Attack of the Final Girls is a podcast about the horror genre so listener discretion is advised. Please check the show notes for specific content warnings for this episode. And of course, beware of spoilers. Welcome to Attack of the Final Girls. I'm Juliet. And I'm Teresa. And we are here during Pride Month to talk about a, I would say, very queer horror film.
We are talking about 1990s Nightbreed, written and directed by Clive Barker, the man, the myth, the legend. Probably one of the biggest gay authors. In all of horror-dom, I would say. Yeah, definitely. If you consider him a triple threat, like books, movies, and comic books, yeah. And theater. Yeah, that's true. Quadruple threat, really. He's an EGOT.
but in the horror way so yeah totally yeah this one's fun I haven't it's been a while since I watched it and like I mentioned at the end of last episode I forget that Near Dark and Nightbreed, two totally different movies and I recognize that. And I always get them confused because Boone's character wears a leather jacket and a white t-shirt and jeans and gets covered in blood.
Bill Paxton's character in Near Dark wears a leather jacket and white t-shirt and blue jeans and gets covered in blood. And so I get them confused. In my brain, I'm just like, oh, yeah, that's the movie. And I'm like, no, damn it. It's not the same movie. Although I guess you could kind of argue that there are similar themes in the movie, but two very different executions. Yeah, definitely. There's no like evil David Cronenberg character. Near Dark. Yeah. Bill Paxton is really the evil. Yeah.
And that really gets into an important note about this film is that there are three different versions of this movie. There is the theatrical cut. There is what's called the cabal cut, which is really, really long. And then there is... the director's cut, which is kind of of in most horror circles these days considered like the ultimate edition the director's cut adds back in about 20 minutes that were cut from the theatrical cut that really sort of
changed the nature of the movie and messed it up in all kinds of ways that we'll get into the cabal cut kind of puts everything back in it came a little earlier than the director's cut they were like We recovered all the reels. Great. Let's shove everything back into it. The director's cut is the one where Clive Barker was really intimately involved with reinserting things that were cut to really get the movie that he wanted, that the studio kind of wrecked in a lot of ways.
Yeah, that's what we watched today is the director's cut because Shout Factory re-released it on Blu-ray. It was a DVD Blu-ray box set. So there's not even an option to watch the theatrical cut on there. No. What I've read is that the...
original or sorry I guess I should say the theatrical cut of the movie cut a lot of like violence and homoerotic elements out of the movie because they didn't really understand the movie in the first place the studio didn't understand the movie in the first place and so they just kind of pulled it all out and they were like this is what we think the movie should be so here you go
And that movie is about an hour and 40 minutes. And then this one is about two hours long. The director's cut. The one that we watched is about two hours long. And I read that it actually cut 20 minutes from the theatrical version, added in a different 40. minutes yes so if that didn't confuse you all to hell We watched a director's cut. So, and I'm not sure which version I watched originally. I honestly can't remember like with that sort of eidetic detail.
which one I watched, but I was pleased with this one. Yeah. Even though this movie was a pretty big critical failure, you know, had a budget of $11 million, which is pretty big in 1990, especially for a Clive Barker film. And it only made globally like nine plus million dollars. So it was a pretty big critical failure. One of the other things I thought was very interesting is that people were like, this is way too close to Beetlejuice. I think the...
Only reason people thought that is because Danny Elfman. Underground monster world? Well, it's the Danny Elfman score. He, you know, there's some Oingo Boingo in there. Danny Elfman did some of the music for it. So it's just like. But like. Not really. Wow. Yeah. Let me give a synopsis really quick. A troubled young man is drawn to a mythical place called Midian where a variety of friendly monsters are hiding from humanity. Meanwhile, a sadistic serial killer is looking for a Patsy.
And our main cast of characters is Craig Sheffer, who plays Boone slash Cabal. You might also know him from Fire in the Sky, A River Runs Through It. He was in Hellraiser Inferno after this movie, which I... think it was like late 90s early 2000s so he would go on to star in another clive barker work although inferno wasn't specifically clive barker right you know a derivation of his work the barker verse the barker verse yes the pinhead verse yes
Somebody in one of the reviews I read said that he was a discount Josh Brolin. And I was like, what? I disagree entirely. I don't know where they got Josh Brolin because. I always think that this guy looks like David Boreanaz. Like, if you look at his IMDb pick, it's like... Definitely the IMDb pick, yeah. Craig Sheffer, who is the main character...
Boone slash Cabal. After he kind of assumes his final form, he's Cabal. David Cronenberg. Yes, the David Cronenberg plays Dr. Decker. And Bobby, who plays Laurie Winston, Boone's girlfriend slash lover. That's kind of the main cast of characters, but I am going to give a shout out to Doug Bradley. He's one of the other night breed. One guy calls him Moses because Midian was where Moses went to be in exile. His name is Dirk, though.
Dirk Lylesburg, but somebody calls him Moses and I think that that's probably supposed to be who he actually is. One of the things that was restored in the cabal cut and the director's cut is Doug Bradley. So they had to dub all of his dialogue because of the makeup that he was wearing. And that was one of the 10,000 dumb things.
studio did is they re-dubbed all his dialogue with somebody else and it's like how are you gonna re-dub Doug Bradley so they restored Doug Bradley's original voice acting Wow. What a weird thing to do. Yeah. Part of the changes that the studio made in the theatrical version were the homoeroticism. But moreover, they very much expressed, the producers expressed, that they were concerned that the monsters were the heroes. And Clive Barker is like, correct. That's the point of the whole thing.
And they were a bit pearl clutchy about that. So they tried to make some changes to that end. But moreover, in the marketing of this film, they were like, well... it's 1990 slashers are in we're gonna market this as a slasher and as a serial killer movie not as a monster fantasy horror
Which I think is a mistake because the Labyrinth to Nightbreed pipeline is strong. You know, like, if you watched Labyrinth as a slightly younger person, let's say... contemporary, like in 1986, you would probably be perfectly primed and ready to receive Nightbreed by 1990.
But they did not market it that way. I mean, there are certainly slashery bits of the film, but... a slasher it is not right if you walked into the movie thinking that it was going to be a slasher and granted like we didn't watch any trailers so i don't know what the trailers look like but if they were using all of the dr decker bits where he's like wearing the mask
mask and stuff, then you're probably going to go in thinking it's going to be more of a Silence of the Lambs Manhunter type movie versus a fantasy horror you know with like this entire supernatural like second level to the movie because it is there i mean there is a serial killer but it has so much more to do with like the other part
Yeah. Decker is just the connection between Boone and the real world, really. And like kind of the pressure underneath him that's causing him to like seek these sort of more desperate measures. Versus like a real crucial plot point of the movie. And he also brings the cops to Midian. Yes. But that's like really his only purpose. It's like the same argument you could make when we covered The Beyond a couple of weeks ago. It's like The Beyond has undead creatures.
but it is not a zombie movie. Nightbreed has a serial killer, but it is not a slasher. No, no, definitely not. Also, I want to say, before I forget, that Anne Bobby, who played Lori, I went to her IMDb because I was like, what else is she doing? done you know because she's very pretty she sings um she actually sang the song in the movie live she was in a TV series that occurred only in 1990. It had 11 episodes. It is called Cop Rock. The Musical Adventures of a Police Force. And that was like...
Oh, there's a reason why there's only 11 episodes of this. Yeah, that's... And she was the star. That's precious. That's very... That is very 90s. Yeah. Yeah, this is still during a time when like Police Academy was still like funny and people were still watching it, spending money on those movies. And then they got 86 million sequels.
So, you know, a different time. Certainly would not fly now. I mean, so let's like dive right into it, not to pivot right to the, you know, third act of the movie. But I have to say the portrayal of... police brutality of policing in this movie is pretty stunning to see 35 years later to know that this was made in 1990 you know if this was a modern movie i would expect you know this kind of nuanced view of police and policing but
This is quite an achievement for a film made in the 90s when there was so much propaganda, not the sort of overt propaganda, like law and order propaganda, but, you know, like just straight up like dare and shit like that.
know the fact that they really really went there is pretty impressive yeah i mean there's a lot of things in this movie that you could be like don't think that's how that works but the fact that this small town police slash sheriff's department goes right into the weird militia stuff like with
almost no provocation yeah it's like they're just raring to go they're like we got these pump action shotguns and we got grenades and like all this riot gear and we're just ready to use it on this cemetery full of weird people and they're just like ready to go oh yeah like
You don't even have to convince them. And they get all of the other people in this town together to do this. And they're like, yeah, no, this is how it's going to work. Distribute all of these high-powered weapons to these strange neighbors. hours and we will go and blow up literally anything yeah you could ask us to blow up a mcdonald's full of nuns and we would do it at this point totally they are ready yeah like the sheriff says the word and they're just like
Okay. We've been waiting our entire lives for this. Exactly. They truly are. It's pretty gross. The... portrayal of cops and detectives in this movie is certainly not favorable. I think at first you're kind of led to believe that the detective is supposed to be kind of a good guy, you know? Like, hey, I'm really trying to figure out what's going on here. not really sure and then yeah he goes like full bad yeah when the sheriffs kill
And I don't know his name. I don't know if we ever find out his name. The guy that has the tattooed stars on his nipples with the dog. Yes. Sad. Just as for him. Yeah. When they pull him out and the detective just lets him burn and like pulls his shoe back from the guy's grasp, he clearly needs help. And then he explodes into dust. I think at that point we're just like, yep.
He's a full bat. He's really not trying to help at this point. And he also does nearly nothing when he finds out that Cronenberg was like, he's got a gun and he gets Boone killed. The cop's just like, oh.
yeah i thought there was a gun and he's like well he was reaching his jacket and then the cop's like okay i think that's a really interesting thing too is like they do a really good job of like there are moments where the cops are so over the top they're almost comical like when they're planning the raid on midian and there's like the one kind of
slightly nerdy cop guy who's like explaining all the traps and things. And he's like almost getting off on it, which I think was totally intentional on Barker's part. And it's like, you know, it's horrific, but it's also kind of funny. But then like the scene you were just referencing where that.
particular member of the night breed is killed is just heartbreaking in its brutality so i think they balance that out well like really like not making the cops so over the top that you're like haha fiction is funny but you're like no actually it's pretty real yeah the one cop like taking the grot and like putting it on his lip like he's kissing it yeah it's gross so gross Especially because, like, okay, grenade launchers, high-powered rifles, fine. A Garotte?
Like for strangling people. Yeah. Not a thing that cops typically use in the normal course of tripwire and things like that. Yeah. Grotts like. specifically a serial killer thing yeah like I've never heard of somebody like I have a legitimate purpose for this crap right yeah not a thing speaking of things that are not how it works psychiatry and dr decker like i know
In this movie, he's a plot mover. He's trying to pin all of these murders on Boone and he was doing it successfully. And then Boone comes back and he's like dead set on, you know, getting him to be pinned on these new murders. murders and blah, blah, blah. Pretty sure that as a psychiatrist, you're not allowed to let somebody that you suspect of committing real murders out and away from you and away from your care.
Also, don't think that a psychiatrist is allowed to be present in lieu of a lawyer during a police questioning and then feeding her information. Pretty sure that's not how that works. It's a plot mover. He's not a legitimate. Like anybody seen this guy's license? Do we know? Yeah. Yeah. So in terms of Dr. Decker, this can get us into some of the queer themes of this movie. Alejandro Jodorowsky, the filmmaker, says that this is, quote, the first truly gay horror fantasy epic.
I would qualify that a little bit, I suppose. But he went on to say that he saw... an unconsummated relationship between Decker and Boone, which a lot of people disagree with. A lot of folks have since kind of refuted that statement in their writing about this film. Tyler Coates of The Decider said, Maybe, but if that's there, it's...
totally a red herring. You know, it's really just, you know, something to reel us in and the real substance of the film in terms of the queer context is Elsewhere's with the Nightbreed. So I was just curious, like, I've never sort of... seen that that subtext that Jodorowsky is citing like that there is an unrequited or unconsummated relationship between Decker and Boone I was just curious like did you see that at all if there is any subcontext there it might just be
through the lens of clive barker because he actually directed this movie yeah there are some scenes where you're like why is decker so close to him why isn't he wearing a shirt takes a shirt off kind of a lot yeah he does in the movie but like there's the scene when decker calls boone or i think boone calls decker actually he's just gotten out of the shower he's shirtless decker's like in his office you know like talking all low and calm
on his phone. So you could read into that scene. You could also read into the scene where Boone actually comes into his office and Decker presses the bottle of pills into his hand. He's like, take this. These will help. And I'll give you 24 hours. But I don't really see it as like an unrequited or unconsummated relationship so much as I see it as like an obsession.
Decker is just so obsessed with him, clearly because he, I mean, not to say that he can't also have gay relationships, but he goes on to have sex with Cheryl Ann, who is Laurie's like new friend that dies. To me. Decker is a psychopath. So I think he can have obsession. He can play act in terms of sexual relationships. But his sexual gratification comes from the act of murder versus like being with a person. Yeah. I think he.
can play act those things. But like, obviously, he, you know, thinks Cheryl Ann thinks that he's there, but I don't necessarily agree with the idea that there's an unrequited. love affair there yeah once again i think he's obsessed with him and i think that it can border on i guess the visual of it can border on homoerotic but i don't think that decker really less after Boone. I think he just wants him as the scapegoat. Yeah, wants to use him as a tool in his murder plot. Yeah, and you know...
It's funny to talk about this sort of like... and say like oh yeah we don't think that this is gay because you know only clive barker really knows and i've never read cabal which is the source material for this so i'm not sure i guess it's a short story but i'm not sure If it's intentionally like that, perhaps if we read that, we would get more context into it. I could see how it looks gay. Yeah. If you want to go that way.
But there's also some scenes where he's really close to Laurie. The scene where he's questioning, where he and the detective are questioning Laurie at the police station. He's like... this far apart in behind her and it's like why are you so close to her yeah you were just over there now why are you right here well you're being all creepy dude yeah i just think he's a creep
Yeah, I don't think that it's a sexual thing. Like, I also think too, you could also read into that as, you know, at the end of the movie when Boone kills Decker, and he like is impaled with that giant knife and he pulls Decker.
onto his knife and he's like one last dance and then he pushes him into the pit you could also like read some gay subcontext into that sure but I didn't see it as being like romantic at all no i didn't either or even like in a masochistic way i didn't even see it as like masochistic love like jodorowsky i'd love to know what you think about this but yeah also please release your dune movie
i watched that um jodorowsky's dune documentary and i was just like please please i just want to see it just one time just one time please There are other elements of this movie that are queer, though. Yeah. There is a big one, which I know we're going to get to. But there's also like little elements that I was like, this is very queer, I think. So after.
Boone has been on the phone with Decker he goes to work he works in underneath i guess he's a welder he's sweaty he's wearing like a jumpsuit but there's no shirt underneath he has bare chest cool laurie is standing there and she's wearing a very prominent leather skirt like we pan up from her feet and it's like leather skirt and I was like that's on purpose oh yeah also the leather glove treatment that the sheriff gives Boone in the jail cell like
The sheriff has been very like aggressive. And then he's like pulling on his leather gloves and beating. boon with his fists and then he lights a cigar and then later he calls the preacher or the priest that's there the f-slur yes and i think If you look at the way that he's dressed, the leather glove thing, him beating the crap out of Boone, the cigar, and then also that scene where he calls him the F slur. I think he's supposed to be like.
a leather like a butch leather like masochist and like not that we're gonna get him let him get away with using the f-slur but i think it was like he's I think there's some like repressed homosexuality. Yeah. And why he's so excited for the entire police department to have all of these weapons and just go ham on this other, you know. Yeah. Other community, I think is.
To me, like, and queer subtext of the Nightbreed aside, I think that was probably the bigger thing that stood out to me. And granted, we watched the director's cut, so like, who knows what the theatrical cut looked like, but... That's how I felt. Yeah, I definitely agree. I think the priest also has a really interesting sort of turn. You know, first of all, why are you bringing a priest along on your SWAT team raid?
Right, exactly. What are you even? But I think the story of the priest is really interesting because he starts off being pretty against this. Like he's along, but he's like... I don't know why we're doing this. They're not doing anything. I don't understand why we're here. I don't believe that they're harmful. And then he is kind of transformed both physically and mentally into this hateful being, this being that is both
of the Nightbreed, but is very against them. And I think that is really interesting too. And we don't get much more than that, just that we end with him vowing revenge on the Nightbreed and their god. But it's a very interesting just micro examination of sort of transformation from like passive allyship to. demonizing someone who may be of your own community because of trauma. That's an interesting point.
He is such an interesting character because you think he's just going to be a throwaway. Yeah. And he's like, oh, I have to see, you know. So he goes down into the tabernacle where Baphomet is and gets burned with acid in his face because he gets too close. Yeah. Can't get too close. Yeah. He's a very interesting dynamic character and his look is so cool too. He looks like the open-throated Cenobite from Hellraiser. Yeah.
So one thing to note, this is a good time to kind of toss this in, is that there was a comic book series based on Nightbreed. The first part of it... is an adaptation. So it's an adaptation of the film. It's a very well done adaptation.
But from there, the series goes on to then continue the story of the movie. Like, I feel like if they had – if this had been a success, you could have, you know, just like Hellraiser, seen them making sequels, you know, because they – said it right up you know Boone is cabal he is responsible for finding
a new home for the Nightbreed, you know, rebuilding Midian. There's this new villain. Well, that's exactly what the comic series does, is it focuses on the priest character as a villain who is tracking the Nightbreed as they are. you know sort of finding this home you know very biblical allegory here the displaced people are searching for their promised land and it kind of goes from there so if you're interested in that character you know and the sort of continuing
Journey of the Nightbreed, definitely check out that comic series. That's interesting. I have never read any Clive Barker. comics. Like I never read Hellraiser or anything like that. So I did read some of his fiction and it made me a little bit scared to be inside of his brain. But I would say that Nightbreed, while
in certain bits is gory. I definitely think it is a much more lighthearted, I guess I don't even really want to say lighthearted, but less like serious and masochistic. I mean, I'm not sure, you know.
what the source material is like but i would say in terms of the movie i was much less like shit at the end of it you know yeah because it deals with rough topics you know the nightbreed and the decimation of many different peoples and how they have to like keep running and basically protecting themselves and they're sort of outsiders and they operate outside of like
What I guess you could say is polite human activities. They do stuff that's kind of bad, like eat people sometimes or bite them when they shouldn't. It definitely has sort of a... I guess you could say a positively cheery resolution if you compare it to Hellraiser. Of course, yeah. It really does have like a... Like, okay, we have this renewed purpose. And, you know, yes, we've had lots of our comrades fallen and slain near us.
We're never going to be accepted by polite human society. However, we must persist. You know, like we have to, we just have to keep going. And Boone is there and he's the prophesied one. So we have to keep going. That, I would say, is a lot cheerier than, you know...
The parallel of Hellraiser, which is like everything's fucked. Right. Leviathan is coming. We are all screwed. Right. And nobody trusts you because you've been in a mental institution and, you know, etc. It ends on a more positive note. I won't say it's a happy end. but it ends on a more positive note than Hellraiser did before it.
Clive Barker is responsible for a lot of movies. He directed this one and Hellraiser and Lord of Illusion, but he also is responsible for movies like Midnight Meat Train, which... decidedly depressing ending. Although he didn't direct that one, but that's from one of his stories. Candyman, which has some big parallels to this movie.
For sure. Definitely a lot of big parallels. Candyman, also I would say a little bit more depressing ending. So he's responsible for a lot of stuff. A lot of, like, so varied. I love to watch a Stephen King movie. I don't necessarily like to read his books. I think he is a prolific author. Definitely one of the best of our time. I don't like to read his books because I am like, you know, this is a thousand pages and.
wow, I am so depressed afterwards. And I also didn't need to know about the entire history of this town, like from the dinosaurs. I don't need to know that. It's so funny because Stephen King is known for his long works and actually most of Clive Barker's works are novellas. Exactly. Or short stories. Short stories, like collections. Like the Hellbound Heart is really, really short. Yeah, it says Cabal. It's very thin. Yeah. And I think it's really interesting.
Not that either one is necessarily right or wrong or better or worse, that for Stephen King, building a world takes thousands of pages sometimes. And Clive Barker... can build an equally rich and intriguing and engaging world in so few pages. Yeah. And that's just fascinating, just the way that writers' brains work. Yeah, it is definitely. It's different.
and I like it yeah I love that Clive Barker's like hey everything fucking sucks yeah and everybody is terrible and they want the worst possible most painful sex and that's only what will satisfy them and stephen king's like So we're going to follow these children in Derry, Maine. It's always fucking Maine. It is always Maine. It cannot be anywhere but Maine. And we're going to follow them to do this thing. And it's going to get scary.
Yeah. And it's going to be about some childhood trauma. Yeah. And Clive Barker's like, yeah, put your needle fist up my butt. I would make that the title of the podcast, but I think we'll get flagged on Apple. Damn it, Apple. But like that, I would say that's. You know, if I had to give like a six word phrase to categorize Hellraiser, that would be what I would put it in. Oh my God. But Nightbreed's like...
find your community and save them. Absolutely. It doesn't have to do with fisting this time. This time. Yeah. Although like some pretty epic makeout scenes like in this one. Boone is like fully into Lori. He really wants her. I mean, he does resurrect her from the dead at the end of the movie. I will say, too, Hellraiser, I think, was 86. This one was 90.
I want to give Clive Barker his flowers for the evolution of his directing from Hellraiser to this one. Like, there's a couple of things that... I found very compelling in this movie. Boone laying dead in the field after he's been, you know, blown apart basically by the cops.
is basically like a Renaissance painting. Yeah. Like we get this very slow pan of, you know, Boone whose eyes are open. He's looking listlessly off in the distance. He's like framed in this way that makes him look like, you know, Adam.
in a michelangelo painting that's what i thought the ancient torture scene where we see like the history of the night breed fascinating yeah so cool I would like to see a comic or like a short film of just that of just like the history of the nightbreed I thought that was amazing
And speaking of paintings, the matte paintings that they use in this are actually really great. They are. I think that Lori moves through them very seamlessly when she's walking through the cemetery. I really like that. I also think that the shot of Boone... howling after Lori has killed herself on the hill where you kind of just get like a silhouette and there's all these like, you know, plains grasses that are like waving.
I thought that was like chef's kiss. Yeah. Such a good image right there. Even that very end scene where all the nightbreed are gathered in the barn. It's just it does look like a painting. Yeah. You know, just like a work of art where you have these like displaced.
people i think of you know some of the paintings of like you know paintings and photographs of you know people on ellis island or something like that just you know the portrayal of that like so much about the way it's shot and lit just Tells you everything you need to know about these people and their situation. Yeah, absolutely. Hellraiser is great. Don't get me wrong. I'm not like dissing Hellraiser. Absolutely not.
But I think that the evolution of his direction from that to this, it like shows in volumes. Yeah. I'm so glad that we get to watch. We have the privilege of watching the director's cut, because I think if we had watched a theatrical version, I might not be as like effusive of this, you know, like how great it is and how stunning it is visually.
The practical effects are great. You know, the Nightbreed are not just like Cenobite rehashes. Oh, no, not at all. You know, they're very different. They give more, I thought. They gave more like Star Trek aliens, like TNG slash DS9, like era aliens. In fact, I'm almost positive that there are several aliens in DS9.
And later seasons of TNG that probably got some inspiration from this movie. I would not be surprised. Yeah. Now, there are some darker creatures, too, like more Cenobite-esque, you know. But I think that... The creature design even is just so much more expansive. You could do so much more. And there are creatures that look like humans. Yeah. The guy that we just talked about who died.
Rachel looks like a regular human. It's very interesting how he's evolved from Hellraiser to this. There's a lot more practical effects, a lot less cgi like early cgi or early you know digital effects in this one i think even though this movie was not very highly rated i think that it's obvious to me that he had moved so far along
Yeah. In just those short four years. I think it's also interesting because, you know, the Cenobites kind of have to be one thing like variations on a singular theme like they are all different and it's fun when you're watching whether it's the newer version of hellraiser you're watching the sequels to see like
Who is the new Cenobite? You know, what are their characteristics going to be? But they're all still, you know what to expect with a Cenobite. You know, there's going to be leather. There are going to be, you know, pieces of skin sort of veiled back to... And human. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas the Nightbreed, I think because of the nature of... What they are and what they're meant to represent. I think diversity was very important, you know, because I think that.
If you're following the metaphor that Barker has set up with what the Nightbreed are, and the thing I find so cool about the Nightbreed in general is that... We know that Barker's metaphor was queer culture, but really you could apply the Nightbreed to any community of others. And I think that's a very beautiful thing about this film. Anybody who is part of a group that is other can kind of identify with the Nightbreed and can find some kinship in this movie.
But I love that diversity was essential, you know, to say that like, you know, whatever other community this is, they are labeled capital O other, but there's diversity among their ranks, you know, and they kind of find each other. Within their otherness, but they're all different and unique and have their own sort of individuality. Not only that, but they have to learn how to coexist. Right. Even, you know.
cannibals and those who are breaking the rules when they're not supposed to be I also found it very fascinating that in order to protect themselves Dirk says if you come here you have to eschew All human life. Yeah. You have to stay here.
to protect. And he also explains to Lori, when Lori comes, she's like, is that a threat? When he says, what's down there stays down there. She's like, is that a threat? And he's like, not to you, to us. And I thought that was so... powerful, like such a powerful statement for him to be like, listen, understand what you're trespassing on because we have this perfect little microcosm under this really cool old cemetery where all cool things are.
aka Buffy yes um there's this really cool like microcosm of people down here that we've saved and protected for you know hundreds of years at this point potentially eons we don't know exactly when it started But we've been protecting them all down here. And by you coming in, that is the singular threat to our community. Yeah. And you can do so much harm. She does. She does do the harm. Like, I mean, Boone was always probably going to like.
yeet himself outside and be like Lori he always was going to do that but we have to make out really hard wear that leather skirt I love it I have to hear you sing I don't know why he's like that But that's him. He's just launching himself up the stairs. A bit of a golden retriever. A bit. A little bit.
Even though he's like, wow, I murdered a lot of people. I like that they resolve that easily though. He's like, he lied. You're stupid. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, like, you know, Dirk's like, this is the singular threat to us is you. And now also Boone. I think that they give him a wide berth, though, because they know that he is like the prophesied one. Yeah. So they're like, oh, I guess you can ruin our. And I mean, he does get saddled with the ultimate. Like.
path slash punishment by Baphomet, like... you have to be me now and you have to find me and save me and save all these people and find a Numidian and you have this many dollars, which is zero. Yeah, yeah. Well, Baphomet says, you know, as part of his speech to Boone when he bestows the... mantle of cabal on him he says no home is forever you know and i think that that is also a very powerful statement you know that you can build this
this society and this place of protection but you know no home is permanent you know and not to get all cheesy about it the home is the friends you make along the way but you know the the idea of home cannot be rooted in a singular place or structure it has to be the sort of found family that you have created and you know that has to carry from place to place in order to survive
And I think to allowing an outsider to come inside and that being your downfall, like we have to be very careful with metaphors like that. Yeah. Because I think that in this particular movie.
It's easier to see why the night breed would not be accepted into humanity. Number one, because most of them have a sensitivity to sunlight. Yeah. Not all of them. Like Boone doesn't seem to have one. It's only some of them. But maybe it's like something you develop over time. You know, you're underground for. so long and then you can't tolerate the uv rays i think like me rachel kind of says yeah she says you know some of us
can be in the sun, others cannot. Some of us can, you know, change our form in this way, others can't. You know, again, sort of speaking to that sort of multifaceted diversity of the nightbreed. Yeah, but we have to be careful with metaphors that say we're only protected within our insular community. Yes. Because, yes, absolutely, you can find protection within there, but you can also... Make yourself so hard to the outside.
that you end up doing yourself a detriment. Especially if we take this as a parallel to humanity, because it would be really easy to be like, let's all just hole up in a big building and never let anybody else in. And then it's like, okay, cool.
But how do you grow? How does your group grow? Yeah. And I think they're very careful to toe that line with this movie. And I would also say with Candyman, because I think Laurie and Helen are very... parallel characters and it's interesting that they're women you know you have these women these white women you know like let's be clear clive barker forecasting here he's like white lady privilege go yeah yeah but you have these women
who are coming into spaces that are not theirs with good intention, I will say. You know, neither Laurie nor Helen comes, you know, in with the explicit intent to harm. But their presence and their privilege causes harm. And especially in this movie, we really see, and actually in Candyman 2, we see people trying to help them understand.
It's not that you're explicit. It's not that we're saying we don't like you. It's not that we're saying you're explicitly... not allowed here because we think you're bad and like you know let's not hurt the white lady's feelings let's try to explain it to her like again Barker's really keyed into something here but you know really trying to say We need you to understand that your presence here...
can either be a neutral presence or it can cause harm. And you have to understand the consequences of stepping into this space that is inherently not yours. And, you know, we see with both of them ways in which they help and harm. I would say Laurie kind of goes on this journey throughout this movie of... allyship and accomplice at certain points, but she still fucks up ultimately and sort of inserts herself in a way that is perhaps a little inappropriate at the end. but is also...
We hope, if we're taking the ending as being hopeful, going to ultimately help and contribute to the Nightbreed Society. But it is like a fine line that she's towing. Helen's journey kind of manifests a little differently in Candyman. that parallel is just so interesting of those two characters it really is and if we want to say the quiet part out loud like We do think that this movie, the like queer subtext here is found family. Yeah. And like found community and how, especially when you get.
When you are excluded purposefully by, quote unquote, polite society or by your family or, you know, whomever, being able to seek out and become tighter and more. you know, focused and protected within a community is sort of the message here. Absolutely. Because Boone is like, I'm a murderer. And then he goes to, you know, he trips too bad on LSD and he finds this guy who's like, oh, take me to mid.
Midian, there's a test. And the two of them do end up going to Midian, where Boone finds this family of people that he ends up having to lead into...
I don't want to say the promised land and get like too preachy because I don't think it has anything to do with that. Although there are some like biblical, you know, themes there. But he has to... you know, become the leader of this group of people that he's known for a very short period of time and has been tasked with this like immense burden of protecting them.
But he has a vested interest in doing so because they protected him. They brought him back to life. They helped him get his revenge. And although he's never going to be able to clear his name because, you know.
unnecessary at this point right he's never going back he gets to now have this purpose when he didn't really have one before he was sort of aimless like being played with by the psychiatrist and then being a person under rebar maybe a welder yeah a sweaty man underground and sort of having these dreams and visions that we're alluding to There is some purpose out there for you, you know, like sort of like having these dreams of Midian and the different people there and sort of.
understanding slash not understanding because of his you know psychiatric journey you know like oh i am meant for something more and i do have like my people are out there you know like my community is out there I just haven't.
figured out how to connect with them yet it's interesting too because he has a partner who's like very clearly head over for him and he also seems to care about her very greatly too and up until the end it's like where is there space there for her you know is there space for her in this world and she makes space for herself she creates some space yeah you know she kills herself so that she can be
put into this world you know hopefully she hopes that he will boon will you know resurrect her but which he does and we also hope that she helps with this purpose and is not just a distraction. Yeah. Because she totally could be. This is another interesting thing. You know, last two episodes ago, we talked about like, are these zombies or are these ghouls? Are the Nightbreed vampires?
I would say based on some other material I've read, no, because they don't all eat flesh, nor do they have to eat flesh. Okay. Yeah. I don't think so. They pass along the whole night brief thing through a bite, which is interesting. Because I don't think they all are like that. No, I don't think so. It just seems like the one guy with the cool quill dreads. did that to boone and then boone you know did that to laurie yeah and that's all that we ever see
So I wonder, can the priest guy make a bunch of baddie nightbreed dudes? Or is he not allowed to do that because he got turned by the acid? I don't know. That's a good question. I like a movie that doesn't explain all of the lore to you. Oh, me too. Because I feel like we would have just gotten beat over the head with it in this movie. Like, well, this guy got turned this way and this guy got turned this way. The very first Nightbreed was Count Blabbity Blah.
blah, blah, blah. And it's like, we don't need to know all of that no we know that they're not important many different nightbreed and that they procreate in different ways also because there's children like children that grow not like eternal you know claudia vampire children yeah it's like children that end up being adults and also we don't know if they're all immortal clearly they're they're not um impervious yeah you know they can be killed but we don't know if they live forever
I don't think so, because I think that was another part of Rachel's speech where she was like, some people are more susceptible to harm than others based on. sort of again sort of whatever their physical makeup is like some people have a better chance of surviving because they're stronger or faster or there's some kind of protection built into their body whereas others are very vulnerable yeah
What an interesting little world there. Yeah. And we don't need to know all of it. So we might get to know more about it. There is a. alleged television show in development oh okay um and michael doherty is allegedly involved has signed on and is working with clive barker on the show bible now it's gotten
delayed a couple of times because i feel like they were talking about this all the way back in 2020 and there have been several delays i as far as i know i was trying to do some research to see where they are it's still on the table, like it hasn't been canceled or anything. But we may at some point get a Nightbreed series that I'm guessing will be kind of akin to the new Derry series, the Welcome to Derry series, that just like fills out the world more.
perhaps continues the story again i don't know anything about it like whether it's supposed to be you know the like in the comics the nightbreed finding you know and establishing the new midian or if it's backstory or what they really have not given a lot away just that there may be a nightbreed show and michael doherty is working with clive barker on the show bible So interesting. Yeah. All right. Well, I hope that it ends up working out because I think, yeah, I think we could.
we could do with some more like epic fantasy horror i agree because it's been a while since we've had like really really a lot of the stuff that's being produced right now has been very gritty and realistic you know or it's been like straight up supernatural like this is a ghost that's going to harm people I love the conjuring I'm not dissing the conjuring yeah no no don't you know don't mistake my words here but
I think we haven't really had a lot of fantasy horror. No, not in a while. With this whole other world and these whole other people. It's just been like, this is a ghost. This is a possessed person.
This is a serial killer. Honestly, the closest thing I can think of, and I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but in terms of like an actual like... well-loved film series i would say because i people have tried this lately but it just hasn't gone well is underworld and even that to me is not fully fantasy because it's it's way more like urban fantasy and it's vampires and werewolves it's not complete you know a completely made up set of of beings or or monsters or whatever
That's the closest one I can think of. I would like to see a shift back to that. I feel like especially where we are with sort of people are figuring out how to.
balance out digital and practical effects these days like there's I feel like a space for it you know I googled it and I really am not seeing like a whole lot of things that I would consider to be like I don't even necessarily think Constantine is really a horror fantasy I although it definitely it like you know toes a line because it's it's also really an action movie i think more so than i think it's a horror movie yeah but
that's like the last one where i'm like yeah that's definitely like big fantasy yeah i mean there was i frankenstein that came out several years ago that you know really got slept on um yeah like crimson peak But that's like a ghost story, you know? I don't know. I'm struggling. I'm like trying to think like what is more gothic than fantasy. I'm thinking like what I'm thinking is like dark crystal, but horror.
pan's labyrinth yeah pan pan's labyrinth but like that's that's been a long time oh it has yeah pan's labyrinth was like oh six 05 or 06 yeah it's been a long time so like i would really like to see like good creature work not and not just creatures for like scares but like creatures who are characters who stay stick around
Yes. You know, main characters. So I don't know. As a Buffy stan, you know, I love Buffy. And there were multiple characters in Buffy that were long term characters who like wore face makeup and were creatures. And those were great. Like, I want more of that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I would like to see more, too, in general, just with.
the idea they they toyed with this a little bit in chilling adventures of sabrina until that show went off the rails uh all right i saw your shirt yeah i know i'm wearing god i'm wearing the shirt today um yeah rip the last couple seasons of that show that i I still watch religiously over and over again the first couple of seasons. But the idea of the sort of monsters.
Or the others, the outsiders being the good guys, you know, that sort of society writ large is actually the enemy. And they did that really well with Sabrina sort of inverting like, you know, the whole like. The Church of the Night and the false god thing and all of that I thought was very well done and very in the spirit of Nightbreed in certain regards in its storytelling, just not so much in its creature work. Yeah. I want another one.
Yeah. I just want... You should read the comics. You should definitely read the comics. Okay, I will. Two random thoughts. First one is I thought that the mask that Dr. Decker wore was giving The Collector. Oh, yeah. Although the collector doesn't have like button eyes. He does sort of have that like strange, you know, laced up.
burlap sack mask with like the crooked mouth yeah so i wonder if the creators of the collector another a very very much a slasher film yeah um unlike this one i think they maybe took some inspiration from that the button eyes were giving coralline and i bet uh I'm not even going to say his name. He who must not be named. Yeah. It took that influence from this. Probably. Because I think he's a Barker fan. That's fair. They're both British or whatever. Yeah. We don't like him. We don't talk.
Yeah. And then the last very random note, Susie Quatro was supposed to be in this. Yes. Yeah. She was in this and then she got cut like in her, you know, in the studios, you know.
undying wisdom she got cut yeah which is a bummer yeah i so i like semi love suzy quattro i wish that she had been in more stuff i grew up watching happy days with my grandma and suzy quattro played this character in happy days called leather tuscadero and i always thought she was so cool just like the fucking coolest yeah girl ever if you like google pictures of suzy quattro in the 60s and 70s or leather tuscadero when she was on happy days she was like the perfect
Yen to Fonzie's Yang oh yeah they were gonna be the couple yep and then she kind of like paired off of the show but she was my favorite and it would have been so cool to see her absolutely but she she wasn't she got cut so
Random fact. Yeah. Okay. So next time it'll be our last Pride Month. We actually have three Pride episodes this year because of how many Mondays are in June this year. But our last one, our big guy, our... this is a not only is it a 25th anniversary yes episode of this movie it also is gay as hell and i think it is so pertinent and timely that we're talking about it because there have been so many like dudes who
there's like this whole alpha male thing we're going to talk about this episode is probably going to be so long but we're talking about American Psycho yes I'm so excited I'm so excited this is one of those movies that is I can quote it front to back for better or worse. I've read the book. I've seen the movie. I'm terrified every time a conversation about a remake comes up because just no, please. It's like it is.
perfect as it is and I don't think they could ever make a remake that so perfectly encapsulates both the era it's portraying and the era in which it was made so just like yeah it's Oh, there's so much to say. Yeah. It's going to be like a billion. It's going to be a very long episode. Well, the movie is long.
Yeah. And we're going to have so much to talk about about it. I love this movie so much. The first time I watched it, I was like scared shitless. It still is terrifying to me. What's said, what's not said. Oh, the book fucked me up. Dude, I think like, you know, we just got to talk about how Clive Barker, you know, I'm scared to be inside his head. I'm more scared to be inside Brett Easton Ellis's head. Truly. Yeah. Like a thousand percent. Another gay off.
Another movie that we're doing that was written by a gay author. But yeah, I'm really excited to watch it. I haven't seen it in a long time. Oh, nice. You know, it's been probably a couple of years since I've seen it. I love, I dearly, dearly love this movie, which I fully accept what that says about me as a person. But I dearly love this movie. And I'm very, very, very excited to talk about it in its 25th anniversary. Yes, same.
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where people can find the show. I'm Juliet. And I'm Teresa. Until next time, stay scary.