This weird episode doesn’t have a title. Isn’t that weird🫠? With Dan Moyer

Welcome authentic with Bruce. I'm so sorry. It's okay,. Welcome out to the cold air. Bruce Alexander. I am your host. Bruce Alexander. Am I? Get a little weird in the Authentic on air studio today. At least I hope so, because animator and installation artist and Moyer is here today. I'm looking forward to getting a peek into the mind of an artist after today's reflection. Creativity and authenticity are natural bedfellows, as far as I'm concerned.

Creativity boils down to being able to find ways to solve problems. Authenticity boils down to honoring yourself through whatever problems you face. What connection do you have with creativity? Do you apply out-of-the-box thinking to social situations and your interactions with the world?

I wouldn't have always considered applying creative solutions to the fitting in problem, but as far as but as I have accepted the uniqueness of my authentic self, I have learned that I have a special ability to look at things from an uncommon perspective. Why wouldn't I leverage my unique skills to make my own life better? It's funny that I took out of the box thinking for me to arrive at stop pretending to improve the depth and quality of my connections. But sometimes it's just like that.

I'm curious if you have had to get creative to improve any of your interpersonal connections and what have you had to do to make your life work for you?

Hop on to Authentic at Indie management on Instagram threads, Facebook or LinkedIn and comment on the episode 23 Reflection Posts with your experience or make a post of your own using the hashtag Authentic Reflections and tag Authentic Identity Management to find out if I can apply my out of the box thinking to help you start being more authentic in your relationships. Comment Connection. And I will take the lead if you love this piece.

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I am dedicated to the work of this mission long term, but I would love your help and more quickly making the world a safer place to show up as yourself. I was initially introduced to Dan through the homeschool group that I was initially introduced to Dan through the homeschool group created by my guest from episode 21. Lori And while I don't remember seeing him at the group of him, but I knew that we shared at least some common ground when it came to parenting our children.

Guided by Love. First we became Facebook friends and eventually I remember attending one of his children's birthday parties IRL. This was early in my journey of self-acceptance. I had started to embrace my authentic self, but only around the people who had already seen and accepted that unfiltered version of myself. And I'd only showed that when I was too exhausted from shift work to deal with any sort of pretense.

Dan existed at the time as a free spirit if I had ever seen one, and so did the large majority of people in attendance at this party. I always tried to tough out anything that I could to provide my kids a good time, but this was hard. I remember a lot of tie dye and like hair from his chest and the smell of essential oils. I also noticed the lack of brown skin. Every wall I had shot up and I shut down. I'm still not to the place where I am comfortable being everywhere.

I had shot up and I shot down. I am still not to a place where I am completely comfortable enough with myself to be open immediately to every experience. But I will sit in my discomfort until I put myself out there. Back then, I was nowhere close to that point in a space full of people who had no desire to conform to what society told them to be or to hide their weird. I felt so out of place. Magnify that by being the only black man in a space and you have the recipe for not having a good time.

I am embarrassed at all the snap judgments I made that day, and I shudder to think how small I let others uniqueness make me feel in the comparison. I love that party. What felt like an eternity later, having made almost no meaningful connections. But I remained Facebook friends with Dan, despite what had been shockingly disparate social circles in the ensuing years. I loved watching Dan on social media because he was like an open book.

It felt like he almost made a point to put out the ugliest parts of his life online. For me to experience them with him. He was so open about the pain he was feeling throughout his divorce, and I cried for him when he became unemployed and was floundering like so many others were in secret. He shared it. He would occasionally post on days that he was feeling low, but he needed encouragement and he wouldn't have a big book about it either.

He would lay out how he was hurting and what kind of support he needed. Do you know how brave that is? I did, and I reached out on one of one of his post and told him how much his honesty impacted me. We had probably the most vulnerable, magical exchange of emotions I had ever had as an adult. At that point, that conversation laid a heavy part of the foundation that my acceptance of self sits and sits on today.

I want to thank Dan for unknowingly leading the way for me for being a guiding light, a vulnerability that eventually guided me to the safe harbor. That is authenticity. Thank you, Dan, for being your authentic self, and thank you for being here on my show today. Thanks for inviting me in for such a lovely, warm intro. I take that as my are my real honest goals, like just knock people out with the intro so then I don't have to do a very good job the rest of the show. That's awesome. I like that.

I also wanted to say it is an honor to be mentioned in the same sentence as Lori and she is one of my heroes and I would follow her to battle. Same thing. And so you should check out her episode when it drops. I will be probably in October. But she was absolutely amazing. Everything that we know about her is even better. Hearing her talk about it, like for an hour and a half. Yes, absolutely. Love the plan to listen to that twice.

So can we start by you telling the audience who you are in your own words, how you spend the majority of your time, and why you think I invited you on the show today? I'm Dan and Dan Moyer, and I'm working with visual artists in the movie industry and I also participate in construction of installation art with Factory Obscura. I work on mix tape. Most of a single dad. And that means that almost all of my time is spent working or doing housework.

I pack in a 40 hour week and four days and then I have my kids three days a week and I never stop running. And I wasn't really sure why you invited me here today, but now I have I have a feeling based on your intro that we're going to be talking about emotional vulnerability, and I'm there for that. That's a good conversation to have. Absolutely. I'm glad you're there for that because like I said, you really did help me get where I am today.

And I would love to talk to you about kind of how you got where you were, where you're able to so openly and honestly talk about those things. But first, can you define authenticity in your own way? Authenticity? That's a I guess that's a squirrely one because like, some things can be authentic in some ways and completely artifice or convoluted in other ways. But for me, the kind of authenticity that I reach for most of the time is to combine my passion with genuine expressions of my feelings.

So as a man raised in America, I think many of us were conditioned to hide our feelings and sort of ourselves boxed in. And I went through some tough times 2020 and got into therapy and started journaling. And both those things really opened my eyes to the for me that the idea that reality almost exclusively happens in your mind. There is, of course, the material world, but like all of your experiences of it are temporary through your body, which is made out of feelings.

So that's pretty important to me. And then when it comes to art, passion projects, like when people express themselves in a way that is unique to them, that's a kind of authenticity that I just absolutely love. It's like brain candy. I love that. Like you're the first true artist I can say that we've had on the show, like we've had some people who dabble in some creative people, but like doing it as a lifestyle, you know?

I know that you do your other job to pay the bills, but you know, you've been doing like Factory Square for like eight years, right? Yeah, it's the work I do with Factory has never been like, full time work. I've always had a day job, but I absolutely love them. The first time I experienced one of their installations was maybe 2017 or 2018. I don't know. They had this exhibit open called Shift and my my two kids, I think it was just one at that point that we brought. You absolutely loved it.

And I became really obsessed with the idea of helping the group that made that make more. And so I showed up to an artist mixer they threw after the fact, and I practically begged them to let me help. I was like, I will be your janitor. I do not care what work I do. I just want to help you guys do this. And then they could smell on me like actual art and craft skills. So I very quickly was sort of dissolved, not dissolved, but, you know, sort of dispersed into the group to help and make things.

That's awesome. So can you tell me a couple of ways that people would describe you both correctly and incorrectly? I don't know how people would describe me incorrectly. like, well, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Let's start with the incorrect stuff because I like the idea that I could be some sort of, like a spectral nightmare person to somebody out there. And actually, I'm just sort of a floppy hippie man.

but yeah, I mean, like, I'm sure there are people out there who are like, Yeah, that's kind of a scrub. I don't really trust them. I can see that. I can see it. I don't know. I don't know, you know, the dark ways in which people describe me that may or. May not know. Like, you know, I, I could see some people thinking that maybe you're quiet or that you're not very social. But as far as I've experienced, that's not true.

You just maybe are a little slow to warm up, but you really you've been a pretty great conversationalist as far as I've experienced. I do love to schmooze. yeah, but that activation energy is tough for me. Yeah, Like you put me in a group setting and there's a bunch of people I don't know, and I'm going to sit there and sort of stare blankly until somebody approaches me. But once you open me up and I'm just chatting. I'm pretty similar. I'm pretty similar.

I've had to I've had to push through for a couple of different situations and learn how to be a networker a little bit. And so that's kind of given me a little bit of insight into not wasting so much time not interacting because I want like in my resting state, I want to be interacting, but I let my thoughts get in the way sometimes and sort of push through that and just like let my body carry me to the place where I need to be and then my mind has to catch up quickly.

So that's been my my hack for myself. That's interesting. Yeah. So what are some of the ways that people like how would you describe you accurately? well, I guess I am. I don't know the word for it, but emotionally expressive. You can tell when I'm having a bad day. The I'm walking around with the car to the ground on my face or, you know, I'm having a great time, I'm bouncing around and laughing.

So I'm pretty expressive person and creative and maybe sort of intentionally weird to a fault, I guess. Like I'm always reaching for what the weird thing is. Like what's the new experience? Like, what's what's the new story that I can hear or something like that. And I'm not trying to do the same thing over and over, although I do have, you know, addicts and like TV shows that are returning to you and whatnot. So let's talk about that intentionally weird thing like what is that like?

Because I remember for so such a large part of my life, I wanted so badly to fit in so that I would, you know, I would make sure I wasn't intentionally weird or that, you know, I didn't let my quirks show through the ones that, you know, that wasn't intentional. It was just like it was a weird thing I had. I wanted to hide and mask all that stuff. So for me, it's hard to really wrap my mind around wanting to intentionally express that weirdness.

I think there are a few factors there, and I will say that I totally honor the desire to mask and fit in, and that is especially when you're growing up, if you're in school or if you're around a bunch of other kids, that's survival, like fitting in, doing the right thing at the right time, being correct, whatever, like wearing the right clothes, looking the right way. That's stuff that's like any survival stuff when you are a kid or a team and I definitely wrestled with a lot of that.

And I think for me, like I'm definitely on the spectrum. I'm a bit on the autistic side. And so there are some ways that I have never been able to fit in some kind of regular person performance. I just don't have the capacity for. and so I think somewhere in there I kind of set that aside, the desire to fit in, even though that is a big component of my daily anxiety, it's like, am I performing normal enough for the people I love, the people I like to want to be around me.

Yeah. but yeah, I had sort of set that aside and then I was like, What are ways of being that? I'm like, What are ways of being that I feel are right? and I come from a long line of people who chased their moral compasses to a fault. and so definitely trying to reconfigure my lifestyle and, like, figure out new ways to be that are, like, better for not only me, but the people around me. It's always been kind of an obsession, I guess. So you say Chase. Chase Their moral compass is to a fault.

Does that mean you're saying that you've had people who are so honest, are so obsessed with the truth, They're like concerned with what's right, that they've let it kind of destroy things in their lives? Yeah, I mean, I think it can be damaging if, you know, sort of temper what your moral compass is telling you with like what I guess your social compass is telling you, you know, like, I don't know. One thing I think about a lot, especially as an artist, is critique is a big deal.

As an artist, you make art and then you get feedback and sometimes that feedback is really hard to absorb and it's even harder to absorb if someone comes to you and gives you feedback you didn't ask for and it's all negative. Yeah, in fact, that kind of feedback, while it may or may not be true, feedback is not actually helpful. So it's like there's this thing that is true, but maybe not the kind, you know.

So I guess like there's, you know, there's a lot of different ways to be morally right or wrong for everybody. We've all got our own little amorphous little shape that is our morality. But I don't know, I feel like there's I'm just telling the truth. And then am I being kind and how do you marry those two things and like also how to how do you access your moral compass through like, I mean, we are like our consciousness is sort of a byproduct of what our bodies are doing at any given time.

So like your idea of what's right and wrong can be heavily affected by whether or not you've eaten a cupcake recently or you know what I mean, right? Yeah, absolutely. So like, I think that it's I don't know, because morality exists. Like it's an intellectual concept. It's not actually tied directly to our survival or our sense of comfort or whatever. But the people my family I was raised in is very like hyper focused on that.

And sometimes there's a side of like self care and stuff and you can't really care for the world or care for the people around you not caring for yourself, right? So that makes sense. I feel like I kind of went. On a trip. No, that was like I actually loved everything that you said there. And a couple episodes ago, I was talking about how I tended to fall into that camp of giving the unnecessary advice. You know, even sometimes I could see it as very helpful.

But until I learned that what I think is helpful or what would be helpful to me is not helpful to everyone. It's not like helping is not a one size fits all thing, you know, figuring out what is helpful to the person that you want to help is the number one priority. If you want to be helpful, would it be helpful to you if I gave you some feedback? Not at this moment. Okay, then you need to keep that feedback for yourself and alternative.

Like, you know, I told Marilyn, any father who was on the show, like the things I try to try to work on filtering all those thoughts through is is a timely is it kind of like being respectful like even the you know if I'm giving feedback to your, you know, your art installation, I could not like it, but me telling you I don't like it is not helpful. It doesn't help. And if so, if it fails any one of those three tests, I think that maybe you don't share it right until you can.

Until you can put it in words at that can be helpful. Until you can at least formulate a thought that does have some sort of, you know, like, you know, the color palette for me, I felt like was was too, too muddled. I felt like, you know, the vision was lost in whatever give some sort of feedback that might actually help you improve or just keep it to yourself.

And that's that's something that has been a development and process and and as my wife has suffered from it the most because, you know, I'm like, Hey, you didn't do this thing. And that's that's not that's not good feedback, right? It's it's crappy. So I've tried to, you know, work on that a lot. And I will say, though, like just I don't want to jump back too far. But he said, I don't like it and it's not good feedback.

And I will say like, if you had that response to some piece of art I made, I feel like that would be kind of an opening to investigate. And also it would be helpful, maybe not for me to improve the art, but it would be helpful for me to know about you as my friend. And that's to me, that's valuable information. Well, I think I think there's like a number of things that I can maybe guess about that. I think it can be a good starting point, but I think in itself it's not good feedback.

That you know, needs rendering. Yeah, it's like, I don't like it because of this thing that or it makes me feel this or, you know, it looks too much like, you know, Rembrandt or like, whatever, you know, whatever. So but I definitely think that it's a good starting point. I just think that feedback should be able to give more than that, or you should be in a be in a place that a conversation about something before you say, I don't like it so well, why don't you like it?

I just don't that's not that's not good enough to me. I don't know. I think my general approach about feedback nowadays is that well, with with art in the professional arena, I only get feedback if my fellow artists ask for it. And I am pretty tied to being a good tradesperson as an artist. So what I want to do is demo good art and if people are picking that up, they're going to ask me for feedback.

it's pretty rare that I'm going to offer feedback to people, even people who are very close to me, unless, unless it's about my physical safety or comfort, you know, like if someone's doing me harm, they're going to get some feedback. Yeah, not that at least, you know, if I'm awake.

If I awake and aware of it. So. So do you think maybe like you talked about, you know, being somewhere on the spectrum, do you think that that there might be some tie in to generational like being on the spectrum and that tie in to that strong sense of morality? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. It runs in the family. And I think that specifically with the autistic spectrum nowadays, it's much more socially acceptable to be on the spectrum.

And so I talk to previous generations in my family about that very concept and they're like, No, no, I just really like math puzzles. Like, okay, of course, you just really like math puzzles. That's totally not. Anyways. Yeah, you give it a say. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I also think that because it's the spectrum, it's really hard to actually measure. so I don't know. But yeah, autism is the thing. I think about it a lot.

I've been thinking it's been coming up, you know, in my realm of influence more and more and because like I'm very clearly diagnosed as ADHD, I know that for a fact. But I'm often asked, like if I'm not on the autism spectrum, is should ADHD be on the autism spectrum?

Should there be like a part where ADHD like kind of factors in because that lack of a filter part and you know that missing out on social cues, things like I catch a lot of but a lot of them I'm like, I don't get what you want from me here. And that and that feels very, very similar to autism. Whenever I'm caught in that loop of like there's something going on that I'm totally missing and I want to do it, I promise. I like, I see what everybody is feeling. I know that people are upset.

I'm just not and not understanding what is missing from this situation. Yeah. Yeah, I, I feel that yeah, I definitely I haven't gotten a formal diagnosis, but I, I bounced back and forth between the realms of spectrum disorder and also ADHD as well. And I do, I do feel like those things are connected.

I think those are like developmental things and like, I don't know, maybe ADHD has some like, I don't know, I'm just speculating because I'm an artist and I don't really know this stuff, But I feel like ADHD in some cases can be sort of a conditioned response to the amount of structure we experience when we're young. Like when you're a kid, there's all kinds of invisible rules.

And so I think ADHD and like hyper vigilance can sometimes be very connected and like the whole idea of like masking, right? We already brought that up. That's like, that's definitely like in order to successfully mask, you have to just like, very frequently check yourself, right? Like, you have to constantly be like following the rules that are paying attention to other people in the room. And yeah, that's that's varying levels of survival if you're on the spectrum.

Yeah. Especially like depending on your circumstances. You know. I absolutely agree. And you know what I but I want to make sure that clarify is that there's not anything inherently wrong with any of that.

And that's something that I think is coming into like coming into acceptance in this case, is that you may have trouble understanding those social cues and that's okay, as opposed to before, you know, last ten, 15 years not being able to, you know, behave normally in the social spectrum meant that you were weird and being weird was bad and, you know, and that those things are starting to evolve and change and being weird is like it's different and different isn't that different? Is different.

So maybe you're not attracting those kinds of people for conversation or to hang out with, but you're going to have to deal with them, you know, at some point in your career or in social life or your kid's soccer team or whatever, at some point you got to learn to deal with those people that need to understand that they're not bad people or they're not wrong. They're just different. You know, they just they just work a little bit differently. So take take time for sure. For sure.

I also think, like neurodiversity is important. It takes all kinds of people to make world do stuff, make the gears turn whatever. I don't know. I think that maybe goes back to what you're asking earlier about. I like to be weird and like, I mean, for me, I like to speculate. I love sci fi, I love anything. I love to speculate about what the future is going to be like.

And like the only way we get to the future with weird inventions and like, bizarre, you know, sci fi stuff happening is with a bunch of weirdos inventing stuff like you need people to like think new thoughts and come up with new ideas. I Yeah, really good point. So can you. I don't know. It's this is a different question now because, you know, I want to ask if you've ever had trouble being authentic, but your dedication to being weird kind of does speak of being authentic.

But did you ever kind of deal with the the opposite end of that. Like trying to maintain some level of authenticity? Well, normalcy, some of quote unquote normalcy. yeah, I messed that up all the time. Like, yeah, so many so many situations in my life where I've been like looking back and like, gosh, I wish I had read the rules all the way back to when I got married. Like, there were just so many mistakes I made socially during that.

And then, like everything in my professional life sense, like I'm like, Gosh, this is like human 101 And I just missed it. I missed whatever thing I was supposed to do, I don't know. And I experienced that in parenting circles. Both my kids are at home schooling, sort of. They're on square on schoolers, me and my ex, my baby mama, if you will.

And in even in the crowds that we run with the parenting groups, I definitely I feel like I have to step lightly socially and just sort of hope that I'm not offending anybody while also sort of keeping my persona intact. So for like, you know, I'm a home schooler as well. Like, we've got four kids, we homeschool, we stick to a pretty, pretty structured curriculum. Can you explain to people who don't know what unschooling is? I will, but only up to a certain point because I feel like.

Loose stuff gets too. Many details. The audience comes. Unschooling is at its core. It's very unstructured, at least from the adult side. It's about sort of allowing kids to have interests and wants you as the parents or the caretaker have sort of identified their interests. The goal then is to provide them with as many resources as possible to let them pursue that stuff. And a lot of it relies on some ideas that I've had trouble with.

Ideas like reading, like learning to read will happen when it happens. It'll be super right when it does, or learning math or like stuff that for me, when I went to school growing up, it was like, you learn this thing at this time. They tell you to learn it in first grade or whatever you do, learn it or else.

So I don't know, one of my one of my kids was a late reader, but then, like once they started excuse me, once they started reading, it was like it was like a transformation that took place over the course of like a week. And it was because of Minecraft. And I'm like, yeah, my my oldest went from not illiterate, but definitely not willing to read much to all of a sudden just consuming massive amounts of text.

So yeah, I'm not going to go much further into detail, but I will say that unschooling has been a really cool journey and a lot of that is about having faith and you're developing children. And you know, there are definitely tenets of that that are implicit in how we teach our kids as well. And like that. It was fine to me how hard it was for me to accept that it will happen when it happens thing.

However, my son was learning to read, you know, it was like, Well, our oldest, she learned to read by like three and a half. Four. She was reading super fast and she took off. She's still, you know, a voracious reader. But he was like, it was he was almost eight news still struggling. And we're, you know, trying things and we're you know, I'm starting to freak out like, you know, people are going to, you know, think that we're not teaching our you know, we're not homeschooling.

Our children were just like, you know, being lazy or whatever. And I started to care really heavily what people thought. And I thought that was really funny because I strongly associate my schooling, you know, in public school as having been like the basis for a lot of my shame and guilt. And then I, like, immediately revert back to it whenever I'm trying to teach my child something different.

And it was I thought it was really interesting to have to like, step back from that and say, like, you're doing the same thing. You know, just because you're homeschooling doesn't mean that you're going to automatically not have those things if you don't put them in place yourself. Yeah, it's it's tough to let go and that yeah, that masking follows everywhere I think.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember like feeling very scrutinized when my office was learning to read because it was later and my extended, my side of the family was like what's going on? And it's got going on there. But it eventually just happened. Yeah, that's, that's been my experience at every turn. Like the milestones maybe don't happen at the time that they're like, quote unquote, it was to happen, but maybe they're actually happening when they're really supposed. Right.

And one of your children, I think your oldest is like coding on a regular basis, right? Yeah, My oldest has a lot of different, like variations of like programing, you know, just apps and stuff. That's me says, you know, we may be doing it different, but something's going right because that's not something you just do without some foundation of like, good learn skills. So, I mean, you're doing something right?

Well, I just try to provide access when I can be mindful now of what my kid's interests are. I will say that my youngest learned, like started doing math for fun at a very early age. That was a little disturbing. It's like really fun. Like, you have a good time. We put you up to this. My wife does Sudoku and I'm still like. Do I just stop? I've never been a math person. I love words, though. I used to read the dictionary for entertainment, so.

That's. Cool that I mean, but in comparison to doing math for fun, I think it, you know, on the scales they like weigh pretty evenly. Yeah absolutely That's. Just different kinds of nerd. So talking about that normalcy like did it ever weigh on you heavily that you that you weren't fitting in? Like, was it hard for you to, like, make that correlation between who you really were and the fact that you weren't fitting in that ever make you feel like depressed or sad?

Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, like, I think for me, a lot of my identity, this is probably unhealthy. But throughout my life, a lot of my identity has been like very reliant on the people. I have relationships with my friends and loved ones and so part of growing up for me even now developing, is trying to figure out how to retain my sense of self when I get very enmeshed in my relationships with other people.

So sometimes I have no clear picture of what authentic is for me because I'm lost in the codependent sauce. so that's been like a lifelong thing for me. I mean, like, I hope you understand that this show is not about being healthy all the time. It's about, yeah, it's about being. I am not. Know, I think it's really important to tell stories about people who are in the in the midst of that struggle.

Like, it's not easy, but I think it's important for people to hear I'm not alone like other people struggle with this thing. It's not unusual to not be able to find myself like, you know, I was listening to the podcast and I heard somebody else talking about that. They felt lost because they were not in a relationship. That's that's okay.

Like, I think that, you know, even a lot of people have found the experience of just talking about stuff that's painful on the show as kind of restorative and healing because somebody else is not sharing that burden with you. Like like I'm here to listen and accept and give you a platform to tell your story because I think it will help somebody else. But I also think it'll help, you know, that that's really what the whole point of the show is.

So you don't have to hide anything that you don't want it. Okay, well, let me just bust out some really dramatic. So let's get into it. Let's dive into the worst of your life. Well, like, actually, let's let's think of what was a bad day, like back whenever you were still trying to figure out how to show up on a day to day on a day to day basis. I don't know. I will say that abuse of caffeine has played a pretty critical role in my life. Not showing up authentic.

Yeah, I think living as a person, as an adult who has to work a 40 hour a week job like is a lot of work for me of correctness and normalcy, like show up and drink coffee and be productive for certain hours and email at the right time or like speak to people in a certain way or whatever. So I would say a lot of my life in the workplace has been about keeping my personality pretty muted.

I'm currently in a place where I'm surrounded by other artists and I can be a little bit more free, but I still feel like, I don't know. I think that being your authentic self is not necessarily something you can be all of at once. I do a lot of journaling for my own mental health and reading through my journal. If you I am being authentic. When I write my journal, I write down all my my gnarliest feelings going there, right? All the, all the darkness that I have to wrestle with.

I'm having a hard time, my or sadness about after doomscrolling or whatever. But like, if you were to read that journal, you might think this guy is super unhinged and that is authentic. So yeah, but like that, yeah, okay. It's authentic, but it's not all of it's just the stuff I need to get out in my journal and I don't know when I'm around my kids and where we're playing or whatever, like parts of me that I don't like. But, you know, I'm not. We talked about this earlier.

You don't love first thing on your show, and I don't love cursing around my kids. So, like, there's a part of me that, like, you know, wants to swear a lot. Like, maybe, maybe I'm being authentic when I, you know, let that part of me chill. There's still other parts of me that are still me. So I don't know.

I'm a firm believer in that concept of having, like a like we have different parts, us components that we use when we're in different situations, you know, like there's the work, you know, there's the family, you, there's maybe there's the church. You or like whatever different places you go that are your places that you're in.

Like there's, it's like there's a committee in your head and like, different members of that board will come forward and sort of fill the role of, you know, while you're in that place. I think I think that's an interesting way to face it. I think that whenever I was in my unhealthiest place, that was how my mind was. I don't think that there like, I'm very strong in the conviction that not all of you is for everyone.

So I think that there is definitely parts that like parts of me that only my wife will ever see, parts of me that are specifically, you know, kind of reserved for my children. I'm pretty a pretty much an open book. But I think that the the key for me has been figuring out that I don't need to change who I am or the situation, but I need to let the situation shape me. So like I feel like being shaped and changing for are two different things.

Like, you know, it kind of comes down to semantics, but the perspective shift is really important for me in thinking like, I'm not going to be somebody that I'm not for this situation. I'm going to be myself to the degree that the situation allows me to be comfortably. And that was a powerful shift for me whenever I stopped trying to be what the situation called for and just started being myself and a degree that the situation best help. I definitely agree with that sentiment.

I feel like the times in my life where I have tried to force my personality into a shape that seemed like the right shade of aid. Mental health consequences after the fact. I've been depressed or sad or angry and like, why am I like this? Like, why am I feeling this way? And then in retrospect, it's obvious that, well, I was kind of abusing me by, you know, forcing my personality to do a thing that it wasn't really there to do. Yeah. but yeah, and I have to be sleep well. You like water?

Like water for yourself. It's in the shape of the situation. Instead of forcing yourself into a mold to put those concepts out. But you don't have to think about that. Well, I think. I think that you're close. I think for sure you're working there. So you said, you know, in being your authentic self or like earlier on when you came in, you said, I may not be a good guest on the show today because I'm going through a breakup like I love that about you.

You're not going to let me think like it would be easy for you to come in here and for me to feel like you're not really interested on doing this show because you're like, down or you're like, you know, you've kind of pulled back from our conversation. And that became, you know, that was out of the window immediately because you let me know that you're going through something right now. And I told you think that's totally fine. It's important to to talk about the ugly stuff, too.

And like, I just really appreciate and would encourage more people to, like, just say what they're thinking versus, you know, trying to, you know, what I always call putting on a brave face because it always with me, I thought I was much better at hiding it than I really was. So I thought I was, you know, like, I'm putting on a brave face and nobody has any idea that I'm struggling.

But I was struggling and people knew and they took it as me being like fake, you know, It was, you know, I wasn't trying to be fake. I was trying to be a better version of myself for them. But it probably would have been a lot better served it, you know, a lot better served to just say, Hey, I'm going through something right now.

I'm sorry if I'm not, you know, the most interesting person or I don't want to have a conversation with you like I'm mentally exhausted, I'm emotionally tired out whatever is going on, and then then have the opportunity to say either to be a friend and support me or to, you know, say, okay, like, I'll leave you alone for a while so you can, you know, you can get back into a better space. Our our selves, our spirit, personality, whatever we are. That package is kind of like a balloon.

And sometimes it's filled with more pressure and sometimes less. But for me, the experience of trying to like, hide, I am. I had the amount of pressure in my building. In a social situation, it's like squeezing a balloon and you squeeze it and then a huge bubble like left out between your fingers or like next year or whatever.

And because that pressure doesn't really go away and the times that trying to mask that cover up of that, to try to perform like happy, normal, friendly dance when I'm not actually there, like it doesn't tend to go well for me. I've known people with serious acting chops who can do that. They can put on that smile. And I was around the party and I can only assume when they get home they break something. But I mean. I would think so. Yeah. For me like I that's not a skills that I have refined.

So I really like what you said. I think that that is something I, I'd never I, I think it gives a perfect visual for that trying to I don't know try and trying to hide something that is it's not really horrible you know it's you can you can cover it up. You can try to blend blended in with other things. But like really it's a pressure. And then when you push down on one spot, it's going to pop up somewhere else. And so, you know, it's kind of like whack a mole, like, you know.

It's like the whack a mole analogy. You knock it down and that pops up somewhere else. So that's that's very relevant to like hiding it too, because it really is just like you get mad and hit them. Hitting them with a hammer over. Don't really get out of here. No, no, not now. No. And it just is going to keep popping up in the way. So, you know, I know that in Whac-A-Mole, if you don't, it it doesn't just stay there.

But, you know, and then this theoretical whack a mole, wouldn't it be easier to just, you know, take that mole that's popped up and give it a hug and, you know, let it walk around with you and say, hey, guys, here's one more. This is what I'm dealing with right now. So yeah. Or even just letting it stay there. Yeah. As it does go away and it changes into a different mole, I don't want, I don't want all these moles and I got to go to the doctor and my moles like that, you know.

And then it's cancer. I mean. So as an artist, do you feel like creating art gives you a unique opportunity to embrace your authentic self? Sometimes. Sometimes. Okay. So I think about this a lot because I've been a production artist, an animator for about ten years, and almost all of that time has been spent making art that I wouldn't have chose to chose to make for people I would not have chosen to work for.

And I think that part of being narrative of capitalism and rugged individualism that is prevalent in America is that our self expression is can. And it is the most important thing, this individualistic sort of thing where people express themselves. Yeah, it's art, but making it your trade is really not about that. It's about crafting something that communicates a specific thing as successfully as possible, so as many people as possible.

And so when I'm working on a personal project, like right now, I'm making an album of some electronic music that really is me expressing my authentic self, my love of melody and weird rhythms and stuff. That's that's really me. Yeah, that hasn't been my career.

And I think that it's probably pretty important for artists who are starting out in their career to understand that it is it is a trade more than it is like a fine art and when you know you're trying to pay your bills, but it's really not not super different from building a house or doing plumbing or whatever. It's it's a specific set of like sort of hard skills that people get. And then once they're good at it, they get paid to do it.

Do you do you ever struggle with the collaboration aspect, like especially as an animator? And, you know, I know that you've done like a lot of rendering stuff like lighting and visual effects. You're your creative portion is still artistic, but it's working with other people. And so your vision often has to like work in concert or for someone else. Like does that make it hard to to apply your identity to it? I think that that that's not my personality, but I do too.

I could see that being an issue for a lot of artists. There have been times where I've been really tied to some artistic choice that made and then it didn't fit with the team and I had to make the hard choice, the alternating or slashing or whatever. But for the most part, art and craft and making things is how I socialize. It's how I connect with people. Like my Happy Place. Growing up was in the basement.

My dad would be working on one of our seaplanes and I would be in another corner, you know, tinkering with a plastic model. And we didn't say much, but like we were, we felt very connected. And so that's how I am as an adult crafter. When I'm around other people, we're making stuff. We're all on the same project that feels really good to me and that's like, that's maybe my church if I have one.

And that that feeds my spirit and I also had like really good experiences when I'm getting direction from other artists. one of the benefits of working where I work right now is that art director is not just a good movie director, but he and also do a lot of the same animation work. And so my biggest feedback is coming from a place of understanding of trade. And so like, yeah, I mean, if somebody is directing me and giving me that kind of feedback

and they understand the work that's that's the good stuff. Sir. So you are more appreciative of the process than really of the final product as far as it goes with the collaborative projects? Yeah, yeah, I guess like with a collaborative project, I don't, I have not yet had the experience where I've been super invested in the final product being an exact specific way. Like all my work with Factory Obscura has been like I'm just glad to be here.

I love I'm part of the process and the final thing we make is the culmination of obvious cool artists I know working together, and so I'm not super hung up on it. Coming out a specific way, at least most of the time. Same thing with movies. Like a movie can't be made without other hundreds of people participating. So you can tie like a specific ego to it. Like a lot of movies are.

We'll credit the director for the movie, but really what's happening is the huge team of people collaborating and that movie or that massive piece of installation art is an expression of all of those people. Now, with my solo album that I'm working on, I am super hung up on how it comes out. Yeah, I, I definitely I will tweak one little part of a beat or weeks. I've actually been doing that for the last couple weeks.

I just keep making minor edits to this one song and then like listening to it on my car stereo, which is my that's my favorite text. It's like testing music in the car stereo and then going back and being like, I fix what I just broke. So yeah, I don't know if it's like a, it's an, I mean, mine sort of project. Yeah, I can get really rich on it.

What about whenever, like working on a movie, have you ever had a situation where the part that you that you worked on for the majority of the time ended up on the cutting room floor? yeah. All the time. Does that I would ask me I'm like, I worked so hard on that and nobody's ever going to see it. Yeah. Yeah, it makes me Superman. I hate it. How do you. Okay, so, like, that's the normal feeling. That's good. I think, like, you know, it's, it's pretty healthy that it is.

That when that stuff happens to you and map and stuff that's angering happens. I think the trick is like it's not like avoiding those feelings. It's how do we deal with them? Like how do we process that for me, it's journaling and, you know, maybe going into my backyard at midnight and screaming at the moon, but yeah, I mean, like, you kind of have to be a little galvanized to do art.

And I'm sure this is true of almost any trade where you're making a thing, you know, you make the thing, you're real sure about it, and then somebody comes along and they're like, that sucks. Or, you know, maybe a gentler way would be like, Please remove this from my my domicile. I don't know. That's not right for this, for the situation. That's how I talk. My wife told me that she doesn't like something that's not right for the situation.

And tragically not yet experienced someone like seeing my art and I never like. I can't even look at that, you know? So you try try to be knowledgeable, not. Yet gotten there. Like I've never had somebody. That do you want you want somebody you want to get that because I mean it. Would be kind of exciting. The whole point of artists to get a. Reaction. I'm like, I figured out the parameter that I need to avoid. And also, I don't know, maybe I would need to evaluate.

That, but it would be a new feeling. And then you are you're out for four new experiences, right? So, so if nothing else, you want to want to try it out. Just wants to see see what it's like. Yeah. Well, and also, like, there's a part of me that, like, wants to be really good at stuff. And like, part of that is figuring out. My weaknesses are, that's like a huge thing in art too. Like if you are avoiding areas where you're weak, you're not going to survive for too long as an artist.

The trick is to find the things you're not good at and get obsessed with them and like grind on them. Practice those things until you're okay. Are good. That one. I think that in a bigger drawing class because like that teacher was talking about yeah it's art to draw hands with it but you got to do those things. Yeah that's that's what artists do to draw hands and feet and so you just got to like if that's your weak spot that but yeah, so like, I want to know my reasons. I want to know.

I don't know. I want to know what's bad about me and what's good about me. I just think all the good things about me then like I can't grow. Yeah, yeah. I think. I think right there is where you're kind of underestimating your, you know, your fitness for the show. Is that that right there is what I think of as authenticity is being aware of both the good things and the bad things about you and respecting how those how you interact with the world, what those things in in mind.

And you know, a lot of people like last episode I was talking about how people don't really accept the things that they're good at for being as good as they are. Like, you know, it's like you're an animator. Like, I've taken lots of, you know, creative and graphic design and drawing and figure drawing. I've taken all that stuff, but I could not animate my way into the paperback. So I know what you do is extremely special. I know that 3D 3D rendering is extremely hard. And I could teach you.

Could teach me, but it would be a lot harder for me to to comprehend it than it would be for you to, you know, to explain it, because you've gotten that something, that skill that you internalize. And it's so easy for you at this point, you're just like super easy. But like, that's actually a really special thing that so many people couldn't do. And people, you know, I'm like, you're so amazing at that. And you'd say, it's not that big of a deal. It is.

And it is a big deal like 95% of the population. If you took them off the street and said animate that they would be like, what? I have no idea how. So it's a special thing and we need to take the things that are special about us and appreciate them as much as we appreciate our weaknesses. And we focus on those things and say, I'm fat, I'm ugly, and I'm awkward, I'm weird. Like we talk about that stuff all the time, but we need to talk about the things we're good at too.

I do like to gas myself up from time to time. Yeah, I think. I think more people do that, especially after a hard day at work. You know, like I don't journal about positive stuff. I usually my journal is where I like throw up garbage so I can move on with my life. I'm going to do my laundry or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, like after a hard day at work, I want to sit down and just think about what am I good at, what I do. Okay. Like that's, that's pretty important.

And that actually goes back to me talking about is it true and is at times like this and stuff like the best formula I've found for giving other artists critique and really anybody critique on anything is to you. You kind of have to build them up first. Like I have like a little worksheet I wrote out for when I give artists feedback and it's like three things that are absolutely great about the thing followed by three things that are working but could be improved some way.

And then the last part is three things that could be just straight up taking out. It's not working. And I found that like you don't you don't gas people up a little bit. You don't give them some positive truth about what they're doing and who they are. They're not going to be receptive to the stuff that needs to be tinkered with or cold or whatever. Yeah. I mean, not many people can receive any instruction in a state of duress.

You know? Yeah. Yeah. So if you make somebody sad before you try to give them something to work on, they're probably not going to do a great job of being able to, you know, put that thing in action. So I, I definitely agree with that idea. I think that's a pretty cool thing that you do because, you know, you don't think a lot about how people are talking as artists. Like that's not something I think about.

I think it's really cool to hear that you take the time to like actually develop a method to give feedback so it is most beneficial for you both to give it and for them to receive it. Like, I think that's a very thoughtful thing. So I know that the place where you currently work has a lot of young people there. Like I know that you know Charlotte, the Grace Queen, who is currently working at the same place, and I know one or two other people who work there who are also pretty young.

Do you ever feel like the old guy? Always. Yeah. It's like I'm one of two senior VFX artists that are and we both feel very old. So, I mean, these seniors in the name. So you're supposed to be old, right? Sure. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't make it less weird, but do do you. Feel like a pressure to perform better because there are people with like younger, nimbler minds and fingers coming up behind you. Know, I feel a very strong desire to mentor young artists and I hang out with them at work.

I'm a compulsive helper. It's also super fun to like find these artists who are like, they're just starting out, but they're incredibly skilled already. And, you know, I can give them a couple of pointers and then they grow up very quickly and become super mega artists that go out to California and work on Disney movies or whatever. And I'm like, I help. So I think that's I think that's. It's been a common thing in my experience talking to people who feel that way.

But I think in like in the overall American like society, that's not a normal thing to to really encourage people that way and to mentor them and to, you know, and to take that pride in helping other people succeed. But I think it's a really special thing that is awesome. And like, I really applaud you doing that. Well, thank you. I, I think collaborate about the future is collaborative.

That's actually obscuring a lot of I think but I believe in like and also life is so much bigger and your trade life is about relationships and love and compassion. And those are the things that I want to express at work within reason. But like I want to nurture, you know, a sense of community and family in my workplace and help people who are growing as artists. That's the most important thing to me. I had yet to meet a project that made it like that, that downgraded that feeling for me.

Like I feel like, you know, someday I'll be on my deathbed thinking about my life and I want to look back and think about, you know, making connections with other human beings. That's that's important to me. That's very cool. So as a. Creative, do you. Feel like is this is something I struggled with, Like I have a creative brain, but do you feel like your leadership is good at making the expectations clear and easy to execute? But my leadership, like my bosses, are like.

Yeah, you get your bosses. Ooh, Well, I. I probably won't pick apart my boss's management style on a public podcast. Well, let's just say on the whole. As a creative, the experiences you've received as a creative and people telling you like you spoke to the director you working with right now being really good at having the understanding of what you're working on and being able to give good direction that way. But like he gives clear direction and it's always understandable.

He explains himself and like he always makes it connected back to the trade, like the actual tools of our trade, and it makes it very easy to work directly under him for sure. What about have you had any struggles with other, you know, other leadership in the past? yeah. I mean, if you're familiar with mechanics of office politics, all creative jobs are exactly the same. It's there are sometimes power vacuums and sometimes people are pushy and sometimes egos happen.

And all that stuff is just I think that's just a normal workplace thing for sure. And how have you been able to keep your same like mentality of mentorship and collaboration and, you know, kind of loving the process through all that? Yes. And I will say that there have been times in my art career where I have found it to be important to me personally to fight for the rights of my fellow workers.

And I think that I don't want to get to a political figure, but I think that it's really important for people and like where we're making things, working with their hands, working some way in a non managed non manager way to sort of take care of each other and look out for each other because sometimes somebody is yelling at you and that's not okay, that's not professional. Like even if they have power over you, they should not.

I mean, I feel like this connects back to the stuff that's important to me as a parent. That is that like we should treat our fellow human beings with respect and try to take care of each other because we do better together. Yeah. That's really awesome. A lot of it is how cool he gets. That sounded great. Like, so currently, do you have people working under you? Sort of, yeah. As a senior VFX or I sometimes this your degree is depending on how organized I am on a given day.

Those orders may or may not make sense to the people working for me, but I do my best to try to help people know what to do next and how to do it. I need it. Do you think that you're a consistent leader? No, no, I'm pretty moody, but, you know, I'm trying to be nice. So here's here's the here's what I what I've developed on leadership and I work comes to consistency. That doesn't mean that you always respond the same way. It means that you respond to your response the same way.

And so whenever you are in a bad mood and you, you know, you have that bad interaction, if you were consistent, you always go back and have another conversation with that employee and you say, Hey, that was inappropriate. The way I approached you about that thing. I just want to make sure you know that you're important and that that was unfair of me. So that's what I mean by consistency. Well, in terms of like regulating my emotions in the workplace, I've never.

Okay, well, one time I yelled at a boss, but that was a special circumstance. I think they probably deserved it. I, I can't speak to that. I'm sorry. Nobody deserves to get yelled at. Right? Yeah. Maybe he didn't do that. I don't know. You know, you are. But yeah, I'm like, for me, it's more like I feel like I have disrespected people who are working under my direction when I give them inconsistent or like, sort of gas lady goals, you know, like moving goalposts sort of things.

And I hate it when I do that because it frustrates people and it makes them feel like they're going nuts cause they're like, it's like I said, some, you know, narrative about reality that it's not real. Yeah, that's so my goal in giving directions to people who are working with me. For me, however you want to put that is I just want to be friendly and try to approach true. I think that's I think I would consider that consistent. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, Very, very cool.

so talking about that being young thing or dealing with the youngsters at work whenever I was at school, like this was last year, I went back to school and finished my bachelor's and was working with a lot of the creative people doing graphic design and like figure drawing. Like I said, I struggled a bit with wanting to seem cool, like I never let it take priority over the learning or the experience at all.

But like sometimes whenever we had to represent, I would feel that clench like, you know, God, like they're going to think that I'm the lame old dude who's not good at this and I should hang up my, you know, my Photoshop or whatever. But every day. How do you do. So how do you, how do you deal with that. I don't know.

Let me preface this with a bit of reality about me being an artist, and that is that during the opioid epidemic I had a job where this big major corporation bought out the company and laid everybody off and suddenly I was unemployed and I was on unemployment and all I could think was relief. This is great. I'm going to go back to school. And I did. I went back to online school. I cleaned my house. I like sat around, hung out with my kids. It was wonderful.

and I really thought that I wasn't ever going to go back to my art career. And now I've lost the original plan. What was your question? I'm sorry. You know, the the. We were talking about the desire to be cool. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know how that relates to that other than like every day at work I worry about that. And like, part of me is a little bit aloof now because of that. So was that part of the reason why you didn't think you would come back? Is that that.

That feeling to try to, you know, fit in with the people while you're doing this thing? Was that the fear? No, no. The again, I'm going to sound a little soapboxes, but in the last 20 years, the American workplace has experienced a slide in terms of workers rights and the way that people are treated. wages have been hovering at a low average. Well, cost of living has gone up extremely. And I think that it is very important for workers to organize at this point.

and so we as a society can start to address our people when they are at the workplace because people, I mean, when you have a job, your life happens that work hours, the hours of your life. And if those hours are unpleasant, then your needs are met. you creating a spiritual drought where we're creating a generation of people who are increasingly sad or, malnourished

or don't have access to health care or whatever. So, my personal feeling is that many of the jobs that are available in the American job market are non essential. We found that out.

And so there's like a lot of work, it's not essential work and maybe, maybe like the answer to all of our problems is that it's everybody being employed all the time and like maybe our future relies on innovation, especially now that we're wrestling with a heavy stuff like climate change, like we need people to chill out and, think new thoughts, people to come up with new solutions to these big problems we created by doing the same thing over and over the grind, like burning fuels

or in many ways just like burning people. Energy. As I as I said earlier, I've made a lot of art that I wouldn't have chose to make, and I've made it for a lot of people. I wouldn't necessarily have chosen to work simply because I was chasing down money or feeding my family or whatever the heck, or needing to go to the dentist or whatever. So. So now. Tying that to a question I was going to ask later. But, you know, you talked about these big heavy problems that we're dealing with.

Does that tie in to your view of AI and the future? Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm glad you brought up and I although like I'm kind of aimlessly excited about it, I don't really know, like. I'm like I'm on the fence because I'm excited, but I'm also terrified. Like, you know, I think it's going to keep going up, like on a balance scale. Then it's going to keep one side goes up and that goes up because as it gets more impressive, it gets more terrifying.

I think the thing about a guy that well, there's there's a lot of components of why people are afraid of it. One is the basis of my problem with the American workforce, which is that it's come in for our jobs. Right? Right. People are afraid they're going to lose their jobs. But then like, look at what most jobs are like. Is that important? Is that necessary for the survival of humanity? Does this benefit people? Like what is the purpose of this? Like?

I mean, ask a telemarketer if they want to go home and take a break and maybe just get paid to stay at home. They'll be like, Yeah, I don't think this telemarketing is helping anybody. Right? And a lot of jobs, like not all jobs. I mean, some of the jobs are being imported. And we're always going to need people working on things. But also like, you know, if we can get A.I. to automate A.I. and automation to make some of these things just sort of happen automatically are going to be them out.

I'm okay with that. I know like that in many ways makes me kind of a traitor to other artists because a lot of artists right now are very worried is like one of the first things I was used to do right, is synthesize. I needed this huge training set of artwork made by hard working artists, and then I can just dynamically spit that out forever. Infinite cheap art. Yeah. and I think that air is going to come for a lot of our jobs that way.

A lot of what we do, we're going to have to question ourselves like, is this valuable to me to know and is this work important to me, even though maybe it's not essential anymore? but as an animator I'm very excited about, yeah, there's a lot of my job that makes no sense for a human to have to do, and it's really boring and it's repetitive and it doesn't really like there's no benefit to a human doing it.

But I think about, at work we do something called rotoscoping, which is just tracing over people in my footage so that you can put them in front of or behind, CG characters. And that's like a huge component of it. And like, you can lose weeks to rotoscoping a shot that's maybe just a few seconds. You're just tracing a person over and over and over and Yeah, okay, I can do that is fine. I'll let the robots have our question. So this is this is me.

Like, I'm going off in a little bit of just a curious aside like I'm I'd say I'm pretty much proficient in after effects. Not great at it, but I'd say I'm proficient. So there's like a rotoscoping tool. There is the difference between like movie level editing and what people do at home or, you know, like even semiprofessional even some professionally but not great. Is it the not using the rotoscoping tool and tracking it versus actually like going by frame by frame and hand rotoscoping?

Well, I mean, if you're talking about the rote approach, yeah, I love that thing. And that is actually high powered. So it make. Sense. You're like trace a little spot and then it tries to guess. my experience with Rodo work is that whatever tool works the fastest is the one you want to use. So if roto brushes giving you professional looking results, then you have professional results. Yeah. Art is all about how a thing looks right? With with video games.

When I was doing 3D modeling, it was a little different. My art had to look good from several angles, but when I'm editing a shot in a movie, all that matters on those pixels and it doesn't matter what kind of cybercrimes I had to get there, it you know, there's no there's no wrong way if you come up with good results. Yeah yeah. That, that that little aside took me off of where I was going to go next because you said something that interests me and I remember what it was.

So we're talking about A.I., and my fear isn't that it's coming from our jobs. It's kind of going back further to what you said about burning people fuel like it's my I'm very much The Matrix here where we literally become the fuel for the machines. Like, that's where it gets scary to me, is that the machines get smart enough to realize that we're the problem and we are also the solution by being the fuel.

And that also solves the problem of the damage doing by putting us in a state where we can't actually actively do damage to anything and we provide fuel machines so they can go fix everything that's, you know, totally unrealistic but still scary. I think it's actually very real. So you're not supposed to say that? Yeah, I think it's incredibly realistic. And I think that at the root of it is a fear that we have a species and that is that the future of consciousness may not be in human heads.

The future of consciousness may not be in humans or even like DNA based life at all. Like once, once you create A.I., the way we have and it's, it's not super complex yet, but it will be the stuff that can develop is just the way a living thing and not exactly to the point where it starts to become indistinguishable from real consciousness like that calls it the question like, is the ideal place for personhood consciousness inside of the human body. And I don't. That freaks me out.

So, like, it gives me a little hope because, you know, there's some part of me that looks at like climate change stuff like some of the projections for that and like, maybe humans don't have a super long time. So are you saying, like in our bodies versus like what? Like a cloud consciousness. Or in a machine or however that manifests with A.I.? I think one of the major differences between us and like a human person, a functioning, trained A.I., is that it's just a matter of having a body or not.

Like, I think if you take learning tech and you put it into a body that has some like mechanical inclinations, like it needs, like it's going to want to recharge its battery, you want take shelter in the rain or something like that, but you just let it exist and learn. Being in a body, in an environment, it's going to be almost indistinguishable from people. That's my opinion. But also I want you to take whatever I'm saying about A.I. with a grain of salt, because I am just artist.

Yeah. I mean, we're all just the same thing. So, I mean, it's a conversation that it's important to have because if if the public isn't concerned, isn't part of the conversation, people who are not the public are going to make the decision for us. And so, I mean, I, I definitely am willing to give up a certain amount of security for a certain amount of convenience. Like that's that's the tradeoff. And, you know, you were talking about like the rotoscoping and, you know, the 3D modeling.

I think that we're moving a lot of the minutia by giving it to A.I. allows you to think bigger thoughts, solve bigger problems. Christo, who's one of my favorite podcasters and a designer, talks about all the time that I just gives the right now gives the manual labor of design to the robot so you can have bigger design ideas. And I really like that part. But at the same time, like I don't know how to draw the line and say like, this is where we have to start before.

And I don't know if I don't know if there is a point where you can even say like it has to stop here before it turns into that tipping point where it can be a dangerous creation. I don't know. I think it's already too creation. We, like a lot of our military fighter planes are unmanned and nearly, nearly invisible.

And like I was reading about a stealth drone the other day that the U.S. uses a lot and it's got cameras on the top and a bunch of little screens on the bottom so that it looks exactly like the sky. It's flying through and it is pulling autonomous and powered by like through air. And so like this stuff, it's not only is it going to manage us more in the future, but it's already managing us. It handles our mortality in ways that we probably don't want to think about on a daily basis.

so I feel like at this point it's inevitable. and I also, yeah, I don't know, I guide it. Humanity is, it's a relatively new species. Yeah. And there's, there's not a lot of guarantee that we're, our species is going to be around forever. But having that elevated.

Consciousness and awareness of that, how does that, how does that sit with your identity like, you know, tying it all back into honoring yourself and authenticity, like knowing that looming thing and being, you know, both interacting with it very often, like I know you do like a lot of air and stuff. I like How does that like, how do you deal with that? Like that intrinsic and very deep conflict? Well, I think it goes back to the idea of like rugged individualism, right?

That's that's a story that we tell ourselves after. We've been told that many times. The idea that our individual self is not actually part of a large network of things that are doing things you know, like we're part of family units, we're part of workplaces. We're kind of like, I mean, I'm not physically connected to you or my coworkers, but in many we are kind of a network of of cells, you know?

And I think that the idea of having consciousness and being part of that sort of tapestry, for lack of a less hippie ish term, is cool. I think it's cool. I think it's a great I think it's a way for us to be less lonely in the universe, too. the idea that we can have a thing that thinks the same way we do and has some similar concepts of what reality is to us, that's cool. And you don't think that that's similar, that the prospect of similar consciousness is a threat to our consciousness?

I think lots of things are threats to our consciousness. social media, bad habits. Example. Yes, social media. Yeah. yeah. Like I, I don't know, like, or just. Do you ever think about how many things you do every day? The exact same thing and wonder if maybe you chose that? Or maybe you're just doing it every day because that's what you do? Well. I try not to think about thoughts. Like that, but.

I also try not to think about whether or not this is actually a real existence or we're in the Matrix, or if it's a thought program like the, you know, the kind of the philosopher that said that, you know what, if we're not actually here, what if we're just part of a thought program? That is, we're all laying asleep somewhere and this is I mean, which is basically what the Matrix is based on. Overall, all chained up in a cave. And we're looking at the shadows on the wall cast by the fire.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that stuff. I hate it. There's no there's no way to know. And also, we now have some science that indicates that maybe our universe is a little more frail than we thought and that maybe our material reality is a projection from something less dimensional activity.

Again, we're traipsing into territory that I'm really qualified to talk about as an expert, but like, I don't know, like, I think I think individual consciousness is the story we tell ourselves, and it's very comforting comforts these bodies that we are, but when it comes down to it, a lot of the things we do, things that we're just going to do, no matter what, authentic or not, that stuff's going to happen, right? And if it's just going to do some things.

And I'm going to switch gears like I can I can carry on this vein of conversation for a long time, but I know that my wife will be listening and we would definitely lose her if we talked about this stuff any longer. She she's not she doesn't like thinking about breaking reality type things. It makes her it aggravates your anxiety. I mean. Aggravates my anxiety, honestly. Yeah, me too. But yeah, but she's still like, a little bit and like, I like. I appreciate that.

Think that's pretty cool that you are still thinking those deep thoughts. I'd like to take a trip to the dark place pretty regularly. I like to take the weird stuff. It's fun, you know, like. Like playing daddy or, like, watching a spooky movie. Yeah, I think it's definitely like watching a scary movie, but it might be real. That scares me. Yeah. So let's switch. Gears a little bit. Like, so you currently co-parent your children, right?

Yeah. Like, how would you say you're a successful co-parent? Well, I don't know. As much as as much as you're a successful parent. Would you say that you are as successful co-parenting. As it are? Really big moving targets for me. But what I will say is that I'm proud of the relationship I have with my two kids and the way I've been able to nurture that and I will also say that since my my partner or my ex and I separated, I have been a lot more free to improve my dad game.

And so right now I feel like I'm the best dad I've ever been. But I don't know if that's a success or fail scenario, much as it's like a work in progress. And I'm always trying to figure out how to refine that, how to, how to do better and maintain my relationship with my kids better. I think that's definitely a success.

Like, I wouldn't compare it to the old way, like necessarily, but I would say that you were trying then and you're trying now, and the way that you just described it is definitely successful. And the fact that you're thinking about how you're doing it and being intentional, that in itself is a success as a parent to me.

Like I'm not you know, I'm not here to validate your parenting, but I do want to say that anybody who is taking the time to think out how their parenting is at least to some degree of success, because it's a it's a thing that is a lot of people take for granted and they don't put the work in. And, you know, we think our whole generation is a pretty good example of what it looks like whenever people don't do the work, take like bringing up their kids.

I was raised with parents who, you know, just tried to beat all the bad out of me. That's like I'm now afraid and anxious about a lot of things that I don't think I would have been if I had been raised with more love. So I actively try to do different with my kids. That's cool. Yeah. It's not cool. That was. No, I mean, you know, like, you can only really be responsible for how you respond to all this stuff that happens to you in life. That's just sort of that's how how it is.

But like I, I also have trouble calling myself successor now because I make a lot of mistakes. Like, you know, I think about like, especially now that I only had my kids after a week. I think about it over the course of the week like, what can I do? How do I make this work better? What can I like, nurture these kids, make sure they're learning, make sure they're getting what they need emotionally, intellectually and spiritually, whatever. But also, I make a lot of mistakes.

And like, sometimes I'll catch myself regurgitating stuff that I soaked up when I was a kid and then my parents did. I was like, I'll never do that. So I don't know if I can make a lot of mistakes. I'll try to correct them and and I make different mistakes. Yeah. I mean, I. Think that being being accepting of our mistakes as part of the success, like to me that is, that's a big part of it because if you just made the mistakes and stayed in that, that's failure.

It's making the mistakes and continually trying to improve and, apologizing for those mistakes and, you know, readjusting and, you know, you're never going to be perfect. It's a continual process. So it's success to me is are you still growing? Are you still getting better? And that's you know, that's my goal. And I know that I am far from the best parent I've ever seen, but I'm a much better parent than I have been in the past. And I continue to try getting to be better.

Know, I consider that to be a success. Like if you're if you feel like you are making improvements over the way that you were raised or you were formed, you know, like that's kind of all we can do, right? Like, you can't you can't make a gigantic V, at least in my experience, I tried to make a huge change in myself. That's not necessarily going to happen. But what I can do is accept the, you know, the sort of behaviors, ideas and life habits of me and then try to gradually change that.

I definitely I have made a huge leap from what I was raised as. But it doesn't mean that I've made a bunch of huge leap since I, like I can say shunned that like that idea, but I've definitely made continual progress. But the huge leap was like, I'm never going to my children. I've only ever put my hands on one of my kids one time ever.

And that to me is a huge leap, considering I can think of ten or 15 times that I was spanked and then another couple times in which I would slap and, you know, like that's that was my reality. That was not. Happening. I appreciate that. Thank you. I had a few moments that as a kid and it wasn't frequent. And I mean, you know, looking at what frequent was for me, two or three, like I would say two or three, like spankings every six months was pretty regular.

But for somebody else, like people went home and got well on every day. So, like, and like, I feel like I feel so bad for them. That doesn't mean I shouldn't also feel bad for the child. Hit me as well. You know, I'm trying to trying to get better at not comparing other people's trauma, you know, and saying like, it's okay that I had this thing and that was a big deal to me. It's, you know, it's a continual process of just like appreciating that trauma hurts.

The thing about being little and experiencing any kind of violence is that you carry that with you forever and there's no easy way to set it down. You can't put it anywhere. It's just at least again, I'm speaking from my own experience, like there's no there's no, you know, like it's just always in here. And so I feel like there is definitely vigilance. Like I've definitely had moments where I've been really frustrated as a parent, and I'm like, okay, I just need to walk out of this room.

Yeah. I think that it's a really good point, that it's, you know, that is one of the things that that you can never get rid of, but you can adjust how you deal with it. You can, you know, make sure that you don't let those things guide you. Like this is, you know, a big part of my last two years of life has been kind of looking at how those things that happened in my childhood has affected the way I act. And, you know, my current life.

And there was a lot of stuff that was going unchecked because I just never took the time to, like, process those emotions and deal with those things. And once I started to look at it, I was like, Wow, I like I hide from a lot of stuff because or I lie because I was terrified of getting spanked. And whenever I, you know, whenever I lied, I'd get spanked.

And so I try to live better instead of like my lesson, to be honest, was like the goal was like, if I catch you doing this again, okay, don't get caught and get better at life. Get better at hiding. And that was like my continual journey for like 35 years of my life. And then I was like, crap, I've been doing this for 35 years now.

I have to unlearn this thing because I've been lying to my wife, I've been hiding from my kids, I've been, you know, faking this life for, you know, as a married man, almost 15. Holy crap, that's a lot of work. But knowing it, realizing the effect that it had and just like, you know, being able to put a name to it. Yeah. Was it. Yeah, it was a huge it was a huge unlock for me that made such a massive difference. And then sharing that burden with my wife and having her accept me, love me.

Anyways, another huge like huge growth moment for me, it's that sometimes it's dealing with it when you know on your own level. That was my first level of like authenticity and honesty was like being truthful about all the things I'd been hiding and lying about. Then it was sharing it with my wife, who was my partner and my best friend was like, I think I need to tell you these things. Which one of those was like, If you don't start doing some self work, like we're not gonna be able to work out.

I was like, Okay, I've been doing the work. Here's what I found this is going to hurt. And, you know, it was painful for both of us to have that conversation, but it has made us both better spouses because she understands me better and I unburden myself from all those things that I was still holding on to from, you know, up to 30 years ago after. Yeah. It's a lot of snot in that conversation.

I mean, yeah, yeah, for sure. It's very heavy. So you've talked you talk some about your your former spouse is your relationship is still fairly good. it's way better now that we're split up. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like we had I've heard this repeated a few times. COVID came for the straight couples, and I think it's true to a certain degree.

A lot of people were suddenly forced to work from home and they were in close quarters with their spouse and forced to confront potential flaws, their relationships, man had and I think that us being sort of crammed into the same space, along with some other tragic life events like just sort of light on fire and disintegrate, but then like to see both of our credit.

I think we both wanted to be good parents and but extension good co-parents, which meant getting along and also like, look, if there was ever like an expression like, I don't like you anymore with my spouse, we're just like, we do not get along at all. And so the longer we lived in a separate, the better we've gotten along. And it's a lot like getting a friend back to see someone. One of very few people. I can talk in great depth about like movies

and TV with because we both have the same production animation degree. So. yeah. We I don't know. A lot of the time when we talk now, it's like old times because we have some boundaries in place about like how frequently we hang out and how often, where or how much time we spend together. I feel like we've it's like winning scenario.

I am super bummed though, about being a divorced parents in terms of my kids because I know that there are a lot of developmental benefits to having parents stick it out and stay together. Yeah, but I think that probably more applies to scenarios those parents actually get along. And, you know, I think. It was like being trapped with two yelling ogres sometimes for my kids. You know, I love them, but I don't want that for them. And also I don't that the data is.

Still out for how well kids are doing with successful co-parenting, like with with two parents who still both love them. Neither one of them has gone across the country to start a new family. Or are they like my parents could not be in the same room for 20 years after the divorce without fighting. Like, that's ridiculous. So you guys are, you know, pretty quickly after the divorce, able to still attend those you know, those those benchmark events and do that stuff together.

So the kids still getting at least a partial like both of my parents here experience. And I think, you know, I would I would like to see it, you know, in ten years what those kids look like, you know, what kind of issues they're facing, if, you know, the ones that, you know, divorce kids do this, that's you know, I'm a divorced kid who did this. Well, let's see these kids whose parents are divorced and still get along. Let's see what that looks like. I it will be different. I hope so.

I was you know, I want great things for my kids and being a dad was not something that I really thought was in on the books for me, I guess, when I was young. And then I got married to my ex and she was very compelling and was like, Yeah, I want to be a good mom. We should have kids, Let's set a date. I was like, okay, and then, I don't know, my kids have definitely been this is going to sound a little inhuman, but they've been my favorite creative project.

Like, I love a lot of things for them and seeing the cool stuff they do as a result. So I mean, and I definitely I wouldn't say those exact words, but I share the sentiment of seeing something that you had a very part in putting on this planet grow. And you know, you've shaped them and you've been able to help them like make the best of this life.

And that's really cool to like, I don't know, like I'm in the phase with my oldest out where it's like we're watching animate together and I'm able to appreciate these things and have good conversations and like, you know, she's not just my friend. Like, I'm not going to say she's like my best friend. It's like she's like a good friend whom I still have to parent. So, like, I still have, you know, every now and then say hard things, but I still get to enjoy this little version of myself.

I'm not going to say version of myself, version of good things about me that I've been able to protect. Yeah. And then, like little us with far less baggage. Yes. And and I love that. Like, I love the opportunity to continue to protect that. It's hard, you know, it's it's a really good job. And I would never I would never give it up for anything to, you know, have that ability or that that responsibility to keep that person who we created in the best shape as possible into her adulthood. Right.

That's a tough goal. But we want to get her there for you. Pretty Well, and damage so then she can, you know, take on life with a fresh start. And like a lot of us were unable to agree. So from what I understand and you can tell me if this is if this is too personal, your ex ended up getting with the person who she had been with for like a lot of high school very closely after you guys divorced. Duh. Did that how did how did you deal with that? Maybe Very sad and jealous.

Yeah. Like jealousy. Is that where I go immediately? I immediately think, How long has this been brewing? I was, I, Was that your thinking and like, what conversations you have with her. Many animated loud visitations, which I will not repeat. Yeah. I mean, I don't expect you to repeat conversations, but. I don't know.

I tried to make in my life for that because that was obviously on the horizon and I was like, Well, okay, maybe we can have like an open marriage and then when the marriage was open, it was the worst I have ever felt in my entire life. Like my heart had been torn out of my body and was being stomped on. So I decided maybe that wasn't for me. I think that's probably a good decision. Yeah, this is a planned retelling, but yeah, it was a rough ride. It sucked. So was it. I'm not jealous anymore.

I feel very relieved to be free of what was a very broken dynamic in a marriage. I marriage had, like, a lot of great moments. I was married for 14 years, and much of that is really brilliant, wonderful memories with someone who, like, I don't know anybody else that can talk to you on the level that I was able to talk to her. And so that's the kind of stuff I want to hang on to you and like looking at the breakup and like who she's saddled with and all that stuff.

Like, I don't know how that makes me sad, but I feel like it helped me learn a lot so well. It seems like you've gained a lot of levity from it, but yes, I've like, I've I want to clarify it. You said it was on the horizon before you guys even opened your marriage. What does what does that mean? I mean, like they were talking. So so was this. Kind of vibe, as the kids say, okay.

And you tried to be instead of saying like, this needs to stop right now, you've tried to, you know, try to create a situation where your relationship can exist in this space along with that relationship. Yeah, Well, and like, this is this is happening while other stuff is going wrong in our lives. That's a mutual friend died around that time COVID was happening, so we were stuck in the same space.

We weren't super getting along, so it was like I could pinpoint that one thing I could say, this is why the whole marriage went down in flames. But that's not true. The truth is there were a whole bunch of systemic issues. There are a lots of cracks in the foundation. So it's like I could I mean, like I've definitely had moments where I've been hyper focused on this one thing, this jealousy thing, because jealousy is one of the biggest, scariest emotions, right?

Like the feels like your very existence is being threatened, right? Like your way of life. Just everything you're connected to that's important. You want to hang on to it. but I don't know. My personal feeling about jealousy is that if it controls you, it's already too late. It's too late for you to participate in that relationship in a healthy way anymore. If jealousy is what's driving your choice, it's so. But, I mean, I think that that's an amazing, like an amazing take away.

But how did you get there? How did you to that point where you could say that, Massive amounts of therapy, talk therapy really helped me. I well, it was talk therapy and it was talk therapy with someone who I liked. It was someone who had enough similarity to me in age, culture, whatever, where I was able to talk to him and also like I didn't want to be jealous anymore, like jealousy. It's painful and it's. But but you do often enter into that, you know, anybody.

It's like wanting to feel jealous is one of the like, it's one of those intoxicating emotions where you're, you know, you almost don't want to stop. Right? Yeah, it's bittersweet. Yeah, Melancholy, sort of. So part of the key for you was accepting that you wanted to move on and you didn't want to be jealous anymore. But yeah, I didn't want to feel it anymore, for sure. I didn't see it as a physical sensation in my gut. Yeah, it was awful. And, yeah, I don't know it.

For me, it was like I would just ask myself, Do I want to feel this way anymore? And the answer was no, Of course I don't want to have a tummy ache, but he wants. To take extreme. Despair and like, that's the opposite of what most people want. and I also like, I didn't want this thing to define me, right? Yeah. I didn't want to be the guy whose existence was defined by those parameters. and jealousy also had been like sort of a core component in our first getting together.

Like, I'd been kind of like, weirdly possessive, like I wasn't, like, aggressive or mean about it. Now, maybe I was. I don't know. I had the capacity to be a jerk, a jealous jerk who we first got together and like, I look back on that, and I don't like that either. Like, I'm like that to me, like, that may been authentic, but I don't want that to be and I want to avoid that.

If I have a partner, I want to trust them and I want to, I'm a big subscriber to the whole let them mythology or whatever you wanna call it. Basically like, you know, you love somebody and you see them doing it, things that maybe you don't approve of, you just kind of let them do it. Yeah, let them do their thing. And if that leads to the dissolution of a relationship, maybe that's supposed to happen.

Like, you know, I don't feel like a good relationship is the kind you have to, like, fight for unless you're fighting yourself to change. Right. I don't ever want to fight a partner or someone close to you. I mean, unless they vote for Trump. I love that. I like. I like that you made that amendment that you it's not something that you fight for unless you're fighting yourself. Because like I do think that you do have to fight for like a marriage. It's you have to be working on it.

You have to be working for it. And that is the fight. But it is, like you said with yourself, if I am constantly telling my wife she needs to work on herself harder, then like I'm not gaining any ground.

Like I'm really I'm really digging into the idea of like keeping your side of the that keeping side of the street clean, really taking care of your own mental health, trying to grow yourself and then communicating with your partner openly and like telling them, hey, this is this is what I'm feeling. This is what I'm saying, this is what I'm thinking. I just want you to know and letting them act accordingly and, and, you know, hopefully meet you there.

And you're both growing towards the same place. Yeah, well, that was that was another systemic problem with my marriage is that, like, there were people we were apportioning time and space for each other to be over ourselves and feeling our feelings. There is a lot of like, this is the right way, you know, this is the right way. and then it led to conflict, which oftentimes had no solution. Yeah. So yeah. No. Yeah. You said something else. Really interesting that I want to dig into.

You said there's a lot of therapy with someone I like someone with. I think it's really. Everybody says, go get therapy. All right. Yeah. And that's that's where it stops. And I. Think it can't just be any therapy. Though, even if it's like, you know, this person's the best therapist in all of Oklahoma. Okay, But is the best therapist for you. Right? I think that's something that's important to talk about. So talk about your experience a bit more about why this one was so good for you.

similar age, similar life experiences and similar values. there is this is my there's no way you're getting benefit from a therapist who has a completely different cultural background to you. Like, it's just not, it's not going to work. I mean, you can't, you can't just go find a therapist who's going to agree with you about everything because what's the point, Right? You need somebody to be like, Hey, that. That's why I don't do that. Yeah.

but it, it makes it more, it makes that advice more believable and more digestible, but it's coming from someone who has some similar textures to you personally. But the religious upbringing or lack experience with divorced parents, divorced parents or like whatever those developmental parameters are or whatever, like, I feel like it's I don't think it should be like your best friends with your therapist, but like, there has to be some sort of common ground.

and I think like post-COVID, COVID have the benefit of the whole world realizing that mental health is incredibly important, right? People are reaching for therapy, but like, that's not the whole shebang. Like, you got to got to kind of sift through who's a good mental health professional. I would definitely agree that for that deep work, you need somebody specialized for you. But I would say that, you know, a good therapist can help with a lot of the basics to start out with.

So, you know, if you if you find a person and they're not like the person, I think you should still keep seeing somebody until you find the person you know to rip, because sometimes you just need help, like in some, you know, and a lot of therapists are good with a big broad help.

But whenever it gets into like the deeper work of, you know, digging into certain parts of it, it does help to have one somebody you feel more comfortable opening all the way up with and, somebody who you identify with is going to be easier to open all the way up with. So that's one thing. And also somebody who has life experience to draw from for that thing is going have more than textbook knowledge of that thing. As a textbook knowledge is super helpful.

Like, I'm not I'm not going to discount that at all. But that life experience at that next level like that that level up, which is going to help a specific person. I think for sure. For sure. I just appreciate you bringing that up. And so I'm going to start trying to bring this to a close because we're approaching 2 hours and it's been. Like, that's that's fine. Yeah, it's like I've been like 45 minutes.

I have said that my superpower is being able to sit people in that seat and forget how long they've been there. I, I really enjoyed doing it. So fun. And I've learned so much about you, and I honestly could talk for another 2 hours. But I told my wife I tried to start keeping them under 2 hours. And I think that's fair. You know, like that's hey, you know, let's let's be open and communicate and tell me what's what you're feeling. She's like, you're taking too long. It's like, okay, fair.

Is there anything about the animator archetype that, like, irks you or that you really don't identify with. A lot of artists? Production artists specifically are ruggedly independent and it tends to do more harm to the individual and is collaborative. And so I think that would be a major issue too. Like right now, Hollywood striking and the VFX teams at Disney are looking like they're going to unionize.

And honestly, that will be a surprise to me because like a lot of the animators and production artists I've known in my life have been very repetitive and individualistic. And I just, you know, I hope any of you are listening just hold hands with each other and be nice, collaborate. I mean, because we we see how much is getting done with people not working together. That's that's been well, how long has it been now. Like. Eight months and take a toll gas strike.

Is it a lot longer? I don't know. That's a total guess. But by the time this airs, at least it'll be eight months. Time flies when you're having some. Or not have a job. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I hope people are eating. I don't know. I don't know what to make of that. Yeah. But I also know having seen the inside of the film industry that that strike is justified and I hope that yeah, people can figure out how to collaborate making movies is fun and cool and it's a privilege.

And so it boggles my mind that the people who pay for these things don't want to pay creative for their hard work. I mean, it's always the people who get there who are so used to making so much money that they can't even fathom giving up 10% to pay everybody much better. It just it is nuts. And I don't think it's even 10%. I think it's like a fraction.

I mean, that's me thinking of NFL NBA, the NCAA, AA every like huge industry that is making so much money off of a certain group of people and they say, Hey, we want to be paid more. They're like, and you know, and it can be, you know, somewhere between two and 10% that would give everybody enough to be happy. And they're just like, well, I don't think so. So interesting to me because, like, it feels like some kind of mind rebel thing.

Like you get to have $12 million, but have to sustain massive brain damage forever. Yeah. I mean, do. I want $12 million? That that wouldn't be smart enough to that money. I don't know. Here's the here's I used to play football in high school. I was never good enough to, you know, go do you want, you know, playing pro or anything.

But if I had been and knowing the information I know now, what I would have done is I would have played through my rookie contract, hopefully been good enough to get one good contract, negotiated the heck out of it to where I could play for four years and make $120 million work like, you know, it's been like I have lived on $100,000 a year and just then live on that.

But I've only ever heard of one NFL player who does anything similar to wide receiver who lives like he makes a makes, I think like 70,000 a year and everything else goes in the bank. And I'm like, Why would you not do that? Because then you can retire whenever you want to. You can stop. You're still healthy versus living like you make $10 million a year. I mean, it probably gets increasingly difficult with each collision out on the field. Yeah, Yeah.

I mean, choices become less and less. Yes, but yeah, I don't know. I don't know what I would do. I don't have the frame of a person who can play football. So it doesn't really matter. Like you sent me out there and I'm just like a rag doll. I mean, you're you're all. Like, you. You if you worked out for, like, you know, six months to a year, you can put on ten, £15 of muscle and the for you know, it's unanimous.

But what the rating is, I mean you get along reached I mean that's what he is that Yeah yeah yeah I'm going to I'm going to go play football at 40. I'm going to start right now. Yeah I would that would be a mistake. Please don't do that. No, fine. Nobody is going to die in this situation. So first, not recording. It's getting late, it's getting dark. I'm going to bring it to a close. Is there anything that we didn't get to you that you wanted to share? No. This has been super fun.

And I just want to say thank you for letting me be on your podcast. I absolutely it's been an absolute joy. You did very well. I don't know why you were at all anxious. You didn't. You're super great guest. I'm an anxious person. So I guess that's why you're anxious. Yeah. Where does Dan Moyer live? Online. And where can people find out more about you? I don't know. You could. You could check my animation out at Daniel Moyer. Dot net. That's dot net, dot.

And you could find me on Facebook, although I don't know how much I would recommend that. Why do you say that? You're tired of some real negative stuff. I think you're a very interesting Facebook follower and I don't I wouldn't say you post negative stuff. I'd say you post messy and real stuff. Okay, well, if you're into messy and real, I'm listed on Facebook as Moyer Pete, and I think it changes sometimes. But yeah, that's where I live my life. And do you want to share your ticktock?

I know you had you post a lot of TikTok reels in your stories that I love because I don't have to talk and you post funny stuff on TikTok. well, most of what I do is repost really good Tiktoks. My personal TikTok is just a bunch of videos of my face actually, like trying out different filters. And I almost got banned the other day because my youngest got a hold of my TikTok app and was playing with filters and recorded them.

So like got recorded and I was like, no. Is there like, I don't know the rules? Is there like no recording of young people on TikTok or something? I have no idea. I don't know. Well, for clarity, my children went around the house without shirts on. Come on. Right. Yeah, we used to. Get that flags and yeah, I'm glad I'm not in jail or something like that. I'm glad you're not in jail, too. totally messed up my show. You could do this from jail. That's true. I mean, interesting thing.

I don't know how you feel. I guess to call in. Yeah. So do you have any projects you're working on or any events you have that you're looking forward to want to share. In the next year or so? I should be releasing my solo album under the name Dan Tron, Tron, Dad, and if you like techno music, like Apex, Twin or Prodigy, that will probably be a thing to listen to.

And my hope is to compile it into an audio cassette with a digital download in the label for sale and mixtape back to obscure mixtape, right for big plans. We'll see if I actually there. I like that idea though. I like the idea of the the cassette, not the actual cassette, because I don't know where are you going to have anybody to play that. But I like. Know who's going to play it? I don't know. I like the idea of having it in the label. I think that's a really interesting idea.

So there's still a physical thing to buy, but you still get the digital download because that's, you know, you pretty much have to have that to enjoy music. But yeah, so like the idea of having a physical thing as well. I'm about doing like thumb drives, but I don't know, I guess most people with newer cars would stick a thumb drive in there. I don't know. We're we're still in this weird gray zone between CDs and digital media. And I guess most people have migrated into their phones

now. I've I have a CD. Well, I would still listen to see these in my car, but the CD player went out and now I just listen to the radio because my my dad broke my Bluetooth plug in thing now. So now I just have to listen to the radio and it's so lame. Yeah The radio is kind of laugh. I mean, the radio, it served its purpose for a long time, but it's kind of a dinosaur. Okay.

So thank you, Dan, for being here and having such a great conversation and for being authentic and genuine in your answers and really, you know, taking the opportunity to open up and share yourself. you're welcome. Thanks for having me on. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please, please, please leave a review. I really appreciate the feedback and it helps me heard by more listeners all this podcast.

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