¶ Meet the Ragamala Dance Company
Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast . Making art work . We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry , passion and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts . The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts .
The appearance of a guest on the podcast , the venture they represent or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts . The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice . Here are your hosts Andy Heiss and Nick Petrella .
Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners . My name is .
Andy Heiss and I'm Nick Petrella On the podcast . Today we have the founder and executives from the Ragamala Dance Company joining us . Rani Ramaswamy is the founding artistic director of the company . She began in 1992 . Her daughters , aparna and Ashwini , both have key positions in the company .
Aparna is the executive artistic director , choreographer and principal dancer in the company , and Ashwini is a choreographic associate , dancer and communications director . The company tours exclusively worldwide and has appeared at venues including the Kennedy Center , lincoln Center and Jacob's Pillow .
Individually , our guests have won numerous awards , including Guggenheim Fellowships , us Artist Fellowships and over a dozen McKnight Fellowships . Since this just scratches the surface of their accolades , I strongly encourage you to visit their website in the show notes to see their impressive list of accomplishments .
Before we continue , we'd like to give a shout out to Jane Chu for introducing us to Ronnie and her daughters . Thank you all for coming on the podcast .
Thank you ,
¶ Balancing Revenue Streams and Grant Writing
thank you Thank you . We're happy to be here .
So earlier you mentioned grants and I'm imagining that you have revenue streams from commissions , ticket sales , but I assume grants comprise a bulk of your income . If that's right , do you have any tips for grant writing ?
You're laughing at Shweta .
What's that ?
Nothing , I said nothing , nothing . Go ahead , oprah .
Well , no , I just wanted to say that , in terms of revenue streams , we do rely on grants and obviously there are many different types . Right , there's private foundations , there are government grants and obviously there are many different types .
Right , there's private foundations , there's um , there are government grants , there's individual contributions in terms of revenue , um and contributed income , but we have a very healthy earned income stream as well in terms of we have a , we tour , we teach , we just we always make sure that that balance is very healthy .
That's important to us because obviously , when you run a nonprofit or any business , you can't rely just on one revenue stream . So we're always watching that number . So I just wanted to say that , and then someone else can answer about grants . I was just joking that there's .
no , I don't think there is a real secret to it , but go ahead , amma .
No , I was just saying that when I started , the bank balance was $5,000 . That , but go ahead . Amma , our dancers was , she was working there and she would have that open for us and I would cook for a hundred people and all my dancers helped and people came . They donated money .
So you have to , once you do this , this kind of work , like you are always thinking of how do you make , how can you make your your um , your work happen ? You know how do you create funding . So it's not only creating original ideas , you also have to create original ways of making money . That's right .
Yeah , well , I love it and that's kind of what I was going after . So you have a variety of revenue streams and just the passion , exactly the creativity , to keep it going . So that's what . That's what we want younger people here to hear .
But I would say about grants that I mean , obviously , as we all know , there are small grants and larger grants , and we try for everything because you have to . You know it takes a patchwork to make a quilt , but I would say that it's what's very , very important .
And sometimes , I think a lot of times you can get stuck in what comes first the grant or the project , because how do you create a project without funding and how do you apply for a grant without a project , and how far along the pipeline do you go on each one ? And so that's different for every organization or every artist .
But I would say what's really worked for us . I don't know if it's worked in terms of actually getting a lot of funding , but what feels authentic to us is to have conversations with anyone who will talk to you at granting organizations , Really talk about if you're a good fit . Is your project a good fit ?
How can you get people to read what you've written before you , and a lot of people offer this and people don't know it . A lot of people are too nervous about doing that , and I think vulnerability is key , because we all have something to learn . We have a lot to learn , and so people are .
People want to help , they want to fund you , they exist so they can fund you , but I think that there are there's a lot of opacity , and I think that even more now , and so I think if you can break that down a little bit and start making appointments and start talking to people and also just get to know people as people , yes , I think it's very helpful ,
yeah , and I think the project , if you're , if you're really believe in the project and you're writing , and you're writing everything you can , if you , even if you don't get anything , that writing , the process of writing it really helps the project .
And there's something mentally helpful about just thinking about the outcome and what it can do to people's lives , in your life , instead of what you might get out of it .
Also , I think you get rejections many but never take a rejection as oh , this is done , I'm not going to do it . I get motivated more when I don't get it , because then I want to go for it again , yeah , so all of this together helps .
Yeah , I would imagine that , Ronnie . I can see that Real quick . Before Andy gets to his next question who writes grants Any of you ? Do you employ someone or do you work with a grant writer outside ?
Long time ago oh sorry , long time ago I wrote the grants and then we had our dancer . You know , all our dancers also are administrators in our company . So we had one of our dancers became the grant writer , but the ideas came from Aparna and myself , so we had it in our head . So it's always difficult when someone else is crafting it .
So we were constantly we constantly work on making sure that all our ideas are in the paper . Then , after Aparna came on board , then Aparna will talk about it .
Oh well , I was just going to say that all of us have written so many grants . We write personal grants also , but also we've written so many grants for the company , but we continue to write constantly , and so now we do have a grant writer we work with who is wonderful . We work with who is wonderful .
But , again , for that authenticity , we are constantly writing and we're shaping and we're talking about our audiences , and I mean ashwini writes a great deal . We write together . A lot of times we'll words , we'll wordsmith too much , we'll craft together and because , again , that it is fun together , we to we love to do it together , we love to work together .
But it feels , again , it's an extension of the project and your artistry and your vision . It doesn't stand separately and so it's both for good and for ill . You can sometimes get too wrapped up in it , but it has to feel authentic .
And I think I'm so fortunate because I have two daughters who have gone to college here , which I didn't . My language is much different , even when I write . There are lots of Indian stuff in it , so I have the humility to know that I can only do this much , and I let them fix it for me when I write .
Yeah , that's good to have that ability .
Yeah , so the performing arts space is highly competitive . How have you positioned Ragamala throughout the years to compete with ? You know all the other opportunities for people , for audiences , to engage in in cultural experiences .
¶ Excellence and Business Strategies
Well , I would say that the first , the number one and the most important thing is that we hold ourselves to the highest standard of excellence and that is everything for us .
I mean that really , that that hard work and the discipline and the unwavering expectation , level of expectation , working with the best musicians , working with the best lighting designers been really the product . I hate to even call it a product , but what we , what we offer , has to be the best we can do .
It may not be the best ever , but the best we can do . There is no compromise , by any stretch at least . So we do our best . And then again , it's that communication of what . What are , what will , what do we hope people will feel , how do we hope that this connects us with the larger world and with individuals ?
How will they connect with it and so really being able to speak about that and speak about how traditional societies , how ancient societies , are contemporary and relevant and thriving and how do we connect our worlds . And how do the arts connect our worlds ? How does this particular art form connect our worlds ? And we feel that this approach does speak to people .
We don't create work for a venue or for their mission . We create work that feels genuine to us , that fulfills our natural curiosities and artistic impulses , and we hope people will want to experience it .
And because you're talking about entrepreneurship , it's a business and I have been told many times by many , many the staffs of many organizations that we're very responsive and that we do things according to the deadline , which is important .
And because , yes , as Ronnie mentioned , because all the dancers hold administrative roles , we really believe in what we're doing and we have a high level of awareness about all the different aspects .
And then , just in terms of , again , this idea of marketing , we make sure that the images , the videos really capture the ethos of the product , again calling it a product . One small thing we've realized over the years is for pictures , especially the pictures from the live performance , really hit better than like a photo shoot .
So we really tend to go towards live performance photos and just getting that , you know , the dynamism of the performance onto the image .
I think so . What is important here is you can be a great artist . You have to have a business plan . It can't be just one or the other .
Right and you know to your point , ashwini , being fast , quick and responding whether it's phone or email , the word probably gets out with these people you're engaging with , and if it makes it easier for them empathetically that's what you're doing Probably helps you get more gigs in a way .
And certainly the second gig , right ? They remember ? Oh , I remember working with Ragamal they were so easy to work with . They were on time , they were . You know . I imagine that that's part of reputationally too , would be important .
The first point of contact after we get on the ground is our tech team . Every single person has to be the best at what they do , and every single person has to be friendly and personable and easy to work with . And also , we all take care of each other , and so all of that has to exist for something to be successful .
And it's true , people talk to each other , but you also . As artists , we pride ourselves on being very accessible . We want to talk to the presenter , we want to talk to audiences . We want to . We want people to hear in our own words what our work is about .
And because and you are if , if you are a high level performing artist , it doesn't mean you can just spend your time doing only your rehearsing and doing your dance . Aparna has to be in charge of everything that is happening around her , so it's not so all of us .
Ashwini has her work cut out for her , so we try to find every day a chunk of time when we can practice , so that one doesn't take over the other .
So you just mentioned that you have an agent and I see the company has exclusive representation . What went into your decision to partner with your current management company ?
¶ The Creative Process Behind Children of Dharma
So we work with Laura Colby . She is the president of LC Management . She's amazing , she is the president of LC Management . We have done , we have invented everything . We . None of us went to any sort of school or training or have has worked anywhere else to understand how to build an arts nonprofit and so .
But having an agent was a huge I mean , getting an agent was difficult , it was a coup . And then we are . We are constantly watching around us what , what is the relationship like between artists and agents ? What are how , what are we seeing ? What looks successful , what looks more challenging ?
And so for a couple of years we were , I mean , we definitely knew about Laura Colby and we saw how it seemed that she was representing her artists and the relationship she seemed to have and we were very impressed and , um , and we connected and it was a a wonderful um , a wonderful meeting , and we worked together for some time .
And I think the most important thing about Laura is she cares so deeply about the work . She understands that this is our life's work and we are on this journey together and she is right there with us . And so it's not just about getting performances , but it's also about what are our goals , our wider goals about sharing this art form .
Where do we want to be , what do we want to say and to whom do we want to say it ? And we do that together .
Now , Ashwini , do you work closely with Laura as a communications director ?
I actually work more directly with the venues .
Okay .
So , once she has negotiated things , then I'll get the venue contact or they'll contact me and I'll send . The agency does have a portfolio of images and videos that they ask for just to have on hand , but it's more of a yeah , directly with the venues . On communication Makes sense .
So earlier um Aparna , you were telling us about , um Children of Dharma , sort of the inspiration behind behind that latest show . Uh , but I'm wondering like so , from the idea for that , or from the seed of the idea for that , imagining what that show could be , would you three mind walking us through what is that creative process like ?
So the Mahabharata was never in our imagination . We never wanted to make a piece from Mahabharata . It's huge . There are thousands and thousands of stories in it . Usually there are a few scenes that people do . We were not very interested in that . But we came across a book written by a New York author . His name is Kirtik Shashidharan .
He wrote a novel based on the Mahabharata and he was planning to write three , three volumes . He finished one and he is a friend of a friend . We got introduced to him . We read a lot of what he had written . We read this book first volume . The opening just blew us away and we said well , this is what we want to do .
It's called Dharma Forest .
Yeah , it was called Dharma Forest and we could visualize the first scene by just reading it . And then things we started with other characters that he hadn't yet developed . But his book gave us the freedom to break just the original way of the woman that Aparna explained , presented , and we started to research and find scholars .
Actually a Dutch scholar , saskia Karsenboom , was a main she gave us the most information about she's an Indologist about the Tamil character and how the Tamil part of India , the southeastern part of India or southwestern part of India , saw Draupadi as they saw her as Mother Earth . They saw her husbands as elements . So we went with it .
And that's also where Bharatanatyam is from and where we are from .
That region yeah .
And so and here and I play Gandhari , the mother of 100 bad cousins who she's completely she has blindfolded herself because she was unhappy in her marriage . She didn't . It shows irresponsibility and what happens at the end . So these were the material that we had to create this work from . That's from my part .
Just really quickly , I would say also , it's kind of like one person will have the seed of an idea and start talking and then it just becomes this interwoven tree of you know of perspectives . So it's kind of interesting .
If you're talking about a creative process , it's kind of someone will say , oh , I was thinking about this , and before you know it it's two years down the line and it's a growing project . I don't know . Would you like to add no ?
I don't have anything . Well , I can add that I mean , what's really interesting is that we don't we definitely don't divide and conquer . We constantly in conversation , so everything does . It's layered in terms of having the three of us participate .
Ronnie is incredible at source material and she's amazing at research and and gathering and analyzing , and I think I play the role as editor . I'm always questioning and saying how does this connect to this ? Can we find a symbol or a deeper metaphor here ? It's we all have our strengths and we all play various roles . Um , and so that's how and and the work .
It has seven dancers , a recorded score , an original score . It has massive projections , beautiful lighting . It's um . It's .
It's an incredibly intimate work on a very grand scale I think the we forgot to mention is the music , All the music . Aparna had single-handedly worked with the musicians who are from India .
So , and that's what go ahead no go ahead .
I just want to say , I just want to make sure it's clear that so Children of Dharma is the first show that all three of us have worked on together . So , Ronnie and Aparna have built so much of the of the canon of work like years and years and years and years . I'm sort of learning and I have created some of my own work in the past , kind of like .
I call it like the addition process to get now to be in on the trio . But I want to make that clear .
Sorry , you were going . You were saying something
¶ Music, Dance, and Media Relations
, Aparna , you had something you were going to say .
Oh no , I just was going to say I think that was your next question , so I didn't want to jump in .
Exactly so you know , when creating your choreography . I was wondering if you work with the musicians simultaneously or if you start with the music first . How does that work ?
Or if you start with the music first , how does that work ? So in Barre de Nardium it's a very incredibly enmeshed process music and dance and so obviously you need music to create dance .
But the choreographer is so much a part of the music composition process , is so much a part of the music composition process , and so in our process we find the lyrics , as Roddy mentioned earlier , and then work with the composer to determine musical modes , the rhythms , the way that it's going to be sung , how many times it's repeated , how much you want to
delve into the concept , the idea , the repetitions of words , lines , etc . And we have an incredible composer who lives in India . And then we also have an ensemble of musicians who are the best Bharatanatyam musicians that are really playing right now , and so we're very fortunate to work with them . So we work with each of them .
Again , a Bardinati creator creates all of the rhythmic phrases , all of the complexity , so we really have to have that idea for what we want . And then we work with the percussionists , we work with the melodic instruments violin and flute to embellish , and so when we create the score , you really envision the entire thing .
It's the choreographer's job to envision that score and then communicate with the musicians , and then really it's a collaborative process to create it , and so it's it's my , my role to work with the musicians to record all of that . So I create very and we do it remotely Right , and so it's . It's a lot of late night meetings , overnight meetings .
Right right .
We also work with the live . We bring the musicians here and we do performances with live music , the terminology to speak and the language skills to speak with the Indian musicians who , some of them , don't speak English fluently .
And Aparna is able to do that even though she went she was , she has lived here all her life and but she's able to go back and forth to be able to do that . I am so proud of that .
You know , to tie two things together one that Ashwini mentioned and one that Aparna just mentioned about the live music and recording it , and then , I think , communications marketing . You're using excerpts from live performances .
I strongly encourage everyone listening to this podcast to go to your website and watch those videos because , as a percussionist , the rhythms , the sounds , just the beauty of the costumes I strongly encourage everyone listening to this podcast to go to your website and watch those videos Because , as a percussionist , the rhythms , the sounds , just the beauty of the
costumes blew me away . And the thing that really kind of impacted me the vocalizations on your 25th anniversary video Was that one of the musicians oh yes , that's one of our musicians .
Yes .
That was just amazing .
just percussive , so that's it yeah , that's a deep um tradition in our , in our work . So the , the vocal percussion , that is also played , and so there's a spoken tradition and a rhythm and an instrumental tradition and it is the basis of that's how we train .
We , from the very beginning , dancers for years only learn to spoken vocalization , and so you can understand how that cadence of the vocalization mirrors or does the dance come first or does the vocalization come first . They must go absolutely together and it trains your body to respond to music and respond to that , that consistent heartbeat that we have .
And so that gets more and more complicated and complex as we go down the dance road .
So , as an NPR junkie , I was excited to see your segment on Weekend Edition . What role do media appearances and things like that play in the promotion or advertising or telling the story of your company ?
We're , as we've talked about a lot , we're very family oriented and that was a really fun segment to be interviewed for . I think it's a really big . It's kind of like an integral part of this idea of communicating our story and making sure that there's education and knowledge about all the different aspects we're doing .
When there are interviews especially , I think , radio interviews .
But print and radio interviews reviews , previews , articles like that they just provide a layer of understanding that , because we're not the ones directly having to tell , it's somebody else even this podcast , right , you came up with the questions because we're so involved in what we're doing we don't necessarily know what other people don't know or want to know .
So I think in terms of positioning and educating and communicating in this country , it's very important and I sort of oversee this as well , but usually , again , it's the venue's responsibility to facilitate that in their region and their media market . But yes , we've been fortunate to have quite a lot of press coverage over the years .
Great Rani Aparna Ashwini . We've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions , and this first question is what advice would you give to others wanting to become an arts entrepreneur ? An arts entrepreneur ?
I would say have high , very strong technique , strong , excellent skills , love your work and don't get disappointed .
You have to keep going . I would say remember every day that the art form that you're practicing is an ocean and there's no ego in it . We're all trying to improve . Do what you do with truth ,
¶ Wisdom and Final Advice
and that will carry you through .
Because I think Ronnie and Nuparna really talked about the artistic side of things , which is obviously the most important way that you want to be seen and put your foot forward , so that you have again those two aspects balancing nicely Okay .
What can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience ?
I wish , if I may say I wish that there was more funding for free or very low-cost performances . This is becoming a bigger barrier ticket sales , ticket costs and I know that sometimes I think the people who really can't afford to see these performances are the ones who would most enjoy and benefit from them .
So that would , in a perfect world , that would be something that I would wish for .
I would say free performances to school children , because that's a fresh mind and it would really help to think of it as a maybe a career in their future .
I think you should listen to my sister and my mother . They know exactly what they're talking about .
Well said , well said . Lastly , what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've been given ? I bet you I could guess what somebody else is going to say , oh , that'd be a fun way to do this , yeah .
I think I don't know which one is going to say it , but our teacher always quotes to thine own self , be true , and she has always done that and it has never guided any of us , I think incorrectly . Is that what yesterday ? I ?
told my , I told my mother , I said Alarmine Valide tells us to do everything with truth , If that's your art , if that's your business , if it's whatever you do , but everything with your own truth .
So yes , Ashwini , you are correct and I agree to both of them Okay .
That's great . It's a great way to end the interview . Rani , aparna and Ashwini it's been wonderful having you on the podcast and just hearing how closely you work together . It felt like we were interviewing one person . Your humility and gratitude just beams through you .
Thank you .
Thank you . It was really really wonderful to talk to you and also to hear my mom and sister .
We always like to see each other .
Well , thanks so much for your time .
Thank you , thank you .
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