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Hi, I'm Reena Nineen, and this is Ask Lisa, the Psychology of Parenting Podcast. It's a podcast to help parents better understand their kids. Dr. Lisa Damour, a psychologist with three decades of experience and the author of three New York Times best-selling parenting books takes your questions. Both of us are moms ourselves, and we're eager to hear from you. So send us your questions to Ask Lisa, at Dr. LisaDlamour.com, and you can join our community by
following us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. The handle is Ask Lisa Podcast. And also subscribe to our brand new YouTube channel, Ask Lisa Podcast. Episode 172, in the on-core presentation, if should I kick my kid off TikTok? When it comes to social media, during the early adolescent years, from 10 to 14, research shows that adult monitoring and having discussions about social media content can have an important impact on kids, helping them develop digital
literacy skills can better prepare kids for our digital world. In this week's on-core episode, we look at our children's digital landscape, exploring how TikTok is shaping our kids behavior. We'll discuss the impact of algorithms and tips for parents to help monitor TikTok usage. Dr. Lisa also walks us through both the potential benefits of social media and their risks.
While the American Psychological Association's research shows that excessive social media use can lead to increased anxiety and depression and adolescents, helping kids find a way to navigate their digital habits can make a big difference. So join us now for on-core episode 172. Should I kick my kid off TikTok? I need to be doing more with TikTok, but I can't bring myself to do it. Why? Maybe the arena. I mean, because I'm 52. I just can't add. I am like,
arena. I love what we do on instant other platforms, but I don't know. For me, TikTok feels like a branch too far. But I will tell you, as a content creator and a journalist, I know that is where a younger generation is living. I mean, that is what the equivalent of television was for us growing up. It feels like what TikTok is today. Absolutely, but it's a lot. We get a lot of letters about technology and gaming and social media. And this one was about TikTok and we thought we'd take this
up today. It says, dear Dr. Lisa and Reena, I'd love to hear Lisa's advice on how to handle twin young teens and TikTok. It's hard to get them off it. And from what I can see, it's basically random videos, which are mostly pretty useless in my humble opinion. I find kids watching this for extended periods of time, laughing at videos that I honestly don't even find funny. Any advice on how to manage this. Thanks so much in advance. So Lisa, are you seeing this in your practice?
Is this TikTok evocation of teenage life really a problem? Yeah, they love it. Right. And what this parent describes, I really resonated to a lot of it. One that they can spend hours on it. The other, and I don't know if you've had this experience Reena, I don't get what's funny. And I like funny things. And I even like adolescent humor a lot. You've got a great fun humor. But I have like when my kids will show me stuff or I had a colleague who's like my son
blew up on TikTok and she showed me. And I said, do I, I don't get it. She's like, I don't get it either. Like it's a different discourse around comedy. It's a different understanding of funny. Like have you had that experience of like, you're like, I don't, I don't see it. I just don't get why people are so into it like fascinated, like fascinated by it. And then you realize how you've lost all this time, right? I mean, don't you think these videos are really useless?
Well, it's actually very, there's a lot of ways you could take that. Okay, so I'll give you the answer where I say no. Okay, they're not useless. So even though I don't get it, and I think, and I just want to rest for a minute on the not getting it, I really try as much as anything to be anthropological about kids as opposed to judgment psychology. It's true. Cranky about it. So true about that. Yep. Well, I do, like just to observe. And so I'm always interested in those things
where I'm like, I don't get it. Right. And so I don't get often like this writer doesn't really get like why these kids find this stuff so engaging. But I try not to go to a then a critical place of like, well, as dumb and so then, you know, they shouldn't do it. Like I try to stay away. Just like, okay, there's a lot. I don't understand. So I just want to leave that there. But in terms of, is there value? Right? Is there value even in this like random weird stuff that doesn't seem
funny does? There can be value because distraction and being distracted by things that are in thralling and harmless can actually help us get through our day, right? That we're using distraction all the time when we're frustrated. Like I'll go internet shopping when I'm frustrated and then I'll go back to my work. So I wouldn't say they're useless if a kid like has like the worst day ever is completely grumpy has a bunch of homework to do. And the kids like, all right, give me 20 minutes
to just look at like mindless, you know, and that can be garbage. Yeah. If they can then turn around and do their homework like it was useful. So I'm not going to say it's entirely useless. When is it a problem? When should a parent be worried? Okay. So there's two levels of which parents should be worried about tiktok or really any social media or really any digital environment. So what is just time consumption? Like it's what you're describing, right? So if the kids like,
no, no, no, I've had the worst day ever. I need like 10 minutes on tiktok. And then, you know, three hours later, they are, you know, they haven't done any of the work they've also been sitting on there, you know, duff for three hours when they could have been out being active. Like that's a problem. Like we don't want digital technology in any form to interfere with the things that we're supposed to be doing. So that's one version of a problem. The other version of a problem
has to do with what the kids looking at in those environments. And Rina, you said something about, you know, kids will start and they'll just like keep watching, keep watching, keep watching, keep watching. And what you're describing there, which really deserves to be fully laid out,
is you're describing the algorithms at work. So you know, and I know, but I don't think I really appreciated this until more recently, that when any of us engage with digital technology, and especially social media platforms of any kind, huge amounts of data are being recorded as we do that, right? Like way more than I think we appreciate. So these platforms are picking up,
you know, what we look at, what we click on, what we actually spend time. Like if we just hover over for a while, what we like, what we send to people, and then of course things like what we search for. And so these data platforms, these social media platforms are constantly using us as lab rats in an experiment of like, how long do you watch if I show you this? How long do you watch if I show you that? How long do you, and I can see it on my own Instagram feed. Like, you know, when I've,
I love watching dance videos. And so suddenly the Instagram algorithm has figured out I will spend time on those. Now I'm getting tons and tons of those. And so that experience you describe of like kids sort of like getting pulled in and staying much longer. That's not the kid. That is the algorithm working exactly as it should, which is you like this, you're going to really like that. And if you really like that, we're going to show you this thing that you're going
to really like. So the algorithms are doing that and kids need to know. And we've talked about that. Like we need to explain to kids that this is how this works. And you said in earlier podcasts, when we talked about vaping, that one of the things that really gets through to teens is explaining how they are being manipulated. And in this instance, by talking about the algorithm, sort of explains to them why this can get to be addictive because they're figuring out what it is you spend time on.
Absolutely, absolutely. And I would not pull my punches on this. I mean, I would really be clear. And people, the documentary, the social dilemma does a really good job of showing this in a documentary forum about how these data are collected and how it shapes the experience we have. And that the entire end game, this soul end game is for these platforms to make as much money as possible off of advertising by keeping us attentive and then shaping the
advertising that's presented to us so that we will buy things. The more you can explain that to kids, it doesn't mean that they're going to be like, then throw away my phone. I never would look at social media, but you want them to know that this is how this operates. You know, I want to talk to you a little bit about after the other side of this break, Lisa, it feels like there is a disconnect with parents for sort of kind of understanding TikTok and why kids are so into it. And I also want
to ask you about when you really should worry that too much is just too much. We'll be right back. You're listening to Ask Lisa, the psychology of parenting. I do make it a goal to try to eat healthy and well. And this is why I love daily harvest. They take the work out of eating healthy foods. All I have to do is enjoy. With daily harvest, I get tons of plant-based options built on organic fruits and vegetables that are easy to prep.
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Welcome back to Ask Lisa, the psychology of parenting. We're talking about tick talk and have parent rights and concerned that their child might be on it a little bit too much. You know, it's interesting when this parent talks about tick talk. I can't get over the fact that a lot of parents feel this way. It's like, why are they watching all this content? It's not even funny, but they're mesmerized. You know, it reminds me of like the toddler phases when they
watch like the kidney videos on television. You're like again, we're going to listen to that baby shark song again. I know it's really enthralling and you know, it's designed to be that way, but the other thing that's going on is there's also a peer transaction in this, right? That kids are watching with their friends or they're talking with their friends about what they're watching, right? That I don't know that as adults, what we're consuming on social media is shaping our peer interactions
very much, right? I mean, I'm like just looking a lot of like dance videos, you know, like, but I'm not talking about it with my friends, right? Like that's just sort of my own private experience. Whereas for kids, there's a lot more shared and transactional and imitating and knowing and,
you know, working in a shared environment around what they are looking at online. So that can be very compelling that the algorithm is one form of kind of magnetic attraction to this, but then also wanting to be watching what all of my friends are watching and share in that experience is another form of magnetic attraction that can have to this. That's so interesting, because you're saying it's not just consuming the video, like I'm getting a lot of home organization
on Instagram and salads in a jar. And I love it and it consumes, you know, but I'm not really necessarily talking to my friends about it, but you're saying there's a social component to this, because I assume people watch the video and then talk about it. Yeah, or they, you know,
doing the dances at recess or, you know, I mean, those kinds of things. And I think that sometimes kids will make the argument, like this is why I need TikTok, is that I am feeling isolated socially, because everybody's aware of things that I am not aware of and then I feel like I'm kind of in the dark about it. And, you know, I'm not convinced. That's a great reason to give your kid TikTok. I think you can give your kid a lot of social support through a phone that can text, you know,
before you give them TikTok. But that's a pretty powerful component. But I mean, just to kind of keep playing this out about where things can really go wrong, like really wrong. So you're getting salads in a jar and home organization. Home organization. Yeah. Organizing your fridge and your pantry and your glasses. Because clearly you have spent time looking at things like that. Yeah, exactly. Priority is amazing. And I'm getting adorable kids dancing quite a bit, because I seem to
really like watching adorable kids dancing. So I'm getting a lot of videos along those lines. What kids use as a language to describe this is they talk about the different sides of platforms that you can end up on. And TikTok, especially they'll say like, oh, well, there's different sides of TikTok. So this, and what they're describing is that what the algorithm is currently flooding a particular kid's feed with. So in this letter, it is very clear to me that her daughter is on the
goofy kind of weird humor side of TikTok, right? Like it's kind of random and funny, but not funny to adults. But that's the side she's on. There's also the gay books side of TikTok. There is also the sports side of TikTok, right? Sports side of TikTok. Right? There are also really dark sides of TikTok. There is the white supremacy side of TikTok, right? There is the how to lose a whole lot of weight
really fast side of TikTok. And the hard thing is I don't know that they are watching this, right? Like even Snapchat, like it happens and I can't go back and necessarily see what do they look at all day today, right? I don't think you can, but what you can do for TikTok is you go to the kids for you page. And that is really like, that will tell you what side of TikTok they're on because
TikTok is like these are for you. So what parents should feel comfortable doing is knowing they, I want parents to know, especially with younger teenagers, what's on your kids for you page? Because if your kid is on the goofy dance side of TikTok, you can probably rest easy at night, right? Like, or sports clips or sports clips or whatever. If your kids on the white supremacy side of TikTok, like you need to know that, right? So that's really important. And I mean, the thing,
I sort of gestured at this, right? I brought it up in a parenting to go about video games and how much is too much. But the thing I think about now all the time in raising kids is the question of the norms in the environments where they are hanging out, right? That that like norm shape behavior. Totally. Yeah. So when you're seeing norms, like the fact that what is their environment day in and day out? And what does that sort of validate day in and day out? Absolutely. In norm shape
behavior, like we know that. So the way we saw this go so horribly wrong in the pandemic was kids had a ton of time on their hands. They were looking at a lot of social media. And so then kids, especially some kids who were hard driving and anxious, but it could be any variety of kids decided they would get in shape, right? They would use the pandemic to like transform their bodies. And so they started searching on TikTok and also other platforms for fitness, weight loss,
whatever. And what we saw was their feeds became flooded with diet, diet culture before and after photos. Okay, so those are scary enough. Then you think, okay, now the kid is spending four and five hours a day looking at these things. Becoming extremely thin has now become totally normed. Right. They're looking at skinny or ultra fit bodies all day. This is not something that's happening over there that is part of a broader view of, you know, 100 kids who have like bodies that are
of all shapes and sizes. Their understanding of what bodies look like are supposed to look like is now being distorted into a norm driven by an algorithm that has not got your kids' best interests at heart. Yeah. So that's what we want to watch. That's something that's like a red flag to you that you absolutely need to keep in mind. It's a huge red flag. And so what I would say as parents are evaluating the question of like screen time, social media, right? Which are the
questions that we are constantly evaluating as parents? I don't know that the idea of screen time is a particularly helpful one because like screens can deliver everything, right? Like I do all my work on screens and then we watch fun documentaries on screens. I would have among the ways the parents are evaluating their kids use their technology. One should be is it getting in the way of other aspects of their life, but then right next to that should be what are the norms in the
digital environments where my kid is hanging out? Like that's the answer I want parents to have at their fingertips. So with that in mind, Lisa, when should you really be worried as a parent? I think you should really be worried as a parent. I don't you know, I don't traffic and worry that often. If your kid is hanging out in digital environments where you're like we do not agree with those norms or those norms are destructive. So can you give me an example?
So I'll give you an example. So obviously if your kid is spending time in on the dark side of TikTok and that is you know and and a kid's can spend time time, right? So then that becomes a norm that will start to shape the kids behavior, no question. Another example if we go back to video games, right? There's video games in there's video games, right? So there are mostly boys who are playing tons and tons of NBA all-star video games with their friends where they are like goofing around
having a good time. It's playful, it's competitive. They're funny. They're spending a lot of time on it but the norm in that environment, the parent maybe like that's fine. Like that fits beautifully with like that's just how we roll. Like we're good with that. There are also kids who are playing hours and hours in video games where their like and discord can be a platform where this happens. With a norm in that environment is like kids are dropping the end word every five words.
I see. And so this becomes and your kid is then spending hours there? Around that type of behavior. Around that type of behavior and so that is becoming normed. And so I think that what we don't, what I haven't seen a satisfying exploration of and maybe this podcast episode is the beginning is the way in which the norms that kids can pick up in a digital environment can then seep into their daily life. Shape, eating, disordered behavior. Shape their view of marginalized
communities. Shape, you know any variety of things. That's where I get the most anxious about digital technology and social media. Separate from the question of like it gets in the way of kids sleep and they should be doing other stuff. But it's that norming. And I think if you spend a lot of time somewhere, those become the norms. That is so interesting. And that puts it into perspective about when you really should be worried. When it changes that sort of dynamic because they think
that this is normal. This is what normal behavior looks like and what I should be doing. Absolutely. Let's say if you're a parent and you are worried. What should you do? So I think we want to hit this from two sides. So first of all, as a general rule, let me, your kids ability to spend hours and hours in any digital environment. Like I just think like it doesn't matter if they're doing like, yay fun, happy fun stuff, looking at sports clips, whatever.
Like at some level, kids just need a lot more variety. So you want to just clamp this down just from how many how many hours can they spend in any digital environment where they're exposed to norms in that environment. And then second, I would be very, very hawkish, very aware of the norms where
my kid is hanging out and keep a close eye on them. And I would talk with kids about it. I would talk very clearly with them and say, look, I'm not saying in kind of social media, I am saying, if you're going to spend this kind of time on it, I need to know the norms in that environment because our values matter. And we need to know, we're not going to put you in any environment where the values are totally different from our values. That includes whatever you're doing on that little
screen that you hold in your hand, like that's an environment where you're spending time. And if the values on there are offensive to us or antithetical to how we operate as a family, we're going to have an issue with that because you are spending time there. That's great advice. And what do you find really works when you talk to your kid about this and you're worried that gets them to kind of understand, okay, this might be a problem for me because often they don't feel they just feel like
it's their parents being unreasonable. I think that's really true. I think this is a really good moment where we remember that all kids have two sides. They have the don't get between me and my TikTok side. And they have the broad-minded, growth-oriented, philosophical, wise and decent side. And the side that you speak to is the side that shows up for the conversation.
So you can say to them, all right, we are good with you watching goofy dance videos on TikTok because we get it that you need a happy distraction and it seems harmless to us. Allow us to be clear that TikTok is designed to see where else they can get you to go and what rabbit holes that can pull you down. And if you find that you are being exposed to content that you know does not fit with our family values and you can lay it out, right? It is racist,
it is sexist, it's horrible. I mean, it's horrible. You can just say like these are the things we do not believe. Let us know. We want to know how that happened. And more than anything, we don't want you spending time around that content because the more time you spend around it, the less alarming it will be come to you and that's a problem. I love having these conversations with you because you're not anti-technology and you know TikTok is taken over YouTube in some instances. You know,
I just don't think this is going away. But what is it least ultimately based on all these years you've practiced and dealing with technology? What do you think parents kind of don't understand about TikTok that maybe if a team we're here today talk to us about it that they'd like to get through to their parents? Let's imagine a junior girl because here's the thing. In my experience, junior girls, because those are the ones I have most access to, but I know there's a lot in junior
boys like this. They are like the truth speakers of all time. Like they see everything they know everything and they will still dain't explain it to adults. And what I love about senior girls, senior girls are like, yeah, not my problem. Like you guys need to figure this out for yourself, but junior girls will still work with you. And when I have talked to junior girls about TikTok, what they will say is it's not us who need to be worrying about it's the seventh graders.
Yeah, they're like someone needs to keep an eye on those seventh graders. And they're right, which is the seventh graders can be very naive about what they're being shown and why they're being shown it. And seventh graders can very easily be pulled down dangerous scary rabbit holes. Whereas the junior's, and I will assume that they're in the right of this, they're like we understand how to talk works and what side you want to be on. And we keep ourselves on the sides
that we of the things we want to see. But it's the younger kids who are so excited to have it and more vulnerable to really the wild west that is available there. And so what I would say is like be very cautious as you give these algorithm driven environments to your younger kids because they are incredibly vulnerable to these giant machines that are just trying to figure out what it's going to get to get to get your kid to keep paying attention. It's such a great point.
I wouldn't have thought about seventh grade, but that warning from the eleventh graders kind of on point, isn't it? Yeah, no. The eleventh graders usually kind of have things dead to rights. Wow. Well, this has been really fascinating to sort of learn from your perspective about, you know, when you should worry and what's important when your kids are obsessed with TikTok. Lisa, what do you have for us for parenting to go?
I'm thinking about our conversation about the ways in which the algorithms are currently shaping our respective Instagram experiences. And I think when adults need to talk with kids about social media, if the adult has their own data to work with, I'm like, look, I looked at this one kid, you know, cute kid dance video three weeks ago and now look what's happened to my feed. That can be a way to get an opening to talk about how these algorithms work. So I wouldn't,
I wouldn't feel ashamed of it. I wouldn't hesitate to say, like, look, this happens to everybody. It's not like this is how kids experience these things. It's how we all do and we all need to be really, really mindful of what it means. All right. I'll see you next week. I'll see you next week. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get the episodes just as soon as they drop and send us your questions to Ask Lisa at doctorleesademore.com.
And now we'll work from our lawyers. The advice provided on this podcast does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment therapy or other types of professional advice or intervention. If you have concerns about your child's well-being, consult a physician or mental health professional. If you're looking for additional resources, check out Lisa's website at doctorleesademore.com. We'll see you next week.