Episode 863 - Masterplan

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And welcome to a brand new Arsblog Arscast right here on Arsblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. Just to let you know I've got a tactical plan for this podcast. So for the first half of the show, I'm not gonna do anything at all. Yeah, you weren't expecting that, were ya? That's That's the genius of the plan, you see. I'm operating on a different level from

every other podcaster out there. You see, I'm not playing four D chess, I'm playing like eight D chess, and I'm having a game of Scrabble at the same time. Because I'm taking a macro holistic, synergistic, disruptor energy into this show. It's a game changer. All the other podcasters will be like yeah, we were doing stuff in the first half of our shows, and this guy, he's come along and he's just

Leveraging the drill downs and pivoting to a cultural whiteboard. And that's how you win things, my friends. That's how you win things by doing nothing for the first half. Pretty sure that's how you w you win things. Let me just check the football results from last night. Oh. I think I think I might have got this one wrong. Maybe if you're in a situation where I don't know, let's say you need to score a goal in a cup tie, which you're losing from the first leg

You should try and score a goal rather than do absolutely nothing. Hmm.

I'm now having to uh somewhat rethink my presentation to All the guys at the CEO lunch, you know, Weber Palooza. But look, like me, you might have been mistaken for thinking that Simply not trying to score a goal in a game in which you need to score a goal is a good thing if you're watching. Arsenal beat Chelsea 1-0 last night in the Carabao Cup semi-final.

Second leg, Gary Neville on Sky going on and on about what a brilliant plan it was from Chelsea and how it's gonna work any second now. Any any second they're gonna score a goal and Arsenal are gonna be fucked. That's basically what he's saying, yeah. Just give it a minute. I'm convinced Yep dr any time now Chelsea are gonna score a goal. But y weirdly Turns out they didn't score a goal. Now, I'll admit I'm not an ex player, an ex England international, I haven't played at the highest level.

But nor have I been beaten seven nil by Barcelona as a manager. So I think we're probably even, me and Gary Neville. And I did not agree at all with his contention that what Chelsea were doing last night was in some way really brilliant and effective, when in fact it was the opposite. Because when it boils right down to a Chelsea scored

No goals in a game they needed to score in, and we scored one goal in a game we didn't need to score in. So who can say truly if Gary Neville was talking absolute bollocks or not?

I can, he was. It was complete bollocks, and we'll get into all of that, I think. As we discuss this game, we discuss Arsenal reaching a final after Probably a bit too much semi final. disappointment over the last number of years. We're there. We're gonna be at Wembley next month. It remains to be seen who we're gonna play. Manchester City have a two nil lead.

over Newcastle going into their second leg tonight, so it's probably gonna be them, but, you know, football is a a strange thing. The important thing though is that we're there, and we did the job that we needed to do last night. And maybe Chelsea made it a bit easier for us than it might have been, but I'm not complaining. I'm not complaining. The important thing was that we got there. So why don't we talk about the game and talk about how it all went down and with me to do that this morning?

Is Lewis Ambrose. Good morning, Lewis. Good morning, Andrew. Feeling happy? Feeling happy. I'm I'm sure everybody's feeling happy this morning. We're we've Chelsea are miserable. We're on our way to Wembley. What what more do you want? That's it. Maybe just uh you know, if the sun could come out here, that would be nice. Haven't seen the sun for about two weeks it feels like. So um uh maybe I need to just sort of get some vitamin D tablets to

offset that. But apart from that, I think we're all pretty happy, you know? It's um it's quite a funny game this to to talk about because there's been so much discussion of it and so much reaction of it and what Chelsea did, what Chelsea didn't do, what Arsenal did, and um you know, I've I've in the intro uh taken a slightly sardonic uh approach to the way that Chelsea came into this game because

You know, the if I'm gonna play devil's advocate, right? You could probably make a good case that You know, it's one goal, it's a cup semifinal, you're coming to the league leaders, a team that's You know, top of the Champions League table. Um you don't want to go all out from the very start. So you could say keep it tight, nick a goal in the second half. Get it to extra time. Maybe you score again in extra time or you take it to penalties.

And I can see that argument, I can see that sort of plan um And field eighty nine. Well exactly. I've seen people mentioned eighty nine it. Yeah, kinda. Kinda. Keep it tight, nil nil at half time and then do what you need to do in in the second leg. I sort of think though in cup football you've gotta you've gotta go for it a little more than than Chelsea did last night. I was watching that first half and I was thinking, am I watching a a tactical battle here?

Or is this just a really dull, cagey half of football, you know, whi which You could dress up as like, you know, you know, in a match report, maybe somewhere in the Guardian somebody might say, and at halftime it was an intriguing tactical battle, which means fuck all happened.

Yep. You know. How how did you view the approach from from Chelsea? Is it understandable or is it in the the context of a game that you need to score a goal in? Kind of a waste of a half of football? Uh I d I I do understand it.

such a central part to our history and our law. uh as a club and I think if you look at it through that lens uh like I I do get it. This is I think it's weird for us, maybe, because we're not used to teams Even though we've we you know we've gotten better and better over the last few years, uh but if you go back to it we'll come on to how long it's been since we've played a final mm and if you go back to the last

time we played a final, and the last time we played a final in this competition, we were kind of a punchline in many ways. Opposition teams, big clubs did not respect us. And I thought that was what I saw from Chelsea. Um respect that you cannot just turn up and put Arsenal under pressure and create chances and bully them and

I can definitely see the the idea, see the logic behind, you know, that the best way to get through is to make sure Arsenal don't get a goal and finish it. The other side of me thinks, well Don't die wondering. If you'd have come out the blocks and if you'd have really tried to put us under pressure like Liam Rossinha talked about the The stadium maybe Could feel nervy. It's like well make it feel nervy from the first minute then. Don't try and make the stadium nervous.

the the crowd nervous on Arsenal's backs um in the last twenty minutes thinking oh we could upset them now it's like well you could have maybe put us under the cush a lot earlier than that. So you know I think that yeah they they didn't have a full team available, you would I mean Palmer wasn't a able to play much more than he played. Esteval had travelled to Brazil and back in the space of the last few days. So

netto netto Mr failed a late fitness test, Reese James the same. So I guess there would there's an element of hands tied behind the back in terms of team selection as well. I can see why you would do it. And if it works, it works brilliantly. And if it doesn't, then everyone goes, Well, why the fuck do you waste an hour of football? Like you said. Yeah, it is contingent on it actually coming off, isn't it? Because you are playing a a cautious game. You're taking a

By being conservative you're sort of taking a risk uh as well at the same time, counterintuitively. What what struck me last night, I don't know what your experience of of watching the game on TV was, but we had Gary Neville on Sky Sports and he was constantly talking about what a great plan this was and y you know, Chelsea were gonna take it late and deep and the stadium would get nervous and he was talking, you know, oh, he can hear the Arsenal fans around us. They're not really liking this.

Which didn't come across uh I have to say, sometimes you know fine well when the Emirates Stadium is a bit nervous and the fans are a bit on edge. I don't think that was the case last night. So you know this was m my impression of it all was informed by what I was r receiving through the television as well. So I accept that. I acknowledge that. I just think, you know

What what really struck me was that if Michel Arteta had done this, and maybe it's uh the grace that a new manager gets, right? He's new in the job. He's absolutely uh a a new manager, a young manager. He's come into a big club and he's only there three or four weeks and he hasn't had the time You know, that he would like or or you know, maybe in a season or two seasons time his approach is a bit different. So you get that bit of grace.

But I you know, you wouldn't be able to move for headlines and think pieces and reaction about how Arsenal and Mikel Arteta were super conservative and, you know, risk averse and boring and all of this kind of stuff. If we had gone to Stamford Bridge with the roles reversed and we had needed to score and played that way in the first half, you know, I know it's not like for like exactly.

But that's also what we've had to contend with quite a lot this season is so much micro analysis of Arsenal as a football club, Mikel Arteta as a manager, every single performance etc. etc. But this felt like very slightly like a different kind of playing field, if that's the right way to put it.

Yeah, maybe it's maybe it is just that sign of how far we've come and and how we're looked at compared to a Chelsea now. Uh Earlier this season we went to the home of the champions uh and were slaughtered. by the likes of Gary Neville from the second the line up came in and Mikkel Marino was in midfield alongside Daniel Rice and Martin Zuberman.

uh like you say we've we've contended with that this season. Uh and similar to last night. Different to last night because we didn't need to win at Anfield that day. Uh Gary never went on about you have to go and try and make a statement. And well the league table doesn't lie. I think we've made our statement over the course of the last six or seven months in in comparison to Liverpool. Uh yeah. The time he was going on about you have to make a statement, you have to show the intent to win

Similarly to last night, the game was tight, there weren't many chances and there was one goal at near the end of it. In that one we we didn't get any points. Last night Chelsea actually had to win the game. And yeah, I I think like I say, I can understand the approach from from Chelsea's perspective. Uh d I don't think it deserves loads and loads of credit. It did it didn't work, firstly. And uh secondly, it never even looked close to working. They they didn't threaten at all. Uh Kepper made

one save of note, I felt, uh, in the in the first half, Enzo Fernandez with an effort from from just outside the box. We had a very similar shot, similar save from from Sanchez, um brought about by by Hingapier. with an effort after a set piece that sort of the ball fell nicely on the e around the edge of the box again and in Kiapia hit it was a very similar shot, very similar save.

And uh that was that was all either goalkeeper really had to do for that that and maybe claim a couple of crosses and and try and defend a couple of corners for pretty much the entire game. Yes. And you know, if you turn up somewhere. We're a better team than Chelsea. We have better players than Chelsea. We've got we've this team's we're an older team than Chelsea. This team's had years to jail under this manager.

So I I think we were obviously the favourites going into last night and and any game plan of Receniers and Chelsea's was never going to change the fact that we were favourites and they were gonna be have to be spectacular and we were gonna have to play really, really far under our level I think to you know, to lose at home or to lose by a couple of goals at home. But

Yeah, they they didn't turn up like a team that actually I thought that that believed they were gonna turn it around. And I think when the maybe when the manager's telling you, let's get to sixty, seventy minutes, not out of it Maybe then it's hard to kind of go through the gears and turn it up in those last twenty, twenty five minutes.

You know, they played like this. It's gonna be very difficult for them to change it now. And it's like well does that not apply also to Chelsea, who by the way. Yeah, it suited us. And listen.

You know, I accept issues of Chelsea having some players missing, but this is not like plucky underdog low spending uh you know, they bought a hundred players in the last couple of seasons, you know. So I think that factors into

into things as well. But but do you think Mikel Arteta would have been I mean I do, I think he would have been quite happy with the way Chelsea approached this game. Because You know, if they were gonna be risk averse, if they were gonna be cautious until sixty minutes when they made a couple of changes, it was around sixty minutes when they made a couple of changes, right?

Uh let me just look here. Sixty sixty one minutes. They brought on Palmer and Estevau and took DeLap and and Hato off. So that was clearly the plan. Give these guys uh half an hour to have a run at Arsenal. If I'm Mikel Artata, I'm thinking, fine. Yes, please. I'm all right with this. Like you know, I'm not taking uh I'm not saying it's easy. Uh and all jokes aside, I think you have to uh maybe we'll talk about it in a bit more detail in a minute, you have to give Arsenal credit

for the organization, the discipline, the preparation. That was something Arteta talked about as well, because he talked about how they were prepared. for what Chelsea were gonna do and obviously do in different stages of the games. He he was speaking on Sky afterwards I think and he s he talked about having to play mini games.

within the game. So you've got the game and then maybe to an hour Chelsea are gonna change it. And he talked about, well yeah, after the last half an hour and then the last

uh twenty minutes and then the last ten minutes because the the dynamic changes and he said we prepared for all that. So I think you've gotta give Arsell jokes aside, whatever you think about Chelsea's approach, you've gotta give Arsenal credit for recognizing what Chelsea were doing, adapting, controlling, not allowing them to do anything other than maybe have a a couple of speculative efforts from distance, and

You know, that that requires a level of organization and discipline and and energy as well within a game that, you know, it might look like we didn't do a great deal and we didn't do a great deal from an attacking perspective, which I think is another interesting aspect of this disc uh discussion.

But, you know, there's there's a lot of effort required to sort of keep opposition like Chelsea at bay when they do eventually try and change the dynamic of the game, um because th they they weren't able to.

Yeah, I mean we are defensively this this team is we know this. This team is formidable. Uh this Arsenal side with with Gabriel and Saliba with Timber as a as a sort of one on one defender winning his duels. It wasn't Calafury last night if you you sort of have the first choice back for but I thought Hencapi was excellent uh a left back. I thought you know

The questions around Hinkapi are probably more going forward and on the ball and having an impact in the final third. I think you really saw the benefit of having a playing left back last night. You know, he is he he is qu he's not a lumbering centre back. He's quick, he's wiry, uh he's incredibly tenacious and I thought that was He probably his best game so far for Arsenal, um defensively, definitely, last night and and I think a a tricky battle against the lap.

sort of having a striker put out there up against you and big and brutish and physical and then he went off and Esteval came on and it was more of a tricky winger and Higgie stood up really, really well to to both of those tests. Yeah. We're really hard to score goals against and I think Michel Arteta can always lean on that. And I think you know if you want to talk about you talk about Chelsea's approach, our approach in cup football.

It well, you you have to score against us to have any chance. And and then the two goals we dominated the game at Stanford Bridge. The two goals came from lapses and and what would have been goals that Arsenal, uh the Arteta and the players would have been quite disappointed with, I think. And last night there were no lapses, there were no opportunities gifted by Arsenal. Uh Chelsea, if they were gonna do something, they were gonna have to do something really, really Really clever, really.

spectacular, really intricate, mm-hmm and d you know, I think when you you set the bar that high for what a team has to do to score against you, then you give yourself an incredible chance of of keeping that clean sheet. I think to you know go b go back to your point about

whether or not Mikel Arteta would have been happy with Chelsea's approach to that game. Uh as you said that my mind went back to well what would Mikel Arteta do in this situation? I think that's the answer to the question. Would he be happy?

Well, we were in this situation in the Champions League semifinal last season and we flew out of the blocks. We didn't get the result that we wanted, but we flew out of the blocks against PSG and I think we really scared them in that first fifteen, twenty minutes uh at the Parc de Prunce. A a game in the exact same scenario, really. You're playing a top team, they're one goal up, they're at home.

And I think we clearly the last time we were in that situation back in May, we took the approach of, right, let's put them on the back foot immediately. Let's pin them back. Let's try and get the early goal and see if we can rattle them a little bit.

Uh we did rattle them, we didn't get the goal. But I think that answers w whether or not Arteta would have done the same and whether or not he'd have been happy with Chelsea doing that. I think if you we go back to that semi-final against PSG I'm thinking well Presumably he'd do the thing he'd least like to face in that situation. And

He'd probably be pretty happy with Chelsea coming to the Emirates and as you say, if you want to put it that way, wasting the first hour. Well, great, now we only have to keep a clean sheet for half an hour. Well that that's exactly it. That's exactly it, you know. Uh he did get booked, Mikel Arteta.

on the sideline for what looked like at least a jovial kind of conversation with the fourth official, but who knows exactly what went on there. Smile on his face. Um But you know, there wasn't a great deal. to this game in terms of entertainment and enjoyment. I mean one of the things that that also struck me about you know, if I uh and look, obviously it's a disgusting thing to even consider, but if I were a Chelsea fan this morning

beyond being knocked out by Arsenal, and beyond seeing my team take a really cautious approach to this game, I would have also maybe looked at the Arsenal attack last night. I think The back four, keeper had little to do, but the back four and the two midfielders, Zuba Mendi and Rice were were excellent and really, really important, and and the others did their work too in that sense. Um but as an attacking force

There wasn't a great deal from Arsenal last night. No. On the one hand, there didn't have to be, although a goal would have obviously been uh quite beneficial, would have calmed any nerves that were out there and made Chelsea's job uh a lot more difficult. But I would have looked at that front three and thought, Mm That's not a it's not the greatest front three. I don't think we've maybe discussed it on on our preview podcast a little bit, but

it doesn't really work for me. I don't know that it really clicks. Um I think maybe with Matoueke and Martinelli on one side, you probably need somebody like Jesus up front rather than Victor Yakarez. Uh and as I came in, Martin Odegaard was not available, not fit.

Um so as it came in, th like that would be a source of regret for me as well, that there Like if Arsenal had to step it up last night and if Arsenal had to really go at Chelsea and score a goal if Chelsea had scored and we needed to score another goal I would have been, as a Chelsea fan, probably more confident in our in the ability to keep that front three out than other combinations Arsenal could have uh fielded last night.

Yeah, I guess the i do you need three centre backs? Victor Yokarez, uh the then the he doesn't get on the ball loads, he doesn't have loads of touches. Uh he completed one pass last night. Do you need to have ex an extra centre back to keep him more out of the game? Um likewise I think uh Martinelli Madouke. Players who compared to Sakart, compared to Trossard, they don't get as involved in the game, they don't keep the ball and

and kind of build pressure. So yeah, I think this was if you look at the Arsenal lineup, yeah, I don't think Chelsea needed five defenders back there. Caicedo in front of them as well. Um Kaisedo and uh Andre Santos in front of them as well. I think this is

A game that maybe Rosinha looks back at and thinks you know, Enzo Fernandez could have played Deep Room Mitchell next to Caicedo in this one or you could have played the back four Arsenal were did a couple of times nearly get get through over the top. That's what it was. that this front three was ever really likely to give Chelsea too many issues. You know, there's not much and there's a there's a lot happening at high speed with the three of them. There's a lot happening direct and in behind.

uh with Martinelli and Yokarez especially uh there's not much guile, there's not much kind of unlocking the door. So do you need a back five? Probably not. No. Uh and and yeah, it's uh another one that I guess um look it's Rocinha's uh very new to this level of of the game. He's obviously had

a good year or year and a bit with with Strasbourg. Uh but I think maybe that's one that if this game is played in a couple of years and he has a year or two under his belt as a manager at Premier League level and against teams like Arsenal and Manchester City and Liverpool.

Uh yeah, I wonder if maybe you'd have approached it differently. And and and you know, to touch on like you say, that front three, I d I agree it doesn't really work for me either. I think there's not quite There are there are there are different ways obviously to to set your team up and

It it's hard to argue with the result because we didn't need to score a goal yesterday and we never were threatened going the other way really. But we've played this this front three a few times. uh Forest away for the first half, uh Bournemouth away to to start that game. It's never really done it for me either. And uh you know I personally I I would definitely like to see

more balance there, at least one player who's maybe a bit more likely to hold onto the ball and bring others into play. Uh I think the three of them are all quite individualistic and quite direct. and, you know, balancing it like you say with Jesus down the middle, especially when Erdogard wasn't on the pitch as well. With Jesus through the middle, um, or A troussard on the left.

would have been a a more balanced team for me, but you know, it worked. It worked and of course we're we're through to Wembley, uh which we'll uh we'll talk about now in a in a few minutes time. But there were changes from Arsenal as well after Chelsea made changes. He took Madoueke and Yakoras off and put Havertz and and Trossard on. There's a bit more there, I think, in terms of the

uh the combination. Martinelli on the right I think is quite interesting over the last couple of days as well, like uh a different kind of an option uh on the right hand side. We had a chance, I think it was a timber no, it was a Gabrielle header, wasn't it? It was a a cross in, Gabrielle headed it off uh Kukarea's face. What a shame. What a shame indeed. There was a free kick just outside our box, which I will admit to saying I don't like this. I did not care for that particular moment.

'Cause it was just one of those where you could envisage all the ways that the ball might go in the back of the net and I I looked They had a a an angle of it from behind the goal at one point. I was like, Oh, I don't like that wall. What what's what's the story with that wall? I don't think I like that. And then Keppers positioned in a way where I really didn't like the wall, but they didn't make the most of of that particular opportunity. Um, do you think Arsenal should have had a penalty?

Yeah. I think Arsenal could have had a penalty. I I think it's If the ref gives it, I think it probably stays given and when the ref doesn't give it, as soon as you see the replay and there is a touch on the ball then I think the f we know a touch on the ball often renders in the eyes of the officials the the follow through, a trailing leg kind of Meaningless.

If you get the ball first, you're allowed to kind of do whatever the hell you want afterwards. Yucca Yucca is at Newcastle, for example. In the same challenge. Yeah, right. There's a there's another one. So I think I w I wonder if it would have been overturned if we'd have been given it in the first place.

uh I was hoping for a penalty and then as soon as I saw the replay I thought this I didn't think there was any way that that VAR was gonna say you know, come and have a look at this, where he gets the ball first but then also clatters Gabriel Martin. the ball breaks into the box, which I think Martinelli, had he been upright, could have got to that ball. There's a separate movement from the defender which hooks his legs and

for me makes it a a penalty. If we got away with that up the other end I would be thanking my lucky stars, I have to say. I think that was

Uh absolutely a a stone cold penalty. Six minutes of added time at the end where I was like, Where the hell did you get six minutes of added time? There hasn't been a goal, there's only been a couple of substitutions. There hasn't been any like obvious time wasting or stoppages for injury. So it was like, well, they're really trying to create some drama here. Yep. Um but Chelsea, in that sort of final five, six, seven minutes

were rendered kind of useless by Arsenal. Because again, this I think comes back to the way that Arsenal defended. You can say it's poor from a Chelsea perspective, but that they didn't get the ball in the box or that they, you know, weren't just launching it in there into the into the mixer because, you know, when you get to six minutes of injury time and nothing's worked

There really is only one other way to do it, isn't there? Like if nothing's working, it's just like stick the big lads up front, which they did. They stuck a couple of defenders up front, I think. um uh to to give them some presence in the Arsenal box, but singularly failed to get the ball into the box. I mean is that a failure of Chelsea or do you credit Arsenal for, you know, being defensively disciplined and and keeping a good shape, not allowing them the angles to get those crosses in?

Yeah, I think... We did we did shut w considering we've been playing on a heavy pitch, horrible weather. Um and and the pitch took a pounding on on Sunday night as well when the women's team played there with the It doesn't look great at the moment, does it, the pitch? It's not what I think if you I think it's not stopped raining in uh in N five for a for a little while and Yeah, as I say the

Uh for anyone who watched the women's game on on Sunday night, uh it was torrential throughout, hundred and twenty minutes of players running all over the pitch, the good the ground staff of then had a couple of days to turn it around, not even a couple of days, they've just had Monday to to kind of

keep it alive uh and and and try and get a lot of that water off of it in time for last night's game and then the rains kept coming down and kept coming down. I think that that does something to the legs as well. You know, you're running in that heavy We know the difference, you know the the wet ground, the the it's heavier, uh it it takes a little bit more to kick the ball and complete your passes and get the pace you want on it.

Um and and every step just takes a little bit more out of you than you know on a on a on a dry pitch on a nice sunny day. So, you know, I think it was um considering that as well and the as you s touched on earlier, the mental effort required to concentrate and defend that brilliantly, that resiliently for so long, uh do we continue to do a brilliant job? you know, shutting them down in wide areas. We didn't really allow them any time on the ball in our half.

We were really disciplined in our shape. Martin Ellie getting back and basically playing as a right back at times in those last few minutes, uh I know he can blow hot and cold and and there are you know think very widely varying opinions on Gabriel Martinelli, but he will never not put in the most incredible shift when required. And and I think that's part of the reason you know Michel Arteta trusts him so much in in the biggest games and and loves using him in the biggest games.

I thought we were good. Uh I I think Chelsea Could have done more to work a bit of space and and whip a ball in and maybe cause a little bit more chaos. You never know when you whip a ball into the box it All it takes is a deflection or the goalkeeper rushes out with for one that he can't actually come and claim and can't reach. And I think Chelsea will be really disappointed if they didn't ask a few more of those questions.

But any questions they did ask, I think we we limited them as much as you could possibly hope and And and yeah, it was th they didn't really swing the ball in and uh you uh you wonder you look at this Arsenal side compared to Years gone by

And if you're looking to swing the ball in and you look up and it's Gabriel and Calibra and Hincapier and Rice in there, does that kind of put you off as a you um do I want to swing it in to Jal Pedro when he's sort of surrounded by these guys? Sure. Maybe not. You know, so it's weird. It's weird looking at this game and thinking back ten, fifteen years, this is the exact kind of way that we would feebly

lose at Stamford Bridge in the final ten minutes needing a goal. Uh and the just sort of that that role reversal and uh what we've become this this you know defensive monster of a team is is really strange. I l uh yeah I also liked, you know, you mentioned the the balance up front.

Uh, with the front three and the subs and bringing on Havertz and Trossard and that did give us a little bit more as well of the ball, I thought, compared to maybe the mm ten minutes beforehand, uh Over the course of the evening, Yoko has completed one pass, Havertz came on and in his it's not loads, but in his half an hour completed six. I think Madouek is similar, completed seven or eight passes, Trosod came on and completed seven.

in less than half the time. And I think that's you know, when you're looking to see a game out, it's great having the defensive solidity that we have and those, you know, big men in the box heading things out and Martinelli running around closing crosses down, but to have a couple of extra players on the pitch who might put their foot on the ball and keep it a bit more simple and hold it up and complete a couple of passes as well. Um yeah, th I think that makes a big difference. Yes.

every few passes you can complete like that is, you know, thirty seconds where you don't have to defend and concentrate and track your man and and head something away. So Exactly. And if the ball's up the other other end of the pitch, you know, they can't score from there. If you have Trossard holding it up in the corners as he did Um I mean we get to then the last few minutes where Chelsea are are

Huffing and puffing and absolutely failing to blow the house down. I'm sure people will at this point have seen the uh incredible fail video posted by former Chelsea captain John Terry as he recorded himself going, Come on boys, you can get a goal. I w I don't know if he was doing it live, but it's just so weird. It didn't He actually recorded that and then uploaded it to TikTok or whatever. And Listen, if we had finished that game nil nil and it had been an absolute grind

I wouldn't complain because the job was get to Wembley, deal with a semifinal, and make sure you're in the final and you have a chance for Silverware. So I would not have complained. But the coupling of what happened with that kind of John Terry video where he said, Okay, well, we're gonna do Uh a and for him to n either understand the offside rule or be too busy filming his own mug that he didn't notice how onside Havertz was in that moment, uh w was just glorious. And I think that goal

You know, it was a grind. It wasn't the most enjoyable game you'll ever see. But that moment in the ninety sixth, ninety seventh minute just sort of was kind of just what we needed or just what we wanted. It was a bit of icing on the cake. The cake was already served up, you know, we were gonna we were going through. But this was the icing. Kukareya plays a nothing ball forward. It's a really poor, lofted pass to someone, maybe Estevau over on the other side.

And Capier reads it, heads it down, Trossard, plays it down the line to Declan Rice. This is a brilliant, brilliant pass from Declan Rice. Yeah. And we're also, by the way On his left foot. On his left foot, in the ninety seventh minute of a game where we've you know, and he by the way, I thought was excellent defensively as well. But all of a sudden he's free on the halfway line?

He's a breaking forward, taking that opportunity to get forward when he could have stood there and kept his sh uh position. No. You know, he said I saw the interview with him on CBS afterwards, he said he was shattered. Um which I understand because you like you say, heavy pitch long into the corner or anything.

get this ball to someone else so it's not my f my responsibility anymore. Well listen, it's a great pass. It it really is a great pass on his left foot into Havertz, who's got Martinelli in support. I really like the Havertz took this on. Like th that's a guy that's a guy who's missed a lot of football and has decided now that he's back

You know, he's gonna he's gonna be really decisive in those moments, you know. Uh it's not the first time he scored against Chelsea, by the way, in an Arsenal shirt. He likes a goal against Chelsea.

He really he alwa he always you can see on his face that he really likes against Chelsea as well. He doesn't just have a knack of scoring against Chelsea, but he really enjoys it. Mm-hmm. He really does and he really did. But it's a very well taken goal, isn't it? It's just Cool kind collected around the goalkeeper, rolls it in.

pandemonium, you know, the game is absolutely one hundred percent secure. But also I think, you know, uh to endure Which I think is a not unreasonable way of uh talking about the previous ninety six minutes to endure those ninety six minutes, but then to have that moment at the end. to sort of crown your your pathway to Wembley I think is just really nice. Yeah, it is. I d look like you said, a nil nil, we'd have all been happy with a nil nil, uh but it's nice to have that moment of, you know

The shoulders come down, you know it's done, it's sealed and uh and you get a moment to to celebrate as well. Celebrate a goal, see the ball hit the back of the net and I think uh you know, this last this next few months uh until the end of the season, uh I think Kai Havertz hopefully could could be huge for Arsenal. And I think we've really, really missed him. And as you said, to

It looked, it felt like a player. I wondered, you know, as the ball arrives with him, you see Martinelli there, what's he gonna do? Is is he gonna wait and wait for Sanchez and lay it off? That looked like excuse me. That look like a player who has missed scoring goals and is really determined to have an impact and get on the end of things and score goals. Yeah. Uh I think you you don't often see

big emotions from Kai Havertz, you know, when he scores. I think lots of players will go mad. Kai Havertz is usually sort a jog into the corner and a bit of a grin. Uh I thought considering the how much the game actually meant, the the celebration against Kyrat already felt like a big sort of release from him. Mm-hmm. Uh Of it must be a a huge weight off your shoulders, you know, after so long back.

I think you can return to playing again, but you probably don't really feel like you're actually back and actually helping the team the way that you want to until you're having a bit of an actual impact that you can see and feel. And for an attacking player that means goals. And yeah, he he took it brilliantly. Uh a player who

As a centre forward, the the biggest criticism probably has been his ability to finish moves off when he gets in front of goal. I think Kai Havertz you can you can't question the work, right? the the ability to hold the ball up and bring others into play, the movement, the question if there's been a question has has often been right, but when a chance falls to him in the box, is he gonna finish it? And Here we are, he's up front for

What twenty five minutes, thirty minutes with the with the added time nearly. Uh he gets one chance and he takes it absolutely brilliantly. His uh yeah, weight off his shoulders.

And I think hopefully a a sign of things to come because if Kai Havertz can stay fit and play regularly up front then it adds something that we've definitely been missing over the past few months. Yeah, that is for sure. I mean it's a couple of goals and an assist. in the the few games that he has been back so far. So you know, there is A lot of football this week too. Well yeah. Taking it slow with him over the past like month

after he came on against Portsmouth and he and he looked quite tidy that day. Mm-hmm. Um and then, you know, I think last week we were talking about Or how is there a is he really fit? Is he ready to play? And then suddenly in the space of a week now he's He's played what? Sort of a game and a half's worth of football. A huge, huge boost.

I mean you could forgive a guy who's been out for that length of time for taking a while to get back to well, I think he probably is still trying to get back up to speed and proper match fitness and all of those things, but In the meantime, to be actually producing goals and assists and im impacting games in the way that he is is a very positive thing, right? Yeah. And in l in light of especially in light of the

the Mickel Marino injury. I think you know, if Merino was injured, uh was was available still, you're maybe talking about Havertz still having a bit more time to ease himself in, you know, you've got Yokarez and Jesus up front, uh you've got Merino and Rice and Odegaard and Ezir midfield. Now? Well, we don't have Merino.

Erdegaard has a a little niggle that kept him out the last uh the game last night and and we don't know what that's gonna look like. Mhm. We've got a midweek game after midweek game after midweek game, uh you know, on top of all the busy weekends. There there are a lot of minutes they're gonna have to be shared and yeah, with Merino out, with Erdegaard carrying something, uh yeah, there's every chance that Havertz is is back involved again at the weekend and it'll be uh four games.

Uh in the space of a few of what we have. ten days for him. Uh so it's it's important, you know, that he's not just fit and available, but actually like you say, ready to have an impact. So obviously reaching the final is the aim. When you get to this stage of a competition, you know, it

You've got to get there. You've got to get yourselves over the line. And we've done that, so you know, congratulations to the team and to the manager. But I think as well, you know, it goes a little bit beyond this season, a bit beyond beating Chelsea. You know, you always want to beat Chelsea. Because in the past we have had some semifinal disappointments.

I think we're always looking to see, you know, where this team is making progress. Are we doing better than we did before? So I think there's maybe a l a little psychological aspect to this game as well, or to these two games against Chelsea where You know, the the the ambition is obvious when you get to a semifinal, it's to get to the final, but there was some baggage.

uh that came with being in a semi final again and, you know, hopefully, you know, it is part of uh the progress that we see result in in tangible things, but, you know, it would have been Would have been another big question mark, wouldn't it, had we not come through these two ties as as well as we did. Yeah, we've lost the we've been knocked out of the cups over the past few years almost every time we've faced one of the other top teams in England. Liverpool.

in this competition and the FA Cup, Man City in the FA Cup, uh Manchester United. in the FA Cup that we Newcastle last year. Maybe not not quite the the weight of some of those names, but uh but a team that finished in the top four last season and and won this trophy. We've sort of fallen at that hurdle in the Champions League against Bayern and PSG. It feels like when we've played the really top teams, Real Madrid accepted maybe last year.

Uh in the cup competitions we've not found a way, whether it's been tight or in the case of Newcastle le last season not tight. We'll just not find a way to get through. Um and it you know, as a fan, I'm sure for the players, I'm sure for Michel Arteta, it plays on your mind a little bit that you've not fortunate the number of finals we've seen our team in, uh, the number of trophies we've seen our team win. Mm-hmm. Um y but you know, I think you know, even when it wasn't

the way everyone wanted it to be at times under Arsen Wenger. There were still finals. There were still semifinals. There were still finals. There were still cups along the way um after a a bit of a wait for one. And it's been a really long time now. Uh six years since the final eight since a final with any well, I mean, we played one in Baku, eight since a final at Wembley and and a final that really many fans could attend.

Uh Yeah, of course, twenty twenty there were there were there were no fans. Twenty twenty there were no fans. Uh Baku the the the the year before there were few fans because it was few fans because it was in Azerbaijan and hardly anyone could get there. uh and it cost an arm and a leg and and weeks and weeks of time of travelling and enough work and everything. Hardly anyone could make it all the way to Baku.

Uh nobody could get to Wembley six years ago. You know, it's it's eight years. It's eight years since Arsenal played a final and half the stadium was there decked out in red and white, ready to watch Arsenal compete for a trophy over the course of ninety minutes. Uh that's uh considering the journey we've been on with Mikel Arteta over the last six years and we've come really close to achieving really, really big things, these cops

mean a lot to us still. You know, the Epic Cup obviously more but but this one too, when you get to this stage you it's a trophy and it's a day at Wembley where you get to see your team compete for a trophy and hopefully lift a trophy. and I think the players more than anything, the players need it. The players need that That albatross around the neck, th that that needs to be gotten rid of, the all these all this

Brilliant football at times, maybe not so much this season. Uh all this Brilliant defensive work. All the points that we've gathered in the Premier League over the past few years, at the end of the day, nobody's got a medal. There's nothing to show for it. William Saliba's not played in a final for Arsenal. Gabriel hasn't played in a final for Arsenal.

Declan Rice, Bacallo Sacca, none of these players, not a single one of them. Uh I think Saka was the only player at the club who was in the squad when we played Chelsea in the uh in the final six in the FA Cup final six years as well that I didn't get off the bench. Uh if you look at the lineup from the the final in this competition eight years ago when we last made the final with this competition against Man City who will probably play in this one, uh it's

Hard to believe that just eight years ago that was an Arsenal eleven. Uh it this is about time, uh it's long, long overdue that these players get the chance to play in a final and have earned the chance to play in a final for Arsenal and to Have a day to celebrate'cause, you know, we've we've had a lot of wins over the last few years. We've picked up a hell of a lot of points. We've scored a lot of goals and there's been loads of clean sheets.

But as fans with this team we've not had a day to celebrate a piece of silverware and now finally again we have the opportunity to do that. I I think it is big from that perspective as well, you know, because it was something Arteta was asked about uh in the pre game press conference was that obviously winning the the FA Cup in twenty twenty was great.

But that was not the world we thought it would be. At that point the world was a very different place and like you say there were only a few journalists allowed in, there were no fans allowed in.

It's a very different experience, isn't it? You know, there is something um when you win a trophy, there's something so communal about it, you know, that you're celebrating, um with the other fans around you, you can feel that connection between the fans and the team, the cell you know, the trophy lift, all of that kind of stuff, which I've been

A half full Wembley as loud as it was when it was full. Exactly. Everybody having a great hour or so. I've I've been there and I've been very lucky to be there to see Arsenal lift some uh FA Cups at at Wembley. And it's an amazing thing to experience as a fan, um, but it's also, I'm sure, an amazing thing for the players to experience with the fan.

Uh and I I think there is something there in what you're saying about the the connections that we have or the connection that we have with this team, it hasn't manifested itself in that that moment, that experience that

You know, I think they've worked very hard to try and achieve, but have come uh a little bit too short in a couple of competitions i in recent years. But that sense, you know, which is part of how we all feel about this season, is that it w we want them to succeed and we want them to win and we want to see them lift trophies because

Yeah, that's what it's all about. That's what football's all about, winning things and winning trophies and and all that. But there is something a bit more than that as well. Like it feels like that. that moment, that occasion that really solidifies that connection between player and fans is overdue, right?

Absolutely. And like let's not let's not go cra like this isn't the moment that we should wait for. Uh the uh the twenty second of March It cannot deliver the the moment of salvation that we've all been waiting for. It cannot satisfy us this season. It will not satisfy the players. Absolutely not. There's no doubt about that. Nobody is gonna be playing the League Cup final, uh, and and hopefully win the League Cup final. I think right job done. Uh

it has to kick on to something else. And we're all aware of that, they're all aware of that. But to have a day where we get the opportunity to Just celebrate. Not worry about what the other score was or is the goal difference enough? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or and all of that. And we're one nil up and there's fifteen minutes to go and

Yeah, we we get over the line but it's like, Oh Jesus, if we play like that next week. No, it w there will be no if we play like that next week. If we get over the line like we did last night or like we have in some of the league games this season, it'll be right now we've got a trophy in our hands and now we all get to have a party. uh this it's not the moment that we're all waiting for, but it's a moment. And these things we've waited I'm I'm certainly one of those fans that

you know, in the earlier rounds I I can very happily leave it. I've very happily watched the w you know, watch a lot of the younger players play. I w I was raised on the Arsen Venga era and seeing Sanchez Watt and Jay Simpson get a run out in the league cup and Carlos Vela chipping Sheffield United goalkeepers and Jack Wilshear coming on and and exciting everybody. Uh th that's the leak up kind of to me in my head still.

But when you get to Wembley and you get the chance to win something, I think it's six years waiting for a trophy, uh s you know, as I say, eight years with a final with a lot of Arsenal fans there, nine since we won a final with a lot of Arsenal fans there. nothing at Wembley and and with a trophy on the line at this stage can be taken for granted. And uh you know, it's we've reached that that point where, you know, this team, we know this team has been great.

But if this team doesn't start winning things, it will never be considered great and it they won't be remembered. They you we we've now got uh a great opportunity to to win this one, Declan Rice did an interview with Sky Sports recently, uh before the first leg. Uh I think it was a before the league game though it was before the first leg. He he sat down and it's one of these sort of big interviews they do pre match and he I think it was with Jamie Rednapp and

And he talked about this competition, how excited everyone is. And he talked about talking to Raheem Sterling last season where he was at the club and Sterling talking about Man City winning three or four four four of these I think in a row and saying that lifting that trophy in February back then, the finals in March this time around, but lifting that trophy in February and then multiple times going on to win the league that it gave them something. It gave them a a little kick.

For that run in, for the last year. A couple of months of the season. And I think, you know, if Raheem Sterling's been in in that dressing room last year telling players that then These players will feel that as well. These players obviously I think as fans certainly when we talk about the nerves that have been in the stadium at times this season that frustration, the the disappointment that we've maybe not been a bit more convincing and clinical and dominant at times.

uh it's all attached to this the fact that we've been good but we haven't got over the line and I think this is Not to be underestimated, that if the players go out there and and win this one, then that will give them the feeling too, okay, we're we're on to something. We are getting over the line. Yeah. We are making progress. And you know, I think you saw that in the way they celebrated last night, the the the team that Arteta picked.

uh again, uh and then the way that the players celebrated. They really, really want this and Whether it's important or not psychologically, if they believe it it's important, it becomes important. Well that's exact that was always my contention when people you you get to the business end of this competition and people are like, Ah, fuck it, you know, d focus on the Premier League which I get, I understand.

That's the one we all want, but I think we're not going to be able to For these players who have come close, there is huge benefit if they can win this final. to sort of going, right, at last we've won something. It's not the the only thing we wanna win. It's not the biggest thing we wanna win. We're now super focused on winning

the Premier League or who knows the Champions League, or maybe both, you know, let's get greedy here. But you know, that that is the way that they will see it. But you can't tell me, you cannot convince me that there will not be a benefit to these players and the manager, and maybe even the fans as well, in terms of our belief, you know, in what this team can do in the final part of the season if we've got a trophy under our belts after so long, you know. Arteta said I think after the game

the best vitamins we can have are uh the ones that take us to the final, something like that, right?'Cause, you know, there's a lot of effort gone into it. But but that sense of Losing legs are tired legs, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When you win and and mines. And mines. Absolutely. Absolutely. So there's huge benefit to doing what we did in these two legs against Chelsea.

And hopefully, um, you know, it will uh be a great day out at Wembley for everybody who's gonna be lucky enough to be there and these players can lift that trophy and have that moment and then, you know, kick on and see what Uh what we can do in the rest of of the season. So

Listen, I think we've pretty much covered everything there, to be honest. The question is like How will that impact what we do at the weekend against Sunderland? It's Wednesday, but we've got a couple of days to think about that and we'll record our preview podcast over on Patreon as we normally do on a Friday and look ahead to that game uh against Sunderland. On Saturday for now though, Lewis, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much indeed. Cheers, Andrew. Thanks.

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Thank you very much indeed to Lewis. You can find him on Blue Sky. He is at lgambros.bsky.social at lgambros.bsky.social. And Lewis, of course, as I said, is the co-host on our Premier League preview podcasts. Which we do every weekend for all of our Premier League games and also all the other big games in the Cups and the Champions League, et cetera, et cetera, as well.

So you can join myself and Lewis on Friday to talk about Sunderland at home. That's what's next for this Arsenal team as we park Wembley, just put it to one side for the time being. We'll return to that, of course, in due course, but there's a lot more to do in the Premier League. Starting this weekend with Sunderland at home and you can join us on Patreon for that. Patreon dot com forward slash arsplug. Right

I'm gonna leave it there, get this podcast out to everybody. Thank you so much for listening, thank you for being with us, thank you for enjoying that first half of the show where we didn't do anything in the end though. I think it turned out alright. So again, thanks for being here. Thanks for listening. And we will catch you on the next one. Until then, cheers. Bye-bye. Hi, dear nan yeah, great listen, thanks for taking the call.

No, they're fi uh no, they're better than fine. The family's great and how how's everything at your end? Great, great, listen, glad to hear it. I was just ringing to get in touch about you know Web of Palooza and You're the talk we're supposed to be going to, like all the big CEO guys are gonna be there, it's gonna be great, great, great. But listen, have you heard about this guy? Like I'm hearing through the back channel.

New philosophy's God about not doing anything at all is really making waves in the in the business, you know what I mean? Great, great, great. Yeah. I was just wondering, you know, if maybe that was something we could implement ourselves, you know. Take a bit of the hassle out of the day, you know what I'm saying? Great, great. So I was just wondering, you know, if maybe we could sit down over a flat white

And just sort of tease that out a bit, you know, see if that's something that we could we could put in place for ourselves, you know. By the way, Dearnan, was that yourself in the The files that you dare not mention, you know what I mean? Hello, Dernin. Yeah Diernan Well looks like he's hung up great. Crazy, great, great.

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