255: Can Teens Really Study While Scrolling?

Tell me a parenting issue everyone struggles with with tweens and teens, but no one talks about. Rina, I think a lot of people feel like they just don't know how to connect to their kid anymore. I'm Rena Nainen and welcome to Ask Lisa the psychology of raising tweens and teens. And I'm Dr. Lisa Damore. We bring you science backed strategies. Discipline, intense emotions.

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Episode 255 contains Really Study While Scrolling. All right, the technology battle never ends. It never ends. But I I also have to admit, like I think it's the time of year where you're it's cold and you're just like doom scrolling all the time on your phone.

You can be. You definitely can be. I think um especially when teens are in the I call it the armpit of the school year, January, January, February, you know, that their homework can start to feel tedious and they do not always give it its They're totally full attention. So I want to get to this about talking about studying and scrolling uh is a is a letter that a parent raised here. Dear Lisa and Reno.

I'm the parent of a ninth-grade girl who insists she studies best while multitasking, stopping to look at TikTok, listening to her music, her phone buzzing with group chats. When I question what she's doing, She points out that her grades are excellent, which they are, but from my perspective, it seems to make her work take longer and her focus sless. I don't want a micromanager, but I'm worried that this habit is getting in the way of real learning.

Is this just how teens study now, or can I push her to adapt healthier study habits without turning the whole thing into a nightly battle? Thanks for your help.

a concerned parent. Oh my gosh, so many parents I know struggle with this because first off, there's a piece of technology in the bedroom, like it's the music piece that they wanna have. But I'm always thinking, Lisa, You need to learn how to study without all these things going on. Am I right about that? A hundred percent. A hundred percent. So

I love this letter because I think it's something that so many families are dealing with and it's really hard to argue with or hard to know how to intervene, especially like this kid's doing well academically, right? So that that can even make it that much harder if your kids

struggling academically, I think people feel like they've got more of a foot to stand on, but this is a big issue and this is an important thing that we really want to deal with. Okay, so my question for you, Rena, where do your kids do your their homework? in their room. And I did it too when I was growing up. I needed a space where nobody is talking to me and a quiet zone, right? Yep. And it can really work. It can work for kids to do their homework in their room.

For exactly the reasons you articulate, that sometimes kids just need a place where there's not a lot going on and it's quiet. And um if it's working, it's working. If the kid is focused, the kid's focused. Right. That's the argument for being in their room is that this is where I can focus. I will tell you both of my daughters have done the high school at the dining room table.

the dining room table, I just turn it over, I put a big tablecloth on it, and that's where they do high school. So my older daughter who's now in college and my younger daughter who's in ninth grader like this kid. Um and it creates, I think, a little bit of um pressure. to not be multitasking digitally because like an adult could walk by at any minute. Um And it also for kids who feel too alone in their room or too isolated.

I find the dining room, if you have one, I mean we certainly don't use ours very much. Like it's a place where they can feel like they're not entirely alone, but they're also not right in the middle of the traffic pattern of family life, at least the way our dining room is configured.

In issues that teens and tweens go through, how big of a deal is this? Do you hear about this often of parents talking about this? I actually think I think it's not a big deal, but I think it's very common. Like so, you know, like relative to other stuff that teenagers struggle with, this is like a frustration. But I think it's really common. And I think this letter writer is on the right track.

The kid's doing well, but I still don't feel ready to drop it. And I and I think, you know, she she started to talk about the ways in which, you know, is this gonna get in the way of her academics? And what we know is that It doesn't matter who interrupts you, it still destru disrupts your studying. So if my kid or your kid is working in a focused way and then we burst into the room and start talking.

That stops their train of thought, they lose where they were, their likelihood of making mistakes goes up, and they are slowed down in getting the work done. An interruption that a kid does to themselves, where they switch gears and they go look on TikTok, has the exact same impact. It doesn't matter where the interruption comes from. So this parent's right that this is not ideal.

You know, that was my next question. Are all interruptions equally bad? I I it drives me nuts. that they want to listen to music while reading because I'm like, how focused can you be if you're starting to learn? And and the thing in my house is like, oh, I just need a little background music to be able to work. But I'm wondering, is that a bad thing that they've got to have that to be able to study or do their homework? So this is actually a really cool question, like an interesting one because

It's not all bad. And the way we want to think about it, Rena, is like in terms of mental bandwidth, right? That we all have a certain amount of mental bandwidth. And um music fills up some of it. And what's interesting is music with lyrics fills up more of it because there's just more sort of cognitive processing that has to happen. And it is absolutely the case that there are some tasks that kids are doing that don't require their whole bandwidth.

If their bandwidth is not taken up, they're actually more likely to interrupt themselves. So like if a kid is reading something, a reading actually should take up much of the most of the bandwidth, but like sometimes kids still get worksheets that, you know, just are sort of dopey and they don't take much energy. And reading, you know, doing listening to music while they're doing something that they don't have to really focus on that hard.

may actually be the thing that lets them get through it. Um, Rena, you know I knit. Like knitting's like my hobby. I knit all the way through all my meetings in grad school. um it was actually how I could pay attention to what was going on is that I needed something to be doing with my hands to fill up just enough bandwidth so that I could then um, you know, we'd have these very long clinical case conferences.

So I like made sweater after sweater through these conferences and it was actually how I could focus. And same for my stats classes. I actually was better able to learn the math if my hands were busy with knitting. So I think it's um it's a bandwidth question that you actually want to talk kids through. And if what they're doing is hard and challenging, they may not be able to take up bandwidth with music and get the work done, but they may have a point on some easier things.

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You know, the the letter writer here says that the students' grades are in fact good. What about that? I think that's a point, right? The kids got a point. Um I think if I were the parent in these shoes, what I would probably say is That means that the work you're doing now doesn't require all of your firepower. That m hopefully will not be true for much longer, right? That you're gonna get to a point where you actually do need your your full bandwidth.

Um, the other way that we could approach this as a parent is to say, I hear you, but I bet it's taking you longer than it needs to because you are interrupting yourself. So, you know, yeah, you're getting the outcome, you're getting it right. Um, I think you make the longer argument. And I actually think even if the kids are grades are good, what we know is that if you're constantly interrupted, no matter how the interruption happens, you make more errors.

Um and so either this kid is having to go back and fix stuff. Or her grades are not yet showing the impact of these errors. But I think that's the argument a parent could make on this as they sort of work their way through it is look, either this is going to be unsustainable because the work's going to increase, and or You could actually be watching more TV and getting more sleep if you studied in a focused way and just got it done. You'd make fewer errors, you'd move much faster.

What about the fact that a lot of her work is on the computer for so many students that is the case? Right, this is the big thing. Right. This is the thing that makes it so hard is it's like it's not like when you and I were growing up and it's like your textbook and your notebook and there's nothing, you know, if somebody called your parents would answer and say she's studying, oh she'll call you back, right? I mean it's not like that anymore.

Um, I think there's a couple things that can happen. You know, one is they probably don't need their phones to be doing their homework. Right. So I would get the phone out of the picture if you can, um, though I want to come back to it because I do have an idea of where a phone can be helpful. Okay, so Rena, have you ever used I sometimes use um these Chrome extensions on my computer that lock me out of websites that I want to go play in. Um have you ever seen these?

I I've never used one before. Tell me more. Okay, so there's like freedom and focus. Those are a couple that I think are free. And you basically um, you know, it's like putting your phone in a lockbox. You know, it's like you put your computer on lock.

And so it's actually possible for kids to use their computers for homework, which they often, you know, especially by high school, really, really need to do, and even possible for them to use their computer to like go searching for educational things. But you can also use these um you can set a timer on that. where you can't go, you know, look at Pinterest or whatever it is. It's actually like really, really compelling. So that's that's a workable solution that you can try to talk a kid into.

So I could ban all shopping sites for myself. So I'm not looking at all the clothes I want to buy. But it actually okay, so then I said I wanted to come back to the phone. There's another version of this, which is like I too like to look at shopping sites. Like I love looking at clothes, right? And so sometimes when I am tired, have a ton of work

and need to get going on it and it's on my computer, I will take my phone and I will set a 20 minute timer and 20 minutes doesn't feel like that long. If you work in a focused way for 20 minutes, you can get a lot done. I will set that timer. I will put it where I can see it. And um, you know, usually Rena, honestly, like within three to four minutes, I'm like, oh, how much longer do I have? And I'm like, oh my God, that's pathetic. Like you still have 17 minutes. But I'll make myself work.

And then at the end of that twenty minutes, I'll go take five minutes and I'll set another timer to look at the things I want to look at. And so that's, you know, if you don't wanna go so far as like, you know, a Chrome extension or something like that, that's a conversation you could have with your kid about um Why don't you use your phone, you know, you could keep it but

Try to work for 20 minutes at a time without distraction or 25 if you can. It's amazing how much work gets done in a really, really focused 20, 25 minute unit. So if we want them to sort of rethink what they've been doing with having all of these different things going on and you want them just to learn how to be able to do something and be focused. Can a parent like this get a child to change?

Okay, so this is the big question. And it's actually something I've been thinking about a huge amount around like, first of all, the question of behavior change. And then the question of behavior change in teenagers. So I wanna like actually zoom super way back. Like I wanna go sort of thirty thousand feet. So Rena, you know, one of the things that is absolutely true is getting humans to change their behavior.

is enormously difficult. That's why there's my entire field and other fields devoted to that exact activity of getting humans to change their behavior.

Um and what I can tell you is like even as a clinician, you know, there will be people who come for therapy, who are paying me good money to try to change, who still struggle struggle to change. So When we come to this question of like my teenager is doing this and I want them to do that, I think the first step we have to take is like, okay, getting a person to change behavior, especially if they themselves are not wanting to change the behavior.

is like no small thing. Like we can't just be like, do it my way um and hope that people do it. Right. So I think I think there's like some humility in the face of like encouraging behavior change in teenagers. So is there a small step that parents could take if they if they really feel this is a hill they want to die on?

I think there are and I think that's a good way to think about it. Like, okay, so maybe the kid's not gonna like, you know, overhaul her studying and, you know, do it exactly as this parent would want. But maybe there's like a half step that would be amenable for this kid.

And and I do think, right, maybe, you know, it sounds like from the letter, she's got her phone, she's got a computer, she's got it all going on. So maybe the first step is the parent says, like, can we just try an experiment? Like, what if you turn your phone into a timer and don't use it as you know how you're gonna entertain yourself every time you get bored. And like this is the thing, Renette, like

You know, my husband's a teacher, I spend a lot of time with teachers. They are saying, like, it is hard for kids to sustain attention these days. Like they, you know, they are so it you know, growing up in this soup of unbelievably interesting things that are right at their fingertips, right? Like no homework assignment can compete with the, you know, totally interesting stuff on TikTok or a video game.

And so like it is hard for kids to focus. And so um maybe the first step is actually asking this kid to stack the deck and just saying, you know, why don't you just go for twenty minutes but you can keep your phone present. Okay. I love that timer idea. I mean, I'm gonna use it for myself. I I think sometimes just staying focused for anybody is a hard thing to do. It is, it is. And like I think that's a something we want to sit on for a minute or rest on for a minute.

We also struggle with focus and attention. What I think about all the time is I struggle sometimes to do my work I adore my job. I am getting paid to do my job. I have chosen my job. and I still have to give myself a timer and rewards. And, you know, one of the things I wrote about in the emotional lives of teenagers is that um

We should think of school being like a buffet where we require kids to eat every single thing on the buffet. Right? Like when adults go to a buffet, they get like this thing they like and that thing they like. With kids we're like eat it all. So of course they're gonna have a hard time focusing sometimes because they didn't even like they're taking it'cause they have to. And and I think um some empathy in that direction helps a lot.

So just acknowledging that, you know, they're in a position where they don't get a lot of choice throughout the day. Yeah. So how can they still have to do it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I want to go back to this. The student gets good grades. So when are we as parents being hyper worked up about something that we really shouldn't?

Right. I mean and this is the hard thing, right? Like There's so much to worry about with kids and teenagers and I think we don't like You know, especially if everything's going well and they're a good kid and they're working hard and they're getting stuff done and they're actually really pleasant.

Right. You're like, how much do I want to throw down about this? Right. Especially when she's getting good grades and she's, you know, um, you know, doing all the right things outside of school, right? How much do I want to throw down about this? Um I think every family has to make their own choices about it. I also, you know, like You have to decide what your priorities are as a family. Okay. So in my family, like we're nerds. Like we you know, like we like to like

You know, my husband has a PhD, I have a PhD like this, like being able to focus on school and being able to do sustained work, like that's a real value in our family. Like that's that's a high priority. So like bluntly Arena, like in my house I would throw down about this and I've actually had to, right? I mean I've had to with my ninth grader because she's very s you know, very capable student.

But we've sometimes had to have conversations about where her tech is, and it's not hurting our schoolwork right now. So I do honor that though. Like like do you know that your kids are working in a focused way in their rooms? Like what do you know about how their homework's going?

Well, I think that's the problem is I really appreciate because I grew up having a room of my own and I think that was really wonderful and helpful. Um, and I can understand being around everyone all day and wanting some space.

So I respect that, but you're right. I have no idea. And sometimes the phone is up there and I'll walk in and I'm like, the phone's not supposed to be here. And she'll be like, Look, mom, it's on the shelf. I'm not it's nowhere near me and I'm just playing music. And that's exactly what's going on. And they're good students. So why am I complicating it if they have figured this out on their own?

It's true. It's true. And I'll give you two more examples of where the phone's not a problem that I've heard from teenagers. One is sometimes teenagers will open up their phone and have a friend on FaceTime who's also doing their homework. And just the company, right? The company of it. And then this is like this cracks me up so much. And like this is like the inventiveness in teenagers.

Where this is a kid who used her phone to actually get it done. So I had this fantastic sophomore I knew who would put her video camera on and videotape herself studying for like 20 minute, 30 minute units. And it something about having the monitoring of the video like helped her lock in, as they say. Kids say now lock in. Um, and then she would amuse herself by going back and watching it on high speed'cause she would like crack up at the faces she would make.

But I'm like brilliant. Right. She has used her phone to make herself lock in. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I I I just I guess I struggle with giving them enough space to figure it out on their own, but also knowing what we know. And wanting them to develop good skills that'll help them in college and work eventually down the road. Now that my kids are older, I'm able to spend more time at the gym, and this makes me hugely happy.

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Okay, I've been thinking about, like I said, behavior change at all, right, in any human being. Yeah. And then I've been thinking a lot about behavior change in teenage. And so, okay, you know how I like if I can, I like acronyms. Um, I've got another one for us. Okay.

I don't even know if this is an acronym. It's four R's. All right. So this is my I'm playing with this idea of like if you need to change behavior in a teenager, like if you feel like it's a fight worth having, right? As you're asking. So the first R Which we should use all the time everywhere is respect, right? You approach it in a respectful way. So rather than being like, ah, you and your computer and your phone and uh and teens today and uh right, like that kind of stuff.

I think the thing and mean to see if this feels right to you. I think the thing we have to start with the assumption is that If we had had this technology as teenagers, we would use it exactly as our kids do it. Does that feel right to you? Oh yeah. I think you're absolutely right. But I've never thought of it that way. Well, so I think we should think of it that way, right? That like

The only difference between our kids and us is that we didn't have it. And I think this makes for an interesting like friction around tech with kids because I think. You know, it's easy to be like, oh teens this and uh teens that. Well on this one, like it's a pretty easy stick to beat them with because like we can't say, well, when I was a teenager, I did this with it, like we didn't have

So I think to get to that respectful place, right, you start from this position of, okay, wait a minute. It was easy for. We didn't have this as an option, and our kids do. And so of course they're using it this way, and we would have used it this way. And Yet it presents a problem. But the problem's not the kid. The problem is the environment in which they are currently growing up and what's available to them. So I think

If you can start with is the kid the problem or is the tech the problem and what's available, you quickly can see like it's not the kid really. And that fosters respect. Um okay, so if you're in the seat of the parent and you're viewing it that way, right? Like

This is this, you know, this is a world they're growing up in. This is the tech that's available. How would you like in a respectful light way, like what would your approach then be if you see them doing what's described in this letter? Do you have thoughts on that? I think it's important to have a conversation because they push back saying, look, it's only music and uh it just helps me study. That that's always the default line.

And if their grades are good, fine. But I think I've never had the conversation with them about how it might take them longer to be doing their homework than they may think because of the stuff. I think that's it, right? Which is like, and it's exactly as you're saying. Like, look, I get it, and you're doing your music and you're doing well. And I think actually even saying you're doing well. I'm not saying this is a problem already, but

I think a respectful approach and it gets to the second R, which is like a rationale. Like you have to give a rationale for why you want the behavior to change. So you say, look, I didn't have this tech as a teenager. I would have used it the same way you're using it. Okay, so there you've checked the R box of respect. Then you say I want you to think differently or I want us to talk about whether or not it should be so present in your academic life.

Because we have research showing that it's gonna slow you down. We have research showing that it's gonna cause more errors. um that, you know, interrupting yourself is the same as when I interrupt you and it's super annoying to you when I interrupt you. It's actually no different in your brain who interrupts you. So You know, you offer this rationale, which then gets to the third R, which I think as adults we can still make, which is a rule.

Right. So you can say, I want a rule. And, you know, this isn't forever, but let's try it for a month, where your computer, you know, is either you don't look at other sites or you make it so that you can't look at other sites. And if your phone is there, it's there as a timer to give you rewards. It's not there as something you can shift to as soon as

You know, the work gets a little bit frustrating or a little bit boring. So I think I'm all for rules, right? You can make rules for kids, and you should make rules for kids. But I think you first are respectful, you offer a rationale for the rule, and then you give the rule. Okay. I've got one more R, but what do you think so far? I think it's great. Keep going.

I think the final R is prepare for resistance, right? Do not be annoyed with your kid for rolling their eyes, so that's one more R, or uh themselves, or being salty about it, right? Like no Kid is gonna be like

Well my goodness, now that you've explained the science. That kids up to something if that that happens. Yeah. Yeah. Um I think I've shared this before, but if I haven't, like one of my favorite educators is this woman, Candace Maiden, and she used to She and I used to work together at a school where I consulted here in Cleveland. And whenever she had to um enforce something with the students

Like she'd walk down the hall and their backpacks would be everywhere. She'd be like, put em away, put'em away. You know, and the kids would grumble and grumble and she'd walk down and she'd go, Complain but comply. Complain but comply And I was like, Okay, this woman understands teenagers. perfectly. Right? Like I don't need you to like it. I don't need you to pretend like you like it. I just need you to do

So I actually think where we often get hung up is that last R, which is the k like the kid does put their phone away but they're a grump about it and then we turn that into a whole thing. No. Complain but comply. So approach with respect, offer a rationale for why you want them to make a change, make a clear rule. Say we're gonna do this, this is the plan.

Um and then let them be mad at you. Um I love that, Lisa. Where I'd start. That's where I'd start. That's great. Respect, rationale, rule, resistance. Respect rationale rule resistance. That's so good. That is so good. Well, listen, I am so glad we took this up. Sometimes we take up topics and I'm like, is this really a thing? And then I start to think about my own parenting in my own home and I'm like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize.

that we probably need to have a conversation about this as well. I think we do. I think we do. I think it's hard to be a kid today and I think um we wanna be teammates with them. And I think this, you know, anything tech, the more you can position position yourself as a teammate, the better it is. What do you have for us for parenting to go? Well, so I think the four R's applies to almost all behavior change in teenagers.

I think if you, you know, want them to stop leaving wet towels on their floor. You know, I think you you know, you don't have to bend over backwards with respect, but I don't think you have there's no benefit. There's no reason to ever be rude to a kid. But you can be like, Hey.

You and I both know that towel doesn't really belong there and here's why I don't like it there is that it's actually smells bad and it's moldy and you know, I don't want wet things hanging where they don't really dry. So the rule is I'm gonna ask you to put your towel on the

on the rack and stop leaving it on the floor. And then the kid rolls your eyes and you're like, I won. I got what I needed done. Like I think that that's the strategy. That's the strategy every time. Um maybe not every time, but Anytime you can use a four Rs, they would be my recommendation. Respect, rationale, rule, resistance. Thank you for that. That that is a great Tangible takeaway. I love it.

Uh Lisa, speaking of resistance, next week we're gonna talk about piercings. When should you freak out? over your child's piercing, should you ever how do you approach that conversation to begin with? Um and what's really going on when they're asking for all these piercings. I'll see you next week. I'll see you next week. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get the episodes just as soon as they drop. And send us your questions to Ask Lisa at dr. Lisa DeV.

And now a word from our lawyers. The advice provided on this podcast does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment, therapy, or other types of professional advice or intervention. If you have concerns about your child, being, consult a physician or mental health professional. If you're looking for additional resources, check out Lisa's website