Humility

You're listening to the Arts and Ideas podcast with me, Matthew Sweet. I was told a story by a venerable old bookseller who once found Frank Pakkenham, Lord Longford, in his shop, in a bad temper. Footnote for you, Lord Longford, Anglo Irish peer, campaigner for sometimes unpopular causes, never off the telly in the sixties and seventies. Anyway, the man behind the counter asked him why he was so agitated.

Well, he said, I have a new book out, and you don't seem to stock it, and really it's not good enough. I'm so sorry, Lord Longford, said the bookseller. What's the title? On humility, he replied. Well, we're on it tonight, humility, and hoping to discover whether it's a vice or or a virtue, whether it's something that you do, or whether it's a state of being that you achieve. Most of us know how to detect false humility, the humble brag, urea heapishness,

But what about genuine humility? Have you seen a convincing example of that this week? Have you heard somebody admit an error and apologize for it without qualification? I can think of one, but examples of the opposite seem much more plentiful. And that's the question that I'm going to humbly suggest that we use as a way of getting our guests in tonight, in alphabetical order too, so none of them get above themselves.

Lamorna Ash, Christian writer and journalist, did you witness any humility this week? I did. It's it might be a bit of a stretch, but I'm gonna give it a go. So if I'm taking humility as a kind of civic virtue where it's about this of self knowledge that then should radio radiate outwards to allow you to

recognize the equality you have with everyone around you. I saw it in the smoking area of the Black Cap last night, which is a um a s queer venue in Camden that's just reopened. And I think smoking areas are fascinating in general, but this space where Do they smoke yeah? They still exist, just about. They're clinging on. Uh but in this

often in those spaces you can see when people think they're above one another and don't allow people in and this space maybe it was because it was this beautiful space that's reopened. Each time someone new turned up in the smoking area, the circle widened and it just really felt like this sense of like equality and like humility recognizing each other.

Okay, well the idea with the connection between equality and humility I think we might return to um a little bit later. Robert Buckland um is not with us in person. He's zooming in from Wiltshire, former MP. Former Lord Chancellor and Solicitor General, now humble KC and Church Commissioner. Have you witnessed any expressions of humility in court this week or in a cathedral, perhaps?

Well, I'm I I'm a big sports fan and although rugby's my first game, I do like football and I'm I have to confess I'm an Arsenal fan and Bakayo Saka, uh captain of Arsenal, who's had quite a lot of injuries. ymwneud â phobl sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n his language was all about the thanks that he gave to the medical team who supported him to his teammates was about the team not him i thought that was a really good example of

ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl. Unconscious humility. That again I feel is something that that we might uh we might visit uh as we talk. Aaron Reeves is here, sociologist and author with Sam Friedman.

Of Born to Rule, the making and remaking of the British elite. What about you? Have you seen anybody being humble or or ever so humble? Uh a little bit of uh maybe humiliation, humbling. Uh just before I left my mum who had just come to visit for the weekend said to me, uh you really going to the BBC dressed like that? Yeah. And uh whether it's a very good idea.

I have to say to listeners that that Erin is not badly dressed tonight. He's wearing a rather fetching green and pink stripe number. Thank you very much But yeah, whether that's genuine humility or not Certainly my family are invested in me being humble Okay. Carrie Sullivan, Shakespearean scholar and Renaissance woman, do academics value the expression of humility? Oh I'm so glad you asked me that because I have a wonderful junior colleague

Who is being asked to take on, to start a new module. We don't know what the texts are going to be, we don't know who's teaching on it, we don't know how many students they're going to be, we don't know how it's going to be taught and what the timetable's going to be.

And he's got a mass of registry documents to get through, to work through, and he's got prima donnas that's us to work with. And he's doing it with such uh modest stillness and humility, such Grace and I think doing grunt work with grace is really humble. So he needs humility to deal with you and your colleagues, are you saying? Yes, basically.

Dan Taylor, political scientist with a special interest in Spinoza, who is our guest dead philosopher, uh tonight. Have you seen anybody humble or being humble? This week. Mafia, I've had to eat humble pie this week. So um I do a lot of community research around the country and I think we all know a lot of place names are deliberately confusing in order to trip up outsiders.

I've been doing work for about three years in the Fens in the east of England and I've been telling people about um the first human beings to come to Europe in a place called Happiesburgh. Happysburg, Suffolk. Now somebody p gently put me aside and said, It's Hayesborough. But they did it nice in an email and I thought, Yep, point taken. Humble pie eaten.

They're tricky those, aren't they? I remember uh I remember an academic giving a paper on a uh a film that uh that not knowing uh Welsh cul culture he thought was called Miffin We. But there we are. Now I'm going to offer so a groan from Robert Buckland.

I'm going to offer something. I was in two minds about whether I should name the person here because I worry I might sound insincere, which I'm really not, but I'm not going to name them because also I thought that seemed itchy too. But this was a well known commentator. apologizing to a well known broadcaster this week on social media, and he said, My ungenerous comments about m have not gone down well with many listeners. Time for me to reiterate my apology

And listen more carefully. Now you can Google that if you want to find out who it is. It's not a secret. But that almost moved me to tears it seemed so rare, Dan. I think we live in a moment where it's it's humility um militates against all the self promotional culture that we get on social media and everywhere else. It's very hard to be humble. But I think also at the same time there's a kind of irony

in be in inviting a group of people uh tonight to talk about humility. I think we all probably should have said maybe we're not the best ones to do this. I think we're always caught in a bind, aren't we? We want to say our peace and contribute our knowledge. On the other hand, mm, are we really the right people? Well it's it is it is hard, isn't it? Um

Humility is something that is, I think, very hard to express, even if it is genuine, if we think it can be genuine. If I ask you to say or do something, humble, Lamorna, it seems a big ask, or perhaps even in bad taste.

Mm. I suppose it it's something that shouldn't be expressed. It should be a kind of pragmatic experience that you're doing something and then someone else can gesture towards you and say, Oh, it's very humble At which point you then no longer feel humble and you're lost again. It's a nightmare. Robert, you talked about unconscious humility when we started. Yeah, yeah. I th I think the act or you know you you're doing something without the expectation or understanding you're being observed.

Yeah. So you're you're getting on quietly with doing uh you know, whether it's uh you know, quiet charitable work or whatever it might be, not in the hope or expectation you want recognition or acknowledgement. You just feel it's the right thing to do and you get you're getting on with it quietly.

Mae'n George Eliot yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw. I think that is true humility. But that idea you you just said that without the expectation of being observed. But does humility happen unless it is observed? Can you be humble on your own, Carrie? Can I? Can one?

Or is it relational? Do you need somebody else there, like another person or God? I sp we're coming up to Lent. Well to to to Good Friday next uh on next on Friday. And Rydyn ni'n cael ei wneud i'n cael ei wneud i'n cael ei wneud i'n cael ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n cael ei wneud i'n cael ei wneud i'n cael ei wneud i'n cael ei wneud i'n cael ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n cael ei wneud i'n cael ei wneud.

So I spend a lot of time hovering on the edge like like like you, uh about this is this humiliation? Is it hum humility? And then I think, well this is a sin of pride, if I am so unwilling to do it, then I need to To humble m guys. The humiliation is is the hum is the humility.

Maybe it's trying to rather than say how can we tell if people are doing it? It's like what is the point of it for? Why why should we um live with in a a way that is humble? And if there's the Christian sense of it, you know, the word humility itself, it's about being close to earth. This this

Uh humility was not a big virtue until the Christian period, at which point this sense of Christ as being the incarnation, being this expression of humility, of making yourself flesh and making yourself close to the earth. And so w I guess the Christian the early Christian idea of it is that humility is there so that you are able to realize through self knowledge your dependency upon God and then receive grace.

So it almost doesn't matter what other people are saying about it. It should be this sense of looking internally and then being able to see what you're like and then from that being given this gift of grace.

You've raised a nice big simple one here. What is the point of it? That's outside of the Christian context. What is the point of it, Aaron? Yeah, I mean I I think that its its value is actually relational. It's something that probably it's difficult to discover in ourselves. We have to sort of

uh understand it through other people. The point of it then I think is to certainly in a Christian context it's relation to God, but then absent that, maybe a a sense of shared humanity, a sense that we are equal before each other, rather than trying to exist within uh social hierarchy. So humility has a function I think of equalizing us and giving us equal respect, due respect across the Dan what is the you know what what is the social function what's the secular function of of humility?

I think it's it it's very difficult. I mean some of these um accounts of humanity being sketched out could just be called self understanding. You know, we we're talking and when Robert talked about the end of Middle March, um George Elliott, you know, the the making good of the world is fruit is partly for unhistoric acts. No, what we're describing here, it could be humility or it could be self understanding or it could be generosity. I think what is its place now? I think

I would say, and this is where I might be a slightly un unpopular figure, and an un humble figure, is that I think humility is often quite misleading. I think some often th those that claim the greatest humility are engaged in a kind of um intellectual martial arts. as a way of deflecting uh questions and skepticism about power and the overreach of power by saying Oh imagine. I'm so humbled to accept this award, I'm so humbled to be invited.

That's the voice of Uriah Heap, isn't it, from Dickens? Yeah. Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd. Have you ever used that expression, Robert, when you know when receiving an honour of some kind? I've studiously avoided it, I can tell you. I feel elated and delighted and really happy to receive an award because I'm going up rather than... Yeah. Come down and I th I think that's quite a good check on on one's st state of mind.

Lamona Well I think Dan's brought a big problem into this that as soon as we're discussing virtues, one problem is that they're culturally mutative, that they change from generation to generation of like whether people think it almost is like what does the society need if at the moment there is this like big pride, pride being one opposite of

of humility. Then then suddenly it becomes useful again. But also each virtue taken by humans gets wrecked and ruined. There's this ideal version of a virtue and then actually as soon as we're using it it gets grubby and all our different needs and wants come into it. I wonder whether we don't need to decide, you know, precisely what it is we're talking about here.

'Cause I think there are a number of competing terms. Carrie you mentioned humiliation earlier on. We talked about humility, we talked about being humbled. This is a sort of a constellation of phenomena, I think. It's not all the same thing, is it? Can we attempt a a kind of taxonomy between us? Can we distinguish between uh humility and being humiliated, for instance, Lamorna?

I I was reading something about the fac well that um within the Bible Job is a character who is both humiliated and experiences humility. But actually that they are not um they're they're not necessary to have together. You can have humility and not be humiliated and you can be humiliated and experience no humility and continue about the way you were before. So I think they're obviously connected root wise, but I don't think that they're necessary to come together.

I think Christianity often puts too much of an emphasis on the need for humiliation for being degraded. I like that. I think one other thing that might be going on here with humiliation versus humility, if if humility has something to do with equality across individuals

Humiliation is about bringing someone down beneath another. It's a recognition that there is a status hierarchy, but actually you want to remake it. You want to reorder that hierarchy. And humiliation is perhaps about the process of trying to do that reordering rather than just

Let's tease out this idea of equality because I think there's something slightly counterintuitive about that. What's the relationship between equality and humility? Lamorna, you started us on that. Can you explain it a bit more?

Yeah, well I think so the problem with humility is it can be used to entrench social order. So again early Christian terms, this sense of if you are um a slave or a servant, you should understand that's your position and you should you should feel humble about that. And so often it was then used by powerful people. mewn gwirionedd yn ymwneud â llawer o'r hyrachau. Mae'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r hyrachau.

And so then this like more radical actually St. Bernard of Clairaux I've probably pronounced that completely wrong um was really good on on taking it as a quality that actually if you s it starts with a self, it's a process humanized. Where you have the self-knowledge which is to understand your dependency upon God in a Christian context, but also to realise your moral contingency and that you need others. And so once you recognize that.

You should realise that everyone else is as much of a human being as you and so it should re lead to this radical equality that's quite radical. So why why are you calling that humility? Why why don't you just say it's realistic to say that God is up there and everybody else is? at the same level underneath. It it seems like the wrong virtue.

It almost does, doesn't it? I don't really have an answer for it, but I think I it feels useful in this particular context of today because this moment of pride feeling like such a big part of our society, at least in the kind of like city of the internet version of the world, that suddenly I think this virtue which doesn't get expressed as much Has Carries favour once more because there's so little humility. And so in that reason I think it comes in again.

Can we can we tease out where pride and humility uh intersect? Yeah, so Augustine talks about it in the City of God. It's a well known sin, isn't it, pride? It's the h the worse according to Augustine. There is none worse and it's the one that Satan and Adam and Eve that's the biggest sin is pride. And so humility is there to temper pride or to kinda put the brakes on pride. So they kind of seem counter.

Grab it. I I I think, you know, let let's just go back in the theistic concept of the innate imperfection of humankind. You know, that's that's what it's all about, isn't it? You know, if you accept that you are fallen and imperfect and uh

then humility will flow from that. I mean, it's not an absolute given. I mean, I'm probably going into the Spinoza argument. Yeah, I don't necessarily want to do that yet. But I think that, you know, to ignore that sort of concept of imperfection... uh I think would i is to is to miss a real a really important component of of of where humility springs from.

Let's do Spinoza, shall we? I mean this is the point of the programme where I mention the name of a famous philosopher and cry for help. So so help me, Barock Spinoza, sixteen thirty two to sixteen seventy seven. You're my only hope. Well, Dan Taylor is really. Can I ask you a very loaded question? Yes you can. I'm I'm I'm the voice of Dan Taylor, not the voice of Spinoza, but I'll do my best method. Did Spinoza think that humility was a virtue?

No, he did not. I think some of the discussion so far is is talking about a version of submission and the danger with submission is that it involves a a drastic undervaluing about what makes us powerful and valuable as human beings. Spinoza is a seventeenth century Enlightenment philosopher and lens grinder. He's somebody who did not wish to publish his own work under his own name. Now for Spinoza literally

He literally was a lens grinder.'Cause it sounds like a euphemism the way you said it then. He ground lenses for a living. Actually did. And he d he sees a amazing things through them. And I'm gonna give you an example of um one a bit later, Matthew. Um what makes Spinoza interesting is that

As an Enlightenment philosopher, what he values and what he's trying to make the case for is human power to understand our place in nature and to develop a true or an adequate understanding of nature. Now where does humility fit in? Because so far we might be thinking, well

If we accept that we are just kind of swirling pieces of of matter, corrupt and debased, then we're probably gonna gain a true understanding of our own delusions of pride. Now Spenos will say, Hold on a second. The danger with Humility over humility is that we devalue what makes us valuable as human beings, which is our striving to understand, our striving for knowledge.

Spinoza in addition is quite suspicious of anybody who claims to be humble. Uh in Indie Ethics, his masterpiece, which he published which was published after he died in sixteen seventy seven, he describes the features of the humble person. And he says, We call him humble, this is the translation, who often blushes, who confesses his faults, and relates the virtues and great deeds of others, who yields to all, who walks with a bowed head, and neglects to take upon himself any ornament of dress.

But these emotions of humility and self despising are very rare, for human nature considered in itself, strives as much as possible against them, and therefore those who are believed to be most abject and humble are usually most ambitious and envious. does sound awful, Robert Buckland, doesn't he, this person Spinoza is describing. Rwy'n credu. Rwy'n credu. Rwy'n credu, yw'n credu, yw'n credu, yw'n credu, yw'n credu, yw'n credu, yw'n credu. yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n

He said he's implying it can be imposed from above and that you know it's all about you know i if you take that view then it's imposed upon you. It's not a natural state of what you are as a human being. Look, I think I think the truth the truth lies somewhere in between. And I I I think that

Uh you know, certainly with the development of uh, you know, a more Protestant view of religion, which which is not about, you know, you don't get to faith through doing good acts. You you don't get to Christ yn ymwneud â phobl. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl. Okay. Of what humidity is.

I think Spinoza's living in in an interesting time where there's a lot of overreach of, say, kind of pastors and the clergy. I think it touches on something that we were discussing a little earlier around the distinction between yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n.

Spinoza yn ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw. And I'll say that. Uriel Dacosta, a Jewish free thinker in the time of Spinoza. But if we go to contemporary politics for a moment, I know you won't want to comment on this Robert, but if you think of the figure of Liz Truss, who was um herself somewhat humiliated.

And yet that humiliation didn't necessarily lead to self knowledge, it led to a sense of defiance, ten years to save the West. So if we go back to Spinoza, um Spinoza would say Humility in itself is something that can be weaponized. Those that are powerful claim to have no power, and that is a form of deception against the powerless and the dispossessed, because then they don't know who has power. And also they don't trust their own ability to exercise their own democratic power.

I do want to give Robert a chance to come in and uh and make a comment on that if if he if you want to, Robert. I mean that government was you know, widely considered to have been humbled, I mean, perhaps by the markets, if that's if you I don't know if you agree with that, but that was that was that's a widely held view. Rydw i'n meddwl. Rydw i'n meddwl. Rydw i'n meddwl. Rydw i'n meddwl. Rydw i'n meddwl. Rydw i'n meddwl. Rydw i'n meddwl. Rydw i'n meddwl.

I think if you spoke to the likes of Kwasi Kwasang, the Chancellor, I think he's taken a very different approach to it all, much more of a self-acknowledgement that things went wrong and much more of a readiness to try. And and and how how is it for you, may I ask? Well, it was an extremely difficult time uh for for me personally. Uh uh I you know, you can remember the the the the sheer pace of events and how things unraveled so quickly and it did feel like an abject.

humiliation. Uh and and and I think I I think it it did affect y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd y ffordd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd Mae'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r hyn.

And can you describe it to us? Because it's something that you know, it's something that an awful lot of politicians experience. It's the way that, you know, um the perhaps the majority of political careers end. Uh it's it looks an an enjoyable moment. Does the idea of humility help you Attend it, get through it.

I think the idea of putting it into context helps. I think you'll have to say to yourself that worse things happen at sea. that, you know, there are plenty of other people who who are having much worse experiences at the same time as you. You know, losing your seat isn't like losing your life or losing a loved one.

yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw. that when you're in a moment like that, did you display I I suppose I look look at it more in terms of dignity. Um, you know, you're and I suppose, you know, you're standing on your honour in some ways. You you're you're trying to be dignified. You're trying to be

um respectful, sometimes kind, you know, kindness I think is a word that's underrated, I think, in in a lot of this. Um and I hope that, you know, on the night in question that I was able to display those. uh uh characteristics um and uh you know emerge uh on the basis that I was going to aim to a new chapter of my life rather than you know the close o of uh of my my life in in in politics or in public.

And where does that idea of equality come in at that moment as we've discussed?'Cause I'm thinking that this is a moment when you are you know, you are the equal of everybody in the room, aren't you? It's where nobody, you know, the electorate has spoken to you. Absolutely. Uh you know, it's it's you have to try and depersonalise it actually to get through. You have to say, Look, yeah, is it about me or is it about what I represent and you know, the great tides of politics.

Aren't really about you, the individual, in many respects. Sometimes they can be, you know, I've got to admit that. But you know, I I think that helps. yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna. uh, you know, they were gonna lose their jobs. I had to think about other people and the impact on my family, etc. And actually by doing that, thinking about the others involved.

I think it did help me come to terms with it in a way that I think... Robert's put a bit of distance between him and Spinoza, Dan, but can Spinoza Come in and and have a look at this situation. Uh there's an image that I want to go to and you you trailed it a bit and we need to attend it about the microscope. What what happens here? Can we can we put Robert in in the microscope?

I think we can, yeah. I think, Robert, in what you described there, candour, you used the word dignity, but really I was thinking about service. I think service actually links a lot of what we're talking about. You also used the term depersonalisation. So Spinoza genuinely was a lens grinder and worked with some of the leading um physicists of the day. In one letter he describes a thought experiment which I think supports what Robert is setting out. He says

Imagine that you were looking at some blood in a vial in a microscope and inside this blood is a worm, and we could call it a hemoglobin, like a red blood cell. Imagine that that red blood cell, or the worm as they thought back then, could suddenly think

What would it think? It would think that the blood that it was in was the entire world. It would have no idea of the body and the body and the universe. It would think this is it and this is all of it and ever my movement is the only one thing that matters. And Spinoza says, Well F the worm in the blood, the hemoglobin, is like our unders our place. in the universe. You know, we are little more than lines, planes or bodies. You know, bits, you know, drawings on a piece of paper.

Now the great challenge of Spinoza's philosophy is in this epic moment of depersonalization to not feel aghast, depressed and gloomy, but to see in a profound form of feeling. Service. You know, if you can live with this and and see your value in a depersonalized world, then that is a true humility. No, I I I'm glad you mentioned the word service because because you know, I I I I looked uh my time in in office, you know, was was was about service.

And I I believe in the concept of servant leadership and how you set an example by behaving in a way that can inspire respect and confidence from other people rather than fear and loathing, uh, which I d I think are ant antithetical to public service.

I think that um you know uh power itself, you know, the word power is an interesting one. You know, I viewed it as the wielding of responsibility. Yes, I had great power. I could make decisions to affect the lives of uh which I think helps you to properly not just contextualise what you're doing, but to have a greater understanding of your place in the world.

And however exalted your position or however high your position, th you know, the the fact that you are a grain of sand and that uh if you're not there somebody else ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud hynny.

You're listening to Free Thinking, by far the best programme on BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds, and this week our subject is humility and Lamorna Ash, Robert Buckland, Erin Reeves, Kerry Sullivan and Dan Taylor are here. To discuss it, there's an idea that we haven't mentioned so far, which is related to this, but it's an expression I'd like to explore a bit. Self-effacement. What's that? Aaron. It's clearly an action of some kind, isn't it, rather than a state of mind?

Yeah well I mean one of the things that we we spent some time looking at in this context is actually people that are in positions of power in Britain, what we might call elite. And one of the things that's very common among them today is this posture of of self effacement. We we describe it as performing ordinariness and it's a a way of doing humility that has a particular cultural currency that I think resonates with uh what Dan was saying earlier about about

Spinoza. And in the contemporary context this comes through in a a bunch of different ways. One is maybe through downplaying in in public settings, you know, particularly highbrow or uh good taste uh forms of of of of consumption, while at the same time perhaps uh playing up more uh lowbrow consumption to kind of appeal to the masses. But it comes through in another way too. We might think of it in terms of

how you narrate the stories of your social background, your your class origin, you might want to deflect privilege and and stress the more working class aspects of your of your background. And there's various ways in which elites kind of do this performance of ordinariness. I s most of you are nodding at this. Lorna Yeah you know you buy this? I completely buy this. I think it's also maybe thinking about what Robert was saying as well that I think power

cannot but infect our capacity to be humble. That that when you if you are given this power, you might say that you try and lead in a sort of servant way. ultimately it changes the way you are and it makes you believe you're above other people and that is very hard and takes a lot of wrestling not to actually give in to. So I think this idea of actually putting virtues together

You know, we we don't have to just live with humility alone, but humility is very valuable, but you can put it with self respect. You can put it with this sense of like putting virtues in tension in contention. Robert Buck Oh Carrie, go come in. What about pulp? I I wanna live live like common people. Um and She'll never do it because she's got the cultural capital and Daddy will pay. Um you can't you you've always got possibilities of moving on if you've got that cultural capital.

So is is humility then sometimes an expression of privilege? Can some people afford it easily, Aaron? Mm.

overcome the odds. We want to value people that have succeeded through meritocratic striving and but we also recognise that within British society that Mae llawer o'r bobl sydd wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i' Robert Buckland, have you have you observed the phenomenon that Aaron's describing?

Yeah, well I have and and I do y I do think, you know, there's a it's particularly a trend in modern politics for a lot of politicians to really try and emphasise their humble origins, the son and daughter of immigrants or whatever, all great stuff.

you know, distant part of South West Wales. I didn't have any particular patrons, I just got on with it and persevered and finally got elected. Um I view, you know, I think if you describe yourself as an ordinary person being called to do all extraordinary things. I think that's a much better way of looking at it. Uh and then if you like you're not emphasising, oh you know I've

I've come from, you know, uh the bottom of a you know, a m a a coal mine and uh I've had to claw my way up through, you know, years and years of drudgery. You're you're acknowledging the fact that in wielding power and responsibility you are called upon to do extraordinary acts. But ultimately you are a person like everybody else and you're not innately extraordinary because of the things that you've been called to do. And I think I think trying to draw that distinction is quite a helpful

How do you d describe yourself though, in that when you're in a political role like that? It must self effacement seems like a big temptation there.

When you w the first answer you gave when we came on was a football answer. It was completely con I mean, I know nothing about football, but it completely convinced me. And it's it's the sort of thing that some politicians reach to, isn't it, in order to to make that uh make that link. So Is it hard to describe yourself without getting into these sort of uh minefields?

Oh of course it is. I think it's really difficult because the experiences that you'll have had in or I've had in politics are so out of the ordinary for, you know, the vast majority of people. you know, to sit round the cabinet table of the United Kingdom, to, you know, uh work personally with, you know, sovereigns or prime ministers. You know, it's not normal. It's not ordinary. It just it it's extra extraordinary.

But it's the circumstances and the acts that are extraordinary, not necessarily you innately. And you know, I think the danger is then in believing your own propaganda, if you like, that you you become extraordinary because of these things. That's where the danger lies. Aaron. And I think it's especially difficult for politicians, in part because they're accountable to wider publics. They want to demonstrate, I think, a sense of

Solidarity with them and a a sense of concern and care for the lives of those that they're that they're trying to serve. And it's not that it's unique.

to people in positions of power. I think we all to some extent modulate the self presentation that we give of ourselves to others in different kinds of settings and interactions. I think the the point in this setting is that it can um have a purpose to kind of um obscure that solidarity, to actually um obscure real class differences, to to create the illusion of commonality when actually there's really quite striking differences between people.

It sounds a little bit like uh Erin though that you're you're saying that that privileged people are locked out of the idea of humility. I mean w why why should they be? I wouldn't say locked out from, but I think what's important in this context is to um have a degree of transparency. I think what what's perhaps most egregious in this context is where people try to emphasize the difficulties that they've overcome when actually that isn't really a faithful reflection, in part because it

actually belies the fact that Britain isn't really a meritocracy, but actually people start to believe it. And actually when people when elites successfully convince others that they come from these humble origins People like them more. And so in that sense it's it's really a lie. And that in that sense it's not really humility that we're talking about.

Yes, that is the difference between false humility and true humility, which again requires that self knowledge to actually look at yourself and work out what what you where your status really is, how you actually have got to the places you have. And then so maybe that thing of what elites need to do is um be much more truthfully humble. Than someone else. Um I was I was also wondering it sorry.

I was because they were talking slightly in generalities here and uh without kind of m making life difficult for us, uh can you kind of name an instance of this, a person or a moment that embodies this uh This phenomenon. Yeah, I can give you two. I think politicians are really quite um good examples of this. Um I think one is very well known now. We have Kirstarmer who has, you know, frequently talked about his father being a toolmaker.

Um this is obviously playing into that same kind of discursive rhetoric. Um but it can certainly be overplayed and this is the the point here that He's often mocked for it. Exactly. That it th that there's a sense in which this performance of ordinariness is recognized as performative and and then actually maybe it doesn't serve the same function. And in that sense it doesn't feel humble.

A another example which is a little bit more trivial, um but I remember Rishi Sunak, kind of at towards the end of of his premiership, uh did an interview in which he was wearing a pair of Adidas.

trainers and this became sort of like widely mocked on social media because they were clearly just straight out of the box. And the the attempt to come across as being casual, a everyday, uh wearing sort of trendy shoes And and again what what we think is happening here is there's something just not authentic or about that that doesn't resonate and and and and there's these efforts to try and come across as being

Authenticity is always gonna be a kind of performance. I love what Aaron says around the performativity of ordinariness. I mean On a on a certain level you can understand if you are part of a a political status quo which is largely despised by the public, um, you know, t public trust in politicians is at epically low levels.

And so you perform a kind of commonality. But w the core issue could be the major centralisation of power in the country. So I wonder Erin what you know, what what do you think were the true Humility look like if it's not the kind of you know, um I football ex I follow ex-football team and wear these trainers or I go to Greg's on a Sunday, um what would what would

Just very briefly. I th I think the the true humility is perhaps being transparent about the privileges that have scaffolded your life, but also being genuinely connected with the people in your community. Carrie, if we were talking about the value of humility, the authenticity of humility in your period, the Renaissance, would it be the same kind of conversation where they've worried about the Tell us why.

Rydyn ni'n meddwl, mae'r gwahanol yn ymwneudol, mae'r gwahanol yn ymwneudol, mae'r gwahanol yn ymwneudol, mae'r gwahanol yn ymwneudol, mae'r gwahanol yn ymwneudol. The grammar schools are producing s which is sixteenth century, um the grammar schools are producing loads of well educated but not well connected boys and they need jobs and there aren't jobs, so they they're looking round for other ways of making themselves look

So they're picking up courtesy handbooks from the 1570s and 80s and actually seeing if they can take these sorts of gestures on noblesse oblige. I'm actually of higher rank, but I'm letting you go forward. Now what are those? I mean I feel you're kind of doing them almost now in the studio. You're extending your hand there to Aaron, as though you might be bowing. I'm going to ask Aaron to teach us, if he wouldn't mind, a little humility, a bit of...

Come, my masters, please it you that we wash our hands Oh after you, sir if it please you. Leave ceremonies, for I cannot abide them. Let us wash if it please you. Rydyn ni'n gwneud. Rydyn ni'n gwneud. Rydyn ni'n gwneud. Ah, sir, it should not be so but your desire has all authority with us. And what, my masters, were you not pleased to sit? Oh, it'll be after you, sir, if it please you, and it goes on for pennies.

I had no idea that was going to happen. You've been planting, haven't you, in the green room? We have. I think thank you very much. Come on stage with me. Um I i i Gloss all that for us then.

Uh rank i if you want to be humble you need to know where you are in the rank and then you need to give people space to be above you. But you mustn't be taken seriously about it. So um Rydyn ni'n gweithio cymdeithasol, mae'r cymdeithasol, mae'r cymdeithasol, mae'r cymdeithasol, mae'r cymdeithasol, mae'r cymdeithasol.

Uh and and you know I need to make sure that, you know, everybody knows that I know that he has this sort of ability. Um, so you give place to him, but at the same time you make sure everybody's listening. Um They they're listening to you say, Oh no, no, after you, after you. The door is often the place where you get these battles of humility. Ranking. But everybody knows that the point is to watch. So there's a bishop, Giovanni della Casa, does the rules of polite behaviour, and he says,

These sorts of battles are very tedious. And you could see the dinner is going to get cold between you and Lina. Um their conversation and manners are very troublesome. Um they creep down to the base place. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud yn ei wneud. Yn ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. This is nothing to do with a state of uh a state of Yeah.

Yes, but but everybody's playing the game. I I d I I mean I I oh You you seem sort of quite gloomy about I mean what if what if Sunak put the trainers on knowing I mean surely he's got publicity people who'd n would say um knowing that this would create a Ferrari uh uh We have no idea that's very Mysterious moment in Can't impute intention. Definitely, yeah.

Carrie, does c can we use this to to interpret some from texts of the period that that you know are kind of familiar to us, or feeling to some of us? The end of Taming of the Shrew when Kate Turns to the audience and advises women to put their hand below their husband's foot. Now that's a it's a kind of a n a a nut for every audience and production to crack that scene, isn't it? Isn't does what you're describing help us understand what's going on in that scene?

That that that's weaponising. They've already been flirting about h her subordination for scenes and scenes and scenes beforehand. So if you want to take it down the the Protestant companionate marriage and this is a properly uh uh a a properly conducted family, well you've got that opportunity.

Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd Um yes, I've seen it played like well I feel I've seen it played everywhere it can be played that scene. That's four ways and you know on. I if if I can just give you another example. Um uh this is uh

Uh Helena in Midsummer Night's Dream. Um she's chasing after Demetrius and that that's the wrong way round, it ought to be the other way round, particularly as Demetrius has been fl flirting with her beforehand. Um and she says, I'm your Spaniel, Demetrius. The more you beat me, the more I'll fawn on you. Burn me, strike me, neglect me, lose me, only give me leave unworthy as I am to follow you. And there's th there's a sort of masochistic aggression towards this sort of humility.

You've got an example from George Herbert as well, I think. Or Lumulona. Is he is George Herbert your example too? No Who wanted to bring Herbert in? You do, go on. Okay. Well you know when I said um uh I didn't sometimes I think that humility before God is just mistaken, it's just a reality that God is.

all goodness, all grace, and anything we can do, says Article fourteen, um of the thirty nine articles, is it's it i it's it's it's nothing. It it must all come from him, and if we think it comes from us it's superrogation. Um

And Herbert has a number of poems where he tries to do the best for God or tries to efface himself. So there's a Love Three poem in which he keeps presenting mae'r ddweud yn ddweud yn ddweud, mae'r ddweud yn ddweud, mae'r ddweud yn ddweud, mae'r ddweud yn ddweud, mae'r ddweud yn ddweud yn ddweud. God, at the end of Love 3, simply says, well, sit down and eat. That's it. So I think this poem, it's called The Hold Fast, and it's a dialogue between God Played by Lamorna.

Fantastic. It's the dream of it. I know. Um and I'm gonna be the bumptious person who tries to do the best. So I threaten to observe the strict decree of my dear God with all my power and might, but I was told by one It could not be, yet I might trust in God to be my light. Oh, then well I trust said I in him alone. Nay, even to trust in him was also his, we must confess that nothing is our own. But to have not then I confess that he my sucker is.

But to have naught is ours, not to confess that we have naught. I stood amazed at this, much troubled, till I heard a friend express All things were more ours being his. th that sense of uh cutting down any attempt to believe that you can do um anything, um including being humble. Thank you very much. Thank you for all this performance. Again, I like I I had no idea what I was stepping into here. Robert Buckland, do you want to come in on this?

I do. George Herbert, y'know, I love the poetry of George Herbert. I think most of my life, y'know, I read him as a teenager and I still got a collection of his poetry. The Church Porch is probably my favourite. ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r hyn.

I wished I'd taken that advice on many occasions. Lie not, but let thy heart be true to God is is a is a great one, and never exceed thy income. Another one perhaps I failed to Robert, what about this idea of of humility as a social technique that uh Carrie was describing? W uh like I'm I'm wonder about that in politics too. Uh I do but but you know what I was thinking of when when when when I was listening to that exchange, I was thinking of Paul Whitehouse and Suits You Sir.

yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n Who are being servile? And that's a kind of civility that becomes terrifying as well, isn't it, in those characters on the Fast Show? But what about the uses of humility in politics, Robert? Is it any use to a politician who wants to get stuff done? Or is it an obstacle?

Um, I I just I think it can be used to get stuff done. I'll give you an example. Um I had to deal with a very difficult set of uh figures and bad performance in the prosecution of rape. Uh and I uh g uh commissioned a review. It was led by a victim. uh the review was published, it it made for very, very difficult reading. And I thought, well, how do I do this? Do I do, you know, non confession and avoidance? Do I put a brave face on it?

And I thought actually the place to start is to apologize and to say this is not good enough. I'm really, really sorry. And I don't think it's good enough. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud, yn ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. Ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. Ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

Uh and you know, whilst whilst I think the figures are still low, they've certainly improved from that low base and the work that's been done since has been, you know, really steady and uh pretty impressive.

Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau Ac yw'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn Well I wonder what your example tells us about whether humility is what we do or whether it's some sort of sensibility within us. It sounds to me like it's the act.

That's important in what you're describing there, Robert. Yeah. Very much so. yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw

not to be somebody. And if you believe that politics is about the doing, then through those acts you are, I think, demonstrating, you know, humility. Call it what you like, you know, call it a sense of real a'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud.

I love this. I I think um what we're talking about here is a form of humility that's reliant on candor and transparency. I think there'll be a perception for a lot of the public that uh humility is inconsistent with holding high office in politics. I think what you set out there, Robert, is a very nice modelling of it.

I've been doing a lot of interviews recently with councillors and council officers and we know the local elections are coming up in May. Um and in my interviews we've been floating around a term from the Stoic philosopher Epictetus. yw'r handbook yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r

so little um is in the hands of elected councillors. And the same could be said for many MPs or in the positions that you held. But the one thing that is in our power is our attitude and our disposition to our relationships with others. And I think what you were describing there

was a kind of candour and transparency about m about something going wrong and and taking responsibility there. I think we need a lot more of it. On the other hand, an o a p an overperform sense of service of the ways in which Keir Starmer is often widely lampooned for, you know, h him kind of the government of service.

We've still transparency also m needs to involve a statement of where power is and where power lies. So in your case, Robert, you couldn't have been responsible for all of those mistakes, but maybe victims also needed to know what a true reparation would look like.

Uh look, I th I think that's right and and sometimes perhaps an assumption, you know, yeah, I suppose I could be criticised I could be criticised for assuming a responsibility that wasn't necessarily mine, because of course the prosecution of offences is for the independent Crown Prosecution, so it's not for ministers.

However, you've got to look at it from the point of view of the public and the victims. They're gonna look at government as as one more And if there isn't an authoritative voice saying, Look, I'm sorry, I'm really sorry, I get this, I'm sorry, we we've got to do better then you y you know, the trust isn't gonna be there and the faith isn't gonna be there and and

you know, I felt very much certainly at a constituency level as well. As you say, you don't necessarily the power to make the change, but it's your attitude. If you're forward leaning and you're you're trying to do your best for the constituent and the constituent things Well at least he's tried. I know it was difficult and perhaps he didn't get the results I wanted, but by God he tried. I wonder whether... That does a lot to restore faith in in the process.

I wonder whether there wasn't another example of this kind of act today. Um the Bible Society withdrawing the report about a supposed revival of of church attendance in the young, the quiet revival the report was called. They said today that it there were some dodgy stats there and the conclusions were wrong.

And they didn't quietly withdraw it, they announced it quite quite clearly. Did you what did you make of that, Lamorna? Uh particularly in the week of the investiture of the new Archbishop of Canterbury. Yeah, well it just feels like deeply necessary, doesn't it? And it's like a relief when people actually do admit their their failings and their wrongdoing.

um or or and n not that I know in this case it's failing wrongdoing, but but to say, Oh, I made a mistake, this ability to take things back and I think that that's just like a really valuable, important thing to happen. Why is it so hard, Aaron? Yeah, why is it so hard? For all of us, for institu not just for institutions, individuals, everybody.

We want to retain a certain conception of ourselves as both good, as doing well, as being the right kinds of people that are contributing positively in the world. So difficult I think to just wrestle with these moments and but I think it's so incredibly valuable as we've I think heard tonight the the kind of resonance that you feel when people are willing to take responsibility and accountability for the things that they get wrong. Why you just disagree? I'm sorry.

Go on. Give us it. Give us a disagreement. I think you're right that uh the hum humility act uh i i is in the act, not in the declaration. The declarations are negotiations with the other people, trying to get them to lift you up in some way. Uh I'd never listen to an apology. I'd be listening to well

I I also if if I can just take a slightly more uh literary and and that's actually not unreasonable because because so much of what we're talking about is the way that things are talked about in the world. So a more literary way. All the big plots come from the people. either have a lot of pride or have such aggressive humility, like Uriah Heap, or like Mr Pumblechook, or like Rob the Grinder. yw'n bwysig yw'n bwysig yw'n bwysig yw'n bwysig yw'n bwysig yw'n bwysig yw'n bwysig.

As as as as you're suggesting. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean I I think the crucial thing for me when it comes to thinking about this is that I don't think humility is something that we can necessarily Sea Clear.

So while I think the act of apology, of trying to make amends is crucial, the way that that lands is essential for whether humility exists in that moment, which is the Actually humility is something that others see in us and therefore we have to struggle to see whether we can e approach and encounter the world with a degree of humility through how others see us in action. Very briefly.

Yeah, I think there's two there's a struggle of two different things here. On the one hand there is the need for genuine self knowledge and self understanding and on the other there is a kind of performative non agency. And I think what we are trying to value is self understanding and not the non agency. Well in the last few seconds of the programme I'd like to to ask you, um, honestly, how did you think this all w how did you do, Lamorna? How good were you do you think tonight?

Oh, not so good. Wishy washy, who knows? Hard to say. Haram Fine. Yeah, Dan? Okay. Bye. I forgot the George Eliot quote, but I think people got the gist of it. How did you do, Kerry, do you think? No idea. Alright. Well, you know, to be absolutely honest with you, I I think you were all brilliant and you know what? It's my show and so it's my opinion matters. Uh thank you all very much indeed. I want to humbly thank

All of our guests tonight, Lamorna Ash, Robert Butland, Erin Reeves, Carrie Sullivan, and Dan Taylor, and the producer Ruth Watts. Free thinking is going to take an Easter break, but be assured we will return.