BONUS: Acquaintances vs Friends

She's a professor of communications and journalism at the University of Southern California, but more importantly for us, she spends a lot of time thinking about how in ka pop fans are active partners or potentially adversaries, and not just how things are marketed, but how K pop itself is created. Just this background, we had a bunch of conversations before

I ever flew out to talk to Tableau. When I came back, she was one of the first people I wanted to talk to this sort of process, the bigger picture.

When we sat down to edit all this together, I realized that there was a whole lot of insights she gave me that went in behind the scenes that just didn't make it into the show, like the origins of K pop itself and American's attitudes toward it, and also how fan culture has changed how we gather online even before the pandemic, and also well, this is something we get to near the end of the conversation. But there is the fact that both she and I are professors.

There was some stuff I wanted to ask her advice about. So with all that said, I present to you the final Bonus episode, an extended conversation with Professor hedging Lee. I hope you'll dig it. So my name is Hedging Lee and I am clinical Assistant professor at Annimburgh School of Communication and Journalism at USC. I teach classes on popular culture, visual culture, and media consumption, and right now my focus is on K pop. I started looking at K pop as mostly as a bystander for a long

period of time. I grew up listening to a lot of them, but I didn't think about studying it until I came to USC back in I started getting questions from students about K pop, like my what, my thoughts are uncertain artists, and I realized that there is actually some kind of demand from students about wanting to learn about K pop, Like K pop foundom is the most visible fandom right now, Like if you go online, you can see so many K pop fans expressing their feelings

or their thoughts on whatever it's related to K pop. So I study it more as like an observer rather than as an insider. And it can be good, it can be bad. So I've heard you do this in a few different ways. And I think the history of K pop is extremely interesting. Um, How how did k pop become to even be called k pop? How did this whole thing start? K pup is a term that nobody's really sure who coined it. It's just one of

those worst that people suddenly start to use it. One thing that sure is that kapap was not a term that was coined by Koreans um. So. K pop was a term that the Japanese industry had given to Korean music that had more Western influence, that seemed more trendy and seemed very different. Um. And those were the songs that were coming out in the nineties that was more

dance oriented and more youth oriented as well. Um. And then people started to use it as K pop became more popular around the world, and once the term became more widely used, Korean industry, Korean government, and Korean public started to take it up as their own word. Um. And I think the first time Korean public started to really use K pop would be like in the late two thousand. How would you define then, Yeah, it's very tricky. It really depends on how you're studying it. Um. I

do think that is bigger than just music. It's definitely not a genre. I know some people think that kapa is a genre, um, but if you look at K pop, it is a mixture of so many different forms of music, forms and styles of music, So it is bigger than a genre. Is definitely an industry, but it's a culture. I would consider k pop to be a culture, uh that encompasses not only music, but also lifestyle, um, also about fashion, also about uh, you know, uh behavior, So

it is a culture. That's how I would define k pop. How would you say that? The relationship between K pop artists and their fans are different from say, your average American artists and their fans. So one of the things that a lot of people who are not familiar with K pop would notice is the close relationship that K pop fans seem to have with K pop artists. There seemed to be a greater sense of intimacy between K

pop fans and K pop artists. I think it has to do with Korea being a small country, so it is easier for fans to actually see their artists up close or to meet them, um in person. I'm not

saying it's easily easily done, but it's doable. Um. And then of course social media and online uh technology has just made it easier for fans to kind of build this para social relationship with artists, and it has to do with the artists being more visible online because K pop industry has been very active and using online tools to reach out to fans. So it's not just YouTube, it's not just Twitter. There's also a thing called v live, which is a Korean app uh that m artists would

use to directly communicate with their fans. They would like, you know, like randomly send out Twitter message saying, hey, we're going to be on v live from this time to that, you know, on this day, from this time to whatever, and fans would you know, they would log in and they would get to they would have a chance to like talk to the artists or ask questions um or leaf you know, comments on the chat, and

the artists would read it and they would answer. So there is that sense of intimacy that is being built. Although that intimacy is kind of like, you know, it's not like real intimacy, but there is a sense of intimacy that can be built between the artists and the fans. I know you've you've mentioned sort of the role that or some inspirations of things like J pop or or or even motown, and I wonder if you could sort of explain lay that out a little bit for me.

J Pop was a term that was coined in the nineteen eighties or late nineteen eighties, and that's when rock music was extremely popular in the West, so a lot of music that inspired J pop was rock based. Now in Korea, the music that inspired K pop was mostly Black American music because black American music was becoming more

mainstream in the in the nineties. They were the ones that were associated as American music, not Black American music, just American music for Koreans, and those were the songs that would be played a lot in Korea at the clubs or you know um or by the radio stations. So K pop was inspired in terms of the sound,

it was inspired by black music. And that's something that the founder of SM Entertainment is Suman set himself that if J pop was inspired by rock music, k pop is inspired by black music because that was the most popular music in the nineties that Koreans were exposed to. Sam was trying to create artists musicians. It wasn't just

going to be artists who focused on music. If it's going to be focused on music, then it could have been Sam music, right, But he changed it to sm entertainment, which kind of foretells that there was this idea to create artists who can be multitalented, not just in terms of singing and dancing, but also who can like do well in variety shows, who can act, or who can

have a career outside of being an idol. This is really interesting you mentioned this because as you're as you're talking about this, I mean that the K pop system has elements and inspirations from from J pop, from motown, from the US movie studio system from the fifties, and

also just watching a lot of MTV. But then now as you're describing it a lot of US artists, it looks like you're kind of taking cues from how to manage themselves, or how to promote themselves, or how to motivate their fan base so they can get like they can get the kind of support and frankly purchasing power that K pop audiences are giving that their artists. This cycle is really interesting. Yeah, everything's coming back to circle.

I mean, I think I think that's that's That's one of the things that really fascinates me is I think a lot of times Americans in particular assume that if something, some cultural phenomenon is happening outside of the United States and it's necessarily taken from the US, and that we inspired them. I'm not sure if people fully appreciate what you're talking about here, which is that that is coming

back to the United States. There's some of the approaches, if I'm understanding what you're saying, right, Yeah, I think with the American K pop fans, they've just kind of like has accepted accepted it. And I see a lot of similar fan practices between the American k pop fans and Korean kpop fans, like things that were uniquely Korean fan practices. I see it being adopted by American K

pop fans now outside of the K pop world. Like young artists, they're more Internet savvy, they're more social media savvy, so they're using this tool in a way that allows the fans to uh, you know, constantly talk about them or promote them, which we haven't seen with like more

established artists of like the early Adds or the tens. Yeah, I mean, as you're describing the K pop fans, the closest thing I can think of in the U S is maybe Beyonce and the Beehive where where I know, and you know, don't say anything bad about Beyonce on Twitter because you know that they will come for you. But it seems like kop is It seems like it's another level. Yeah. The difference between bee Hive and K pop though, is Beyonce isn't really active on social media,

Like she's not the one. No. I mean she went once in a while, but it would be very private and would be really curated, like it would be really carefully thought out. Um, and yeah, she's just not that visible on social media. She has social media accounts, but she's not using it to communicate with her fans, which is really really different from how K pop artists use

social media. Um. Of course it's mostly promotional, but they use it very actively to create a sense that they're updating their everyday life to their fans, so the fans feel like they're getting something from their artists. They know it's promotional stuff, but because it's constantly updated, they feel like they're getting to see pieces of their lives, everyday lives. So it does kind of make them feel like like

close to the artists that they love. With Beehive, I think it's also because of like how Beyonce hasn't really been like despite all these great works that she's released, she hasn't gotten like the proper recognition from the Grammys and you know, and we know why. And I think the fans are just like you know, guarded, like they want to protect her and make sure that she gets the credit that she deserves. And um, so that's why they, you know, are very protective of her and um are

bad at like when Beyonce gets criticism. They're the ones who like would be at the forefront of like, you know, biting. I guess that. I think I see that with Nicki minaj Is fans and the Taylor Swift. The swift is also can be very protective of the artists. But I think it's also because the and it might not necessarily because be because they're trying to protect the artists. Maybe

in some way of them protecting themselves and the fandom itself. Right, I mean, it wasn't like k pop was a massively popular genre even because people weren't even really saying it so much, even at the beginning of the two thousands. And of course hip hop starts to develop in Korea around this period. So how was the development of k pop and Korean hip hop? How do those two affect

each other and how are they different? Yeah, so although kip hop was not popular or as popular in the States until more recently, k pop has always been popular in Korea, Korean music it wasn't. It just wasn't called k pop until much later. So Korean music, the popular music, has always had a massive peel, was widely popular and was recognized by a lot by the wider Korean public.

With Korean hip hop was interesting in that it's really hard to distinguish like Korean hip hop from pop because, as I said, keep hop and incorporate so many different genres of music, including hip hop. So there would like even like the Hot had rap and hip pop elements in their songs. It might not like sound like a conventional hip hop music, but it had hip hop elements. Uh, and street style dance. So hip hop has always been part of or has been embedded in in kp hop

for a long period of time. But there were like some groups that were kind of like very um I guess, discontent with idle style of music, especially those who grew up in the States and who were well versed in

hip hop music. Uh. They started coming back to Korea in the late nineties, and uh there were some underground hip hop artists, and there were some hip hop artists who were actually more popular, like I'm thinking about like uh Tiger j K and his group Drunken Tiger Um who you know, had a song actually that kind of like this is the idol music and say you don't know what hip hop is, this is how you do hip hop, you know. Uh, so there's actually been here. Yes,

he lived in l A, right right. I think he went to the same high school as Angelina Julie Beverly Hills. I I know, Tim, I but exactly. But but but then there's this company called Wig Entertainment which becomes one of the Big three, and unlike Essen, which had more polished idol music, why she had a more hip hop style music or they created more of a hip hop

style music for their artists. So the team that first came out is called Jinushan, which is a duo and the members are both from then one is from Guam and the other I think it's from the mainland. I can't remember where, but they're both Korean American and they were popular, but it was It wasn't until a group that's called One Time that came out that really established y G as a hip hop music label. So I want, I want to get into sort of the heavy stuff. Um do you what did you think when you first

I saw the phrase Tajanio? Yeah, yeah, where you? Where were you? Graduate student? I was a graduate student, so that's why I wasn't like paying as much attention as I should be because I was busy with my course works and stuff like that. But it was just interesting because I thought it was going to be a temporary thing,

but then it lasted for longer than I thought it would. Uh. And then after after it kind of like blew up, I started like reading about it and like, you know, because it was just a really bizarre and interesting case to study as a pop culture scholar. Uh, So I looked into it. It wasn't really about fandom, or it wasn't really about key pop as UH. People who don't really know about Tajano or Tableau would think it was

much bigger than that. And Yeah, when I first heard about Tajan you know like and their claims that Tableau has been lying about his academic credentials, first I'm like, Okay, they're asking good questions, like, you know, because because not because I wasn't. I was. I I thought Tableau was lying. So when Tajen you know was raising questions about Tableau, I'm like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Maybe there's some truth to it. But then the more I read it, I'm like, oh,

it's just too bizarre. This can't be. And then later when I did research or read more about it, I realized that there's really no UH. It was hard to really like a set their claims, but it was just interesting how the claims that were made by this UH community was gaining traction and was having a ripple effect on the wider Korean public. That's what got me interested. UM, So I started to look into why this claim that was made by this one internet troll would have would

would have an impact on so many people. There's so much in here. This Oh my gosh, that's so much in here. One thing I want to ask you, you were talking about sort of the people who the people who were kind of attacking, right, So I think now, if anything even remotely like any kind of rumors or attacks on tallow or on epic Ai were to happen, the fans, I think would immediately come to the defense and say, no, no, stop it, let's shut this down. Didn't happen back then? What what what was it that?

I mean, as we're talking about k pop, you cannot have a conversation about k pop without fandom, right, and with other fans, bts, army, all these things. Right, Where were the fans when Tableau had all these rumors being spread about him. Yeah. So it's like said Tableau or Epicchai fandom wasn't like. Their popularity wasn't based on fandom. It was based on the general public's interests in their music, particularly through Tableau's appearances and a lot of Korean TV shows.

So they were popular by the wider general public, not by really passionate and engaged fandom and um, so they didn't have something like an army they did have fans, and um I think there was a community that was created to defend Tableau. I think it was called Tableau is Telling the Truth or something like that, but it wasn't. It was nowhere comparable in terms of size to Touch and you know, I think it was like thirty thousand

versus two hundred thousand, um so. And these people did try their best to defend Tableau, but it was just not as big as Tajanio or they weren't getting as much coverage or interest as Tataneo and Tangen say so. And it also has to do with how Epichai became popular, not through fandom, not through active fandom, but through the wider public who have more fickle taste. They don't have loyalty to particular artists, like the difference between acquaintances and friends. Exactly.

They had a bunch of acquaintmans right exactly who like their music. Whatever music that came out at the moment, they liked it, but not but it doesn't mean that they would like defend the artists. I mean they had fans, they had passionate fans, but in terms of size, in terms of uh yeah, in terms of size they weren't massive at all. So that's why they didn't have this big fandom defending Tableau or defending at the Chai when

this thing occurred. And I think I've read an article that said the Tableau even told his close friends, who were also like singers and entertainers, to stop defending him because they were getting a lot of hate. So I think that's another reason why there was more of a silence by his supporters. That's like, you know, entertainers and his friends with fans. Yeah, No, the fans did exist. It's just that they weren't as powerful or they weren't

as visible as the detractors. Unfortunately, it sounds like some of them are all most scared. Yeah. So when when I was talking to tell what he was saying that listen, uh, when Teller got married, apparently a good amount of his fans were actually upset, I think for various reasons. And and tell Us thinks that a lot of fans actually left at that point, and that may have been when why there wasn't so many so much support. I wonder

what you think about. Yeah, but the thing is like, I don't know how big of a female fans that he had. I'm going to be honest with you, he wasn't known as like this heartthrob or like, you know, the idol, the typical male idol who has massive female fans because they're kind of treating this artist as their pseudo lover. I don't think Tableau was kind of like that. He was because he had this persona being this very laid back, young chill uh kind of like a jokester um.

So yeah, he did have fans, I'm not saying that he didn't, but he just didn't have that persona being like like he's my dream like guy, you know. So

it's a bit different. But I can see like how some of his female fans could have left because they were unhappy that he got married to one of the most popular actress in Korean entertainment, or it could have been his male fans who you know, started to like project this idea that table was just like them, but then realized that he is actually, like, you know, different from them. You know, he might come across as this very like, you know, laid back, like I'm just one

of you guys. I'm just like, you know, one of you likes to joke and and kick back. But then like he ends up marrying this uh, this actress and having not everybody can achieve, right, So I don't know, Like again, like I don't have the numbers of like you know, how many fans he had or what the my just my perception is he Epichai like they did have massive following, but it was mostly because of music, not because of his persona, because of who he is

as a celebrity or as a star. But I could be wrong, because you know, Tableau would have a better sense of his fandom and his um and and his fans more than Yeah. So and so I'm curious about how you're an educator. We're both in the same kind of game here. How would you teach about Tao in a classroom? That's a really good question, because how do

you teach that? It's really difficult because if you think about it for so long, Like I teach media studies, and one of the goals is media literacy, which is all about asking questions instead of like you know, accepting the best age at based value, ask the right questions, be critical, and if you think about it, that's what people are touching. You are doing instead of accepting what

is given to them. No, seriously, what instead of accepting what is given to them through like you know, through entertainment shows, they're actually raising I'm not saying that they're good questions, but they are questioning and thinking that they're asking rational questions. So they have the tools of what you know, we've been teaching about, you know, for media literacy. They have the media literacy skills, which is precisely what

antivactors are doing exactly. I don't hold on can we say that they have media literacy skills or that they're using the tools the tools. No, they're using these tools. They're using them a very destructive direct, right exactly. But they're using the tools that we've been asking people to like use for a long time, right, not in a way that we wanted them to, but they are using the tool in a way that we've taught them or

we've been asking them to. So no, I'm not saying it's our fault, but it's just like turned into a really weird situation and I'm struggling with it too. Like, you know, now people are asking questions which we have been asking them to do for so long, right, ask questions. Don't take the message of face value. Always question, be you know, be skeptical. Those are the things that we asked people, um, like, you know, because I teach like pop culture instead of like, you know, accepting the message

just given to you. Think about what these messages, how they're constructed. And that's what a lot of people are doing right now, but in a twisted in a in a very different way. Yeah. I don't have the answer. Unfortunately. If I knew, like I my life would be much easier. But but I just feel like we're at that place right now. We've got we've got a fun few semesters

ahead of us. I think that's what we do. Authentic is a production of Vice Audio and I Heart Podcast Network, produced and reported by Stephanie Karayuki, Minji Cool, Hate Osborne, and myself with Janet Lee, Stephanie Brown, and Sam Egan. Sound design and original music composition by Kyle Murdoch, with the DIG and support from Natasha Jacobs. Our Supervising producer is Janet Lee, editing from Lacy Roberts, fact checking by

Minji Ku and Nikolepasuka. Our Executive producer and VP Advice Audio is Kate Osborne from I Heart Podcast Network executive producers Nikki E. Tor and Lindsay Hoffmann. I'm dexter, Thomas