Justin and Andrea Lathrop

[00:00:00] Hey, we're Chuck and May Dettman from Jupiter, Florida, and we've been married 53 years, and we love the Art Espousing. [00:00:11] Hello. Welcome to the Art Espousing Podcast. We are really thankful that you're taking time to listen to the show. Thank you, Chuck and May, for kicking off the episode. We love you guys. [00:00:21] We've had the opportunity to serve alongside you for several years now, investing in marriages, and you all are the real deal and our lives are better from knowing you. So this is the last episode of season one, and we've had a great time putting the show together and we're excited about season two. There are two big changes to the podcast in season two. The first is that we are going weekly, and the second change is that we are going to be adding discussions about spousing with other couples and specifically around the tool of the enneagram. This is how this is going to work. [00:00:53] The first and third of the month, we will continue the same format of the Artist Housing podcast. Hopefully it's been helpful information and tools to increase the momentum of your marriage relationship. But now we're going to do on the second and fourth Mondays, we'll be adding a conversation with another couple around the tool of the enneagram and how the enneagram has added value to that couple's relationship. Today, James, you and I will kick this off and set the pattern of how this is going to work right. Moving forward, we'll bring in other couples to process what they've learned about the enneagram and relationship to their marriage. [00:01:30] But before we do that, we want to tell you about an opportunity that can really help you grow in your relationship. Are you looking for that one thing that will be the game changer for your marriage? We believe that all of us desire a marriage marked by deep connection, abundance, unity and passion. But at times it can feel like our relationship is stuck in the routine of the mundane. Intimacy can get crowded out by the pace and demands of everyday life. [00:01:55] It's not uncommon to feel trapped by one circumstances. Can you relate? If you want a greater connection with your spouse, if you are tired of feeling stuck in the same old same old, if you desire to feel the thrill of fun and discovery again like you did when you first met, we can help. We support couples to reconnect, recharge and reengage to pursue their life purpose together. We offer the marriage reboot retreat by married for a purpose. [00:02:19] This is a private, two day intensive experience for you and your spouse to work exclusively with Lisa and I for two consecutive full days to identify where you've been defined, where you currently are and discover where you want to go together. The Reboot Retreat is designed for a wide variety of marriages. Whether you're in crisis, a struggling marriage who needs a unified vision, or you just want to go from good to great or maybe somewhere in between. If you would like to find out more about the marriage reboot retreat, you can set up a discovery call with myself and James and we can tell you all about it. The link is in the show notes or you can direct message us on Instagram or Facebook at artistposing and we will send you a link to schedule a discovery call. [00:03:02] So, Lisa, several years back, you made the investment to become certified as an enneagram coach through a unique tool called the Integrative Nine. It's regarded as one of the most accurate tools out there dealing with the enneagram. It's also the most comprehensive tool and it identifies and deals with layers of information around the person's core. Enneagram type. Yeah, enneagram is pretty complex and I love this tool. [00:03:26] There are a lot of tools that you can use to assess what number you are, but this one gives you a lot of information. It's kind of like an onion, lots of layers. And sometimes you cry when you actually pull off those different layers. Before we get started and talking about you and your Instagram type right. I thought I would give a brief overview for those of you who are not familiar with any gram or may need a refresher. [00:03:48] And of course, this is highly complex, so I'm given like just the bare bones right. 30,000 foot view. Yes. One through nine. And James said amen because I have a lot of words. [00:03:57] That's true. So there are nine types. I'm going to start with one. One is the strict perfectionist. These are highly Integrus people. [00:04:05] If you want something done right, you're going to ask a one. Okay. They can be a little rigid and non flexible, but that's just a babysite effect of them. They're actually wonderful people. I actually love one. [00:04:17] That's right. I love all of them. Two is the considerate helper. These people are very attuned to the needs of others. Sometimes not so in tune to the needs of themselves. [00:04:26] You may find them helping you with water that you didn't know you needed or a jacket or raincoat rainbows, I don't know. They're highly helpful people, very empathic people. The third one is the competitive achiever. They love to achieve. They live in a paradox of there either winning or they're losing. [00:04:44] There's really no middle road. They love success. They're actually called the chameleon of the enigma because they can shape shift to be what people need them to be. And they're also called the politician because they can spend some words and make sound fantastic. The four is the intense creative. [00:04:58] That's exactly what they are. They're intensely creative. That doesn't mean that only fours are creative. Right. But they are very familiar with feelings. [00:05:06] Lowest of lows, highest of highs. They're said to be able to verbally articulate God's creation and emotions when they're healthy in the most beautiful, poetic, descriptive ways not necessarily just in writing, but in all forms of creation. They are actually very comfortable with paying. Okay. Five are the quiet specialists. [00:05:28] They are data keepers. They collect a lot of information. If you ever want to know what the best restaurant is on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, they'll probably be able to give you five locations and address in a flash. That's right. Five tend to be introverts and they process slowly, so sometimes they need a little bit more time to take in information to be able to get back information. [00:05:48] Six is the loyal skeptic, the loyalist. They're highly loyal. They require systems and structures, governments and religious organizations to help them keep things. In short, because they are fear based people. They are looking for the bugger that is me in my own language. [00:06:08] There you go. Looking for where the kinks in the armor are. They are threat assessors. They're great for knowing what could happen, but if not in a good space, they could probably circle the drain pretty good. Okay. [00:06:19] Sevens are the enthusiast visionary. These people are the Peter Pan of the Enneagram. They're forever young. They're moving from one adventure to the next. The best food you know could possibly be an Enneagram. [00:06:31] Seven, they really do not like to linger in any one thing. They have already eaten lunch and they're ready to talk about dinner and what they're doing the next day. They do not like pain. They will avoid it and just feed themselves with lots of fun things and activities to avoid that. Eight the active controller. [00:06:50] These guys are very assertive, dominant people, love to take control, challenge, probably any idea possible. When there's an Eight in the room, you're probably going to know that they're there. And then the nine is the peacemaker. This is the sweetheart of the Enneagram. They actually can understand and identify with all numbers, so they're usually confused of what they are because they think they're everything, because they can completely identify. [00:07:15] An interesting fact about them. They usually don't get angry, but when they explode, they explode. Right. And they usually shock themselves and anyone on the other side of their anger. That's it in a nutshell. [00:07:27] Obviously a lot more to say about all of them, but that's it. So really the hope for this new series of podcasts is as we sit down with couples who have different core types, you'll be able to hear how they interact with one another and maybe learn something about yourself and your spouse and how you guys interact with one another. It's going to be great. And I'll unpack some findings that I've learned as I've studied any ground along the way, so it will be lots of fun. Okay, let's start by you telling us about your core enneagram type and what you've learned about yourself. [00:07:56] Okay. I am an enneagram eight. No surprise to people who know me, right? That's right. I was not going to say anything. [00:08:04] So I am a challenger, and I tend to challenge about anything, even if I know that I'm wrong. I'm also a self preservation eight, meaning that I'm really concerned about my own needs. I know that you will probably impact this as we talk about subtypes, but my subtype is self preservation, and that makes me look different than maybe a social eight or a one one eight. Right. My wing, which is the number on either side that's strongest, is a seven. [00:08:30] It could be a nine, but it could be a nine. But it is not, in fact, at all a nine. Definitely. I'm definitely not a peacemaker. My seven is just barely below my eight. [00:08:41] And so there are times that I present more like a seven than I do in eight. That's a little bit about me. I'm very much a challenger, very much assertive in what I do and how I live my life. So. How about you, Lis? [00:08:56] So what are you? I am an Indigram, too. The fun, loving, caring, helpful helper that I am. I have lots of beautiful names. That's why everybody likes you more than you. [00:09:06] Like me? Well, maybe, but really not true. But I'm also a self preservation, which I'd like to mention. Self preservation doesn't mean that we are selfish. We're actually preserving our energy resources. [00:09:18] But that makes me look a little bit different than all other two. That's why we can't go around typing people, because certain things look different. So self preservation, too. People will notice that I anticipate needs I can't overhelp or smother. My heart is that I really want to feel loved by being available to help people. [00:09:36] That's good. My wing is a one. Right. So that's the perfectionist. It is definitely utilized in our home. [00:09:44] You would see that someone may say, I'm OCD, which is really I'm not clinically OCD. I just like things in a particular order, and I like things done in a certain way. Right. I mean, just to be clear, before we even sat down to record this episode, you had to make sure the house was completely picked up and everything was put in his place. Yes, because I can't sit in this room knowing that their clothes unfolded in another room in our bedroom. [00:10:10] That's correct. We won't see until we have to deal with them later tonight. That's right. But in my mind, they're there and they're cumbersome. So nonetheless, I am a self pressed two with a wing of one. [00:10:21] And so those tendencies of a one definitely show up in my personality. Now, I have a very unique thing about my enneagram, just as you mentioned. James, you're high in seven. How do we know this is because the integrative nine actually scales you one to 100 on each number one through nine. Right. [00:10:38] So you're like from one out of 100, you're like 90 something, 90 in the being an eight. But you also are just that close to being a seven. I see a lot of seven of you. Well, the weird thing about me, it isn't my wing that's really high. I have a very high six tendency. [00:10:55] So my six is so close number to my two. I had to make this decision and go through this process. Am I really a two or am I really a six? Because that is how high I score in the loyal skeptics. That's true. [00:11:08] So I do circle the drain. But what I mean by that is I threaten assess so much, I connect dots of threat so much, it is actually painful in my mind how I can see an accident 2 miles down the road before it ever happens. And the truth is, it never happens. Yeah. Well, the funny thing about you and something we laugh about is how you can go from zero to 100. [00:11:31] In worst case scenario, we could say, hey, I just heard that Joe was in a car accident. You're like, oh, my goodness, did he lose his legs? So you go to the worst case scenario that could happen. And it's actually been a fun journey with especially raising kids. When they misbehave or something, you always go to the absolute worst, that they're going to end up in prison or something. [00:11:53] That's right. Well, I would like to say that in our marriage relationship, I would hope to think that I actually demonstrate more, too, and even the bad sides of two. But in parenting, sixes out screaming around the house everywhere. So thankfully, that hasn't shown up in our marriage relationship. But that's me. [00:12:11] Ingram two wing one. But got a lot of six going on in here, which makes a very colorful palette. Yeah, it does. I'd like to ask you, in light of that, you being an eight, me being a two, how have you seen this influence or impact our married life? I think it's been really powerful for us as we've discovered the tool of instagram and the strengths and the weaknesses. [00:12:33] One of the things that we've learned about the instagram is that it's a tool of empathy. Right. And so the more we learn about each other's core types, it allows us to have empathy towards what motivates or what's going on inside of each other. As an eight, there is just this internal drive we need to challenge everything. Can I give an example here? [00:12:52] You can. Anything and everything. When we're making a grocery list and I said, I think we need chicken, you said, I already got chicken. And I said, well, I just looked. I don't think we know I did. [00:13:02] I got chicken. So it can be you can challenge even the most simplest of things. It can become much like an interrogation. That's right. And I think that's been probably even from when we started dating back in college. [00:13:15] I was always the one to want to get in debates and challenge people in their belief system and cause a lot of arguments. Before I began to grow in my awareness of this, I wasn't the most pleasant person to have a conversation with because I am opinionated and can be sarcastic and challenged, even the easiest things. And I'm pretty quick at synthesizing stuff. I mean, that seven eight combination allows me to come to decisions and synthesize things really fast. And so I think in our relationship it's been good because I don't leverage empathy really well, where you gush empathy as a two. [00:13:49] And so I think it's balanced out our relationship, especially with other people, that you just make me better in that area. And then I think there's also some things in our relationship that you're not very direct. You don't synthesize things really fast, you don't make quick decisions. As we've grown in a relationship over the last 30 years, it's allowed me to step in and help push you to make the right decisions. Not to push you to do something you don't want to do, but just in a healthy way, in a healthy way, just to push you over the edge on the things that you know you need to do. [00:14:15] And so I think that's been good. I think some of the challenges, honestly, more recently, some learnings around this would be as a helper too, that your motivation is to help people and that's how you feel and express love to people. You don't receive help that well for me. And so I want to sometimes come alongside and help solve a problem and so forth. And that actually can sometimes cause tension in the relationship because you don't readily receive help because you don't want to be needy. [00:14:45] Correct. And so I've had to learn in our relationship that there are times that I have to let you process it through until you come to me and say, hey, can you help me with this? But even that like if it's a computer issue and so forth, if I take too much control and just start showing you how to do it and it feels like it takes the ability for you to feel needy, it can cause tension. Would you agree with that? I would agree with every single thing you said. [00:15:12] I wished I would have been writing down all the things you said because I'd love to address them all and add to them, but I'm going to go from memory as best I can. So the first thing that you said is that in college you would love debate h do like to just throw a stick of dynamite in the room and watch everyone scramble. That would be the worst thing that I would want to experience as a two. So that tension for me in our relationships from then to now, although you've obviously matured and softened a lot of that, but that still is in you, that you actually enjoy a hearty, robust conversation where there's tension when you have no ill will. You're just wanting to feel this, like, intensity, which is what age are about eight love intensity. [00:15:53] So that isn't argumentative to you, but it feels that way. Yeah, it's true. The other cool thing about the eight is that they are described as a marshmallow wrapped in barbed wire. So very tender hearted, soft hearted. And I've seen that express toward me and a lot of my emotional healing that you have had a lot of empathy for me because you do go to two in strength. [00:16:17] We'll talk about that here in a minute. But you do know how to leverage empathy. You have empathy. Just because you're stronger, you're challenging, doesn't mean that it's not there. But you have had, over the years, over 30 years of marriage, of me navigating a lot of things in my life that have been very difficult for me. [00:16:33] You have patience and empathy and very tender hearted towards me, and it has served me well. And that you are a fierce protector. Yeah, it's true. Everyone on your team, but especially your first team, which happens to be me, right? Yes. [00:16:48] So in that and you're talking about challenging me and pushing me up, it's really been less about challenging, pushing me, but more about giving me confidence. You got this, you can do this. Step out. Or in my enneagram six spin, where I keep threat assessing and trying to figure out and then with the two going, oh, how is this going to impact relationships? If I do this, I'm going to lose all my friends. [00:17:13] You help me synthesize, stop threat assessing, stop the monkey mind, make a decision, move forward. And so to me, that has been so vital. The benefits of you being an eight have served me better and served our marriage better than they have been a deficit. But I would say it's because you have been ruthlessly seeking self leadership, growth, self awareness, because we talk about this in marriage all the time, is when you're having a struggle in marriage, get a hula hoop, drop it over yourself and work on everyone in the hula hoop. That's what it is. [00:17:51] So you have been doing that? I have been doing that. I have seen how, just as you mentioned, my two helps bring empathy and softness to your eight. But your eight helps me have strength and confidence. So I feel like it really has been a beautiful blending, not a crazy collision, but sometimes they do hit each other and it's a little messy. [00:18:12] Yeah. And I think we've learned to leverage each other's strengths and cover each other's weaknesses. And so there will be times that will be with people. And when I get a little heated, a little challenging, you'll touch my knee or kick me out of the table, it just reminds me of, like, hey, back it off. And there are times that when you are caring for people and you're overdoing it, I have to put my hand on your back or whatever and just kind of say, hey, this wrap it up type thing. [00:18:40] And so I think we've leveraged that in each other to the point that I think it's really helped us a lot. Yeah, well, even this week, I won't go into a lot of detail because it's a lot of detail. That's why I'm not going to go into it. Thank you. But my helper self got the better of me in helping, and I often overextend myself to a place of burnout that I'm helping with anyone and everyone's request. [00:19:07] And because I've lived in this county for over 25 years, I have deep, long standing, wide net of relationships that all could possibly need me one time every two years, and then I'm actually doing something every day. And you have provided, like Lisa, think about that. But I have to also come without my defenses up and irritated, ready to pounce on you about going, don't tell me what I can't do. It's like listening, pausing, hearing, and adapting to what I need to do. So it is true. [00:19:38] I love it. I think we work well together, but we've also grown. Yeah. And I think before we jump into maybe, like, the stress and release piece, I think the one thing that's really important to note is because we know each other so well, we know each other's strengths and weaknesses, this tool is not supposed to be used as a tool of it's not a weapon. It's not a weapon. [00:19:58] So it would be very devastating to our relationship if I was like, oh, that's just so two of you. Stop being such a two. Or you're like, you're eight and you're just challenging everybody just like an eight. You're just being so eight. That would not be good. [00:20:11] But when you reverse as a tool of empathy like we talked about, I can actually see that man, like, in this situation just recently, this week, that you really just poured out of what motivates you to help, and especially if you're taking advantage of, man, that just really bothers me. So I can feel a lot more empathy towards that. Or if you see something to me, especially if it has something to do with an injustice with a person or with you or with a team member, and I get heated, you can empathize and not just call me out on that. Right. That is interesting because I have noticed in seasons. [00:20:43] Even with lots of work that you have had and grown in empathy and leveraging it more in your work relationships. Family relationships with our kids and myself. That when you want to express your aid and you do not want to listen to my gentle nudge or pinch on the elbow or vice versa. I don't want to listen to you. And I overextend myself. [00:21:06] But since I'm talking about you. I'm going to talk about you. But if you choose to do that one of the things that has been really difficult for me because of my high relational self and people pleasing self, when you blow up relationships or you choose to blow up an argument, I took responsibility for your choices because the two of us are one. But you are your own man. You make your own decisions. [00:21:32] We can help one another. But if you're going to actually fight for an injustice and blow your influence in a moment, not my responsibility. Right? And so that was a very hard lesson, I would say, from a two perspective, married to an eight, you challenges, literally in leadership or relationship were very difficult to me because those were my friends who are very close related to my friendships, which caused tension, which is painful for two. So learning that, hey, if someone wants to hold me accountable for your behavior, that's their problem. [00:22:07] And I am not going to own your decisions to fight for the injustice of people and meanwhile blow everyone up. That's right. I think one of the cool things about the enneagram, too, is that when you understand how different types are connected, you can begin to see maybe where your spouse is. And so maybe you can talk a little bit about the lines of integration, the stress and strain. Right. [00:22:31] So if you see the construct of the enigram, you'll see these lines that are crossing over, and it looks a little bit like a pentagram, which causes it to have real weird feelings about it, but it isn't. That what those are. What you're referring to is stress and release or stress and stretch. People call them different things. We're going to call it stretch and release. [00:22:51] So I'm going to use our eight and two. I'm not going to go through all of them, but any number you see on the dial, you're going to see they're connected to other numbers. So the eight and two, I'm connected to an eight. I'm also connected to four. So the two has a line down to four and one across to eight. [00:23:11] So under stress, I go to the 8th. I have tendencies that look like the worst case scenario of the worst of me. The worst of James is when I start getting controlling. I start becoming a dictator, I start challenging. I really look out of character for myself. [00:23:30] When I'm in a good place and release, I go to four creative empathetic, attuned to people's needs. I can help people articulate how they're feeling beautifully. So that would be a sign that I'm in a good place. So James, if I'm around the house and I'm working on a project of home decoration, that's me in good space. Yeah. [00:23:49] That's you leveraging your four. Yes. So if I am stressed and you can see a very tense look on my face, I become intense. That is a warning sign. Mayday. [00:24:01] Mayday. Danger, Will Robinson. Run for your life. Well, for me, I can actually use that as a tool of growth. There are certain things that make me feel like my eight is about to explode, and I can take note of that. [00:24:17] And I do make choices in that moment because I know exactly which is a whole episode in itself, and I actually have things that I do to settle myself down. Most of the time, right off the top, I'm not going to respond, and I'm not going to talk. So in married life, when I'm feeling that way, I may say to you because I have a tendency to be passive aggressive as a too, but I would say to you, James, I'm feeling a little aidish. I'm retreating only because I'm trying to gather my thoughts. I don't want to blow up, but I'm not being passive aggressive. [00:24:51] And I've had to declare that because you could think, I'm retreating to punish you, but I'm retreating to get myself together so I don't make it a bigger mess than it already is. Do you have anything to add before I talk about you as an eight? No. I think that's good. I see those tendencies, and it's allowed me to know how to approach things or not to approach things, and I still screw up from time to time, approaching at the wrong time, but that's life, right? [00:25:18] I'm learning. We're both learning. Yeah. So you want me talking about mine? Well, right before you do, I do want to say our stressor does not have to be determined that we're always going to act badly. [00:25:28] Right. You can grow into it. We can grow into it. So. For example. [00:25:31] I don't let my aid rule me. And it serves as a red flag that I may be under stress. But I also access it and learn how to do. Like. Speak for myself and declare what I need and make sure that my opinion is heard or my thought or idea is heard or that. [00:25:46] You know. That. Hey. I didn't like that. And that didn't feel good. [00:25:49] Whereas sometimes I may retreat and be passive aggressive, I've leaned into my age. Instead of letting it control you control me, or it being controlled, and I'm destroying things around me. And I like one of the things you always do is, like, anytime that you're feeling that way, it's like, I'm trying to live into my age. I'm trying to understand it. And I think that's the thing about this, too, is you can't use your core type or weaponize it. [00:26:11] You can't use it as an excuse. Either it's not a crush or a weapon. You don't do that. You're like, I'm trying to live into it. And it's kind of clunky for me to have an eight voice. [00:26:19] So for me, my stretch would be to a five. So what that looks like for me is. I tend to castle up. I'm already an introvert, but I tend to get very quiet, very by myself. I don't talk. [00:26:31] I become very internal in my processing and very guarded with my energy and resources specifically. I think one of the big discoveries for me just recently was just how we're in the season where finances are a little bit tight, because that's like a stressor for me. I go to the five, and I tend to try to figure out how to protect, how to guard, how to cut spending and so forth so that there's enough there. You'll be making Excel spreadsheets. You'll be researching everything. [00:27:01] Yeah, I'll get us on rice and beans. Maybe not that bad, but I do tend to hoard that, and five tend to hoard their energy, and I'll do that in those stressor areas. When I'm doing good, I definitely go to a two. I feel like I'm really good at helping people. I'm really good at helping you and solve issues, and I feel like that's a good place for me. [00:27:23] One of the things that I think is interesting, too, about how numbers merge is I do find that I take on your stress. So as your spouse, sometimes when you're really stressed, my natural tendency is to go to five. So, like, where you probably need me to be more communicative and more caring and empathetic. I tend to sometimes not know how to respond. And so I'll tend to castle up and reserve myself until you're in a better place that we can do that. [00:27:51] I think there is a piece of becoming one of how you take on tendencies for each other. It's a powerful tool, for sure. It is. Well, the interesting thing is you could go to five when I'm in a bad place, and that may be good because I just need a little space to back off. So that's fantastic. [00:28:06] But if I'm wanting to be communicative and you're not, then it could be bad. So it's like trying to figure out the dance of, like, where is Lisa right now? What does she need? And you really have done a great job, and I think we've learned to communicate together of like, hey, James, when I need something, I'm really going to look for how to ask you for what I need specifically so that you're not in a guessing game and wondering where I am. But if not, then you castling up actually serves me really well. [00:28:33] It gives me a little bit of space and isn't noodling in and trying to figure out what to do and causing me to be more stressed. So it is a dance. So if you're listening to maybe your spouse is either an eight or a two or you're an eight or two, and hopefully we've given you some stuff that we've navigated our relationship. Are there a couple of resources that we would suggest that they should look at? Yes, I think the Go to Foundational book that's really easy read and great for information around in the game is Road Back to you. [00:29:03] Right. It's written by in crime. We'll put it in the show notes so that you can have it. And then another is sacred enneagram by Chris Hurwitz. Now, I'm probably seeing his last name wrong because I usually destroy all last names. [00:29:14] But again, it will be in the show notes. It's a next level. I wouldn't start there. I would start with road back to you. Right. [00:29:21] But there are some really cool ones that integrate with marriage. My first top recommendation is Jeff and Beth McCord's book Becoming US. Right. It is an evangelical approach to any ground number one, which I think I love that about them. But it's an amazing book integrating in the in our relationship and the dynamics that you might come across with different combinations of numbers. [00:29:45] But it's a fantastic book. Awesome. I'll put that in the show notes. Thanks again for listening. If you found this episode helpful, please let your friends know by sharing it with them. [00:29:54] You can also help other people find the podcast by rating the podcast and leaving us a review. We would love to hear your thoughts and answer your questions that you have about today's episode. You can email us at hello at artispousing or direct message us on instagram at artispousing. So have a great week and we will see you next time on the Artist spousing podcast. Until then, bye.