>> Chris Dechter: This is AV super friends off the rails, an almost regularly scheduled open discussion on audio and video in higher education. We'll sound off about our most brilliant ideas, our dumbest mistakes, and everything in between. And because this conversation will almost certainly go off the rails at some point, we'll end up covering just about everything else. And now, the AV super friends for September 13, 2024. Holy crap, it's Friday the 13th for Friday the 13th.
September 2024. 30. >> Marc Cholewczynski: What could go wrong? What could, uh, possibly go wrong with it? >> Chris Dechter: It just struck me. It's Friday 430. 40th birthday. Uh. >> Jamie Rinehart: Friday, September 43. >> Chris Dechter: Quiet, you. You're messing me up here. September 13, 2024. It's the best sounding podcast in higher ed. This is AV Super friends off the rails, and we've already done it. It was deliberate, Justin.
Don't poke holes in the theater of sound here. Uh, broadcasting live for real from coast to coast, easternmost to westernmost, northernmost and southernmost gate, post hitching post. I'm your local host who can boast the most milquetoast and utmost humility. I'm Chris Dechter. It's time for another Friday afternoon podcast adventure on Friday the 13th. And let's say hello to. I'll do it in a minute. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Push the button.
>> Chris Dechter: Shut up. You are here. There you go. That's what you wanted. Jesus, there's a whole debate. >> Jamie Rinehart: All right, that person's in a cave. >> Chris Dechter: Let's say hello to today's panel of illustrious AV super friends. So today I'm joined by a dynamic ideation specialist from Kansas City, Jamie Reinhart. >> Jamie Rinehart: I got a really special idea. >> Chris Dechter: Is it dynamic?
>> Jamie Rinehart: I'm gonna go back to the drawing board. I'll be back. >> Chris Dechter: It's a static ideation specialist, all right. Also joined by a global mobility officer from Corvallis, Oregon, Mark Cholewczynski >> Marc Cholewczynski: Let's get this thing moving around the world, gents. We can do it. Come on. >> Chris Dechter: And finally, joined by our vice president for central security from Bowling Green, Kentucky, Justin Rexing.
>> Justin Rexing: Gentlemen, don't worry, we've restocked all the ammo. Um, we're good. >> Chris Dechter: Not what that means, but I'm glad that's where you went. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Got all the ammo, just in case. >> Chris Dechter: Why won't you stop? It's stuck. Everything is stuck. >> Marc Cholewczynski: It's Friday 13th, man. >> Chris Dechter: What is happening here? Freaking out. It's freaking out, man.
We're all right. So on today's show, we're going to discuss button panels and why we love them or hate them. Uh, also going to discuss why we're overcomplicating our own troubleshooting routines. But first, not the news. It's some housekeeping. So, as a reminder, we're trying to do this every show now. We want you to connect with us on the social. So go find us on the Twitter at, uh, av super friends. We're on LinkedIn. I don't know, search for av super friends.
We're on LinkedIn. Go, uh, to YouTube on, uh, av super friends. You know, hey, there's some branding here. Uh, uh, try to keep up or keep up with us there for, uh, uh, for, um, um, uh, uh, updates and news and that sort of thing. Also, we, we. If you like what we do, we would love you to go out and spread the word. Go grab a friend, hold them down, tickle them until they start listening to the show. Um, um, take their phone away from them and go subscribe, maybe unbeknownst to what
they're doing. But, uh, uh, if everyone could do that for one or two people, that'd be great. But, um, um, please tell, tell your friends, your colleagues, your enemies, complete and total strangers about the show because that really helps. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Kind of sounds like a pyramid plan or a funnel plan, a scheme. >> Chris Dechter: Speaking of pyramid plans. Well, speaking of pyramid plans, if you want to support what we're doing, consider
donating. So if you go to the website or the link is in the show notes, if you're listening to this on the recording, um, there's a donation link there. You can send us a donation that keeps us. Keeps, uh, this house of cards held together and that keeps us bringing you, uh, the honest content that you love to hate. It's hard hitting, hard feeling, honest content. >> Justin Rexing: Clearly in the red. We're very, very much in the red.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: We went black until last week when you emptied the bank account out. >> Jamie Rinehart: That's what pays for the high end digital signage in some of our rooms. >> Chris Dechter: Like my Walmart tv. $199 from Walmart. We'd, um, love to hear from you, if you have ideas for the show, if you have complaints about stuff that we've said, if you'd like to tell us how wrong we are or how right we are.
I change those in an email filter automatically. So you put the word wrong, it says right. Um, um. Send us email mailbag at av super friends. Hit us up on Twitter, LinkedIn, or comments on YouTube. We look for that stuff. We want to hear from you. And finally, while you're on YouTube, Twitter, Spotify, Apple, whatever, wherever you're listening to this as an actual podcast, please rate and, and uh, uh, and review us on there because that
helps with the goofball algos to bump this one up. So that's all the fun stuff we. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Need you to do. Fancy jargon, the algos. >> Jamie Rinehart: Yeah. >> Chris Dechter: You guys have never heard the phrase algos before? >> Justin Rexing: Wow. >> Marc Cholewczynski: I didn't expect it coming from you, edge McKay. >> Justin Rexing: Friends, uncles from eastern Kentucky.
Algo. Uncle Algo. >> Chris Dechter: All right, so now just because you've waited for it all week, I'm just gonna move on. It's time for the news. >> Justin Rexing: We're just moving on. >> Chris Dechter: Yeah, and today's news sort of comes from Ed Scoop. Link is in the show notes. Um, and if I had another screen, I could get that onto the Twitter's LinkedIn and all that stuff, but I'm too busy right now, so figure it out. Um, comes from Ed Scoop, which is simply referring to
somebody else's actual work. But the Ed Scoop article says, look at this other article. So we're actually going to go to that thing, which is a huge survey done every year by western governors university on what teaching faculty think about generically educational technology. Some of it's software based, some of it hardware, some of it's online hybrid versus, you know, in, in a classroom. But it's, it's very wide ranging, it's very detailed and very
kind of it cover, it runs the entire gamut here. It covers everything. So, short version is, people like technology, but they're kind of concerned it's not being used to its full possible, uh, capability. I suppose it's kind of like they. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Like the idea of technology. They just don't want to be told they have to use it. >> Jamie Rinehart: Hmm. >> Chris Dechter: You have to use this.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Well, there's a lot coming at them. Can you blame them? They're tired. We're all tired. I mean, shit, look at us. We're here. >> Jamie Rinehart: Yeah, I see it as it's the, even just the, uh, the intrinsic pressure of society that everything has to be more techno. We need more techno. We need more techno. And, well, yeah, I mean, everything's an app, everything's on your phone, everything is available all the time. Everything, everything.
And, and I do see it. I mean, shoot, I, I kind of agree with the, uh, the premise, too, that I'm so over it when there's times where I go home and I, I don't want to see another screen, I don't want to be on my phone. I don't want to, I just don't want to do any of it. Um, I'm just burned out with all the extra technology and the fact that I can't get it. I feel like I can't get away from some questions, and I can't get. It's like, leave me alone. It's my time.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: There was that piece, right? They feel like they're always connected, always at work, right in that. In that bottom section there, they're talking about how they're constantly having to communicate. Just questions are coming in. It be teams or whatever platform of communication you have. You're always at work, it's always on. There's always communication. So at some certain point, we've kind of blurred those lines
between work lives and our identities there and home lives. If we're always feeling like people can contact us all the time now, I know people are going to say, oh, you set your outer office, and blah, blah, blah, blah. I get it. However, it's still there.
>> Justin Rexing: Yeah. The problem with that, though, like you said, mark, is when students are up at night trying to get their work done, they're winning access to the teacher immediately right now, because they waited the last minute and didn't prepare. And so their emergency is someone else's emergency, obviously. So they don't care about the teacher's time, so they're gonna mess with that teacher. Oh, well, the teacher set
out of office hours, and they're not available. Well, bad review, right? >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. >> Justin Rexing: Complaining, even if they're just due diligence. >> Jamie Rinehart: Just have a question. I have a question about this note. I have a question about that. I'm still up, so they must be there. They don't have the kids. Don't think about that kind of thing. I have the same 24/7 soccer team. Right. They have questions. I'm like, why are you sending
me something at 1130 at night? I'm in bed. I'm old. Oh, yeah, sorry. >> Marc Cholewczynski: There you are reading it. >> Jamie Rinehart: But I've had to kind of adjust to that, and I can kind of feel like sometimes where, like, I want to be available for my students or my kids, um, because I want to help
them. So I think there's a little bit of both there. What Justin was saying, but I also want to kind of stick up for some of the kids is they just living their life, and this is their time that they've dedicated to whatever, and they're trying to. >> Justin Rexing: Kids connect don't necessarily procrastinate. Some kids are trying to hold two jobs and do whatever and pay their way through college, and that's the only time they can work on
homework. And whatever the case is, everybody's case is different, but we're all getting a little burnout, I, uh, think with everything. >> Marc Cholewczynski: And I think that's that on demand piece of it. But then I think even if you look at the no fooling platforms and all the stuff that's being thrown at instructors and teachers now, and it's every six months, the new administration comes in, has the new shiny, silver bullet
digital thing that's going to solve all of our problems. We're going to enroll the world. We're going to be on prem remote. Everything is going to be happy and just do all this stuff. Do all your autonomy is gone now. Everything you prided yourself on an instructor is out the window. You're going to teach this regimented class with these tools, and in six months, we'll have new ones. So get ready.
>> Justin Rexing: That's what I was about to say. So as soon as you learn those tools, here comes the it assholes to update blackboard. And now everything's changed. >> Jamie Rinehart: And I think. I think that's a big part of this discussion in this survey, too, is the folks who are unhappy, um, with the use of technology or the overuse of technology is. It's that very thing. They learn how to use whatever exam software you're using, they
learn how to use. Let's shoot some of, let's face it, some of these instructors have been using the same word document syllabus for 15 years. >> Marc Cholewczynski: It was scanned off of an overhead transparency, and they're happy with m scan from a mimeograph.
>> Jamie Rinehart: And then all of a sudden, somebody comes in and says, oh, no, we have this new software, the syllabus building software, and you have to use it because it has this plugin that goes in with this other thing that goes in with this other thing, and they're like, oh, you gotta be effing kidding. >> Justin Rexing: Great. Scan this in for me. I'll be right. >> Jamie Rinehart: Exactly. So I kind of get a piece.
>> Justin Rexing: Of paper, put it in that system, I'm great. >> Jamie Rinehart: Even as a person who works with this stuff every single day, I kind of get it. There's just some times where it's like, what I had yesterday's fine. What do I need to do this again? >> Justin Rexing: Well, it almost seems like everything. Technology's supposed to make things easy. And I find myself, even me,
everything seems to be more difficult. Either I'm getting old and my hands don't work anymore, or whatever the case is, but it just feels like every little thing that we do with technology is just, why does this have to be so difficult? Why can't this be easier? >> Marc Cholewczynski: Have any of you had, like, those engaged conversations with your centers for teaching and learning, or whatever your equivalent may be? I don't know. The nomenclature. You may have.
Um. And have you ever talked about technology in a classroom? We try to do this, and oftentimes we're like, oh, no, no, no, no. We don't want to be anywhere around prescribing or defining what technologies are there. We're just about the teaching strategies. So there's this gap between the instructors and the actual mechanics that nobody wants to own. But yet here we are, trying to hold it all up like, we think you want this. You know, these. These surveys
say you should be doing these things. We're trying to do our due diligence, but then the. The actual instructors in those groups are just like, no, no, no. We don't want to go anywhere around about talking about what technology should be in a classroom. We want to have all our instructors be autonomous, do whatever they want with their curriculum. And so we're kind of at odds here, like, who's driving the ship as what should and shouldn't be there to begin with?
>> Jamie Rinehart: And I thought. And, you know, a lot of the questions in there were almost middle of the pack. Like, for as many people that were frustrated with this, with technology, there was as many people that says, hey, it's fine. We're doing great. Um, I also found my VGA. >> Marc Cholewczynski: I just plug my VGA, and it just works. >> Jamie Rinehart: If I need it, it's there. If I don't, I don't. I found I focused a little bit more
on the AI section. They had a whole section on AI, and because I was curious on how that would read as far as is this is the use of AI, I see personally, in my conversations locally that it's. It's either it's cheating or it's helping. Like, there is no. In. In the middle. Like, how can we use this? >> Justin Rexing: Yeah, so you want it to cheat and help? >> Jamie Rinehart: Like the story.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: We got to get past that cheating thing. We got to stop. There's two modes. >> Chris Dechter: You can use AI. Uh, you can use AI openly, so you're openly cheating, or you can use it secretly, so you're cheating. >> Jamie Rinehart: Well, it's. How do you use this? I would imagine years is the same conversation with calculators. Well, you can't have a calculator. Do the math by hand. Why? This damn machine does it. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Great.
>> Jamie Rinehart: Why do I need to do this now? I need to understand, Jamie. >> Chris Dechter: The answer is, because you will not. You're not going to have a calculator with you for the rest of your life in your pocket. Jokes on them. I do. >> Jamie Rinehart: So I just strap it to my wrist. >> Chris Dechter: I mean, I mean, you're a phone genius. >> Jamie Rinehart: Um, um. I went straight to the old calculator wristwatch, buddy.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. Uh, changing channels on old tvs. You were that kid. >> Chris Dechter: All right, so let's look at a couple of these key takeaways here. >> Jamie Rinehart: I, um, thought it was interesting. >> Chris Dechter: It says. >> Justin Rexing: Jesus. >> Chris Dechter: What? >> Justin Rexing: We were getting way off topic there. >> Chris Dechter: Yeah, you guys were on this.
>> Justin Rexing: You picked one little note, talking about watch calculators. >> Chris Dechter: All right, so, uh, it says 92% of faculty expect to use more ed tech in the classroom. Yeah. Okay, get that. Um. Um, 33% believe education technology only. Let me rephrase that. Only 33% believe that higher education is heading in the right direction. And I'm not sure really what that means because that sounds like it's a whole problem of things, but, um.
>> Justin Rexing: Wrong. Yeah, it's heading. >> Chris Dechter: It's too broad a question. >> Justin Rexing: Well, yeah, that seems. >> Chris Dechter: How do you want to answer it? 33% say it's heading in the right, which means 67% means going to the. >> Justin Rexing: Left in the wrong direction on the left. I'm in the 67%. I think. >> Marc Cholewczynski: That'S not today's show. >> Justin Rexing: Are we doing math?
>> Chris Dechter: Yeah, 40, um, 1% of faculty are reporting burnout, which is correlated with high levels of technology fatigue like we talked about. So there's, there's just a lot of that and it is just, it's chewing up people's time. They're not able to disconnect. Um, 40% of faculty teaching online believe it's heading in the right direction, while only 20% teaching face to face believe it's head in the right direction. So they really hate being in the classroom.
So anyway, link in the show notes if you want to dig through all the details on this. Very comprehensive, very well done to, uh, western governors university. My biggest, uh, uh, takeaway from this is they asked only 300 people, which always bothers me when I see stuff. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Like that at one school.
>> Chris Dechter: Well, they don't see, don't go into the details here. They may be published somewhere else, but says survey included data from 359 faculty across a diverse group of higher education institutions, including community colleges online, not for profit colleges, and one public four year institution, which I read that as only one public four year institution. >> Justin Rexing: Yeah, that sounds like a lot of online learning there
anyway. Mhm. >> Chris Dechter: But always good to see feedback. Mark, as you said, that, uh, the teaching side the teaching mechanics side doesn't always, as much as we would like it to, doesn't always kind of reflect what's going on with the technology and vice versa. >> Marc Cholewczynski: So we'll throw more at it. Know what they're gonna get? More technology. >> Jamie Rinehart: Yes. >> Marc Cholewczynski: They earned it. >> Justin Rexing: More document cameras.
>> Chris Dechter: Just like five or six in this room alone. It's great. >> Justin Rexing: Put more in there. >> Chris Dechter: All right, well, let's take a quick break. We're going to, uh, debut another brand new commercial, and we'll come back and, uh, talk about why we love or why we hate button panels. I guess it really depends on your perspective. >> Justin Rexing: We love button panels. >> Chris Dechter: I do.
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paradise. Independent amalgamated analog digital signage. Because who needs accuracy when you've got style? >> Chris Dechter: And, yes, that is a poster printing service we now offer. >> Marc Cholewczynski: So, yes, reach out who needs accuracy when you got style? I mean, that's it. >> Chris Dechter: I have pre printed all of my digital signage needs for the rest of the year. >> Jamie Rinehart: It's great coming to a kinko's near you.
>> Chris Dechter: It's not even a. And do it black and white at Kinko's is cheaper. >> Marc Cholewczynski: It's cheap, it's quick, it's more affordable. >> Chris Dechter: Money for color around here. All right, so, discussion, uh, at hand here is button panels, and I can't remember. I'm trying to remember how this came up. It always comes up well, but what button panels are the new touch panel? I think we. I think
all of us here like the concept of button panels. Justin likes button panels so much, he goes and removes buttons from some of them. >> Marc Cholewczynski: No, he likes cutting buttons off of remotes and stitching them together as different panels. >> Justin Rexing: That's not what I do. That's what other people do, because they didn't listen to the fact that they do need a button panel. So they ended up with a remote.
>> Chris Dechter: Isn't that just a button panel that moves around? >> Justin Rexing: It is, but it also has fancy view and configuration on it that changes settings. So that's why they started cutting off the buttons. So now it's on volume up and down and power off. >> Chris Dechter: Um, but I think from, from the standpoint of a. Again, we keep using this phrase. We always have to qualify it. A standard classroom. A basic classroom. Your, your entry level classroom.
>> Jamie Rinehart: What tier would that. >> Chris Dechter: I don't know. Tier 6.3. >> Justin Rexing: We're not doing that. >> Chris Dechter: Justin doesn't want to do tiers. How many? What bucket is it? >> Justin Rexing: Um, I'm tired. >> Chris Dechter: But I think all of us like the concept of a simple little button panel slash processor, slash whatever. That does what you need to do in a normal, regular, everyday, four square walls and 30 students classroom.
>> Justin Rexing: Yes. >> Jamie Rinehart: Agreed. >> Chris Dechter: Why aren't we doing more of them? >> Marc Cholewczynski: What do you need to get done? Like in that basic room? And I'll step up on. Off basic volume up and down. We're going to assume we have sound here, Justin. I'm just going to assume that. I don't want to wish cast that on you, but really audio. Um, and maybe a source select. I mean, does that need to be a full fledged touch panel with a
glass touch and all that fancy stuff? I mean, what I mean, shit. Put it on the wall even just like a light switch. I mean, sound blasphemous to folks, but. >> Chris Dechter: Don'T put it near the light switch because that confuses people. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah, put it at the back of the room. So you have to walk all the way in the back and then push it.
>> Chris Dechter: I was room the other day where the screen controls were not near the light switches, were not near the lectern, which was not near the screen controls, which was not near the wall button panel. I was like, great. I guess three different people did this one. So. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. You think all the carbohydrates are getting. >> Chris Dechter: Burned in that room, walking around in circles.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: So. But no, like, I keep asking for more button panels that are not old school. I want some more modern, ip based, simplified button panels. I know, I know it sounds crazy. >> Chris Dechter: But I want modern features. But in an old school button. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. I want the old form factor. Still just one gang. Put in the wall poe on, off basic stuff. Go like, that's the core. >> Chris Dechter: Does anybody make a one gang?
>> Justin Rexing: Yeah. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. Trons out there do that. Yeah. >> Justin Rexing: Crestron, Kramer. >> Chris Dechter: Mmm. M those are all like aren't they? >> Justin Rexing: No, no. >> Marc Cholewczynski: The one on one is. >> Justin Rexing: We use the RDL. Oh, okay. >> Chris Dechter: It's in a one gang but it's way. That's what confused me. I was thinking visually have a one gang panel.
>> Justin Rexing: So now NPC 3102 B is one gang. >> Chris Dechter: Um, yes. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Which I think isn't one of them. Got its. Can you. Whatever. >> Chris Dechter: Probably the useful one, right? >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. But yeah. I'm not. I had that little slider in the bottom. It's like, yeah, okay. That touch slider is interesting sometimes, but. Okay. >> Justin Rexing: That's a good slid Jamie, right.
>> Chris Dechter: Jamie just touch slid himself right off the screen. There. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Done. Yeah. >> Justin Rexing: He's out. >> Chris Dechter: He's probably like huh. >> Justin Rexing: We were just talking about his Internet and his ten meg upload speed. So. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Doing fine. He'll come back when he gets here. We'll call in on his phone, we'll.
>> Chris Dechter: Pop up on his screen and said update. Oh, I'll click that. Whoops again. >> Justin Rexing: Um, mentioning the donation page for Jamie's Internet. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Just throwing that out there. >> Chris Dechter: I would just be happy to get all the stuff off my Visa card. But um. So on the button panels, Mark, you mentioned the ones that have the capacitive slider and things. So we are seeing some newer ish and even that's seven or eight years
old. The old school ones that are the old mushy plastic buttons or the clicky plastic buttons which I liked because they have that clicky thing which actually, believe it or not, is an Ada thing that the physical tactile touch and the audible click is a deliberate ada, um, uh, feedback feature because it's. Yeah, it's literally feedback. Um, but. So let's start in general with the concept of button panels. A simple button panel, to your point, what else do you really need in a room? We're
not talking about video preview. Please stop doing video preview and all your shit. Um, we're not talking about steering camera controls around or whatever. You can recall presets, even on a button panel if you really need to. But you know, it's at a certain point you have to start determining where your feature sets lie. And yes, if you're in an active learning classroom with seven cameras and 27 microphones and 48 pods, button panel, probably not the right thing to start at.
>> Justin Rexing: But that's a, uh, studio, not a classroom. >> Chris Dechter: That's a studio classroom, Justin. That's an active learning studio classroom. Could I introduce you to my new active learning studio classroom? >> Justin Rexing: That's a lot. >> Chris Dechter: It seats 648 students. >> Marc Cholewczynski: That's another show. >> Chris Dechter: Stop building active learning classrooms with over 100 students. All right.
Anyway, um, in general, then what, what is it about button panels that we, we like as an, as a user interface and as a general av and control device? >> Justin Rexing: They're cheap. They're cheaper. They're easier to program and set up. And you don't have to worry about people going rogue with where the buttons go. You know where they're going to end up. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Is that a programmer problem? Are you allowing people to move the.
>> Justin Rexing: Buttons on your touch? That button doesn't go there. It goes over here. We don't have to have that conversation. >> Chris Dechter: Are you talking about like your, do you have a rogue programmer who comes in and just decides, you know, what today? Volume is at the top? >> Justin Rexing: No, I'm just speaking generically. We have our standard touch panel layout. I'm just, that was the benefits of.
>> Chris Dechter: So what you're saying is a consistent user experience, so they know that it's always going to look and feel the same regardless of what space they're in. >> Justin Rexing: Most, most times, yes, mostly. >> Chris Dechter: I think that's a larger cohort here. >> Marc Cholewczynski: But what are the functions you need to have done? Like, what are those core functions? I just rattle off before display on, off.
>> Justin Rexing: We just talked about that. >> Chris Dechter: It's on off. It's source select it's volume. Uh, up, down. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Mute screen up is not an acceptable answer. I'm nixing that. >> Chris Dechter: Good point. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. >> Justin Rexing: Go push the button on the wall or on button. >> Chris Dechter: Hold the stringy thingy. >> Justin Rexing: That's the on button. You don't have an extra.
>> Chris Dechter: Okay, so, but Justin, what about if I want to roll that screen up in the middle of my class? Because I want to use the white. >> Justin Rexing: Button on the wall that came up. >> Marc Cholewczynski: That's what the string is. You pull the string and it goes up. It's done. >> Justin Rexing: Or the string. You have the string. Or you have the button thing on the wall that came with the screen.
>> Chris Dechter: Do you think daylight would let me get motorized? Uh, projector screens with a string on them? >> Marc Cholewczynski: I would like to have actually a button on the wall. That's just the string. So you still gotta pull the string up and down to get the electric screen to go up and down. Like that's what you want. >> Justin Rexing: Oh, you're talking about putting the string in a conduit. We're really.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: No, no, no. The string goes right to the one gang box, and that's the button. You gotta pull it. It's like a lampshade. You gotta pull the string to go up and down. >> Chris Dechter: You could have the button there, that all it does is identify where the string is. And so then there's a little beeper on the string, and it beeps at. >> Marc Cholewczynski: There we go. >> Justin Rexing: To keep us on, keep us sane.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Okay, so in that. So I I'm not even, like, in love with even the new ones. The old ones, I think, were still fine for me. Like the old cn style on c two n, whatever those like. I still liked those. I just did the old crestnet. >> Justin Rexing: I like the knob for volume. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Oh, wait a minute. Hold on now. >> Justin Rexing: You want a knob? >> Marc Cholewczynski: Um, you want a rotary encoder on this thing?
>> Justin Rexing: Think about your cardinal. What do you like in your car? There's buttons and knobs. >> Marc Cholewczynski: I took my steering wheel out. I just have two buttons for left and right. >> Justin Rexing: Yeah, that's it. >> Chris Dechter: And they're digital buttons. 100% left, 100% right. >> Justin Rexing: I don't use a touch point.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: You go into the car, you open your map and say, go there, and it goes there. I don't need a goddamn steering wheel. >> Chris Dechter: Didn't your car break down on the highway and still out there? >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. Ah, that's litigation. We're not gonna get into that right now. >> Justin Rexing: Do you own a Tesla? >> Marc Cholewczynski: No.
>> Chris Dechter: Um, so, Justin, you raise a good point. The rotary encoders, the knobbers, they have an advantage related to. Specifically to volume, because you never have to explain to somebody, how do you do the volume? Because it's the knobber thingy there. The downside is, of course, it takes up space that you may need for something else or want to use for something else. But I don't disagree with you.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Do you think clients like that? Like, old school radio, knob for volume? Is that, like, a preferred tactile thing? >> Justin Rexing: I've. Yeah, we've. We've gotten compliments that people prefer the knob versus buttons, because is it only. >> Marc Cholewczynski: For that one feature, or would they be. Are they, like. Are they big fans of the old apad? Scroll around, iPad wheel, whoever missed those. >> Justin Rexing: So biops still makes those.
And they're. I know, not bad. >> Marc Cholewczynski: They don't make the eight pad. They make a new large dial one. >> Justin Rexing: Well, they. They make one that feels like the old ipods where you rub your finger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, you know, I don't know. It works. But I, uh. People don't like that as much. It feels old and antiquated. >> Marc Cholewczynski: But do they like using the rotary to get through selections, or they just.
>> Chris Dechter: Oh, God, no. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Okay. Okay. They wouldn't be clear. Cause, like, somebody's like, I'll just program this thing rolls. 1400 selections. No, that's not the. >> Justin Rexing: Drives me insane. Like when you're trying to figure out settings on an amplifier that has that shit and you're just, oh my God, I got to keep going. Uh. >> Marc Cholewczynski: You're like, shit. Nope, that's not it. Yeah.
>> Chris Dechter: Your favorite line of all in one laptop. >> Justin Rexing: Get the USB cable out. I'm done with this. >> Marc Cholewczynski: It's like a router switcher with a knob. You're going through 288 endpoints on there. Okay. So, um, with a processor, without a processor, what do you think? >> Chris Dechter: I like having the flexibility because there are times, especially with the basic systems, the smaller rooms, having that
all in one little device is awesome. But there are times when you may need. >> Marc Cholewczynski: There's a place for just a. Just an IP poe powered single gang button with no brain. There is a. >> Chris Dechter: Correct. Yeah. As a secondary or something. Yeah. >> Justin Rexing: Where, how, where? >> Chris Dechter: For secondary control surfaces. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. Like it. So I gen system. >> Justin Rexing: You probably have a touch panel.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: I think you could get away. >> Justin Rexing: Six gang that shit. Just together and I need a six gain. Rough it in the wall now. Like what it like, what are you talking about? >> Marc Cholewczynski: I stop at six. Let's go. Ten. Shit. >> Justin Rexing: Buttons in six gain. Here we go. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yes. It's just like one of those drum m pad things. You're just up there hitting and playing. And I. Midi
controller. Right. Just go. >> Justin Rexing: That sounds, um. >> Chris Dechter: The places I have used those, Justin is in actually in an active learning room where there is not a button panel for the main control that has a touch panel with a full processor and all the rest. But the student stations, again, kind of marks secondary controllers. Yes, secondary control, because all they're doing is display on and off and maybe select from like the instructor control to their local
input sort of thing. If you're giving that level of control, it's arguable whether or not you need that. But that is a common use case for scenarios like that. >> Justin Rexing: Yeah, I could see that. That don't happen often, though. >> Chris Dechter: Yeah, no, you're right. >> Marc Cholewczynski: You could. I would say it's like basically even a larger auditorium could actually be served that way. You're still the same basic features that exist in a small classroom.
>> Chris Dechter: Well, no, no, I think we're beyond that. We're not talking about like the purpose of the brainless ones. >> Justin Rexing: We were, we were, we started in the basic classroom and now. >> Chris Dechter: Now we're in auditoriums. >> Marc Cholewczynski: No, but I. But it is the auditorium. Is there a different fundamental goal going on in the auditorium versus the regular small class? >> Justin Rexing: It's fancier I don't need. Yeah,
I don't need to Ui eyes in there. I'll need a touch panel and a button panel. So, yeah, that has a built in processor. That's where. That's why we started talking about this. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Well, I'm going, okay, if I have all my stuff away in a rack, I've jumped to the point where I. >> Justin Rexing: Have a rack full of stuff in a standard classroom. >> Marc Cholewczynski: I'm talking auditorium. You're which one we gonna jump on here? Standard?
>> Chris Dechter: You brought up the auditorium. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yes, and I argue you could still get everything done in the larger operating room with just a button panel. You don't need a touch panel in there either. >> Chris Dechter: There is something to be said for simplifying the user experience down to the point of like, here's your same six buttons. What do you need more for right now? >> Marc Cholewczynski: I'm not saying multi display, all this whiz bang,
blah, blah. I still think the fundamental purpose is the same on off volume up source select. Now, I may have more amps and maybe an AV over ip thing. I think you can still accomplish all that. Maybe my processors, that rack over there doesn't have to be. I know I could probably wedge it all on one thing, on the little tabletop thing, but that's kind of where I want to see just the IP button panel that can connect to.
>> Chris Dechter: Well, yeah, and I guess especially if it's something that it's on, maybe a slimmer lectern or something that may get moved out of the way, depending on the type of use of the auditorium. A lot of those get used as theaters or as semi multi purpose spaces or something. So having something you can disconnect and not break the room, because that was the processor. >> Jamie Rinehart: Um.
>> Chris Dechter: Um, there's an advantage to doing that. I mean, I have spaces now that are kind of those combo use spaces. And there's a full processor and touch panel in the lectern, which gets unplugged, moved out of the way. And then we get a call that the room's not working. Uh, when you try to explain to them, it's because the thing that drives the room just got unplugged and moved out into the hallway.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Well, can you come back and plug it in for us, Chris, within ten minutes? >> Chris Dechter: Well, and sometimes, sometimes they'll get that far, they'll plug it back in and then still call us because, well, it's back on, but it's not working. Like, well, it's also been about 40 seconds. So if you wait about another seven minutes, it'll be back up and running. So, anyway, um.
All right, so I think in general, we'd say button panels. We like them. They have a lot of utility. We'd like to see more of them or more use cases of them, or, let me just say, the wider use of them in general, I suppose. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. I want to see more on the market. I want to see more, like small button panels, and I don't, the whole giant touch panel craze, I think, is kind of, I don't know if it's necessarily needed, and it's an added expense.
>> Chris Dechter: So I will say when I got to Wyoming three years ago, it's one of the, there's two specific cultural things about classroom spaces at Wyoming that I tried to stop, and I got huge amounts of pushback from. One is motorized projection screens installed in the ceiling. People in Wyoming love recessed motorized projects. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Installed in the ceiling. That way it's up there, sealed in there like a sarcophagus.
>> Chris Dechter: The number of those that I've had. >> Justin Rexing: To abandon fix it. >> Chris Dechter: Yeah, well, and the number of those I've had to abandon in place because I'm no longer using it. There's now a big display on the wall or something, so there's a huge sunk cost on that. But I tried to move to
ones just on the wall. I've tried manual ones, too. Manual. I had people come out of the woodwork to yell at me about that because they, whatever reason, they just don't like that, I think because it has the implication work. No, I think the implication is it feels cheap. And there's something about going into a space that feels, even though it's not, it feels expensive because there's a fancy motorized. >> Marc Cholewczynski: It comes in, it comes down, it does all the fancy things.
Students can see where their money's going. Look at that movement on that wall. >> Chris Dechter: Yeah, that's where money's going. That thing, there's a door that opened and it came out of the ceiling like magic. You know, it's, it. There's literally that kind of concept, which is weird. But anyway, um. Um, I even get pushback. I'm just putting a wall mounted screen. They, like, really like the recessed screens, which is ridiculous, but okay, whatever.
The other place I get pushback is I did some button panel systems in my first couple of months, and I got pushback on that because people like the touch panel. They feel it brings you, like, a fancier experience. You can argue it's worse. I think we see the same thing in cars. When you go from tactile
buttons on your instrument cluster to the giant touchscreen thing. And I think the touchscreen thing in cars is worse all the way through and through, but yet there's this feeling that it's higher tech and fancy. >> Justin Rexing: I like both. I like having the touchscreen and my knobs. >> Marc Cholewczynski: In a car, you want a touchscreen steering wheel. It doesn't actually do anything. >> Justin Rexing: It's just a big screen for the feet.
>> Chris Dechter: Swipe, bar key swipe. >> Justin Rexing: But I like my buttons for the quick. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Let me check. >> Justin Rexing: Quick action. Touch panels take longer. >> Chris Dechter: So, Justin, you're saying touch panel with all the controls on the. On every lectern, but then, like a quick access button panel off to the. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Side just in case you need it. >> Chris Dechter: Just. Just in case you don't.
>> Justin Rexing: Where's Jamie with his whack a mole? >> Marc Cholewczynski: But we do agree, like, the button panel on the. The phone is not the option, right? That's not. That's not a thing. >> Chris Dechter: Wait, using the phone as a control surface. No. That's terrible. >> Justin Rexing: Primary for sure. >> Chris Dechter: And anyone who does that, widespread, I'm driving your campus right now with a hammer.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Get right to jail. So just get the patty, wag them taking you in. >> Chris Dechter: Break all those threat non existing systems in there. Yeah. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Um, well, so here's what I've grown. Like in touch panels. It has to be faster than a phone or people will hate it. >> Chris Dechter: You don't like the really slow page flip ones? >> Marc Cholewczynski: Your phone is your litmus test.
Whatever. The most prevalent phone on your campus is touch enabled phone, your touch panels must respond faster than that device because that's the expectation that you all have all the money. So you must have the greatest, um, thing ever. So they expect that that touch panel is going to be faster and more responsive than their phone. And that means the projector turns on, things are going. Automation's happening. Bang. Because they just assume that
all the money is going into that. It has to be better than the phone in their pocket. >> Justin Rexing: As long as they have the money. We can do that. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Can you? >> Justin Rexing: Yeah. >> Marc Cholewczynski: I love can. >> Justin Rexing: It's pretty quick. You have the right parts and the setup in your system? >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah, the right kit.
>> Chris Dechter: Jamie said his Internet is out, so, Jamie, if somebody in the Kansas City area who's listening right now, please, could you get a bucket of Internet running over to Jamie's house real quick? >> Marc Cholewczynski: He needs it. A cup full of Internet will go a long way. >> Chris Dechter: Well, uh, you seem to be like a bucket. Like two gallons. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Two gallons of Internet. >> Chris Dechter: Two gallons for now.
>> Justin Rexing: What's a gallon up one gallon for down. >> Chris Dechter: Oh, I don't know about up and down. He needs four gallons of Internet. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Whoa. >> Justin Rexing: It's two and two. >> Chris Dechter: Um, so, okay, so back to the, to the button panels here then. What about the button panels? Do we not like about them? And that could be both the experience side, but also the common feature sets that they keep getting deployed with.
>> Justin Rexing: What I hate is when you don't read the full manual and when you buy one. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Wait, there's a manual? These things? >> Justin Rexing: There's a manual? M normally. Normally. And you assume because you bought one that they all work the same, but no, no, that's not true. So you buy it and it's like, oh, I can only control three Ethernet devices with this. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Hmm, yeah, I've seen what, it's
Ethernet. Right. >> Justin Rexing: Why? >> Chris Dechter: Justin, how many Ethernet devices do you have on your campus? >> Justin Rexing: It's a classroom. >> Chris Dechter: I've got like four total. So that's, that gets me almost all the way there. >> Justin Rexing: So that was interesting. >> Chris Dechter: But yes, you're right. Uh, the seemingly artificial limitation. And it may not be artificial, it may be related
to, um, processing power, because there's no fan. So it's got a. Just heat sinks and things. I get that. Or limited memory, but still, it does seem strange. >> Justin Rexing: So then you buy one manufacturer button panel and you want to control another manufacturer's DSP. Well, and it's just. >> Marc Cholewczynski: You're telling me you have different ecosystems in your learning spaces. >> Justin Rexing: Check this out. >> Marc Cholewczynski: What are you doing?
>> Justin Rexing: Check this out. So because I couldn't get those two to talk together, the button panel then required an Ethernet to rs 232 adapter. >> Marc Cholewczynski: I'm out. >> Justin Rexing: That would then talk to. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Nope. Put it on the trash, send the back. >> Justin Rexing: What are we doing? So be careful when you're buying button panels because Ethernet control doesn't always mean. Ethernet control.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Yes. Let's just make that as a build of PSA. If you're a manufacturer listening here, if you're making a thing and it has ethernet on it and it's button panel, it better be controlling shit. It better not. Just so it can be online out, has to do things. >> Justin Rexing: It does control Ethernet things, but only if it's within that ecosystem of the manufacturer. No, but once that leaves a different manufacturer.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Not an except, you have to buy. >> Justin Rexing: The breakout rs 232. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Nope. >> Justin Rexing: Like why? >> Chris Dechter: You're saying. Because they're, they're providing only, only the, the drivers, the modules, the plugins necessary to drive their own devices over that code. Right. Over that specialized interface. >> Justin Rexing: It's a simplified, like we could, we would try to write the
code, it's like, no, you can't do it. You have to do it in this manner. >> Chris Dechter: And you want to create custom modules with just hex strings all day long. >> Marc Cholewczynski: So, yeah, just give me the ability to ship a hex string and I'll be fine with that. >> Justin Rexing: Some button panels, um, don't always work with the manufacturer's templated programming. So we just bought, uh, and I'll pick on QSys here. Just because it wasn't, well, it was.
>> Chris Dechter: Not their problem, because doesn't make a button panel. >> Justin Rexing: They make, there's a kind of way about that they kind of do. So I was going to bring this up. They sort of make that c. One thing that was a tarot tech, right? That's not really a button panel. It's like a single knobber button controller. >> Chris Dechter: QC even wants to acknowledge that they own a teratek.
>> Justin Rexing: Well, yeah. So here's, uh, here's another example with that. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Come clean. >> Justin Rexing: So if you use their module, you can only do this much with that panel, but if you don't use the. >> Marc Cholewczynski: QSys module with tech, what is in that, those rails? Give me, give me an idea what's going on? >> Justin Rexing: I can't remember. >> Chris Dechter: Like only on, no off.
>> Justin Rexing: Like there was no feedback. There was something we were trying to, it was, it was for a press box, so we had one in each room. We have those that we wanted to do selection of the source and turn it up individually. But because we were using QCIS module, we could only turn volume up and down and mute and couldn't exactly do what we wanted to. But once you got out of their templated module and wrote
it yourself, you can do whatever you want. So button panels are very, people don't necessarily use them the way we intend to use them. So if you're shopping for button panels, 100%, buy it first and try it out first before you deploy it. Because we did that and we started, we started getting burned a couple times because we bought a few. We tried it out on our basic systems, like, oh, this stuff works like the Ethernet control worked. Everything, uh, that we tried worked.
Moved it to a different type of system with a different manufacturer. Dspein that one situation, it didn't work. It's like, why? Well, they just don't get along. So you have to buy some more stuff from this other Manufacturer to talk over rs 232 with it. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Um, so what sometimes it gets, what about rs 232? Just native on the Button panel, yes or no? Obviously I have a processor. Is that something you guys are using leverage.
>> Chris Dechter: I want to say yes, but only as a utility. It's not going to be a primary use case. >> Justin Rexing: I would use it. I would like. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Somebody's gonna say, well, that's my new screen control. That's like the one. >> Chris Dechter: No, you do that through GPio. I don't care what anybody says about voltage. Yes. Because it drives twelve volt. I don't care what they say. Do it all day long. All
right. Um, but to your point, I mean, I think having a 232 port on there has Utility, and that requires a three pin, 3.5 millimeter captive screw connector. So it doesn't take up a huge amount of space. So you can wedge one of those on there. If you can do that, great. I'm probably going to use it 10% of the time for some nearby device sort of thing, but. Or like Justin said, sometimes you have to use a two, uh, hundred 32 commands because the IP doesn't
want to go to something nearby. And if it's nearby, it's right in the lectern or next door or something like that. Fine. But I would love to see just more and more flexible and straight up IP control for you. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Definitely want to keep that rs 485, though, right? You need that? Yes. >> Justin Rexing: And Poe needs to be po. >> Chris Dechter: Yes, absolutely. >> Justin Rexing: Poe, yes. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Um, at this point.
>> Chris Dechter: But I would say I would love to have two or three ports of your selected ecosystems proprietary control service on there, if you could do that. I love that from all the manufacturers who all have their own mystical, magical. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Bus service just wedged on the back. And you can modify it out to whatever you want. >> Chris Dechter: Can I get a centronix on the back, please? A 50 pin. >> Justin Rexing: This requires a seven inch deep
box. So now I have to build my walls deeper for this button panel. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. >> Justin Rexing: Don't make special button panels. Just make them basic. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. Okay. >> Chris Dechter: But on the 232 and there, because I'm looking at my notes here because we have notes, there's notes.
Um, we wanted to bring up unidirectional 232, which does sneak its way onto little devices like this because it saves a little bit of processing power, but it also saves the physical port needed to do that. This drives me up a frickin wall. I understand the utility, but just what you need to do is when someone tries to order that one, you call them. The manufacturers need to call and say, say, what are you doing? Because that's not really what that's for.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: So just send it. >> Chris Dechter: If you're gonna do that, just use freaking ir at that point. I mean, what's the point? Unidirectional 232. >> Marc Cholewczynski: So speaking of IR, do we need IR on these things? No, that's right. It's the right answer. >> Justin Rexing: If you do, you made a mistake. >> Marc Cholewczynski: If you found you're using a button panel and then using IR, just use the remote that the thing shipped with.
>> Chris Dechter: Well, what if someone's already cut all the buttons off? >> Justin Rexing: Well, we had a situation where we had to use IR because here the people wouldn't buy a pro grade tv. So. >> Chris Dechter: Oh, yeah, I found, I found some of those in a recent project. They said, and we already bought the displays. So I go over and look at them, and they are off the shelf, like, straight up tv. Tvs, and I'm not gonna use those.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: But they were probably so happy to tell you that we saved you guys time. We already went ahead and bought all the tvs for you. Don't worry about that. That's. They're saving you so much headache. It's the best. >> Justin Rexing: Yes, they're saving something. >> Chris Dechter: Okay, so, um, Justin, you did mention, I do want to bring
up one more thing you did mention. As far as things we don't like, but also things we like, I guess things we don't like are the non poe button panels. Again, I understand there's some, there's some, there's some power issues here and there's some processing headroom necessary for that. I get it from a manufacturing standpoint, but it drives me nuts when I see something that, like, hey, this looks like it'd be perfect for this project. Oh, on the back, there's a little two pin
24 volts connector. So now I have to fish power through the wall. And I don't, I don't want to deal with that because depending on where you are and your ahj, ah, you may have different requirements now for that pathway. You can no longer use open void walls or, you know, it becomes a whole thing. I don't want to deal with it.
So if it doesn't do enough power, then just like, put a big old freaking IEC on the front of the thing and make it ugly as far as I'm concerned, because I'm not buying that either. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Boom. Twist lock on m there. >> Chris Dechter: Um, but, yes, so they should be poe powered and do lots of IP control. And that's really what we're looking for. >> Justin Rexing: In a button pinnae light and click feedback. >> Chris Dechter: Oh, yes, yes.
>> Justin Rexing: We talked about clicking, but the light feedback, the visual. >> Marc Cholewczynski: See it? Yeah. Okay. >> Justin Rexing: Most of them have that. >> Chris Dechter: Uh, m mark, I know you use a lot of the ones that are just that kind of capacitive surface on the front because it's slick and clean. And I get the concept of that, especially when
the light is off. The selected light is off, the button is off, it's invisible, it's black, and you don't see it. Do you ever get complaints or concerns or whatever about the fact that there's no tactile feedback to that? >> Marc Cholewczynski: You know, I don't think so. I think people just want this stuff to just work. I mean, they want to see what's selected, obviously, but I don't think we've got
anybody. I wish I could hear and or see this brighter. M maybe there's a few instances of people like, hey, can you make that brighter? >> Justin Rexing: People probably think that, but they're not going to report it. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah, that's going to take time for them to log into somebody, man. >> Justin Rexing: I really wish that I could. >> Marc Cholewczynski: I may want that, but I'm just going to call in on the last three minutes of
my class and say, hey, nothing works. I got to go. Boom. That's it. >> Chris Dechter: That's how I report that nothing has worked all semester. That's my favorite. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yes, nothing has worked. It's the last day of class. I don't have time to give you my name, but just send them down right now. Bye. >> Chris Dechter: Nothing has worked in this room for weeks.
Really? I still get those. I would say about once a month. You get the throwaway comment about this room never works, or, we always have trouble with this room, or nothing has worked in here for weeks, and yet there's eight other classes in there, and there's no tickets. And we've checked it five times in that amount of time. So it's like, what's going on in there? >> Marc Cholewczynski: Okay, well, button panels are a thing.
>> Chris Dechter: Get more m. Button panels are a thing. So, uh, we have a note here. Um, there are third, uh, party button panels that you can use with your control system du jour, if that is your choice. So, um, extron, crestron are big on button, multiple models of button panels, button controllers, that sort of thing. Lots of, lots of options there.
>> Justin Rexing: Now, I will say that we do sometimes beat up on the trons quite a bit, but crestron and extron probably are my favorite button panels, I would. >> Chris Dechter: Say, by far extra. And I like the really old school extron clicky panels, plastic ones you can take off and print your own labels and stick them under. People love those. >> Marc Cholewczynski: The original ones you ordered 14 years ago are still working.
>> Chris Dechter: The ones that are still working. Yeah. >> Justin Rexing: Uh, two gain with the knob. That's. That's. I like that one. >> Marc Cholewczynski: The 302. That guy. >> Justin Rexing: 300. >> Marc Cholewczynski: With, like, the 300 and actual, like, the mechanical buttons that are on it. >> Justin Rexing: Yes. That one's, like 95% per. >> Marc Cholewczynski: I may have put one of those on somebody's desk the other day.
>> Justin Rexing: They're pretty nice, man. >> Chris Dechter: Like, without them asking. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Well, snuck it on there, and just like, well, I'm cleaning out my desk. Let m me just put this one. >> Chris Dechter: Over here, install this on there. >> Marc Cholewczynski: You know who you are. >> Justin Rexing: Ship me one extra. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Shit. It was hooked to a project that was.
That knob that was on there that was going to be, like, the subwoofer volume for a very specific project. If you're out there listening, that's what it's for. Yes, I know. But when coaches want it, they want it. >> Chris Dechter: By the way, Xtron still does sell the MLC 226 IP, which I believe dates from, like, 2004. >> Justin Rexing: I remember that they did one order. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Of those and just got billions of them. They just sit on containers of them.
>> Justin Rexing: That's probably their top selling product of all time. >> Chris Dechter: I would not be surprised, Justin, to hear that something like that, that they sell tons of those to just school districts and things. Because, um, now it does have a DB nine on the back mark, so you're good to go there. >> Marc Cholewczynski: No, I know. Yeah. You can do whatever you want. >> Chris Dechter: Um, I do want to.
So, we did mention extra and crusher and both have a line of button panels. We like those. I can't speak to AMX because the two people who use that or. I don't know if you're one of the two people using AMX, please let us know which they make button panels. >> Justin Rexing: I'm, uh, not button panels out there. For all the other manufacturers, you are definitely beneath extra on a crestron, so step up your game.
>> Chris Dechter: I'm going to point out it's open feedback to, uh, q sys. Where the hell's your button panel? Um, Justin, as you said, yes, there is the c one from Entero tech. That's not it. That's not what we mean. >> Justin Rexing: And m. Uh, even really, q system. >> Chris Dechter: Doesn'T want to acknowledge that they own that. Yes, you can use third parties through key digital or Kramer or something like that and make that work. I get it.
But where's your first party? Little eight button button panel? It's not difficult. I get it. Your ecosystem is smaller, whatever. But come on, get with the times. So, free feedback and product development for the folks at Q system. >> Marc Cholewczynski: What's old is new. >> Chris Dechter: Again, um, we want. Kramer has them for their system. I does that loan. I have a button pill. I'm trying to get anyone else. Who else, yes. Has little ecosystems with stuff like Aurora.
>> Justin Rexing: Liberty. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Liberty has. >> Chris Dechter: Aurora does have a whole line. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. >> Chris Dechter: Uh, the hall research set, those white label ones, those are. Those are actually pretty solid for a. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Very basic room kit. One. Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> Chris Dechter: There's, like, six little buttons in a tiny little knobber.
>> Justin Rexing: We've tried all of them, I think. >> Chris Dechter: Well, what's your favorite, then? >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah, what do you think? >> Justin Rexing: Crestron's. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Which one? >> Chris Dechter: Uh, pick one. >> Justin Rexing: The two. >> Marc Cholewczynski: The 302. >> Justin Rexing: The 302, yeah. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Or do you, like, like, the 201? You have to get, like, the fancy.
>> Jamie Rinehart: Trim. >> Chris Dechter: Which is the one. You have to use the special tool to get the front plate off. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Oh, that. The little torx bit thing in the bottom. >> Chris Dechter: Yeah, but you have to, like, pry it off carefully. And if you just have, like. If you tell a tech over the phone that. That just pops off of there and they put their fingers back
there, there's usually a cracking noise, and then they. They wonder if it's supposed to come off pieces. >> Marc Cholewczynski: I don't know what happened, but. >> Chris Dechter: Yeah. Hey. Yeah, this looks like it's broken. Like, what's it. Did it look like that before you started prying at it with your. With your leatherman? It's unrelated. All right, so button, um, panels are still a thing. We like button
panels. We, uh, like poe button panels with lots of IP control, and Q system needs a button panel, because I think that sums up everything we said in the last 30 minutes. >> Justin Rexing: Sure. >> Chris Dechter: Okay. >> Justin Rexing: Right. >> Chris Dechter: I don't know. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Just get us out of here. >> Chris Dechter: We're going to debut another commercial, and then we'll come back and talk, uh, about troubleshooting stuff.
Where's this thing here? >> Speaker F: Are you tired of juggling between multiple screens and consoles just to get a grasp of your digital empire and keep an eye on all your AV devices? Introducing the game changer you've been waiting for. The Al, in one console by independent amalgamated, a single pane of glass that watches over all your platforms, collating reports and usage details with the precision of a digital
maestro. But here's the kicker. It's not some fancy AI doing the heavy lifting. This is Al. That's right. A man named Al. >> Marc Cholewczynski: That's right, folks, I'm Al, your digital sidekick. I manually sift through the day, crunch those numbers, and serve you with the juiciest insights on a silver platter with. >> Speaker F: The Alan one console, bid farewell to the days of drowning in a sea of screens. Al here ensures you've got everything you need right at your fingertips.
Worried about compatibility issues? Fear not. Al's got your back seamlessly integrating with all your existing platforms. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Whether it's device uptime, routed signals, network traffic, or meeting schedules, I've got it covered. >> Speaker F: So why waste time wrestling with multiple consoles when you can have the simplicity and efficiency of the allen one console? Upgrade your digital game today. Visit our website now and let Al be your
digital guru. Independent amalgamated's Al in one console, simplifying complexity. Al at once. >> Chris Dechter: Al is a busy guy. >> Justin Rexing: All right, we are. We're sorry for that commercial. No way. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Don't apologize. >> Chris Dechter: That commercial is awesome. Uh, Justin, you don't like that commercial? >> Justin Rexing: That's the first time I've heard that. That was pretty stupid. Let's move on.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah, Chris and I hear these things all the time. >> Chris Dechter: I've got, like, 30 more of those to go. Justin, there's a list of these. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Long, long day. >> Chris Dechter: I'm just gonna start running them in order, so. All right, um, for our final segment today. Oh, shoot, I almost forgot again. All right, um, we're gonna try this house of cards. Hold on to your butts, um, for you. So during our
last segment, we're gonna take live calls. So if you're working on something or if you want to call in and talk to us about what we're talking about or whatever, please feel free to give that number a call. And hopefully this works. I tested it earlier. It was working. So we will see what happens here. >> Justin Rexing: But anyway, it was working earlier. >> Chris Dechter: Could be Justin heard a witness.
All right, so for our final segment, we're gonna talk about troubleshooting. And what we've noticed is, is the propensity for people to always start with the most difficult solution. >> Justin Rexing: So let me start this thing that they don't know yes. >> Marc Cholewczynski: About. >> Justin Rexing: It's like the black box effect. It's. I don't know about that. We gotta attack that.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: So I brought this up in our notes. In dealing with outside integration, contract services who are covering things for warranty and yada, yada, yada. It always feels like when there's something weird, it's always the. Like you said, the thing they don't know about or the most expensive part of the project. It's like, what? >> Justin Rexing: It's usually networking. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. These days it can be.
I've had people say, oh, your network is causing problems. Problems with this? >> Chris Dechter: Well, there's that a lot, yes. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Well, no, my network doesn't just randomly spit out shit that way. That's not how it works. >> Justin Rexing: But then sometimes it does. >> Marc Cholewczynski: We've had one instance where they're like, oh, it's the whole video switching ip piece. We have to take all that out. It's like, no,
you don't. And it's just, uh, always amazing when you ask a question about something specific. You get no answer. But the problem is always that most complex thing. It's like, what about all the other easy stuff? Have we tried any of that stuff yet, or. No, of course. >> Justin Rexing: Why would you try the easy stuff? It's like, come on. >> Marc Cholewczynski: I mean, I've gone on some integration where it's like, okay, well, that patch panel is not even grounded. That couldn't be
a problem. And what about these raggedy looking jumpers in this? That can't be it either. I can't, I can't imagine it's any of that stuff. >> Chris Dechter: Yeah, I think it's. I can see a conductor sneaking out of the side of that termination. Maybe we want to check that first. >> Justin Rexing: It's coming down to the human part of this, right? And we, as humans, what we do, we try to, it depends on the human, but a lot of humans try to pick one.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Pick one human. >> Justin Rexing: Like, I'm gonna look elsewhere for the problem, Stan. >> Chris Dechter: Me, Stan doing it. >> Justin Rexing: Right. And so I programmed this. It's got to be a pin, two, three problem. I installed this. It's got to be a programming issue. I configured this. It must be an installation issue because somebody else installed it. I'm just the configurator.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Whoever's not there, it's their fault, their problem. >> Justin Rexing: That's usually what I see of where this, this starts, and then it goes down these little rabbit holes of these complex problems, because the resident expert of whatever is getting blamed is not on site. And that's basically it. That's all it comes down to.
>> Chris Dechter: Well, even, even beyond that, uh, I think there's, and you just, you mentioned the black box effect, which I like that, that phrasing on that, that. It must be the complex thing that's broken. It's not something simple. It must be in the software. >> Justin Rexing: It m must be in the programming. Like, to a networking career, the network switch is the most simple thing in our system.
>> Chris Dechter: Right. Let me dial it way back to a, uh, you know, an entry level two or three year experience. Uh, AV technician. Something's not working. They want to go into the software. They want to go into the config. They want to talk to the programmer. They want to go through all of that. Stuff. Not check connections they don't want to check, you know, is something loose or they're, you know, because honestly, a lot of times it comes down
to a layer one thing. Um. Mark, I think that's how you refer to that. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. That's how you should troubleshoot. >> Chris Dechter: Beyond that, I think a lot of times, and I've worked with people in the past, uh, I think they want to be a layer zero thing. That is to say, they want it to be the device itself. Oh, you're not getting sound. The amp is bad. Like, how
did you determine that? Yeah, let's. Let's replace things. And I think a lot of that is they want to be seen as doing something and running in and swapping out an amplifier, which has the unnecessary, not unnecessary, unintended effect of them re reterminating or reconnecting all the cables, which probably was part of the issue. Um, yes, it worked. And now they've done that enough that they know those amps die a lot. I'm gonna just go swap it the next time there's a problem.
Even though that had nothing to do with actually happened. >> Justin Rexing: You're actually terrible at terminating speaker cable, is the actual root cause of that issue, is what you're saying. >> Jamie Rinehart: Cut. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Getting those two right cables in there. >> Chris Dechter: I strip it down to just one last little conductor. I break all those strands off. Just one. That's the primary. That's all you need.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Teeniest bit of that block, right? Yeah. >> Chris Dechter: Um, but a lot of those. I mean, in a lot of our spaces, we have the ones where the system first got installed in the room twelve or 14 years ago. And then three years after that, this got changed. And ten or five years after that, we added this. And two years later we added that. And over that time, those cables get jerked around and moved and whatever. And people rarely ever go back and sit down and
redress all the cables in elector in Iraq. It's just kind of over time, it builds up crap and something worked its way loose. And that's where you have your badlandhouse. I'm, um, just going back to amplifier. You're bad audio. We're only getting out of one channel over here, and. But the first thing they want to do is swap the amp. And it's like, well, I think you're. You're looking at. You're looking for a solution where there isn't a problem. And we see that same
thing with software configuration. Because I didn't do that. I didn't configure this box. I didn't program. I don't know. It's a mystery. It's probably that don't trust it. >> Justin Rexing: Someone else did it. I don't trust that person. I don't really understand what's going on in this box. That has to be the problem. Right? That's. That's the human part of this.
>> Chris Dechter: Well, and you can even have weird things that you wouldn't think get affected, like HDCP can rear its ugly head based on borderline poor terminations of cat cables running for, you know, HD based TDM, DTP, whatever you want to use. If something's not making all the correct communication and doesn't handshake in time or it induces a little bit of latency, especially with HTCP. What are we up to now? 2.98,
something like that? Um, that has ridiculous requirements as far as the amount of time for that handshake to take place. That can cause, you know, that screen in the back flickers. Well, no, what you're seeing is encryption coming in and, you know, dropping the image. But it all comes down to a bad term or a borderline termination. Not a bad termination, but a borderline termination that has been moved around enough and it's just slightly disconnected, whatever it is. And
so it can be weird stuff like that. So I would say, yeah, start at your layer one and start at your simple stuff and work your way up to the complex things. Not immediately starting with it's, you know, it's your network or it's the program or it's, you know, this mystery box, which I didn't have anything to do with. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Always the worst thing always has to be no way around it. >> Chris Dechter: Or at least the most expensive thing.
>> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. And the ones that are going to require two more visits on site. >> Chris Dechter: Oh, that's. What. What did you say the other day? They wanted to. Somebody wanted to pull something and then ship it off or something. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah, pull it out, ship it off. Leaving the event venue, like, non operable. It's like, bro, that's not a solution. Like, at all. Like, you can get the thing you think needs to be replaced with and show up
with it in hand and then pull the other one out. But I'm not shipping you this one, this pack for you to then. Wait. That's not even a solution. >> Chris Dechter: Well, but they're doing something, right? >> Marc Cholewczynski: Allegedly. >> Justin Rexing: M. They're working. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Sort of, yes. They got up in the morning and did something and spent their day doing something. But I don't know if it was very much productivity, but it was something.
>> Chris Dechter: The service ticket, said, make service call. And they did. Job done. >> Marc Cholewczynski: They got paid to show up. They thought their job was just to go there and then go back. But I needed some solution. But that was. >> Chris Dechter: Oh, that wasn't to be had. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Turns out there was a cable pin. Three was bad. >> Chris Dechter: Um, yeah, so look
for those simple things. Build your. Build your. Work your way up from those, uh. Um. As you work your way through the. >> Marc Cholewczynski: System, do you guys take that OSI approach to troubleshooting? Like, go through that? Like, work your way up? >> Chris Dechter: Applied that to AV. But that's an interesting perspective, I think. But I do start with, like, let's, let's check with connections and let's start with
basics and let's see what's been ripped loose or the ever popular in classrooms. You see this all the time. Someone has taken the, the cable out of the lectern and they plugged in the back of the monitor. Cause they saw a loose cable there, and that's causing the computer to freak out, which now makes the projector blink. And so it traces it all the way down as to what's going on. And all came down to somebody thought they were being helpful and plugged in a cable to the wrong
spot, which you experienced that a few enough times. You walk in a room, you see that in 8 seconds. But somebody who's never run into that or is immediately jumping into like, let's get into the program and look and see what's seeing on the other end. You know, it's like, no, you're. You're going to spend hours in there and never come across that. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Let's. You get that. People like, oh, I need support, or
Crestron. It's going to call out Crestron. It could be any of your trons, any your sisters of the world. You have a room. And whenever you're. Whenever somebody's like, oh, we're going to support that. Oh, I have to go get Crestron certified in programming just to support the room.
>> Justin Rexing: No, you don't say. I will say, for those of you who are complaining about people's help desk when they answer and ask you basic questions, there's a reason, uh, why they're going through a checklist. Because it's stupid people that call in with simple problems that waste. >> Chris Dechter: They're not stupid people, Justin. There are people just wasting everyone's time. And by wasting your time, yep, that's all it is. >> Justin Rexing: You're wasting time.
>> Chris Dechter: And, uh, that's why it's an open joke. Have you checked your firmware versions and things like, because a lot of people don't do that. So for every one of you who get frustrated, yes, I've done that. I'm online with true blue. You should bypass all the stuff. No. >> Justin Rexing: If you're the one that gets frustrated, realize, like, well, did I do my due diligence? >> Marc Cholewczynski: Do all that stuff, right?
>> Chris Dechter: If not, I'm gonna say open call to any of you who work at the tier one service desks of these major manufacturers, please send us a list of these people who are not doing that, and we will call them out live. >> Marc Cholewczynski: We'll read down the list. >> Chris Dechter: We will call them literally on the phone and ask them why they don't do that. >> Marc Cholewczynski: There you go. >> Chris Dechter: M. Um.
>> Justin Rexing: Just don't get mad when other people do that. >> Jamie Rinehart: It. >> Chris Dechter: Because people do it. I was talking to a manufacturer rep a few weeks ago about this, and they said they are used to, they spend so much of the time going on job sites for big, big projects with big integrators, big consultants, big construction firms, all this stuff. And they spend days doing nothing but firmware on site, on site firmware pusher, on
site fixing. Because that's how they're. Because it gets escalated to the point where now the manufacturer is shipping out an engineer to go out, out and look at this, and they spend time just doing firmware because none of that, it's out of the box and racked up, and none of that stuff has ever been addressed. And these are huge, big name companies that are doing this stuff. And these are the same ones who want to charge you $150 an hour to have one of their installers come by. So,
yeah, it happens to the best of us. They're out there, and to me. >> Marc Cholewczynski: So everybody. Yeah. >> Chris Dechter: Well, the best of us and also me. Okay. Any last thoughts on, um, uh, troubleshooting any of that stuff, general check. >> Marc Cholewczynski: The easy thing first. >> Justin Rexing: Check your. Check your own work first. Make sure you didn't screw anything up in your own world before you start blaming other people.
>> Chris Dechter: Or at least. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Fair enough. >> Chris Dechter: Check your work while you're blaming other people. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Yeah. And then that's afterwards. >> Justin Rexing: Yeah. Ah, it's a tight rope there. >> Chris Dechter: Yeah. Alrighty. Well, we'll roll out of here. We'll be back next week with, uh. What are we doing next week? Next week are we doing. I don't remember. We'll do it. We'll be
back next week, Friday at 03:00 p.m. eastern. 12:00 p.m. pacific ish with another show of some amount of content. Um, thanks to everyone. Uh, we're going to start streaming live every week because we're just doing it anyway. So. Justin, that means you do have to wear a clean shirt, so just underwear is optional. >> Marc Cholewczynski: You don't worry about that. >> Justin Rexing: I got it together today.
>> Chris Dechter: You mentioned today gets on the call. He's like, wait, are we streaming today? You better go. Better to get a better shirt. >> Justin Rexing: See, Chris is all dressed up with his background. I was like, oh, look at this. >> Marc Cholewczynski: I mean, we. Crafts time over here. >> Chris Dechter: Oh, I forgot. Yeah, hold on. Let me fix that for you, Mark. Um, there you go. Look at that. >> Justin Rexing: There it is.
>> Chris Dechter: Just. Just to distract. Just to call out. So, all right, we'll be back next week with another live show of, uh, all this stuff, and we are gonna start doing the call thing every show towards the end. So we'll call. Get used to that. If you have questions, you want to talk about what we're talking about or you want to just yell at us, bye. How dumb we are. We'll take those fine, too. >> Marc Cholewczynski: Well, that's totally acceptable call.
>> Chris Dechter: Well, it's an expected call. >> Justin Rexing: Yeah, that happens all the time at work, so it's okay. >> Chris Dechter: Just constantly. It's on my calendar. Hourly. >> Justin Rexing: Yeah. >> Chris Dechter: I have another person come over, tell me how wrong I am about stuff. >> Justin Rexing: Pretty much. >> Chris Dechter: All right, well, we'll do that, and we'll see you guys next week. >> Marc Cholewczynski: See you guys.
>> Chris Dechter: Thanks, y'all. Well, we've managed to ruin yet another episode of AV Super Friends off the rails. You can contact us with questions, topic ideas, or general complaints@mailbagvsuperfriends.com. if you complain loud enough, we might just invite you on the show. Nice work, everyone. Sharp broadcast. Really good. Everyone on the floor as well. Really
a lot of hustle. I liked it. The opinions expressed by the AV super friends are solely the those of the individuals and do not represent their respective institutions, organizations, companies, or clients.