again today . Well , the actual director has said he would now make different choices . Yeah , but the portrayal of something .
It's strange it's like because often as a disabled actor you know a lot of instances of pardon the word , but creeping up , as they call it , you know , give me an odd feeling in my stomach , particularly when they feel inauthentic . But what's so interesting about Daniel Day-Lewis' performance ? I have cerebral palsy .
I look at his performance and that and he works so hard on it and was so specific and specificity is like so crucial in acting . It's one of the main things is specificity . He moves exactly like someone
¶ Balancing Authenticity and Performance
with cerebral palsy , to an uncanny degree I agree so it was . That was a . It was a really interesting thing because it was like , well , we shouldn't do that today . I don't feel disrespected because you got it right , but I would see that as an anomaly . I don't think most people go to that length .
It's just easier to find someone with lived experience sometimes than to have to go to that there was a thing that you said to me when you were you were a drama student and and um , I do like quoting zach a lot , and and you said to me that putting a disabled person on stage is a post-modernist act in itself and the idea being is that changes the
relationship with the audience . Great , having Daniel there , and I think it was . Someone said that there's this cure of the curtain call . Yes , oh , what's her face ? Dr Jessie Parrott said that it's that whole point is the audience know that's fine , he's just walking away , it's all right .
As soon as it's ended , it's all over everyone , it's not okay , it's not real . But when it suddenly becomes real , it changes the dynamic with the audience . There's something artistically valuable in there and that changes , and I think it's to do with audience perception .
And I think it's to do with audience perception and I think it's to do with the visibility of disability rather than the authenticity of a condition . So when we think about , you know , authenticity , authenticity of casting , it's very much an hr kind of thing . We're going where you know we've got someone with adhd playing someone with adhd . It's not really .
I don't think it's necessary , unless there's specific moments in the story and you're thinking something about their life could bring something specific . Most of it's you know it's about not being a cosmetic change or something there .
for but , as you said , it's as soon as the person is on stage and everyone has already made an assumption yes , they've seen the person and they don't or heard them , and the signifiers and the characteristics are already there and they know it's real it suddenly changes everything . It's an artistic thing to do . There's more in there .
I think you said to me as well . It was like the whole point of it is it adds subtext yes , and that's what acting is all about . May I come in for a sec there ? I think you said to me as well . He was like the whole point of it is it adds subtext yes , and , and that's what acting's all about , may I come in for a sec .
So we we've had another guest on uh . That is a repeated guest and that's a chap called kurt jaeger and a number of films , and but one of the things that he's trying to do is create a vehicle where they're casting disabled actors in all kinds of roles and they're using the leverage of finance to do that .
But one of the things that he said and I think that this is really important was actually looking at the roles and going well , there's nothing in this role that's described that says that the actor can't have a disability , right , and so then we move away from , you know , having disabled actors only playing disabled roles , because that's the main part of the role
and actually just disability being part of who they are and incidental to the plot , and I think that that's the really lord remington is the perfect yeah exactly .
Yeah , I mean I don't . I mean I agree , I'd love to be fair , not to bring it back to myself , but I agree with lord remington , an incidental betrayal being the most in some important thing . But I've got , I've got a friend who I believe , and I believe , auditioned for that role . He's not disabled and didn't get it , sorry , mate .
And there's nothing in the script that stated that that character had to be , but the power in that just being an usual everyday thing , even in the Hard Acres where it is a bit more of an explicit thing .
But I love the Hard Acres in that , when I watched it back particularly , harry just exists , he just is , and that's incredibly powerful because also that's real to people's lives , no matter if it's disability or anything .
Sometimes there are specific events that happen to us that do relate to that , but it's more authentic that people are just existing and trying to cope with this strange thing that is being alive .
Yeah , and there's a lot to be said in the parallel with colorblind casting . If you come across that where you're just casting
¶ Incidental vs. Character-Defining Disability
right , you know , regardless of ethnicity , you know you're just bringing in an actor that can act , who can bring something into the role and something of themselves to the role , and again you're dealing with people's preconceived ideas and preconceptions and attitudes .
Changes that dynamic and I think disability and ethnicity in that way on screen are incredibly closely aligned conceptually .
I would agree from a conceptual standpoint in that overcoming that mental barrier . I think the mental barrier is a similar one in the eyes of people creating these programs .
Yeah , this has been a fantastic conversation . I know we could go on for hours , as we have done before , so it remains for me to thank Amazon and MyClearText for keeping us on air and keeping us captioned and accessible . Gareth , it's always a pleasure . Zach , it's great to get to meet you and I look forward to us continuing this conversation online .
Thank you so much .
Absolutely , thank you .