SNM262: Why your High Ticket Coaching Program is Failing with Matt Johnston

Jonathan Green: While your high ticket coaching program is failing with special guest, Matt Johnson, on today's episode.

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Announcer: Are you tired of dealing with your boss? Do you feel underpaid and underappreciated? If you want to make it online, fire your boss and start living your retirement dreams now, then you've come to the right place. Welcome to Serv No Master Podcasts, where you'll learn how to open new revenue streams and make money while you sleep. presented live from Atropical Island in the South Pacific by best selling author, Jonathan Green. Now here's your host,

Jonathan Green: Now, Matt, I really appreciate you spending some time today because this is a topic near and dear to my heart. And a lot of people try to sell high ticket coaching, especially over the past few years. I noticed that the day after people would lose their job or get locked down during the COVID times, they're on clubhouse saying they were a coach, like day one coach, a COVID coach, and so many people jumped into the market without really understanding that there's a little bit more to it than that. So let's start with the baseline. What is your definition of high ticket? What some of the things of high ticket coaching? What's the real number?

Matt Johnston: I would say the absolute baseline is, like, $3000 product, I I define it as, do you need a sales call to sell this? That, for me, would be it's getting lower every year, but I'd say maybe 3, though. Because, yeah, that's a really great place to start from.

Jonathan Green: So a lot of people then are thinking about becoming coaches, and there's all these certifications and processes
and different coaching systems. It's like, sometimes people come to me and go, oh, I have a certification from this place. And, well, I've never heard of it. So it doesn't make me wanna work with them anymore because it's not a brand or a coaching product that I know anything about. So when someone's thinking about high ticket coaching, or maybe we could start from this. What are the biggest mistakes you see people make when they decide to launch a high ticket coaching program?

Matt Johnston: Well, I think the number one biggest mistake they make is they build it before they sell it. So a lot of coaches, they say, oh, I'm creating a coaching business. So I need to build a curriculum. Just like if I start a laundromat, I gotta have a laundromat before I can get the customers. Well, luckily, in the info space, we don't have to build the laundromat first. We can first test our marketing to make sure that it's going to resonate. Because if you I mean, I have talked to some people that have said, oh, I've spent a year, 2 years building this curriculum and making it a world class curriculum. And I started selling it, and now nobody's buying it. What do I do? And that was the that's the biggest mistake that they because they just haven't market tested it at all. And they haven't been able to adapt it to the market. So it's it wouldn't get results anyway. So that's the biggest one. It's the biggest mistake. Yeah. That resonates with me because I worked with a lot of product creators, and they come to these ideas

Jonathan Green: I say, well, how do you know anyone who wants that? I remember this is my favorite story. It's a few years 5 or 6 years ago, a friend of mine was like, hey. I just created an entire program on how to quit vaping. And I said, I didn't even know that was a market. How did you find out? There's all of you trying to quit vaping. He's like, oh, no. I just kinda had the idea. I said, oh, wait. Right. And Of course, maybe in 20 years, it'll be, like, ahead of its time, but I don't know anyone who's trying to quit vaping right now. Right? It's everyone's switching to vaping. It's the wrong It's like trying to tell people quit smoking in the fifties. It's the wrong time for it. And -- Right. -- people putting these there's this idea, right, that you can create a curriculum without any or an interactivity. Every time I work with a coaching client, what they want is not what I thought it. Right? There's this part where they say, no. What I really wanna learn from you is x. And that interactivity is such a critical part of figuring out what people want for you, figuring out your pricing structure, and it's Very strange to me when someone has, like, a coach parameter set in stone, and I say, well, how many people have you worked with? Because I modify or I adjust because people go, Jonathan, I don't have this problem. I have problem. I can't go, well, that's not this week's lesson. Right? You can't say that because then they're gonna drop chip. But it's very it's often the unexpected, and that's why even with my lower ticket programs, I teach them live because the questions help me make it a better program. They're never the things that are hard for me are very rarely the things that are hard for my students. And so if I just focus on what's hard for me and say this is the hard way, oh, no. We get that. But this part is different for us. So I think you're onto something there. What's this maybe what's another thing that people where people get stuck? What's another mistake they make? Maybe it's in pricing.

Matt Johnston: Yeah. Well, one mistake that people make is that they think that they I mean, this is pretty common as the people think that they wanna sell courses, and they don't realize they should be selling coaching programs. they may look at themselves like a course, or they may look at themselves like a coach, but then they're like, so I'm gonna make this course. And then I'm gonna put people through it, and I'm gonna charge, like, a $197 for it. And -- The thing is, it's just as hard to get a $197 sale as it is to get a $5000 sales call booked on your calendar. and there's better results, which is not to say that courses shouldn't exist, but people rarely do them. And one of the issues that happens is that They just don't get the results because of that, and they're just as hard to sell. So if you're able to support your students and be an actual coach, you're gonna get better results. It's gonna be a better product. You're gonna be on sales calls frequently, which is going to give you a feedback loop to be able to make the program better and then make the marketing better. and make the sales of this product better, and you can scale it up even more. And, obviously, you make much more money much faster, but you also have more impact. That's another big mistake that I see folks make. Or they also just they get too hung up on the curriculum. Like, anybody that's been in, like, a mastermind or a high ticket coaching program knows that the curriculum is, like, not a it's barely a thing. I mean, every single student I've ever had in my high ticket coaching programs and every high ticket coaching program I've been a part of. The big the biggest breakthrough moments, the best results have all come on the calls. They've come from the mentor. or they've happened within the community. So let's not be so curriculum focused. That's like an old school. Like, we all went to college and are still trying to figure out how to make these things work together type of way of looking at things. Does that make sense? Absolutely.

Jonathan Green: know, I come from the product creation world, and there's this tendency to think that bigger is better. And as I pulled back, right over the years. I've been doing this for 12 years and switched from, hey. There's 67 training videos. Now when I hear that from Sonos and scores, I go, I don't have that kind of it sounds like so much work. Now instead, when I sell my high ticket programs, again, in the multi 1000 range, it starts up with, here's the 6 things we're gonna learn. What day of the week of the lessons? Doesn't matter. Right? How long lessons? Doesn't matter. We're gonna get through these 6 hurdles however long it takes. Right? That's the process, and that sells so much better for me. learning less is more because it's switching from the here's all you get to the problem solution has really made a difference for me realizing that's what we really buy is the solution to our problems. Nobody wants to hire a coach. What we really wanna do is fix a specific problem. And I think this is the problem in the coaching here. I often you know, I work with lots and lots of people who are coaches, and I say, why is this thing you do. Why is this the area of coaching you do? And oftentimes, there's not really a reason. And it can be or they haven't really thought about it from that mindset. What do people wanna what do people wanna buy? What's the solution they're really looking for, the problem that you solve? If it's not really a problem, I see so many people that are like, I help you turn your dreams into reality. I don't know what that means. right, these ephemeral promises, especially if you look at every LinkedIn profile. Right? I help you, like, accelerate your business or I help you untie these things, but it's so vague or it's these words, like buzzwords that have no meaning, that is where I get lost. And I was also thinking about what you said a moment ago, not to jump around, is that I think the biggest barrier for everyone is to call. I think that's why people do products instead of anything else is they're so afraid of getting on the phone that It's just, like, everyone I work with, whatever I talked about, I'll do anything to not have to do phone calls. I mean, you have to talk to them eventually. Right? Like, you can't never talk to your customers.

Matt Johnston: But Why is getting on the phone? That's the mark of who's gonna be successful versus Zoom, not who's not gonna be successful. You know? Like, people used to back into, like, the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, and then into the early 2 thousands, the people that didn't wanna do that work didn't start businesses. And so that's just how it worked. Right? If you don't wanna do the work of an entrepreneur, then that's not gonna happen. But then there were all these success stories when the Internet first happened of people selling 300 dollars, $400, $500 up to a 1000, 2000, even sometimes products without ever doing a sales call and just selling them your ads on autopilot that it became like, oh, this is something that I can build. It is astronomically difficult to sell anything. over even, I mean, honestly, these days, I feel like with the skepticism and consumer confidence where it is now, like, over $500, you're in you're having a hard time. But, yeah, that's the problem. And I would say, listen, like, you just gotta get over it. You gotta get over it because people are not buying your thing, as you said. I work mainly with creatives, people that are trying to build a business doing creative work, and they're focused on their creative work. So they think that oh, I do a design or I create a video. We're we'll get a lot of filmmakers. I create a video, and that video is my product, and that's what they're going to buy. But you'll never sell anything that way. Right? Like, they're not they don't want the video. They want the what the video is going to get them. They want what's on the other side of it. If they could just skip to the result, they would just get the result and just skip the video altogether. So you need to learn how to sell that. And the same goes when you're looking at high ticket products. Right? If you are just relying on a landing page to sell your thing. Number 1, you're gonna have to charge way less. And number 2, like, you're not gonna be able to actually know what this person wants. What is their dream? Like, what do they actually want to achieve? What's the main problem that they have? You gotta get on the phone with them. You gotta get over it. I don't wanna pretend that it's easy. Sales is hard, and then, like, it took me hundreds of calls to get anywhere near decent at it. it's really hard and it's nerve wracking and it's emotionally draining. But do you wanna be an entrepreneur or not? That's my sort of hard nosed approach to Right? That's how I feel about it, especially in this economy and the way ads are now and everything. It's just that's the reality. Yeah. I think that there's

Jonathan Green: so much advertising that's push button this and click button that that people think it's easy that There's no hard work part. And so when they start doing calls, they wanna get good fast. And you're not like, oh, I'm gonna master phone calls in 1 week. It's like, I don't I wish. That sounds amazing, but any skill. Right? No one learns how to ride a bike in 3 tries, but there's such this, I think in our culture, this it should be easier. I'm gonna quit if it's easy. I'm working with a part of my team. They're in their twenties, they're doing a ton of calls now selling their first product. They're doing, like, 50 calls a week, and they're like, oh, we only sold 11 this week. I'm like, guys, you did over $20,000 in 1 week, and you're 22. That's amazing. Right? You're doing really, really good. And then, oh, we added down a week. We only did $10. I'm like, you're still it's consistency is not there. It takes time to develop a skill, but there's this belief Right? Oh, that the 1st week we sell 10, then the next week we'll sell 10. Like, there's 2 different things. Right? Hitting 10 and then consistently hitting 10 are not the same skill. And -- Yeah. -- there's a lot of learning because sometimes you just have a bunch of people that are ready to buy no matter what. Right? And you just have a great week, and sometimes you just have a tough week. But it's the keep getting back up, keep doing the calls. That's so hard, and people expect it to be a short learning curve. And I think that's why there's people that are professional phone sellers, right, because they put in hundreds hundreds of calls to get there. That's why that skill exists. So it's that other thing you think But it's also mindset, as you said. Yeah. Because even if you're really good at it, 70% of people are gonna say no. And that's the real skill. How do you get up after you know? Yeah. I think the hard part is that there's an emotional attachment to a rejection. Right? Of course. When I was -- Yeah. -- younger. You know, I did phone sales for a large computer company. So I took 100100100100 of calls. Right? So it helped me to get over that thing because at least they were calling inbound. Right? But there's this feeling of oh, they didn't buy it. They've rejected me as a human being, and it's like, that's not we over we, like, make it bigger than it is. and it's hard oh, that call. I thought it was gonna happen. Didn't happen. And then getting on the next call, it's like you start instead of starting at 0, you start, like, negative 1 or negative 2. I think the emotional part is the hardest part for people that if especially when it's your own product, then it's, like, really is. There it feels like they're judging you. And -- Yeah. -- it can be I think that's the hardest way because you go, oh, I got in this business because I wanna coach, not because I wanna sell coaching. Right? Like, I think that's the other thing is that there's this hurdle there that we're all looking for a shortcut around. Right? Oh, maybe if I just have a webinar, I don't have to do the phone call. Right? Or maybe if I do this shortcut or that shortcut. We're all trying to avoid that, but it feels like it's the mandatory step if you will. It's, like, the one step -- -- the other piece of it. Like, I've I talked to so many people, and listen, I've done this too. I've made this mistake.

Matt Johnston: You're just like, you don't wanna do it because I find sales calls to be emotionally It's just how it is. Like, I pour myself out there. Like, it's the whole that's my job is to sell. Right? But they would just wanna smile. They're like, how fast can I get to a sales rep? Or I'm selling a high ticket program. I need to hire somebody to do sales. That is the fastest way to lose tons of money really fast. especially if you were selling it well. Like, as soon as like, you cannot hire a rep on until you're ready if you've been doing sales successfully. you cannot hire a rep on until you are, like, financially ready to drop at least 30% in sales month to month. like, at the beginning while they're figuring out how to do this. because nobody's gonna sell it as well as you. And if you've never sold it, and you're just giving it to a rep. That's the fastest way to make a high ticket coaching program crash and burn from the outset, in my opinion. I think you need to do your own sales. If you don't do your own sales, you can never have somebody do sales for you because you won't be able to coach them. You're gonna be like, hey. Why aren't you selling as well anymore? they're gonna be like, I don't know. Everything seems fine. It must be the leads. And then you're like, oh, you're like, oh, it must be the leads. Right? because you won't know what they're doing. it's a huge problem. It's a huge problem. You're totally right about that. No. I that's my favorite line from Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross. He's like, the leads are weak your weak. I also -- I don't remember that line, but I love that. That's the that that's Alec Baldwin because the guy he goes, the leads are well. That's great. I love And he goes, 1st place is a brand new BMW. 2nd place is substate, and I have certain places you're fired. because

Jonathan Green: I forgot about that. That's, like, a forty year old 30, forty year old woman. That's the excuse that's been going around forever. Yeah. Is that the leads are weak, the leads are bad, and some yeah. It does happen sometimes. Right? Like, when I was selling on the phone and I had to work during the Super Bowl, the calls that came in were the worst. Right? People that are calling during a holiday, Those tend not to be the best calls. Those are the toughest days, but there are still sales in there. But it can be once it's not your fault, then you can't fix it. And I think that's the most important lesson about coaching or sales or anything is that as soon as it's the pro as soon as it's not your fault, then you can't fix it. You give away your power to fix it. And I also you know, we talked a lot about phones. I do love this topic, but I also wanna get some exciting topics for coaches, which is there's such a market out there for coaches teaching coaches how to be coaches. And I used to go to a lot of conferences. And I would meet people like, what do you do? Oh, I coach coaches. I had to coach other coaches. And I was like, well, that that doesn't sound like a real thing. Like, that sounds like an imaginary job. Right? Like, it's a pretend job. But there's so many people that have created this. And then I guess well, I can't coach someone unless I have a coach mindset that comes out there. I've always been at the bottom of a direct resulting. Right? Like, I help people to write their book. So if the book doesn't get written, right, that's an there's a measurable either the result happened or it didn't. But there's this whole world of immeasurable results. Right? Like, I help you coach, but are you a better coach by help? Nobody can tell that I've wondered if people, like, at the 1 or 2 level of coaching are starting to get pulled into something they don't need to be a part of. I don't understand like life coaching certifications. There's so many or this and that. Let's be honest, you don't know I went to college and you don't care. It's either I can give a good interview with you or not. Right? It's either I can coach well or not. It's not about where I went to high school or what my favorite color is. And so I wonder the secondary market that's created has become a distraction. It almost means, oh, I have to make more money to coach, charge more as a coach because I have to pay my super coach these additional fees to learn these additional skills, which I don't know that they're necessary. That's I wondered your thought on that because you're a little deeper in this market than I am.

Matt Johnston: Here's what I would say. Never pay somebody to be a better coach. if you really don't know how to coach, you probably shouldn't you're probably not an expert, and you probably can't you shouldn't be delivering this service. And if that's a problem, we need to go back to square 1. Don't buy that. However, I do think coaches who teach you and it's hard because there's so many, and it's easy to be skeptical, and you should be. Coaches that teach you how to get coaching clients There is value there, of course, because a lot of people that are subject matter experts are not so much like me and you, like like, I teach high ticket coaching programs, Specifically, I help filmmakers grow their businesses and creatives grow their businesses. But I'm way more of a marketer than I have been, like, anything else, like, over time. Right? I also I'm a subject matter expert as well, and I've done all the things, but I'm a marketer. So it's easier for me to plug into these things. And I have and I'm still in a very high level mastermind to help me with strategies to market and sell my coaching services. but that's what you need. Right? So you have a lot of subject matter experts. Oh, I'm a relationship coach, and that's I'm great at that. or I'm, like, a a really good, I don't know, like, any consumer based thing. Right? I help people deal with grief. I help people deal with divorce. I help people deal with legal frameworks. I help people deal with custody battle and what whatever it is. those people are now marketers. Like, they really truly are subject matter experts that can help many more people at scale if they were to sell a high ticket coaching program, which is what business should be. Business should exist to solve problems in amazing ways. They don't know how to market and sell what they do. They just because, like, a lot of them had a private practice before or something, and people would just come to them through just word-of-mouth, and that was fine because they had a smaller business. So I would say, yeah, to answer your question, don't hire somebody to be a better coach. that's a marker that you probably shouldn't start that business right now. Don't, but do hire someone to help you learn how to get leads as a coach because that's ever evolving and changing. You just need to be super clear about who you hire to do that. Does that make sense to answer your question?

Jonathan Green: Yeah. I think that's a really good answer because when I think about all the programs I've seen, some are like, oh, here's how to create a coaching curriculum. I've seen a load of those. But here's how to get more clients. And that's, I think, a lot more valuable, especially for a psych matter expert. But -- Yeah. Because your business doesn't exist without clients. So -- Yeah. It doesn't matter how good a coach you are. I think a lot of people have fallen into the if you build it, they will come trap. Like, you build a that was a field of dreams. Right? Oh, I'll just build a business. I'll put the shingle on my door, and people will find me. And it's Unfortunately, not true. It's really hard to find. Even when you're looking for something specific, it's so hard to find that specific thing because there's just so many people in the market. And there are so many people that have decided the coaching thing they're gonna sell before anyone has said they need it. Like, I remember, someone few years ago asking someone, I was like, how did you decide to become this kind of coach? And why did you become a coach? Like, I didn't become a coach. The people demanded it. And I was like, don't have many clients. Why would you say that? That's a crazy person thing to say. The people didn't demand it. There's no one there demanding. What people -- Like -- Yeah. -- I think maybe people think coaching is easy which it's not like I wish it was, but it's unless you don't care about your customers or clients at all, like, it's you're invested in their results and you're invested in what's happening in their lives and you become, like, pretty connected So I think that there's this it pulls people in because they think, oh, it's the easiest way to make money online because you get paid at the beginning of the work and at the end. Right? You get paid at the start not at the end of the process. And I get it. Like, it sounds easy, but there's exactly these other parts to it. So I'm very interested that you specifically coach creatives. I've never met someone who does that before. So it's very interesting because I meet I grew up, and the idea was, oh, you can either have a job or be a starving artist. Like, the idea of an artist who wasn't starving is something that I've never heard of. Right? There's this and now there's so many things artists and creatives can do that are amazing often, when I talk to people that do one of my previous employees asked me to talk to her partner as a boy. He was talking he's a videographer guy in Australia. He was talking about Well, I don't even know what I would do. And I was like, there's 10 different ways you can have a business. You can make music videos. You can edit people's videos. You can help people edit their TikToks or you These are completely different jobs. You can be an after effects person, right, who helps people do that starting thing. I know there's people that just do what is the beginning of the movie, right, where it says the credits. Like, that's a job. There's and they're completely different skill sets. And it's so often that people don't realize that they're very, very different skill sets. Like, you can't just be a videographer because there's Adding a music video is not the same as editing a movie. Right? It's different. Or editing a TikTok video, you got 7 seconds to work with. That's a whole different game. And So how do you help people? Like, where does it start with when you work with creators? And how did that kind of become your passion?

Matt Johnston: It's very interesting to me. I mean, that that's my background. When I was I'm forty one now, getting there, getting up there. And but all through my twenties, I was starving artist guy. I was directing plays in New York city off Broadway, being a starving artist guy having a day job. I understand that mentality. But as I And then I continued to, like I I sort of leverage that into online video, and I started running a bunch of online video programs, like, in journalism. Like, I ran New York Magazine's video program and men's health and all these. So that was just my background. That's how I got into it. But I think the real truth here is that the creator economy is not right now. Like, it's absolutely nuts. If you're out there and you have a creative skill set and you're thinking about yourself as a starving artist, like, come on. Give me a break. Like, that's you shooting yourself in the foot. There are people that will pay a heck of a lot of money for you to design something for them. Even if you're not that good, they'll pay you a heck of a lot of money to design something in Canva for them because they can't be bothered. You know? but video is an asset that I mean, there there's different levels of awareness. Right? Obviously, marketing 101 is meet them where they are. So we have to know how problem aware someone is and how solution to where they are. So 10 years ago, if you're selling video as a service, for example, you may have to go out and help someone see that this is the solution to the problem that they have. They just don't see it. They can't connect the dots. But and this is true for designers. This is true for all creatives right now. you're this is this amazing time where the entire potential market is very problem aware and very solution aware. So they don't you don't even have to work as hard to make them see that video will solve their problems or design will solve their problems. They know because they see their competitors being more spending more money on ads, spending more money on creative, and that's creating awareness that's driving them well ahead of the game. You know? And that's an amaze this is an amazing time. And but, of course, the problem is a lot of creatives don't understand how to draw that line. They don't understand how to sell. They don't understand how to get there. and they don't have any idea how valuable they are because they don't understand how business works. So they don't really understand that there are small businesses out there, like millions of them that are out there just banging on doors begging for better creative because their TikTok ads have a lower ROAS this week, and they're desperate for different creative out there. Right? So I just think it's a watershed moment for creative because of the creator economy because of the rise of social media. And, specifically, for video, because now social media marketing has turned into 70 to 80 percent video marketing. Really? It's all video now. So you're as in demand as ever. it's easier to sell than ever. This is the time. This is the moment to build this if you can open your mind. the my job, and this is a marketing thing for me, is to is that they often don't see like, They filmmakers, designer. I mostly work with filmmakers like video pros, videographers. They don't see that. They don't see that potential, really. Like, they don't see it yet. My job is to help them see the opportunity because they don't understand the opportunity. It's not like shooting fish in a barrel, but it's almost like feeding a hungry person a sandwich. And like that is not a difficult thing to sell if you know what you're doing and you know how to generate those leads. I think it's a great time to be building a creative business, but they have to stop looking at themselves as starving artists. That's the struggle. That's the struggle. Most artists look at themselves like non for profits, and that's the problem. You know? Like, I do this because it's important.

Jonathan Green: but that's not necessarily true. There's a whole economy out there that has 1,000,000,000 of dollars just waiting to pay you. And moving into a recession, it's actually even better. It's even better opportunity. honestly. I work with a lot of writers, and it's very similar. Like, some Totally. They come to me and they go, listen. I'm gonna write a children's book, an erotic novel, a book of poetry and a book about space. I was like, well, the same people aren't gonna read all those. Right? And you're already, like, you know anyone who sees your, like, author bio is gonna go, well, this doesn't make sense. And they there is this sometimes people come here, like, I would only publish a book with additional publisher. And I'm like, how long have you been waiting, like, 10 years? I was like, how much longer are you gonna wait? Right? Like, they once they've to this rule in their mind. I would never directly publish. I don't want people to find my book and less. I've never I've read tens of thousands of book. I've never looked at the back of the book to see who the publisher was before I bought it. it's never crossed my mind. Like, oh, this is with DoubleTree. I'm not reading one of their books. Right? It's gotta be with, I don't know, why, whatever. I can't even think of another why, whatever. And then that's But we create these artificial rules or oh, I would never write something for hire because I'm too good for that. And it's like -- Also just a lot of advice out there. Like, there's just a lot of people. I'm on so many sales calls where people are like, I heard that I should be doing this.

Matt Johnston: you know, like, as a tactic to fix their problem. There's just so much advice out there, and it's mostly garbage.

Jonathan Green: Yeah. There's all these people it's more common in screenwriting. It's really bad. It looks like script coaches. How many movies have you written? No. I don't write movies. I coach writing movies as well. I see a lot of that or you have to pay someone a bunch to read your script, and I get that. Like, people I don't read books anymore now unless someone's paying me. But I've also written 300 bestsellers. Like, you can see them. I've linked a dozens of them. I have that. I think it's so important. And I go, if you don't like the style of book, I write, don't hire me. Like, you need to know who you're working with, but there is this flood of advice. And people never ask the second question. Who is the person getting advice from? It's like when you get the advice, should never start a business. Like, how many businesses have you started? None? because I know it's a bad idea, but then you haven't done it. They Because they're desperate to solve the problem. And that's a great position to be in to sell to those people, of course.

Matt Johnston: But that makes it that that's also breeded, like, an enormous amount of skepticism because lots of people spend a lot of money on things that won't get them results because it's all marketing and nothing else. Right? So we we which is why we would all just be better off if people that couldn't coach didn't start coaching businesses. So

Jonathan Green: Maybe that's where we come back to. I guess that's kinda what I was getting to at the very beginning. There's so many people that say their coaches, and then you can't figure out and it's hard when you're just a consumer. Right? And you're just talking to someone on the phone or you just saw someone's website to really tell someone who knows what they're doing is from someone who doesn't. And, like, my job when I'm recommending people, right, or choosing people to interview, like, I can tell someone's because I've been around long enough. I have a sniff test that the average consumer doesn't. But there are certain markets where I can't. And so I don't talk about those markets. I'm not very good at investing or turning silver and gold and, like, those markets, I wouldn't be able to tell someone who's kind of bsing about gold. I just wouldn't because I don't know a lot about it. But coaching and course creation, that is my area of expertise. So That's something that most the average consumer can't. And so how can someone who's thinking about hiring a coach? What are the things they should ask or the sniff test they should operate? Or what are signs, they show, oh, this person's okay or this is not someone I should hire coaching from. Like, what should they look for from the consumer side? That's a really good question.

Matt Johnston: I've never really thought about that before. If we're just being honest here, I mean, you obviously wanna look for results. So that's the biggest thing is social proof. So have they solved like, is there a track record of helping people solve that exact problem? This, of course, creates a chicken and egg problem for new coaches. because they don't have any results, but they might be very good, and that's just what it is. There are, of course, ways to get those sort of results that you can put places where you don't have to get your 1st coaching client to do it. But so that's the first thing. Have other people that have had my problem gotten that problem solved directly through this. So that's probably a question that I would ask. Probably, I think it's important to know what kind of coaching you're going to get. I think that every so I often ask this question when I'm joint when I've joined programs in the past, I never get this question, but I should, probably. So I'm joining a group coaching program. Right? Okay. Or I'm joining a mastermind. What kind of coaching am I going to get? know, is it going to be personalized coaching? Do I show up? And is it gonna be, like, a lecture that I go to? Am I gonna actually get questions answered directly from that coach? How much time are they gonna spend with me? That kind of thing. That's probably a question that you should ask because the best results come from the direct interaction with the mentor so you should probably know what kind of line you have to the mentor. You obviously kind of an expectation of completely personalized coaching because if you wanted to pay that rate, there's probably a way you can pay four times what you're paying now to get one on one coaching. But from a group coaching aspect, it's good it's good to know. Like, for example, like, I've been in coaching programs where, like, it's a lecture. Right? And that's mostly what it is. Like, it's a lecture and then the there's community interaction in the group. Right? I run mine differently. Like, I run sort of more, like, individual personalized coaching sessions within the group so that people can hear me solve people's individual problems, and they can learn from that. But so they get 1 on 1, like, customized advice, but they just get it in front of the group. But they do get my, like, direct time and attention. I feel like that's the best that's, like, the best way you could possibly do it. The only issue with that, of course, It's hard it's harder to do at scale, but, you know, that's another business question. But you can probably run that up to a pretty good amount of students, which is why you have to charge more. If you've got if you're charging $300 a month or sorry. $300 flat out or even a $1000 or even $2000, it's just not gonna work out for you. So that's the next question I would ask, I guess. Those are the only things that come to my mind right now about what I should ask to really know what you're gonna get Because ultimately, as you say, all you really care about is solving the problem. Like, you just wanna knock it out of the park. I join this coaching program. I knock it out of the park. If it's a business coaching program, I need to get the promise. Right? So, like, my lower tier coaching programs, it's like, $10,000 a month doing video work. Right?

Jonathan Green: I'm gonna get you there. Join me. I'm gonna get you there. That's all you should care about. You shouldn't really care about anything else. Can I get you that result? For the higher tier, it's 3 x ing their business, right, to ideally 6 figures a month. Can I get you there? Can I not get you there? What is it? It's all about that promise. I think he brought up a couple of really good things there. Reminds me of had this friend in my mid twenties. He's like, Whenever a girl says she wants to be a boyfriend girlfriend, I always go, well, what does that mean? And I learned from that everyone has a different definition. because and I didn't realize until that moment. And the same thing here is, like, everyone's definition of coaching is totally different. Like, to me, if I was in a program where the only coaching was talking to each other in Facebook group, I would be like, this isn't coaching. Right? Like so I think it is an important question because and some people want that and some people don't, and it it's so important to realize that everyone's definition of coaching is different because I've seen coaching programs where you can email in your questions. And then once a month live, he answers the questions on a live stream. I was like, that's like a mail bag. Right? Yeah. I wouldn't want that. That's like a podcast episode when you run out of content. And that's kind of what people were you know, people enjoyed that program. So you never know. I think that's really important is to understand, like, exactly what's the beginning and the endpoints? because I think about the questions that drive me crazy when I'm trying to sell coaching. Like, my work my the one that drives me crazy is, like, can I speak to other coaching clients? Every time I've ever let someone do that, I've regretted it. Oh, I always say no. You have to say no. I know. It's the ultimate the best lesson I could give you is I've never had someone I let talk to a previous client. I've never had a good experience with that. I've always regretted it. because what happens is if it's a really big client, if they're like and I'm talking more than $30,000. This was a client, and they were the deal we were talking about. I let him speak to a previous client. And then as soon as I go, well, can I speak to another previous client? I was like, you know what? it's never gonna stop. I was like, what if I let you speak to a hundred people collection? You can ask for a 101. I said, this is a different game. I said, if you just want a photocopy of my client book, that's a different conversation. this sounds like is happening here. And so I just learned, unfortunately, the hard way, which she told me before this happened. But whenever people ask for that, it's not real. Right? They're asking a question that's -- No. It's just an objection. It's like wolf of Wall Street. Right? Like, every objection is the same objection.

Matt Johnston: Yep. I don't well, I don't trust some something. You know? I'm not there in some way. Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a pretty easy one to counter, honestly. I just say, I just say and this is true, by the way. I have successful students. I don't want them talking to people. Like, it's not gonna help. not gonna help them. It's not gonna help me. It's not gonna help anybody. But I just say that, listen. Like, I like, this is not part of the deal when students sign up my program. They're not signing up to be sales reps for my program. If you invest in this and become my student, I wouldn't ask you to do that either. It's just not part of the deal. You're here to learn and get the results, and that's it not be an ambassador for the program. Right? so I don't do that by policy. You know? And if they have a problem with that, that's not the reason that they don't die. There's something else going on behind the scenes. that you're not that either you need to counter

Jonathan Green: or they're just not gonna buy and you're spending time trying to close the unclosable, which is a waste of time. Yeah. So what are other for you, what's another, like, red flag question that when you're talking to someone and they wanna hire you as you go, oh, I'm this is, like, gives me a bad feeling about this person. I don't wanna work with them. I mean, usually,

Matt Johnston: it's hard. Like, I would say the biggest red flag one is, like, When someone tries to act like they've already got it all figured out and they just need a tiny tweak to get there, which is never the case, but it's about the mindset that they're in because I want because if they're not really committed, then they're not gonna they're not gonna buy plus, or if somehow by the grace of whatever, I'm able to convince them to buy, they won't get results because they won't do the work. So I always get a red flag when people come in, skeptical and snotty. Like, they're just coming in, like, Hell, listen. I've already got this mostly figured out. I've been able to do this. I've been able to do this. I've been able to do this. I've been able to do this. And, you know, I'm just trying to struggle on this with this one small thing. I think I'm doing pretty good. I think I'm doing pretty good. Now it doesn't necessarily mean that's a bad thing. A lot of times, you just need to put those people in their place and just clearly investigate. Be like, okay. So tell me more about this. What have you been actually doing? Right? And what is the goal you want, and then you create the gap. Right? Like, where do you feel like you can reach that alone? And why why or why not. Right? And then a lot of times, they'll back down there, and they'll be like, oh, he caught me in a lie. And so that's a good thing. because then they'll know that I'll be a good coach because I've caught them in the lie. Never let people lie on sales calls. if you can figure out how to do it. If you can figure out when they're lying, they're usually lying if they've they're being confident like that. So that's a red flag. If they just don't back down from it then, it's just like a it's just like a total red flag. Like, why are you even on the phone? They're probably a tire kicker. you know, like somebody who doesn't is just gonna waste just gonna waste your time and energy and effort and you don't wanna deal with it. I would say that's the biggest red flag. All the red flags, by the way, come through in the first 10 minutes. So if you can get really good at spotting those, you don't have to waste your time as much. if you've gotten through 40, 45 minutes and you're like, oh, the red flag is they don't have any money.

Jonathan Green: That's more like you need to be better at objection handling because that's probably a sales thing. They're not sold on a piece of it. So you gotta figure out where that piece is. I think that's some a lot of really good advice for people that think about hiring coach and people think about becoming a coach, people realizing they shouldn't be a coach. And This is really awesome. So where can people, Matt, find out more about what you're doing, especially if they're creatives, where can they spend more time, learning about what you're doing, learning about high ticket coaching, learn about the world in which you dwell and hang out with you online. I think it'd be good just to go to my site, mattjohnstononline.com, find out everything about me. But get my book, and we can talk if you feel like I can help. So I'll make sure to put that in the show notes and below the video on YouTube so people can find it easily. with the clickable link. Thank you so much for being here. This has been very informative, and I appreciate you giving us so much of your time today. Absolutely, man. Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to today's episode. Starting your blog is an amazing step. Now it's time to get your first 100 raving fans as quickly as possible. let me show you the shortcut to this milestone with my free guide at servemaster.comforward/100. That's forward slash 100.

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