It's 9.30 in the morning. I am at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and tonight at this very spot. This museum will be full of celebrities attending the Met Gala. I mean already at this early hour the museum is full of tents and cops and bystanders already lining the barricades, staking out a good spot so they can see celebrities later. And the internet tonight will be plastic pictures of very glamorous people wearing all manner of outrageous outfits.
But the thing that's really interesting to me is that people will not only be commenting on designers and on celebrities, they'll also be talking about STYLists. There's this widespread acknowledgement that like, oh celebrities don't always dress themselves. And you'd think this would be like a dirty secret. But you know Robert Downey Jr. even thanked his stylist in his Oscar speech. I'm gonna thank my stylist in case no one else does. Thanks, Erica. Thank you very much.
And many stylists have become celebrities in their own right. They give interview, they offer styling tips. Many of them are like designing diffusion lines. And so I was wondering what was up with this. Where did all these celebrity stylists come from? How did this become a job and how did this become so readily acceptable? So I brought this question to one of my favorite podcasts called The Coder Ring and it's made by Slate.
And host Willa Paskin and I dove in to try to figure out the answer. So I thought I'd share it today in honor of the Metcala. Okay, I'm gonna go into the press preview now. This is Dakota Ring. I'm Willa Paskin. Like a manager, or an agent, or a publicist, a stylist has become a kind of must have accessory for well-dressed a-list celebrities. It's just expected to have hired someone to select the clothes they wear at all of their public appearances. But this was not always the case.
In today's episode, every truffleman will guide us through the collapse of a certain kind of Hollywood glamour into the rise of a growing, financially rewarding relationship between fashion designers and celebrity culture. And then onto the explosion in red carpet events, patrolled by fashion police that all helped create this new occupation. So today, on Dakota Ring, how did stylist become a job? So, Avery, where does the story of the stylist begin?
So the story of the stylist starts before the stylist was really like a twinkle in anyone's eye. We're talking about like the turn of the last century through the 1920s. And then, the fashion meant Paris. Like fancy designer clothes all just came from Paris. These handmade hand-sown garments that most Americans would probably never be able to see in person. I mean, these were gowns by Coco Chanel and Christian Dior. And they were absurdly expensive. They were one of a kind.
And so in the early days of Hollywood, when the movies were silent, everybody on screen would be wearing these exciting exotic elite clothes. And this is why everyone went to the movies. I talked to this extremely iconic fashion reporter, Terry Agons. She founded the Fashion Beat at the Wall Street Journal. She's a hero of mine. And she told me that cinema was the main way that Americans got to experience fashion.
You went to see fancy furs and incredible wardrobes. And that's when you get to see all the new different styles. Even though they didn't necessarily know who the designers were, they knew that the clothes came from Paris. And it was a selling point. Like, check it out. We have the latest fashions from France. This was sort of the way it was that Hollywood was more or less interwoven with the French fashion system until 1929.
What had happened in Paris was they had come out with a new look of clothes. The hemlines were lower. And it was a complete different silhouette. All the French fashion designers were shifting away from this like carefree flapper style. And it left the studios who had already shot footage for movies with these like short flapper dresses in the lurch. You know, their movies are slated to come out. And suddenly they looked outdated. Like they weren't offering the latest in French fashion anymore.
And it was like, oh man, movie goers were paying 25 cents to be entertained with the latest. And they were not seeing the latest. They were seeing clothes that were dated. Well, the movie studios like, oh my god, what are we going to do? And so they just figured out, okay, we are no longer using Paris couture in the movies. We are now going to establish Hollywood and not Paris as a fashion capital of the world. So Hollywood, Sever's It's Ties with Paris, Paris couture was more or less banned.
You know, they were like, we do not abide by this system anymore. We will not follow the seasons. We will not follow the trends because it's not a good investment. You know, you never know. You never know when these designers are playing it again. Yeah, exactly. We're not going to get played again. And so they all pretty much turned to their in-house costumers who are really talented. And they're like, okay, now you make the clothes.
And so in the beginning of the 30s, the costume departments in the studio start creating this very, like, safe, timeless style for their actors. And it totally works. And you can close your eyes and you can imagine it. It's like slinky satin gowns and elegant three-piece suits. And we now call this Hollywood style. You're like, even now on red carpets, they'll be like, she looks so old Hollywood.
Usually when someone is wearing exactly what you just described, sort of like close-fitting some art deco detailing. And that is coming from the 1930s when the movies are actually also starting to talk. Exactly. So the movies are talking, they're wearing this, like, pretty consistent style. And now we are solidly in the era of the studio system. Last and imaginative plants, the studios create for millions, another world, a world of incomparable magic and faith-belief.
So each studio is basically like a self-contained factory and it contains all the parts it needs to make the movies. So you have set designers, you have directors, you have a makeup artist, and you have costume designers all working continuously to turn out movies on behalf of the different studios. So actors are actually on contract, it's like a whole system.
Yeah, exactly. And so this means that like, because the actors are there in-house and the costumers are there in-house, the costumers can craft very consistent looks for actors across all their movies. The one thing about these costume designers in the studios, these people were really good at what they did. These clothes were, they were engineered for each particular actress. And if the actress had like a flat fanny or if she didn't have boobs, they would pad things.
So these designers were really, really clever and deft and just understood how to make an actress look good. So take Joan Crawford, for example. Her whole persona in all of her films was that she was really tough. Get out, get your things out of here before I throw them into the street and you with them. Get out before I kill you. Part of that was you always saw her wearing these huge shoulder pads. And that look was designed for her by the costume designer at MGM. His name was Gilbert Adrian.
When Adrian put her in those strong shoulder pads and that really strong look, that really did resonate with a lot of women. Because they're like, wow, you know, Joan Crawford, you know, she's really a badass. It makes sense that the costume designers would be designing costumes for movies. That's their job. But the thing that was so interesting about this moment is they're also designing clothes for the celebrities to wear not on screen.
I mean, this was a time sort of famously when the studios were in the business of crafting every single part of any celebrity's life. Yes, they'd be like, your name will be Rita Hayworth. And we will make you sexy, but in an approachable way. And you know, they sort of like create these... The whole persona. They give you a romantic part or they give you a whole story. Exactly. And so part of that is then... Well, dress you. Exactly.
They were so invested in fully crafting their entire persona that they clothed them for almost everything they needed. Going out to dinner at premieres, just living their lives, even their wedding dresses. A wedding of two Hollywood film stars, Dick Powell and Joan Blondell. And what a happy day for the couple. And so some of the house costumers got, like as famous arguably as some of these French designers. For example, like, eat a head. Right.
It was a costumer at Paramount and she became really famous in her own right. And she's so famous she's in the Incredibles. This is a hobo suddall. You can't be seen in this. That's what the law is. I mean, Edna Mode is like supposed to be, to that. Exactly. So Hollywood is totally separate from French fashion to make sure that their movies don't fall out of style. But the feeling is also mutual. Like, French fashion does not want to be in the movies.
There was a moment when Coco Chanel came to Hollywood in the 30s and she was like, she couldn't hack it, she left. Dior would dress like a few sort of high-end celebrities like Marlena Dutrick. But by and large, like his fancy upper-crust French clients did not want him dressing movie actors. I mean, this was considered very popular. Movies are like very popular. Yes. Yes. And that is not high-end couture fashion.
So French fashion does not like Hollywood and Hollywood does not like French fashion. And Hollywood is instead doing this thing called Hollywood style, which is being made by costume designers. And they are doing it everywhere on screen, off screen. Yeah, and they keep doing that until everything falls apart. Can you imagine meeting the love of your life by only the sound of their voice? Radio Topia has a reality show dating podcast called Hang Up.
And it's kind of like a queer cross between the bachelor and love is blind and it's a blast. Hang Up's tagline is no rings attached and it's a refreshing focus on dating and connection rather than marriage. Here's a little clip about their current season. Our star Timo is 41 years old and recently divorced. I haven't been on a single date in 18 months. But now, they're looking for someone special. And like really hot, really hot, really hot public.
So we set them up with six collars to date exclusively over the phone. I feel like I could talk to you for hours. On Hang Up, you get to eavesdrop on a number of phone dates. And then there's a series of eliminations. And in the end, there's a twist. The new season is out now. So stay in the line. Subscribe to Hang Up today on your favorite podcast platform. And then the studio system fell apart. Donald Patrick?
of actors on contract, they no longer have directors on contract, everyone's sort of becoming freelance, including of course the costume designers. Right. And because everyone is a freelancer now, the stars are kind of on their own, and they have to begin to fend for themselves. Kind of for the first time in Hollywood history, which means that the stars have to go shopping. And since they'd never had to shop, they weren't very good at it, frankly.
This is Dana Thomas, author of many excellent fashion books, including Deluxe, How Luxury Lost Its Luster. And I spoke with her about this very particular moment when suddenly movie stars have to try to figure out what to wear. Because they had been dressed by the studios for so long, they had a certain style that had been developed for them, but that didn't necessarily mean that they had innate style.
And suddenly you saw like, wow, Barb Streisand isn't looking as fabulous as she did in the early 60s. You know, she was just kind of showing up in pantsuits. Generally in the 60s and 70s, it's a more casual period. People are dressed down. And even on screen, the stories are not about like the glamorous lives of the rich and famous. The stories are more about normal people who are dressed normally. You talking to me? La-di-da, la-di-da, la-la.
And stars are like, they're even buying outfits from like normal department stores. Like you could see a celebrity at SACS, getting something that they might wear to the Oscars. While it was lovely to see people looking like themselves rather than what Hollywood machine had crafted it, it should be their public image. It was also sometimes so casual that you were like, could we make a little bit more of an effort? This is supposed to be a nice event.
By the 1980s, Hollywood was starting to agree with Dana. Casual was going out of style. We're talking Coke, Gordon Gekko, money, Wall Street, Reagan. Like it's like, glamorous back, baby. Like big shoulders, gowns, like a lot of money. Like money is back. Money is back. Riffing and money. But the stars are still on their own. LAUGHTER And basically on their own, they started to make some unfortunate decisions. And that's when we had real fashion horrors on the red carpet.
Tonight, it's the 61st annual Academy Awards. I remember watching Oscars were hilarious. That's Terry Agons again, because you'd see all these celebrities in just, they would come up with anything. Ladies and gentlemen, Devilmore and Bruce Willis. Demi Moore, Demi Moore, wore bike shorts to the Oscars. And everybody was laughing like crazy. Like, how could she wear something like that? You saw all kind of weird get-ups. Miss Kim Basinger. Kim Basinger wore this dress that she designed herself.
That's like half long sleeve, half shorts. Like, is that avant-garde or just terrible? Like, do you know what's happening? Jodie Foster in 1989, when she won an Oscar for the accused. This is such a big deal. And my life was so simple. She's wearing this powder blue dress with a big bow in the back. I mean, she looks like a baby doll. It's not very sophisticated. I mean, it was like a bad prom bridesmaid's dress.
It just, you just sort of, I remember watching those Oscars and you just were like, what is she wearing? Thank you so much. Jodie Foster was very insulted by all of the hate that her cream puff blue prom dress got, because she picked it out herself in Milan. And she thought it was really beautiful. And I think it was this very vulnerable thing for stars to like show their true tastes and to get completely raked over the coals.
I think that most of us equate celebrities with having a lot of style. But they're just ordinary people like the rest of us. And a lot of them may look good because they were wardrobe to a certain way for a movie. But they don't really have any innate style. So they needed somebody to help them out. And someone would come to help them out. This new upcoming designer named George O. Armani. Hurt of them? Yeah. OK.
So now we think of George O. Armani as like this up there with Dior and Chanel as this kind of like classic brand. But at the time, he was really separate. So Armani was this young upstart. He was not based in France. He was based out of Milan. And his style was also totally different. When you think about the 80s had all these like big structured power suits. He was making these suits that were very loose. They were made of linen. They were breathable. They were in earth tones.
They weren't like black and shiny. They have a glamor. They have an Alon. And everybody looked good in his clothes. But Armani was really small. You could only buy his clothes at Barney's in New York. But this small group of people in Hollywood were like catching on to this niche little known designer. And they were mostly people who were not on camera. There were a lot of powerful agents and directors. And one of these fans was John Travolta's manager, this guy, Bob Lamond.
And Travolta was hired by director Paul Schrader to play in this new movie called America Jiglo. And Lamond said, you know, you should get that character to wear these suits. These George O. Armani suits. If he's supposed to be a Jiglo, and he's supposed to look great, hot, and sexy, and modern and fabulous, he should be wearing Armani suits. And then Travolta met with Armani. Went to Malani, did fittings all this, and then he dropped out of the movie to go make Urban Cowboy.
And Schrader hired this unknown actor named Richard Gear, and Richard then put on the Armani suits and looked like a million bucks. Often in these big hotels, you run into women from foreign countries who may need a translator or a guy. And they hire you? Yes. MUSIC Armani sees sales skyrocket when this movie comes out. And so they're like, OK, this Hollywood thing. It's doing well for us. And so then they went on to clothe the cast of the Untouchables. Again, sales go up.
He's just seeing this rocket-like connection between his clothes and the movies. This was the first time anybody had sort of sowed the two together and realized that this was a marketing platform. So Armani has discovered the power of celebrity in a way that nobody else really had yet. Like, Chanel and Dior were still refusing to dress celebrities. The one notable example was that like, Audrey Hepburn was dressed by Javanshi. But that's like the exception that proves the rule.
This was not something that established designers did, except Armani decides to like make this his whole thing. He decides to go all in. He's like, all right, Hollywood will be the way to establish my brand. So he hired this fabulous woman named Wanda McDaniel, who had been a journalist working at the Harold Examiner, covering celebrities. George Armani hired her and said, I'm giving you one thing to do.
And that is to dress these celebrities who really need help and who could look so much better. And so who does she call? But Jody Foster and it's like, hey, I know you got a lot of shit for this. For the two to dress. Let me take care of it. Let Armani dress you. Come by, we'll hook you up. And she said, oh, God, please take this burden off my shoulders. I, yes, for the rest of my life, please just help, help, help. Wanda McDaniel starts calling everybody. Do you want us to take care of you?
Come into our warm and brave, like we got you. So the next year, George Armani dressed about four or five of the top actresses. And when they walked on the red carpet in these long pure spare columns in very solid colors that were just the right color for each woman with some sparkle, but not too much sparkle. Their hair beautiful, but not overly formal. They looked just beautiful. And suddenly everyone was Gaga. And that was the moment. Women's Wear Daily did this headline.
And they called the Oscars the Armani Awards. Because in 91, every celebrity who was worse something was wearing Armani, men and women, didn't care, you know, Schwarzenegger, Glenn Close, the whole gang. And so Armani just starts getting a lot of attention, but he's crafting these celebrities to look so elegant and stately and one by one. Celebrities are starting to ask to be styled by Armani. They start to shop at the Armani store. And it was directly, again, impacting sales.
And then a light bulb went on. Every designer said, we're not going to lend Armani like half as to himself. So they all decided that they needed to get into the game. And so all these designers start inviting celebrities into their VIP rooms, inviting them to their salons, inviting them into their boutiques for a glass of champagne. And increasingly, celebrities are going because they need more and more clothes.
Where at the beginning of this period, where you're starting to have this whole explosion of media, MTV, In-Stow Magazine, you saw celebrities in full length shots, you saw them on the town, you saw them at behind the Velvet Rope, at movie premieres, you saw them inside their fabulous homes, and of course at the award shows. There is no better way to bring in the New Year than with a huge, little glamorous award show like the 54th annual Golden Globe.
And hello, everybody, I am Joan Rivers and we are live. OK, Melissa, who have you got fan now? Mom, I am here with Kelsey Grammer. What are my favorites? By the late 90s, the red carpet is being televised. It's become as big as the awards themselves. Because we changed it. We turned walking into a building into an event. So we actually got to talk to Melissa Rivers as in Joan Rivers' daughter. She and her mom were both red carpet hosts.
They were there talking to celebrities about what designers they were wearing. You are so beautiful. Who are you wearing? Oh, Monty. Who are you wearing? I'm wearing Alberta for a... Who are you wearing? A pulse mask. Who are you wearing and who are you wearing? And by the way, and who are you wearing was asked out of desperation. We were live and my mom... She didn't know what to ask somebody. She was like, fuck, what am I going to say?
And we're live and I run out of anything to talk to this person about. And they were in a beautiful dress. So she said, instead of what are you wearing, she said, who are you wearing? And that's how that started. So now we are solidly in the who are you wearing, Aira? And celebrities and designers are fully interwoven. Every outfit is being scrutinized. Everyone knows who's wearing what, who designed what. And if it didn't look good, Joan and Melissa would be there to call you out on it.
I will let you. They would let you know. Cameron Diaz and she was in Dior by John Galliana. It looks like she was dressed by Martha Stewart's towel department. I think this is more effective than an IUD. I think this dress is fashion birth control. It's red dress. Looks like a blood clot. Good to wear on heavy flow days. You know what I'm saying? Jessica Abba, Valentino Oat Couture. She looks like an Atlantic City hooker who got his sewing machine from one of her johns and no lessons. I mean...
Can I roll? People could say, how could you say that? And it's so mean. And my mother used to always say, we're not saying anything different than what everyone's saying next to each other on the couch. Anyone who denies that they judge what the people are wearing is a big liar. OK, so we have a lot, a lot of events. And we have a lot of people like Joan and Melissa who are out there ready to shark bite you for every single thing that you wear. Yeah, the fashion police are patrolling.
And if you're an actor, this really matters. You don't want to be the butt of a joke. But now it's not so simple to just sign on to be in the warm embrace of our money. Now, a bunch of other designers have caught on to what our money is doing and everybody's imitating him. Other people are reaching out to celebrities and they're like, oh, let us dress you. Let us dress you. Let us dress you. And so now they're like so many more choices to be made.
The business got so huge and there's so many brands and so many options and so many collections that it became a full-time job to keep up with. I mean, these women are working women. They don't have time to go out and go to the shows and see everything and comb through all the lookbooks and make sure it's the right size. If it's not right size, get the tailor. They are get fix. Yeah, they did it. That, that, that. It's a full-time job.
So they hire the person to do it because it's a full-time job. OK, I know it sounds like this is the end. And we're like, ta-da, so the stylist was born. Roll credits. Yeah, exactly. But, but it will take a little bit longer for the stylist to become the glamorous profession we think of it as today. All right, so we are now in the era of the stylist. Kind of low-key behind-the-scenes celebrities have started asking other people to shop for them and dress them.
And like, where are these people coming from? A lot of them are actually coming from magazines because for photo shoots, you need someone to like pull all the clothes from all the designer showrooms and put them on the celebrity. And that's honestly how a lot of celebrities and stylists met, you know, they'd like style someone for a photo shoot and then the celebrity would turn to them and be like, hey, I like this look you've made. Can you do this for me all the time?
Well, look, this is the thing. Any celebrity who's somebody of note, for them to walk, I mean, going to the restaurant with a celebrity is a two to three hour endeavor because they're going to be stopped 10 times for a selfie. This is my friend, Gene Yang. She has worked as a stylist for a long time. To try on and get clothing, it's just not an easy thing for them to do because you go into a store, you are photographed, you are being tracked.
Because you now have to do press tours in 10 cities, it is an outrageous amount of looks. It's daunting. Gene started in magazines and she's been in the business since she styled Keanu Reeves for a press shoot in the 1990s and then developed a very impressive roster, including, as she says, five Batman. George Clooney, Michael Keaton, Ben Affleck, three Spider-Man, Tom Holland, Toby McGuire, and Andrew Garfield, Robert Danny Jr. Yeah, a lot of other super people.
And it's amazing she can just openly say that she styles these people because at first, this was like a dirty secret. Like no star was supposed to admit that someone dresses them. It was like supposed to be like an innate skill they had. Like they were glamorous, they're fashionable, they don't need help. These were stylish people, exactly. But then some stylists started to emerge out of the shadows and take pride in it.
The most notable example of this was Rachel Zo, she had this very distinct look. And I'll tell you some of her clients and you'll sum in the look immediately. It was like Lindsay Lohan, Nicole Richie, Paris Hilton, like every boho chic, it girl of the early Aughts. And Rachel Zo became a celebrity to the point where she even got her own TV show. I'm Rachel Zo and I'm a stylist. I find the dresses, the jewelry, then I put it all together and create the ultimate red carpet moment.
And this like brings us back to where we started. Yes, exactly the stylist of celebrity. His job is to carefully craft the visual image of his clients and his career is exploding as a result. So there's the glamour of being a celebrity stylist, but then there's also the job itself. And I was curious about what that actually is. So I asked Gene Yang, there's so many things involved in the practicalities of dealing with this job that people have no concept of. It's a business.
If you think it's just about style, you are sorely mistaken. Like what are the actual, what do you think you spend most of the time doing? I'd say three quarters of the job is schlepping. It is, it's schlepping. So just like starting from the beginning, let's say celebrity reaches out to you, says like, Hey, Gene, I'd really like to work with you. What happens then? So typically it's actually a publicist who will reach out to you. Okay. And we'll say, look, this person has this going on.
I would go online and I would research everything that that person had ever worn. And I would see what worked, what didn't work. Most of the people I work with are very busy. They only want me to bring the things that I think would be right for them. And Gene told me that going to showrooms and pulling options that would be right for them is really not as easy as it sounds. People just think we go into the showrooms and have clothing and we can get anything.
It's like, no. What you typically do is you have to have the showroom say, okay, it's for so and so, sure, no problem. Of the five things I pulled, they'll say, ooh, we're so sorry, we only want this for red carpet. Oh, this is only for a award show. And then you maybe only get two of those items. Oh. Sometimes you beg and say, oh, please, I promise you, this will be a big moment. Here, please, if it would please the court.
And then there's like an additional stuff because her clients actually they have to like it themselves. Yeah, I asked about that. Well, I wonder how you kind of get to that point of discovering what they want. It is done in a very baby step manner. Maybe a guy has always been wearing a pair of trainers and track pants and a t-shirt and they want to up their look. Well, you can immediately jump into a gorgeous, wrap around Jojen peach suit.
It is really talking and finding out what they want and then trying it on and then looking at the eyes. Looking at the corners of their mouths, are they feeling comfortable? But when I look at the client as a stylist, it's your job to see what looks good and to feel if they're going to feel comfortable in front of 100 cameras. And they're not just in front of cameras during a ward season. It's constant. Yeah, totally.
And when celebrities are going on a multi-city press tour, Jeanne's job is literally to pack their bags for them. I'm like, OK, well, you're going to be in the middle of Russia or you're going to be in the middle of Ireland for this premiere. It's going to be negative 20. So I really recommend that we do this coat and with this, you have to have all that. Oh, right. You have to look at the weather. Yep, weather. And you have to sit there and go, look, you need socks, shoes, bras, cufflinks.
I would literally have a checkoff list for my assistants when we were packing. It was like, were the seams opened, were the white stitches taken out of the jacket? Do we have the pocket open for the pocket square? Is there double stick tape? Is there cufflinks? Is there socks for each outfit? It sounds like such a difficult, stressful job. Was it actually fun? Oh, look, it is fun. But it's like a meal.
When you get to have that delicious meal, if you don't realize that there were hours and hours upon preparation from the person who tilled the soil to the sous chef and the prep people who put that together, then you don't begin to even comprehend what is involved in that beautiful outfit on the red carpet. Now, what's going on behind the scenes on the red carpet outfits is so leveled up. There's a lot of paperwork now behind the scenes.
So many celebrities are being paid, like, anywhere from $250,000 to millions of dollars to where the clothes on the red carpet. Stars have to like sign a lot of contracts and get very specific about what designer they're wearing, how many times they say the designer's name, it's all very rigorously contracted out. I mean, what you're describing is like an industry that sort of has grown up and become just like a proper business. There's real money behind it. Yeah. Right. It functions.
And I guess what has it meant for the clothes? Well, if you ask Melissa Rivers, it's boring. That's the thing. Everybody looks the same now. Melissa Rivers says she could never revive the fashion police now because everybody is just like too polished. People have been looking a thousand times better, but that also takes the fun out of our job. You know, you miss these celebrities dressing themselves because that's when you got the mistakes.
You know, it was so much more fun because people would make their own decisions. You know, they'd be like, I love this and you're just like, oh, dear God, you know, but I feel like you and your mom were like the the threat that made people get stylists. I mean, do you feel that way? Oh my God. Totally. It's so good. I run into these stylists and they turned to me. Law wrote to literally said to me, I have my career because of you. The view guys. Sometimes I wonder if we've released the crack in.
You know, I know because is the legacy going to be well, they changed fashion as a business or is it going to be, oh, dear God, they just broke. I think that yet to be seen. I have to say though, Jean makes a very compelling defense for the rise of the stylists because she says it's not that stylists have made celebrities boring. Stylists have made regular people look more interesting.
Look at especially menswear to see an alpha male looking guy wearing a pink suit gives any guy permission to wear a colorful suit. It goes without saying that men can have these shortened pants with their ankles showing. It goes without saying that lots of men are wearing nail polish. Now the proliferation of color, the proliferation of styles, it is all permission that was given because of celebrity styling. I'd like to think. So, Avery, what do you think of the stylist?
I mean, I do think having people who know a lot about fashion and not just like what's in and what's hot, but like they know a lot of weird obscure designers, they know a lot of fashion history. By like having these people on hand dressing celebrities, I think it makes the conversation around clothing way more intellectual and interesting and people get to like learn about fashion history in that way. So, it's like elevated the conversation around clothing in this way that I of course love.
No, I see that. I think that there's like a little bit of a trade-off because I also sort of recognize the kind of claustrophobic tastefulness that all the servers are talking about. We're just like everyone looks pretty good. It's almost like the floor has been raised. And I think that's kind of to be expected. Like when a profession has been professionalized, you're going to see more competence, you're going to see more polish.
And you might lose a little something in whackiness, and like if the stylist is bad, you know, maybe it's pretty bland. Yeah, but conversely, if the stylist is good, then you do get some whackiness, you do get some risk. You know, like good fashion doesn't mean boring fashion. No, that is totally true. And I think also we've learned like if you were an outfit that everyone hates, now at least you can just always like blame your stylist. That was an episode of Dakota Ring from Slate.
It was produced by me, Avery Truffleman, and Evan Chung, who produces Dakota Ring with Will Paskin, Katie Shepherd, and Max Friedman. Derek John is the executive producer. Merit Jacob is the senior technical director. Thanks for having me, y'all. It was really fun. Only one more episode I'm going to make this year. It will be out later this month, and then I'm going to disappear and go and book leave. Thanks for listening. Radio Tapio. From PRX. Thanks for inviting me aleyhub.