¶ Introduction to Leslie Champagne
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast . Making art work . We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry , passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts . The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts .
The appearance of a guest on the podcast , the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts . The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice . Here are your hosts Andy Heise and Nick Petrella .
Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners . My name is Andy Heise and I'm Nick Petrella .
Leslie Shampaine is joining us today . She's an award-winning filmmaker and teaching artist . After a 13-year career as a professional ballet dancer , she transitioned into documentary film , producing content for PBS , cbs , the Discovery Channel and National Geographic .
She was part of the production team for the Emmy-winning Kennedy Center Honors , creating over 30 biographical films about American artists . Her feature documentary Call Me Dancer has won 23 prestigious awards , including China's top documentary prize . It has been showcased at major film festivals , new York's Lincoln Center and screened by US consulates in India and Nepal .
As a Fulbright scholar in India , she led workshops and screenings using the universal language of art to foster cross-cultural dialogue . Her dedication to the arts continues to inspire global connections , bridging cultures and fostering understanding through storytelling and mentorship .
Leslie has many more accolades , so please visit her website in the show notes to read more about her and her works . Thanks for being with us today , leslie .
Thank you , I'm very happy to be here .
So let's change gears here , leslie , and talk a little bit about Call Me Dancer how did this project come to fruition and how did you raise the funds to produce it ?
¶ From Ballet to Documentary Production
How did this project ?
come to fruition and how did you raise the funds to produce it ? So I had been working then in documentary for a good 20 years . I was a producer and I found a production manager and a line producer so what that job is .
And I also went into those areas because I was having kids and I didn't want to be going out on the road Right , and it was easier for me to balance family life . But I also realized that my skills were in . So what is what is a producer in documentary ? It's the organization , it's managerial .
I realized that I was love organization and , like um , I learned how to write um budgets . I didn't know I was good in math , but I liked math in school but I didn't know that . Oh , actually I want somebody taught me that I actually was good at , uh , the detail . And so what a producer does is they manage everything .
They're like the manager , they're the project manager , they're like putting all of the details together . And because I have the ability to work under pressure , like having from my dance career you have to go out on stage , you have to be there . Go out on stage , you have to be there . I was .
I start excelling even more when there's a lot of pressure , because then I'm like , okay , you know , and I can put all the pieces together when everybody's you know , I can herd the cats .
So I was working as a producer , I was doing production management and I knew how to write a budget and usually none of the films were my own ideas , so I'd never directed a film . No one asked me if I did do any work with ideas , with filmmaking . Usually my ideas were never accepted .
They were not mainstream enough and not what TV networks were looking accepted . They were not mainstream enough and not what TV networks were looking for . So I stuck to the producing . But then I , my kids were older and they were entering college and I felt like I want more creativity and I thought , okay , I really want to transition .
Do I want to keep doing what I'm doing for the next whatever X years , or do I want to take a chance ? And this story of Call Me Dancer came to me through the teacher . It's a story about a teacher and a student and their journey together . And the teacher came to me and said Leslie , he's in the dance world and he's a dance teacher .
And he said you know , why don't you tell this story ? And so , um , because you're from the dance world and you understand this world , and he didn't even know if I could make a film , and he didn't know that I hadn't ever even directed a film .
He knew that I had worked on the kennedy center honors for eight years , which were the , and we I worked on the biographical films . Uh , that were these five minute films about each honoree or performing artist , but I wasn't the producer of those . I was , you know , doing more the managerial work of it .
But he trusted me and I decided that , okay , do I want to try something new ? And it was a lot of thought , because at my age , to try something completely new like direct a film by myself and raise the money . Well , first of all , everybody in my field here in DC , don't do it , it's too hard . We don't have independent film here in DC .
Most of our film , you know , we all work for broadcasters Discovery Channel , pbs . They give us the money . Here's your money . Make a film that we tell you we want you to make . Or you come up with some ideas and we agree and then I deliver it to them . You know they do all the marketing . They put it on air , that's theirs .
They come up with the money . So I knew how to do the inside , like of a sandwich . You know I knew how to do the meat meat . But I didn't know how to raise the money and I didn't know how to distribute . But I liked the story and I wanted more creativity in my life . So I said okay and I took the plunge
¶ Creating Call Me Dancer
and it was . How did I raise the money . It was very hard . I went to a lot of friends and family to try to raise the money . I had a few grants . I had one wonderful associate , someone , a colleague , who believed in me also in this area .
He became an executive producer , john King , and he trusted me and he liked the story and he also gave me some of my first funds , but a lot of the money . And I also had my husband who just believed in me and said just go for it , just go for it . And it was hard .
It was really hard , so dialing for dollars sounds like .
It's yeah .
And grants .
And grants and I never I wrote so many grants . I never got it . I got a couple small ones , but I did never really got . It was hard , and it's hard in artistic endeavors when it's just you . You have to do all the work and um , so I was . I had to learn a lot of new skills editing skills .
I never had picked up a camera before , but I needed to do that .
So there were a lot of things I had to learn , but I just decided I'm going to try and because it was a topic that I loved , which is dance , that kept me going and that's what helped me persevere through and it's great for the young artists who might be listening to this , thinking that you know they , they don't have to do sales or anything .
You absolutely do , it's just in a different format right .
Yeah , I mean , that's very hard and it's very . I think it's hard for most people to ask for money for yourself . It's one thing if you're asking for something else um , but it's for somebody else or some other product but to ask for yourself is very , very hard did you get better at it ?
Did I get ?
better at it ? Not really . No , it's still uncomfortable for me , it's still hard . And the thing is is that I know very excellent , prominent filmmakers here across the world have won Academy Awards and every time they start a new project it's like starting at the beginning again to find that money , and it is very hard .
You have a little more stature because you have something behind you , but for me I never had made a film , I was unknown , I was not a director , I never directed a film , so why should they trust me ?
Yeah , so that was a really hard sell .
It was really hard . It was really hard , but um but you succeeded .
Yeah , it's up , yeah .
I did , yeah , you made it happen , and you've received lots of recognition for for call me dancer . Um so , by you know , by by all accounts , it was a success . And but how do you personally define success at this point in your career ?
For me , success is the impact and how it reaches the audience and how the response . So , for instance , when you're , it's the same as when you're dancing . When you're dancing or you're in , you're an actor or you're , it's the same as when you're dancing .
When you're dancing and you're an actor or you're a performer on a stage , it's just like it's all black out there . There's 2,000 people , but you have no connection . You leave , you go back to your . You know , you go out the stage door . You never meet anyone . Well , did you make an impact Like , why are you doing this ? Why are you killing yourself ?
And you don't see anybody . You can maybe see the front row of people , but you hope that as a performer , even if you're in the group , you know one of many people that you've made an impact in with a single audience member that they think of something they're , they're touched by something the arts are .
Sometimes you just can't explain them , but they , they're another form of communication that that's universal , that reaches all of us . They have no boundaries , doesn't matter where , what country you come from , and you just hope that you have make some kind of impact . So with Call Me Dancer , I am right now .
It will be aired on PBS later in the year , and I've been making , working to to create partnerships . What I found is I had to first figure out who was my audience , and with this film and the two audience groups that I focused on are seniors , because it's about a teacher , an older guy , who goes to India .
He's American and his sort of his career is washed up and he's a very bitter guy and his life is transformed by the relationships he has with his students and there's a huge transformation within the film .
So there's seniors and there's youth , because it's about a young kid who , against all of his family culture , wants to do something that nobody else does and it's not accepted . He wants to go into the arts and they're like are you kidding ? We're a poor family , you have to support us , you need a job .
These parents put all their money into good education for their son so he'd get out of the taxi driver business , which is what his father was , but he was like no , I want to do what his father was and but he was like no , I want to do , I want to be a dancer , a professional dancer .
So for kids , for youth , it's about identity , it's about perseverance , it's about the struggles like in the film . You see , it's difficult , it is not just like a straight path , and that's what life is .
It is not a straight path for almost anyone and there are bumps in the road all along the way , until your last dying day , until the last day when you take your last breath . There are bumps in the road . So it's how do you persevere through it ? So I have my two audience groups . Now I sort of forgot the question . But what is my success ?
Success is the what is my what's success ? Yeah , success is the impact .
And so , for instance , the very first screening we had in santa barbara , at the first festival , santa barbara film festival , a young man comes up to my , my protagonist , who was there with me because we were doing q and a's , and he said to this to me she said you know , I always wanted he must have been like 24 , 25 said said I always really wanted to
be a filmmaker or to be involved in film . But everyone told me don't do it , it is not , it's too hard , there's no money in it . You know , obviously he's from the LA region don't do it .
So he said I took a different path , a career path , but I see this film and I see that , against all these obstacles , you followed your heart , you followed your passion . I want to now go back to what I really wanted to do and try to become a filmmaker .
And when , after it was all over , I said Manish , we can't wish for anything more , that means impact . You have touched this guy's life by you , life , by him seeing this film and your story .
And so when I had screenings here where seniors open up to me and say start connecting things about their lives and they reveal them , personal things to me , and I'm like OK , I mean , I can't wish for anything more than that .
Yeah .
That's impact for me .
Yeah , the engagement , how much , say , did you have in the creative direction of the film ?
Um , so , as the director and um , I had , I have the final say . I have the final say . But people do things differently . Like I do things by consensus , like I always want to hear what everybody thinks and then I make my own decision .
And because I always feel like I don't really know all the answers , so I want to see , I want to ask other , well , what do you think ? What do you think ? What do you think ?
Now , a lot of people get really pissed off at me because most , a lot of people are like they know what they want and they , they are very clear as a director , this is my vision . And then I go and ask them and I'm like , okay , thank you , that was really . You know , it opens my mind .
And then , but maybe I don't follow what they say , and then they get upset Well , why did you waste my time ? Ask me if you're not going to follow what I say , because I like to hear , I like to hear everything . At the end I'll make my own decision , but I like to .
I just feel like , you know , we see things just through our own lens and our own glasses and what am I missing ? So what didn't I hear ? What story . What sensitivity did I miss ? You know , here I am telling a story about India . Well , I'm not Indian , I'm not from a poor family like this kid is . So what am I missing ?
And I like even the final finishing of the film we well here about , like you know you know , difficulties in directing like a story is that my team , we got stuck in the editing and we spent two months sort of spinning our wheels about one part of the story and I felt like it should go in one way . But they were like three against one .
No , this is not going to work , leslie . And they kept giving me all the reasons why it didn't work and I kept giving them like , well , let's try this . But they never tried it full heartedly and I was too insecure . And then finally I was like , okay , we're gonna do it my way . And then it worked . So I finally pushed my way through , but it was hard .
But having those voices in the room does sharpen you .
Absolutely , absolutely , absolutely . I don't know , I don't think again't think again , like I mean , that's why you have an editor who reads your work . You know , for a book or um , it might not be in every art form , but uh , filmmaking is collaborative yeah , yeah .
So both ballet and documentary filmmaking are intensely competitive fields . How have you approached competition , either with others or with yourself , throughout your career ?
¶ Defining Success Through Impact
like to say that thank god I did not grow up now with social media , because when I grew up we didn't . I couldn't see everything that was available to be seen . There was no video . I used to go to the library . I lived in new york city . I would go to the library to see dance films . That was the only way I could see dance films .
I am not a competitive person and and I feel that if I had known , like if I go on the you know social media now and I see these incredible dancers , well , you're only seeing a tiny piece of them , of people . You're not seeing a whole person . You're not seeing .
You know , just because you are talented in a art form or in any field doesn't mean you're going to be successful at it , because there's the whole person that makes up a . You know a career or a profession and , um , I would have probably not . I wouldn't have had the ability to compete in that way if I had seen social media , so I just had .
The thing I tell people is you have to have like a horse on a race , you have to have the blinders and just not look . You have to look inside and keep going and you do have to connect with outside .
But if you start seeing , you know I was in an incredible school and there were students who were much more talented than I was , but I just kept like , ok , but I really want to do this , I really want to do this . And it's it's hard because it is so competitive . The same with making this film .
Everybody told me don't do it , and then I was like I don't know , I really want to try , yeah .
Yeah , I don't know , I really want to try .
Yeah , yeah , I don't know . It was probably a mistake . I mean , it came out really well , but I had no idea what I was getting myself into .
I didn't know how many sleepless nights I'd have making this film it took me five years to just to film it and how many sleepless nights of like , when is this going to end , and how much money is this going to take ? And and then , how is it going to turn out ? Did I waste eight years and it doesn't turn out well ?
It's hard . The thing is with talent . It doesn't equal success . That's just one . That's just one component . And then , regarding social media , who puts anything out there that doesn't show you in the best light ?
Exactly .
You know it's .
Yeah , it's hard , it's very hard , it's very , I feel , for young people today .
Right .
Because there's so much looking out and with a lot of fields , with everything and with development , and you have to look in , you have to look at yourself lot of interns in the different you know film , you know production companies I've been at .
I'm always saying it's not a straight line , it's like stepping stones and you might go to the right , you might go to the left and there's no wrong step . Everything teaches you something . And if you went to the right and took that job and you're like , oh my God , I don't like this job , then don't stay in it , just leave .
No , it's not going to hinder you that you were in a job for six months or a year and you didn't like it . But learn from it . Why didn't you like it ? And I also tell a lot of young people learn from it , why didn't you like it ? And I also tell a lot of young people you're not really going to know until you're like 30 , what you're good at .
You need to just like , acquire everything , pull it all together . Like I didn't know what I was good at , even as a dancer . Okay , I got the roles , but I didn't know what I didn't know myself . And I always say just give it time and I always say just give it time . Unfortunately , there's this pressure of time which we're all under .
Okay , high school , now you've got to go to college , now you have to know what you want to do . Well , now you still have . That was the learning , now is the journey . But it's scary because they think , okay , I'm supposed to get out of college and know what I'm going to do and I have to be clear about it and I'm like no , you're not .
I know it's scary , I know it feels like I'm a loser because I'm not clear what I want to do . But not until your 30s you're going to be like you know what I don't like working ? I realized I don't like working in big companies because I felt like I was so small and I'd rather be a bigger fish in a smaller pond and I liked working with teams .
Yeah .
And I realized what I didn't like and what I did like .
Yeah , Leslie . What were some of the challenges you hadn't anticipated when getting into filmmaking .
¶ Navigating Competition in the Arts
Well , the challenges with making my own film were financial . Raising that money Was your question . What are the challenges getting into film making that transition ?
Were there challenges that you hadn't anticipated , because I would assume that you knew that raising money might be difficult .
Was there anything ? Things you didn't know ? You didn't know .
Yeah , I didn't choose my team all correctly in the beginning , so there was a bit of um , there were a few problems and I sadly lost a few friends along the way because of it , because of conflict of interest and um , and that was really sad for me . Um and um . I just hadn't anticipated how difficult it would be and how , like , covid made a big impact .
You know , suddenly there's COVID . We thought the film was going to end and we had our tickets to go to India to film the ending and then COVID hits . Oh man , march 20th 2020 is when we were going to go finish the end of the film . So then it's like when is the film going to end and what do you do now ?
And so they were , unfortunately , with a documentary . The biggest question is when are you going to stop filming ? When is your story done ? And it's yeah , that was hard .
That's interesting yeah , that was . That was hard . Yeah , it's interesting . So , when you think about the legacy that you're building , whether in film , or you've mentioned mentoring quite a bit throughout this , throughout this interview what do you hope ? What do you hope that all adds up to ?
Um . What does it all add up to ?
What do you hope , yeah , hope , yeah , I mean . So it's kind of the success question too . I mean , you impact , right , you're impacting your audience .
I think this is maybe a similar thing , but maybe more on a personal level than than than through your artistic work I think that , um , that what surprised me most at my age is that my kids were already in college , I already had my dance career , I was working in film , but then I made this film and then suddenly it was a big success .
And I hadn't anticipated that and I was just like , oh my god , look at what happened and it's getting so much recognition . And then , two , I applied , on a whim , for a Fulbright scholarship and I got it . And I couldn't believe it . I was like I thought , oh , you had to be a college graduate to get a Fulbright . And no , I was wrong .
They also , uh , choose artists . And I , what I really realized is , just keep going , there is no point of success . It just like , oh my gosh , you can still just keep building and building , and building , and to no end . And I , I'm a very curious person and I don't like to be bored .
So there's always something , there's always something to do or to give to others . And so I have a husband who's a professor and you know , he just doesn't stop writing books and he just keeps ideas , keep going .
And I think we're a match made in heaven , because I'm the same , I'm just curious about the world and hopefully we have our health so that we can just keep going until the end .
Keep creating . That's great . Before Andy kicks off the final three questions , I'd just like to see if you could talk about how your team markets . Call Me Dancer .
So I have two agents , one in New York and one in Zurich . The one in Zurich does worldwide and she was responsible for getting our co-production with German and French television , which was really wonderful that she got that , and then other um , so that was important and my agent here in New York I mean , there were a lot of doors shut in our face .
No , no , no , no , like well , this is not a Netflix film
¶ Building Legacy and Distribution Strategies
, it doesn't hit the analytics . Um , but , um , you know it doesn't have sex , it doesn't have violence , have violence . You know there's no incest , there's no this , there's no that it doesn't fit the analytics . I'm not a famous person . There's not a famous person in the film . So , no , thanks . So , but my agent did get us this recently .
We were licensed by AARP and they , just last week , had shown the film in a launch event . It was a live launch and we had over 4,000 people watching and live chatting during it and just all their comments and me writing back . It was wonderful , all their comments and me writing back .
I was , it was wonderful , and that was my agent who did that as well , as she has been working on the PBS deal . So then there's that's one way , and then there's the other way which I'm doing , which is the educational and impact . I'm working with schools . I'm working with DC public schools , I'm working with Pittsburgh public schools .
There's going to be a curriculum created because I got a grant recently and I am working with schools in this area of DC to um for , uh , showing the film and then having artists led activities so that it's experiential , not that you see the film and then having artists led activities so that it's experiential , not that you see the film and just talk about it .
They see the film and then they do an artist-led activity about identity , about perseverance , um and um . What does that mean to them ? Whether it's through writing a hip-hop song , because this dancer starts as a hip dancer , hip hop song , the lyrics , doing a dance , doing something with music , fine art .
So I'm working on that side as well , as I'm also working with seniors . So with AARP , to create screening the film along with dance in a chair or any kind of active . I did in an intergenerational dance , a hip hop dance with seniors and youth and then people saw the film .
So I'm trying to create programming or wellness programming for seniors and that's the sort of those are the distribution . A film isn't just distributed , like it can be , but it's not like you just go to Netflix and here take the film and that's the end of it .
You can do that , but usually for independent film you need to do more and it's like why are you making this film ? Just you know , and so I want that impact to be there . So I'm doing a lot of work , making partnerships with other organizations .
It's great , a lot of things .
Well , Leslie , we've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions , and the first question is what advice would you give to others wanting an arts entrepreneur ?
Perseverance and heartache they go together and there's always heartache in all endeavors like this . But embrace it , because that's what makes you a whole person , and persevere , because it's not easy , but just follow your heart , follow your passion and keep going , and I guess that's my advice .
Great . What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience ?
Support arts . So okay . So the question is what do you do to create arts and help create arts and support the arts , support arts within your community ? I dedicated the film at the very end to the sponsor .
There within the film there is a woman , an indian woman , who sponsors this young man and his journey because he didn't have the funds , and I dedicated the film to her because the patrons of the arts are never really are not recognized , and if we didn't have the patrons , we wouldn't have the art form , like if we didn't have the Medici family , we wouldn't
have the Renaissance . And you need the patrons . So , and I say to people , you are a patron of the arts . Just by going to the movie , buying your ticket for $10 or $15 and being there , you're a patron of the media arts . So participate in arts and don't think that you can't
¶ Final Advice for Arts Entrepreneurs
do something . You can just go and buy a ticket to that theater , that community theater , support them and you are being a patron . We can't exist without the patrons . So that's one way . Or you can actively be a participant by supporting your community , by being involved as well .
Lastly , what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've been given ?
And I just can't give up because I'm so obstinate and stubborn , but sometimes I'm wasting my time and my resources , and my own resources . It costs money , and even in jobs regular jobs that you have Well , maybe going in that one direction so much is just not worth doing it , um , and sometimes you avoid doing things because of procrastination .
So time is money . Don't , um , do what directly impacts your momentum and your mission and try to stay on track Perfect .
Well , thanks for coming on the podcast , Leslie . It was great hearing how your worldview shapes your creativity . It's great having you , thank you .
Thank you very much , hearing me ramble on .
This is great . Thanks , Leslie .
Thanks for listening . If you like this podcast , please subscribe . Visit artsentrepreneurshippodcastcom to learn more about our guest and how you can help support artists , the arts and this podcast . Thank you .