Hey, this is Sandy. And Randy? And we're here on AT Corner. Being an Athi trainer comes with ups and downs, and we're here to showcase it all. Join us as we share our world in sports medicine. Welcome back to another episode of AT Corner. For this week's episode we have a very exciting Co host story episode on a sport that I feel has gained a lot of popularity at least within the last decade just alone.
Well, I feel like the Olympics also did a really good job of showing and just the sevens, which I learned in the last hour of talking to Megan, that there's two different sides, the sevens, Not two different sides, but two different. Subtypes. Yeah, types of rugby play styles, maybe, Yeah. For sure. So as you can tell, since we are not the rugby experts or have a lot of experience. We don't know the first thing about rugby, so we are not qualified to talk about this
topic. Yes, we brought in a resident rugby expert. There you go. In Megan McKay, she is currently the head of medical for the Houston Sabre Cats, which is a founding team of Major League Rugby. She just finished her 7th season by the way. Fun fact. So that's men's fifteens professional rugby, but she's also worked with women's fifteens, USA rugby.
She I'll let her do the rest of her introducing because she goes into like what got her into it And, and really the nitty gritty parts of rugby and even the most obvious things that we did not know before this episode. And hopefully that if you're interested in working rugby, if you've worked rugby, or if that's something that you might never do, but just want to hear about rugby, this episode's for you.
So like we said, there's a lot in this episode, but I'm going to let Megan talk and share her favorite memory to kick us off. Oh, that was a tough one to pick. Rugby has a lot of unique traditions. They're, they do a jersey presentation, so they select someone to come in and present the jersey because there's 23 men on the field or, or women on the field if you're playing fifteens and you have to earn that spot every week.
So it's kind of a big deal. It's just the team in there and they invite someone in to do a jersey presentation. And it's usually not medical staff or team manager or people like that. But I was asked to present the jersey and it also happened to be one of my athletes. 50th cap match so and he was with me from the beginning of the team and he was like one of the original players.
So that was really meaningful for me was to be able to not only present to the whole team and and kind of tell my story with the team having been with the team since the inception, but also to present him his jersey for his 50th cap. So that was really cool. And then on the flip side, post match, if you win, they do a song that's unique to their team and they all sing it together. And then water and things are thrown in the locker room and it's like a big celebration.
And they found out it was my 50th cap, which I'm not a player, I don't have to earn my jersey. So I wasn't really paying attention to that. But one of the other athletic trainers had asked me to count them up and it was my 50th cap and they brought me in the middle of that with two of the other guys who got their first cap. And so we're in the middle of that whole locker room celebration.
So those two moments I'd say were probably my top 2 because, you know, it is great getting players back on the field and, you know, these other experiences with injuries, but those cultural experiences with the team are unique to rugby. And so those are kind of my top 2. They were they were kind of tied. So I had to say both of them. Wow, that's really cool. And look at that. We just started and I already learned so much. Didn't know any of that existed.
So that's really cool. Kind of gave me chills. Honestly, I was just about to say like, I'm over here, like I have chills over. There, that seems, that seems really special. That's really cool. Yeah, it's really cool. It's really, really neat moment. So I did ask on our Instagram polls this week if our listeners have ever worked rugby and we got actually 52% of people said yes and 48% of people said no. We so we were almost at that
half, half. But something that I noticed and something that you and I were talking about to Megan before this is that there's just such a difference in rugby versus some other sports. I did have one person, Aubrey J, who said I have a new love for rugby. I've always had the idea that it was very similar to football. So I kind of came in working it thinking it was like football. They're very different even in comparison to injuries. It was definitely something I was guilty of until seeing
sevens versus fifteens. I think fifteens is what most people imagine rugby being related to football. 7 versus 7 is fall, 15 versus 15 is spring. It's a completely different game. The pace is different, but not a whole lot. I would say changes from an AT slash injury perspective. Sevens is a much shorter game and almost no stoppage for the entire game. That's when I would say it could be more quote stressful for an AT because there's so much going on.
My advice, Trust in your skills. Refer when you're certain you cannot rule out fracture or when you can, or when you have a concern of a concussion. Refs are very supportive of concussion protocol and will support you. Bizarre injuries happen all the time and it can have you questioning what you're seeing. Learn the rules and ask questions to ensure you're able to remove a player without
penalty. A lot of times you're doing an eval from the sideline when the play is not over, or you're evaluating on the field while the play continues around you if a player is down. I did not have a rotation where I learned rugby. I just started working per DM through a clinic and they cover a lot of rugby so I learned a lot from my supervisor. She then connected me with a
college team that needed an ATI. Asked the players what works for them as far as tape and tricks go, because there's so many. Yeah, that's really a really nice wrap up of the differences between the two. I work primarily 15 for the Union and it is very, very different. Sevens is very short. It's usually tournament style because the the matches are so short, you can do multiple in a
day and so it's very different. The one thing that is true for rugby is they don't stop play unless it's pretty serious or there's a natural stoppage like the ball goes out, there's a penalty, something like that. So you have to learn how to enter the field of play while play is going on to assess that player and then their substitution rules for rugby. Once you're subbed out, you're there's no re entering the match and then the coaches have limited number of substitutions
on top of that. So you can't just sub people because you're not sure. She mentioned sideline evaluations. That's only happening at like collegiate club and lower levels. Those are not happening at professional or international level. You're you're evaluating on field. So like listening to you guys on field episode was kind of funny because you know, a lot of times you guys are like, I never do function on field.
That's all I do on field because I have to decide can you play or not rule out emergent things or you know, deformity, that kind of stuff. And then are you functional And it's a quick boom, let's cut to the chase because if you're not functional, then you're coming off. So yeah. So it's very a good wrap up that
she mentioned about that. You know, I recommend if anybody's first starting out to like hop on to, I don't know if I'm allowed to plug this, but the World Rugby site has free online education modules that you can take. So you can learn about the game, like you can learn the rules of the game, but then there's also a whole medical track so you can learn that stuff. They they also offer courses
regionally that you can attend. So you know, first aid and rugby emergency, you know, immediate care and rugby, that kind of thing. So it it's a really good course to help you learn how to apply your medical background to the sport because it's very sport specific. Wow, that is such a cool resource. Yeah, I was going to say that's really cool that their their world organization like offers that.
That's really dope. Yeah. I mean, the courses and the certifications, obviously you have to pay to go to that course and, and that's more limited and they're only offered so often in so many cities. But the online education for part, if you sign up and you're looking online, you can learn that stuff and and take those courses. How did you get into rugby?
I grew up watching it. I had a Welsh grandparent that lived in the household with us since the time I was 6, so he was basically like a third parent. So I watched cricket and rugby and stuff like that, and then I actually quit working in university athletics and got a job and outreach hospital setting and we found out USA Rugby was coming to town to play an international match. We just reached out and like, hey, can we help support the
team while they're here? And then from there I've been involved ever since. So, you know, we heard that MLR was beginning a new professional league. Again, just some Internet sleuthing. Found out who was who got a meeting, you know, and, and kind of got into it that way on the medical side. So you know, when USA came for that first match like 10 years ago, they, they happen to be hosting one of those courses I mentioned. So we got into that course.
So I've been certified for level 2 since then, so for 10 years so. Yeah, that's pretty much how I got. Into it just, you know, a lot of business development opportunity sleuthing when I was working outreach, you know, trying to find a new Ave. for our hospital clinic. Yeah, you know, it's crazy like the like the differences that you were talking about, like I would never do functional on the field.
I mean, unless it's like baseball, softball, cause again, like they're it's, it depends on the substitution rule, like where you are in the game too. But the biggest thing that I was noticing when people were messaging was like, you just have to know how to be on the play what or be on the field while the play is still happening and not just like, yeah, that's just blowing my mind. That's crazy to me. Yeah, yeah. How do you manage that? You learn, you learn as you go.
I'm hoping to do a presentation soon on this, but I haven't heard so I can't talk about it, but I'm hoping to get some like footage of like our viewpoint on the field. So you know, in football you guys talked about that too, like where you stand in football, Are you at the ball? Are you behind the ball in rugby? Someone actually did kind of a little case report on it in one of the tournaments on like where to stand in rugby. And it's very different from football.
So essentially no matter who's on offense or defense, you want to stand on the offensive side. And you know, the, the field's pretty wide too. So it's going to depend on if you have one person covering the whole field for both teams or if you have two people like we do in our, you know, our professional level sport, we have two people on the sideline.
But essentially there's a certain way that you stand, so you can constantly see into the rocks or the contacts and then the ball, because the ball's moving backwards, right? It's not moving forward all the time because that's a like that's a turnover if the ball's moving forward unless it's kicked. So it's just a very different way of standing. But you want to stand where you can see into the contact all the time. But you know, one group might have gone into contact, they're
still on the ground. The ball's already moved to the next pod, we call it, Then it's moving again. But you still have to watch to make sure everybody's getting up from all these pods. So and it can move really quickly too. If there's a turnover, all of a sudden you're sprinting down while you're scanning back behind you to make sure everyone's getting up and coming
along. So you just kind of learn as you go. It's helpful to get a mentor like she said her, you know, her supervisor who'd been working rugby really helped her talk to the athletes and the coaches. They'll they're they're really want you to do it well because if you don't do it well, you can interrupt their games so or you can get hurt yourself. That's happened before to
people. So, yeah. So I would just, you know, if you're by yourself, talk to your athletes and your coaches and they'll kind of help you figure that out. And the referees, especially not in the professional level, like in the lower levels, if you go meet them in your medical timeout, that kind of thing, and just say, hey, man, I'm new to this. Like you just wave me on. Like they'll help guide you a lot because they know a lot of athletic trainers only work at
PRN or something like that. So they know that they don't really know the sport, right. But you just learn. I'm still stuck on the idea that you said one person covering both sides. Oh my gosh. Yeah, when I first started it was that way because, you know, it was a start up league. It's like the MLS year 1, you know what I mean? We just didn't have the, the staffing and the, and the finances and the rules yet.
So the first couple seasons I was by myself and it it's pretty brutal because the field is huge. It's a soccer field, so it's a lot. I could imagine. A lot, yeah. I I don't run because I'm not a runner, but on average I put in from the medical time out, which is 1/2 hour before kick off to the end of the match I put in about four miles. Wow, holy smokes. Yeah, that's a, that's an average. It depends on the field, you know, some are not regulation size here in the US and that
kind of thing. It depends on how fast the game is going or not, but that's about the average. That actually kind of leads into this one from Colby. T says be prepared to cover 7 to 12 miles per game of movement, which is an internal study Megan and I were looking into. Don't be surprised having play happen around you and literally have to lay on top to protect athletes during play as action
does not stop unless severe. If it's obviously severe enough to the official unconsciousness being the most common, they will stop play. But like said, he has to be like blatantly obvious that the that the emergency care is needed to take place for them to stop. Medical rarely makes the decision to stop the matches. It could be seen as an unfair advantage to the other team to halt play in a sense or give up a scoring opportunity due to a minor injury.
Oh, interesting. Yeah, so excuse me. So in our league, we can't enter the field of play when when a team is in the attacking 22 because if I if a guy goes down, he's like, Oh my shoulder and I go into play while the other teams trying to score, that could be seen as interference for that. So like Colby said, unless it's this guy is out cold on the field and we need to protect the player, they're not going to stop.
So in that instance you do, you just have to wait and be like, you're going to have to wait a minute. So or if the, you know, if the play moves on and it goes the other way, or if someone gets it out of bounds or they call down a penalty for a scrum or something like that, then you can go in. But if it's still moving and the game is still going, you're not going in. Wow, that's interesting. I I'm still trying to wrap my head around that. That's.
I don't know where Colby got 7 to 12 miles, though, because my field's bigger than anybody's field and I was averaging like 4, so I don't know what he was doing. Well, I think he was talking about the the is he is he
talking about? Mostly the athletes, I guess he was saying, I don't know, it sounds like he referenced cause him and I were doing kind of doing a pilot study on like like physio, like what we put in because we're not just sitting on a golf cart at a soccer game or on the sideline of football just moving 20 yards back and forth or whatever. So we were curious and there was no research out there. So we were kind of piloting that. That'd be that would be a pretty cool study actually.
Yeah, we were. I don't know, We might still publish it, but we, you know, there's a small data point and all. That's what we'll see. We're still talking to have it. I like it. That'd be cool to do. Like all the sports, you know, like baseball and softball, you're just going to sit in one spot. Yeah, I was going to say volleyball last night. It wasn't much movement at all. I'm sorry, You have the score table.
Yeah, pretty much. Sometimes they stick you with the score table and you're just sat there the whole time. So yeah, it's very different. I'm I'm moving. Right, right. Someone said be creative. Since you aren't allowed to brace, using only tape can be a challenge. Can you speak about that a little bit? Yes. So the way that they tackle and play is very, I, I don't know how to explain it. It's like a cross between tackling and wrestling. Like they're very much on each
other all the time. So bracing can be very like knee bracing. That kind of stuff can injure other players like much more than it could in like football, that kind of thing. Especially because the play is always moving. There's not stoppage all the time. So, so yeah, there's no bracing. There's a few things you can get away with, like maybe a, you know, a small thumb spica that's not, you know, that's padded or
something that's not very bulky. But like the casting you guys talked about football, that's not happening. You know, no one's casting for play in rugby and very few of them will even wear like a soft ankle brace even. So you're taping everything. So when we get students for their immersion, that's usually the first thing we're doing. Like way back when I took the boci had a knee taping like an MCL or something. I was thinking to myself, like,
when am I ever going to do this? And here I am. I do it every day. Like, you know what I mean? Like Fast forward 20 years, it's like every day I'm doing this. Shoulders are the same way. We do a lot of strapping for the shoulder, and it's very individual based on the players, too, because, you know, I know, Sandy, you were talking about football. Like, you love how unique each player has a different role. And in rugby, it's very similar to that. They very much have their own
role in the sport. And so they have to have different levels of mobility based on that. So yeah, it's very individualized on how you're doing it. And like, I'll make things up. I'll be like, what do you feel is wrong with this, you know, or where's your pain level or where is this restriction feeling? And we'll make it up on the fly. How does this feel? This isn't right. Great, let's try this tomorrow
until we get right. So sometimes I just make things up and my students are like, oh, where'd you learn that? I'm like, I just made that up. So I'm like, you just want to think of the anatomy and the Physiology and break it down to that and talk to your athlete and figure it out from there. So like, what are you functionally trying to achieve and how do I get it to be that way with this type of tape? Yeah, that's what I would always tell the students.
Like if you know your anatomy, like you, you pretty much got almost every tape job down. Like you could figure it out you. Got to figure out what's got to stop and what it's got to help. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, 100%. And then like us, we live in Houston, it's hot and humid, so some tapes just aren't going to cut the mustard. Like you do anything with white tape, it's coming off in like 2 minutes.
So you know what I mean? Unless it's an ankle or something, we're not really using that at all. Right, so Speaking of tape, the next thing that I asked on our Instagram was what is a must in your kit when you work rugby? And before I share some of these, I want to know what your thoughts are. OK, so I thought about this ahead of time so I knew you were going to ask. And it's what, 6 things gloves, gauze, 3 inch stretch, leuco tape, electrical tape or insulation tape.
If you have international players, that's what they'll call it, sticky spray. Oh, sticky spray. If you have those six things for match play, you're going to be fine. Everything else can be taken care of in the locker room at halftime or after the game practice. Obviously I'll carry a little bit more just because we have the time and they can come out of drills. But if it's a match like, you really only need those six things.
OK. That's like electrolyte stuff, which you know every athlete talks about. But if you're doing your nutrition right and your training right from like a neural response, you shouldn't need a lot of that stuff. Right, right. So on a case says wear gloves constantly. Be prepared to work faster than you've ever worked. Other must haves, sponges for head wounds and nubbins. Electrical tape for securing head bandages and securing
nubbins. Nubbins, that's a new one I get a lot of words for different booboos and injuries from. I am a nationally diverse group, but I haven't heard that one. Yet. Yeah, I was going to say I don't know what a nubbin is. Wait, let me look real quick because she I did ask. I was like, I don't know what a nubbin is. I said what is an oven? She said. It's a little piece that the Flyers tape to their knees for line outs. Oh, that we just call that a lifty block.
Oh, you know what? Someone else said the same thing. They said electrical tape for leg wedges. Yeah, leg wedges. So in rugby, if you watch it like there's two ways to re enter the ball. It's with a line out, which is, it's not like a soccer throne, but we'll call it that. So the guy that stands on the sideline is like his feet have to be touching the line, throws the ball in and both teams are lined up and it's very strategic.
So they have a lot of different calls on where they're going to throw the ball and they'll lift the guy in the air to catch the ball. And we're talking. So my team, I've got a 6/7 lock being lifted by another guy who's like 65 or another two guys who are 65. So they tape around their thighs and they'll use like a line out block or a nub. And I've just learned it's called also. And they'll use those to have somewhere to like grab on the front of their thigh.
And so it's a sport specific thing, you know, wide receivers, they need gloves, line out jumpers need lifters. So yeah, so that's why I have 3 inch stretch because that's like the best tape for that. And then electrical, they'll go above and below that lifting block to make sure that stays where they want it. A lot of the time some of them do. That's also a very individual thing. Like each athlete tapes his legs a certain way and they've got their own kind of lifting
blocks. One of my guys won't use like pre made lifting blocks. He'll like get the empty 3 inch stretch rolls and like bend them a certain way and use that as a block, which I'm like great, thanks for recycling that that way. So I always throw my ends for him. Oh. Nice. He knows where he knows where to go get his ends. So Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's. So funny. By far the most answered must have, I guess is gloves and gauze. Like by far, everyone said gloves and gauze.
They said everyone's there's gonna be blood everywhere. Electrical tape was definitely second. That's funny. And then the next few, it was kind of like a tie between power flex Afd, just like getting like having the little gauze on the power flex and then Leuco tape, Steri strips and Vaseline, which all kind of have to do with that blood and wound care, another blood, wound care, blood Buster
and cleaning spray. And then we had a couple ones that weren't as popular, just some runners up, tooth saver, Sam splints and slings. Oh 100% yeah. You have to have all of your emergency equipment like I, I do give presentations on emergency action planning timeouts and
then like on field care. And part of the reason is because I've, I've done so many, like I've, I've had doctors joke on my black cloud, like they'll work events with me and see things they've never seen in their entire careers before, things like that. Yeah. Like I had the spine board, a lumbar spine injury before. Like, you know, there was no other way to get them off. So here we go. We're we're going to board you and take you to secondary exam off field.
So yeah. So those things are must haves, like, obviously. But like the I think I answered by way of like typical like I'm reaching into my on person pack rather than my field kit if that makes sense. So then are you carrying a lot more in your on field since you're doing a lot more on field? Or no, I carry those things I mentioned and then I carry Opas and MP as that's it. That's pretty much that's pretty much all I have on me. Well, that's not true.
I'll have, I'll have skin Lube and nose plugs because those, I need to have those too, because usually I stick those. Usually I pre Lube a nose plug and wrap it in two gauze, stick that in one of my gloves and then I'll have just regular gauze in the other glove because you're wearing them constantly. So yeah, so I'll have that kind of stuff on it. But I, I don't have a very large field pack because I don't need
it during the match. Like if I need anything else they're already coming off anyway, right? And then they're just going to go get an exam by the doc or wait till post match. Nice. What do you use Lucca tape for? Because Lucca tape was pretty popular. Everything. I was going to say I love Lucca tape but I but I don't know too many other people who do. But that's what I when she was talking about the white tape just falling off, I was just like, oh, that's a Lucca right there.
Yeah, I mean, for us, because we're in a humid environment, like subtropical heat and humidity, it comes in handy for that. Like even a leuco tape comes off sometimes, which I remember in school being told never put it on the skin and that's a lie. Who came up with that? But I, I don't know. We use it for everything. We use it for our knees. We'll use it for shoulders, we'll use it for thumbs. We'll use it for, you know, any like collateral ligament restrictive taping, whether it's
an elbow or whatever. But The thing is to overseas they don't have white athletic tape readily available because they don't have athletic training. So a lot of them have Lugo tape available because that is the higher demand. So it's actually a lot cheaper over there. It's a kind of lift for supply and demand internationally. It's a lot cheaper to get Lugo tape and it's they call it rigid tape because it is more rigid
than white tape. So if you ever work with a random international athlete and they're like, oh, I usually get my ankles on a rigid tape or brown tape, they'll call it. So their, their expectation is more that it's that they don't understand how expensive it is here and how, you know, less available is it'll be on back order sometimes and things like that. So yeah, but yeah, we use it for everything. We'll fix boots with it too, which I don't like doing, but I'd rather them use electrical
tape for that. But just tell them to get new boots finally. For the for the boots, like do they have specific like rugby boots or like are they just kind of like, oh, like soccer boots or like anything like that? They do. They're harder to get here in the US, so, but they do, yeah, they do. The backs are much more like soccer players. They want like the smallest boots possible. They're kicking a lot, as well as like quick running movement.
And then the Fords, the Fords and the particularly the props, like they're doing scrummaging, which is really hard on their toes and their feet. So they want a bulkier boot. So some of them will wear a football boot if they can't find it, like a rugby boot. But usually, I mean, I don't, I've worked a lot of club and stuff, but it's been a while now since I have because I've been with my professional team for seven years now. But I don't really remember at
club level what they're wearing. So I'd have to defer to a club level expert on that. But my guys are typically in their rumpy boots and then like their scrummaging boots are different than their regular boots because they have like much longer metal studs for match player scrums. Just because the amount of force that goes through, they can't wear just the little plastics, they'll slide right out from the room. Oh wow.
So yeah, so like at practice, if they're going to go do scrummaging, they all sit down and change their shoes. OK. That's pretty funny. Man, the things you like have no idea if I'm. Seriously, it's really cool just to see just how each sport is unique and just like the different culture and like vibe. It's really cool. Yeah, 100%. That's one thing I love about this job, right?
Like we just, you never know what our day is going to be like and then you never know where your career is going to end up and all of that. So it's great. That give me chills too. Right, right. I never thought I'd be working in professional rugby and you know, you know, had a medical of a team for this long and that kind of stuff when I was first starting out, so it's cool, you know. It's it's funny where the Road Rd. takes you. Yeah, we just have to be open
the opportunities, kids. That's so true. Absolutely. So true. So let's talk injuries. Oh, fun. So I did ask what is the most common injury that you've seen in rugby? Obviously was very varied. Lacerations and blood, open wounds were especially the face were the top answer, followed by concussions, which was also interesting because some people were very like adamant that concussions were one of their top injuries.
And then some people were like, I actually see fewer concussions because of the tackling techniques and stuff. So it was kind of like back and forth between that, but it was a top injury. AC joint sprain, shoulder dislocations followed by ankle sprains and knee injuries. Yeah. So I would say everything, literally everything head to toe. I think the concussion debate is a good one. I think it depends on the level of ability of your players that makes. Sense.
If they're, it's just like middle school football, I will never work middle school football. Like that makes me more nervous than working a professional rugby match from like a catastrophic injury standpoint. You know what I mean? Like there's skill, isn't there? You've got one kid that's 180 lbs and another kid that's 80 lbs. It's the whole thing. So I think for that I would potentially look at like the ability of like, you know, are they a Division One club?
Are they division two? Have they played before? Is it a beer league where it's about the old dudes coming up with, you know, their coolers every weekend? That kind of stuff can really vary. Like I've seen very interesting things on the club side. So yeah, for us, I don't think it's been, I mean this past season we had quite a few, but typically we don't have a lot knock on wood, touch wood right now. From Kevin, We have a cool one from Kevin, he says.
I think having an athlete get his ear ripped off his head wins me the prize this week. So I'm evaluating another athlete for an ankle injury. He comes up, hey, I think I might have a concussion because it's hard to hear out of my one ear. I didn't look up. I just said, OK, hold tight, you're next. Finished with ankle and he was kind of facing away from me. So I said OK, tell me what's going on. He turns and faces me and his ear is hanging off his head.
He did not even realize it. Turns out he was in a scrum and someone reached up to pull him and grabbed his ear. This is why they tape their ears. Turns out he got to the field late and just forgot to. I wrapped him in gauze and pointed him towards the ambulances we had there. It was a huge tournament. Also, there's my first ever PRN event. I had worked after I was certified. Oh my gosh, welcome to the profession. Yeah, seriously. Which ripped ears was actually
also pretty common. That's interesting. Do you not get a lot of those? The facial lacerations is definitely valid. Like I, yeah, we get a lot of that. It just, it's kind of like boxing. Your face just splits open when you get a lot of contacts and things or you're tackling shoulders or things like that. Occasionally you'll get a boot flying where it shouldn't fly and you'll get cut that way.
I had a guy get really good one and he had like a puncture right above his eyebrow and then the other cleat like basically followed his entire part down the center of his head. He had quite a few stitches that match and he was not happy because that's very rare for like a boot to be that high up. It should have been a red card at the time, but we won't talk about that. So you know, we'll get a lot of that stuff. You know the thing before you
get everything. So like the day-to-day practice stuff, you'll get your sprain strains, all that kind of stuff. AC sprains are definitely common, but pretty much any catastrophic injury that can happen can happen in rugby, which is why I think those courses are so great. I mean, I've had really rare injuries too, like I've had a Rolando's fracture of a thumb. I've, you know, had a guy go out and he was like holding his thumb.
And if they need you to come out like this is the other thing opposite of soccer Excel. So you know, you guys are talking about flops in soccer. That does not happen in if they need you, they take a knee and that indicates to everyone they need you out there. So if they take a knee, you know, it's you need to look at them and they are not doing that casually, right? They are, they're not just winded or whatever. So. You don't play. You're coming out.
Yeah, they don't do that. So I went out there and I was like, what's going on? He was like my thumb. So I was palpating and I got to the base of his thumb that just the base of the medical Medicare ball and it like crumbled in my hand. And I was like, you fractured your thumb? And he was like, no, it's fine, I can play, I can play. And I was like, no, like it's fractured in multiple places. You need to come off because he was also the guy that throws the ball in line, which is fun.
Fun fact, that guy's called the hooker so that it crumbled in my hand and he's like, no, I'm fine, I'm fine. It got up and ran back into play. So play starts back up. OK. Like I can't like physically take him off the field, so I just run back off the field of radio. The coaches like, hey, he's out. Like it's a like we need a sub. It's a red, get the next guy ready and he's like, but he's playing. I said the minute he touches the rugby ball, he's done promise like and sure enough, like 2
plays happened. He didn't have touched the ball and then the ball went out of balance and he had to throw it in and it went like sideways. And then he just turned around and walked straight to me. He's like, yeah, I'm done. So and it was like crazy. And like once I got on the hand surgeon for imaging and all that, he's like, this is 1% of all gum injuries. Oh my gosh. And so he had, you know, he had to have surgery, had to have it repaired. He's still playing after that,
like after it healed. But it was like, it literally like crumbled in in my palpation. That was a good one. I had a really rare direct axillary nerve injury. So typically when you have like a direct blow to the axillary nerve, the shoulder dislocates. So the guy takes a knee. I get out there to the field and he's like, Megan, I dislocated my shoulder. So I'm like, OK, palpate his shoulder. I'm like, it's not dislocated, man.
Like this is in place like because if it was, I'd just pop it back in. He was, he was like, no, it's dislocated. I was like, guy, like it's not dislocated. Like I'm my hands are on your shoulder. It's fine. So I'm like palpating around. And so I just go into functional testing and it just wasn't right. So I was like, just come off. He's like, yeah, it's dislocated. And so he went to the doctor. I was like, this is not dislocated.
Your shoulder's fine. But it turns out he, he, he had the direct low, the axillary nerve. He ended up having deltoid atrophy long he ended up having to have a distal tricep X-ray nerve transfer surgery, which wasn't even available seven years ago. There was like only two surgeons in the country that could do the surgery And he came back to play after that and it was really cool. But it's super rare cause usually the axillary nerve gets injured, the shoulder dislocates
too. So like every surgeon he saw was like your sure this shoulder didn't came. We're like yes, we promised we got all the imaging like his shoulder MRI was like clean, no inflammation, nothing and all axillary nerves. So that was an interesting one. This last season we had a scapula fracture. Oh, interesting. And it was not that painful. It was the body of the scapula and it just was like from a direct contact flow to like the top of the shoulder.
How did that present? He was just like, my shoulder hurts, but it's like my back and there was no deformity or anything like that. So he had to pick it up on imaging. He wasn't even that like limited functionally, but he's just like something's wrong. Turns out he had a scapular fracture and it it was, you know, kind of up by the coracoid process. I don't know if the body actually, it was up there, but it wasn't all the way through. It wasn't displaced. So yeah, it was pretty interesting.
That was a very one too. So did they sling him or did? Was there, Yeah, I mean, he was limited his, he was in a sling. But I mean, as long as he wasn't like elevating to get into that coracoid motion up there, it was fine. So like he was limited to like 30° motion I think at first and then he was back. I think he played. I think we cleared him for match like like 5 weeks later. So yeah, I think he only missed four or five matches. OK, OK. Cool. So yeah, that was an interesting one too.
I've never seen one of those so. Mandy, do you want to read this one from Josh B? Yes, Josh says. Player got his face stepped on, Ouch, cleated and had his tragus little ear notch torn, almost complete, almost clean off. There was so much blood and it was my first game as a student. I thought his eardrum ruptured. He was bleeding out so much that it pulled in his ear that he could not hear out of that side.
I believe initially we used non sterile gauze to take up the excess blood then drained it out of his ear onto onto the field. We then slapped some non adherent gauze and light plast around his head to go get to go for stitches. We made him go to the hospital and not the bars as was his plan. The game we the game. We actually had a few we had to send to the hospital, a couple sets of stitches and one dropkick blocked by the crotch. Well, see, that's a bummer. The plan was ruined.
He was going to go to the bomb. I mean club rugby's different. It's they and actually even our professional league, it's a very cultural thing with rugby. There's a post match social afterwards so even at like international and professional level both the teams come together and have beers and food and they usually give each other like man of the match award or something like that. That's really cool. Yeah, so I forget what the saying is.
Like it's a game of Barbarians played by gentlemen, like, 'cause they don't, you know what I mean? Like it's a barbaric game. But then they come together and like, hey, man, like, how are you doing afterwards? And then they, it's not like hockey or basketball. They don't talk to the refs poorly. That's nice. Yeah. So like you can get carded if you're cussing at the ref so they have the most polite arguments ever on the field. It's funny. A lot of.
People, So I could see that he'd be bummed not to go to the post match social for that for sure. That's definitely part of the experience. But yeah, it's interesting. We did get a lot of people messaging about the socials and I had no clue what they were talking about, but well, there you go. Yeah, also I love how first game as a student look at that learning opportunities. Yeah, I had. I was working a like a collegiate club game and I had APM and R resident who was
interested in sportsmen. So she was shadowing or coming to help work because she wanted to do a sports fellowship. So obviously she needs experience for that application. And she, it was her first time working with me. And I was working for a university that's like kind of nerdy. And they were playing this like really beefy farm town college from across the state. And this kid just got sandwiched between the ground and this very
large guy. And he and he ended up with a clavicle fracture, a scapula fracture and a pneumo. And she came running over and she could just tell it was serious. And she was just like, what do I do? Even though she's a resident physician, she was like, just tell me what to do. She was like, I'm out of my comfort zone here and I was like, take vitals, call 911. I'll manage the actual arm itself. Like, so you know, call the Ms.
the whole deal. But she went on to be in attending sports PM and R Oh, I love that. Yeah. She she was like, thanks for getting me through that first day. Like so yeah, that was her first day. You're like, this is so beyond what I'm used to. But she did great because some doctors will come in and be like, I can pretend to handle this and she was just like just tell me what to do because this is out of what I was asking. That's really good self-awareness because that's
true. Like some doctors might come in like that, like just come in with that certain energy. So that's pretty cool. I'm a doctor. I can handle this. But she was like, no, this is not what anything I've ever trained for. So I'm going to, I'm going to see what she needs. You know, I've learned to everyone says like fake it till you make it, fake it till you make it.
And I think that's there's value in that, but also there's value in accepting what you don't know and being vulnerable enough to ask slash brave enough to ask. You know, and talking about rugby, we've talked about that, right? Like ask your athletes, ask the coaches, talk to the referees, like let them know where you are with the sport because it is so unique to other sports. You're not just sitting on the sideline like you're an active part of the match.
So letting them know like, hey, man, this is my third match. Like, what do you guys need from me? You know, this is my comfort level. Do you have this on site? And that's where those medical timeouts are so important for every event, you know, whether it's your, you know, 90th match with the team or whatever, you know, the other athletic trainers are not like, that's why those are so important because even things like that can help, you know, what are their expectations of you and
vice versa. Right, we have another one from Ana Kay. She said she has a horizontal fracture of the Patella after being tackled from behind. It was not originally completely fractured all the way through, but the athlete stood up while trying to keep her still and it snapped with the first step. Top half shot 1/4 way up the quad. Immediate surgery to approximate the ends. She was returning from ACL tear the year prior to Dang. I kind of actually had a similar
situation recently. We had a player that had a partial star tendon rupture. Surgical repair got him back to play. First match back to play, he just had like this weird tackle and kind of got like helicoptered around. So like his legs came up off the ground and like he spun around and he landed right on his Patella and fractured his tunnel from the pasar tendon repair. It just fractured the Patella and they were like what?
And he played for like another 10 minutes or something on it and then was like, I don't know, it's just not right. And it came off but then wouldn't didn't come see us post match because usually like if they have any injury, they couldn't see us. Post match came in two days later for the exit medical and his Patella was fractured in half. And I was like, what?
What you've been like walking? He's like, I haven't been walking that much, but like I knew something was wrong and I was like, why didn't you see us, like right then? He just never, I think he thought it was his patellar tendon and not the Patella. I don't know. But I was just like, what are you doing, Mandy? Like walking around for two days? That's rugby right there. They do stuff like that. And you're like, what? Like how is this possible?
Like, And they usually call me on Sunday if it's something more serious. They're like, hey, Meg, like I got to see you tomorrow morning. This is what's going on. And I don't know, because it's interesting. I was like, I can't believe you just didn't even tell us. You just walked in like that. Right, right. Like I literally palpated his Patella and I was like, we need an X-ray. And then I got my student. I was like, you got to feel this.
And the doc just looked at me and I was like, I was like, it's fractured. Wow. Sure enough, all the way through. Wow. I had someone take a baseball pitch straight to the kneecap and he was fine. Oh, that's impressive. I mean, they usually fracture like that. Like it's a pretty strong bone. It's really shaped. It doesn't typically fracture, so it's impressive when they do. Right, right. That's great. I bet it hurt. Yeah, he collapsed pretty quick. Yeah.
You know what? He actually also didn't swell. So I was like how how I mean, I did I only say it was a visiting athlete. So I only saw him like right at like right as it happened, I compressed him in case later, but like I have no idea how he's I mean he's going to stiffen up, but I was surprised it and just like balloon up right there. Yeah, or at least the bone bruising the next couple, you know, that probably hurt. That's impressive though, like taking balls like that. Yeah.
Yeah, that's crazy. We have an anonymous one. An athlete lost a whole tooth. Both teams helped us look for it after the game. That's nice. That's. Cute. I guess right before the social right. Yep, they help each other out like that for sure. Yeah, most the time. There's sometimes they don't, but most the time they do. Yeah, we get like in football where like our AD will come down and be like we are not shaking their hands. Make sure to keep them apart.
We are not going to go over to that other side. Make sure that they're always separated after the game. Make sure everyone knows. Oh wait, man, you got to be good sports. I don't know. Seriously, You just. It's. Oh, go ahead. I was just going to say, you've spent all that time beating the hell out of each other. Yeah, but it's a respect thing. Like that's what they're there to do. That's your job, right?
You've signed up to do that, whether you're professional athlete or youth, like you've committed to performing that piece of things. So you just respect the other person for giving it their all for sure. Have you found that that respect is kind of throughout the different levels or is it like a culture thing? Yeah, very much is. It's very similar to lacrosse in that way. Like once you're, you know, like once you're relaxed person, you're relaxed person, everybody
kind of respects you for that. Rugby's very similar to that. It's very, it's very much like a rugby culture thing. Like once you're in it, you're in it and you're part of it and that respect is there. So that's one of the things I love about it too. Like if, you know, now that I've been in the league so long, you know, I've got players that play on almost every other team now. So post match, when everybody comes in and shakes hands, like I'll, you know, you know, hey,
how's it going? How's your, how's your daughter's, what, 3 now? Like, you know, we'll have those kind of chats at post match and that kind of stuff. So yeah, it's really nice. That's one of the things I enjoy about it, you know, and every morning they come in, everybody comes and says good morning. So it's a handshake, a fist bump, a hug. Like, you know, I've got one guy comes in and gives me a big hug every morning.
It's, it's, you know, it's, it's really nice to just have that interaction because in a normal athletic training room setting, you might not see them until you get out to practice, you know what I mean? But, but in our space, everybody's kind of in the same space. Everybody sees everybody that day. You can immediately say, oh, that guy's not here today. What's going on, coach? You know what I mean? So it's it's a a little bit more family feeling.
How many people are on a like team and does it change? Like if you're actually a follow up question, did the same people play sevens and fifteens or like you only work fifteens right? I only work fifteens. Athletes can crossover between those two sports. It's typically, it's not every kind of athletes, it's typically your backs that are crossing over some of like your forwards, like your, your, your sevens and eights. Some of them will cross over to
fifteens as well. I mean sevens, but usually they're just playing the one version at a time. So like I've had guys that came from 7th, they played 15 for a year or two and then they've gone back to sevens.
Usually they'll have a preference and it'll just depend like logistically why they're playing, which one or the other or professional goal wise, you know, if I want to make the Olympics, it has to be sevens because fifteens is not in the Olympics but sevens is. I don't know if you guys follow Ilona Meyer now because everybody seems to after the Olympics, you know. So there is some crossover
there, but not a ton. Actually, I'm glad you brought that up because I was going to ask that, you know, especially after, you know, the Olympics, you know, I feel like rugby has grown a lot more popular probably probably in the last decade, even maybe probably sooner. And then I think that Olympic performance is only going to make it a little bit more popular in the US. How much have you seen the game just change? Like just from like maybe resources available or even just
popularity over the years? I've definitely seen it grow from starting with our team, you know, because it's a National League. So we come and play in LA and San Diego, Seattle, you know, Boston, areas like that. So you know, from year one to last season, like definitely people stop us in the airport more often. They're like you guys are on the shuttle bus, you know, to the parking at the airport. Like are you guys with the rugby
team or sell the logo? So that never happened the first couple seasons, you know what I mean? So like just from an anecdotal standpoint, I can see that growth happening. You know, we're in newer leagues, so it's not totally stable. We've had teams come in and out for franchises, but the core 7 are still there and and we're definitely growing. We see more fans in the stadium. It didn't help we had COVID year 3, so we literally had five matches and then it cancelled
the year after that. Half the city still couldn't have fans. So that kind of hurt us in terms of league growth right when we were starting out. But in general, it's definitely improved. I think the Olympics did a really good job of showcasing the women's game because the women's rugby has been around for a long time and they've been very successful.
And I just don't think people even knew that women played rugby until all this media attention came on from the Olympics. And I think that has really been great because you know, it's they're they're the same game that is just, you know, different athletes are playing them. And so it's really exciting. So I think locally we've seen a lot more like even our, you know, our team does like offseason, we'll do like clinics with the youth and programs in the in the area.
And we've had a lot of girls signing up that we didn't have the previous year. So that's really great to see. You know, and then and then just from a fan standpoint, it's a fun game. They're fast, they're exciting. Whether it's sevens or fifteens, even fifteens, it's 80 minutes, much like soccer, it's 80 minutes at the halftime. There's not really a stoppage, but you get the contact and collision like you get with football. So it's really exciting to come watch and everybody's drinking
beer and tailgating. And if you sit next to somebody with an accent, they will happily tell you all the rules. You know what I mean? Like they want you as excited about rugby as everybody else. So. So it's really a fun experience on and off the field. So yeah, we're excited with all the attention that the Olympic spots. For I bet, I bet. Is there a big difference that you've noticed between the men's
and women's game? I did work a bit of women's fifteens, not really like I, you know, I think it just depends on your coaching staff and like what style game that they're running mostly. So you know, obviously men are going to have a little bit bigger hits, a little bit faster because physiologically they are, but the women's game is just as exciting, just as hard hitting, just as fast like it, you know, especially when you have like elite high quality
rugby. So you know, you know, they're starting a women's. There is some women's professional rugby in the country. So if you're interested, go check it out. There's a new league starting up as well. So, you know, it's out there and a lot of these players never played until high school or after. So it's never too late to get into it, I guess is what I'm saying. Like, you know, if you played other sports and still want to be active and try sport, give
rugby a try. That's what they say, because our touchdowns are called tries. So they say, give rugby a try. You know, that is one thing that when I was sorting through these messages, I was like, there are so many things like line outs. I was like, I have no, no. So I like, I went and watched a bunch of rugby clips cause I've never seen rugby.
So like I went and watched a bunch try to figure out like kind of like the basics of like what, what even is this other world of a sport that I've I've heard of obviously, but never have really delved into. And it just was, I think, I think line outs was the first one that I had looked up. And so just to see someone be lifted off the floor and like, that's how they that's part of their play. It was, I was like, what is this? This is like a complete new world.
Yeah, that and scrums are really cool. And I mean, I've worked almost every sport in my career and I think the only one I really haven't worked is ice hockey. But it's so incredible, those two sport, I don't know what the word is. I'm looking for like strategies are really, really interesting to me. And the like the scrum, just the amount of force that goes through that scrum is incredible. And that their strategy involved in it.
And that the the hooker, the guy in the middle in the front, he has to hook the ball through to get possession and then the line outs too. Yeah, like the and those are the two most dangerous parts of the game too. So as the AT on the pitch, like I've really got to be paying attention to all parts of that because like I said before, I've got a guy that's 6-7 being lifted up by 26564 guys in the air who's jostling against the defender, also lifted in the air
by his teammates. They can be drops, you know, contact can happen in the air, things like that. So that can be a potentially very catastrophic situation. Same thing if a scrum collapses, you know, those those props are the three guys in the front. If they collapse and don't collapse properly, you can, you know, snap a neck or something
like that. So they, you know, that's why those those guys have to be identified as capable of being in the front prior to the match, like on the roster, because you can't just put another guy in the front because they they don't really know what to do there and it's dangerous for them. So yeah, it's really cool. Those parts of the sport. That's cool. And I think the kicking part of the sport's underrated too. Like it's very strategic when they kick, how they kick, that
kind of thing. So yeah, I'm glad there's so many out there that have worked. It was exciting to hear. When you said what, 52% or something. I was excited about that. I thought it was going to be
less. You know, I think I, I know that like when I was working a lot of per DM, like there were a lot of rugby opportunities that it like, I think because I think because of it's not usually associated with like a college or like someone who has like a a permanent AT it looked like there was a lot of like per diem, like they're always looking for someone who's not like associated with them, like they're looking for someone elsewhere, you know, So I think
a. 100%. Yeah, the per diem community is really. And I've noticed too, like students are getting a lot more rotations with like club sports at schools and they tend to have rugby. So like. Oh, really? Yeah, like. Especially in California, like California is the most saturated rugby community in the country, so. Oh, that's interesting. Like if you look at USA Rugby membership across the country, like they have the most for sure.
They have more clubs, there's more collegiate teams in California. So especially if you're in California, there's a lot of opportunity there, but I would challenge any athletic trainer who feels like they need to sharpen their on field skills a little bit to sign up and work some rugby. Cuz getting thrown in and having a ear ripped off your first day, stuff like that.
That kind of stuff doesn't happen every day, but if you feel like that's an area of your skill set you need to sharpen, go pick up some rugby shifts because it'll it'll sharpen your own field skills for sure. Yeah, there's plenty. There's plenty of per DM available. I was. Going to say there's plenty of opportunities. Yeah, yeah. And it's it's exciting, it's fun. It's not for everybody. Like, you know, some people would rather work soccer all day.
That's not something I think I could do. Again, something would kill me. I'd be like, get off so, or now that you're down, you're coming off. So, yeah. So I don't know if I'd have the patience for that anymore now that I've worked rugby for so long. But but yeah, it's, it's been, it's been good. It's been interesting. It's it's been good to me. I've seen a lot of random injuries. You know, like I said, I have a
spy board of that lumbar spine. And afterwards asked my travel doc, I was like, did I do the right thing here? Was that two extra? And he's like, no, like that's what you had to do. Like there's no other way to get them off the road. It's like, OK, thanks for making me feel better about that. So I was like, really like, as it was happening, I'm like, really? I can't believe it's Spy morning. A lumbar spine right now, Right, Right.
I can't believe it's happening because we're on TV and everything, you know what I mean? Like, so in the moment I was like, is this really necessary? But it was so. Did they stop the game for that? Yeah, they have to stop the game for that stuff. So yeah, if it's pretty serious, they'll stop the game and they just, they just stop time. They don't add injury time, they'll just stop the clock. So yeah, for stuff like that,
they'll stop the game. And we had, you know, in like going through our World Rugby stuff. Like we all have the same system. So no matter which team you're working with, we all have the same emergency system on, like how we handle those injuries. So it's like kind of all hands on deck, everybody comes in and we just get it done. So, yeah, so that's good. Sweet, is there anything else you wanted to touch upon or anything that we missed? I don't think so.
I think I just encourage everybody, like I said, to give it a try and especially if you feel like that's an area of your skill set that you need improving. You'll get that improvement in your skills by working rugby. And even if you don't want to work it as a medic, come out and give it a try. Like come be a fan, like come on out to some of our matches and and get into it because it's really exciting sport too. And I'm most athletic trainers.
We love sport anyway. So, you know, even if you don't want to work it and it's not your cup of tea, like come on out. Because it's a fun fan experience too. Absolutely. I think it's time for us to go watch some rugby now. I'd. Be down, I'd catch. I'd catch the clips during the Olympics. Oh yeah, I did. Caught some highlights. Didn't actually catch the full game. Yeah, that's Sevens though, so you've got to come check out Fifteens. Too. Yeah, because I don't think I've seen fifteens.
I think I've only seen sevens. Yeah, and in sevens they don't really do scrubs and line outs to the same intensity that we do. They don't have enough players. Yeah, like a scrum is 8 per side and fifteens and they like it's sevens. So right, they do it a little bit different in that sport. Yeah, but yeah, come on out, give rugby a try, everybody. See, like even before this I wouldn't have known that rugby had two different like sevens
and fifteens. Now like the next time I see rugby or if I go watch like I'll be able to to be like, oh, this is what we're talking about with sevens or now I want to go see fifteens or you know. Yeah, I had no context because I always heard of rugby sevens, so obviously if they're labeling it sevens, there's another thing. But I was like, I don't know what that other thing is, but now I know. Yeah, well, thank you guys for having me on.
This was really awesome to have an opportunity to sit and talk rugby for an hour. No thank you. I learned shoot learned a lot. That was really cool. So there was a lot of just learning from this episode or just about rugby in general. But I think this story really like makes me think of my favorite rugby memory, which is when I was a student, we had a club rugby team that when they had games on our campus, they had to have an AT covering.
And I guess the AT that they had like something came up, they couldn't make it. And it was like day of the game, like within two hours of the game, the AT wasn't going to make it. So one of their players came into our athletic training room. We're closing up, like we're finishing up and they're asking anybody like, can you just cover this game? We'll pay whatever, whatever. Our basketball AT who's been working basketball for years, right? D1 basketball, right?
He's now indoor AT basketball guy, right, right. Was like, all right, I'll do it. So he goes out there and does it and like whatever that like it was an evening game. So we finish up our studying and stuff like that. We were going to start heading home, but we figured how the games are also going and we saw the lights on. So we're like, hey, let's go, let's go see how he's doing. So we so we go down there and we're like, hey, how's it going?
And just the look on his eye, he's like, dude, I had this one guy that shouldered. He's back out there dislocation. I already had to put someone in like steri strips like just that wide eyed look. It was just like, not that like obviously couldn't like obviously handled it right, but it's just the. All at once. Yeah, the what the hell is this? This is a war zone. That. That's always my favorite memory. That's pretty funny.
I didn't know that story. Yeah, you may remember who it might be because they did our basketball episode. So you could probably just imagine, based on that conversation in that episode, just the personality and putting that in rugby so. It worked out. I love that we love Kyle. He's a good dude. Yeah, I, I don't think I could ever handle working rugby. So I commend anyone who is willing to put themselves in that situation. You guys are amazing.
Like we said, and like Megan said before, I think one of the biggest things to learn rugby various, I mean, apart from just like a new sport in general, but like rugby specifically. Because there's so much and so many intricacies and so many things is really having a mentor or supervisor or someone who can learn from and know exactly when to go out and you know all the what to do beyond the medical care, right? Because the medical care, you know that part.
Yeah, Yeah, that's true. So we do have several types of episodes here on AT Corner. This one was a story episode that we Co hosted with Megan. We also have education episodes that Randy heads. He reads a lot of articles. Thank you so much to AT chat and Clinically pressed. They're available for Cus. Make sure you check those out. We also have various topics that we have interviews on.
And then we also have other CU opportunities that you can find in the show notes, especially like Medbridge. There's a code in there for $150.00 off. So make sure you Scroll down, reach out to us AT Corner Podcast on Instagram. And I think that's all I have. That's perfect. Thank you for helping us showcase athlete training behind the tape. Bye.