![Wayne's World [5] - podcast episode cover](https://assets.metacast.app/images/episode/artwork/tmGHMxTM)
Hello, You are receiving a call from Whitewaya You an inmate at a correctional facility. Press one to consent to the delivery of a pre recorded message with information on how you can arrange to receive calls from your incarcerated loved one. Your cell phone location may be collected and possibly used for investigative purposes. You are now being transferred to securest Customer Care.
Thank you for colleague. Secured Technologies, the leading provider of inmate telephone services. You are receiving a call from an inmate and a correctional facility where we provide telephone service. Please spell out the letters of your first.
Name Payne okay, so is your first name name?
Please spell out the letters of your last name. Okay, so is your last name? Glimsing Yes. To access your account, you need to create a four digit security passcode. Thank you. You have successfully created a passcode. Please enter your five digit zip code. Thank you. One moment. Please to continue, press one. Your confirmation number is to.
Zero one name zero one one second one five four two zero seven one four nine five seven five nine Wow.
If you would like me to repeat that, press nine no. Your Advanced Connect account has been successfully opened. You can start receiving calls within an hour.
Goodbye, This conference is being recorded.
Everybody. Yeah, can you hear Wayne?
Oh yeah, dang, can you hear Wayne?
I can? Can you hear me?
Okay?
Okay?
Is this pain is your Yeah?
This is pain. That's my first name. We've got Payne, Wayne and Dwayne.
To tell it. My way to me is not really was important because my way is the right way, and it's the truth about what happened. You know, were to me? You know, let the butt fall where it may, you know, wherever, because there's only one true truth is truth, you know, And and all this I guess fake as we say as we hear all this stuff. You know, I'm not into that either. And the truth in this case is
really simple. It's not complex or anything, but it's just it's the truth that people may not want to hear, and it's the truth that they have to hear to
understand what happened. And it continues to happen. Now, let me give you just a little so and by the way, if time goes, we have to come up and call it because I'll explain to you as we go to mechanics and how we got to communicate it all because it's kind of weird here, you know, so, so basically what we're what we were looking for from a documentary point of view, there's a multi cart thing to tell the story. You can't tell it in sixty minutes, like
you not both know it's not important. In other words, people don't need to hear and see what that's not what's important. These other people have a story to tell. They're gonna tell my story for me. That's what I'm saying. You understand what I'm getting that you're gonna you will fully understand once we get into this. Because one thing
about prison, you can't fool these guys a year. If these people thought I killed somebody had done something like that, I'd have been dead the first day I get the county jail. Are you understanding me? I'm in a close security prison and a dog with eighty other inmates. Shank's now all that floating around. You got crips, bloods, geed, all kinds of games here, and I got down good relations with all of them. If they thought that, I
wouldn't be you know, you understanding what I'm saying. This is the reality that you're gonna get to telling his story.
Man.
You know you can't fool con If they can smell it, they can smell a w rec if there's a wreck. You know, it's almost like a dog. You know, a dog knows an evil person for the good. They'll start growling, you know, so so you know it'll come out. This isn't about Wayne, This isn't just about me. This is for all those families who never got justice of all these years. They deserve some answers because I'm in a
prison now with two family members. I'm here with the uncle and a cousin of two of the murder victors. We play ball every day together. If you understand what I'm saying, we need to tell this to I'll see that hurt and pain they've shared. We have shared things. There's a bond right there that needs to be told. Family members. We're in contact will They have given us information and at least eight of the cases they know who killed the people, but the police refused to act on.
These are the things that we need to bring out in these documentaries.
I've heard from the FBI, the APD, and victims' families. Now it's time to hear from Wayne. I asked Wayne what he wanted to say, What did he personally want to put out to the world.
My thing is put the facts out and and speak for yourself. We don't need to doctor it up. Just just put it out there. And when we explain, like things like the bridge so called bridge incident, what did and did not happen, Like Dwayne and I have talked to, it'll make sense now once we can go through you hear it all. You an't going to believe it. It's incredible. Also in the podcast. In other words, there's another component
on this. I have been doing a lot of work with the younger generation, in particular the music Committee community to getting them involved. Okay, one of which, by the way, is my Salemate. He's a twenty one year old kid who grew up in everything. He's a writer, not only a rap star, but he's very intelligent. He actually wrote that the name of my life story is called Shadow Drinks.
He actually wrote the theme song for that, and I want to include in the podcast through doing some of his writings and all comments on the social comments thereity. You know, that's another way of telling it reaching the younger audience. So with you and the reason why. This is somebody and you may find this incredible, but this is somebody who lives with me twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. We're on the same referee. He knows me probably better than my own family at this point.
And if you want to know what Oney Williams is really right, Anthonyspense is the person you ask you understand what I'm saying. And the other part I'm asking you to do, like I said, is on a young man I want to launch as recording artist, Anthony Spencer. Let me first give you thank.
You, producing securists.
Goodbye this old time.
He gonna call back in like thirty seconds.
I was pretty surprised. Did Wayne have an artist?
He was trying to manage from prison, another young black male like Jimmy.
But this time the artist wasn't sell me.
From what I could tell, Wayne was doing in prison exactly what he was doing in Atlanta in the nineteen eighties, being a talent scout.
Okay, we're back, Okay, But like I said, that's my roommate and he's gonna you know, I really want to tell in music his words about as a young kid just hearing about this about getting that story out to the young people. Understand what I'm saying. That's a powerful way. As a matter of fact, what I want you to do. I want you to just introduce yourself briefly to him like here here he is right now, just telling me who you are with what we're going to be doing.
Just very but hereious, how you doing?
Saying how you doing?
Like wise? Likewise? Uh, well, like Wayne was saying, my name is Anthony Spencer, and upon me. You know, I just started like really becoming aware of everything that's going on, been going on for some time, and it was really like hell being removed from my eyes. And I'm I've just been doing a lot of writing, scene writing on those types of things. Oh yeah, I'm working on something like specifically for.
This, and I'm I have it done.
Like I'm having done as soon as possible, like no later than tomorrow, like I have been.
Here's one okay, Yeah, he keeps me level here, excuse me little.
This was almost unbelievable to me. Had Wayne tried to promote fellow inmates as artists before or was this the first time? And how exactly could someone develop a music career from prison. Anthony sounded like a young, eager and anyable guy and above all, he sounded excited to send me his music inspired by Wayne's story.
This is somebody who knows me better than anybody, and we need to put him out there because the public relations are trying to reach the age group over where. You meet this guy and his family, you will understand we need to put him out there. Get with Dwayne, get with his mother, and we want to go ahead and we want to put him as that invest in land him out there. It's not just an artist, but a commentary and basically he's got his own story to telling you. Probably in He's got the type of story
to end up a lifetime by himself. And in the day time, Kayne, get in touch touch with Miss Spencer's mom. She's in Atlanta.
I'm gonna call first, I'm gonna call Anthony's ma and then tell.
Her that I'm gonna be given her giving you her information.
These phone calls with Wayne and Dwayne took a lot of coordinating the prison email system, phone protocol, and of course our schedules. It took multiple calls before I began meeting anyone out side of the prison. I asked Wayne why he thought he was in jail today. Some people I talked to seemed to think he was a scapegoat and that maybe this whole thing was orchestrated. Dwayne Hendrix went as far as to say it was a full fledged conspiracy. But I wanted to hear what Wayne thought.
You get me clear? That was not, and never was a conspiracy to get me before the factors. Nobody knew the route I was gonna take that night of May twenty second, regard, not even me. I am a Gemini.
Gemini, there's that word again, the band that Wayne was developing in the late seventies. Now, Wayne was using it as his astrological inspiration for how he lived his life, including that faithful night on the Jackson Bridge. Gemini is symbolized by twins, dual personality, volatility, and a tendency to switch up routines.
Okay, by birth, I'm a Gemini. That was a last minute decision I made because I'm the type of person I'm liable to change my mind in a heartbeat or when I like drive, getting in the car and just going You understand what I'm saying. I'm a free spirit that was a decision I made. The only conspiracy that came in was once my name hit those FBI computers
and it got to Washington. That's when they panicked because they had a ran contract going and because two people in government knew of my background working for the agency and they were afred to ever the expose that the state. Lewis Slayton didn't even want to prosecute me. They had a mine held on June the twentieth, the Sunday before excuse me before, in which George Bush personally come down
and threaten them. They say, if you don't arrest Wayne Williams, the Fans will take this case and prosecute it as a civil rights violation. Slaton didn't even want to prosecute this case. I am nothing above the Atlanta and Bulton County and Georgia. My enemy is the federal government still is. It is not those people if it was up to let me tell you something. The sheriff a fort in the county when I was at Fulton County jail before I went to trial, but I had my record, lot
of people thatsn't healed behind o jail. I used to go out with one deputy who didn't even have a gun. We used to go out there across the street from the jail and go to the store. Now, if that's how much they were concerned, and they say, you know, we ain't worried about this. Are you understanding what I'm trying to tell you? But a person does a crime
and the public doesn't understand it, say a burglary. If you do one burglar in a neighborhood and they've had twenty burglers in the neighborhood, they don't give a damn. You're gonna wear all of those cases so they can close the books. Because prosecutors in Georgia are elected officials. They are not appointed, they're elected, and that's one of the biggest flaws in the criminal justice system. They go on votes. It's about closing cases. Bottom line. Who whatever suspect they came up with.
The you have one that left.
That's the way it works. It was simple a matter of rector keeping close the cases to make it look good. Over ninety percent of the black community knows I didn't do this and things. I'm medicine.
But and with the.
White community is just the opposite. It's only you know, fifty percent of the white community because of articles like CNN and what you have. It's a racially polarized perspective. And the sad part about it is these white communities find my language, don't know diddly shit about what happened. The ones who are telling you I didn't do this are the ones who know. But you know, it's just like the thing going on with the police killers today,
and there's things in the stadium. In other words, oh fat, they won't air about. Well, let's just play about that. Isn't the point. The point is part of my language just lack in my case. If those athletes have been just any other person other than an athlete, part of my language paying but you're gonna hear this, they would be just another nigga to anybody else. That's the same
thing in this case. Are you understanding the relationships? Why we have to tell it like this because the black community has a different perspective on the Atlanta murders than the white community, totally different, because they know and they feel that their community had been slighted by the white community who was more conservative just throwing money in this and having press conferences. That's the whole hurt.
The caller has hung up.
Wayne talked rapidly during our conversation. Maybe it was a habit formed from having to maximize time while using the prison phone system, or maybe it's just Wayne. Some of what he was saying directly reflected the opinions of people like Monica Pearson and Colinda Lee. These murders were not handled properly in the eyes of much of the black community. However, what he said about press conferences was a little conflicting. Didn't Wayne rally his own press conference at his house?
If he was so opposed to sensationalizing the news, why would he have done that. The next thing Wayne brought up was his attorney, Lynn Whatley.
Well, next conference call, we're gonna have to involve the attorney Lynn. And I want to tell your point blank. I don't use this language, but he's an asshole, okay to deal with, but he's an essential asshole to tell the story because he's been burnt so many times. I don't think people understand what Land's problem is, why he doesn't return calls. And that's when fury is Dwayne, and you know I've been through it myself. When if we've been through not but let me tell you something. Lynn
has done everything legally correct. He's been throopped every step of the way by the courts and prosecutory of his conduct. You're gonna find out what his frustration is in the case because of a connection with to Dwayne, and I'll get it to you will be later on it. He's not afraid of anything, but it has to do with some of his family. You'll understand as you talk on that.
But the main thing is Lynn will be able to make available for you things like the court transcripts, and he'll be able to tell you what went on behind the scenes. You know, he'll be able to tell you what the Supreme Court justice told us before he died, about the call he got from the Vice President of the United States, you know, during the during the ovision
of Georgia Supreme Court thing. He'll be able to tell you what happened on the DNA test and when they went back in two thousand and nine to test the two blood samples we had and then went back into State the very next day of the state crime and left say oh we lost that overnight. You'll get all of that. Go ahead and pay that man a visit. Don't wait on me because he's heard or you we talked about it. But you know what Lynn is, go ahead and see him. But like I say, don't get
frustrated with him when he talks crazy. Talk crazy right back.
To thank you for using secure us, goodbye.
In a matter of just a few minutes, Winnie made some pretty big claims about this case, from involvement from the vice president to lost evidence. I had to talk to his attorney, Lynn Wattley.
Hello, this is Lynn Whitely. Please leave your message. Tell thank you.
At the tell him please record your message.
When you finished recording, you may hang up or press.
One for options.
No matter how many times I tried to call Wayne's attorney, Lynn Wattley, I never got an answer.
Finally, he responded.
To one of my texts and told me he was completely busy for the foreseeable future. Wayne said he would talk to me and that he would provide me with all the information I needed to see his side of the story clearly, but apparently Lynn didn't have the time to talk. In fact, he seemed to be actively avoiding me. The next person I contacted for Wayne's request was Tracy
Anthony Spencer's mom, Wayne's sellmate. I wanted to know more about the person Wayne's been living with the past few years, especially given how Holly Wayne spoke of him.
Anthony Spencer. He is my oldest son. He's been a good kid all his life, never in any trouble in school, not a reprimand or anything. Everybody loves Anthony, miss goodness, his heart and he's a good person. And when the incident happened and he went to jail, everyone was in disbelief. So I said, okay, you know, and let me have a fish fry. Let me try to raise some money to do something, maybe a.
Lawyer, you know.
So I want to bot all his fish and I sold six hundred dollars worth of fish in two hours.
That's a lot of fish.
That's a lot of fish. But they came to support him. You know, he's a really good person.
Some of his.
Friends had planned an armed robbery, a robbery to rob the Chinese delivery man.
From what his mom told me, Anthony was likely at the wrong place at the wrong time. He wasn't part of the plan, but he was there. Besides that, I knew very few details about the incident, but.
The judge said at the end of the trial that he didn't want a sentence Anthony to ten years. He knew that he didn't deserve that judge kill and it was I felt that it was heartfelt, you know. He didn't want to do that, but he said by law he had to. He had no choice.
Anthony's in tail Fair prison.
He started off and Waycross and then he went to Valdosta and now he's in tail Fair. Anthony has been in prison this summer seven years.
How's that been?
It's rough. I have a ten year old.
And Anthony spends so much time with him, and it hurts me to see them hurt, you know, cause they they missed.
There, but they're simply you know. Yeah, it's rough.
You know.
I feel like he should be out here l l. He made a mistake, but he should be out here to live with his life. He doesn't know how to drive, you know, I don't even know if he's ever even had sex, you know, I you know, nothing, He hasn't n hasn't even.
Begin to live his life.
You know.
Anthony does the newsletter in prison, and since he's been at Telfair, he met him Lane, and I think that helps to have someone that you can communicate with that's there and that really understands what's going on, opposed to me really understanding what prison life is like. You know, when Anthony first emailed me and told me that he met Wayne Williams, I was.
Like, wow, why.
Stay away him? Do you know where that is? He was like yeah, ma, I said, boy, that is the Jews, and.
I'm a child martyr.
I said, now, I don't think he killed them kids, but I don't know what Wayne be doing.
Stay away from his.
Ass, you know exactly what I don't. And he was like kind of distraught, you know, like, and then he kept coming at me with it, well, this person is going to call you, and this person is this person gonna call you? And I'm looking at the email like whatever, you know, recently, probably about a month or so ago, you know, and I could just hear in his voice how much his attitude and his spirit had lifted, you know, And I started listening to him. I said, this really
means something to him. You know, I can't tell him what to believe and what to think. That's only for me to do for myself. Wayne, to me, sounds like he gives him good advice. And I just hope their relationship is is a good relationship.
You know.
Like I said, I don't know too much about Wayne personally, but I spoke with Wayne a few weeks ago and I was.
Like, huh Wayne waalms.
So I called my daughter, I say, guess what.
I just got the phone Wayne Wams.
Oh my god.
You know.
She was like what.
Mom.
I was like, yes, I was like, I can't believe this.
Call all my sisters.
It was like meeting. It was He's you know, I mean, it's like that was something that's deep, you know. And I'm not into celebrities, you know, I'm just not, you know, because they don't do nothing for me. So, you know, but to actually speak to Wayne Williams, and I know from doing a little research that I've done on him, and you know, which didn't tell me too much.
He's a very.
Intelligent guy, very intelligent.
I was just excited.
You said he was a like an icon, right, Yeah, what do you think he represents?
I don't know exactly what he represents. He represents hisself, you know, And I know he's been advocating to get out of there, you know, and like everyone else, he just wants to live his life but he's I think he's a good person.
Think he probably was just a scapegoat.
And he seemed kind of weird, you know, from when I look at the films and stuff back in the day, like, you know, a little nerdy type, you know. But he was smart, smart. I know, he was into electronics and radio, you know. But it seemed like he kept to himself back then.
You know.
It's sad, But I don't know. I really don't know what he represents. I don't know what he represents. I just talked to him. That was that brief five minute conversation. He just told me call me, address me Ms McCain and told me who he was. And then he proceeded to talk about Anthony and how bright and intelligence he really thinks he is, and.
He's talented, you know.
He told me how talented he is, and he said he has his lawyer helping with Anthony's case, and he said he didn't want anything, He just wanted us to advocate, you know, for him.
In what way.
I'm assuming, like his story or whatever he's trying to convey to the outside world, that he wants us to grab a hold of that and help convey the message because everybody doesn't listen to podcasts. Like I said, I never didn't even know what a podcast was, you know, And that's all he asks in a return.
As a mother.
Is there any part of you that has any sort of fear or sense of uneasiness that Anthony cellmate was accused of doing something like that?
I don't think, because I know I don't think he does he did anything. My fear was for like five years, was that something would happen to my.
Son, you know, person inside prison.
That was my biggest fear. Yeah, you know, I just pray for him, you know, and he comes out of this thing unscathed and in his right mind, you know, to be become productive citizen outside those walls, you know. And now I'm just like I'm smiling every day because I know it's now we're on count down.
You know.
I'm just ready for my son to get busy, get to work, live its life, find a nice lady, get married, have me some grand babies. You know, Hey, what more could you ask for?
You know?
And I can fatten them up and feed them everything and bake them everything.
You know.
I was ready for him to come.
Home, of course.
Tracy isn't the only one who's unsure about Wayne's conviction. After meeting Tracy, I spoke to another family member of a victim, Jeffrey Mathews's cousin Mel. Growing up, Nell saw first hand what Jeffrey's murder did to his family emotionally, and he told me his entire family doubts they'll ever get closure.
Jeffrey, you know, he was a very good kid. He was very you know, mantable, smart. You know, he was you know, playful, like to go to the you know, the stores and stuff and you know, make pocket mining and stuff.
But he was a very good kid.
And the night he went missing, his mother sent him to the store to run in for her, and he was taking so long to come back, so she sent his oldest brothers go look.
For him, and he never did return, and.
It was over eleven months before they found him.
What does your family think about what happened to him?
The only thing we know is he just he back in, you know, in ninety eighty he went to the store and he never did return, So far as us ever knowing what really happened to him, probably never let to know.
Do you think Wade lives wolves and his murdered.
No, I never do think that. What well, I cauldn't really see him as really being any one that hurt anybody. He was just too much of like an intelligent, wiz kind of like guy, and he wanted to be like known into the media and you know, kind of like a big entrepreneur guy. And I just can't see him even hurting anybody. He just didn't look that energetic enough to me.
He didn't.
But I don't know.
If he is.
Guilty of some of the murders, you know, I would I would just you know, hope for them to just say, well, we're gonna just go after him for those and then bring the right other killers to justice for the Recipe cases and just properly prosecute them. My family has been through you know, hell like chaotic miss you know, not knowing what happened.
If we don't know.
Anything, they had, they had to get it over with, They had to get it over with, and it was just like when they solve the case, it's like the world to stop listening. But we just really want to know what happened and why that's about it, just want to just get.
Closure and what's good.
Take.
Well, it's gonna take the right people at the right time to come along and say, well, let me try to right this wrong. Just get these get these families closed because they need it.
If there are so many people like mel and Anthony's mom who aren't convinced of Wayne's guilt and the only evidence of his involvement was trace fiber evidence, how was he in jail? Well, the FBI profilers played a huge part in that. At the time of the Atlanta child murders, FBI profiling was a pretty new practice. I asked Macomas and Popcorn for more detail about the profile that was made prior to Wayne Williams arrest, and I have to admit it was eerily accurate.
Our profilers, and John Douglas being one of them, had given us twenty one points that we could look for that this guy would resemble, and one of them was is that he would be very conscious of the news media. And also John said he would be driving a white car, which he was. He said he'd be an only child, which he was. I think out of the twenty one out of the twenty one points he hit about twenty
of them. It was spooky. Yeah, it's an amazing science, which I've never understood, but we had two guys that were the best in the world at that time at it. In my layman's I think is a social path. I think he exhibits all the characteristics.
Based on the profile. Basically is going to be a blackmail released from prison, arrested for a minor traffic infraction, impersonated at a police officer. And we got a list of three thousand names, and damn if Wayne Williams's name wasn't on that list, we eventually would have sent two agents out to interview him. Wayne was on that list because he had been arrested for, of all things, in personing a police officer who were expecting a guy with one eye in the middle of his forehead and horns,
who expecting the devil himself? And what he got was who is this guy?
Small?
Not very threatening at all. Who is this guy? That's Wayne Williams. Get him out of here, Get him the hell out of here. He's not the killer because he comes across as a nerd.
Let's refer back to Jasper and Eric Cameron. They grew up in West Atlanta during the nineteen eighties. What did they think when Wayne Williams turned out to be the boogeyman.
According to the News, he's.
Like the picture to post a child for the Atlanta Missing the murder kids. You get what I'm saying now, Like that's when they said that mister murderschers. First thing think about Wayne Williams. That was the bigger man of Atlanta. Like they show us this picture him, and you know how we be judge Midler.
You know, he looked like yeah, you know, he had.
The glasses and yeah, he looked like he could do some shit like that, you know, you know how people be judgemental, you know, really, but you know, it was I mean, it was kind of hard to believe.
Honestly.
I think he could have done some things, but I don't think he killed all those kids.
You know.
My whole thing was.
At the time, it was like a lot of racial stuff going on, and I think at the time they didn't want it to be something that would separate the city racially. You know, they didn't want it to be you know, they didn't want to find out it was some white guys or the Klan or something. You know, they didn't want that because they knew what it will happen.
Kind of like what was going on there with the thing like divisive? Yeah, like you know that divide people. You could bring in confusion and really could tell part every thing we like, the police say he did it, he did it.
You know you believe the police. I mean, at least you want to believe the police.
Back then, though, you look at the police officers, ask your safety net. You know, some people had bad experiences with cop before. The most part, you look at police as like they here to protect and look out for us, to make sure we're okay.
The day.
To be honest with you, it is so much information, good or bad that how can I say this not it's always a beautiful thing. But sometimes with everything being so open, I don't know if that's good because it desensitized people way it is now, man, the world just so desensitized. Man, Like you'll get more intention now from going to somebody taping the recorder slapping them on the street than really helping them.
Back in the day. You see something happening, you will help. Now. The first thing you hear somebody world star. You know it's not for real.
It's like shit going on to somebody holling world star, Like really now you don't look at the police.
It's saying like if people don't look at them, to say look.
At and for whatever reason, you know, it's kind of like you kind of if the police you be like, I don't know, you know, I can't really let me see.
Let's look at the evidence.
Yeah, you know, let's dissect the evidence. You know, everybody a forensic scientists, all these shows on TV now and all this, Let's check the evidence.
I began asking Wayne for some hard evidence.
I needed names, stories and leads to follow up on or else I couldn't even tell the story he was painting for me.
Jasper and Eric were right in times.
Of doubt, you have to go back to the evidence, and unfortunately, there's not too much to go off of in this case. But Wayne promised me that he had big things to share, things that would shake the foundation of his conviction.
You're gonna get to hear from Sidney Dorsey, who was an ex He was the person responsible men putting me in prison. Now he wants to tell the story about the witnesses he paid and why he did what he did. I'm not in the theories. I'm in the facts and what I'm saying, is there some facts that we have from an investigative point of view, from their side of
the case, that have never been revealo publicly. These are the types of things that I want to put out and let people come to their own conclusion of You're gonna hear from a number of people who were involved in this case who didn't necessarily come forward, and they'll explain.
To you their reasons.
And on this, you're gonna have a mundands of people that are going to say, Okay, well, let me show you this. You know that's what's gonna happen, and you're gonna find out all of what happened behind the scenes on this. It'll be one of the biggest stories you've ever done. I promise you that once you hear that story, you're gonna say, oh my god, you're gonna really understand this story.
But it was hard to get the details out of them.
You're gonna find out about all of that. You're gonna get all of them. You're gonna get all of them. You're gonna get that, We're gonna get all of that for you. You're gonna get the whole deal. All of this is gonna open up You're gonna have more than enough background on that. I'm gonna definitely talk about that. Y'all gonna believe it is incredible. These are things that you're gonna learn as we talk all of that. You're gonna get all of that. You're gonna get all of
the Trust me, You're gonna get all of it. You're gonna you're gonna get a hold of you. You've got a lot to talk about, man, So believe you're gonna get it all. You're gonna get that. You're you're gonna get all of that. Don't don't worry about it. That's gonna come.
Over time.
I picked up on some of Wayne's stories and began looking into them. The next thing Wayne brought up was physical evidence that linked some of the victims to other suspicious groups.
Oh well, I think it's several thousand fingerprints that they took in this case. There's not a single finger print if the victims. Hey, if you were saying twenty thirty, I don't have a many it was, we don't even know. If you were saying these folks had association with Wayne Williams and his environment, sure that would have been some forensic governance a fingerprint for some of the victims in a house car or some of my nothing. You understand
what I'm saying. This was a true witch hunt. So and we want to attack the witnesses that lied and why they lied under this right here, because they were trying to get a half million dollar reward.
Wayne seemed to be right about this the fiber evidence.
At least.
A Washington Post article from nineteen eighty two quotes crime lab microanalyst Larry Peterson, who worked this case and stood behind the fiber evidence. He's quoted saying, we didn't have any bullets or fingerprints, only what we got off the bodies.
Hey, you've got groups of killings. Some of them were unrelated to others. They just happened to the same time. You've got six or eight pieces that we know that white supremacists were involved, and we know this for a fact, including certain there are certain physical evidence Caucasian fibers you never heard about. We know for a fact in six of those murders. We know this for a fact based not just on their assumption, but based on the physical
and biological evidence to finding a Caucasian fibers. In addition to witness Deneverans on the scientific evidence. We know this for a fact, but I don't want it to be put out. Whether KKK put out at lad murders. Oh no, no, no, no, no, we don't understand. We know they did six.
According to FBI records, two Caucasian head fibers were found on the body of Charles Stevens, but it didn't seem to be a recurring pattern from what I could find at least. And then Wayne brought up a homosexual ring.
We know that another six cases were involved in a homosexual ring going on in Atlanta, Black homosexual ring.
It's been learned that investigators have now found this man, Tom Terrell and questioned him today about his role in some type of homosexual ring operated out of this home in northwest Atlanta. That ring apparently involved the latest child victim, Timothy Hill, and through recent findings, may have linked together several other children on the task Force list.
I read about this man, Tom Terrell in my research, and he did seem like a pretty suspicious and potentially dangerous man. Tom Yrrell owned two houses on Gray Street, one that may have been a haven for pedophiles and sex offenders, and one that was his place of residence. A witness said that Heat had sex with one of the Atlanta child murder victims, Timothy Hill, at one of Tom Tyrrell's houses on Gray Street. He also claimed to have seen at least ten other victims at the same house.
Terrell knows this man, Larry Marshall, now in a Connecticut jail on armed robbery charges.
Marshall is believed to have known at least three of the victims, Patrick Biltazar, Timothy Hill, and Joseph Bell, who was still missing before his arrest. Marshall shared a house in West Atlanta with this man, Jerry Thornton. Thornton says police showed him pictures of the child victims and he recognized ten of them, and Marshall is an.
Acquaintance of Tom Terrell.
Terrell lives in this house on Gray Street, Northwest, where several of the victims are said to have spent some time. The house has also been linked to an alleged sex for a higher ring involving young boys. Police have been watching the house and investigators have talked to Terrell a number of times so far.
Though no one revolving around this homosexual ring has been arrested.
As a suspect.
It's not known what Tom Terrell has told police or just how helpful Larry Marshall might be if he decides to cooperate, but even investigators who are skeptical about Marshall's possible contributions to the case say this sex ring is an important investigative theory certainly worth following up.
These are members of gay dignity homosexuals who don't like what the media has been reporting the last few days. Those reports center around a possible sex ring that includes homosexual mens, one of them being Marshall. Investigators know Marshal knew Timothy Hill and possibly other boys on the task force list. Hill and the others hung out here in
a northwest Atlanta home owned by and admitted homosexual. Although there is no hard evidence, the task force is looking into the possibility that some type of sex ring may be involved in the killings. These gays think the word homosexual has been used too.
Much, you know.
They reemphasize homosexual in every adjective or nouns in most cases when they're talking about this incident, rather than just speaking of the word sexual as I stated earlier. In many cases when there's rape and so involved. The headlines do not read heterosexual man. It reads sexual assault or something like that, but it does not read heterosexual. And
the word black. You know, another comparison, when it's a person who is a criminal, they don't refer to the person as a black man, or a Yellow man or a Chinese man. They refer to him as a man.
The gays already think they are stereotyped and that the latest theory involving homosexuals will do nothing to help the problem. They're afraid that if it is a homosexual committing the crimes, then they all will be condemned, not just the one person. They have now offered to help the task force in any way hoping to stop the implications.
Clearly, homophobia continues to be rampant. People are not necessarily speaking candidly and freely about gay identity. There is a lot of incredibly inappropriate conflation with gayness and predatory behavior,
and particularly with gayness and predatory behavior towards children. So you know, it's not a distant step for people who are thinking in that way to think, well, certainly somebody who's gay would be somebody who might be a danger to children and et cetera, et cetera, etc. Although there's clearly no real evidence for such a connection, and so that clearly seems to have had a role to play in how people were thinking, first of all, about the murders,
thinking about that children, thinking about the taboo around, talking about how some of the children were assaulted not just because of a kind of respect for victims, but also because of a sense of soiling of tainted nests, because of any kind of connection with homosexual activity. So like all of that was a part of that conversation. And then you have these murders, clearly of young black gay men.
Whether it's part of this pattern or a separate issue, it's hard for me to understand how the murders of these fully adult, albeit young men feel the same as the murders of six and eight nine year olds. But all of that serves together to further marginalize, vilify, shroud in secrecy and taboo, and taint the victims and to stomachs the ultimately the man who's accused of the murders.
During that time period, we were not looking at child trafficking the way we are now. We didn't talk about child prostitution back then. And how children could have been picked up and used for illicit means. During that time, very homophobic time too. People could not accept people for who they were, and every person who was a homosexual was considered to be a pedophile, which is not true. It was so disheartening to see that negativity that also was pointed at.
The gay community. But that was the time.
Thanks be to God, we have grown, but that was really very frightening. That was never looked into, as far as I know by law enforcement sex trafficking, not homosexuality.
But sex trafficking.
So you know, did they look into known pedophile. I mean, it could have been a pedophile who did.
This, no matter how you slice it. Wayne became a suspect. The night he was stopping the bridge.
We had two people under both sides of the bridge, police cadets, and of course we kept him hitting out and then in close proximity we had a chase car on each side of the bridge, and they too blended in so that they couldn't be seen. In about two or three in the morning, they heard a huge splash woke.
Up the two guys underneath the bridge, one of them who was a high school swimmer. He said, that's a body hitting the water. And he looks up and he radios his friend across the bridge. Is there a car on the bridge.
And there was only one vehicle on that bridge.
The guy says, yeah, it's starting to move slowly.
The car appeared to be just starting up again like it had been stopped, and it was going two or three miles an hour. Then across the bridge circled around I think a convenience store.
Pulls around right in front of a police car, hiding in the bushes, and goes back up the highway to a two eighty five will. They chased him down and as soon.
As he pulled off, that's when our cars tagged him.
They got him.
There's a lot of ambiguity about what actually happened that night, so I asked Wayne for his account the officer's Wayne mentions in his account our agent Greg Gilliland of the FBI two rookie Atlanta police recruits, Officer Bob Campbell and Officer Freddie Jacobs, and Atlanta police veteran Carl Holden. Allegedly the recruit, officer Campbell was stationed under the bridge and officer Jacobs was stationed on the bridge. And Holden was
in his car at a nearby liquor store. The James Jackson Parkway bridge connects two counties, Fulton County and Cobb County, and apparently at the time of the incident, there was a liquor store on the Fulton County side South Cobb Parkway. The route Wayne was apparently taking that night goes over the Chattahoochee River. The Chattahoochee, of course, is where bodies have been showing up.
I hadn't even gone to sleep. I had been up all day feeling the pictures an kid time. I was coming from a trying to find an address off the touth coff Promptly it turned out to be a fake address, and one of the auditions we had back quite often
then address was no Goods house. Returning home, and as I came home, like I said, I went south on South Corosk promptly across the bridge and across the bridge, I turned into that gravel parking lot to my right, briefly turned you know, turn on the lights, look number. Turned back on the road pro seated about a quarter of a mile to what I identified as the liquor store, which is on the left, so I picked up some boxes there Boston the street. I made a call and
turned back north warner back across the bridge. Used to get on my tweeted high. As I a fortued the bridge, I saw a car headlights.
Come halfway in the road.
He full back and then he passed and turned him behind him. He turned out that the headlights were those of Carl Holding, the Atlanta police officers who was parked beside the liquor store at the bridge. They followed me on to tweeted five before hours, stop hamble the load of bridge. He says he heard a splash. This was the radio sequence one one thousand, two thousand three. During this time, cambl said he was sweet.
He got up.
He walked about fifty yards to the edge of the river. He shined his light on the water. He says he saw ruppers and say he looked up on the bridge. He looked up back down at the river three times, and he said, Freddy, is there a car and the bridge. I just heard a splash. Benny says, yes, it's coming towards me.
I got it.
Dug Fia is filling that, Yeah, I got it, just coming towards me. Stops that's the time of sequence they testified to the court. That's the contradiction. During that sequence, there's no way any car could have been born south on the bridge, turn into the gravel park line and turn back north. That's the absolutely hostibility that car Mine hadn't have been traveling north the entire time of sequence. The bottom line is there was no splash.
Next time on Atlanta Monster, do you hear my voice?
Yeah, So you have to go to the opposite side of them.
So we have the rope with a clip that can clip on to Randy and then we have it clipped on this side sticked into the ground over here.
So we want to get a camera on pane as quick as potiball. Then Candler will have his camera up here.
We're good, up here, We're ready on here.
Call God, I here, Yeah, thank you.
Action.
Atlanta Monster is an investigative podcast toll week by week with new episodes every Friday. A joint production between House Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. Audio archives courtesy of WSB News Film and Videotape Collection, Brown Media Archives, University of Georgia Libraries.
For the latest updates, please visit.
Atlantamonster dot com or follow us on social media. One last thing, we've set up an Atlanta Monster tip line. Anyone with information, leads, or personal accounts pertaining to the Atlanta child murders can call us and leave a message.
The number is one.
Eight three three two eight five six six sixty seven. Again, that's one eight three three two eight five six six sixty seven.
Thanks for listening.
I don't know what the belief I wasn't told what the believed material listed younger, naive new air rebels against a parent ass back was like Chris Krossky and lost in the streets. Reality turned thoughts to debris and a heart to concrete.
Weighing me down.
I don't know what to believe, wearing me down.
I don't know what to believe.
Yeah,