Help! I work for a micromanager

going to talk about micro managers. When you look at all the different categories of bad management, micromanagement, a boss who hovers and is just way too involved in your work is one of the most common categories. And what's more, a lot of bosses who micromanage do this confusing thing where sometimes they're really really hands off, and then suddenly they swoop in and they're really hands on. And that is the situation that today's color is in. Hi, and

welcome to the show. Hi, thank you for having me. So you sent me a letter saying you've been at your job a little less than a year and overall you really like it, but there is a problem. Your boss is a very respected person in your field, but you're only the second person he's ever managed, and it

kind of shows. Sometimes you will go long stretches with no interaction with him, but when he is stressed about a big project or something important, he micro manages you big time, and he does it in a way that makes you feel like he thinks you're not competent. You wrote in your letter to me that he'll explain your own work back to you, even when you've been spending

days working on it. And on a recent project, he was checking in on your progress literally every fifteen to thirty minutes, doing this thing where he was finding mistakes in real time and correcting them before you had even had a chance to look over your work. And those were cases where you would have found those mistakes yourself if he had just stepped back and given you some room. And you wrote that it's gotten so bad that it aims you have been ending the day crying. Am I

getting all that right? Yeah? That's it was very specific to that project that I was working on, but I started to get the impression that this is a trend that I should begin addressing. Yeah, And I also want to note that you said that you know you're a good employee, and he actually poached you from your old job to come work for him, so you know that he likes your work. It's not a case where he's

covering because your work is bad. Right. I think that's an accurate description, And I would even go as far to say as like we are friends. And that's one of the reasons that I'm so adamant about trying to figure out how to address this properly, is because I like the way that we work together, and I think we have a really good working relationship and I don't want to damage that by saying the wrong things or critiquing the way that he manages me. Tell me more

about that. What is your relationship like with him? So we professionally have like known of each other for some time. We work in a some small industry, so everyone kind of knows each other, so to speak. And I've always had a lot of respect for him, And have you know when I was looking to move jobs, his was a name that I knew and was honestly very flattered when I got the email because I was I was shocked that I did not expect expect him to know

who I was. I'm a junior level staffer and he's more of a senior level management person in our field, and we have we work very well together. Um our current situation is, uh, we are remote, so he isn't always in the office with me at the same times, and so I think that also plays a role in that hands off aspect where I will go a very long time without talking to him. But because it's when he's actually in the office that the micro managing picks up.

And how comfortable do you feel with him? It sounds like you have a pretty good rapport. Yeah, very comfortable.

We talk about, you know, very personal things he you know, recently his mom passed away, and that's definitely become a consideration for me as I think about how to have a conversation with him about this micromanagement style that he has, because I he is such an empathetic boss in terms of things that I've experienced personally, and then I've tried very hard to be him be there for him in this time and so you know, we share personal effects with each other because I think he just wants to

foster that kind of open relationship with the people that he works with, both a co workers and people he manages. Yeah, I think his mom dying definitely changes the calculation and when you might address it with him that while that is still really fresh, let's not give him another thing that's stressful to put on his plate. But I do think a couple of months down the road, it's definitely something that you can bring up that you do want

to be sensitive to that timing, of course. Okay, I want to talk about micro management generally, and then I want to get into some specific advice on what you might do here. So I think the first thing to talk about is what micro management means, because people use

it to describe a whole bunch of different things. It is not just being involved in your work, because good managers do stay involved in things like getting aligned on what outcomes you're going for, and checking in on progress as work is progressing, and giving feedback and sometimes course correcting when it's needed. That's all good managers should be

doing that stuff. Micro management, though, is when a manager is dictating exactly how to do the work, watching over every step in the process, refusing to delegate any real decision making, and constantly well I should say and or and or constantly checking up on work that you have shown in the past that you can do well. And micro managers will often manage really low importance projects the

same way that they will manage high importance projects. They don't always differentiate in their approach based on what's actually needed. And I think there are a few reasons why people micro manage. The big one, and I think it is true of every micro manager, is that they genuinely do

not know a better way. They don't actually know how to manage when they've delegated work, but they're responsible for ensuring that it's done and that it's done well, and so they swoop in with this terrible style because they don't have different tools and this is the only way they can think of to make sure that things get done well. I do that there can be more to it too. I mean, of course, for a lot of micro managers, it's rooted in control. You know, they don't

trust their staff to do good work without constant supervision. Again, though, that's not knowing how to manage, because if you're managing effectively, that's not really something you need to worry about, because you do have systems for making sure that everyone is aligned about the work at the outset. You have set checkpoints along the way where you check in on progress so there won't be any surprises. But again, micro managers

don't know how to do that. Now, sometimes people complain that they're being micromanaged, when what is really happening is that they've given their boss good cause to doubt the reliability of their work. That does not sound like the case here. I'm just covering this for the sake of being being thorough. I don't think this what's happening with you.

But sometimes a manager will start managing more closely because the person has shown that they need it, And then you get people complaining about being micro managed when really

their manager is managing appropriately for the situation. So in general, if someone is feeling micromanaged, it's always good to do a gut check, you know, ask yourself, is there anything I've done that could be leading to this, Like have I been missing deadlines or letting things fall through the cracks, or you know, not incorporating my boss's feedback into my work that kind of thing. And actually, let me pause here and ask I don't and I'll get this, get

the sense of that is the situation. But let's make sure does that stuff sound like what could be happening here? No, I don't get that impression either, And I ask a lot of questions in my that's my work style. I just I ask a lot of questions. And I think the problem, one of the big problems that I have noticed, is sometimes he misinterprets questions as ignorance. And oftentimes it's a fact finding mission for me, not a let's explain

to her or the A B c's of this process. Uh, And that's what I meant by explaining my own work back to me. It's oftentimes I'll have spent days on a project and he knows that I've spent days on this project, and I'll ask just a clarifying question and find that his response involves all a lot of the work that I've already done, and if he just, you know, had had had read that or seen that, he just jumps to the conclusion that I don't know what I'm doing at times. And I don't think that's because is

he doesn't think I know what I'm doing. It's because he's been the leading expert in this field for so long, and I don't think he thinks anyone knows what they're doing. Yeah, I don't think it's a personal thing. Sometimes not always. Sometimes with that dynamic, you can kind of head it off by saying to yourself, Okay, I know that he has this tendency. If I just ask the question with no caveat and no prelude, I'm going to get this

whole long explanation that I don't need. And so I'm gonna preface it with I have X, Y, and Z totally covered and I'm fine there, but I have a question for you about this one piece of it, and then ask your question so that you're sort of framing it for him in a very explicit way. Do you think something like that could help I do. I think that's I think about that a lot in terms of

conversations going forward. But it's almost hard in the slack I am generation, where like oftentimes I'm asking what I think is a thirty second question, but the nature of how we just shoot off quick questions over instant messaging, it's sometimes when I think is a thirty second question, he thinks it's. It's almost a generational thing. I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but I'm like, this is a this five second this five word question will be answered in no time, but he wants to write

a small paragraph about it. Yes, So I mean it might be that you just do an experiment here and try the framing that I'm talking about a couple of times and see it, like, be very deliberate about making yourself to it, even when you are thinking, this is just a quick question, and see what happens, see if it works. Because if it does work, great, Now you know that that you just have to be really really explicit about what you do and don't need um. But

it could be an interesting experiment to try. Yeah, I've never thought about doing it that way. I never give set up because I you know, he gives me projects to work on, so I assume he knows what I'm working on. So sometimes I kind of just jump into the meat of it without taking a step back to be like, if I don't provide some context, I'm going

to get that paragraph explanation I'm dreading. Yeah, and you know, it could also be like, yeah, he knows what you're working on, Cassie assigned it to you, but it might not be at the top of his mind at that very moment, you know, especially if you're doing it over I am or something. He's absorbed in something else. You're asking him this question. He's not necessarily pausing to think, Oh, of course, she's been like deep in the stuff for the last few days. I don't need to give her

this background. He might not even be making that connection in his head. Yeah, I never I never thought about it that way. That's a great point. I mean, I could be wrong, and you could try this and it might not work, but I think it's worth trying and seeing what happens. Let's do a short break here, and then I want to come back and talk about micro management some more and then get into what to do

from here. Another thing I wanted to note about micro managers is that in general, this pattern that you are seeing with your boss, where he switches from really hands off to way too hands on, is really common. And what tends to happen is that a manager starts off pretty hands off, give someone a lot of leeway to run with a project, and then maybe it doesn't go according to plan because the manager didn't set clear enough expectations at the start, So then they vow that they're

going to be involved much more closely next time. I don't know that that's what's happening here for you. It sounds like it could be like there's a little bit of out of sight, out of mind going on when he's not in the office, and it sounds like maybe when something is a stressor to him, if he gets more involved, then so I think that is maybe not the explanation in your situation, but it is a really

common one. Yeah, I do think that is partially the situation, especially for my example that I had given him my initial um letter to you because we were working under a really tight deadline. So he had given me a

project that with a forty eight hour deadline. But when I started working on it, I realized pretty quickly, no, this is forty eight hours worth of work, but he needs me to get done in forty eight hours, So you know, I pulled close to all nighters, and then on the second on the third day when it was due, he became very stressed that it wasn't done. But the reality was I didn't feel like I was given enough

time to begin with to do the project. And so then suddenly he started stepping in all the time being like, do you have this, do you have this? Do you have this on repeat every fifteen to thirty minutes, which are valid questions, but I don't know if they would have been the case if he had said a realistic timeline. Ah, yep, so it normally I don't feel like what you're describing as the case, but I have seen that and I think it can be a little bit of both from

my situation. Yeah, so it might be that there are things that you can do in your end to head some of this off at the start, Like so if we could go back in time, which sadly we cannot too when he was first giving you that project, if you knew at the start this is a really tight deadline, and it sounds like you did know that you might do some expectations setting with him, and maybe you did, but if you didn't, it could be useful to say. So, I want to let you know, I think this is

a really tight deadline. Um, I can put in a lot of extra hours and try to make it work, but it does mean that it's going to be kind of a rush, and then you might spell out for him what that means, like if you think about the sorts of things that he was concerned with on the last day. If you're able to kind of prep him for that being the case ahead of time, it might help manage his expectations. Yeah. I try really hard to do stuff like that, but it work. Creep is such

a problem. Yeah, the projects looked like a two day project until I actually got into the weeds and realized that the actual expectations of each of the components were going to take so much time. But you're right, I did figure that out probably within the first two to three hours of work, and I should have taken a step back and said something, but I am such a I consider myself a very deadline driven person and really want to make them and so it was respond appropriately.

I have that same problem too. I completely understand what you're saying. There is benefit to it, so I think, like, again, you might just try experimenting with it if you're in a similar situation in the future, and just see if it does make it better, because if it does, that's going to kind of reinforce in your head, like, oh, I should speak up about this again when it happens. Now.

Big picture, I mean, we can talk about these strategies forgetting it, small pieces of those, but big picture, I think at some point you do want to try talking to your boss about this style that he gets. Sometimes, before I get into how you might do that, have you tried doing that yet at all? Not really, And I think a lot of it is because we have such a good working relationship that I'm afraid to speak up. I'm afraid that I'm going to ruin our relationship or

by even And I don't know. This has nothing to do with micro managing specifically. It just has to do with like employee boss relationships, Like I'm always nervous to critique my boss because I think there are a lot of bosses out there that will take it poorly. Yeah, and I've had experience and some previous jobs we're speaking up had had an impact on my work there and my time there. Frankly, I don't think that's this is

the case. I think that we he wants me to stay and has no interest in finding a way to get me fired, especially because he's the one that brought me over. But I'm still nervous about bringing it up, and I don't know how to not be nervous. I think you will be nervous. I think I don't wait until you can find a way to not be nervous as a sign that like a ha, now it's the time for me to speak up, because he will probably

always be nervous. It is an inherently nerve wracking thing to do, especially the first time you're doing it with a particular manager, because you haven't seen yet firsthand how they react to that kind of thing. So I would say, you're probably going to be nervous. Don't let that be a reason to not do it. I absolutely hear you on some boss is reacting really badly to people bringing up issues in their working relationships. You've got to know

your boss. I mean, if you look at him and you think, okay, he's always been pretty reasonable with me, like, yes, we have some differences, but in general he is like a rational person who doesn't shoot the messenger, who doesn't get really defensive when he hears something that he doesn't like. Those are signs that you can probably have the conversation.

If you were telling me, oh, no, actually he's super defensive and kind of a mean guy, then then I would not be recommending the conversation that I'm about to have. But it sounds like you respect him and you have pretty good rapport. Yeah, I think that's that is. I don't think I know that is an accurate characterization. Okay, So I'm going to tell you how I would say it. And this isn't going to be precisely right because I don't have the details, but I'm going to give you

kind of generally how I would frame it. I would sit down with him and say something like I was hoping we could talk about something I've noticed about how we're working together. A lot of the time, you give me a lot of autonomy, which I really appreciate, but I have noticed that on some projects you'll manage my work so closely that it can be hard for me

to even complete my portion of it. For example, on the X project recently, you are checking into my work so frequently that you were finding mistakes in real time before I had had a chance to review it. And that meant that you thought I was making mistakes that would never have been in the finished work that I turned into you, except that you kept coming back to look at it while it was still in progress. And it was pretty demoralizing because I wasn't having a chance

to perfect it before you saw it. And then I know I'm harping on at one example that you gave me because I was so I was so egregious. So maybe give another example or two here of times when it has happened, and then say, when that happens, it makes me feel like you don't think I'm competent. And I do think that I have a track record of good performance and attention to detail and asking questions when I need to, and so it can be tough to be managed in a way that makes me feel like

you don't see me as capable. And I want to be clear that I absolutely welcome guidance and feedback, but I wonder if there is a way to structure how that happens so that I'm still trusted to get my work done without that kind of really close over say, or is there a reason that you don't feel like

you can trust me without such a close oversight? And then see what he says, but at some point in the conversation, you're going to need to propose, well, actually, let me pause there before I go into this next piece. Deep does that feel like something you could imagine saying it does? And I don't think he would react negatively

to the feedback like that uh. In fact, I can already kind of sense that he will say something along the lines of improving our communications in general, and I think some of that is so tough by having a boss that's remote currently and then sometimes in the office, like the dynamics of how we communicate inherently shift. Uh. And it's hard to find a standardization around that. But I think that would be a very reasonable way for me to approach it with him, and I don't think

that he would react negatively to that. And I think I really think it's a stress like he tries to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders, which is very admirable, but I sometimes don't oh as an employee, like I want to help I want to help him be not as stressed, But if he's projecting that stress back onto me, then it's just creating this weird, unhealthy dynamic. Yes, absolutely, well, I like that you think you could have that conversation

and it would go okay. I want to point out the tone that I was using for that, because it's not like a complaining tone. It's a tone of like, hey, I want to fix this, Like I see this problem. I feel like you and I can do better. Can we talk about how to make that happen. So it's not like I'm just venting to you I hate that you might remanage me. It's more positive than that, and I think that helps. Let's take a quick break and

we'll be right back to talk about this some more. Now, at some point in this conversation, I would try proposing a specific alternative, Like I wouldn't just say it and then wait for him to figure out how to solve it, because there's a very good chance that he won't know how to solve it, Like if this is just sort of the way that he knows how to manage, he might not have anything specific to think of to do instead.

So I would say, you need to be the one to say, could we try blank instead, and let's talk about what blank could be. So to a large extent, it depends on the details of what it is that he's trying to to not or that you are trying

to get him to stop micro managing. But often for micro managers, the thing that they really want is a way to stay engaged enough that they know that the work is happening on schedule, that it's progressing the way that it should that there aren't going to be any awful surprises down the road, like discovering that the work that you've done is totally different from what he needed, or you miss some key deadline, or you didn't do it at all, or whatever it is that they have

a fear of in their head. So what you've got to do is propose a different system that still gives them those things that lets the person stay engaged enough that he does know that things are progressing the way they should, and where he also knows that he will have a chance to give input or change direction if he needs to before it's too late, because that's usually what micromanagers want, that's what all managers want. Micro managers

are just going about it the wrong way. So there is a way to get him that that does not require him hovering over you. Now, usually it would be something like regular status updates and regular check ins, which are a lot less annoying if they're scheduled out ahead of time and you both know when they're going to happen, rather than him like swooping in and asking to check

in like every hour. So if it's a longer term project, you could say something like what I propose is that I send you data weekly or whatever time frame makes sense, so that you can see how the work is progressing. And then we could sit down and touch base for like half an hour every Thursday afternoon or whatever, so that I can update you about where we are and you can look over what I've done so far and

get feedback. And then we can also talk really in depth at the start of the project so that we can both make sure we're on the same page, like that I know exactly what's in your head about what you're looking for, and you know that I know that, so that you can have confidence about the way I'm moving forward. For something shorter term, it's trickier. I mean, if it's something that's going to get done in a day or two, you're not really going to have progress meetings.

That would be silly. So in that case, you would really lean into the part about getting aligned at the start, like really making sure that you know what is in his head, what it should and shouldn't look like, what he worries, the pitfalls are, and so forth. Does that make sense? It does I, and I then definitely like

the idea of check ins on progress. I think one tough thing for the organization that I work for is we are very Google Doc, Google Excel, whatever that equivalent is, Google sheet, That's what it is, Google sheet reliant, And so he can just lurk on the Google Doc as I work, and that that is where a lot of

that came came in. On the specific project. He would just be watching me working in real time because I'm typing things into this Google Doc, and other than telling him to stop, which is absurd, I don't know how to reinforce to him that a weekly check in is going to be good enough when he can just watch me do work. Is that that sounds horrible? Do you have to do it in a Google Doc that he

has access to? Um? Not really, It's just it's the way the company has always worked, where we have hundreds of unnecessary Google Docs for all of the work that we do. UM. And so any project, once a new once a new piece of it starts, is a new Google Doc or Google Sheet is created for tracking the

information on the progress and all of that jazz. So I feel that it would be slightly passive aggressive if I said I'm going to do this and Excel and then upload it later, because that would be such a character shift for both myself and the organization that I think it would be easy for him to sense that something is awry. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like you can't just because I was originally thinking just change it, just

stopped doing that. But it sounds like you can't do that without saying something about it without it seeming weird. But I think it's worth saying something about um. I mean, I might say, Hey, the fact that you were able to go into the Google doc while I was working and see what I was doing in real time and spot what looked to you like mistakes but really weren't because I wasn't finished with it made it a lot

more stressful for both of us. So when there's a project like that in the future, I might not do it in the Google doc while it's still ongoing. I might upload it later and just let him know. But I think with someone who has these tendencies, don't put temptation in his way. Okay, but I agree you have to address it and explain why so that doesn't look shady.

The other thing, too, I think, is with all of this stuff, if he seems resistant or like he can't really figure out another way to do it he would feel comfortable with. One thing is you can try asking if he would do a short term experiment with you, like pick one project, one where you know that normally he would be nervous and kind of micromanaging about it, and ask if you can experiment with with managing it in a different way so that you can both see

whether it goes better or not. And I mean you could even do that with the Google doc things, say hey, can we try it this way and just see how it goes, because that is actually much easier for a nervous micromanager to agree to, or any manager really, because you're not asking him for permanent change. You're just saying, let's try this one limited time project. We'll see how it goes. If it's a disaster, which it probably won't be,

then fine. But if it goes okay, which it probably will, that can make it easier to be comfortable trying it with more things. I'm a big fan actually of proposing stuff as a short term experiment when you can see that your boss is kind of reluctant, because it's so

much easier to get a yes to that. Yeah, I think that's I'm definitely willing to do that, And I also think the timing works out really about we're actually bringing on another member of our team, so we're kind of in that natural state right now where we can hit reset because it's no longer I'm the only one currently being managed. It's not going to be a team of two, so expectation settings are going to shift regardless.

So I feel like it would wouldn't it wouldn't even be out of the question to hit to hit reset and not having suspect almost like having the conversation without having the conversation. Not that I don't want to have the conversation, um, but I especially in the next couple of months, because I'm still very cognizant of all the personal things that have been going on for him. Figuring out a way to try to create little shifts without having this big conversation is kind of is helpful for me.

Good good. I think if you do want to try talking to him directly, one other thing that you can do is you can even ask directly, like, are there things that you would want to see from me that would make you feel comfortable giving me more autonomy and situations like X and y because who knows, I mean, maybe you'll actually hear something like, yeah, I need you to be more consistent about X, or let's get you

more training on why or I mean, who knows. Maybe maybe he'll be stumped by that question and the answer is nothing, But it can be an interesting question to ask. And if the answer is nothing, sometimes I can kind of nudge a manager into realizing like, oh, I do need to kind of loosen up on the reins here. Yeah, no, I I agree. I'm the one thing I definitely want to bring up, UM because I do think it's relevant.

Is I have my performance review next week, so much of what we're discussing right now I want to talk about and I feel like that's almost the perfect setting, But I know it's too soon, and so I'm kind of trying to think through in the next week or so, talking to you and thinking about changes I want to make. How do I have like the light version during my performance review UM without overwhelming him? Yeah, the performance review

is such a perfect time to have this conversation. But I agree with you with it with his mom having just very recently died, I don't think you have to avoid it entirely. Especially in the context of a performance review or you're already you're already talking about how well you work together. I don't it's interesting. If you weren't having a performance review, I would say, yes, give him

some space. He's got enough on his plate. If you're having the performance review, I think you can bring up a fair amount of this as long as you're doing it in like a positive way, like, hey, here's some stuff that I've noticed. I think there's ways that we could work better. Here what my thoughts are as opposed to like I'm so frustrated. It's the I'm so frustrated conversation that I would hold off on in the wake

of a parents death. But if it really is just more like here's some here's some stuff about our working relationship, I think there's room for that. OKU, go with go with your gut on this, because you know him and you know the dynamic and so forth. But but I don't think it's a hard no because it would be

in the context of your performance review. But if you don't do it, you can absolutely wait a month or two and still bring it up, Like, don't feel like, oh the you lost your window of opportunity and now it's closed, you can you can just bring it up as its own separate thing. Okay. Now, I do want to be clear that no matter what you try, it might end up being very hard to change the way that your boss is about this. It's still worth trying, and it's still worth at some point having that explicit

conversation because it has made you so unhappy. And the nice thing about this is if you do have the conversation and nothing changes, now you know that nothing is likely to change. And I know that sounds very depressing, but actually it can be very empowering to know. Okay, I took the steps that were within my control to try to change this. I learned that there isn't anything I can do on my end that will change it.

And now I can figure out what I want to do knowing that this is the situation, and that sometimes means deciding Okay, I don't love this, but I like enough other things about my job here that I will find a way to be okay with this, And at least I don't have to beat my head against the while trying to change it, because I've already tried and I know that it's not changing. Or sometimes it means deciding, you know, I can deal with this for a year or so, but after that I'm probably going to start

looking for a different job. Or sometimes it means deciding, you know, hell no, I don't want to deal with more of this, And now that I know it's not changing, I'm really gonna work and getting out. But it makes your options so much clearer once you've had the conversation and and so you know what will and won't change. Yeah, I hope that's not depressing. No, it's not at all. And I know that that's a reality. And he has mentioned that he wants to kind of hit reset with

this performance review. So that's why I didn't want to push back on the few months timeline, but I didn't want to miss a great opportunity. Yeah, I think you could do it. I don't think it's an absolute no go Okay. So does that help? Yeah? It does. And I feel that I just need to do some you know, internal soul searching from what that tone is going to be, because I think at the end of the day, tone is going to be the make or break um piece

of the conversation. Totally agree, absolutely, um. And again I think the tone is I like you? I like working here. Here's this thing that I've noticed that where I think we could be more effective and can we just kind of problem solve with us together. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Thank you for having me,

Thanks for listening to the Asking Manager Podcast. If you'd like to come on the show to talk through your own question, email it to podcast at Asking Manager dot org, or you can leave a recording of your question by calling eight five five T six work. That's eight five five F T six nine seven five. You can get more ask a Manager at ask a Manager dot org or in my book Ask a Manager how to Navigate clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses, and the rest of your

life at work. The Ask a Manager Show is a partnership with How Stuff Works and is produced by Paul Deckett. If you liked what you heard, please take a minute to subscribe, rate, and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Google Play. I'm Alison Green and I'll be back next week with another one of your questions. M