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Hi, I'm Reena Nineen and this is Ask Lisa, the Psychology of Parenting Podcast. It's a podcast to help parents better understand their kids. Dr. Lisa Damour, a psychologist with three decades of experience and the author of three New York Times bestselling parenting books takes your questions. Both of us are moms ourselves and we're eager to hear from you. So send us your questions to ask Lisa, a doctorlisa-demore.com and join our community by following us on
Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter at Ask Lisa Podcast. On Corp. 1-29, my kid was dumped by her friends. How can I help? Why do kids suddenly turn on friends and ice them out of a group? It's something Dr. Lisa says she hears commonly within her practice and especially during the months where kids need shared interests to hold those groups together, that social glue was actually depleted by the pandemic. We take a look at how this negative behavior can emerge in
friend groups and quickly become destructive. I ask if adults should call out mean behavior or reach out to other parents when social groups turn sour. Dr. Lisa covers what kids should do when classmates are nice to them one-on-one but won't include them in groups. Are we done yet with this pandemic? I know Reena, everybody is so over it. What are you hearing? What I'm hearing is almost impossible to distinguish from clinical depression. Wow.
We know when I'm talking with people, adults, and kids and teenagers, the mood they're describing, the low feelings they have, as I sit there listening as a clinician, I'm like, okay, is this two plus years in a pandemic plus the long dark winter or is this clinical depression? I mean they really sound similar right now. Why do you think so many people feel like they're
at a low point and are desperate for help? I think winter plus the seeming endlessness of this is just people are just worn down and then everyone around them is worn down so nobody's in a good mood. Like you're just going from grumpy person to grumpy person which makes it hard to feel good and upbeat. You know I had to go in pre-pandemic. I would go into New York take the train five times a week for work and I haven't done that in two years and I went in and I found myself exhausted
in these meetings of meeting people. Yeah, understanding sort of how to reconnect with people is a new thing and we got this letter. I know a lot of people are struggling with their kids and friends and re-establishing their friendship and it says, hi Dr. Lisa, I'm hoping you can help me with my 15-year-old daughter. She's been dumped by her friend group and needs to start over socially. She reached out to
the girls in the group to ask what she had done wrong and no one would reply. Needless to say, my daughter was devastated. We talked about reaching out to other friends which she has done. They're nicer to her online but don't include her in their plans. She's now talking to a therapist but it's only helping so much. Sundays are the worst. She dreads going back to school and having to be around former friends who pretend like she doesn't exist. It's heartbreaking to watch and I
have no idea how to help her navigate the reset. Also, what and how do I say something to the moms or the former girls? I want to call out their mean girl behavior even though I know nothing will change. Thanks so much. I love your podcast friends and I listen and discuss it every week. Where do you even begin with this? Well, let me tell you, Renette, this I am hearing a lot. A lot of this of kids are suddenly being iced out of groups that they've been part of or
you know, kind of friction that would normally be manageable. Kids just dropping other kids. Coming into coalitions against individual kids. This is something that has, I was hearing more of early in the pandemic than usual and then it's just gone up from there. So it's horrible, horrible and not that rare right now. Wow, but why do you think it's happening? I mean, you're kind of explained to me, some of this is sort of natural and before but like this is so nasty.
It's really nasty and you know, we can't really know group to group dynamic to dynamic what's going on. But here is something that always pops up in my mind when I hear stories like this, which is that sometimes when kids are struggling to find what I would call like social glue, you know, ways to feel connected to their peers. One of the ways they do it is to gang up on someone. Wait, wait, wait, you're saying they don't find their social footing. So the default is to just like
bully people and be mean. Well, it may be more like there's a group of kids, you know, boys or girls who are kind of loosely connected and want to have more to connect around. Want to be more tight knit with one another. Yeah, yeah. And in the pandemic, it's really hard for kids to have happy things to connect around. You know, so much of like good social stuff is like, and then we went to this like funny movie together and then we had this like, you know, goofy
sleepover together. And so, you know, kids need ways to have social glue. And what we want is good social glue when they're connecting around shared interests and enjoying one another's company. That has been, you know, seriously depleted by the nature of the pandemic. And so I think some of what we're seeing is kids connecting around unhealthy social glue, which is, well, we don't have
that much in common. We don't have that much we can do together, but we can mutually gang up on this one person who we all have decided, you know, true or not, like somehow annoying to us. And so our tight knit strength or sense of being a group together is going to be drawn from us mutually disliking the same person. So it's so messed up. It's so messed up. It is so messed up. And it's one of those things where, you know, obviously for the kid who's getting iced out, it is,
it's awful. It is awful. I mean, it really, I very rarely use a term, but it definitely can move towards feeling traumatized and like just completely overwhelming to deal with. And I hate that kids are doing this. Of course, as a clinician, I'm like, I see why? Like I don't approve of it, but I get it. Like when you don't have much to come together around, it can end up being pretty negative. And
it's funny. I was just talking with a colleague at a school the other day. And she gave me a different version of the story of the kids like just totally coalescing around how stressed they are, which, you know, also happened before the pandemic. But again, you get the sense of they don't have much to come together around. And so these negative things can become handy and really destructive, but also serve a purpose of giving kids a sense of wearing this together.
So what can this mom do to help? It's so heartbreaking. So she's gotten her kid a therapist, which we know is a triumph and the right thing and not easy to do. So, okay, you know, Harvina, sometimes I can get into like really long and tedious metaphors. Okay. Okay. I think metaphors are great. It makes things good for me, but okay. Okay. This one's a little like it's a B plus at best, but it's still useful and it's really,
really useful in these situations. So one way I have helped kids out of situations like this is to help them take it less personally, help it feel less personal, right? Because of course, it feels intensely personal. So the first thing a parent can do is to give the explanation I just gave. You know what? Honey, maybe they are really struggling to find ways to feel connected to each other and you have become the victim of their attempt to feel tight is to, you know, box you out.
Okay. So in terms of this metaphor, the way I think it through and the way I think a parent could explain this to, you know, kid is 15, so she's probably taking chemistry is that I think of friendship groups certainly middle school, early high school, but honestly, Rina right now, early high school looks like middle school socially. I mean, it is really not great. You're saying
they're delayed because of not being in class and masks and all that. Totally, totally. I mean, we are seeing the kind of base bullying, nastiness that we usually can check at the door by seventh or eighth grade is creeping well in tonight their 10th, which is its own misery. And this child would be in the 10th grade probably. So what you can say is, you know, think about social groups as almost like chemical compounds and every kid in the social group is an atom and they have their, you know,
chemical compound, they come together. Some compounds are more stable than others. So you know that those friendship groups were like, everyone gets along and it's kind of happy and you know, they sort of click along. And then they're a friendship groups and I think this is what, you know, we can think about with this child where the friendship group wasn't all that stable. And the, let's say there were four other atoms in this group, right besides this child. And they decided,
oh, I know how to stabilize. Let's kick out that atom and that will strengthen our bonds. We'll be this group of, you know, kids who come together around this, you know, strengthening bond of having kicked that atom out. So it can start to help us if we think about this girl who's been iced out. It's like she's now a free floating atom. And it's in the name of that former friendship group trying to strengthen their bonds. And she did the right thing. She reached out to say,
did I do something what's wrong? And the fact that she got no response does make me think even more that they're like, nope, nope, nope, the whole goal is to strengthen our bonds and to keep that atom out as a way of having, you know, an attempted stabilizing our chemical compound with stronger bonds. So that's a start on how to think about it. You know, I dropped out a chemistry and physics, in college, because I thought journalists don't need it. I was wrong. You really don't stay in.
I'm probably, no, I don't even know how right. I'm getting this, but it works well enough for 10th graders. I see what you're saying is like there are just some chemicals that that when combined can be absolutely combustible. But as parents, they don't have it written on their forehead. Like, this chemical is going to combust step away. Protect your child, right? Or the chemical you have today in two and a half years, you need to chuck it because it is going to absolutely be volatile.
You really don't know. And then in the pandemic, you have no data to work with, right? We just have no idea what's going on with kids and what, you know, what their moods are. And so it's a very tricky time. But then, okay, once we have this metaphor that I am now going to beat to death. Are you ready for this or not? I'm going to beat it to death. This is the most chemistry and physics I've ever done in my life. Okay. And me too. And I'm kind of making up chemistry. But I think
actually like, let's just go with it. We're going to pause for a second, take a quick break, and then we're going to come back for this chemistry lesson that even I will be able to understand. I love doing laundry now because of earth breeze. Earth breeze are these eco sheets that look just like a dryer sheet, but it's ultra concentrated liquidless. So you don't have that drippy goo from plastic jugs. Earth breeze is really tough on stains, even odors. And if you've got teens,
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Bumble knows that you know exactly what's right for you. So whatever it is you're looking for, Bumble's features can help you find it. Date now on Bumble. Welcome back to the Aslisa podcast. We are talking about combustible friendships, chemistry, Lisa, take it away. Okay, so we're back to this idea that this friendship group may have kicked her out to strengthen their bonds to stabilize their chemical compound by kicking this poor atom out.
So now we have a free floating atom. Now with this metaphor we can also explain something else that the parent observed in this letter which is this girl is reaching out to other kids who are nice to her online but don't include her at school. What's that about? That is about them having stable compounds they don't want to compromise. Oh, and so if you think about arena like let's say you had three or four girlfriends that you just love from college and you went on a girlfriend's
getaway once a year. And that's your thing and you love each other and you've got this stable chemical compound of the four of you do great together. There might be someone you all know from college and like from college who you would never invite on your girlfriend's weekend because it would mess up the working chemistry that the four of you have been able to establish. I can understand that. I can understand that. It totally makes sense and that explanation I will tell you for me
has helped a lot of kids when they're like I don't get it. This person's nice to me individually, that person's nice to me individually. This kid will even do stuff with me on the weekends but when we get to school I'm not invited into their friendship group. And having my belabored, over elaborate metaphor that it's not that they actually don't like that kid. It's that they have a stable compound and adding an atom to it could destabilize it. And so
they're not going to do it. So it'll be nice to that atom individually but they won't bring that person in. So where does this leave the girl? Like what should she do? I mean I get it. These are atoms don't want to mix together but you know she just wants what her life was like before with her friends and she can't seem to find any friends. This is so wrong. It's so bad. Okay so here's the non-pandemic advice and then we have to think about how to make this work in a pandemic
because it's hard in no pandemic. This is even harder in an actual pandemic. So one piece of advice is look for compounds that are looking to add an atom. You know not all compounds have sort of consolidated and become very stable right. So if we think about you know the college friends or maybe some nice girls who are great to her on the weekends but don't let her in at school they're not
looking for a new member of their chemical compound. So it is often the case in schools or in communities that there are you know groups of kids who are not so stabilized in that compound and they're open to adding kids. You know that they they're flexible or they're easy going about
it or they're not worried that adding a kid will destabilize their relationships. Yeah. And one of the ways you see this play out under normal conditions is that sometimes and this is typically again been more seventh-eighth grade but like we can now do the pandemic multiplier and push this deeper into development. You'll see a seventh-grader who notices that there's this pack of probably
popular kids that they want to be part of. And let's often assume this is a sort of stable compound of popular kids who are not necessarily looking to add atoms and they will set their sites on joining that compound and keep running into resistance. And they'll have all these other nice kids in the class who are like you can sit with us coming out with us like part of us
and they're rebuffing it, rebuffing it, missing it, missing it. And so for them it's also helpful to say kid look at this you're trying to join a compound that's not looking to add atoms there's this really nice compound that is inviting atoms like yeah give it up about the popular kids. But how can you tell you know the mom said she's gone to other friends and tried but they just how does a teen figure out who's looking to add atoms right? Okay so it's a little easier under
non-pandemic conditions. There are those like you can tell that there's a spot at their table they you know they it won't disrupt what they've got going for you to slide in and join right like kids can sense that. So then the question is how do you sense that in a pandemic and you know as tricky lunch is super weird now for kids and then the masks make it very hard to read cues. So I think we want to throw that idea on the table to say look there are probably compounds
that are atom friendly right now looking to add people your job is to look for them. And sometimes Rina I will tell you once you get this elaborate metaphor going with the kid it helps them move their energies in a better direction because often they're like why did that compound drop me I need to I want to try to be back with that compound so they're thinking about the compound that drop them. And then they're thinking why won't these kids who are nice to me on the weekends let me
in at school and so then they're thinking about that. And so one of the things that can help is to say you know let those go like the you know that that is beyond your power or those kids have their own dynamics going on that are going to continue to make this challenging for you turn your
energies to who's out there who would welcome you and so that can help. Okay now I want to go back for one second quickly to the friends who are nice online but not in person that really bothers me because I feel like isn't that a red flag and it couldn't this be a good teachable moment for you know adulthood down the road of people who are kind of nice but then in larger groups maybe not
how would you approach that and deal with that piece. It's funny you mentioned that because like don't you feel like that has happened to you and I remember in my training were there people who if it's one-on-one are pleasant to you but then in a group they're not and I'll tell you what I
remember it most distinctly Rina. It was when I was really early in my training actually I was I wasn't even in training yet I was just out of college and I was working actually at the Yale Child Study Center and I was a full-on research grant I mean I was as like low on the totem pole as
you could possibly be and there was a very esteemed psychologist who I happened to know through a connection who had met with me and had lunch with me and was nice to me when it was just the two of us and I remember I was walking down the hall one day and I happened to be with somebody who even ranked above him and we ran into him and he pretended not to know me. Oh my gosh and I think it was that he felt like it would not look good if he knew who our research grant was this is you know
this is not a person I hold. Yeah and it was really funny because the person I was with who was a total class act she said hey do you know Lisa and then he was like oh yeah that's like oh my
lord I was like I just lost all respect for this person right. So it totally happens so I do think Rina you are on to something we're at home between the letter writer and this child you could say you know you learn things about people watching how they treat you in private and how they treat you in public or you know Rina it's like going on a date with somebody who mistreats a
waiter you're like okay this is all. Yeah rule number one if I see that amount you're done right so I think there's something there okay I have one other way this child could try to go at this or this parent could try to support her and again back to this now absolutely beaten to death metaphor
the other thing is to look for other free floating atoms you know it sometimes happens that there are other kids who have had a hard time finding their group are not latched in and you know often if you say do a 10th grader or even a 7th grader well who else isn't really you know plugged in
right now or who else seems to be kind of alone at lunch they'll be like I don't want to hang out with that kid you know like that kid's not my first choice and I think this is a good moment to say you know you might want to be a little bit more flexible about that or you might want to be open
to the idea that you have more that you could enjoy with that child then you thought or you know just keep an open mind like you're a free floating atom they're a free floating atom yeah being alone is really awful I wouldn't rule out making some bonds with some other free floating atoms
at least for now yeah I want to ask you also about the piece of this letter about whether she should go to the other moms I know you're a big advocate of sort of trying to help kids work it out but is this a case where she should approach the other moms and talk about this this is such a tough
long rena so I think I would say it depends and I think a lot of what it depends on is the kind of relationship the mother has with the other moms what if it's just you know in this pandemic we're so isolated what if it's like you know tangential they're not super close to begin with but I
probably know that girls are really yeah I just think it's worth that maybe having a teachable moment and well it's it's hard because here's the thing if somebody called you and said your kids mistreating my kid you know most parents instinct is to stick up for their own kid totally yeah
and it's pretty rare for a parent to say I've been wondering if my child was mistreating your child and then you know so I think it's in some ways it's not likely to go well it's likely to make things worse I will also tell you very few 10th graders would ever make want you to make that phone call
hmm and I think you know that's another thing you know that these are even though there is this maturation or delay there's still 15 year olds are still sophomores in high school probably and I mean can you imagine when you were a sophomore in high school if your mom picked up the phone
and called another soft-nosed mom cringe gratified no where it gets hard read it and and this is something I don't remember growing up with is when the parents are friends and when I was growing up like my folks had no contact with my friends parents like I mean they kind of knew who they were
and they was like recognizing them in the grocery store but they did not socialize with them they did not look to socialize with them and interestingly in my own daughters lives there are parents of their friends who I really like and I have made a point of waiting
until my girls are out of the house to become friends with them wow really yeah you mean like off to college yeah like with my older daughter I mean there's a couple of her friends whose parents I think are absolutely terrific and I can imagine reaching out to socialize with them but I've
been very deliberate in my mind about waiting because yeah because I see this drama stuff go down wow and I often see it feeling that much worse when there's the layer of the parents friendships yeah yeah over the layer and you know this is like my community is big enough and we have enough
degrees of freedom that I can easily do this this isn't so easy in communities where kids stay in the school for a very long time and so people who are your play great play group when your kids were five or still the friends you know so I'm not saying every family canner should do what I did
but I think this gets a lot harder when there's friendship drama among a friendship group and the parents are also like go on vacations together or spend time together so for me I think a lot of it would depend if there's not that layer of being connected socially I would probably just leave it
alone have you witnessed during your time practicing like you know two sets of parents who are super close that their kids are super close and when there's an issue how how have they dealt with it that's been successful I think it's really hard I think it's really hard and I think it does take
incredible grace on both sides yeah because sometimes I mean it can be really ugly between the kids and the parents are like so what are we going to do about the fact that we were all going to go vacationing together you know in and so I think that parents have to be able to call and say look
this is awkward and I don't know who's to blame and I'm actually not even interested in pointing fingers but how are we going to do this in a dignified way that honors the fact that our kids aren't getting along right now I mean I think that that's got to be happening that is so good just confront
it say it for what it is and don't judge just say I'm not interested in pointing fingers or judging I love that that's great yeah so but I this letter broke my heart and also I'm so glad that we had a chance to think it through because I think it really gets at a huge number of
dynamics that a lot of people are struggling with wow you broke my heart twice first this letter was just so painful when we got this in our inbox but also to hear you say that you are hearing this like this is exploded everywhere so I just hope maybe today in this podcast parents
were struggling with it no they're not alone because so often the issues we tackle are issues I had no idea so many people are struggling with yeah and I think especially with teenagers when you're kid is struggling you can't call everybody about it you know if you're four-year-old is
you know having terrible sleep you can like put up on Facebook my four-year-old isn't sleeping help yes so once it's an adolescent it becomes very private and so this is why I'm so grateful for our community and our podcast is that we can talk about these things and hopefully people don't
have to feel so alone this is great so what do you have for at least a for parenting to go for parenting to go on this one I think the gift the parents can give adolescents is the gift of perspective so when you are a 15-year-old and you have been dumped by your friends it really
feels like the end of the world like it really feels like there's no point to anything anymore and and that is a very powerful sense of just this is awful how do I move forward as a middle-aged parent you know this stinks it's awful but it will be a really
yucky chapter in a very long book and so I think that the parenting to go on this is that we want to walk a very delicate line as adults in both validating how deeply upsetting this is for our kids or anything like this and then saying I want you to know I am a hundred percent confident
that you will look back on this and it will be something that happened it will not be the story that defines your life the gift of perspective I love that that is so great and next week we're going to talk about whether you should kick your child off of tick-tock we'll
have more on that next week I'll see you next week Lisa I'll see you next week thanks for joining us be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get the episodes just as soon as they drop and send us your questions to Ask Lisa at drleesademore.com
and now a word from our lawyers the advice provided on this podcast does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment therapy or other types of professional advice or intervention if you have concerns about your child's well-being consult a physician
or mental health professional if you're looking for additional resources check out Lisa's website at drleesademore.com we'll see you next week so you've got an idea for a business the store of your dreams there's just one thing to figure out
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