Loose Ends [10]

We're now back in full swing. They let me out yesterday at the institute. You know, they were weigh out of from listening on to said, yeah, it's going good and all that, you know, and they're telling me they've been following it all and and they explained it. And I sat down with the ward and all three of them, and I explained the whole project what we do sat gen way, he said, because I was played him. I said,

you know, I'm not trying to talk to me. I said, we're trying to do stuff to pace out on FLA. He said, well, the people you need to get in here and see like t I like, he said, do you get with me and the lawyer and I'll make it happen. They put me back in the same though back it was, but everything they did a complete reset. It had been a month since I last talked to Wayne. Before I could ask him any more questions, it was strictly business. He first set up a conference call with

Dwayne and I was up. It was hold on one second. Wayne is on the other lines. Yeah, I've got Dwayne here in Pain, and I want to reiterate the saying they would Wayne on the line when we said to make sure that everybody's off in fact, same page. Nobody speaks for Wayne but Wayne. But I've never delegated chairman

to him. All the contexts regarding the interurnacy and the legal affairs on that some Pain understands because that anything regarding to release some documents and uh anything like the case needs to come through Dwayne, because Dwayne is the most knowledge below in this case. And my guys playing to pay. You're the only person to Jim that could actually what we're him to the neighborhoods. We introduce it to the people he's gonna really need to see because

they're not going to talk with him otherwise. To to beat the bushes and all see anything regarding my legal case to the way where I'm delegating the things pay regarding the legal case in contact, you go through Jimmy on all of that, make that happen. And then they regarding the documents or whatever, we have to go through Dwayne and says in the institute of people I trust to do that. The podcast was airing now and it

seemed like it was making Wayne a little antsy. Next, he set up a conference call with his friend Jimmy. You're gonna have to get mcgimpy. He's gonna have to kick you meet all of these different people in all of that takes money. It is you understand what I'm saying. Like that, Dwayne is gonna do the same thing. When they're gonna be suspects. They're gonna meet people who eye witnesses to these things, but they have to take you

into goods. Did you cant going I'm being funny pay but being a young white boy that places, you can't go about yourself with this. They're gonna happen to you. Yes, to you understanding what I'm saying is about He didn't have one minute lesson they're the eyes. Yes, to get it right, they'd be able to tell you know, it didn't happen. That's what, Yes, it did happen that way. Go by the would any of them say unless you hear that for me? They could give you input and all.

But basically the ball, the ball stops will be paid. That's what I'm trying to say. Wayne would have never been cans if he was smarter. But the reason Wayne was convicted was because of what he did understand when he went off the way he went on in court. Now, part of that was it was very welcome is at Chinese fault. The first two days that Wayne was testifying, he was cool. They was asking him questions about being gay and all of this different stuff, and he was saying, look, man,

I don't know nothing about this stuff. I didn't do this. I wasn't there. And he was cool, calm and collected the dispense. Attorney told him to fight back on the stand and that's what ended up really getting Wayne for getting the guilty verdict. Because people was like, oh, he is a doctor, Dico, Mr. The high person. It was they heard come to me and do that was a new story. Channel five ran he said Wayne Williams of tears, too cool and calm. They were responded to a dirt

blue story. God, she told me Wayne, you need to be more forceable. You're looking too calm and cool and very threat quit if I didn't do that. And Atlanta, another party was discovering today a police task force headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall. Twenty six murdered, wasn't missing. We do not know the person or persons that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the morte from tender for TV and house to forks in Atlanta.

Like a lot of other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was asphyxiated. Atlanta unlikely to catch the killer unless he keeps on killing. This is a man of monster. The first thing I asked Wayne was about the trial when he lost his cool on the witness stand. Are you're going to find out all of what happened behind the scenes on this? Wayne doesn't agree with this, but this is my theory behind that. I really think that

she was a plant. Dwayne is convinced that Wayne's attorney Mary Welcome with some sort of plant, but he had no evidence to back that theory. Even Wayne himself disagreed. I was the one that shows Mary. They didn't choose me. You know what I'm saying that was that was a s furnament And you know, because I had known him before another and be honest with you, I liked as a person, how strong over and that's I didn't live.

He was fine. But that thing they do. But I mean, but they didn't bring it to mind, that annoy yet you would find she was fine, fine, It was fine, okay, apparently it was pretty fun and Mary welcome. I asked him about to blow up on the witness stand. This was I think my second day on the witness stand. And that was an article in the paper and in one of the TV stations has been said that I was being too cool and calm on the witness stand.

So my attorneys saw that and they were saying that we need to do something we never they were a friend. That was Lewis and jury. I was cutting off, being too calm and colined, whatever the hick that means, and so fid they say, why we need you to be more possible and project yourself And I said, how do

I do this? I mean, how do you try to present yourself in such a way because I don't think most people realize there isn't a story book that is the guy to how you respond to the witness that I don't care what we can tell you about what kind of perform as you move to. And I just responded, you know. And and I was so upset that I under sense. And that was a tragic misa me because people thought I exploded and I thought, no, I was

well under control. I wasn't. I wasn't upset at district Attorney's over saying I was upset and my laudeous but put me in such a tragic situation. So that's what my frustration was over. So do you need to that played a big role in your conviction, no doubt, no doubt. We we talked for a lot of the journ of us afterwards, and and and I believe it or not, you could actually see the look on their face and I could sense it, you know, it was like they

were like, oh my god, you know. And the dad I literally played myself by the stupidity into the teenage hands and and and it was it was the turning point in the trial. We felled out later on, you know, and talking to Wayne and looking at the evidence of this case. The entire case was built on fiber evidence. There were no fingerprints. I mean, there are allegations that some of Wayne's victims were at his house or in his car. You mean not one fingerprint was found in

Wayne's house. He was that methodical that he cleaned all of these fingerprints. No neighbors ever said, hey, we saw these little boys going in the Wayne's house prison. Right. If Wayne was not on that bridge, the case would have been solved a different way, or it would still be unsolved. Take that bridge out of the equation, then what do you have? Vincent Hill reiterated several episodes back

the overall importance of the bridge fiber evidence aside. If you take the bridge out of the equation, you don't have Wayne to begin with. Let's listen back to Wayne's version of the bridge. In Cent from one of my first calls with him. Alpha doors of Pitch is Alpa bed sized and one that was the first time I a Woyd talk to her about thirty four o'clock. That's what she said, you know, I to audition. I said, well,

before the audition, he needs to interview. He tried to persuade the jury he really was out near a bridge that night looking for us Cheryl Johnson, who still remains a mystery to this trial. The state implied he fabricated the story, but Williams didn't much from it, claiming the woman simply gave him a wrong number and wrong address. And I was suspicious because the information she gave me

there from evers Cansey. I said always she knows some people, knowing that the stunt calls some names, and she didn't know him for that kind of reason to plan to say, well, why don't you come body apartment were I'm staying with the thread. I think she did about seven futigue. I gotta be a working at an apartment. That's when she gave me the address. I mean you should by that address and TVA and I told people are to see

you tomorrow morning. So as a matter of fact, if you look at my statements, I even tell the police said the on CONTs not when I took the address B because I felt it was a fake address. That's why I'm going out to shaking in the first place. I don't know if we should. That's her name. That was just the name that she did. We were doing a public ord a lot of people being fat names and sat address, so I say all the hoopla over Cheryl Johnson's name. You know, she was a plane call.

The prosecution claimed that Wayne Williams had fabricated the entire story of Cheryl Johnson, saying she was fake, and now years later, Wayne agrees he was receiving hundreds of calls from music auditions and every so often he get a prank call, this being one of them. But regardless whether or not Ryl Johnson was a prank call, Wayne still claims that she called him. Well, at least somebody did.

Over the course of a few weeks, I kept asking him about it, trying to pinpoint an exact timeline for everything, and according to Wayne, it starts like this. Do you originally did not call me? This was the key point. She called my mother, En left a note, you know, and my mother left her notes and I and this was one of the one if I was leading. Now, according to Wayne, Cheryl Johnson originally did not call him. She called the number on Wayne's flyer, which at the

time was his house phone. He wasn't there, so his mother answered. This happened the day before the bridge incident. Anytimes about a call about an autist and I want their UH college to do it, she would just write a post it note you know about I talked to her the next day. My mom was the one who wrote the college. My mom wrote that. So Wayne's mom took the call from Cheryl Johnson the day before the bridge incident and wrote down her information on a slip

of paper to give Dwayne. But what exactly did Wayne's mom write on the piece of paper? See this wrote comment, See your mom wrote down her number and then where'd you get the address from? For her pet On the note his mom left him was Sheryl Johnson's name, phone number, and her address. But Wayne did not make contact with her until the next day, around four pm on the same night of the bridge incident. According to Wayne, he didn't call her. She called his house phone again, but

this time he was there to answer it. And and the next day, um, she called back about four o'clock. That's when I answered, you know, and I you know, I think if something was wrong with this woman, because how information didn't add up many it didn't add up. This is where things started to get a little confusing. So I'll do my best to break it down, Wayne says. The next day he didn't call Sheryl Johnson back, but she called his house phone again. Even though Wayne had

the information to call back himself. With so much emphasis on the note from his mom, it seemed to add for him to point out. So I asked him about it again, just for clarity. No, no, no, she called me pain the phone. I don't know what number she called I called. I did. I did not call her back, That's what I'm saying. I talked to her the after the whole This woman claimed she was on the afternoon

of the twenty one, about four o'clock. We talked about maybe five minutes, and when she missed the address, that's when you know she was talking. I gotta be at work. I said, well, we need to do not an audition like dam but an interview. I said, okay, we gotta do an interview before ne York digon. That's when she was done. She got to go back to MTIS and as when I started questioning her on maybe, I said, we ought to know songs, so she didn't know anybody.

I mentioned the names that memp my radar went up at that point quite a few people in the music because she didn't know any straight So that was the only time on talk to this one, Will claimed to be shared. He talked to her around four pm that day for about five minutes, and he claimed he was already a little suspicious of her, but he agreed to meet her the next morning at her apartment anyway, and he said that that phone call was the first and

last time he ever talked to Sheryl Johnson. So, your mom got the call from from Cheryl Johnson and then she wrote down the number and the address the back the information, right, okay. So did you have that note with you when you went driving out that night? Right? Right? That's that's the note, right, okay? So you did you take the note? I put my clock boy, I had

about eight notes. In other words, we did, or if it hangs about calling you back, okay, I mean After confirming his appointment with Caryl Johnson the next morning, Wayne left his house later that night to go find her address because he was still convinced she was a fake caller. When he left his house, he brought with him the slip of paper his mother wrote down her phone number and address on. So the night of the incident. What time do you leave your house that night? I left

about six starting to pick up Willie. His first stop that night was not to go find RYL. Johnson's address. He left around six thirty pm to go to a recording studio called Hot Lanta Records to drop off a bill for photo shoot services. We went straight to College Park meetn Wear Jackie Gado and the people of Hotlins bought down about the apple and a little the field

for the photo services I had done. And we stayed there until about maybe about about an hour and uh I left about seven forty five and I had to run. That was forgett it was a Thursday because I had to rush back home to get the card of a dad because he had a kawana's clothes beat that night and he was late into the beat. But I had to drop Willie when I got backwards about eight, maybe a little after eight. I took Willie hon home first

and put the card of my dad. So after you left the hot Landa Records, where did you go after that? I went home. It's now around eight pm and he's back at his house. You got home at eight, And then when you leave the house again about one about one that morning. Wayne says that he didn't leave the house again until one am that night. In the FBI case files, Wayne recounts his version of what happened that night from that point forward. This is how reads verbat

him from the FBI documents. When Asta recount his activities on the night of Williams stated that he had stopped at the Santucci Lounge on West Peachtree to see Wilburt Jordan's Williams was attempting to pick up a tape recorder which he had loaned him. Williams recalled that he had talked to a female who he stated was in her forties and who was taking admission. The individual informed Williams that Jordan had been in but was not around at

the time. Williams left a message with her regarding the tape recorder and then drove to Smyrder, Georgia an attempt to find Cheryl Johnson's address. I asked Wayne about this. You know, when I went out, my intention was to go to the club about one thirty that morning, but I did get to record my attention about silver before leer the club. Let me check on this address first, and that's when I made the trip up to Cobb

County and all of his started transpired. But according to FBI documents, we made to stop first at a club called San Succi Lounge. Hey, I've got to staking I sent you my I double made statement to anybody I was going to the club. That was my attention to get in recorder. I did go to the club until the night of the seven. Wayne said he left his house with the intention of going to the club, but before he made it there, he decided to go check

on Sheryl Johnson's address first. Contrary to the FBI reports, Wayne says he did not go to the club the night of the bridge incident, but instead he went the following night, the night of May. This whole thing was confusing, so a few days later I asked him about it again. When I did when I when I went on there that night, I went to that, said Susie. First, I understand what I'm saying, yep. I went. After I let home, I went to the dances at first, all right, I

asked for uh, what would you all done? Get it in the stand, And that was my change. When I'll be back later. I left there and I went back on I was gonna go home, and I mayn't let me check the padress, so I went. I went up dead to buy an address. So this would have been about I'm cancering about two o'clock something like that. Wayne's version of the story had changed. Now he's saying he did go to the club that night, the same night he was pulled over on the bridge. So which one

was it? I heard different accounts to right out of Wayne's mouth. But one thing that's really important. Being a liar doesn't make you a killer. People I all the time doesn't make you a killer. Wayne certainly told me two completely different stories about the stands Fugi club, So a few days later I asked him about it again. I'm confused about when you went to the club. One time you told me that you went to the club before the bridge, and then one time you told me

that you went the next day. Okay, then let me correct that. Okay, So so we'll we'll understand over all the confusion over both the club was is that I went to the club first and for the bridge incident. I went to the club looking for the manager, who was a friend of mine. As a matter of fact he was a co producer with my music company. I did not go to see him again. The FBI and the statements driving to turn it around and claim that I went to the club in Salt, you know, Johan,

I never said that. I never saw you know that night. What I did was the next night after the bridge incident, which would have been the nine of the twenty second, I went to the club and Sal you know, Joan, I was going out to pick up the cape recorder, and so I did see him at the next night. Another thing we have pointed out to me in our very first conversation about the bridge was something about his

handwriting and the phone number for RYL. Johnson. You may remember this, and the only confusion in the statements was over the thing on the telephone number in Cheryl Johnston. The number was nine three four Seller Stember six six. You'll see when you get my riding. I'm going to see it was four three four of the seven six. My boys and my eyes looked alike because I closed loop them, so the fours and nines were mixed up because his handwriting looked the same on the note, No no, no, no,

you hear everything. The number I wrote was four three four seven seven six six. Okay, they're looking at my notes in the car, and my rite thought it was a man. You understanding what I'm saying, my mines and my foes. Look, I can't tell the difference they assumed by my writing was nine three four, and that incorrect information lasting to this date. So right, that's where the

confusing came in on it. So when that's why the note was stilling part of because the note would have shown it was four three fourth not nine three four. But Wayne told me earlier that his mother wrote the note, the same note he brought with him in the car. So your mom got the call from some Cheryl Johnson and then she wrote down the number and the address like the call back information, right, okay, So did you have that note with you when you went driving out

that night? Right? Right? That's that's the note, right, Okay? So you did you take the note I put on my clipboard. I had about eight notes on this, So how was that possible? Wayne's theory about his handwriting would only make sense if he had written the note himself, But he didn't, he said his mom did. Unless there

was a second note. I had an appointment book looked me ahead the time, and and to be honest, which I can't remember if I actually had the note from Cheryl Johnson whipped me that night, bought a notation on my appointment book. I'm pretty sure it was a notation on my appointment book that I showed the FBI agent. On the note that the FBI agent got, that was

my mom's handwriting. Before Wayne was stopped on the bridge, he claimed he had pulled over into a liquor store parking lot and used a pay phone an attempt to call Cheryl Johnso you called the number, and what happened when you called the number one? When when I'm not on the number and I'm not on and then the verst time I got a you know, I'm um this number on this sermons und out and I doubt and no the number and then I think was nine and stuff,

but I can't remember what. I've tried to uphone numbers and finally called one number and looked like I whoped somebody up and said, well, well master being there. He yeah, hum up to down phone like that, not to say it was the right number to the person say he eight. He had just slammed the phone bounce, So I whoped somebody up and I didn't try no more after that.

This story does match the FBI reports, but I was still confused about the handwriting story and the mixed up on the phone numbers, so I asked him about it again. And so the FBI tried to call the number right and then said it didn't work or what no, no, no pain. They tried to call three four and now or three four like you understanding what I'm saying. Yes, So they called the wrong number, right, they tried. Yeah, I've never called the nine three four one, and that's them.

I don't know what you know. The number I called was four three four seven s six six, and I got a lot of dude, I'm not in service or something. I can't remember now. And I tried because if I but about a minute, and I tried a couple of more combinations at all, and I got one with somebody else if he is slammed the phone down like that. You know, So the number that you had the one that they got wrong. Do you think the number that you had was her correct number? I don't think any

of it was correct. That's the point I make it. I think she was a focus call from the beginning. That's my point. I think the Ryl Johnson was just some story he made up really quick too in the morning. Wayne could have said a hundred of different things besides Cheryl Johnson, which police never found, the Ryl Johnson with that phone number which didn't exist. Whatever Wayne was doing

that night, I don't know. Wayne possibly could be hiding something, or maybe Wayne did kill Nathaniel Cator and maybe that's why he and Jimmy are the only two murders he was convicted of. But simply changing his story it doesn't prove anything as far as you know, why not years later Wayne said yeah, I lied, here's what I was really doing. But at the same time, you could argue and say why not years later, because let's be honest, I don't think Wayne will ever get out of prison.

Why not years later say yeah, I'm gonna confess to everything, and here's how I did it. Wayne's entire existence is built on this. If he confesses, then you know that's a rap. Wayne Williams will just diminish. If Wayne confessed, he's Wayne was probably up to no good that night, but I don't think it involved uh Nathaniel Cator. I don't know that there. You know, there was that defining

moment during that trial. There was one for me and as an observer that came at the very end, and I still think it is some of the strongest evidence that was presented in the trial. And I would tell you that your audience has never heard of it. The blood too of the last four victims were stabbed the end of the stream of murders, John Porter and William Barrett. There were two blood sains found in the station wagon.

They typed them, neither one on her Wayne's blood, but they both matched the two victims that had been stabbed, Porter and Barren. The link was suggested by showing the jury this ripped up car seat that came from the seventies station wagon driven by Wayne Williams. An expert from the Georgia Crime Lab told the jury that she had found that four areas of dried blood on the seat.

Two types were analyzed, Type A and type B. Prosecutors then had witnesses testify about blood samples taken from the bodies of John Porter and William Barrett, two victims found with stab wounds. Porter had type B, Barrett type A, the same as the samples found in the suspect's car. The jury also heard the dried blood in the car could not be from Williams since he was Type O, the state obviously suggesting that the bodies of Barrett and

Porter were at one time on that seat. Of course, the defense wanted the jury to realize the connection is a shaky one since William's parents and the owners of the car, and uncle and aunt and thousands of other people may have had those blood types and driven in the car. But if you could get to the blood, I think if I recall us within six weeks, you can break it down even further. You get into an

enzyme factor. They were able to do that. Both of those two victims had been stabbed within the last six weeks. Both of the two bloodstains in the back seat of Wayne Williams car. We're fresh enough to be able to break them down into the enzyme factor both matched Barrett and Porter. Prosecutors continued to close in with a connection. The jury, listening carefully and taking notes, heard that both

Porter and Barrett had an enzyme type one. A further breakdown of their blood samples, the panel then heard that both stains in the car were enzyme type one. One of them. According to the testimony in the trial, that particular blood type an enzyme factor was found in only seven percent I care remember of seven percent of males or seven percent of African American males, but of seven percent the other one was found in only talking percentages.

The witness has said only seven out of every one people would have Porters type be enzyme type one, and that twenty four out of every one people would have Barratts type A enzyme type one. Two victims stabbed two blood stains in his car, and they both match. It was physical evidence. That's not really circumstantial evidence. That's physical evidence. It's not a fingerprint, it's not a murder on a videotape. But it was very strong evidence. I thought at the

end of that trial. Throughout my investigation, the case of Clifford Jones kept popping up. Jones's case stands out in particular because many people feel there's another viable suspect for the murder aside from Wayne Williams. I first found Dwayne Hendricks from a YouTube video of Clifford Jones's brother Emmanuel, and your brother's name was Clifford Jones. It was one earlier morning on the people had kidnapped my brother, man

named Jamie Brooks. Horrors hopgood Freda cos these guys helped my brother captive in a laundron matt right on the corner how Dole What road. Hours later he was found near a dumpster behind them, all strangled, wrapped in plastic. His brother was inside being beaten and raped all day before they actually killed him. In dispose of his body. An alleged eye witness described the strangling of Jones and identified the strangler not Wayne Williams, but a man named

Jamie Brooks. He knewed Wayne Williams didn't kill his brother. He knew that. And despite all that evidence, the task force blamed Clifford Jones murder not on Jamie Brooks, but on Wayne Williams. The investigators reviewing the case file on Clifford Jones released to Channel two News under court order a file containing statements from five eye witnesses who point to a suspect other than Wayne Williams as the killer of Jones. Jones's case also stood out to Fiber analyst

Larry Peterson. To Peterson, Jones's case was one of the only puzzles you couldn't put together. Clifford Jones case became, I think important in my mind one because it was the first one I went to and it was the one that seemed to be the submit the need the former task force. At this crime scene, one of the things I did was examined the body. Look around the body, you know, are their tire prints are there? Shoot prints? Are is there anything? But from a crime scene standpoint,

and literally there was nothing but the body itself. The only things I had noticed and collected was over twenty beige carpet fibers loose in his hair, on his skin, on his clothes, and I collected him at the crime scene. That was one of the fiber types that I'm convinced is important because they were so loose and so many they had to be tied to how his his body got there. Whatever sample came in, that was one of the ones I would always go. It was the green carpet.

There was some other things, but in his case, I always looked for the his page carpet fibers on any samples submitted for comparison, and actually through the trial they never matched anything. So that was always kind of a mystery fiber as to what, then where did they come from? That had had bugged me through post trial. It always had bugged me. The thing that I wanted to know most was I wanted to know everything about what the evidence meant. So a year after trial, to satisfy his

own professional and scientific curiosity, Very investigated further. You couldn't reconcile these missing pieces. So they had put these records into evidence that they had these three different for pharamontmonts the family was getting using its rentals. This was news to me. It turns out between seventy one the William Stanley was in possession of at least six cars at

one time, or another three being rental cars. I was at Fulton County about a year after the trial, and I went by the Hill Attorney's office and talked to Joe Drole, and I said, is there any way if the defense put those real agreements into evidence, is it possible I could get copies? So he supplied me with copies of the real agreements, which include then numbers and

descriptions of the automobiles. So I took that and I ran it through our Crime Information Center, through the Vehicle Administration and came up with the fact that those had been sold as used cars, and I had GBI agents go to those locations collect trunk liner and floorboard fibers from those three rental cars. In the meantime, I looked at the time sequences and when the rental agreements were and what victims disappeared in those time sequences. Clifford Jones

fell to the same time sequence. So when that fiber sample came in from the trunk liner and from the floorboard, the first thing I found was that there beige carpet fibers in the floorboard of the rental car that matched the Clifford. Wow, you know, I had a I had a stronger case after the trial than I even did during the trial. What he found during his investigation was the base carpet fibers, the ones he could never match before trial, the ones that link Clifford Jones to a

car in way William's possession. One of those things where everything built on everything else that came after it. Nothing ever eliminated him, nothing ever eliminated White. Everything we would come to kept him in the ballpark. Lewis Layton said at the beginning of the trial. It's a puzzle and we're gonna put all the pieces together. And as you watch that puzzle being filled in, they kind of answered every question for the jury. So it's a case to me that its strength was in the totality of all

of it. Does he have any defense Lloyds than anybody. He had a good one for a while, Jack Jack markin Jack Spit attorney. I think if Jack saw something here or didn't see something here, that's why he's not involved anybody. I think everybody's most interested in Wayne. They realized that he's the right guy, you know. So it's I don't see much happening on the Wayne Williams right. The bridge made it, the fibers made it, the blood

made it, the eyewitnesses made it. It was everything. And they told you what Wayne's life was and how it fit into all this, of his taking these cars and driving for hundreds and hundreds of miles, driving in the late night, early morning hours, picking up young boys, going to be a music producer, never really producing anything. They gave the jury a picture of who this guy was. The story of Wayne Williams is one story because he was charged and convicted with the murder of adults. That's

one story. But the other story the children, the girls, the boys who were murdered, who were dumped. How do you introduce evidence from another crime that the defendant's not charged with. Georgia law allows you to bring in what they call a similar transaction. Was a two part test. You had proved to a judge that there was some evidence linking the defendant to the crime, and there was some evidence that the crime would show a pattern, a

scheme and a bent of mind of that defendant. Oh my god, this is what Lewis Layton's going to do with Wayne Williams. And we're going to have the child murder trial. It's not going to be Jimmy Ray Paine and Nathaniel Cater. I would say that whatever law Louis Layton used at that time period, it was probably the most expedient thing to do. If there were enough similarities, then just dump it all on one. And that not criticizing Mr Slayton. It's just saying it appeared at that

time to be the best thing to do. It gave the public and again it answered a question in the jury's mind, what about the kids? And they gave I believe Atlanta the child murder trial. As I said before, God was anonymous and I won't seeing him know why witnesses. It is amazing we convicted him without any eye witnesses that a single person came forward. And the witnesses that we had were very shaky at best. They thought they

saw this. They thought what they said that I was not involved in the trial, but they but again it was all Harris or Fibers, and today it would be a very interesting case. Wayne Williams told reporters at a press conference in June that he didn't know any of the victims on the task force listn't associates, no family. The state has witnesses that will place the victims with Williams. The next door neighbor of the Williams did say he saw Wayne the day the suspect was supposed to be

with victim Larry Rodgers. Two relatives of the victim said Wayne Williams was seen with Barrett several months before his death. More damaging testimony today from other witnesses who claimed to have seen Cater alive on May one. One woman placed the suspect with Terry Pew, but in April of last year.

Five months after Pew's body was found, Margaret Carter, a woman who lives in northwest Atlanta, told the jury that she saw Williams with victim Nathaniel Cater, and this for Bena Street Park a week before Cater's body was found in the Chattahoochee River, and the witness also said alongside

the two men was a German shepherd. But the person who stood out as the most credible witness was this woman, Nellie Trammell, who placed Wayne Williams in a car with Larry Rogers, saying the slightly retarded man was slumped over in the past in your seat. A week later, Roger's

body is found near Simpson Road. A lot of the witnesses were unrelowed when people got to remember that this case gave the trial that was a half million dollar cares reward or information into the risk in conviction of anyone associated with the Atlantic killing, and an obvious by the testimony that these motivated when they thought that they

would be able to collect reward for the party. Ken Lawson worked in the Task Force headquarters, answering phones and writing reports, but Lawson was amazed to see Nellie travel as a witness telling the jury the elderly woman was almost a regular at Task Force headquarters who would sit there for hours knitting. Every time a body was found,

she'd call about it. It got to the point, he said that recruits would try and pass Nellie's calls off to each other and the witnesses we're just playing wrong.

Like one guy was an eighty nine year old guy who could not see an elderly man who may have been discredited by the defense it's because of poor eyesight, testified he saw Williams with paying last April, identified me of poliper was Jimmy Ray pain on banking at Highway from a business of a quarter a mile away, and he couldn't even identify me any court rooms, so you know, he was laughable. Another witness came into the courtroom an

admitted just before testifying, he had just smoke. Another witness nicknamed Colbury, he's putting Williams with. Larry Rodgers, was an admitted drug user and in fact told the jury he had smoked marijuana before testifying. His credibility was strained and he wasn't able to peeck me out on the witness stand, so he pulls out a piece of paper on his pocket. Say yeah, but I've seen this guy in the dow

this paper. You know, it was ridiculous, because ridiculous. The other hand, you did have some witnesses pay or just playing wrong in their association. With one of those witnesses, Ken Hynes, but thought he so Joseph Dale better a court studio that we had on Janior the third. Kent Hinzman, a twenty four year old songwriter, says he spent more to January third with Williams in this Buckhead recording studio, and there with Williams was a teenager by the name

of Joseph Joe Joe Bell. I remember Joe Joe because he came in and he uh, he's sang for fr you know, he's sing a few tunes and he had a very good voice, and I was asking Wayne where was he gonna do it in. Wayne said he was going to sign the guy to a contract immediately. And at the same time you had another state with this testified that she saw me with movie on that same

day as recording studio system was Hill. A middle aged white woman, Ruth Warren, told the jury she also saw Williams with Jeter the day the thirteen year old boy disappeared. He provided an alibi for me because we were recorded. She knew with bucket miles away up from where to get here, so you had to stay. Witness is complicted with each other, but the witness could not remember under cross examination when she told police about the sighting over

this story to help y'all. Lot of whatever y'all podcast about. It's cool, man, but this ship won't. What I'm telling y'all. Recently, a man named Tony came to the office and told me a story he's only ever told his family. I ain't making none of this man. This ship real, n ain't trying to get no nigger in trouble who ain't shouldn't be talking about or putting no lies on nobody. It's true facts. Man, My cousin, we was going to the Lamba Zoo, so we ever rode the bikes over there.

We snuck into zoo a matter of fact, you know what I'm saying, with to one of the back gates where had turned one way or the other. You know, we slid through. So we had chained our bikes up by side and we came back out to do the bikes were gone. We were based right does this post? You know what I'm saying, More like how we're gonna get back home? I was living there then the project

it was called Greater Homes. So I was walking back across the park going back to Greater Homes, and out of the blue, this guy came off the top of the hill. He was like, Hey, what's going on? Hey y'all doing you're you're you're okay? I was like, yeah, we find said somebody ha stole my bi silk of you know what I'm saying. We was over at the zoo and then we gotta walk back home. So he was like you need a ride? Like now, we're good,

we we can walk. You know what I'm Sayings like, well, my dad on this church is the pastor of this church over here. It was like a the housing area and I'm since I had remember that church because had been over there. So I was like, yeah, I've been to that church before, you know what I'm saying. So so he's like, yeah, my dad is a pastor. He said he'll take your home. Y'all. Ain't got to walk all the way back to the Greater Home. You know what I'm saying. I was like, well cool then, so

we was following him back to the church. I think his dad is on to us a ride. Instead of him taking us straight across the street to the church, where he took up to the street and took us up a pathway in the back of the houses that we were along the street that led to the church. That's when things tarted to feel a little weird. Why are you Why are you taking up this way? I kind of felt kind officient about while he took up

through this pathway. So by the time we got back on the open the weather whether the church set off the street, it's a car Paul back now. So he was more like, y'all gonna get in the car and get my dad, and my daddy gonna take y'all know. So I was like, no, we're just gonna wait till your dad to come, you know what I'm saying. The man got anty and aggressive, and Tony knew something wasn't right. He had to get out of there. So I like, anyway, I gotta pee, you know what I'm saying. So I

piste on the side of the car. So my cousin Bobo would like standing by the car beside me, and he was telling my cup were you're just going to get in, you know what I'm saying. So he was like, no, I we ain't gonna get in, just gonna get your dad, you know what I'm saying. So he started looking around. When he stepped back to the car, ga he had opened the car door. That's where he got aggressive. It's holding me in a change. It's my old theory was get us in this car. It turned from my dad's

and take your holy y'all, get your motherfucker' dad. And this goddamn call. He had grabbed us in the back of a church where nobody was around. He tried to throw us in the car. For him to try and get two at a time was a tax. So when we tried to break through, when we started hitting on him, and he couldn't let one get away and keep one, and so he had to reach it two people in

two different direction. That's how we broke away. He lost grill for one lost grip or we split it up, and so I ran one way and my cousin ran back the way we came. And I look back and I'm right, I don't see nobody to hid me so I'm thinking he probably got my cousin. So I'm running up street crying, get way up down, you know what I'm saying. Then all of a sudden, my cousin come out. He pop up. I SAI out there, you get away, he said, shot. I just kipt running. He ain't come

hid me. So I went back to the house. I was telling my mom's I was like, I just tried to throw us in the car, tried to kidnap us. So I took him where the coach paul. I took away where he took us to, and the car was gone, you know what I'm saying. So the only description I had then that he kind of favored my brother five six five seven, you know what I'm saying. With glasses, Tony told his mother that the dangerous man that tried to abduct him looks kind of like his own brother,

a black man with bushy hair and glasses. At first, the man was nameless, but then Tony sold the news. In a year or so went back. My mama was looking at it on the news and I was like, that's the same guy who tried to grab both mom. The guy who did it, I remember his face clearly everything came together and I saw his face. I knew that was him Way Williams. And so she was like, you shure, I said, that's him. Might never get that guy? Say you remember I told he looked just like Read.

And I said, now, don't he looked like Read? And she was like, yeah, he do. Favorite in a little bit like that said, I never get the face we cause we fought with him, and there ain't no mistaken and no I identity there. You know, I can picture that whole day clearly. And I looked this man in his face. You know what I'm saying. This man tried to do man and and I know he tried to do it though you know what I'm saying, one like he was playing him. He got real serious, you know,

So he tried to put us in this car. In hindsight, Tony realized the man's gestures were actually manipulative and calculated charm. Way, don't we pray without suspicion. If I would have been by myself, he probably would have killed me. He might have took all bites. He might have saw his colm down and took our bicycles. So he knew that we were gonna have to walk back. He could have killed me. People believe different type of ways. You know what I'm saying.

But I know for a fact what he tried to do to me, and I know how caring in and conniv here. It ain't never going to trick somebody in the car with him. To Tony, it all made sense all the stories about Wayne Williams. He says he saw it firsthand. He wasn't coming at you like a monster. He was coming to you like a friend, you know, to get your trust, to get you in there call. You know what I'm saying. That's why he did what he did for so long, acause he made no scene

doing what he was doing. It was so normal how he'll get you in that call with nobody recognize. I've seen how he tried to do us. You probably need to been talking to me today. Real told I don't say I'm telling real. I ain't got I ain't benefiting nothing from this. You know what I'm saying. My family knew about this. I don't talk about this. Nobody ain't come at you like no no beasts to get your attention. He put up a hitching the here the babyball back

and throw you in truck and how he worked. Now they was already from a low end call family problem. Ain't had too much food in the house, you know what I'm saying, Anything but swam a canon ball ice cream. Man. Ain't got no remorse. Man, don't kill you, know what I'm saying. He ain't sitting back in prison really crying. He's innocent. He ain't really fighting that hard to let folk know he need to be out of prison. He's just doing his time because they know he killed the

mother church. They just can't prove it he did that. Man, he's a monster, I know him, master killing a lot of babies. Know what I'm saying. She's sad man. I thought it was only fair to share this story with Wayne to see what he said about it. Tony made a lot of bold claims, but very convincingly. I asked Wayne for his take. He Uh, He came into my office a few days ago and he told me that he thinks that you tried to abduct him and his cousin at the back of a church, A pack of

a what back of a church. He said that the man said his dad was a pastor at the church. That's ridiculously you know. That's that's one thing about this tribe. You've got people who who call forth with these stories after the back. And you've got to remember, after my picture was blasted all over the news on June the fourth, You've had all types of people coming forced and I know this guy. On My point is why were these people before? Why were these people when these incidents happened.

You know at the time that they could not identify anybody. Now, I'm not saying that somebody may not have tried to abduct these people at all, but for what I'm saying is that there's enough signs to togetherness. We know the data prove that that witness testimony could be painted and influenced by publicity after the fact. And that's no doubt what happened in this case. And a lot with a lot of these witnesses true, absolutely not. You know, that's

ridiculous right there. You know, I don't even know these people, and and and here we are years later. You know, I hear stories like that. You know, again, we've heard it all from the years. But my point is, if it was true, of these people would have come out a long time ago. One thing I developed over the years from from this thing paint, I developed a tough skin. I've heard everything I've heard, even the jokes and everything.

You know, I've heard it all. But that that doesn't phaze my results getting you out, you know, because the fact is is that you know, I'm in of what happened in Atlanta, Georgia, and that's that's the same focus that I've got to have right now. But Tony story wasn't the only one I was told. There was one more. Don't be his lawyer. You know what I'm saying, Don't be his savior, Don't be his guard. You know what I'm saying, because I know what I've seen my own eyes.

At this time, I was staying on one side of the town, the bank Heads side of the town, and we had moved from Grand Paul and Unstead State there. So once sign that I went over there to play with my cousin, they'll make grand problems at Grandpaul playing. Then when I left, instead of me waiting on the bus at Nana Avenue, I went up by Atlanta Food and County Stadium and I was sitting in the bus stout waiting on the bus. And then a bit blue Chevrolet pool up stopped in the middle of the street

and he left the one of that. He's a can you tell him matter the mother Luther King? He said, what what you stayed? I said, when I stay on bank, kid, But you know what I'm saying, I'm gonna get rid of going. He said, I get your ride. That's not only eating nor ride. I sat back down in the booth, you know what I'm saying. So I heard some car TiAl, so I get back up in lootle. He whipped the car around in the middle of the street. You know something, But this is on the sun in front of food

and Counter stadium. Wasn't no game, so buses run slow, ain't halding nobody, you know, moving something like I ain't no more car coming back. So he w back up by the bus stop and right up on the side walk, you know, saying. So I jump up and I was looking at the sketch. I was looking at the sketching and back of my mind like this, ain't dude be on TV, Like you know what I mean. So I stood up and looked and at first I did jump back,

like is there for real? I'm looking at him? And he stepped out with one leg and the little at frow stick up in there. He looked me dead in the favorite the glasses on. I'm like, bro, I really got to be kidding because they already saying they're looking for you. You know what I'm saying. And you steal a lot playing And I had told him I didn't eat no ride, and I had told him what Mother the King was, and if you're from Atlanta, he didn't

really have to turn around right now. He could have went down to the red light, made it right, and went to Mother the King. When he pulled the car around, he pulled up on the sidewalk like he was trying to kidnap me. I can't be the judge of what Wayne did. But the only thing I can say with somebody to say he didn't kill out them churus. And that's why I'll be standing him saying today, Waite pumped your brakes. Everybody in the project. I knew they were poked.

So we didn't fight each other like they do now. Gangs him. Now, we didn't fight each other like in front of the project. You poled like me, you got no reason to fight. But if we hear something about Wayne, we're gonna your mom's gonna call my mom. Door neighbor said, Wayne, why don't you trying to get her song? That was the conversation man. Then, yeah, they were saying Wayne william They weren't saying no man in the blue cold Wayne Williams. They would call him by their name, so they did.

It's real to me, I ain't you ain't offer me no money, You don't offer me nothing. I'm did telling you what happened for real. You know what I'm saying. We was already as kids, preparing for if he came. And when he came, you know what I mean. No, guys started buying a little pocket knives and stuff, you know, like get a piece of glass and wrap it up in the napkin, put in your pocket, like you know, you ever got in trouble or somebody to pull up and try to get you, that was your weapon. I

mean you listen, man, listen. I'm not trying to debate with nobody, never about what I've seen or what happened to me. So you know what I'm saying. I don't eat nobody runn up for me. Twenty year later saying what you see Wayne? You know? But I know what I've seen. I don't have to keep on trying to rehash it like I'm trying to convince nobody. You know what I'm saying. I know Wayne, I don't see Waine since then. You know, shook Waine hands just to get

in front of him. Like, bro, you know seeing me before eight and nine, I was a young you know, a little young rich dude that doesn't cut my fur dope. Kay went down the road and uh man, they put some dope on. But you know what I'm saying, They said, dude up in the love library, but help you out. When I went up there and seeing who it wolves, you know it kind of I w was not not came there and work on mine cave. You know what I'm saying, Like that would just me Waine were working

in what they call the live library. No, wa ain't in there. He doesn't kind of trick the folks saying like I'm small, let me work in the long library. So when you go in the long library, you got the dope case. We ain't making friend with the dope boys because he needs really protection, you know what I'm saying. Like if I get in Google something of y'all, I can get the rest of the folks on my back because everybody got keen people in him. He is like

to Pope, people's lawyer. But here get in there with the books and the entertain You see him he reading the book, but you had guys in there who didn't how I low your mind? And so I was like, I'm some heart. You know I don't find to go to college. So I started working on my own case. So I'm sitting there. Way ain't just like y'all sitting there, not that it made Wayne. You know, I'm saying, like he kept nobody in my family or got people saying

he didn't do it. You know what I'm saying. So so when you see you and said what you're here for a little bro, you know what I'm saying that you might not know he ain't William. You'd be like, man, they're playing it some dope on me. You know what I'm saying. That's how you broke when you're they're playing it some dope on me. That wouldn't need my dope. They were right up his atlet Oh. Now I can work on his case and being my friendship U and I can get people to stop saying I'm gonna killer.

So with Wayne would do a look over your case for you your mean and be like, yeah, we're gonna find this heyper crepy right here and get your case overturned. You're gonna go home. So Wayne was in the hipping people when you and now Wayne is your friend because guess who is your enemate? The system? Everybody isn't ever like when I see him, I'm gonna kill him. And see if you got that one children missing? You got that man? You got thirty four k folks in the

cools and their threws and brothers. When I see him, I'm just gonna chok him. You know what I'm saying. You know, but they couldn't get to him like that, like when you go to the Low Library you sign a piece of paper and they handcuffed and take you up. Then they opened the door and throw you in thew and you're like, she ain't might kill me you up in the library. You know he might be done. Made a shank and put it in the Low Library book.

So if he got a raise in the in the book, he could jook you with your say, if he's a killer, know what man want to face the story killer not then no, one day do coming out and I want to say he was from Capital Home. I remember we're having a small conversation. He was like, I'm gonna get him. You know what I'm saying, I'm gonna get him. I guess the little kid Toba jt or somebody from Capital. He got missing some kind of way. He turned the

cone in the library and you can hear the number. Oh, y'all, you know what I'm saying. When I looked around the way picking the glasses about the ground, you know that tear coming out of his eyes and and I didn't see that, I said, he just it. It was something on his mind. He wanted to get out of like you want to file for Wayne. We didn't ask for this life with folded food stamps in the way. I found the wick in the government cheese and the pile of milk. Like he listen today. We had apartment. You

know what I'm saying. The lights was on, but when on furniture, and I went on food, And I'm like, where we're gonna get it from? One thought? One part of history. I don't know. Somebody got to tear me who started first, Hayden? It had to be one or two people. It couldn't have been Jesus wasn't but somebody

had to start Hayden hatred and race sealson. They now but telling us that in schood until a bunch of us get together and start knocking at the at the dope and have our own Niga man march or Blacks and Whites not no where ass and protests. I don't want you to go to jail for me, like if we don't come together as one. And I said, we can hear the conversation every week if we feel like it will make a difference. But this Dwayne Williams show, You know what I was saying, But we need another

show and we want to break the race relationss. If there's one thing I've learned throughout my work on Atlanta, Monster said, no matter how you slice it, this story is bigger than an investigation, bigger than a trial, and bigger than Wayne Williams. This case invokes deep emotions even in people that weren't directly affected by the killings, and from what I've seen, it's inextuably tied to a feeling

of social struggle. No matter who committed these crimes, the people of Atlanta, particularly the black community, didn't feel safe. We're sufficiently supported through sensationalized media and heightened pressure. The children that were murdered almost seemed to become a secondary narrative to the story of Wayne Williams. But it's most important to remember how this all started. With Edward Hope

Smith on July one, nineteen seventy nine. I think cast such as what you're doing pay are one of the best ways to attack, dismissinformation and trying to get people to open the eyes and see, wait a minute, you know it's trying to wake up. It seeks truth. You're trying to tell a very difficult story, and you've done

as best a job as you could tell him. Then, so I guess they speak experts them because that's all paining you tackle to probably one case, the very few of us understand and and and and our command you but trying Who is the Atlanta monster? We don't know, but we really don't know. And I think that that it's clear at this point that was never any single a line of monster. I think that your monster is probably a group of of some of these by supremacists

who vother some of these killers. I think your monster is probably people involved in some of these six and drug ranks that no doubt kill some of these victors. And I think your line of monster may well be the streets of Atlanta. In the cases in which to pick us, we're victors the street crack. So I think it's done an Atlanta monster. You probably need to read latel it at line of monsters and put a plural on the end of it. Wayne, did you murder anybody? Hell?

I have not killed anybody in my life. Okay, that's the question people ask all the time, and it's a question that I will for people to ask because, let let me tell you something. You know, I can let people in the eye because my soul is arrest with God. I sleep very good at night because we've all done things it's not life that are wrong, if we're not proud of. They are probably billion things that I've done in my life that I could have been arrested for,

but killing somebody isn't one of them. And I think anybody who really knows me and knows my character those that this is a situation that was strung stub against me. So I sleep good enough. It's this murder mystery that never ends. As you know, there's just so many questions. We're fascinated by crime stories. This is never going to go away unless someone is arrested found guilty of killing one or two of these children, and somebody else is arrested and found guilty of killing a child. Now it's

never going to go away. And even then it won't go away because there will be still be people who say, I don't believe he did it. This is a story that will last longer than the two of us. There is this growing sense that if we don't figure this out now, maybe we never will. You know, is this going to go into some Jack the Ripper style vault

of perpetually unsolved mysteries. I don't think it's opening up an old wound, because I think the wound is healed, because many people say Wayne Williams is in jail and that's it. But I think what it's doing is informing a new generation because there are a lot of people have never heard of this case because they weren't born when it happened. And so now it serves two purposes

the historical perspective. Two, it also opens up new minds to investigate the case and then three, it reminds young people you can't run footloose and fancy for you all over the city and think someone's not gonna grab you. Although we'll never know why those particular children were taken, and they were poor, they were black, they were in a poor part of town, alone, and right now there's

still alone. They are alone, and that no one seems to bother about saying, I really want to know who killed Luby Cheeter, I really want to know what happened.

Who's been holding something inside for all these years? For many of these children, The way that they were characterized suggested to people, there's no reason for you to cry for yourself because they don't have to mean anything for you, and you don't have to cry for them and what they lost either, because that wasn't going to amount to anything much, And that to me is not only tragic and upsetting, it is simply untrue. It's not true for anybody.

It felt heavy, That's how it felt. It felt sad, and it felt like like there was a very terrible person, indeed a monster who's just devouring black men. This is former Atlanta Mayor becausiem Read. His term in office just ended this year. I was mayor for two thousand nine and twenty days. He remembers the child murders firsthand as a young boy growing up in Atlanta. There needs to

be an equality to the importance of life. To the extent that you have really equality of the importance of life, you would have had more attention faster if it were a white child. Any child is harmed, we also have the same level of intensity and passion and focus from day one. There should not be a lag time for alarm needs to be that a kid got killed, and we're gonna find who killed a kid, and we're gonna bring that person to justice. And it needs to be

a unified feeling that that is the case. It should not be community by community. And to the extent that we do that we are a better city. We have to maintain that important ethic that our children are hands off to anybody, and that anybody who attempts to harm our children will suffer extraordinary, dynamic and extreme consequences with unified support, That's what I hope that the lesson will be.

Thanks for listening to Atlanta Monster. If you've enjoyed it, I encourage you to check out our first podcast Up and Vanished, a true crime investigation into the disappearance of Georgia High school teacher and beauty queen Terat Grinstead. Up and Vanish is available now on Apple Podcasts. Atlanta Monster is a joint production between How Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. Audio archives courtesy of WSB News Film and Video Tape Collection, Brown

Media Archives, University of Georgia Libraries. For the latest updates, please visit Atlanta Monster dot com or follow us on social media. If you have any questions from Mere the team, please call us at one three eight five six six six seven. That's three three five six seven