My coworker is unbearably negative

the company party. Let's get started. Being around negative people who complain all the time can be exhausting, and when that negative person is your coworker and you're trapped in an office with them, it can be really draining not to be able to get away from this constant flow of complaints. And that is the situation that today's collar is in. Hi and welcome to the show. Hi, thank

you for helping me. Allison. Well, let's see you have a pretty intractable problem here, So let's see if you still feel that way at the end of the show. So you have a co worker who is incredibly negative. She's a bookkeeper who comes in a few times a month, and she shares an office with you when she does, and she complains constantly about life and about work, and

to really paint a picture here. In your letter to me, you wrote that her negative rants go on and on to the point that, to quote your letter, I want to take a shower from the negativity in the room. When she leaves, I open windows and vacuum and play

happy music. I'm not exaggerating, Nope. You you also wrote, I feel like this is a non consensual therapy relationship, and she just expects me to be her therapist, and you're looking for a way to set boundaries with her and maybe talk to her about the negativity without hurting her feelings, or at least in a way that is socially acceptable to say. Am I getting all that right?

That is exactly right she and you know I should say, because the letter was written in a point of frustration, that she is a lovely person like overall, like I mean, she's she has such a great heart, and she's such a great human being. It's just that mindset is so negative that just some stuff comes out, and so I

don't That's part of the reason. I just really don't want to hurt her feelings or I don't I want to be more socially conscious of her just because um, you know, she is lovely, just just hard to be with. It's really draining, I think, to be around someone who is just so negative, and it's especially hard at work where you need to focus and you're this trapped, captive audience who can't just walk away because you've got to sit there and try to work. How long has this

been going on? This is I've been with this company for almost three years and it's twice a month for three years, um, and she'll come in for a couple of hours twice a month, which thankfully it's not every day like it was every day. I don't know if I could have stayed with the company, but like, you know, twice a month is like, but yeah, it's a while, Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a blessing. I guess that it's only twice a month, but if it's really intense, I bet

it feels like a lot. What kinds of things does she complain about? Oh my gosh. I mean it can go from something that's going on, you know. Sometimes it's just sharing something in her life with her, you know, marriage or her household, or guests coming into stay, or her recent trip on. Sometimes it's just local news in the area. Sometimes it's national news. I mean, it's pretty much if I a conversation topic comes up, it's going

to go in a negative direction. I think occasionally I'll find a couple of safe topics that she can that like it's only like semi negative, where it's not as bad. But like, sometimes she can get so worked up on stuff that she'll get emotional, even over stuff, which can be really hard to deal with when I'm trying to take calls or handle stuff at work as well. Fascinating.

I feel like I've had a few people like this in my life, maybe not to this extent, because as we get into the details that you shared in your letter, I think it really sounds a lot worse than the way chronic complainers usually present. But I think in general it's so unpleasant to be around. But the thing that is fascinat aeting to me is that for the complainer, a lot of the time, it doesn't seem to be

unpleasant to them at all. It's almost like they get some kind of enjoyment from the complaining, but it's not clear why. To some extent, I kind of think maybe

they just have a different tolerance for unpleasant conversation. Like A really minor example of this is that my mother loves to complain about frustrating customer service experiences, Like I don't know why that's her thing, but she loves it, and she takes real joy in recounting in great detail the frustrating conversation that she had with the phone company

or with the plumber. And when I say she takes joy in it, she really seems to love it, like I guess that it's venting, but with her, it seems like a form of storytelling that she finds interesting and entertaining, but which I find highly stressful to listen to. I mean, I have my own annoying customer service experiences and I don't need the stress of anyone else's. And she especially likes to call me after I've had a really long and stressful work day and launch into these lengthy diatribes.

So I eventually had to ban her from doing it because it really does stress me out. And I think she was baffled by that because she doesn't find it stressful, she's entertained by talking about it, so she can't relate. So I wonder, is your sense that your coworker is sort of a happy grump in that way. I mean, I don't know that it right, that's exactly what's up. I'm glad you've pinpointed that because that's yeah, that's exactly it.

And I love that too, because it's always it's always like when you know, like you really don't need it too, like you're like, you know, I really didn't need this today, like I I have. I'm working on my own stuff here. So yeah, I love your I love your story about your mom there. That's awesome because I do think there are some people where they're not a happy crump, like their energy is just all dirt clouds totally aside from

the actual content of what they're saying. But then there are these people who like really do seem to take a lot of pleasure in the negative stuff that they're sharing. Yeah, absolutely fascinating. Now, when he said before that it feels like she wants you to be her therapist. Is she also like trying to get you to talk through her

problems with you or does she just want someone to listen. Well, what's interesting is that she treats it like she wants me to talk through it with her, but she doesn't actually want that. So what will happen is when we are talking, I'm she'll just start on a on a monologue about something like maybe, um, you know, she had an argument with her husband the night before, so she'll start talk. She'll just be like, oh, my husband sucks.

And then she'll just start arguing, like saying like we have this argument, she's so annoying and all of that, and she'll like get try to get my confirmation, Like she'll be like isn't that terrible? Like isn't that the worst? Um? And I'm just like and sometimes it's I've tried where I'm just like sure, yeah, and then like I just changed topics. Um. I do a lot of just body language. It's like I'm not interested in hearing more. Sometimes I'm like,

you know, um, I don't know. It sounds like he's right. Like when I'm like just finding any way to change the subject. Sometimes I just changed the subject. But like if i'm if I'm asking her outright like how you know, well,

what did you do? Like how did that happen? And she'll she'll just start making it like talking worse about it, like I don't know how to explain it completely, but like she just kind of keeps It's it's almost like she wants my confirmation about how terrible it is, but she doesn't actually want me to help her with the problem, and she just wants to vent. As you're saying it, I'm thinking how funny it would be if you actually just like double down on the negativity. I don't actually

recommend this, but like, it's interesting. There was one time where we were talking um and she was complaining about some people who were visiting and they've been there for way too long. They were just kind of staying in her house and she doesn't have she's not very good at setting boundaries with people, and so what she what was happening is these people were just staying at her house and she's like, my husband's just telling me that

I should just tell them to leave. And I was like, I agree with your husband, you need to tell them to leave. And she's like and she just had a huge argument with her husband over this, and she was like she just kind of gave me this like startled look, and then she just kept going like talking about how

terrible it is that they're there. And I'm like, all right, I'm gonna go file stuff like all right then, yeah, So it really does make me wonder that what would happen if you were like, yeah, your husband is a huge oh my gosh. Right. I think she'd just be like, yeah, I agree with you, and then she'd like tell me

more stories about it. I'm like, I don't want to keep this going so alight that happen to think about it, though, Let's talk about what you have tried to do, because I know from your letter that you have tried a whole bunch of different strategies and none of them have worked. So will you run through what you've tried so far? Absolutely? I can do that. So one thing I've tried is finding some certain safe subjects that work. That's like food.

For example, we can talk about food. I'm I'm I'm vegan, and she's fascinated with that, so we talk about that sometimes and she'll tell me about a restaurant she went to. I'm in Like the complainings minimal there, so it kind of makes it less negative, but it is, and actually like there's no positive subjects with her. Sometimes I'm just I make sure I'm really busy with other things, and

I like save up. There's certain work that I can't do when she's there, so I just save up the work that I have to do when she's there, um, which it works okay, but sometimes she just like monologues in between, Like I'll make a phone call and I'll get off the call and then she'll just monologue at me for a little bit um while she's working, or she'll just talk to herself, like if I'm going and filing in the other room, she'll just like throw She'll

be like complaining about the work she's doing, or like why does he do this? What's this? In the retorting questions that sound like she actually wants me to like jump in, but she doesn't, And I have to keep checking because I kind of need to know what she needs sometimes to take a lunch when she's there, And though it's not always, I'm not able to do it

all the time. Sometimes I told you about just disagreeing with her, like, um, you know my husband should just tell them to leave, and I'm like, yeah, I agree with your husband. She just kind of moves on. I'll ask her what she you know, the big thing is the thing where she'll be complaining. I'll say, you know,

what are you gonna do? About that, and she'll go, I don't know, and then she'll continue to rant, and sometimes she'll just rant about how she doesn't know what to do, but she doesn't actually want to know what to do. She just wants to complain about how she does know what to do. And then sometimes I'll say like, hey, I can't talk right now, I need to do this work. And then she, like I said earlier, she just does the little comments like she'll be working and she'll be like,

why does he work it this way? Or why does this happen this way? Or you know, what's this supposed to be? And I don't know, like what I'm supposed to jump in on and what I'm not. So I'll just be listening to her talking in the other room and then she'll just yell my name, and I'll I'll jump in and I'll be like, oh right, sorry, wasn't listening. Let's take a quick break here and then come back

and talk about what to do. One of the things that was so fascinating to me about your letter is that you have already tried the things that I would normally suggest that you try, and that in most cases would have some effect on the person but she is impervious to all of the normal things that you would try in this situation. The thing about asking her, so what do you plan to do about whatever negative thing

she's complaining about? Sometimes can work really well because I mean clearly not here, but but sometimes it will get the person out of venting mode. And honestly, sometimes the reason it works is not because it actually shifts them into action mode, but because it makes you an unsatisfying person to vent to. Because if someone just wants to vent and they keep hearing in response, well, so what

are you going to do about it? Often they will take their venting somewhere else because you're no fun to vent to at that point. But that apparently did not work with her. I learned that from you, Alison, so that's why I did it. Let you down. This is terrible. It works in other areas too, It's worked before, just not with this particular person. Okay, see, she's very she's very tricky. It's interesting. I do think there are up

at different options that you can still try. Um, let's talk more about the strategy of being busy with work while she's there. So if you directly say I can't talk now, I have to focus on work, she just starts talking out loud to herself, right, yes, exactly when that happens. Have you ever tried saying, Hey, I'm sorry, but I've got to focus over here. Can I ask you not to talk to yourself while I'm working? I have not asked her to do that. Would you feel

comfortable doing that? Because I think it's a reasonable thing to do, But I also know that it's the kind of thing that some people feel awkward about doing. I think she would be really annoyed with me, But I'm kind of okay with that, So, um, i'd be comfortable asking her to be quiet. It's funny, I haven't even really thought of doing that, but yeah, that's I could definitely ask her to hey, could you not talk to yourself? That would probably help that she might even do it.

She just might just be really annoyed in the process. But I mean, I'm okay with that. Yeah. I think you may have to get any of these to work. You may have to accept that she's going to be a little annoyed with you, but that that's okay. I mean, her being annoyed with you is not the worst thing in the world. You're really annoyed with her, right now,

that's true, spread out a little bit. Yeah. I think often people don't think to just be very direct about that because when someone is sort of already acting in a way that is outside the bounds of like the social contract that we normally have with each other about what isn't isn't okay, behavior like what she's doing is sort of outside those bounds, and I think when someone is it can be hard for the other person, you in this case, to to even know what to do

because this person isn't playing by the same rules that you're used to people playing by. So I'm not surprised that it hasn't that you haven't thought, Oh, I could just ask that, but I would, I would try that, you know, say you know, hey, I'm sorry, I've got to focus over here. Can I ask you to not talk while I'm working? And then if she starts back up, and she might because I suspect it's deeply ingrained habit with her, you can remind her. I mean, you can say, Jane,

I really need to focus on what I'm doing. I've got to ask you to stop doing that, and you can, you know, you can be nice about it you can. It can sound like fake, exasperated or whatever tone works for the relationship. You might need to do it a few times in order to kind of train her, maybe even more than a few times, but I bet if you did it enough, it would eventually help. That's a good point too. Yeah, And you know, it's interesting as you're saying this, because she's been doing this for a

couple of years. I wonder I'm kind of wondering if maybe a big picture conversation before that might be helpful, like to talk to about hey, sometimes you know, and sometimes honestly, like there's times where I don't have as much work to do when she's there because I'm still waiting. I'm kind of waiting on her, So they're going to be times where that won't be the case. But while I'm working, maybe she'll be able to calm down or I can save up work then and do it more

when she's around. So I kind of love that. And maybe even just something as as you're saying this, I'm just thinking of like, hey, like sometimes when you're talking aloud to yourself, it might be I get distracted. Could you would you mind just not talking out loud to yourself like that, it's really hard for me to focus. That's perfect, it's polite. She may still be annoyed, but it's it's really I mean, any outside observer looking at

that would say that's a perfectly reasonable, polite request. It's a place of work. You know that there's a recourse that we have to make of each other. Sometimes I like the idea of you doing that kind of big picture like, hey, sometimes this is distracting, and then in the moment, if it's continuing to happen, you can say like, hey, I've got to ask you to to rain that in or hold that down, and she'll have that framework that you've already set up of understanding what you're asking. I

kind of love that. It also kind of it makes the problem that she's talking and not what how negative she is, because I'm not going to change that about her. So but I can have her talk list, which is which is an improvement. So yes, absolutely, And I think I want to talk a little bit more about worrying that she might be annoyed, because I think so often

that constrains people. And she's similar to yours, um where people feel like I've I've exhausted all the things that I feel polite saying, the person is still engaging in the problematic behavior, so now I'm out of options. But I think sometimes to get this kind of thing to stop, you have to get creative and not feel constrained by the same etiquette that you would follow with someone behaving

more normally. And it's possible she won't even find it rude because clearly she's not using the same etiquette playbooks. But even if she does think it's a little rude or something that's okay. I mean, it's not like you're calling her a jerk. You're telling her that you need to focus on work, and you'll be doing it more assertively than you have previously. But again, I mean the reason for that is that her behavior is so out

of the norm. So I think it's okay to do something that doesn't feel perfectly polite here because she's created a situation where you're sort of force too. None of that is to say that what we're talking about isn't polite. I mean, the sort of conversation that you're proposing is very polite. I think where you might start feeling less polite is if you have to do those follow up reminders where you're like, hey, you've got to keep it down over there, But that's really okay to do. Yeah,

that's a really good point. Um, Now if that doesn't work, because I want to be realistic that she so far has seemed immune to all reasonable tactics. M one other thing, I mean, our headphones an option you could explain at the outset, Hey have started wearing headphones because they helped me concentrate, And then maybe you could just play music

and block her out while she's there. That's something I would have done, except that I'm it's just not an option where she is so because I have to take calls at the other So I switched desks and all my music and anything I would normally play because I'm I'm very fortunately get to work alone a lot at the time, so I play music all the time in the office, but I don't get to I don't get

to do that when she's there. So got it? Okay? Um, Yeah, I'm it might be that at some point you've got to figure you can cut down on some of this by telling her directly, but that there's always going to be something that you can't get away from. If you need to interact with her. But taking it from like if it's a ten, now, taking it down to a four would probably still be a huge improvement in your quality of lice. Yeah, especially because it's only twice a month,

Like you know, tend to a four. I can work with the four. So we'll pause here for a quick break and then we'll be right back. So we were talking about addressing it head on, about the talking, but I think potentially you could also address the negativity. Like I would start with just the talking piece of it

and see where that gets you. If that gets you down to a four, then great, But if she if it doesn't really take care of the problem, and there's still lots of negativity being exuded into your space, and you want to talk about the negativity. In theory, I'm hesitating here because if you were around her daily, I would say to definitely do what I'm about to advise. Since you're not, I don't know that it's worth it.

But in theory, at some point you could say something to her like, hey, I don't know if you realize how often you've vent here about things that you feel really negatively about. But it's a lot and it can be really tough to work around that. And you know, I try to keep a more positive energy in here and always being so negative as making my own job unpleasant. But you know, as I'm saying this, I feel like it's maybe too much for someone who's just in there

a few times a month. It might be, although it could help if she gets really on a roll like where she's really getting negative, I can kind of stop and say, hey, you know, like we're kind of trying to work here and this is getting into a really negative space, and um, you know, I totally get that you're in paining of stuff going on, but you know,

maybe you need to go and find figure out. Like you know, I don't want to say like go get professional help, but find a way to say, like, hey, like if you need somewhere to event like this, this is not something that I'm trained to do. Um, you know, and I can say it like that even and you know she's probably going to hate that, but like, you know, if if she's feeling the need to come and have a non consensual therapist, maybe she needs a real therapist,

which she does not have. So you know, that might be something to say. But I think that's something I would need to be really careful with it to be about timing, especially so I don't even know that I would say it, but like that might be something to just have ready to go in my mind. I love so much about what you just said, for I think the wording itself is really good and that sort of general concept and I'll so your point about timing but

have is exactly right. But thinking it through beforehand, like thinking if I, if there ever is an opening to say this, how do I want to say it? Then if there is that opening, you're ready to go and you're not just kind of winging it, because I think with these trickier conversations, if you do just wing it in the moment, sometimes it comes out really differently than

than how you want to do. So No, but I think I think that's great, and I think there's there's a less warmal option to which is just like Jane, I can't handle the negativity today, and I'm banning you

from negative topics while you're here. So I love that that would be good because she totally she'd probably laugh and then like we'd be over it, and then she get negatively, Hey, exactly, Yes, I kind of love that that might help too, So you could try that, and that doesn't make it like a big thing, Like now I'm having this serious conversation with you, you're just kind of throwing it off, and it's it's hard to argue with that. You know, what's she gonna say? Like, no,

I will talk about negative topics while I'm here. I love that. That would probably make a huge difference. Oh good, Okay, so there's something to definitely try. And really, I mean like if you do say it and then you feel kind of rude having said it, it might get through to her where nothing else is. And again, like she's the one who's being rude here, so you don't need

to dance around it out of politeness. Yeah, and I mean it might be helpfully you know how of a place that she goes twice a month where instead of she's just venting, it becomes like a happy place to go where we just have fun. So and I imagine she doesn't have I know that a lot of friends don't spend a lot of time with her because of this.

This is her whole life. So maybe just having twice a month where we can have fun, this might be it might be good for her, and I suspect you will have to do those reminders a bunch, you know. I don't think you're going to say it once and it's going to be solved. I think it's you're going to have to keep it up. But if you can do it in kind of a fun, joking way where she doesn't, it doesn't feel like a personal attack. You're just like, hey, we're negativity free in this space today,

maybe it'll work. The other stuff I wanted to mention to look at is just whether there are changes that you can make to the physical environment, like do you have to be in the same space as her, does she have to come into the office at all, that sort of stuff. In terms of changing the physical environment. My boss is very understanding, and there's been I've done a couple of things in that area that wasn't in my original list that I sent you, which was He's

just very He's so supportive of this. UM. I think he when I first came in, UM, there was a point where he he noticed that I was because sometimes he'll send me on errands out of the office, where I was kind of asking, hey, do you have any errands? Right before she'd come in and he kind of picked up and he was like, how do you like working with with Jane? And I'm like, uh, well, it's kind

of Tubby's like try again. I'm like, she's one of the most negative people I've ever met, and he's like, yeah, I totally get that. I'm the same way and um, and so he actually if he has something for me to do, he usually tries to set it for when she's around to have me go out. And that's kind of why I've taken lunch is there too, because it gives me a break and then but like she has to come in the office and the way that it's

set up is the same. Though. I'm really fortunate that there are there is an angle where I could be talking to my boss too, because he's i mean, even just the last last week, I went on a break and he needed me to do something. As I was coming back for my break, and he was on the phone with me outside of the office and he was like,

I can hear in your voice you're frustrated. Take longer break, And he's like, don't go back to the office till like half an hour from now, and just gave me a free paid break and basically it was like, just don't worry about it, and it's he's very good about paying attention to work life balance that way, and just just like, don't worry about it. It's cool that way, you can be in a good space by the time

she leaves. And he was totally helpful. So that's probably the closest thing to changes that could be made, got it. I like your boss at least in this right. Yeah, he's great, he's so Yeah, he's awesome. Yeah. I mean if she were, if she were daily and you were having to do this daily, I would be really curious about why he keeps her on because I would say

this is worth changing bookkeepers over. But I can kind of see it if he doesn't have that much interaction and you're with a great bookkeeper, Yeah, I mean what she's she's technically fantastic and she doesn't interact with anybody with me, so she's pretty great for everyone else. Then

it's not anything. I mean, he calls, he always calls, he takes what I've noticed, he has one phone call he makes to her every time she comes, and he like he listens and talks to her, and she does the same thing with him on the phone with me right there, I'll listen to I'll hear it, and uh yeah, he does one and then he's done, and that he doesn't pick up calls from the office except he knows I'm in there, So I think he has the same problem.

People are very strange. Well, so that's basically my advice. Under ordinary circumstances, I would have a lot of confidence in it, except that, because you have tried all of these other very logical things to try without success, I am less confident in it than I normally would be. But I think that because this is about really directly telling her, like, hey, I need you to cut this out.

Maybe it'll go better than the previous things have. Yeah, and you know, I kind of said even before we started recording that, like, if the answer to this was you know, there's no option here, you're just going to have to deal with it twice a month and be like I told you, I was like, it's fine if that's the result, because I totally get this is really

a more difficult situation. But I feel like what you've given me is really helpful because, um, it's something that can at least make it better, which is totally great because you know it is only twice a month and we can I can always make it a little bring it from a ten to a four, and that's going to make a huge difference. Good. And I think that's a healthy attitude to have about its manager expectations. Yeah, well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank

you for having me. This is so helpful. Thanks for listening to the Ask a Manager Podcast. If you'd like to come on the show to talk through your own question, email it to podcast at Asking Manager dot org, or you can leave a recording of your question by calling eight five five six work. That's eight five five f

T six nine seven five. You can get more ask a Manager at ask a Manager dot org or in my book Ask a Manager how to Navigate clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses, and the rest of your life at work. They Ask a Manager Show is a partnership with How Stuff Works and is produced by Paul Decktt. If you liked what you heard, please take a minute to subscribe, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Google Play. I'm Alison Green and I'll be back next

week with another one of your questions. M.