208: BMW X5 No Start After Engine Swap

Hey guys , if you're looking for programming laptops , you want the laptop set up , ready to go for programming control modules on vehicles . You need key cutting equipment . You need diagnostic tools . Isaac is your guy , has all that stuff available for purchase and the support that he offers along with the purchase has been outstanding .

I bought some stuff from him in the past . I got my dolphin key cutting tool from him several years back and again the support has been phenomenal . Help me out along the way with anything additional I needed to make it work for me , so make sure to check that out as well . Again , that's autorescuetoolscom . The link will be in the show notes .

This episode is brought to you by L1 Automotive Training and Keith Perkins . If you're looking for education on module programming , j2534 , eprom work , key and immobilizer , electrical diagnostics or drivability diagnostics , keith has a website , l1trainingcom , that's got over 60 hours of training videos on all those subjects and more .

When I first started out doing mobile , I utilized Keith's videos on module programming and J2534 in order to get my head wrapped around what I would need for the tooling , the computers , the software setups , what kind of obstacles I would be up against when I'm out there programming modules on cars .

And it was a huge benefit to me and I continue to use the training videos that he has on his website . So I strongly recommend checking out L1Trainingcom . Hey , what's going on ? Automotive World . Welcome to another episode of the Automotive Diagnostic Podcast . My name is Sean Tipping . I'll be your host once again for today's episode .

Thank you so much for joining me . I'm going to share another case study where I got my butt kicked , because that's what I want to do on this show as much as possible . To be clear , I do fix a lot of cars and a lot of them are not that hard . A lot of them end up being real easy stuff .

But I'm doing an increasing volume of diagnostics and with that , just by law of averages , you're going to get some that challenge , you can kick your butt , and those are the ones I want to talk about on the podcast .

So if you listen to this and you're like , wow , sean's also getting his butt kicked on cars it's not every day , all the time , but it is becoming more frequent because I'm seeing more vehicles and this is one of them and again want to share it with everybody . So this is a 2012 BMW X5 .

And the shop called me in so they swapped an engine over on this thing . Now they did buy this from the auction . It's a used car lot . They're doing this as a resale deal , but they swapped the engine over and after they swap the engine over , it won't start Cranks , but doesn't start .

Okay , and there's a ton of reasons why this could happen A lot of things that could have been overlooked or missed , and we don't know . Did this thing run beforehand or not ? But they know it doesn't run now and they want me to diagnose why it's not starting so they can get it going .

Okay , cool , now let's service it off , or I'll definitely come in and do that . They did mention that the old engine , because I asked them why they replaced it . The old engine was mechanically severely damaged Right , had detonated inside for one reason or another . Okay , cool , but we still don't know if it ran beforehand or not .

But it doesn't run now , so let's look into it . To this they also mentioned that it sat for a year plus before they did anything with it . Okay , and that's important to know too , because it could just be bad gas , right , who you know might have been sitting for a long time could have got water in the fuel tank if it was outside .

Things were exposed as possible too . These are things that I'm going to ask and get as much information as possible before I jump in to a vehicle like this . So I'm going to start with a full system scan see what's going on with this thing , and the relevant code that I had out of this thing was a 3719 .

That's the code I got out of the tool that I was reading it with . First . There's another reference for this code 1f0514 , or a P10E3 . If you've dealt with BMW codes , I think it definitely depends on the tool you're using and the service information you're using , what code descriptor you're going to use .

But anyways , the definition for this particular code and this is the important part it says Valtronic supply voltage , short circuit to ground or open . So this is power supply to the Valtronic , which is the motor that's going to move the camshaft , the eccentric for the camshaft to change the depth of the intake valves .

On this thing and the way that this works is the DME , which is the engine control module for BMW . So if you hear me say DME in this episode I mean engine control module . It's got a grounder relay which is in a separate unit called the ISM over it's under the hood and the cowling on the passenger side area it's going to ground a relay .

That relay is going to provide power back to the ISM , back to the valve tronic motor , but then also there is a feed back to the DME , right . So the output side of this relay also feeds back into the DME and DME is going to watch that . And that's kind of where this code comes from .

As much as I can surmise , is it saying that the output side of this relay that the DME controls is either shorted or ground or open . And that's the code that keeps popping up . I can clear it .

Come right back and I'm not 100% sure if this will keep it from starting , but I mean it's important part of the motor and maybe I should pause here and just say I'm working as much as I can to learn BMW , but I'm still a newbie in the grand scheme of things . So for some of you out there listening that you work on these things all the time .

You might be screaming at certain points in this podcast saying , well , yeah , it's obvious , why didn't you check this ? Of course it was this right , I would say it's infrequent at best .

When I get these and more and more as time goes on , I am getting more experienced with the systems and with the terminology and how things drive on these cars , but it's not an everyday occurrence for me . So some of these things are a bit foreign and I have to work my way through it . So just want to put that out there .

But anyways , I don't know if power not being on this output circuit but this relay for the valve tronic system is going to keep it from starting or not . But it's my only code in my DME and it's the only thing I have to go with , so I'm going to at least check it out and see what's going on . Right , you have an issue . Let's follow it .

Let's find out what's happening . So verify , there is no power on this circuit . Okay , got my test light , put it on there . It's not there ? Okay , well , we'll follow that and figure out why , because that's what the DME is upset about . I'm upset about

it too . So the next step is . Is the DME actually grounding this relay right ? The relay is supposed to provide power to the circuit . It's not . Why not ? Now , I should say this ISM unit , this little encased black assembly which has relays inside of it that are not serviceable .

It also has fuses inside of it that are not technically serviceable , unless you're real aggressive with a razor blade or some sort of cutting device and you take this thing apart . But you can't just pop the fuses and relays out of this .

It's one black sealed unit , but anyways , one of the circuits into it is a ground control from the DME to turn on this relay . So I don't have power out of it . But do I have control to this relay ? So I checked that I don't have control to the relay and the DME is supposed to be provided in ground here . So what am I going to do ?

I'm going to ground it and see what happens . So I ground this relay , I jump a ground to it and I get power out of the relay . So , from what I can tell , the DME is not doing its job . All right , simple enough . Now I am testing at the ISM . So my next question is okay , well , they just put a motor in this thing . What are the odds ?

Maybe there's an open circuit or something like that . Let's go to the DME , which is not also the easiest thing to do on this X5 . The DME is like tucked under and literally kind of inside of the intake manifold .

If you've ever worked on one of these things , like seriously , if you unbolt the DME , you have a hole in your intake manifold , but it's tucked up underneath . You can get to this particular connector somewhat easily though that has the control wire for this relay .

So I do , I get there and I'm doing the same test I did over at the ISM , right , is the DME grounding it ? And it's not . There is no ground , but I can ground it at the DME and the relay still activates and still sends power to this valetronic unit .

So I know that the circuit is capable of grounding it , but for whatever reason , the DME is not actually doing its job and I say , okay , well , if this is my problem , let me ground this relay and then see what happens . What meaning does the vehicle start now or does something different happen ? Do I get a different code once I get past this problem ?

Well , the first thing that I did , before I even attempted to crank this thing . I was like clear the code out . I just wanted to see what will come back . Now I get a different code set this time and it's very similar in nature .

But what it says instead of the valve tronic supply voltage it says Ignition and fuel injection relay supply voltage short to ground or open . And this is now a hard code , right . So I've grounded the Control side for the valve tronic relay . It's sending power to where it's supposed to . But now we get a code for the ignition and fuel injection relay .

Now if you look at the diagram on this thing , that relays also in the ISM . It's right next to it and the circuits are right next to each other for the control to separate control wires , to separate relays , but different circuits . Now these circuits are gonna go out , they're gonna feed fuel injection components , ignition coils and also back to the DME .

And Part of the reason the DME is setting these particular codes is it's really upset about the output side of these relays , based on what I'm seeing . So now I'm gonna check that relay right , I've already been in both of these areas . They're both exposed .

I've seen the circuits and now it's setting a circuit for this ignition and fuel injection relay and I mean I'm gonna definitely check this because if this relay is an active , I could really believe that it's gonna prevent the vehicle from starting . Now . I don't know why this code wasn't in there to begin with , but it's there now and it's a hard fault .

So I check and I check the control side of this relay first , just based on what I've seen with the valve tronic one , and it does not have a ground , just like the valve tronic one did . So I do the same thing . I ground it , I hear the relay click and I checked power . I Should say I checked power on one circuit .

There are multiple output circuits for this relay . This is future Sean talking past . Sean didn't know that there was multiple outputs for this relay or didn't pay attention to the fact there's multiple outputs for this relay . Anyways , the relay did activate when I grounded it and it did the same thing .

I went over the DME and I grounded it there and the relay activated and Then my code was gone . The only code that I had at this point was if I did a full key cycle , which I had to do in order to get the vehicle to start , and it did start , but if I key-cycled it .

It then set a Code saying that the control side of the relay was stuck to ground , and of course it was . I was doing that . I was forcing both of these control wires To ground in order for both of these relays to activate , because the DME had wasn't doing it for whatever reason . But after a key cycle this thing started and ran .

Now , I didn't run it for long and that's a really important thing to point out and you'll understand why . But I didn't run it for long because they just put this engine in here and I didn't know even if it had oil , and I honestly didn't even check that , I was just seeing did it start ? But it did .

It fired up and it ran for a few seconds and then I hit the button , I shut it off and I'm like , okay , well , I'm making some serious progress here . Right , for whatever reason , these relays aren't being powered up . Okay , so after that I'm gonna go through and see why isn't the DME Activating these relays ? Like what's preventing it ?

What is it seeing or not seeing that it's causing it to ? You know , not ground these relays . Now , when I had these relays grounded again , the only codes that I get then is a code in DME saying , hey , our control side of these relays is always on ground and and again it was I was doing that .

I would expect those codes to be there , but no other codes , and it starts okay . So I don't see any other direct problems that exist on this thing . I think had I run it now , I think had I ran the vehicle for a period of time , I probably would have identified the issue quicker . But I didn't .

Just because , again , I didn't know that this thing was in a kind of state to run or if they were ready for it to be running . I assume they got it to that point when they swapped the engine . But I don't like starting things in shops .

I'll say no for sure that this engine is okay to run , it's got oil in it , it's got all the components bolted to it , so on and so forth . But anyways , my main focus right now is why is the DME not grounding these two control relays ? What's going on here ?

So I go through and basically what I'm looking for is powers and grounds , ignition wakeups , all this other stuff . I go through , I check all the ones that I can find on a diagram and it has everything . It's got all the powers . It's got all the ignition wakeups . I think honestly I did miss one , but it didn't matter that .

I missed it Again future Sean talking there . But everything I could find in the moment was there All the grounds , all the powers , everything was there . It's not grounding these relays .

And I did ask the shop . I was like I assume you guys swapped over this DME and I was pretty confident that was the case , otherwise there would have been anatheft issues . They're like yeah , this was the original one that came with the car . I'm like okay .

I was like well , it's not grounding these relays and I can ground these relays and it starts and I don't see any reason why it isn't grounding the relays . I think it needs a DME . I don't know . We don't know where this car came from , what the condition was beforehand . Okay , it's that outside , whatever . But hey , this is what I know , what's going on .

So they're like , okay , cool , can we do a used one ? Sure , can , I'm cloning it for you because I like cloning stuff . I get excited to do that when I can because you know I buy all the programming equipment . I want to use it . And so like , yeah , we can definitely clone that thing for you , I get to use one .

Make sure the part numbers match and we'll get it all cloned up for you . So we do that . They get a DME for it from a junkyard , the correct one and everything . I cloned it over and I actually plugged this thing in myself .

They kind of they had a unbolted intake manifold for this portion , but I plug it in myself and I key it up and I get the exact same thing . It's not grounding either of these relays with the new one .

And so I'm you know I'm immediately thinking back to my Volvo If you listen to this , the episode of the Volvo where I cloned over a problem into another used module . I'm like , maybe I did that on this one , so that's possible . And I actually called Fonsil and he said , yeah , that's possible , but it's really not likely .

I'm like , yeah , it's really not likely , but at this point I really wasn't sure what else it could be . I go back over , I retest all of my tests , right , I verify that the problem is the problem that I'm seeing . We're not grounding these relays , but I can ground them at the DME .

They activate , they send power where they're supposed to , or so I think I didn't start it at this point because they had the intake manifold off . Again , had I run this thing for a while , probably would have picked out the problem a lot sooner . Check my powers and grounds to the DME again to make sure I'm not missing anything .

Again , everything checks out the way it's supposed to . I even checked the case of the DME to make sure it had a ground . It was all there . And at this point I was like , hey guys , I got to do some research , I got to reach out to some people because I'm kind of at a dead end .

I don't know what else would keep this DME from counting these relays , but two different circuits . I'm not deciding , I'm not going to do it . So that was the point where actually I called Fonzlo , was talking to him about it on my ride home and he suggested calling Justin Morgan .

And I don't like to bug Justin because I'm sure there's a million people every day . They call him on BMW stuff . So I don't want to be one million and one if I can help it . But he is the guy . He's the guy if you want to know BMW stuff .

But I decided to reach out to Justin and see , you know , hey , can you give me some pointers or tips here and he was extremely helpful and give me a lot of really good information and what to check and some things that he's seen on these very commonly relating this issue . I said , okay , well , this is the obviously really good information .

I will check all this stuff . And it was with control circuits and voltage drop on the control circuits that has some potential problems . And he listed a number of other things and it was actually funny because the last thing that he listed ended up being the problem . I can share that immediately , but he did mention the exact thing that was wrong .

It was just the very last thing that he mentioned in his list of things that could cause this and he described the circuit to me a little bit and sent me some service info and , again , really , really helpful . So I want to give big shout out to Justin for taking the time to send me information and share that with me . That's huge .

I really really appreciate that and again I'm just going to say it again , so sorry , for everybody has teared again . You know , make friends with people because you're going to need them at one point or another or it's going to make your life a lot easier at one point or another , because they can point you in the right direction .

Even if they don't give you the answer , they will point you in the right direction . They will help you or even connect you with the right person , right ? That's , that's the thing , so , all right . So , anyways , I'm going to go back to the thing next day . I'm going to solve this freaking car with all this information that I've got now .

So I go through and I check some of the things he's talking about . Really , look at the voltage drop on the control circuits between the DME and this ISM . All right , those all seem to be good .

The other thing that I did was I really looked closely at all of the output circuits , and particularly for the ignition and injection relay circuits , right , because the valve tronic I think there was only one coming out of this relay , this ISM , but for the ignition relay one , there was two of them and for one of them I didn't have power coming out of there

and I don't think I had checked all of the output circuits for this relay . I thought I did , and maybe I did at one point , I'm not sure , but at this point I'm checking all of them , I'm looking at all of them , I've grounded these relays right .

Again , I'm grounding the relays , I'm forcing them to close their contacts and send power out on where they're supposed to , but one of the output circuits does not have any power right , but the input of the relay does , and the output of another leg of the relay does , but one doesn't . So I'm like , oh okay , well , it's inside of this ISM , right .

And I look and there's a fuse internal to this ISM . I'm like , well , maybe this fuse is popped right . Well , let me try providing power to this circuit . Well , I do this . I do this with a jumper wire and I've mentioned before I like to live on the edge .

My jumper wire is not fused , but when I connected this thing to the output circuit of this relay , it popped , it cracked . You could see an arc from my alligator clip to the output of this circuit , which I immediately took it away . I'm like that's not normal , that's that's a problem .

Like we have a potential fuse blown inside of this ISM and when I touch the output of this thing , like there's some serious current going through this , it's like I connected it from one side of the battery to the other . Like , okay , well , I think I'm onto something .

So I power up my test light , I touch it to this wire and it is brightly lit , meaning I've got a straight shot to ground , just like my jumper wire was kind of telling me , like okay , so I have a short to ground on this circuit . Now I'll fill you in on one of the last thing that Justin had told me .

He's like try unplugging the coils one at a time and see if the DME comes back and does what it's supposed to do . And if you follow the current path or the output path of this , this circuit that had a short to ground and had a fuse blown in the ISM , it goes to the ignition coils and I thought I actually disconnected the connector .

The very back connector on the DME has the output circuits for the coils . When I unplug that , my test light at the output side of the relay at the ISM turned off , basically meaning there's no more short to ground , right ? So the short's not in the DME , the short is through the DME but out on this leg of the circuit going to the coils .

Now I just have to figure out which coil right . So then I pull up this connector and I have my powered up test light and I touch all of the coil wires until one lights up and then I use my you know the pinouts and diagram and cylinder number five , I pull the coil out and I'll put a picture in the Facebook group .

This thing was just all melted to hell . Okay , now this is a brand new China eBay coil that somebody had put in this thing . They all were , the whole thing was all China eBay coils . I don't know if the shop did this or where they got the motor from , did this , but it was the cheapest one possible .

Now the question was was the driver in the old DME failed ? That causes things short ?

Yeah , maybe , but I'm willing to bet this is like some sort of you know Chineseium , real , just junk , cheapest part that they could find that they threw into this thing and it shorted internally , melted down , shorted the ground , caused a short to ground on the output circuit of this relay which caused the DME to shut down .

Now , why did it shut down the valve tronic relay ? I don't know . Is that some sort of default ? I'm not entirely sure . I don't have an answer for that . Maybe some of the BMW guys can tell me that for sure . Why didn't the ignition injection relay circuit code pop up initially for me . Why did it take fixing the valve tronic to get that one to show up ?

I don't know . I don't know the logic of the DME . Maybe a BMW guy can explain that to me as well . But what I think I understand a little bit more clearly is that the code that it was setting , when it said short to ground or open circuit , it really meant that hey , there could be a short to ground and you need to check for that . And I didn't .

I did not check for short to ground . I overlooked that the relay circuit for the ignition injection relay had multiple outputs . And when I ran this thing , I think had I run it for ran it for a little while longer , I would have noticed , hey , there's a really bad miss . Now would I have picked up on it and realized it was my problem ?

Given that they just put an engine in this thing , I probably am like , yeah , you probably got a dead hole , you probably go fix that or , you know , put some plugs in it , right ?

I don't know that I would have picked it out , but it would have been a giveaway at that point because that coil and whichever other ones used that power output were not functional . But I also wonder when did the fuse pop ? Was it popped the whole time ? Did I pop it while I was forcing the relay to close ?

A lot of variables on this one that I don't quite have the answers for , but I do know the solution . Right , we put a coil in it .

We ended up the shop ended up replacing that ISM because , like I said , you can take a razor blade and cut this thing open , but the fuses are not serviceable in a normal sense and they decided to leave the clone DME in there . I told them I was like there's a chance . The driver in the old one took it out , although I don't think that's what happened .

They're like that's fine , we already got it cloned over , we're going to leave that one in there . It did start , it did run , they got it out of their shop . They were happy . But that

was a struggle . I made a bad call . As far as I'm concerned , I made a bad call . I overlooked something and I want to share that with everybody .

So if there's some real , genuine BMW gurus out there and I know there are , and obviously I was describing people I talked to love to hear your input , your perspective on that , maybe how you would have approached it how you approached it in the past , how you identify something like that , because I definitely missed what I needed to see based on the scenario ,

based on what I had going on . In the future I'll understand this one a little bit better , so it's worth getting my ass kicked on this one , but hey , that's why I want to share it with you . Thanks again for listening . Really appreciate it . I hope everyone out there is doing well , making some money with that out of the way .

Let's get out there and start fixing the world , one card at a time .