With Ben and Elisa Haake

[00:00:00] About five years ago had an emotional awakening. But for the first eight years of our marriage, we always wondered why other people fought. We never fought, but long story short, it came to the point that I realized I just suppressed my emotions all the time. It was it was easier to me to just say I'm sorry, or she would eventually say she's sorry and just lay down. But learning how I was wired after taking enneagram, I'm like, oh, okay, that makes sense. [00:00:30] Hello and welcome to the Artist Spouting podcast. Thank you for taking the time to listen to the show. Today we have our good friends Ben and Elisa Hockey are on the show with us. We've known Ben and Elisa for several years now and have been eyewitnesses to watching their marriage relationship flourish. They were actually the first couple that we did coaching with using Indigram as a discovery tool. [00:00:51] It has been awesome to watch their marriage work of art continues to hold. Yes, Ben is a fulltime worship pastor at Christ Fellowship Church, and Elisa is also a great worship leader as well as a vocal coach. And a fun little fact. Both of them are super host with airbnb. I love it. [00:01:09] We are thankful they have agreed to process their relationship dynamic in light of the enneagram. If you're unfamiliar with any of them, it is a tool of empathy and learning. This model of the personality fosters growth in self awareness, spouse awareness, and couple awareness in marriage. Any grant provides an opportunity to identify patterns in the way your spouse responds and behaves and positions you to shift interactions within your everyday life, increasing strength and reducing ways you may inadvertently weaken your relationship. So if you are unfamiliar with the enneagram, we encourage you to go back and listen to season one, episode eight, where Lisa gives an overview of the components of the enneagram. [00:01:46] But before we jump into our conversation today, we want you to hear about a powerful experience that we believe will take your marriage from good to great. If you're looking for that one thing that could be the game changer of your relationship, then the Marriage Reboot Retreat is just for you. If you want a greater connection with your spouse, if you are tired of feeling stuck in the same old, same old, if you desire to feel the thrill of fun and discovery again like you did when you first met, we can help. We support couples to reconnect, recharge and reengage to pursue their life purpose together. The Marriage Reboot Retreat by Marriott for a Purpose is a private, intensive experience for you and your spouse, working exclusively with Lisa and I for two consecutive full days. [00:02:26] At the end of the two days, you will walk away with a unified purpose for your marriage and the holistic vision for your marriage and family, supported with a real action plan. If you would like to find out more information about the marriage reboot retreat, you can set up a discovery call with James and I and we will tell you more about it. The link is in the show notes or you can direct message us on instagram at artistposing and we will send you a link to schedule a discovery call. Ben Alisa, it is so great to have you on the podcast. We've been friends for a long time and it's just been awesome to watch what God has done in your marriage and the influence that you have in so many. [00:03:01] So thank you so much for being on the Artist spousing podcast today. Yeah, absolutely. We're so honored to get to sit and talk with you guys. Yeah, lots of years. It's been a long journey. [00:03:11] You guys have had a pretty impactful part on our marriage and us personally, so we're excited to get to talk with you. Love you guys. Awesome. So to get us kicked off, can you just share a little bit of your marriage journey? What's got you to where you are today? [00:03:24] Our marriage journey. Our marriage journey started with me asking Lisa out on a double date, but she didn't think that we were on a date because I didn't pay any attention to her and I just wanted to. The only questions he asked me on the date, let's just clarify, was if I wanted water or if we were going to see John Mayer. Super fun, but opened my door, but literally just if I needed anything, if I was hungry or wanted food, that. Was a purely managed. [00:03:57] Big casanova. Long story short, three breakups later, me always having peace and her family basically. I think the third breakup was my family breaking up with us. They were kind of like not a huge fan of them for me, but in the end he won them over. So twelve years later and two kids. [00:04:17] Later, totally her brother being a friend of mine, telling her, why would you date somebody you're never going to marry? And 18 months of hearing he's not the one for you, and just riding through all of that and then somehow, Jesus, you put it together. Put it together. That is awesome. That's what we have to do with some of our types. [00:04:42] Maybe. I don't know. I'm an h. So they thought I was going to marry the really out there, go getter, which I did, but it just looked totally different. I love, love it. [00:04:55] It I well, I actually do believe this is a great way to start. Married life isn't always easy and what you guys have had to overcome and that there's probably more people who've had to deal with that, of like how our family is receiving and accepting and then coming on the other side of it so important because that would definitely cause a little bit of tension in early relationship and married life, for sure. I think they might be over me? I don't know. [00:05:25] Well, great. Segue into any grand types, what you identify with. So I'd love to hear from Alicia. You already mentioned you're an eight, but I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. So your neighbor type, how you resonate with it and maybe what really like, oh, it's totally me and this is why. [00:05:42] And then maybe how you felt when you first heard that and got the language around being an enneagram eight. That was fun. We actually ended up taking the test with you, Lisa, so that's how we found out what we were. I don't know if I would have when I originally started looking into any of them, I thought maybe I was going to be a one because of that strong perfectionist side. But when I took the test and found out, it kind of was shocking and yet not all at the same time. [00:06:13] And it gave me a lot of context. I've worked in the church since I was 19 in different roles, so over 20 years now in ministry and being a female h working on staff and churches, I think people never guess that I would be an eight because of how I guess I couch myself when I have a bit of two in my tricep and some things stopping it out. But I had to shift my aggressiveness because of where I was working in churches. Me coming off as an aggressive female and the church wouldn't have been taken as well as maybe in the corporate world I could just be a CEO and run things and be great in corporate, but in church that was different. So we had done so many different personality types, gosh everything from strengths, finder and Myersbriggs, all those things. [00:07:03] And every time I took those this sounds terrible, but it always told me how great I was. I'm an achiever, I can do this. I can run anything and plan events and do all these things really well. I'm really great at details, but I couldn't also run fast. And when I took Anagram, it was actually the first time that I really got to look at my shadow side of who I could be and how I made people feel sometimes depending on how I approach things. [00:07:34] And so it actually was hard to swallow at first, especially in our relationship as a married couple when it came to leading teams and being with people. I feel like I have learned a lot of leadership skills along the way to be a good team player and help people feel seen and valued. But in a one on one marriage relationship, it was easier for me to bulldoze and be that real. Maybe my negative side coming out more and so it beeped over me. I think that I went into a depression for 24 hours, actually. [00:08:10] But I came out and I'm pretty sure James helped me feel like I. Was seen, hey, eight are great. That's all I say. It is interesting though, what you said there, you're kind of surprised. But then I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense, right? [00:08:29] My experience with any grand is a lot of types kind of struggle with like and for me it was like, oh, okay, it all makes sense. It explains a lot, this all makes sense. And I know other types have a struggle with the shadow side, maybe, of who they are, but for me it was like, I don't really want to be that way, but okay, this is what makes me an achiever. What kind of drives kind of that internal driving me. But yeah, we do have a tendency to be aggressive and I think you make a great point. [00:09:00] I don't know if it's in the corporate world as well, but definitely in the church world, female ates aren't celebrated as much as maybe male ates are celebrated. I do think it's interesting because in the beauty of being in church world and ministry world, that probably helps shape and tame your eightness, the rough edges of eight, because you had to modify. So whether you are actually growing because you knew you were eight and you were assertive, you were actually shaping that because you knew it wouldn't be well received. And so the beauty of that is that you actually been working on yourself a very long time for lots of different reasons. But one, it's just not allowed to behave like that in church world because it isn't so well received. [00:09:41] The other thing that you mentioned, which I think is worthy of stating, is because you're an eight. James is an eight because I've encountered both of you in work settings, relational settings. No offense, James, but Alisa is warmer than you are. So she does actually intuitively relate to people quicker and probably feels warmer to people than where you may feel cold, not cold hearted, but just not as warm personality wise. And that is her tri type coming up and try type. [00:10:10] We can it's not just because she's a female and I'm a man. It isn't because of that. Although that baby, she may have some nurturing qualities in her as a mother. But that high two, right? Her tai two, that is actually really high. [00:10:22] So in her tritype, in that heart, she is high in two of two, three and four. She's the highest in two and obviously in the body, eight, nine and one, she's an eight. But that too really softens, not to mention all the work that you've done prior to knowing any of them. And what I'd love to say, and I think it should be said, is the work of the Holy Spirit and your relationship with Jesus and your life has been what has been doing all this work, this just gives language to it. That was something that was freeing for me, is that it did give me language and I didn't feel condemned. [00:10:54] It just made me go, oh. Like, I felt like God knew my design, like it was made on purpose, as opposed to sometimes I felt like the square pagan around hole. No other females are like me. Why do you like it? And now, since I've met quite a few females that are AIDS, and some that made me actually feel confident to be myself and go, oh, I can wear this gracefully and still be a strong eight leader female and still be fully feminine while I do it. [00:11:28] And so that has been a journey. That's awesome because you see a lot of eight examples that are men that run the world and do amazing at it. So I didn't know how to do that for me. And the Holy Spirit has been amazing to help me out. Yeah. [00:11:43] Awesome. I love it. Okay, Mr. Ben, I am a type Five, wing four, and I'm going to let my eight wife talk about me as a true five, but she probably won't because this is who I am. [00:12:01] It's interesting, when I discovered that I was in the Grand Five and discovered what it was about, I felt understood for the first time. I've always maybe misunderstood why I was the way I was or could never come to decisions or never felt like I could land on any specifics. And that's just a natural design of who I am as a processor, as a researcher. I've been called the Internet most of my life because I just retain useless information. It's useful to somebody. [00:12:36] Apparently, I've found out over the years, I get asked the most random questions and oddly, have answers that I shouldn't have. If you need to know of any good coffee shops or restaurants or the new building that's going up downtown, ben probably knows it. Probably no. But I think I felt understood for the first time and found out that Castling is okay because it's how I restore and how I even when we first got married, I had to look at her and say, I need you to hear that I love you dearly, but I need to be away from you. I need to be alone. [00:13:13] It's for the betterment of our marriage that you leave me alone. And that was a hard thing to come through. Now she just gets me out of the house. You need to leave and go. It is interesting because you say, Castle up. [00:13:28] And I'd love to just explain that a little bit as fives, when pushed on. And James, you could probably give a few examples. In the work environment, when they're pushed on for answers, immediately, they need to process before they respond. And so the dynamic could be that alisa as an eight assertive pushing for answers and you don't have the answer. So if you don't respond or act as quickly as an eight could, then you're like, well, I'm going in the castle, drawing up the bridge, and there's a moat between me and you, and there's no communication happening. [00:13:56] So that castleing up is a retreat. But Fours, Five and Nines are withdrawn people, so they're just going to be withdrawn like that. And you're Five with the four wings, so you kind of got this double down effect going on a little bit. I like those words, assertive withdrawn. But sometimes if you just hear them by themselves, withdrawn feels weak or like it's not as strong as somebody who's a survey. [00:14:21] That's not the case at all. It's actually just the way that we process it's, the way that we reserve energy. It's the way that we communicate into the world. And I personally, in my world, love working with Five. A Five, when they bring information, it's going to be the right information because they have processed it. [00:14:39] That castling up piece for you, Ben, is you just need to get a loan, sort out all your thoughts on it before you give an answer. And I found early on, and I think we can talk about how this relates now in your marriage, but as an Eight who synthesizes information really quickly and can make quick decisions, if I press a Five that I'm working with to make a quick decision to give me their best, they're going to give me a decision, they're going to give me an answer. But most likely it's not going to be the best answer or the answer that they're going to really believe in. But if I say, hey, and Ben, you and I have done this before, I say, Ben, I'm thinking about this. Can you think about this for a while? [00:15:17] Tell me what you think about it. You're going to take that away, castle up, if you will, and then you're going to come back, and because you're a researcher, you're going to come back with the best options. Right. It is really a superpower for you just as much as the assertive piece of synthesizing and making quick decisions and taking the charges for Lisa, that ability to really process information and bring your best out is kind of your superpower. Yeah, I think one of the things I've learned in withdrawing is it's actually a pretty great strength because I find that I catch quite a lot of things in passing or that you wouldn't normally grab, or I think I find myself throughout the day, did you catch this? [00:15:59] Or I have an awareness of my surroundings differently as a Five, of who's missing in a conversation or who needs to know what or how, or her. And I just communicating throughout the day of, like, she's got 30 things going on at once and just bringing up the two or three. I'm like five past that I forgot that I'll come back to that. Like, bringing that awareness to things differently. Alisa, how have you leveraged Ben's strength. [00:16:29] Of that some fun things. I actually sometimes lean into maximizing it. When we were pregnant, I was like, I need you to research baby strollers. Even before we knew, she just knew. I like to read stuff, but she. [00:16:46] Always would research like the best Apple product or the new thing, like, well, this has the different features. Always our entire marriage. I mean, whenever we're going to make a big purchase, I'm like that's off my plate. We want this. So now you figure out what brand and what it needs to be. [00:17:05] If there's a better warranty. So that's like amazing and fantastic. That's awesome. He does have red hair, but he still tends to be more calm and cool when I might get fiery real fast. He'll kind of like just hold and let me and then might come back with a question or like, help me cool down in ways that is not. [00:17:35] My natural tendency, intentionally not castling to get to that moment. Yeah. Look at you. Look at you. Well, I was thinking of James, you've mentioned this a couple of times of eight synthesizing information. [00:17:48] Well, and I think Alisa is your wings. You said it is a seven. Yeah. So they both synthesize information quickly, fast. You can see a lot of data, see a problem and all the scenarios and pieces to it and make a decision very quickly, which in crisis or in a time that needs to move, is great. [00:18:05] But the shadow side of that is sometimes you don't see all the details and all the implications of everything that you're about to just make a decision to do. And so Ben, obviously, even more so than myself as the two, I'm not going to offer this, that Ben offers is like all of the questions and slowing down and making a decision. Sometimes we do have to make fast decisions, but a lot of decisions in married life and things like big purchases, but even relational decisions with our kids. And it helps slow us down. Think about all the questions, which could probably possibly get annoying, but very helpful. [00:18:42] Yeah, absolutely. Let me proof all of her emails and messages that are important, that need to be worded correctly. I hit send way too fast. She's ready. Fire. [00:18:53] Aim. So I correct the aim before we hit fire. We had too many times I would post on Instagram where I would be like, did you know there was three misspelled words? And what you guys. [00:19:06] Yeah, I know. For myself, I'm not as warm as you, but if I'm sending an email, especially if they could have a little bit of edge to it, I always have somebody that's more on the warm side. Somebody who's a nine or two or somebody who's more relational that can go, hey, how does this hit you? Because I want to make sure that it doesn't offend or charge somebody up. Because if I get an email like that, I'm like, great. [00:19:30] Quick into the blank. That was awesome. That's right. I just want to make sure that I'm affirming you that you are warm and you're aware. You're aware of when you need to be. [00:19:39] So I just want to make sure that all listeners know that I didn't, like, just slam you and say, you're not warm. And Alisa is technically, it's true, but. You'Re aware it is true. Okay. So, Ben, in what ways have you leveraged Elisa's strength? [00:19:55] Oh, gosh, it's funny. I think in the way that she utilizes my giftings of getting to the right information. I think I'm a very deliberative person. So I'll drive her crazy standing in the grocery store looking at five brands of the same exact product, and when she'll just walk through, stop it. Just grab that one. [00:20:17] It's all sour cream. It's going to be fine. [00:20:23] Being able to move forward and not questioning all question decisions or all question conversations and getting a matter of fact, we have that balance with each other. Getting a very matter of fact, or literally this morning, getting ready for church, like, hey, does this look okay? No, that looks bad. If you were wearing different pants, this would have been this. It would have looked away better. [00:20:45] It's like, okay, 30 seconds. It's fixed. [00:20:52] Real fast. Come on. Yeah, well, let me stop you there and pull on that for a second. Before you knew about any Graham into your numbers, would that have caused her feelings? Oh, sure, totally. [00:21:04] Yeah. Well, he asked me a question, so I'm a direct question, and we're in a time crunch, so I directly answered, right? Yes. I thought it was fun. [00:21:21] This has happened our whole marriage, and at the beginning, it really hurt his feelings. And I was like, but you do not want me to tell the truth. It was really a hard rush. She would actually preface, do you want the truth or how do you want me to respond right now? Does it really matter today? [00:21:41] I feel like he now does appreciate that he doesn't necessarily like my answer, but he went and changed and was signed with confidence. He knows that there's no animosity or ill will tour. There's goodwill. It's just how you're wired is to kind of go, I'm going to be blunt and tell you if you want the truth, I'm going to tell you the truth. Right? [00:22:02] Yeah. And at 530 in the morning, you could receive that however you want to receive it. And I probably, in truth, probably was a little mad. And I'm like, fine, I'll just change whatever. And I totally changed what I was going to wear completely. [00:22:18] I was like, I'll just wear this again. But I did it. Yeah, well, and then we go back, like, later. I will do my best to circle back and just say, hey, we've had along through the years at different points, and you're always having difficult conversations but we've had to go back to our bottom line in marriage for us is that we are for each other. So when we communicate, no matter what, we have to say, you know, I'm for you. [00:22:46] So if we always start with that being the foundation and going so if he says something that hurts to me, I'm like, I know he's for me. He doesn't mean to hurt me right now, we will circle back and be like, I'm for you. I just don't want you to look like that walking out the door or whatever. But even in hard conversations and friendships that have gone sideways or different things and having to give honest feedback to say, well, this might have not felt good to them or I'm for you, I love you, but I still want the best for you. Right. [00:23:15] So I have to tell you the truth, and it doesn't always feel good. Yeah. When we talk about in the beginning stages of marriages, sometimes when you're bringing both of your stories together, it can feel more like a crazy collision versus a beautiful blending. And you can see how just the dynamic of your personality, how there could be a lot of crazy collision in the beginning and still that it would still happen because it's always growing. But you can see this, like, really cool blending of you all leveraging each other and then just the honor. [00:23:46] You're honoring one another and saying, we're for each other. That just lays a great foundation that applies to any personality, any dynamic, any situation, whether it's over what clothes to wear or something really tough that, you know, that is more emotional that you can come back to, that you guys have done such a great job learning and growing together. It's cool. This is probably another conversation for another time, but about five years ago had an emotional awakening. But for the first eight years of our marriage, we always wondered why other people fought. [00:24:18] We never fought, but long story short, it came to the point that I realized I just suppressed my emotions all the time. It was easier to me to just say I'm sorry, or she would eventually say she's sorry and just lay down. But learning how I was wired after taking any exam, I'm like, oh, okay, that makes sense why I reacted that way. But I basically ran our marriage. Not intentionally, but then was always so like, I don't care. [00:24:47] Whatever you want. What do you want to do? And if I was like, hey, can we buy this? Or whatever, he would never tell me no. Which financially, that's terrible bad advice. [00:24:57] But we really didn't have friction and we got to that point. The last four and a half years, we've really kind of learned how to. Be remarried again through some counseling and things. Emotions woke up and it was like we were newly married and then had all the collision. It was wonderful. [00:25:15] Yeah. Just collision. It was great. Well, that's so cool because you realize that not fighting or not having tension isn't always healthy. Right. [00:25:27] You can go that many years and be just very passive and ignore things and it not be great. So good for you guys to stir the pot up a little bit and get a little rowdy. That's good. I was just thinking, I'm glad, Alicia, your family was wrong and you guys ended up together because you guys really are a power couple. And the way that you have grown and we watched you grow in your relationship and your marriage, and just to be a small part of it, navigating any grand a few years ago and just to see the awareness and growth and intentionality is so great and I love that. [00:25:59] It is a beautiful blending. And I think that's why we always say that having a growth mindset as a husband and wife to go, hey, I'm going to take care of what's going on inside me. But together we're going to learn, develop and grow. And so it's just awesome to continue to watch your family flourish and thrive and what you're doing. And as a side, you're a super host for Airbnb Now, which is kind of cool, right? [00:26:22] Which is no surprise as an agent, she conquered it. But I'm sure Ben did all the background investigation and set up and making sure that everything was right and done. I'll check all of her messages to guests, all the things. So, in fact, you're both super host. Super hosts. [00:26:40] That's right. Yeah. Well, thank you for being on the show today and look forward to continue watching your journey and your art espousing flourish. Absolutely. It's our pleasure. [00:26:49] We're excited to be a part. Well, there you go. Thanks again, Ben. And Elisa. And thanks for listening. [00:26:55] We love to hear your thoughts and answer your questions about what we've shared. You can email us at hello@artistpouting.com or direct message us on Instagram at artistpousing. If you found this episode helpful, please let your friends know by sending them a link to the show. You can also help other people find the podcast by rating the podcast and leaving us a review. We want to invite you back. [00:27:16] Next week. We are going to be sharing a fresh perspective on love, where feels and facts come together. So have a great week and we'll see you next time on the Artist Browsing podcast. Until then, bye.