I think the concept of closure, it's fraught with danger to even bring that into our... vocabulary when we're talking about deaths that are reported to coroners, because these are really the worst kinds of deaths that happen in our community. Rather than thinking about giving them closure, what I'm thinking about is trying to help them feel a little bit better in these awful times.
We're joined again in this episode of Australian True Crime by guest host, criminologist and forensic pathologist, Xanthi Mallett. Today, I'm joined by a very special guest, Stephanie Williams, who is a barrister with extensive experience in criminal law, domestic violence, and the coronal jurisdictions in Queensland. She's a highly experienced and skilled legal practitioner.
over 16 years of legal experience and has acted as a counsel since 2014. She also has extensive experience in remote and regional communities, which makes her a real value to the coronial system. Stephanie was appointed as Northern Coroner in December 2023, so very new to the role. Today we're going to be talking about Stephanie's background, how she became a coroner, and really the coronial process from her perspective.
This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation. And a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence. It's a new day, but not just any day.
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I have just a passion for the coronial jurisdiction. It is fundamentally a jurisdiction which is seeking the truth. You're not... prosecuting, you're not defending, you're not trying to prove a particular point of view. What you're trying to do is just find out what happened essentially or who it might have happened to, when and where it might have happened.
In Queensland, coroners will investigate what is defined as a reportable death. So we have the Coroners Act and that act basically says that any death that is violent... or otherwise unnatural, that happens in suspicious circumstances. Where it does might be healthcare related or it's occurred when somebody has been in care or in custody. or the result of police operations, or, and this is an area that is often misunderstood, where somebody dies and a death certificate is unlikely to issue.
Those are the types of deaths that will be reported to a coroner and that's where the coronial jurisdiction starts. Sometimes all you have is a set of facts that are circumstantial. about whether or not the person the police are saying has died is... actually that person. And I have a very personal example about why it is important. Years and years ago when I was a baby criminal lawyer, I acted for a gentleman who'd been arrested. He had actually been
determined to have died. Now, he was on the rung for decades because he had been accused of a particular offence interstate. Ultimately, after many, many years of nobody knowing where he was, this client of mine was well and truly alive, but there was a determination that he died. Part of the role of a coroner is to look for ways to prevent similar deaths from happening in the future or investigate matters of public health and safety after an inquest is held.
The coroner has the power to make recommendations for change in those systems. So that's really important in making our community a better place, I think, and for... having a role in positive change. So if you could just explain, I think, you know, we hear the words used as an adversarial system, the criminal law system is adversarial, and that's where you spent, you know, your previous career.
Whereas the coronial process is inquisitorial. Can you just explain like the two differences there? Because that is fundamentally what it comes down to. It's like chalk and cheese.
So in an adversarial system, there is a clear winner and a loser. There is one side who's trying to prove something and there is another side that's either trying to prove their own or achieve their own outcome or if you're in a criminal jurisdiction to plant a seed of doubt as to the case that's being presented against.
the accused. In the coronial jurisdiction, because it's inquisitorial, what that means is it's really investigative. In fact, coroners in most jurisdictions, but particularly in Queensland, We're not allowed to find anybody guilty or liable. So that's the key difference for an adversarial system where someone is either found guilty or they're found liable. So that means legally responsible for a death.
In the coroner's court, because it's inquisitorial, it's about finding information. And that means there's no winner or loser. in the strict sense of the word. And I say it in that way because I understand that families may sometimes feel very differently. But by the black letter of the law...
There's no winner or loser. What it is, it's about trying to get to the truth and understand what happened about a death. And as a result, you have different powers, don't you, than, say, a judge. So if I were the accused... In a criminal matter, I could not be compelled to speak. I can retain my right to silence if that is my lawyer's advice. And that's often the advice. And that confuses some people as well, because people think of that. Somebody hasn't done it. Why don't they speak?
lawyers will often advise people not to because they can obviously if I gave evidence, I can then be cross-examined on my evidence. And it is a very argumentative, you know, I think very aggressive system. So people often don't speak. But in the coronial system, you can compel people to speak, can't you? You have different powers because you're not going to lay blame.
That's right. So the first set of power really comes before somebody gets to court or before a matter becomes an inquest or an investigation, I should say. And that... is a coroner's power to compel information or documents. So that's the first power of compulsion.
The second is in inquest, if somebody comes along as a witness or firstly they're required to attend because they've been given a summons and they are asked a question by a lawyer or in fact by the coroner and the answer to which... might they think incriminate themselves, they can decline. to answer the question. However, a coroner can then compel them, as you say, to answer that question. It's a really significant power because it comes with quite an important consequence.
was to compel a person to answer a question first. I have to be convinced that the answer might tend to incriminate them. But secondly, the flow and effect of that... is that whatever they say cannot be used against them in any other proceeding except for a charge of perjury, which is when somebody is found to have or accused to have. not told the truth after swearing an oath to do so. But not only can their answer not be used against them, this is where it gets quite important, is...
any answer they give can't be used to gather other evidence to use against them. So we call that a derivative evidence. And that's where... the use of your compulsion or your power to compel someone to answer is something that I personally think you need to think long and hard about.
And I imagine for families that can be quite difficult because you could compel somebody to answer a question, i.e. were you involved in the death of this individual, right? And say you're questioning me and you compel me and I say, yes, I murdered this person, I disposed of their body, and I produced all of this information. Now, because I've done it under your compulsion, I now can't be charged with that criminally.
So for a family, they may have got answers and you may have got to the truth, but that isn't necessarily what a family might see as justice. Absolutely. I know the former coroner who would never... ever compel somebody who was a person of interest in respect of a death to answer a question because that coroner did not want to jeopardise any possible future police investigation.
Some families, and this is where it's really, I think, really important to have good consultation with families about what they are hoping to get. from the inquest, particularly if their loved one has passed away decades earlier and there has been a cold case, for example, and the matter is now an inquest, maybe all of... For them, their sense of justice comes from having that person in court answering a question that they're compelled to rather than a charge.
But that's where it's really important, I think, to have good consultation with family members. This reminds me actually of the case of Matt Leveson. What Mark and Faye Leveson have been through to find the truth about the death of their son Matt is extraordinary. The 20-year-old vanished after having a fight with his older partner.
That man, Michael Atkins, denied any involvement in the disappearance. Michael, are you in any way connected with the disappearance of Matt Leveson? No. He sensationally claimed Matt was still alive. But Mark and Faye, as well as the police, always knew it was a cruel lie. To expose it and to find Matt's body, the Levesons agreed to a horrible deal with the devil.
In return for immunity from prosecution, a free stay out of jail card, Atkins revealed where he buried Matt. This was 10 years after Matt had disappeared. Now, Matt's... Parents every weekend for 10 years solid went out to the national park where they believed Matt's body had been disposed of.
looking for him. And they would have continued to do that. And I know that Gary Jubelin was working on that case. It was New South Wales case. And he spoke long and hard to the family about what they wanted from that coronal inquest because... If Michael Atkins disclosed where the body was during that process, he could not then be charged. That was the deal. Did they want Matt's body back or did they want Michael Atkins charged?
They chose to get Matt's body back. And I mean, they did find Matt, you know, which was a blessing. He was returned to his family. And that is such a huge thing for them. But do they think that's justice? I don't know whether...
You know, if you spoke to them today, they necessarily would, but that was the payoff, the choice they made. Matt's case is one that I often think about. I've not been asked yet to consider my... compulsion power in an inquest but it's one that I'm very conscious of we are lucky enough to have several coroners in Queensland so there are 10 of us
And I've had experience being in coronial inquiries where a coroner has been asked to exercise that power. And I've seen coroners use it and I've seen... That example that I gave earlier, the coroner, that would never, ever ask. And the person was brought into court, refused to answer almost from the very first question, and then was sent away.
Moments like that which stay in my mind and really highlight the importance of the coronial system being, you can't always act in a collaborative way, but it is. a system in which the term therapeutic jurisprudence is mentioned quite often. So where families and other parties can be consulted, I think that's a really important thing.
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There is more often than not all of those suite of tools that coroners have available to them to help identify who has died, dental records and comparisons. DNA, sometimes even
Comparing blood samples that may be held in a health facility having been taken some time ago and comparing that to a living family member to see if there's any matching DNA. Even... something and it might seem obvious but if there is a person who's died and they're found in an environment where there are letters passports
BEMP cards close by and they all seem to be consistent with being connected to the person who's deceased in the same environment, then a coroner can rely on that to confirm identity. Because they won't always have a fingerprint.
to compare it to they won't always have that dna to compare it to or that dental match or another one um as a primary identifier which i've seen used a number of times is what we class as a unique medical So that could be something like, for example, I have titanium plates in my jaw from where I broke it.
If there was a presumptive identification, if I'm found deceased with my driving license, the police could track my dental records and on file, they will find the surgery and they would confirm, yes, it is in fact me. That's right. And often police will go internationally for that. They would have to. Mine was done in the UK. Yes, and sometimes it's as basic as you were last seen at this time at this place and you were getting into a car that was this colour and had this.
registration plate and then within a number of hours that car was found at a certain place a person was deceased in it and you were you know We join the dots and we say, well, on the balance of probabilities, it is more likely than not that you are the person who was in that car and who's died. Missing people, I think, can be... the most difficult for families because there is so little information.
That's why these people are missing. So when in Queensland the police have reasonably suspect that a missing person is deceased, they will forward. their evidence and the outcomes of their investigation into that person's disappearance to the coroner and a coroner will investigate. Sometimes that leads to an inquest, a lot of the time it doesn't. But later on, if a finding is made by a coroner and years down the track, there's new evidence.
then that finding can be reopened and there can be more investigation. We describe incriminology as ambiguous loss and family members will talk about that being the hardest thing because no matter how many years pass. how much evidence exists that their loved one is no longer alive, you know, no proof of life. So there's been no use of bank accounts, no phone calls, no anything to demonstrate they're still alive, yet still they cling to hope that one day...
they may come home. And I think the case that really resonates with me in that instance is the missing Beaumont children down in, they disappeared from Glenelg Beach in 1966. Three children just vanished on Australia Day. And the parents eventually separated, I think just through the trauma of losing those three children, never knowing what happened. They've still never been found to this day. And yet neither parent left Glenelg.
And it's almost as if they hoped one day the children would still come home. They would still walk through the door, you know, and it's heartbreaking that both parents died without knowing what happened. to their children. And so sometimes I work on cases that are 40, 50 years old and people say to me, does it matter? And you go to the families, to those who remember the missing or the deceased, yes, it matters.
Yes. And so I think a coronal inquest can some ways give them some, families never talk of closure, do they? But they can get some resolution. And having a finding from a coroner that their loved one is likely deceased. can provide them some resolution which can help them move forward. That's right. And I think what that resolution is differs for every family.
Absolutely correct about the concept of closure. I think it's fraught with danger to even bring that into our vocabulary when we're talking about death and particularly in... when we're talking about deaths that are reported to coroners, because these are really the worst kinds of deaths that happen in our community. So closure is, from what I've been told, something that just really is non-existent.
And the expectations then around what is a resolution and what a coroner can offer in terms of resolution vary significantly from family to family. I think... Personally, when I'm investigating a reportable death and I'm trying to find the answers that I have to find, as well as... looking for information that I know that the family are interested in, rather than thinking about giving them closure, what I'm thinking about is trying to help them feel
a little bit better in these awful times. Now, is that by trying to answer a question that they have? Is that... by doing my best to finalise the investigation quickly but still thoroughly, is that by remembering the legacy of their loved one in my findings. We don't always know as coroners, but personally it's something that I try to keep in mind. I investigated a missing young person in North Queensland this year and...
I could not say how it is that he passed away. I would have liked to have been able to give those answers to the family and I know because they told me at the end of the inquest, without finding him, they will never. be able to really accept that he's no longer with them. Unfortunately, for a number of reasons, there was just insufficient evidence to make anything but a finding that he had passed.
likely when that was, but as to how and exactly where, I just couldn't say. And that was no doubt heartbreaking for the families. So that's the role of the coroner. You're ultimately trying to determine who has died under what circumstances, right? That's your remit. And you use experts to help you with that process. And one of the group, as I said, we met at...
again, one of our many meetings at the GP's conference in Queensland for female GPs. And I was quite interested in some of the commentary there about the GP's role. in the coronial process, as opposed to what the police do and some of the rub-offs between those two groups and what they are trying to achieve for the deceased. So this is...
quite common actually where somebody dies and it is immediately apparent that they have been under the regular care of a general practitioner. A coroner will... ask the police to get the medical records from the GP or perhaps even a statement from the GP about what it is that that person had been regularly treated for, what medications they were prescribed, there can be some...
as you say, rub off between the police and the GPs about what information can be given and when. And so sometimes it takes a coroner's... power or use of their power to compel the information from the GP to really progress the investigation at the early stages. Because the GP is still trying to protect the confidentiality.
of their patient, because that's the Hippocratic Oath, you know, that is central to what they do. So they're trying to do the right thing. But ultimately, if the coroner requests information that's going to progress your... investigation they have to in essence produce that or provide that to you Absolutely. And I think the GPs are by and large trying to do the best thing by their patients and they are bound, like a lot of professional industries,
by lots of rules and regulations. And so they have been told over and over again about the importance of confidentiality. And as patients, that's what we want from our GPs. We want our private information to remain confidential and private.
So they're very concerned about doing the right thing by their patients. So it does take a coroner to ask for that information in a way that actually requires it to be provided. Sometimes... a coroner will use police to go and get the information because that... through an agreement between the police service and the coroner's court, is how information is regularly gathered for a coroner. The police will go and obtain it. So there can be a little bit of confusion, I think.
and particularly having heard some of the questions at that conference that we were both at around, well, at what point are the police asking because of possible criminal investigation versus a coronial investigation? Because the GPs won't only be protecting the confidentiality of their deceased patient, but potentially the confidentiality of that patient's family members who they may also be treating. So there's a bigger picture for them.
to really consider that I hadn't thought about until we were at that conference. I hadn't thought about the nuances because I would have thought once somebody is deceased, why would there be an issue with them handing over the information to the coroner? But they had some very differing views on that.
They did. And what about the families then? Because in the criminal justice process, I hear families say a lot that it's not a victim-centered process. The criminal justice process is very much about the criminal prosecution. guilt etc and the families or victims and their families can feel like simply witnesses for the state because in essence that is formally their role the crown is prosecuting an accused and
Any family, victims, survivors are simply witnesses as part of that process. They're not the central pillar. So what is the family's role in the coronial process? That is a... Very nuanced question. I think it depends largely on which state you're in. Courts generally, all courts. are quite antiquated. They are systems which have been created in an historical context. And change is glacial.
Absolutely. We have had a number of inquiries in Australia about court systems and how, as you say, victims are treated. There has been a lot in the media, particularly this year, around that issue. The role of families in a coronial jurisdiction can be a difficult one for them. They are thrust into a process at what is probably the most difficult time of their life. It is a process over which they have very little if any control.
And they can be consulted and they are often asked to send through any concerns that they may have. But sometimes those concerns are not matters. which a coroner actually has the remit to investigate. Sometimes, for example, if it is healthcare related, a concern might be about care and treatment of... the person who's died before they passed away. There are occasions where that falls squarely within the role of a coroner to investigate.
But where somebody has died and initially a death is reported to a coroner and a doctor, so the very first expert that a coroner engages is a forensic pathologist and they will take... a post-mortem examination. And there's different degrees of what that examination can look like. Sometimes a forensic pathologist will say, actually, this person died of natural causes.
Coroner has the ability at that point very early on in the chronology or the timeline of a death investigation to close their investigation because it's not... a death which falls under the definition of affordable death. That doesn't take away a family's concerns about care and treatment. But the person or the entity...
That's the best place to investigate those, is no longer a coroner. And so this could occur when, for example, somebody dies of natural causes, but the natural causes could have been the result of neglect in care. for example. So there may still be questions to answer, but not coronial questions to answer. And different coroners will take different views. So in the example that you gave just now, a coroner might still investigate.
So each case is going to be unique and the families, I guess, it's going to be difficult for them to maybe understand. that process and exactly what the limitations are for the coroner and what they may be able to achieve. And one of the other questions that families... seem to ask especially when they come to newcastle and they speak to us in the justice clinic they may have a coronal outcome they can be confused by the outcome
and what it means for them. So what are the potential outcomes of a coronal inquest? And what does that mean for an investigation going forward? Is it the end, for example? It's not the end. The potential outcomes... for an inquest are if a coroner is able to, they must find those things that I said at the very beginning, who died, where they died, when, how.
and what the medical cause of death was. After an inquest, a coroner can make recommendations for change or ways that relate to public health and safety or ways to prevent similar deaths occurring in the future. A coroner must if they consider on the evidence that there has been an offence committed or a breach.
of regulatory duty, for example, a coroner must refer the person for whom they have that reasonable suspicion about to the relevant authority. So that's really the possible outcomes for the inquest. If a coroner having investigated a death considers that somebody may have caused a death sufficient that they should be charged.
The coroner will give that evidence to the Director of Public Prosecutions to consider. Now then, the coroner has no more influence over whether or not a person will be charged. So they can just say there's clearly a person of interest in this case. And one that immediately pops to my mind for that happened in a coronal inquest is Chris Dawson. He was...
alleged to have murdered Lynette Dawson. We're now talking 40 years ago. He was eventually prosecuted and found guilty and is currently in prison. He's in his 70s. He's likely, frankly, to die in prison now. But the coroner didn't name him. in concluding statements, simply said there's one primary person of interest.
And kind of strongly suggested that that person was investigated, which the police then did do. They submitted two briefs of evidence to the DPP, both of which were rejected as not being strong enough to charge. It was only the third occasion.
on which Chris Dawson was charged with Lynette's murder, for which many people were relieved, feeling there was sufficient evidence. Purely circumstantial, he was found guilty. But that's immediately the one that pops to mind where the coroner was very clearly signalling. that there was a person that they believed was responsible for the next disappearance and murder. And the coroner has to do that in a way that falls within the confines of their role. So a coroner cannot...
make a finding that anybody is guilty for a death. Or the coroner can't even say that somebody murdered someone. What a coroner can say, and it might just sound like it's a matter of semantics, is Jane died because John did X, Y, and Z. You have to be very careful about using any words which make sound like somebody is guilty. Now the coroner...
would no doubt have been very much aware of not negatively impacting any possible future proceeding as well. Absolutely. So there are a lot of nuances and in some ways having a criminal background like mine makes me... quite aware of not accidentally impacting a future prosecution or even taking away somebody's right to properly defend.
an accusation. So we had coroners have to be very careful because inquests are very public. Not only are they held in open court, but they do get a lot of attention. People are fascinated by them for good reason. There is a lot of, I suppose, responsibility when it comes to writing your findings for a death. If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact 1800 RESPECT on 1800 737 732.
or 1800respect.org.au Indigenous Australians can contact 13 Yarn on 13 92 76 or 13yarn.org.au They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders past. present and those emerging. It's time to scale up that fishmonger business and With free day-to-day online banking from Virgin Money, you'll be a big fish in no time. Now that's a real catch of the day. Open Virgin Money's M account for business now. Sarah's at Jungle Fun Soft Play. Oh my gosh, Toby!
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